Career advice: downgrading to a lower salary/lesser benefits/perks, etc?

[jeromedawg]

Hey all,

Wanted to get some general feedback on the current job situation. I've been at my company (Fortune 500 but poor reputation in the past several years) since 2016 in a role that's kind of meh as far as work being interesting is concerned. It's a paycheck and a fairly easy one at that - fulltime WFH w/ pretty good overall benefits (401k, health, legal plan, etc) and has been *extremely* flex with probably the most downtime I've ever had working anywhere. All this at the expense of the overall poor reputation as well as certain perks slowly being taken away or benefits reduced (e.g. they used to cover our monthly internet but did away with that a few years back, more generous offerings as far as outside training is concerned, and they also took away corporate mobile devices from all employees except those in CA [so I wasn't impacted but still], among other things). The past year has been particularly tumultuous with multiple rounds of layoffs, a major reorg/restructuring (where I was very subtly demoted in pay grade), and a few key players leaving including the manager who hired me on. There has been a lot of talk about cutting budget via attrition and it seems like they're really trying to clean house. So it feels like the writing is on the wall.

My current position as far as personal life situation and goals: we just moved to a new area not far from where we used to live (20-30min drive south) almost half a year ago - it's also HCOL but maybe a touch higher.
We did this for our kids' schooling. Currently we're renting a 2/1 apartment but keeping our eyes open for a reasonable home that's at least 3 beds (preferably 4) and at least 2 baths. Inventory levels are slim pickings - competition is hot because of that and interest rates, so it feels slightly hopeless finding a "good [or at least reasonable] deal" relative to our area.
We do have the freedom to break our current lease with 30 days written notice and no penalty, which is definitely a nice exit plan if needed. The place we're in is small and it can be tough at times but we've been making it work. It's good the amount of downtime I have where I often am not so stressed or busy that I can't focus but the small space is tough with two very active kids (basically the entire living room becomes their play area while my work desk is several feet away from everything. We are also thinking about trying for a third kid. But even if that doesn't work out, we will eventually want to move into a 3/2 or 4/2 place as our kids grow older - we have a boy and girl, so we would want them in separate rooms at some point. If we have another kid, they'll just be sharing a room with our first or our second depending on the sex. Anyway, we anticipate our first kid being accepted into the program sometime in March, so technically we could give our 30 days then and move somewhere else in April or May.
We are in a place where I believe I could technically FIRE if I wanted to and also stay put with a few changes, primarily slimming down the budget a bit more... however, I do not think this would include taking out a mortgage/loan on a home in this area (we would likely be renting for a long time if not forever if I were to FIRE today and we decided to stay here long term). I have enough of a down payment that we could take a 300-400k loan for a 3/2 or 4/2. I think I would need to work for at least several more years to feel more comfortable taking the FIRE plunge if we were to buy a home down here (or my wife would need to go back to work in addition)

That said, do you guys think I should ride it out to the very end at the current place in hopes of negotiating severance?

The other option I've been slowly exercising is casually looking around and interviewing with other companies that look interesting to me. But this could potentially come at the expense of a few things: 1) lower salary 2) much less downtime and 3) less or not as good benefits.
One company in particular I'll be interviewing with next week is a small private company that has been around for a while but is more 'auxiliary' in the products/services it offers (e.g. it basically is a company that offers training and certification to many professionals in my field and companies and corporations - they are widely recognized for the breadth and caliber of training).
I'm not holding my hopes up high as far as how far I'll get in the interview process but I'm guessing if it gets to the point that an offer is made I think any or all of the three items I mentioned (lower salary, less downtime, less/not as good benefits) will be on the table. The trade-off is that I'd likely be in a better place job security wise. It would also be WFH. At this point, one of my main priorities is being able to work remotely (this seems like a given with COVID especially... ironically, my current company is talking about forcing colocation in the future despite many companies shifting their stance the other way)

Any insight would be appreciated. TIA!

[Beach_Stache]

My sister was in a similar situation, she just recently got laid off.  The writing was on the wall for her as well, but she had a deal too good to just give up, so she stayed in the position at the salary, while in the meantime still doing her job, but reaching out to old contacts, updating her resume and applying to a few select jobs.  She had the option to quit w/a reasonable package, but w/the severance it really only gave her an extra 3 months, so the "payback" period was really 3 months if they fired her today.  She decided that wasn't realistic so she kept at the job and essentially waited around for her to get fired (which she knew she would) and I think it was that 3 months later, so right at that period.

