Author Topic: Cars, your thoughts and experiences  (Read 1466 times)

JupiterGreen

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Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« on: February 01, 2024, 09:38:17 AM »
I haven't been in the market for a new car in years, but I am now in need of a new car but I don't even know where to begin. I'm looking for something like a Honda or Toyota since those are the cars I've driven in the past. I'd like the new car to have low miles and I've got enough money saved for this purchase even if I were to purchase new. The crazy thing I am seeing right now is the new cars seem very close in price to used cars with the mileage I am looking for (about 20K miles or so on them).

What are your thoughts on Hondas and Toyotas these days? Are they still mustachian cars? Should I be looking at something else? My former car had none of the new safety features the newer ones have, so I definitely want to upgrade there. I don't care what it looks like, but I want it to run for a long time, be safe, and be good on gas. I have only had a few cars in my life, I tend to buy a car and run it to the ground. I've always bought used cars, but would consider buying new if it made sense.

I would appreciate any and all thoughts and experiences you have on this topic.

innkeeper77

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2024, 09:48:47 AM »
I would get a new car over a 20k mile used one, unless there was a used model you wanted that was lo longer available new, such as if you wanted a slightly older Prius because the brand new ones are less practical. I personally wouldn't even consider most used cars until they had at least 50k miles due to the odd way the prices work lately.

Personal preference, I would stick with Toyota. Honda is a bit more tech focused and a bit less reliability focused. Of course, for the right price, anything works, and Honda is still a great brand. I personally wouldn't get anything else (Lexus or Acura also work because they are just Toyotas and Hondas. Unlikely to be the right price but if you happen to see the right deal, they should be just as reliable)

What is your use case? Just a runabout sedan? Long road trips? Do you commute? What models are you looking at?

The answer for "what car should I get" when you just want an appliance is always Corolla. I'd personally add the Prius to that as well. Note, I do not own either of those cars, but we do have a Honda and a Toyota and are happy with both, but don't like the Honda as much due to some odd design choices.

JupiterGreen

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2024, 10:06:21 AM »
I would get a new car over a 20k mile used one, unless there was a used model you wanted that was lo longer available new, such as if you wanted a slightly older Prius because the brand new ones are less practical. I personally wouldn't even consider most used cars until they had at least 50k miles due to the odd way the prices work lately.

Personal preference, I would stick with Toyota. Honda is a bit more tech focused and a bit less reliability focused. Of course, for the right price, anything works, and Honda is still a great brand. I personally wouldn't get anything else (Lexus or Acura also work because they are just Toyotas and Hondas. Unlikely to be the right price but if you happen to see the right deal, they should be just as reliable)

What is your use case? Just a runabout sedan? Long road trips? Do you commute? What models are you looking at?

The answer for "what car should I get" when you just want an appliance is always Corolla. I'd personally add the Prius to that as well. Note, I do not own either of those cars, but we do have a Honda and a Toyota and are happy with both, but don't like the Honda as much due to some odd design choices.

Thank you so much. Interesting, I feel the same way about the design choices in my Honda and also preferred my past Corollas over the Honda I own now. I commute about 20miles (10 miles each way) 5 x a week and do go on at least one long excursions (1200 or so miles) a year. Otherwise I'm not big on just driving around. I combine things like grocery trips with my commute. I don't really care about makes, models, the color, or the overall look, but I don't like how low my current Honda Civic rides. I'm not a "car person", I see it more as a tool rather than an extension of myself. I just want it to be reliable.

ETA:

At my local dealership here is a comparable
2024 Toyota Carolla LE sedan new $23,859
2023 Toyota Carolla LE sedan with 21,200 miles on it is $20,950

That is a $2,909 difference. The 2024 will have higher insurance, but both will have sales tax based on purchase price. Not sure if there are other things to consider since I've never bought new before. I don't know if safety or anything else is any different between the two years.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2024, 10:16:33 AM by JupiterGreen »

jrhampt

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2024, 10:50:51 AM »
If you're looking for a used car, it's better to look for an older car with low mileage than a one-year old car with low mileage.  Yes, a 2023 model with low miles is still going to be expensive.  I'd look more in the 2017-2020 range.  I also like a car with mileage <=50k, but you could probably find an older Prius, for example, with low miles that would not be very expensive.

JupiterGreen

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2024, 12:13:51 PM »
If you're looking for a used car, it's better to look for an older car with low mileage than a one-year old car with low mileage.  Yes, a 2023 model with low miles is still going to be expensive.  I'd look more in the 2017-2020 range.  I also like a car with mileage <=50k, but you could probably find an older Prius, for example, with low miles that would not be very expensive.

Thank you! For the Toyotas I'd ideally like the second generation safety sense that Toyota started with the 2018 models. But I'll consider 2017 since they do have some of the safety features I want (my current car has zero of those so it would be a step up). I'll add the Prius to my list. The pre-2020 cars with low mileage are difficult to find around where I live. Have you (or anyone) ever had experience with those online car places like Carvana? Thanks again, my car is totaled and I feel despondent about the whole thing because I was planning on driving it much longer. But life promises us nothing. I feel lucky and appreciative to have money saved and for this community where I can ask questions.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2024, 12:20:32 PM »
The Corolla now offers a hybrid trim, which is a Prius in a cheaper, less flashy wrapper. They start under $25k.

