The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Montecarlo on April 23, 2019, 04:28:53 PM
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Past couple days I've heard the sounds of a young child wailing/shrieking when I get home from work. I didn't think too much about it at first, because sometimes little kids shriek when they play.
Today I went out into the backyard and saw a small child in a neighbors yard in the same direction the sounds were coming from. Couldn't see clearly with all the foliage and it was across a whole other yard, but pretty sure it was the same child. And it was calling "mommy! mommy!" and very clearly distressed.
I called the non emergency line and they sent a car out. Right call, or nosy neighbor?
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I guess my biggest worry, now that I think about it, is if they are abusive/neglectful parents, the cops visiting and asking questions will likely result in more abuse/neglect, not less...
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it's probably nothing. One of my kids is a 'spirited child' who could wail/shriek like a banshee when she didn't get her way particularly as a toddler. I often used to wonder what the neighbors thought although no one ever called the cops, thank goodness. Little kids tend to scream and cry a lot. But OTOH if it is something at least you did something.
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Personally I would have knocked on the door. If it is a real emergency, you can't wait for the cops to get there. And this way you meet the neighbors.
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Well the cops must have gone in, cause the father showed up at my door demanding to know why I called the cops, and then told me "watch out when you're walking around this neighborhood"
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I think I might call (again non emergency) to document they are now threatening you.
Kids sometimes scream, but I think if it we're me, I'd have either ignored the neighbor or gone over and said something like "thanks for your concern, but she's just really dramatic".
I don't know that I would have called originally, as a kid yelling Mommy doesn't really say much.
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Don’t call the police and expect them to be social workers. That’s not their job and it’ll end poorly.
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Don’t call the police and expect them to be social workers. That’s not their job and it’ll end poorly.
Completely agree (from experience)!
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So... call child services or ignore?
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I would have waited around longer to see if anything abusive appeared to be happening rather than a kid just shrieking out "mommy mommy".
Strange that the cops told them who called. They usually just say they got a call or complaint, not who it was who called it in.
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I would have waited around longer to see if anything abusive appeared to be happening rather than a kid just shrieking out "mommy mommy".
Strange that the cops told them who called. They usually just say they got a call or complaint, not who it was who called it in.
He went door to door until he figured it out. I think my neighbors ratted me out.
I mean, putting myself in his shoes if he just has a drama queen child, I would be pissed too. But I wouldn’t go door to door to figure out who it was and threaten them.
After reading the responses and thinking more, I probably over reacted. It seemed right at the time, but I probably wouldn’t do it again in the future.
People make mistakes, right?
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Calling child services is extreme! Woah.
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Well the cops must have gone in, cause the father showed up at my door demanding to know why I called the cops, and then told me "watch out when you're walking around this neighborhood"
Well, it's time to call them again!
The first call might've been over the top, but if someone showed up at my door and told me I'd better watch out, that's getting reported immediately.
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Guys think I should write the guy a letter, explain I was worried about a possible safety issue, and express my apologies?
I really just was trying to do what I thought was right. I have zero interest in having a row with my neighbors.
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Do you have much experience with kids? I do and I absolutely love them. And I’ll tell you this: they are exhausting, can be demon spawn at times, and will take your last nerve and pluck it like a banjo.
I remember a time when my kids wouldn’t stop fighting and screaming at each other. I gave up after awhile. I physically picked them up, put them out in the backyard, and locked the door. Did it hurt them? Heck no. They carried on with their screeching and fighting for a good 10 minutes. They finally cut it out once they realized they were outside until they did.
Point is, the screeching neighbor kid is probably nothing. There are plenty of good parents, some clueless parents, but few evil or cruel ones. Those that are get a disproportionate amount of attention.
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Maybe the first call was overreacting, but threats are worth reporting, based on the behavior you describe. Once I got the threat, I'd want to report.
My reasoning is that the confronting of multiple neighbors and issuing of a threat suggests a pattern of controlling through fear. That's exactly what the first call didn't have enough info to verify. Now you have info to verify it, and you're the target.
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So I wrote an apology letter, rang the doorbell. No one answered so I left the letter.
He comes back to my door a half hour later, said his wife told him someone was around. He was calm, much calmer than before.
I apologized, he accepted.
Man, sometimes I really hate dealing with people. I’m extremely introverted and very bad at it.