She got a 9 month severance but got another job immediately (really they pushed back her "fire date" a few months from when they told her), so she started her new job after a week of vacation, and got to spend the next 2 months in her current job waiting for her new job to start which was sort of like vacation anyways.  The new job was something really exciting to her, but at a lower salary, but really she's double dipping for the next 9 months, so there is that.

So polish off that resume, apply for your dream jobs in the meantime, if something comes along that you like then take it, but if the writing is on the wall then you know what's going to happen.  Just don't be unprepared to start applying for jobs if you need to get in immediately, if they offer you a good severance to leave then that's something to think about, and try to negotiate if you can, asking for "more time" to find a  new job or more severance or something.  I really have no experience in that area, but if you're in good standing then maybe they can help you out?

[jeromedawg]

My sister was in a similar situation, she just recently got laid off.  The writing was on the wall for her as well, but she had a deal too good to just give up, so she stayed in the position at the salary, while in the meantime still doing her job, but reaching out to old contacts, updating her resume and applying to a few select jobs.  She had the option to quit w/a reasonable package, but w/the severance it really only gave her an extra 3 months, so the "payback" period was really 3 months if they fired her today.  She decided that wasn't realistic so she kept at the job and essentially waited around for her to get fired (which she knew she would) and I think it was that 3 months later, so right at that period.

She got a 9 month severance but got another job immediately (really they pushed back her "fire date" a few months from when they told her), so she started her new job after a week of vacation, and got to spend the next 2 months in her current job waiting for her new job to start which was sort of like vacation anyways.  The new job was something really exciting to her, but at a lower salary, but really she's double dipping for the next 9 months, so there is that.

So polish off that resume, apply for your dream jobs in the meantime, if something comes along that you like then take it, but if the writing is on the wall then you know what's going to happen.  Just don't be unprepared to start applying for jobs if you need to get in immediately, if they offer you a good severance to leave then that's something to think about, and try to negotiate if you can, asking for "more time" to find a  new job or more severance or something.  I really have no experience in that area, but if you're in good standing then maybe they can help you out?

Yea, I'm just casually looking at this point. No rush on anything. At the same time, I'm not a fan of interviewing either and would prefer not to have to if I don't need to haha. The dilemma here is if I'm offered something I might be interested in but at lesser pay (and benefits). Is it *worth* jumping a ship that seems like it's sinking and taking the plunge (without knowing what the severance package might even be)? Or do I 'gamble' and stick it in hopes of getting that package (not knowing if this might even happen... whether I get severance or if I am even laid off), then start interviewing more aggressively then?

This sort of happened with me at the last company I was at - I was given nearly a year's advance notice that my position would "likely" go away (they used no certain terms like that to intentionally avoid legal trouble) and the current position sort of 'fell into my lap' less than a year away from that position expiring. It started with a LinkedIn message from a recruiter and then a couple low pressure interviews. Totally wasn't expecting to get the position but it just worked out.

I'm not confident about this upcoming discussion but I have to keep telling myself that it's more for me just to learn about their efforts and what they're trying to do. IF things were to move forward, I'd be surprised if they match or get anywhere near my current salary or close to it with benefits, etc. I feel this way because the position I'd be applying for is outside of my current scope of work - I'd be a bit more 'junior' or 'entry-level' if anything, so I'd expect to see a pay-cut. If asked about salary though, I'm going to try to avoid the topic until I can't anymore. But just based on looking around at numbers on glassdoor, etc, it seems like the overall pay is generally lower which makes sense for a smaller private organization. If it means lesser pay and a lot more stress/pressure/etc I don't know if it would really sound as appealing (again, this is at the trade-off of potentially getting laid off as the other option... but there are also no guarantees of this - I could be 'riding it out for years' right to the point that I just decide to FIRE).

[FIRE 20/20]

I assume you are staying in a HCOL area because of family, friends, or other connections to the area.  I also assume that since you said you could FIRE today but where you are it would be pretty lean that you could FIRE to a MCOL area and be comfortably FIREd.  Because if it were me I would move to a MCOL and ride this current job out since you already WFH.  Any extra time with the company before being laid off would just be gravy.  Part of that also comes from the fact that I lived in the L.A. area for 6 months and detested it.  While the weather we nice, the crowds were just overwhelming for me. 

