The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: ReadySetMillionaire on July 21, 2015, 12:01:55 PM
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TL;DR
Older brother and his girlfriend are living paycheck to paycheck due to very high fixed costs. His girlfriend made the post below about food stamps, totally shifting blame from herself to the government. My mom is very upset about it, as are my brother and I. We tried helping them with their budget around Christmas and they have made very little changes. Any advice on how we can help them without being too overbearing or critical?
Introduction
My older brother's girlfriend is a great girl. She fits into our family very well, she is well educated (getting her masters in psychology), she treats my older brother better than he's ever been treated, etc. She has also befriended my mom and, because my mom lives on her own, I greatly appreciate the friendship they've established.
There's one big problem: both she and my brother just don't have any concept of a budget, let alone being frugal. I'll get to that in a minute. But first, I give you this post she wrote last Friday (she is in red, her mom's is middle comment in red):
(http://i.imgur.com/lQMy9T9.jpg)
Like I said, she is still getting her degree and will likely make a high income some time in the future. But for now, she is working full time at a local hospital making something like $12-13 an hour. My older brother didn't go to college, but has always been an insanely hard worker and worked tons of hours. He is a guard at a prison making a similar hourly wage as his GF (maybe a little more), but he works crazy overtime and probably makes decent income.
I'm guessing they make somewhere around $60,000 gross combined (top estimate) and about $42,000 net. That leaves them with a gross income of about $3,500 per month. Not great, but certainly livable in our low COL area (Youngstown).
And now to their expenses.
Monthly Income: $3,500
Vehicle Expenses
- Brother's Car: $410 (2014 Chevy Silverado)
- Girlfriend's Car: $275 (2014 Nissan)
- Brother's Car Insurance: $90
- Girlfriend's Car Insurance: $90
- Brother's Motorcycle: $200 (Harley)
- Girlfriend's Motorcycle Payment: $150 (Harley)
- Both Insurance: $40
- Combined Gas:going to conservatively guess $275
Cost of Living Expenses
- Rent: $550
- Groceries: $400
- Utilities: $100
- Cable: $60
- Cell Phones: $150
- Her Crossfit Membership: $100
- They Own Three Dogs: $100 per month
- Washer/Dryer Payment (They Financed): $20
Other Things to Mention
- My older brother is in debt to my mom for about $10,000. She's been doing this for 10 years and ultimately has it set up so she gets $700 per month ACH to her.
- I'm excluding the small, random purchases that always seem to pop up (Panera, Dunkin Donuts, etc.)
- She has to begin paying on her student loans eventually. She already has $60,000 debt
- They have a few delinquent accounts (i.e., old healthcare bills) that I know they are paying on as well
Totals: $3,500 monthly income and $3,715 just in a conservative guess of their fixed expenses.
You might say by now, "Hey, that's their problem." But in the past couple months, my brother's girlfriend has texted my twin brother asking for butter and pasta. This is no exaggeration: come Tuesday (four days after one of them get a paycheck), they literally don't have a couple bucks to buy food.
I can't even tell you how hard it is to get those texts. My older brother filed bankruptcy four years or so ago and works incredibly hard, and it makes me sick that he struggles so much. Just this past Saturday he worked a 12 hour shift, then picked up 10 more hours of overtime because he needed to pay the bills. He worked 22 hours in a day and probably has nothing to show for it.
Which all brings me to his girlfriend's Facebook post. She's not kidding when she says she could only afford a can of soup. Her parents have (from what I understand) cut her off, as have mine (for the most part). My mom still gives them money every once in a while to keep them afloat.
But the Facebook post really upset my mom, my brother and I. Here they are will all these toys (and in debt to my mom to the tune of $10,000) and she is posting about people on food stamps.
The rest of our family knows the real issue--their situation has nothing to do with a lack of income or a government system that screws them over. They are where they are because of a series of irresponsible decisions in which they knowingly prioritized wants and luxuries (cars, dogs, gym memberships, etc.) over financial responsibility.
How Can We Move Forward?
Bottom line is that my brother and his GF's financial situation is really taking a toll on our family. We hate seeing my older brother and his girlfriend work this hard and have nothing to show for it.
Sitting them down at Christmas didn't seem to change much. My brother is in the process of selling his Chevy and was able to get a $5,000 Ford Fusion; but that's literally been the only progress made.