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Sounds like a good ending. Or beginning.
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Maybe the first call was overreacting, but threats are worth reporting, based on the behavior you describe. Once I got the threat, I'd want to report.
My reasoning is that the confronting of multiple neighbors and issuing of a threat suggests a pattern of controlling through fear. That's exactly what the first call didn't have enough info to verify. Now you have info to verify it, and you're the target.
Yeah he’s either got something to hide, has paranoia (he almost acted as if I was out to get him. I don’t even know him), under a lot of stress, or something. Either way it was not normal.
Then again, I’ve done some pretty off-putting not normal shit, so I shouldn’t judge. Sounds like the hatchet is buried and the girls are probably safe, so that’s what is important.
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That is odd if he went door to door inquiring. I suspect he was in the house when you left the note, but didn't want to deal with you until he read the note that you apologized in.
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see something...say something
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Don’t call the police and expect them to be social workers. That’s not their job and it’ll end poorly.
If you expect someone, even a kid, to be in immediate danger, the police are exactly who you should call. They can hand it to child protective services if deemed necessary.
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I think you did the right things in all of this. You don't know your neighbors, and as an introvert, you're not required to. You had a concern for a helpless child, and reported it. Good on you.
Your neighbor should be apologizing to you for the threats. His aggressive nature (hunting you down) IS a sign of abuse. I'm not saying he is abusive, but he's certainly showing signs of potentially being abusive.
To be fair though, raising kids can be hard.
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Man... if someone called the cops every time my kid shrieked......
I guess you had to be there to hear the tone. I don't blame you, but don't blame the Dad on the reaction either.
The other day my kid got mad at me because she was supposed to put away her laundry.... she ended up screaming at me and running out the front door and down the street.
I chased after her and carried her over my shoulder back to the house. She was screaming and kicking the whole way. I'm sure a stranger would have thought I was kidnapping her. (My parents would have let me run away.... sigh)
I have a "spirited" "stubborn" child as well. Most of the time meeting crazy with calm and rational voices works. Sometimes she doesn't get the reaction she wants and explodes (we are working on it). Ignoring her screaming is sometimes one of the best things to do to help her calm down/teach her screaming isn't necessary. So I'm sure my neighbors sometimes thinks there's ax murdering going on...
It's getting better and less frequent now that she's getting older and we are working hard on teaching emotional control.
My suggestion next time is if it's just across the street, go over there and check it out. Hey, I heard yelling, is everything ok? I'd be happy to explain my kid is having a fit over socks, or whatever, and apologize over the noise, haha.
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Man... if someone called the cops every time my kid shrieked......
I guess you had to be there to hear the tone. I don't blame you, but don't blame the Dad on the reaction either.
The other day my kid got mad at me because she was supposed to put away her laundry.... she ended up screaming at me and running out the front door and down the street.
I chased after her and carried her over my shoulder back to the house. She was screaming and kicking the whole way. I'm sure a stranger would have thought I was kidnapping her. (My parents would have let me run away.... sigh)
I have a "spirited" "stubborn" child as well. Most of the time meeting crazy with calm and rational voices works. Sometimes she doesn't get the reaction she wants and explodes (we are working on it). Ignoring her screaming is sometimes one of the best things to do to help her calm down/teach her screaming isn't necessary. So I'm sure my neighbors sometimes thinks there's ax murdering going on...
It's getting better and less frequent now that she's getting older and we are working hard on teaching emotional control.
My suggestion next time is if it's just across the street, go over there and check it out. Hey, I heard yelling, is everything ok? I'd be happy to explain my kid is having a fit over socks, or whatever, and apologize over the noise, haha.
To confirm, you feel that threatening your neighbors is ok?
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Why didn't you just go knock on the neighbour's door? If I thought there might be something wrong that's what I'd do, just say that I heard a lot of crying and wanted to make sure everything was alright. My son will occasionally collapse on the ground and scream and cry like he is being tortured (yelling "mommy, mommy" or "daddy, daddy" over and over all the while) when we tell him it's time to come in for supper and he doesn't want to. I'd be rather upset if someone called the police because of that. If you talk to the people involved you'll probably get a much better idea of what's going on, and then be in a better place to decide what actions make sense.
No excuse for threatening you of course, but I feel that to immediately jump to the police in this instance was probably a little over the top.