Since you didn't mention that as an option, I assume you're very attached to your current location.  I don't have a lot to offer, other than that in hindsight the biggest mistake I made before FIRE was moving to a low stress position too late.  My partner transitioned to a part-time position with lower stress about 1-2 years before we FIREd, and I moved from a high-stress position to a low-stress position a little after she did.  In addition I used my hundreds of hours of banked PTO to essentially do DIY part-time.  I didn't hit 40 hours a week for about 9 straight months and used PTO to cover the gap, but the position was easy enough that I still got high performance ratings.  That last year was by far the best of both of our careers, and we wish we had done it sooner.  If you're just a couple of years away from FIRE I would pick the position with essentially no consideration for the salary.  Your 'stache is doing the heavy lifting after you're near and past the halfway point (in terms of invested assets) so what's the point of adding stress for money that won't make much difference? 

So my recommendation if you're not willing to move is to keep looking casually and only change jobs when you're convinced that the work/life balance and work environment will be at least as good as they are in your current position.  Since you're very close to FIRE if you are laid off without a severance you should be able to take your time finding a new job that's a good fit even without any money coming in.  Finally, I would look at the interview as a practice session.  Even though you don't like interviewing, it is a skill that improves with practice.  You'll probably need one more job before you're fully FIREd, so look at the interview as practice even if you aren't interested in the company. 

[jeromedawg]

I assume you are staying in a HCOL area because of family, friends, or other connections to the area.  I also assume that since you said you could FIRE today but where you are it would be pretty lean that you could FIRE to a MCOL area and be comfortably FIREd.  Because if it were me I would move to a MCOL and ride this current job out since you already WFH.  Any extra time with the company before being laid off would just be gravy.  Part of that also comes from the fact that I lived in the L.A. area for 6 months and detested it.  While the weather we nice, the crowds were just overwhelming for me. 

Since you didn't mention that as an option, I assume you're very attached to your current location.  I don't have a lot to offer, other than that in hindsight the biggest mistake I made before FIRE was moving to a low stress position too late.  My partner transitioned to a part-time position with lower stress about 1-2 years before we FIREd, and I moved from a high-stress position to a low-stress position a little after she did.  In addition I used my hundreds of hours of banked PTO to essentially do DIY part-time.  I didn't hit 40 hours a week for about 9 straight months and used PTO to cover the gap, but the position was easy enough that I still got high performance ratings.  That last year was by far the best of both of our careers, and we wish we had done it sooner.  If you're just a couple of years away from FIRE I would pick the position with essentially no consideration for the salary.  Your 'stache is doing the heavy lifting after you're near and past the halfway point (in terms of invested assets) so what's the point of adding stress for money that won't make much difference? 

So my recommendation if you're not willing to move is to keep looking casually and only change jobs when you're convinced that the work/life balance and work environment will be at least as good as they are in your current position.  Since you're very close to FIRE if you are laid off without a severance you should be able to take your time finding a new job that's a good fit even without any money coming in.  Finally, I would look at the interview as a practice session.  Even though you don't like interviewing, it is a skill that improves with practice.  You'll probably need one more job before you're fully FIREd, so look at the interview as practice even if you aren't interested in the company.

Thanks for the feedback! The biggest reason we're in this area is for a dual language immersion program that we're enrolling our son in. We have to reside within a specific neighborhood boundary to guarantee him entrance into the program and anticipate getting the acceptance letter in March I think. After that we can choose to live outside the boundary or in a completely different district if we want to (of course, we would have some amount of commuting to deal with).  But yes, I believe you are correct- if we wanted to FIRE today it would be relatively lean but if we moved to even a MCOL area it should be easier. Relative to the current COL, I think Vancouver WA would be a MCOL area which also has a similar immersion program. I've considered moving us there but then the second factor, of which you pointed out in friends/family/connections, would be the other challenge. My in-laws already live 1.5 hours away and we visit them on a monthly basis. It would be tough on my wife (and also them) if we were to move. Unless we were to move them with us... but they have 'complications' with their living situation and being low-income (in their mid-70s and have a mortgage but refinanced into a balloon payment loan and are currently house hacking to help subsidize things for now).