My Big Questions
- How would you approach them again without being too confrontational or overbearing?
- What specific steps would you recommend to them? I assume the basics (cut cable, etc.), but I think a diverse set of step-by-step replies would really help them.
Important Edit: While the Facebook post was solely by my brother's girlfriend, the financial problem is a mutual one. I'm looking for steps to help and approach both of them, not just my brother's GF. My OP was slanted towards being critical of her, but my older brother is equally (if not more) culpable with his bad financial decisions.
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They have no kids, right? Nobody blameless is going without formula or diapers or food because of parental stupidity? Nobody has a debilitating addiction or medical issue that impairs their ability to make decisions responsibly? Because if that's the case, I would just let them sink. They are going to have to learn some time, and it sounds like the girlfriend's family is of that mindset, which would explain why they cut her off.
Good question. Nope, no kids or mental illnesses or disabilities. Brother is 28 and his girlfriend is 24, although I think she's always been in school and never had a full time job.
Like I said, they're huge issue is not being able to budget at all within their means.
It's easy to say "let them sink," but we've tried that for about a year now. It's hard getting texts from your brother's GF when they literally can't afford food. It's even harder to watch how upset my mom gets about it, so I'm hoping there's something we can do...
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I needed You Need A Budget (and its forums - which eventually led me here) in order to REALLY understand what my money, and my decisions with it, were doing. I don't know how you could get them to use it, but this is a software and budgeting mindset which I think could really help them.
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Definitely hard and definitely sucks.
How about taking a roundabout approach? Something to the tune of... aren't they so lucky they can afford two motorcycles AND two cars AND crossfit AND three dogs? (Yes I realize they can't really afford it). From there, based on her response, I'd pick one to focus on. "Jeez, those motorcycles are awesome! But how much riding do you really get to do with all of your other responsibilities?" Again, based on her response, maybe she'd be open to discussing getting rid of the bikes for now (or crossfit or cable... I wouldn't try it with the dogs though). There's PLENTY of time to have all that when they're making the big money (try not to visibly cringe when you say this!), but right now, wouldn't it be better to have some money left over at the end of the month? Approach as a friend, as someone who wants to talk, not lecture.
If that doesn't work, I'm kinda with serpentstooth. Sometimes you need to fall down to learn how to get back up. In the meantime, everyone needs to stop 'helping' by giving them money or food because it isn't helping at this point, it's enabling. But be around to help with advice and budget setting if they ever request it.
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My recommendation for these types of situations is to write it out on paper for someone. Also, you may not personally be the right messenger for them. Have you considered pointing them towards Dave Ramsey?
Dave Ramsey is pretty much just the basic meat & potatoes advice of the financial industry, boiled down to short memorable phrases. His advice mostly focuses on people in serious debt trouble. His advice would roughly be as follows:
1) Sell all vehicles and get a beater replacements
2) Cut lifestyle expenses down to nothing
3) Cut groceries down to "beans and rice"
4) No restaurant spending or fun shopping. PERIOD.
5) Track every dollar of expense (either through a spreadsheet, envelope system or Mint)
There new expenses should look something like this:
Vehicle Expenses
Brother's Car: $410 (2014 Chevy Silverado)
Girlfriend's Car: $275 (2014 Nissan)
Brother's Car Insurance: $90 older cars should reduce the insurance cost
Girlfriend's Car Insurance: $90
Brother's Motorcycle: $200 (Harley)
Girlfriend's Motorcycle Payment: $150 (Harley)
Both Insurance: $40
Combined Gas:going to conservatively guess $275
Cost of Living Expenses
Rent: $550
Groceries: $400 $300, rice and beans
Utilities: $100
Cable: $60
Cell Phones: $150 $50/month
Her Crossfit Membership: $100 running and push-ups are free
They Own Three Dogs: $100 per month I wouldn't touch this one - it's bad financially, but too emotional
Washer/Dryer Payment (They Financed): $20 that's the close enough to the cost of doing laundry at a laundromat that I would just pay it off
New Monthly Total: $1,525
Then attack the debt in the following order:
1) Save $1,000 in the bank so you can pay for an immediate emergency and don't go further in debt
2) List debts from smallest to largest. Use ALL savings to pay off the smallest ones first (the reason for this is psychological, they will feel immediate progress, further motivating them).