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Even as a childfree guy I can tell the difference between normal yelling & crying from falling and a bumped head and actual pain or danger. If you heard the latter then the call was probably right. As far as going over and knocking on the door, what would that do in an actual abuse situation, "no is all good he just tripped while playing catch; thanks for the concern but we can handle it"...
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but I feel that to immediately jump to the police in this instance was probably a little over the top.
Is it immediately if they observed several days of the behavior and had concern on all of them?
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I'm pretty surprised by the number of people on this forum who jump to "call the cops" for issues that they don't understand and speculate about. This isn't the first thread like this.
Calling the police is a threat of violence. It's done within the framework of the law, but that doesn't change what it is.
Your neighbor shouldn't be threatening you, but his anger is understandable.
I'm glad that you worked this out like reasonable people, but as a rule, don't call the police.
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I'm pretty surprised by the number of people on this forum who jump to "call the cops" for issues that they don't understand and speculate about. This isn't the first thread like this.
Calling the police is a threat of violence. It's done within the framework of the law, but that doesn't change what it is.
Your neighbor shouldn't be threatening you, but his anger is understandable.
I'm glad that you worked this out like reasonable people, but as a rule, don't call the police.
What is your standard for calling the cops; in this scenario at what point should a generic neighbor call the cops in your view?
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Calling the police is a threat of violence. It's done within the framework of the law, but that doesn't change what it is.
Um, what?
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but I feel that to immediately jump to the police in this instance was probably a little over the top.
Is it immediately if they observed several days of the behavior and had concern on all of them?
The thing is, I see calling the police as an action that is taken when immediate attention is necessary. If there wasn't enough concern to call them two days ago, or yesterday, I'd figure that there probably isn't enough concern to call them today. It would still makes sense to go over (on the third day it would make more sense to do so . . . you can say "Hey, I've noticed this screaming several days in a row now and felt kinda concerned. Is there a problem, or do you need any help?" then you'll get a much better feel for the situation. Depending on how that goes, sure . . . maybe calling police is the best action.
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Man... if someone called the cops every time my kid shrieked......
I guess you had to be there to hear the tone. I don't blame you, but don't blame the Dad on the reaction either.
The other day my kid got mad at me because she was supposed to put away her laundry.... she ended up screaming at me and running out the front door and down the street.
I chased after her and carried her over my shoulder back to the house. She was screaming and kicking the whole way. I'm sure a stranger would have thought I was kidnapping her. (My parents would have let me run away.... sigh)
I have a "spirited" "stubborn" child as well. Most of the time meeting crazy with calm and rational voices works. Sometimes she doesn't get the reaction she wants and explodes (we are working on it). Ignoring her screaming is sometimes one of the best things to do to help her calm down/teach her screaming isn't necessary. So I'm sure my neighbors sometimes thinks there's ax murdering going on...
It's getting better and less frequent now that she's getting older and we are working hard on teaching emotional control.
My suggestion next time is if it's just across the street, go over there and check it out. Hey, I heard yelling, is everything ok? I'd be happy to explain my kid is having a fit over socks, or whatever, and apologize over the noise, haha.
To confirm, you feel that threatening your neighbors is ok?
Sigh. I get why the Dad was upset. No I don't think telling neighbors to 'watch out' is a good idea. I think a little more kindness could go a long way in either direction. I'm trying not to judge either way. I'd be really upset that someone called the cops on my instead of knocking on my door and asking if everything was ok. But then again, I know most of my neighbors and hopefully they'd feel ok checking in on me, as humans do.
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I'm pretty surprised by the number of people on this forum who jump to "call the cops" for issues that they don't understand and speculate about. This isn't the first thread like this.
Calling the police is a threat of violence. It's done within the framework of the law, but that doesn't change what it is.
Your neighbor shouldn't be threatening you, but his anger is understandable.
I'm glad that you worked this out like reasonable people, but as a rule, don't call the police.
What is your standard for calling the cops; in this scenario at what point should a generic neighbor call the cops in your view?
A generic neighbor should almost always avoid calling the police. This was a great example of when not to. OP (who handled everything afterward well) speculated that something nebulous might be happening. An easier perspective might be "See something, say something", but this didn't meet that test.
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Calling the police is a threat of violence. It's done within the framework of the law, but that doesn't change what it is.
Um, what?