If that sits too low, you might also consider a Ford Maverick. They're priced nearly the same as the Corolla and offer an available hybrid system that's nearly identical to the Toyota hybrids. You get a 5 passenger small truck instead of a sedan. Fuel economy suffers, but practicality improves. Depends on priorities and what you want in a vehicle.

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=47339&id=47364
« Last Edit: February 01, 2024, 12:26:44 PM by Paper Chaser »

JungYo

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2024, 12:35:06 PM »
Thank you! For the Toyotas I'd ideally like the second generation safety sense that Toyota started with the 2018 models. But I'll consider 2017 since they do have some of the safety features I want (my current car has zero of those so it would be a step up). I'll add the Prius to my list. The pre-2020 cars with low mileage are difficult to find around where I live. Have you (or anyone) ever had experience with those online car places like Carvana? Thanks again, my car is totaled and I feel despondent about the whole thing because I was planning on driving it much longer. But life promises us nothing. I feel lucky and appreciative to have money saved and for this community where I can ask questions.

I look at cars online quite frequently, a weird hobby I suppose. What I have seen from places like Carvana, Carmax et al is you really need to look at the free Carfax report (if they have them). And I am not just talking about accident history...

2 indicators of whether a used car is worthwhile are:
1. Service records. I would buy, and have bought, cars with higher mileage that have complete service records vs lower mileage cars with spotty or no service records. Granted not all services are reported 100% of the time, but when I see a car that has been back to the dealer every 5k miles for service, vs a car that has a JiffyLube oil change 1X a year, it's a no-brainer. Even moreso if the mfgr warranty is still in effect.
2. Where is or was the car used? I live in Central NC, we get very little snow or ice so road salt or brine application to the roads is infrequent/rare. I have seen vehicles I'm interested in but their registration history has been from snowy/road-salt areas. I will not consider a car from one of those areas unless it is 1-2 yrs old (with service records); same goes for cars on the actual (east) coast.
    It is not body rust I am concerned about, rather corrosion of fasteners (nuts and bolts), underbody & chassis etc. Maintenance and repairs become more costly as corrosion increases.
    Conversely, if you live on an area of road salt use, you may be delighted to find a car from central NC, Tucson, or wherever.

I am 100% averse to any vehicle with an accident on record. Perhaps this is irrational, but the depth of damage is not clearly reported and the quality of repairs, from personal experience, is pretty bad.

You needn't be a car person to digest this info: scan the report, the service records will either be there or they won't; note the intervals. If you're buying locally, same deal - it's even worth getting a temporary Carfax account to vet the vehicle.

I have not bought from an online service and never will as I need to spend time with the vehicle and get a feel for it before plunking down coin. I believe if you are looking at car as an appliance and do some basic due diligence, you should come out all right.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2024, 12:55:54 PM »
Sounds like you've probably narrowed it down to a Corolla, Civic, or Prius. I might pick among these options primarily based on the Edmunds Total Cost of Ownership calculator. Your hybrid vs. non-hybrid calculation needs to factor in the number of miles you drive and your desires to be less exposed to fluctuating petroleum prices.

Used cars are still stupid expensive compared to in the past, so I will not begrudge you for buying new. However the out of pocket costs to pay a dealer will be much higher than the asking price of a used car from an individual. Dealers add on all sorts of fees and "services" and "dealer options" you have to factor in. OTOH, dealers should be expected to negotiate more, since they have either ripped off somebody on a trade in or have a healthy margin to work with on new cars anyway. They make most of their money off of financing so you're looking for a dealer willing to make a $1,000 profit on a quick low maintenance deal. They usually make $5k or more so you're sniping for someone with a quote to meet.

The goal is to pay for as few fees, services, and options as possible. This means the LAST thing you should do is walk onto a dealer lot.

Instead, compose an email to 3-5 local dealerships saying something like:

"I am a cash buyer looking for a new 2023 or 2024 [insert model here]. I want the lowest-priced base model with absolutely zero features or dealer add-ons. That means no floor mats, bumper applique, pinstripes, cleaning fee, gas tank fill up, protective films or sprays, warranty extensions, insurances, memberships, subscriptions, etc. I want it in [color] and I do not want a dealer logo painted or stickered onto the back. I may be interested in vehicles with minor lot damage for the right discount. Please send me a final invoice with the amount I would need to bring as a cashier's check. I am asking multiple dealerships to do the same, so please send your last, best, and final offer with all taxes and title fees included. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to do business with you."