3) With each debt paid off, take that monthly payment (e.g. $20/month for washer/dryer) and put it towards the next largest debt
If you do decide to take in this task personally of guiding them, I recommend doing so in a letter/email format. It will allow you to carefully craft your words and tone. Also, it will give them time to digest the recommendations and hopefully leave them not feeling offended. I do interpret her post as a cry for help - so definitely it is the right thing to try to help. Good luck! It's not going to be easy.
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They have no kids, right? Nobody blameless is going without formula or diapers or food because of parental stupidity? Nobody has a debilitating addiction or medical issue that impairs their ability to make decisions responsibly? Because if that's the case, I would just let them sink. They are going to have to learn some time, and it sounds like the girlfriend's family is of that mindset, which would explain why they cut her off.
Good question. Nope, no kids or mental illnesses or disabilities. Brother is 28 and his girlfriend is 24, although I think she's always been in school and never had a full time job.
Like I said, they're huge issue is not being able to budget at all within their means.
It's easy to say "let them sink," but we've tried that for about a year now. It's hard getting texts from your brother's GF when they literally can't afford food. It's even harder to watch how upset my mom gets about it, so I'm hoping there's something we can do...
But it's not that they "literally cannot afford food", it's that they prioritize $150 a month on phones (WTF) before food.
But if it were my brother (and it's not), I would drop off a bag food every week. A bag of beans ($1), a 5 lb bag of rice ($3). Maybe a large can of tomatoes, some onions, and a veggie if you want to go crazy. For $5 a week you can make sure they don't starve.
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I'd send them the Dave Ramsey book about getting out of debt. Especially if the GF is at all religious (I hear the book has some religious undertones). I might also send them a listing of all the local food banks.
Since I'm the snarky relative I might post something on that Facebook thread about how they could sell one of their 4 vehicles to buy food for themselves. However, that may also cause them to cut you off.
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They have no kids, right? Nobody blameless is going without formula or diapers or food because of parental stupidity? Nobody has a debilitating addiction or medical issue that impairs their ability to make decisions responsibly? Because if that's the case, I would just let them sink. They are going to have to learn some time, and it sounds like the girlfriend's family is of that mindset, which would explain why they cut her off.
Good question. Nope, no kids or mental illnesses or disabilities. Brother is 28 and his girlfriend is 24, although I think she's always been in school and never had a full time job.
Like I said, they're huge issue is not being able to budget at all within their means.
It's easy to say "let them sink," but we've tried that for about a year now. It's hard getting texts from your brother's GF when they literally can't afford food. It's even harder to watch how upset my mom gets about it, so I'm hoping there's something we can do...
It's hard on everyone, but it may be the only way she'll learn. A healthy adult in a developed country is not going to starve if they have to cut rations for a little while.
If you do help, I would tie it to serious conditions. If you ditch one motorcycle, we will give you $200 upon completion of the sale. If you ditch both, $500, etc. If you're going to help them, it needs to be help that pushes them toward a functional financial life.
Bolding this for emphasis to make sure everyone sees this. My OP was about my GF's Facebook post, but the financial problem isn't just with her. It's both of them. They are mutually financially unhealthy and both have bad financial habits. So this should be about approaching both of them, not just my brother's girlfriend.
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IMO- I'd stay out of it.
You've tried helping once. If they get to the point where they are ACTUALLY going to be homeless and/or starve, welcome them into your house and feed them. Otherwise, let them deal with it unless they ask your for advice. Then give them a Dave Ramsey book and back away. (Not a fan of DR really- but he's good for the truly clueless.)
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I'd suggest starting with the cell phone bill. $150 is insane. Look at the superguide on the forums here and find the best prepaid alternative. Even not going super badass they could potentially go with Cricket and get 2.5GB of data a month with unlimited talk and text for $35 (if they autopay). I think if they combined it they could potentially even pay less than $70 that it is if they each get their own. But even without autopay and each getting their own they cut the bill almost in half with no pain.
If they won't even do that then I don't think you have any choice but to let them sink. As the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
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I have a rule that I won't help people financially if their difficulty is solely the result of bad decision making. Getting rid of the two motorcycles is such a brain-dead obvious way to fix their problem that I wouldn't lift a finger for them until they did that.
Also, is $1000/yr normal to insure one car in Ohio? I live in a neighboring state, and I pay about $700/year for two cars.
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But it's not that they "literally cannot afford food", it's that they prioritize $150 a month on phones (WTF) before food.