Any time that you called armed people to a situation, the threat of violence is present. This is a good example.
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Calling the police is a threat of violence. It's done within the framework of the law, but that doesn't change what it is.
Um, what?
Any time that you called armed people to a situation, the threat of violence is present. This is a good example.
Violence does not require people to be armed.
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Calling the police is a threat of violence. It's done within the framework of the law, but that doesn't change what it is.
Um, what?
Any time that you called armed people to a situation, the threat of violence is present. This is a good example.
A threat of violence can also be present when a 6'5" hulk opens the door on all 5'3" of yours truly. I also have zero guarantee my neighbor isn't armed. If I'm going to confront a stranger, I would prefer law enforcement professionals be present.
Would I call on a crying/screaming child? Tough call. Kids scream and cry, sometimes a lot. Often you can tell they're happy screams, or angry screams, or a tantrum. But if you can't, or it actually sounds deeply wrong, you also don't want to stand by and then find out that kid ended up in a deep freezer...
Then again, interactions with police carry finite risk as well, especially if you are non-white.
Overall, if I *really* think/feel there is something wrong, I would value safety of a child over what's *most likely* an uncomfortable conversation for the parent. So I don't begrudge the OP making this choice. But it certainly isn't straightforward...
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Calling the police is a threat of violence. It's done within the framework of the law, but that doesn't change what it is.
Um, what?
Any time that you called armed people to a situation, the threat of violence is present. This is a good example.
Maybe it's a cultural difference, but I do not see police threatening violence. They do the opposite, and try to prevent it. I know this is not true of every US community.
So would it have been OK to call in the UK? Police aren't armed.
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Well, let's just end the arguments. It's probably safe to say I'm an idiot and acted emotionally based on my own past.
Let's all agree on that and move on.
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It's probably safe to say I'm an idiot and acted emotionally based on my own past.
Absolutely not! Everyone reacts to things differently because of their prior experiences! That's what makes life beautiful - celebrate that diversity! There's no right or wrong, obviously, based on the extremes in replies. You did the exact right thing for you - and perhaps for the child.
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Not long ago,local news reporter interviewed the apartment neighbor of a woman beaten to death. The apparently 'generic' neighbor said she heard the beating going on next door, but didn't call police because it was not her business. I'd rather live next to OP, who cares if someone is in distress, and does something.
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My mom used to lock my brother and I outside when we would fight as little kids. We screamed too. Doesn’t seem like a big deal unless it’s lasting longer than 30 minutes.
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Calling the police is a threat of violence. It's done within the framework of the law, but that doesn't change what it is.
Um, what?
Any time that you called armed people to a situation, the threat of violence is present. This is a good example.
Maybe it's a cultural difference, but I do not see police threatening violence. They do the opposite, and try to prevent it. I know this is not true of every US community.
So would it have been OK to call in the UK? Police aren't armed.
I can't speak to the UK. I would be more comfortable in that situation. I realize that many people in the US don't see the police as a threat of violence, but a lot of people also see HR in companies as there to help them. Sometimes it works that way, but it's not always true and the stakes are very high with police in the US.
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It's such a difficult question because both alternatives include a risk of violence.
The police are armed and can without ill intent escalate into violent means of control, plus a few may sneak ill intent into the mix. Yet a parent can violently abuse a child, unhindered unless a neighbor calls the police. How does anyone know what happens behind closed doors?
As citizens, we have to guess based on what we see, and do our duty as best we can, weighing both risks.
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One of my Orlando neighbors had a toddler son that could shriek like a banshee. We lived two doors down and I ignored the occasional shriek, but one day he went on for so long and had such an anxious note in his shrieking that I went down to see if he was okay ... just as cops pulled up. It turned out that there had been no less than five 911 calls within a couple of minutes about the shrieking. The parents were hideously embarrassed--the kid was having a tantrum about not being allowed access to a toy and they had no idea he was being so loud about it.
Moral of the story--it never hurts to check things out if they seem weird.
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I can't speak to the UK. I would be more comfortable in that situation. I realize that many people in the US don't see the police as a threat of violence, but a lot of people also see HR in companies as there to help them. Sometimes it works that way, but it's not always true and the stakes are very high with police in the US.
There's a significant racial and socioeconomic divide when it comes to this perception.
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Well, let's just end the arguments. It's probably safe to say I'm an idiot and acted emotionally based on my own past.