Then after ignoring the pleas to have a conversation or visit the dealership, do the following:
0) gather insurance quotes and select an insurance carrier
1) collect your responses,
2) find the cheapest offer,
3) sanity check the offer against MSRP,
4) send follow up questions about whether the remaining items they left on the invoice can be removed or negotiate them away,
5) negotiate details about payment and delivery, remembering to budget for taxes which can be thousands of dollars
6) execute the deal, being careful to read every line and catch the reoccurring charges and subscriptions they write in at the last minute, and making it known that if anything is different than what was offered (e.g. they put their dealer logo on the back) you will request a refund. Also add the car to your insurance and property tax accounts.
7) take delivery of your new vehicle a week or so later, again being careful not to agree to any new charges or fees. Don't be surprised or offended if it has 100-200 miles or so on it.
8) make arrangements to get your license plate, if not already done during the dealer's process (research laws in your state)
9) drive the car like an absolute grandma for the first 3,000 miles to help the rings and valves properly seat, warm up the engine for 4-5 minutes before driving for the first 3,000 miles, and change the oil and filter at 1,000 miles and again at 3,000 miles to get rid of metal shavings from the engine's break in period.
10) be very careful driving and parking, because people are more likely to damage new cars due to being unfamiliar with them
11) consider applying spray cans of rubberized undercoating to prevent rust and make the car permanently quieter while the underside is still clean. You might spend $100 on spray cans to do it all, but it's worth it if you plan to keep the car for a decade at a time and/or live in a region with road salt.

jrhampt

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2024, 01:41:05 PM »
I didn't know there was a Corolla hybrid less expensive than the Prius!  Thanks for the info!

Dee18

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2024, 03:15:46 PM »
Six months ago I purchased a Honda CRV hybrid to replace my 19 year old Honda Accord. I  love it.  I drove several Toyotas and Hondas during my search for a new car, as I have owned both.  Maintenance of my Accord over the years was reasonable and during Covid I, for the first time, did a real repair replacing a small piece in the gear shift that had worn out.  My key reasons for choosing the Honda this time over any Toyota were:  smooth and quiet ride, fit--the seat adjust perfectly for me, and primarily that my partner and I felt ill in the new Toyotas.  I got headaches and he got nauseous time after time.  We're pretty sure it was chemicals in the upholstery, which some Subarus are also now using.  So my advice is to be sure to spend some time in a Toyota before buying it, especially on a hot, sunny day. 

pdxvandal

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2024, 09:07:45 PM »
I've read and been told by friends they love their Mazdas, notably the CX-3 (smaller hatchback) and CX-5 (midsize SUV). The CX-5 is supposed to have superior driving ability and performance over a Honda CRV.  I don't own a Mazda, but I might be in the car market in 1-2 years and would definitely consider it, in addition to Toyota and Honda.

jrhampt

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2024, 05:30:18 AM »
We replaced two elderly cars with a Honda CRV hybrid last year and have liked it so far.  Good mpg and the most comfortable car we have ever owned.  The other contender was the Toyota RAV4 hybrid, but there were none to be found, so we never even got to test drive any of those.  The CRV is supposed to be a bit more comfortable and the RAV4 is supposed to be a bit more fuel efficient. 

Monocle Money Mouth

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2024, 05:30:54 AM »
I've read and been told by friends they love their Mazdas, notably the CX-3 (smaller hatchback) and CX-5 (midsize SUV). The CX-5 is supposed to have superior driving ability and performance over a Honda CRV.  I don't own a Mazda, but I might be in the car market in 1-2 years and would definitely consider it, in addition to Toyota and Honda.

I think Mazdas are a solid choice too. My wife bought a Mazda CX-30 in July of 2022 and it's been trouble free so far. All she has had to do is oil changes, tire rotations, clean and lube the brakes, and a wheel alignment after hitting a pothole. She bought that to replace a 2012 Honda Fit and it is a huge step up in terms of comfort and power. It's much quieter and less harrowing merging into interstate traffic.

Another nice thing about Mazda is they are pretty conservative with their engine and transmission technology. The base engine and transmission on most of their product line is a 2.5L 4 cylinder attached to a 6 speed automatic. The engine is directed injected, so you might have some carbon build up on the valves if you don't drive very often. But you also won't be dealing with turbo chargers or two sets of fuel injectors. I know some Toyota engines are direct injected and port injected to help avoid carbon build up. Honda has been shifting to tiny displacement engines with turbo chargers. The numbers on paper look good, but I'm skeptical they will last for 10-15 years without problems.

The only thing I don't like about Mazda's automatic transimssion is it's not serviceable. I think I read you technically can service it, but they don't make it easy and there is no dipstick for checking fluid levels.

BiggerFishToFI

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2024, 07:06:30 AM »
The car market is strange these days.

I'm currently in the market for a mini-van (Toyota Sienna), and it seems the two best options are - buy new at MSRP w/ no add-ons, warranty, etc. or buy used w/ >75k miles and 6-7 years or older.

There are 2021 models with 50k miles that are only a couple grand cheaper than brand new. I get the feeling the market is rapidly shifting however, if you are willing to wait another year you may have many more options and deals on the used market (warning: speculation).

Good luck!

neo von retorch

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2024, 07:28:48 AM »
I've read and been told by friends they love their Mazdas, notably the CX-3 (smaller hatchback) and CX-5 (midsize SUV). The CX-5 is supposed to have superior driving ability and performance over a Honda CRV.  I don't own a Mazda, but I might be in the car market in 1-2 years and would definitely consider it, in addition to Toyota and Honda.