But if it were my brother (and it's not), I would drop off a bag food every week. A bag of beans ($1), a 5 lb bag of rice ($3). Maybe a large can of tomatoes, some onions, and a veggie if you want to go crazy. For $5 a week you can make sure they don't starve.
Most people who complain about "literally cannot afford food" are not going to be willing to eat rice and beans either. Even when you add tomatoes, onions, veggie, and maybe even chicken.
Unless of course it was purchased at Chipotle.
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If you do help, I would tie it to serious conditions. If you ditch one motorcycle, we will give you $200 upon completion of the sale. If you ditch both, $500, etc. If you're going to help them, it needs to be help that pushes them toward a functional financial life.
This. And simply saying "No" falls into this "pushing them towards a functional financial life" category too.
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Not your circus, not your monkeys, man. Sorry about the situation though - it definitely puts you and your mom in an awkward situation. Best of luck.
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You're reacting emotionally to a situation that is really NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!
These are 2 adults. You're not their mother. If this GF is smart enough to get a college degree she's smart enough to do simple math.
They need to ditch the motorcycles and a few other things that have been noted already.
But, you've admitted that you've already talked to them about all of this and it had NO EFFECT.
That's it. Let it go. Don't listen to the complaints. Don't read the texts. Disengage it.
You're suffering from the delusion that your alleged fiscal wisdom is so compelling and obvious that they'll see the light and resolve their situation. It didn't work the first time you tried that.
Game over.
Stay out of it. If your mother wants to help that's her business.
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You're suffering from the delusion that your alleged fiscal wisdom is so compelling and obvious that they'll see the light and resolve their situation. It didn't work the first time you tried that. Game over.
Stay out of it. If your mother wants to help that's her business.
Amen. Been there, done that, nothing changed so I let it go (which is really really really hard.) They are two able bodied AND EMPLOYED adults, without kids. Unfollow the GF on facebook, and if your brother comes crying to you for money - "I'm sorry, that won't be possible." Recommend that your mother and other sibling do the same.
I'm not saying to cut off your entire relationship with them, but don't engage on the topic of their financial 'hardship'. I have an older sibling that will FOREVER live paycheck to paycheck by the skin of her teeth. It sucks to witness, and I tried to help in the past (repeatedly!), and now I don't even broach the topic of money with her. When we spend time together, we do frugal things (by my choosing) and I leave it at leading by example and mentally wish her luck. I have also decided to never loan/give her money again. At all. Boundaries, man, boundaries!
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I cringed when I saw "Chevrolet Silverado."
I have recommended to many friends to sell their stupid lifted up trucks, but in Missouri it can be viewed as blasphemy because men are 'supposed' to drive trucks.
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I agree with those who recommended staying out of it. As hard as it is, they are still their own family unit, not yours and not your responsibility. Now, if they come asking and begging you for help or advice, you give it to them but clearly on *your* terms and not theirs. Otherwise, confronting them about something they don't consider to be a "problem" (e.g. everything else unrelated to being able to 'afford' food) isn't going to change their perspective. If they come to you though saying "we were wrong, we know we screwed our budget up and that's why we can't afford any food...what should we do?" then you should give your 2cents and then some. Otherwise, it sounds like nothing good will come out of trying to give advice to someone who's just going to make excuses and blame shift every single thing you tell them... not worth the time.
I know it's hard because its your family but ultimately they are still responsible for their own choices.
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They have over 1k/mo going into vehicle payments including 2 that are totally recreation/discretionary, and are complaining about being broke. Yeah...next time i got a whiny message about food i'd probably send back a 1 line 'sell your harleys' and be done with it.
If they're too dumb to see they have easily 600/mo of pure luxuries that can be clipped almost instantly then there's not much helping them. 600 a month buys a lot of food. They are two healthy and educated adults, it's not your job to take care of them...sometimes the only way people change is when they hit rock bottom. You and your mom constantly helping them just enables them.
Look at it this way. They are complaining about even being able to feed themselves and asking you for a handout. They would rather HAVE THEIR MOTHER/BROTHER BUY THEM FOOD than sell a motorcycle. This is implicitly saying that they care more about a recreational device than about family. Give them all the emotional support you want and be willing to help change their ways but dont drop another penny in that bucket.