The idea of *me* FIREing is foreign to my wife too, and she doesn't like it at all (because she assumes I'll be sitting on my butt all day doing absolutely nothing). Truth is, I'm kind of tired of being 'chained' to answering to someone (even though it's extremely flexible) and I feel like I could use a break to regather myself to decide whether to get back on the corporate train or to figure out if I want to make things work via side-hustle, Barista FIRE, or entrepreneurship... at the moment I have no idea what I really want to do long-term. One thing to keep in mind if I were to move to a lower COL area is that my salary could potentially be adjusted lower based on cost of living if I relocate to a different "zone" - I guess this isn't that big of a deal but something to consider. As far as applying for other jobs, *ALOT* of jobs these days are either going remote or are allowing the option or plus flex. BTW: I'm sure you know but LA and OC are pretty different when it comes to crowds and depending where you live (even in LA). I would hate living in the SaMo/Hollywood/downtown area as that's not my vibe. But when you get down to OC there's more of suburban sprawl, especially in places like Irvine (although it's becoming increasingly densely populated there). In South OC it's even less "crowded" as far as people and traffic are concerned. Only place that gets consistently crowded these days are at the local beaches. I avoid that by going early morning or late afternoon though (which are usually, and coincidentally, the best times to go fishing hahaha).

As alluded to, my current position is relatively low stress *now*. It could get worse in the coming months or years depending on how long I decide to stay or ride it out. My current manager is not the most stable type and often wears her heart on her sleeve when she manages, which means a lot of projection... it can be disconcerting at times. If I were still under my prior manager I would feel a lot more comfortable about staying put. The current manager makes me quite uncomfortable at times though.

My concern is that if we really do want to settle here and buy a place, I feel the impact on the stache would be a pretty big hit and require at least several more years of salaried work to feel more comfortable about things. Unless I'm able to go from "$1 to $100,000/yr" in some unicorn side venture/hustle/etc that I just haven't figured out or discovered yet hahaha

I agree with you on interviews as practice. I actually applied for another position since posting (and this one I think would likely be more commensurate with my current experience/position/salary) but not sure how much WFH they will allow. A friend works for the company and really loves it there though, saying they treat their employees extremely well. I suppose if anything, that should be something of large importance too :)

[FIRE 20/20]

Do you mind if I ask how many times your planned annual FIRE'd spending you have saved up?  I'm assuming you're at least at 10-15x if you're close to FIRE, but I could be misunderstanding.  And is part-time work possible in your field (sorry if you covered this already)?  As I mentioned before that was fantastic for both my partner and for me.  Even if no one else is part-time in your field or at your company, if you're a valued employee and if you are closing in on FIRE then it might be possible. 
When I was there (maybe in 2003?) I lived in Rancho Palos Verdes and worked in Redondo Beach.  I couldn't take the crowds at every business and on every road at all times of day/night.  Aside from the number of people it was a great place to live for those 6 months, and I'm glad I had the chance to do so. 

[Anon-E-Mouze]

Stopping by just to add a couple of factors for you to consider:

1) You mentioned that you might be in the market at some point to buy a house. How will your employment situation affect your ability to get a mortgage on the terms you want? If you were unemployed, or working at a lower-paid job, would your combined income qualify you for the mortgage you want at a reasonable rate? If you'd just transitioned to a new job, would you face any difficulties because you hadn't been there for long?

2) How's your cash situation? Do you have enough of a cushion to handle unemployment or gaps between old job salary and new job salary, especially if you might be house-hunting the same time period?

[jeromedawg]

Stopping by just to add a couple of factors for you to consider:

1) You mentioned that you might be in the market at some point to buy a house. How will your employment situation affect your ability to get a mortgage on the terms you want? If you were unemployed, or working at a lower-paid job, would your combined income qualify you for the mortgage you want at a reasonable rate? If you'd just transitioned to a new job, would you face any difficulties because you hadn't been there for long?

2) How's your cash situation? Do you have enough of a cushion to handle unemployment or gaps between old job salary and new job salary, especially if you might be house-hunting the same time period?

1) Correct - we are hoping to buy a house and settle in this area for a good number of years hopefully. Good point on employment and qualifying for a mortgage. It's quite likely that I'd have a tough time being able to procure a loan if I downgraded too much. Then again, the market is nuts right now and competition too much I think - so even if we found a lower cost home within or below our budget, it would likely get bid over budget in a bidding war.

2) We have a pretty good cash position right now. I think we would be able to Lean or Barista FIRE if we wanted to but we'd be renting. At that point I think house-hunting might be out of the question unless we move to a MCOL or LCOL OR I find work again. I might be able to to a slight reduction in salary and still qualify for a decent sized loan however