We're down to one car but when we had two we had a 2014 CX-5 and 2015 Mazda 3. We sold the 3 (since I barely drive) and sold the CX-5 to a young family member (the used car market has been brutal!) We have a 2023 CX-5 now. Love to drive them. When we were test-driving, other cars felt more floaty - some people might like that, but we prefer the direct feel / control you have with a Mazda. As mentioned, the 2.5L + 6-speed is in almost all of their cars (except the Miata and the newest larger SUVs), tried and tested, and not really messed with. Our center console is not a touch screen - just a lovely control wheel (with useful dedicated buttons) that is thoughtfully laid out. Buttons for HVAC. Buttons on the steering wheel. None of that capacitive stuff!

One complaint which we didn't have with the 2014 but we do with the 2023 is that when the transmission is cold, the shifts are a bit more abrupt and the engine sounds noisier during those shifts. This tends to happen much more when my spouse drives - so I think just going softer on the throttle "fixes" it. (Or wait 30 seconds for the car to warm up, which I do and spouse does not!)

These newer Mazda's have a subscription-free satellite connection that lets you do a few things from your phone like check the lock status, lock/unlock, and remote start. Some people don't like that sort of connectivity, but I appreciate the features.

(Still, if you don't have a good reason to get brand new, a 3-6 year old car can be an awesome deal as the used car market calms down.)

yachi

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2024, 10:17:12 AM »
You're looking to put 7,000 miles per year on this car.  Even if you're putting 10,000 miles per year on it, that falls way short from what it's been designed for.  So I think based on the mileage you're at, that you should open yourself up to higher starting mileage. 

I think the models you're looking at should be fairly trouble free for 15 years and 150,000 miles.  You're on track to get to only 105,000 miles in 15 years, so I don't think it makes a difference if you buy one with 20,000 miles on it or 40,000 miles.

JupiterGreen

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2024, 11:03:27 AM »
Some more info:
My car was totaled so unfortunately I don’t have the luxury of time. I’m in a rental now, so I want to find something relatively quickly. The city I live in is small and there is only 1 Toyota dealership. But if I drive 2 hours there are more. I don’t have any expectation of what my next car looks like, but I do want to buy a small car and take advantage of the new safety features.

@Paper Chaser
Thank you I will look into the hybrids

@JungYo
This information is gold, thank you! I have started looking at those Carfax reports for these indications. What do you think about cars that were previously rental cars? I also want to buy relatively local, but there isn’t much inventory here.

@ChpBstrd
What a great strategy, I will try that with the regional dealerships if I go the new car direction! I didn’t know all of that, so thank you for your thoughtful and thorough reply.

@Dee18
Okay this is totally new news to me, ugh I hate the smell of new cars as is! I will definitely note all of that in my search.

@jrhampt
The CRV is super fancy, my sibling has one. But I have no need for a larger car. It is just my partner and me. I rarely have people in the back seats and don’t have any big space or hauling needs so smaller is better in my case.

@Monocle Money Mouth
Thank you I will look at the Mazdas! When you say you cannot service it, I’m guessing you mean change your own oil. I never do this and probably won’t start given my schedule. Maybe I’ll learn to change my oil once I retire.

@BiggerFishToFI
Yeah, the market is insane. I wish I could wait but my car is totaled.

@neo von retorch
Thanks I will look at the Mazdas too.

@yachi
Thanks for the math, that’s a great point! I have only had 3 cars in my life. This is going to be my fourth and I’m nearing 50 yo. My thoughts are that this will be my FIRE car (I expect to retire in the next 5 years) so I was leaning towards a newer one for that reason. But I could get a “stop gap” car. Looking at the used car market here is brutal and I need something ASAP unfortunately as my car was just totaled. Boo.

SunnyDays

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2024, 11:45:08 AM »
You might want to consider a Honda HRV.  It’s very similar to a Toyota Matrix, which I currently drive and will be looking into one when I need to replace mine.  It’s a hatchback with lots of cargo space, good mileage and pretty compact.  They’ve been around a while so used should be available.


Monocle Money Mouth

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2024, 11:47:08 AM »


@Monocle Money Mouth
Thank you I will look at the Mazdas! When you say you cannot service it, I’m guessing you mean change your own oil. I never do this and probably won’t start given my schedule. Maybe I’ll learn to change my oil once I retire.


I actually mean changing the transmission fluid. It's something you would normally do every 50,000  miles on most cars. The interval can vary by manufacturer. Mazda essentially sealed the transmission and said it's good for the life of the car.

Oil changes look trivial on the CX-30, but I haven't actually done it. She has a shop do the oil change since it needs a tire rotation at that time too.  I used to rotate her tires and change her oil when she had the Fit, but the CX-30 doesn't have any easy way to get all 4 wheels off the ground using jack stands and a jack. I don't want to have to do the walk of shame if I accidentally damage the car trying to get it off the ground.

GuitarStv

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2024, 11:55:47 AM »
You get a 5 passenger small truck instead of a sedan. Fuel economy suffers, but practicality improves.

I'd argue that practicality also suffers.

jrhampt

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2024, 12:24:50 PM »
You get a 5 passenger small truck instead of a sedan. Fuel economy suffers, but practicality improves.

I'd argue that practicality also suffers.

Agreed.  For the very occasional times when we need a pickup truck, it's easy to rent one for a couple hours from Lowe's or Home Depot. 

yachi

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2024, 12:27:50 PM »
@yachi
Thanks for the math, that’s a great point! I have only had 3 cars in my life. This is going to be my fourth and I’m nearing 50 yo. My thoughts are that this will be my FIRE car (I expect to retire in the next 5 years) so I was leaning towards a newer one for that reason. But I could get a “stop gap” car. Looking at the used car market here is brutal and I need something ASAP unfortunately as my car was just totaled. Boo.