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They have over 1k/mo going into vehicle payments including 2 that are totally recreation/discretionary, and are complaining about being broke. Yeah...next time i got a whiny message about food i'd probably send back a 1 line 'sell your harleys' and be done with it.
What's most striking to me is the fact that they have 3 dogs. Obviously the dogs are getting fed.
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If they are willing, write up a budget for them, so they can see on paper that they are losing money everything month and why. Then show an alternate budget with simple fixes that lets them have more money(ie: cut the motorcycles, cable, expensive cell phone plans and they save big $$ without really touching their lifestyle). Seeing it written down might make it more "real".
Overall, they obviously need big picture stuff first before you can really start picking at their grocery spending, etc...
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Also, suggesting alternatives instead of nothing might help. Like netflix/library instead of cable. Cricket(as someone else said) instead of the $150 cell phone plan. Etc...
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I'm sorry to say this, but you cannot help them right now. Just like you can't help an alcoholic who won't admit he has a drinking problem. They don't (won't) recognize they have a spending problem. Any advice will go in one ear and out the other; any money or food will be consumed with nothing to show for it. You can't do anything except disengage from their financial life--and help your mother to disengage as much as she can.
Your brother's already been through bankruptcy once; the GF's parents have cut her off; and they still haven't honestly acknowledged the real problem. An hour of advice or a sample budget from you is not going to make them change, any more than a gift of $100 will solve their problems.
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Does she ever post pictures of her hog or her two new vehicles?
I would respond to that post about not being able to buy soup with a comment about how you wish you could one day afford an awesome motorcycle/truck like she has, and then respond to the motorcycle/truck post with a comment about how happy you are too keep buying groceries for her since she obviously can't afford to feed herself. Make it obvious the comments are switched, maybe she'll get the hint.
Still too confrontational? Tell her to ride that Harley over to the food bank, they give out free food to people in need. Let those folks deliver the bad news.
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I am seeing a very similar situation with a relative and his wife. She's always liking Nordstrom's on Facebook. His mother bails them out when they are short of money. I keep my mouth shut. If they ever come to me, I will tell them I will pay for them to go to Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University
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I'm seeing lots of good suggestions so far. Here's a question for the OP: Are you familiar with the friends they hang out with the most? Could these friends possibly be bigger earners with spending habits to match? If so, then maybe your brother and his GF are caught in a keeping-up-with-the-Jones game they cannot win and need to quit.
I can't relate with anyone who rants about food stamp recipients. The benefit for a household of 2 tops out at $357/month maximum and that's only if there is zero income, so you're pretty much living through a personal economic disaster to get it. Meanwhile your brother and GF are at or just above U.S. median household income. They desperately need to see the math.
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Thanks all for the advice thus far. The "disengage" advice is easy practically (my brother and I don't give them anything) but very hard emotionally. My mom gets so upset about it...like she failed or something...I just don't know how to get her to disengage I guess, which is why I was looking for practical advice.
Does she ever post pictures of her hog or her two new vehicles?
I would respond to that post about not being able to buy soup with a comment about how you wish you could one day afford an awesome motorcycle/truck like she has, and then respond to the motorcycle/truck post with a comment about how happy you are too keep buying groceries for her since she obviously can't afford to feed herself. Make it obvious the comments are switched, maybe she'll get the hint.
Still too confrontational? Tell her to ride that Harley over to the food bank, they give out free food to people in need. Let those folks deliver the bad news.
This "food stamps" post was the first time my mom or I almost posted anything. I rarely use Facebook--literally 1-2 times per month--but my mom pointed it out to me. She almost posted, "You could afford food if you sold your bikes" (quoting that from a text she sent me). I almost posted something as well. In the end, my mom said it would be too confrontational.
Like I've been saying, it's easy to say "disengage," but it's very hard to watch.
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I'm seeing lots of good suggestions so far. Here's a question for the OP: Are you familiar with the friends they hang out with the most? Could these friends possibly be bigger earners with spending habits to match? If so, then maybe your brother and his GF are caught in a keeping-up-with-the-Jones game they cannot win and need to quit.
I can't relate with anyone who rants about food stamp recipients. The benefit for a household of 2 tops out at $357/month maximum and that's only if there is zero income, so you're pretty much living through a personal economic disaster to get it. Meanwhile your brother and GF are at or just above U.S. median household income. They desperately need to see the math.