Let's all agree on that and move on.
Sorry, not going to agree with that. For all you knew the kid was left home alone and was in danger/injured, or was injured as a result of abuse from the parents, or any number of scenarios where that child was in need of help. The correct answer when you have a concern about the safety of another (especially a child) is to call people trained to handle such situations. If it turns out the kid is fine, great - no harm no foul, everyone can laugh about the situation afterwards. If it turns out the kid was in danger and help arrives in time, then you're the one who caused that child to be safe. The parent that has a problem with someone who tries to ensure their child is safe is a parent that doesn't have their priorities straight, and that's what you should have told the neighbor when he came to your door.
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Well, let's just end the arguments. It's probably safe to say I'm an idiot and acted emotionally based on my own past.
Let's all agree on that and move on.
Sorry, not going to agree with that. For all you knew the kid was left home alone and was in danger/injured, or was injured as a result of abuse from the parents, or any number of scenarios where that child was in need of help. The correct answer when you have a concern about the safety of another (especially a child) is to call people trained to handle such situations. If it turns out the kid is fine, great - no harm no foul, everyone can laugh about the situation afterwards. If it turns out the kid was in danger and help arrives in time, then you're the one who caused that child to be safe. The parent that has a problem with someone who tries to ensure their child is safe is a parent that doesn't have their priorities straight, and that's what you should have told the neighbor when he came to your door.
So you think OP should have gone to the parent?
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Well, let's just end the arguments. It's probably safe to say I'm an idiot and acted emotionally based on my own past.
Let's all agree on that and move on.
Sorry, not going to agree with that. For all you knew the kid was left home alone and was in danger/injured, or was injured as a result of abuse from the parents, or any number of scenarios where that child was in need of help. The correct answer when you have a concern about the safety of another (especially a child) is to call people trained to handle such situations. If it turns out the kid is fine, great - no harm no foul, everyone can laugh about the situation afterwards. If it turns out the kid was in danger and help arrives in time, then you're the one who caused that child to be safe. The parent that has a problem with someone who tries to ensure their child is safe is a parent that doesn't have their priorities straight, and that's what you should have told the neighbor when he came to your door.
So you think OP should have gone to the parent?
In the OP's situation I would have gone to the neighbor first, and if no answer at the door (or if I got a bad "vibe") I would have then called the cops to let them check on the situation. If the OP wasn't comfortable going directly to the neighbor, then skipping that step is perfectly acceptable imo.
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Two points I'd like to chime in with:
The non-emergency line is specifically for situations like this. Yeah, maybe trying to talk to the kid and figure out what's going on would've been a good idea in retrospect, but in prospect there appeared to be enough concern for the child's immediate welfare that a reasonable adult felt the need to notify the police. Accepting that at face value, the proper action was taken. As a father, I'd like to think my neighbors would be concerned enough about my son's welfare to call for help if they think it's needed.
The father's response afterwards is highly concerning and clearly inappropriate. Though probably not illegal (I'm not a lawyer but think there'd have to be a clearer threat for their behavior to be a crime), it does raise red flags. Again, the father's concerning behavior was not known at the time, but if the same situation arises again, I would have an even lower threshold to call the police.
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Speaking as someone who works in the security field, and also occasionally has to deal with irate people about HOA matters--
If you were concerned about the child, then calling the police was absolutely the right thing.
You are under no obligation to endanger yourself by going over to investigate. You have no idea how they would react, or how armed/irrational they might be. Not to mention, if there *was* something going on, the family does not have to open the door to you, or let you in--they can simply lie to your face and tell you to get off their porch. They can't do that to the police, who are obligated to investigate further and can make entry if they suspect anything wrong. And if you did go over, chances are good that you might get screamed at, or worse, for daring to suggest that something might be going on (or even that you object to the noise)--regardless of whether or not anything was wrong with the kid. Plus, now those neighbors have identified you as a potential enemy--and if the police DO get called down the road, even if it's an anonymouse call by someone else, you are suddenly target numero uno for retribution, threats, etc.
The fact that the father canvassed the neighborhood until he identified you, then came and made (vague, nonspecific) threats? BIG red flag. At best, he's a bully. At worst, he's something else. I hope your apology (which you shouldn't have had to make, IMHO), does keep the peace. But if it doesn't, don't hesitate. Call the police.