I'm not sure what your plans look like after FIRE, but I barely put 5,000 miles on one vehicle, and sometimes less than 10,000 miles on the other.  The 5K mile vehicle looks a bit useless with its 19 year age and mileage of less than 85,000 miles, but it's a truck we use to haul kayaks, camping equipment, and as a second vehicle.  I was really shocked how little mileage we put on them after FIRE.  Two drivers and 4 kids spread out among 3 or 4 different schools depending on the year mean we really don't want to go down to 1 vehicle.

neo von retorch

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2024, 12:30:36 PM »


@Monocle Money Mouth
Thank you I will look at the Mazdas! When you say you cannot service it, I’m guessing you mean change your own oil. I never do this and probably won’t start given my schedule. Maybe I’ll learn to change my oil once I retire.


I actually mean changing the transmission fluid. It's something you would normally do every 50,000  miles on most cars. The interval can vary by manufacturer. Mazda essentially sealed the transmission and said it's good for the life of the car.

Oil changes look trivial on the CX-30, but I haven't actually done it. She has a shop do the oil change since it needs a tire rotation at that time too.  I used to rotate her tires and change her oil when she had the Fit, but the CX-30 doesn't have any easy way to get all 4 wheels off the ground using jack stands and a jack. I don't want to have to do the walk of shame if I accidentally damage the car trying to get it off the ground.

Haven't done an oil change on the 2023, but the 2014/2015 both had a plastic panel with 3 clips, easy to access downward facing drain plug (using a large hex/allen wrench to open), and easy to access downward facing oil filter - M108A or equivalent.)

Paper Chaser

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2024, 01:16:47 PM »
You get a 5 passenger small truck instead of a sedan. Fuel economy suffers, but practicality improves.

I'd argue that practicality also suffers.

The Maverick has more capability (3 inches more ground clearance than the Corolla), more passenger space (I'm 6'1" and have a family of 5. It's a tight squeeze in my mid sized sedan. We wouldn't physically fit in something smaller.), and can more easily haul a variety of things thanks to the very well thought out bed.

Last time I checked, the Corolla hybrid drivetrain was only available in the sedan body. And modern, small sedans are really only good for hauling a couple of normal sized people. The trunk openings are tiny, so even if you could theoretically fit something in the trunk, you might not be able to actually get it into the trunk. IF the Corolla hybrid was available in the hatchback body, then it would be far more practical in my opinion. Rear seat leg room might be fine for very small kids, but child seats, or taller people are going to be very uncomfortable. And there's the narrow width too of course, which means while you can technically fit 5 humans in the car, it had better not be for very long.

The Corolla hybrid is a very specialized vehicle. It's specialty is getting a couple of people around with great fuel efficiency. If you never haul more than a couple of people, or never leave paved roads, then it can be an excellent choice. It sounds like the OP fits into this category.

The Maverick is a more versatile vehicle. It can go more places and do more things. The price of that is reduced efficiency.
But it still gets 42mpg city and 33mpg highway. For somebody like the OP, who drives 7000 miles per year the fuel savings are something like $150/yr. For me, I feel like the increased versatility and interior space of the Maverick hybrid provide more value than the more specialized (and also excellent) Corolla hybrid even if it costs a bit more to operate.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2024, 01:26:16 PM by Paper Chaser »

GuitarStv

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2024, 01:30:49 PM »
You get a 5 passenger small truck instead of a sedan. Fuel economy suffers, but practicality improves.

I'd argue that practicality also suffers.

The Maverick has more capability (3 inches more ground clearance than the Corolla), more passenger space (I'm 6'1" and have a family of 5), and can more easily haul a variety of things thanks to the very well thought out bed.

Last time I checked, the Corolla hybrid was only available in the sedan body. And modern, small sedans are really only good for hauling a couple of normal sized people. The trunk openings are tiny, so even if you could theoretically fit something in the trunk, you might not be able to actually get it into the trunk. IF the Corolla hybrid was available in the hatchback body, then it would be far more practical in my opinion. Rear seat leg room might be fine for very small kids, but child seats, or taller people are going to be very uncomfortable. And there's the narrow width too of course, which means while you can technically fit 5 humans in the car, it had better not be for very long.

The Corolla hybrid is a very specialized vehicle. It's specialty is getting a couple of people around with great fuel efficiency. If you never haul more than a couple of people, or never leave paved roads, then it can be an excellent choice. It sounds like the OP fits into this category.

The Maverick is a more versatile vehicle. It can go more places and do more things. The price of that is reduced efficiency.
But it still gets 42mpg city and 33mpg highway. For somebody like the OP, who drives 7000 miles per year the fuel savings are something like $150/yr. For me, I feel like the increased versatility and interior space of the Maverick hybrid over the Corolla hybrid would be worth $150/yr. I consider the Maverick to provide more value than the more specialized (and also excellent) Corolla hybrid even if it costs a bit more to operate.

I have a 2005 Corolla.  No problems getting 12 2x4s in the trunk with the rear seat down.  No problems moving five normal sized adults (or two adults, a kid, and a dog which is our usual family setup) on multi-hour car trips.  I'm 6' with long legs and have no problems sitting in any seat in the back.  I regularly drive on dirt roads with our Corolla while visiting my dad's farm and have never had an issue with ground clearance.  We regularly drive through snow in the winter on paved roads and have never had issues with ground clearance.  It's much easier to drive around and park in the city than a gigantic truck.  It's much less likely to be stolen than a truck.  It's cheaper to insure than a truck.  It handles better on the road.  Tires are cheaper.

It's OK if you like trucks.  There might be a few isolated cases where someone needs some of the things you're talking about, but the truck is not as practical for most folks as a small car.

JungYo

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2024, 02:02:48 PM »
@JungYo
This information is gold, thank you! I have started looking at those Carfax reports for these indications. What do you think about cars that were previously rental cars? I also want to buy relatively local, but there isn’t much inventory here.

Personally, I will never (and have never) bought a former rental. Between how they are flogged driven and dubious maintenance practices of the agencies, to me it's not worth the risk.

Might be worth the 2-hr drive, especially if you can find a CPO model - these generally have had all services done, have no accidents, and are granted extended manufacturer warranty; at a price slightly cheaper than new. Or, just buy new - your posts indicate you keep yours cars a long time and take care of them, the few extra thousand could be worth peace of mind (this is our approach to my wife's vehicles, she tends to drive them 12-15 years).

Paper Chaser

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2024, 02:40:02 PM »

I have a 2005 Corolla.  No problems getting 12 2x4s in the trunk with the rear seat down.  No problems moving five normal sized adults (or two adults, a kid, and a dog which is our usual family setup) on multi-hour car trips.  I'm 6' with long legs and have no problems sitting in any seat in the back.  I regularly drive on dirt roads with our Corolla while visiting my dad's farm and have never had an issue with ground clearance.  We regularly drive through snow in the winter on paved roads and have never had issues with ground clearance.  It's much easier to drive around and park in the city than a gigantic truck.  It's much less likely to be stolen than a truck.  It's cheaper to insure than a truck.  It handles better on the road.  Tires are cheaper.

It's OK if you like trucks.  There might be a few isolated cases where someone needs some of the things you're talking about, but the truck is not as practical for most folks as a small car.



This Maverick is "gigantic" and expensive to operate? It's footprint is pretty similar to a Toyota Camry. It's a FWD, hybrid, unibody trucklet based on the Ford Escape. The bed can be loaded/unloaded by an average height woman standing on the ground. The base model has 17" steel wheels and 225/65/17 tires. The interior is mostly plastic and decidedly low tech. When it was introduced, it was the cheapest hybrid vehicle that you could buy new.

I think it's a pretty Mustachian vehicle if you're considering buying new, and there are less expensive used options now too.

I too have hauled dimensional lumber in a sedan by folding the seats down. It can be done (provided you don't have any passengers), but it honestly sucks. And no sedan is hauling home a piece of furniture for a reclamation project. Or sheet goods. Or helping friends/family move. There are less expensive ways to get around than the Maverick, but I think it can be a really compelling option for many people, including Mustachians depending on lifestyle

ChpBstrd

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2024, 03:50:16 PM »
My problem with Mavericks is the engines blowing up and the transmissions going out. Ford's quality is atrocious. I really wish someone made a good version of the Maverick.

Until it gets discontinued like every other Ford small vehicle that developed a bad reputation (Escort, focus, fiesta...) it will sit there discouraging other manufacturers from making something similar but better.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2024, 06:21:40 PM »
My problem with Mavericks is the engines blowing up and the transmissions going out. Ford's quality is atrocious. I really wish someone made a good version of the Maverick.

Until it gets discontinued like every other Ford small vehicle that developed a bad reputation (Escort, focus, fiesta...) it will sit there discouraging other manufacturers from making something similar but better.

Got any links/data? Ford's hybrid system is basically identical to Toyota's hybrid system. They shared a lot of tech with each other during development. A naturally aspirated, atkinson cycle engine paired to their eCVT transmission has been historically one of the most reliable and efficient powertrains made. Hybrid Fusions and Escapes are commonly used as taxis for their low cost of ownership and reliability.

The hybrid powertrain and low cost of entry are the unique features of the Maverick. If you get the non-hybrid, or start adding tons of bells/whistles, you might as well get a regular crossover, or the Hyundai Santa Cruz.

lucenzo11

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2024, 10:54:16 PM »
I will only buy from dealer or private seller. Any used car dealership or online nationwide seller like Carvana is nice in that they have variety, but they are going to make their money regardless and I always feel like I'm going to overpay.

If buying new from dealer, ChpBstrd's plan is best. I haven't tried it myself as I haven't bought a new car in over 10 years, but it is how I would do it in the future to try to avoid all the games the dealers play.

If buying used here's the basic strategy I would use; although it's tougher in a rural area and is tougher now with the weird car market pricing.
1. Go on facebook marketplace or craigslist, whichever one is more utilized in your area, find the make/model you want and target a car with over 50k miles and under 100k miles (could even go a bit higher if it's well maintained and is known for reliability). Anything under 50k miles and the prices will be too high for used and buying new may be better. Compare prices to KBB.
2. Contact sellers and arrange a test drive.
3. Do test drive. Look on youtube for videos on what to look for when doing a visual inspection of the car and what to look and listen for when driving.
4. Ask questions about ownership history, accident history, and maintenance records. Walk away from any car that was flooded.
5. If you still like it, ask if you can bring it to an auto shop to have a mechanic look at it unless you really know what you are doing. Any reasonable seller will probably let you do this, unless they have so many offers, but don't let urgency rush you into a bad purchase. Pay a trusted mechanic and have them tell you what they think.*
6. If you still like it, use info from mechanic and make offer. Even if the car is perfect, still offer lower as almost everyone will negotiate. Offer cash.
7. If deal is accepted, then you can arrange all the other stuff, like paperwork, payment, title transfer, etc. Always bring a friend to transactions or perform transaction at public transaction location. Some police departments have dedicated spots for this.

*In some cases you may need to make an offer before a mechanic looks at it. I've never put a deposit down, but you may want to arrange something like this to prevent the car being sold to someone else, although check with your state to see if they have any kind of forms or basic language you can use to make sure someone doesn't steal your deposit. If you do have to negotiate first, give an offer and say it's dependent on mechanic inspection.

As for specific cars, seems like you've locked in your options. I was going to suggest for your low regular mileage that an EV might make sense, but given the longer roadtrips, that kind of rules out an EV unless you are confident in the charging network.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2024, 11:30:45 AM »
My problem with Mavericks is the engines blowing up and the transmissions going out. Ford's quality is atrocious. I really wish someone made a good version of the Maverick.

Until it gets discontinued like every other Ford small vehicle that developed a bad reputation (Escort, focus, fiesta...) it will sit there discouraging other manufacturers from making something similar but better.

Got any links/data? Ford's hybrid system is basically identical to Toyota's hybrid system. They shared a lot of tech with each other during development. A naturally aspirated, atkinson cycle engine paired to their eCVT transmission has been historically one of the most reliable and efficient powertrains made. Hybrid Fusions and Escapes are commonly used as taxis for their low cost of ownership and reliability.

The hybrid powertrain and low cost of entry are the unique features of the Maverick. If you get the non-hybrid, or start adding tons of bells/whistles, you might as well get a regular crossover, or the Hyundai Santa Cruz.
https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/recall/recalls-and-faqs/23s27-escape-2020-2023-and-maverick-2022-2023-engine-failure-recall/
https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/recall/recalls-and-faqs/23s27-escape-2020-2023-and-maverick-2022-2023-engine-failure-recall/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYwhUmPLHbY
Essentially, the engine throws a rod frequently enough and blows hot oil under the hood often enough that it tends to catch on fire, especially since the truck keeps driving in hybrid mode. Their fix was to make it easier for the oil to drain on the ground when the engine blows. Also, all signs indicate Ford's 50+ year weakness in automatic transmissions continues in the Maverick, with plenty of transmission failures reported under 100k miles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiiGIu7byQ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YueVBNvrQXg
« Last Edit: February 04, 2024, 12:02:36 PM by ChpBstrd »

Paper Chaser

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2024, 08:46:13 AM »
My problem with Mavericks is the engines blowing up and the transmissions going out. Ford's quality is atrocious. I really wish someone made a good version of the Maverick.

Until it gets discontinued like every other Ford small vehicle that developed a bad reputation (Escort, focus, fiesta...) it will sit there discouraging other manufacturers from making something similar but better.

Got any links/data? Ford's hybrid system is basically identical to Toyota's hybrid system. They shared a lot of tech with each other during development. A naturally aspirated, atkinson cycle engine paired to their eCVT transmission has been historically one of the most reliable and efficient powertrains made. Hybrid Fusions and Escapes are commonly used as taxis for their low cost of ownership and reliability.

The hybrid powertrain and low cost of entry are the unique features of the Maverick. If you get the non-hybrid, or start adding tons of bells/whistles, you might as well get a regular crossover, or the Hyundai Santa Cruz.
https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/recall/recalls-and-faqs/23s27-escape-2020-2023-and-maverick-2022-2023-engine-failure-recall/
https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/recall/recalls-and-faqs/23s27-escape-2020-2023-and-maverick-2022-2023-engine-failure-recall/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYwhUmPLHbY
Essentially, the engine throws a rod frequently enough and blows hot oil under the hood often enough that it tends to catch on fire, especially since the truck keeps driving in hybrid mode. Their fix was to make it easier for the oil to drain on the ground when the engine blows. Also, all signs indicate Ford's 50+ year weakness in automatic transmissions continues in the Maverick, with plenty of transmission failures reported under 100k miles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiiGIu7byQ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YueVBNvrQXg

Thanks! I had missed the recalls for the ICE in the hybrids somehow. That's not a good look.

The guy with the failed transmission drives an FX4 trim level, so it uses the 2.0 ecoboost with the ZF 8F35 transmission. That's much different than the eCVT used in the hybrids, which is just basically just 2 electric motors and a planetary gearset.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2024, 09:27:50 AM »
And no sedan is hauling home a piece of furniture for a reclamation project. Or sheet goods. Or helping friends/family move.

Not wading into the Camry/Maverick debate, but for the occasional hauling of light stuff a little utility trailer is a great option.  You could pull it with the Camry and not worry about scratching up the paint of your new truck.  UHaul rents trailers for ~$15/day.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2024, 12:19:19 PM »
And no sedan is hauling home a piece of furniture for a reclamation project. Or sheet goods. Or helping friends/family move.

Not wading into the Camry/Maverick debate, but for the occasional hauling of light stuff a little utility trailer is a great option.  You could pull it with the Camry and not worry about scratching up the paint of your new truck.  UHaul rents trailers for ~$15/day.

I think the utility trailer approach is fine, but made more sense in a world that didn't offer a very efficient little trucklet.
By the time you pay to add a hitch and associated wiring to a sedan, and then deal with renting (and then returning) a trailer any time you need one, it gets to be more hassle than it's worth. It costs time, money, and miles driven.
That's why I say the Maverick hybrid can offer lots of value, even if it costs a couple of hundred bucks  more per year to operate than something like the Corolla hybrid. I'm not everybody should ditch their reliable old fuel sipping car, but if you're in the market for new like OP, and the space/ cargo versatility might be useful for the way you live, I think it's a pretty basic, efficient vehicle with few compromises.

baconschteam

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2024, 12:39:06 PM »
After wrestling with the car question for months I purchased a 2022 Kia Niro EV this weekend with 20k miles on it for $18k after the used EV rebate. I purchased this car to replace my high mileage 2009 Prius.

I have a similar commute as you and, similarly, go on road trips at least once per year. I had considered replacing the Prius with another Prius of the same generation with fewer miles (2nd gen, 2004-2009, is one of the most reliable vehicles ever made). It is the most practical, reliable, comfortable vehicle I've ever owned. I had a trailer hitch on it and hauled all of my possessions across the country twice behind it. One can fold the front passenger seat down, and by doing so I was able to fit 60 2x4s in the car for a project as well as lots of junk from craigslist and Ikea furniture over the years.

I ended up deciding to go with the EV for what I guess amounts to ideological and vanity reasons. Financially, the older but lowish mileage Prius (I've seen around $7k for one with 70k miles) would have probably been the wiser decision, but the EV brings me a special kind of joy.

Used 2020 Bolts are currently an amazing deal if you're ok with a compact size. I've seen them for a little over $12k after the used EV rebate with around 20k miles (and with a brand new replaced battery). Since they are a hatchback, you can still fit quite a bit of stuff in the rear by folding the seats down.

One caveat to these EVs is the charge time during road trips. If your not ok waiting around for an hour to charge after every few hours of driving then do not get these cars. The new 800v architecture of Hyundai's EV 5 and 6 potentially solve this problem, but I just don't trust these cars yet. They seem great, but I went with the Niro EV because it has a pretty proven track record at this point (began production in 2018).

JupiterGreen

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2024, 09:25:33 AM »
Thank you for all the great responses. I wanted to update that I did pull the trigger on a new Corolla EV, I took your advice and got the stock model but did pay a little extra for the blind spot monitoring. NGL, it hurts to put this much money down on something, but I am a "drive it until it doesn't work" person and the accident with my current car could have been avoided had I had the new safety features. The used cars are still ridiculously priced so I think it made the most sense for me to buy new. This is my first EV and I am excited about that. I only put a deposit on it. What are these rebates on EV cars? Are they state dependent?

neo von retorch

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2024, 09:46:19 AM »
Thank you for all the great responses. I wanted to update that I did pull the trigger on a new Corolla EV, I took your advice and got the stock model but did pay a little extra for the blind spot monitoring. NGL, it hurts to put this much money down on something, but I am a "drive it until it doesn't work" person and the accident with my current car could have been avoided had I had the new safety features. The used cars are still ridiculously priced so I think it made the most sense for me to buy new. This is my first EV and I am excited about that. I only put a deposit on it. What are these rebates on EV cars? Are they state dependent?

I still find it a bit weird that we use EV to include PHEV and HEV - the Corolla is a mild hybrid like the original Prius. Not even plug-in from what I can gather on the internet. At any rate, I would call it a Corolla hybrid, or the official name of Corolla Hybrid. (I assume you're not talking about the Corolla Cross Hybrid?

JupiterGreen

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Re: Cars, your thoughts and experiences
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2024, 09:50:07 AM »
Thank you for all the great responses. I wanted to update that I did pull the trigger on a new Corolla EV, I took your advice and got the stock model but did pay a little extra for the blind spot monitoring. NGL, it hurts to put this much money down on something, but I am a "drive it until it doesn't work" person and the accident with my current car could have been avoided had I had the new safety features. The used cars are still ridiculously priced so I think it made the most sense for me to buy new. This is my first EV and I am excited about that. I only put a deposit on it. What are these rebates on EV cars? Are they state dependent?

I still find it a bit weird that we use EV to include PHEV and HEV - the Corolla is a mild hybrid like the original Prius. Not even plug-in from what I can gather on the internet. At any rate, I would call it a Corolla hybrid, or the official name of Corolla Hybrid. (I assume you're not talking about the Corolla Cross Hybrid?

Correct it is a hybrid, not a plug in. Perhaps that disqualifies it from the EV rebates.