I'm not sure about their friends as much as they've entered the real world and thought they could live the same standard of living as their parents. My dad is an attorney that easily makes six figures, has a nice truck, and has a Harley. I haven't met GF's dad, but he seems like a good guy/blue collar kind of dad, and he owns a bike as well. So throw those in and boom, each of them have motorcycles.
Thanks for the info about food stamps.
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Thanks all for the advice thus far. The "disengage" advice is easy practically (my brother and I don't give them anything) but very hard emotionally. My mom gets so upset about it...like she failed or something...I just don't know how to get her to disengage I guess, which is why I was looking for practical advice.
Does she ever post pictures of her hog or her two new vehicles?
I would respond to that post about not being able to buy soup with a comment about how you wish you could one day afford an awesome motorcycle/truck like she has, and then respond to the motorcycle/truck post with a comment about how happy you are too keep buying groceries for her since she obviously can't afford to feed herself. Make it obvious the comments are switched, maybe she'll get the hint.
Still too confrontational? Tell her to ride that Harley over to the food bank, they give out free food to people in need. Let those folks deliver the bad news.
This "food stamps" post was the first time my mom or I posted anything. I rarely use Facebook--literally 1-2 times per month--but my mom pointed it out to me. She almost posted, "You could afford food if you sold your bikes" (quoting that from a text she sent me). I almost posted something as well. In the end, my mom said it would be too confrontational.
Like I've been saying, it's easy to say "disengage," but it's very hard to watch.
I know what you mean. It's like watching something so dear to you crumble right in front of your eyes. My wife feels this way about her parents, but at some point boundaries need to be set. As far as figuring out what those boundaries are, I think there's been lots of good advice on all sides of the spectrum here. Hopefully enough for you to make an informed decision about what you want to do. Maybe it is too extreme to "cut them off" and "have nothing to do with them" but I think that can still happen to a certain extent and maybe in different contexts. e.g. if they ask for money, scrutinize why and what they're going to use it for. Tell them you're not going to let them borrow anything unless they do XYZ, and make them stick to their word. But if there is a repeated pattern of dumb-a behavior and resulting endless complaints revolving around blame-shifting, you're going to have to draw the line somewhere. Like what a couple others have said, this is likely what caused the GF's family to cut her off... like, you can't help someone who has intentionally buried their head in the sand, really likes it, and isn't going to listen to you. I guess you could forcibly remove them, but I would liken that to confronting them dead-on (and even then, confronting them may not actually do anything and could even make them go into further denial). Offering alternatives, as AZDude suggested, might be a good way to start out... I don't know if you've already done this but maybe start in one area (mobile phone should be easy...
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But it's not that they "literally cannot afford food", it's that they prioritize $150 a month on phones (WTF) before food.
But if it were my brother (and it's not), I would drop off a bag food every week. A bag of beans ($1), a 5 lb bag of rice ($3). Maybe a large can of tomatoes, some onions, and a veggie if you want to go crazy. For $5 a week you can make sure they don't starve.
Most people who complain about "literally cannot afford food" are not going to be willing to eat rice and beans either. Even when you add tomatoes, onions, veggie, and maybe even chicken.
Unless of course it was purchased at Chipotle.
That made me laugh hard enough to scare the kids.
Are you significantly older or just slightly older than them? What does your outward lifestyle (and of your brother/mother/her in-laws) look like to them? What are their friends lifestyles like?
My husband is the oldest in his family. His youngest brother would constantly try to "keep up appearance" with us, even though we were in completely different phases of life. It isn't like our life was glamorous, but when you do not have money for an item, that item becomes glamorous. It caused the younger brother to get into financial trouble, which affected his parents (both financially and emotionally).
If you want to help them, be ready for a long journey. Currently they don't want a budget, they don't want to sell their bikes, they will grudgingly sell their pricey vehicles. You need to find out why they want these items, what problems they're trying to mask (insecurity, personal expectations of themselves), and offer advice to guide them towards what makes them truly happy - while knowing that the ultimate decisions still belong to them.
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Confrontation is a good thing sometimes. Rather than let this simmer for years until it finally blows up, might be better to attack it now, accept the short term pain, and then everyone can move on.
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But it's not that they "literally cannot afford food", it's that they prioritize $150 a month on phones (WTF) before food.
But if it were my brother (and it's not), I would drop off a bag food every week. A bag of beans ($1), a 5 lb bag of rice ($3). Maybe a large can of tomatoes, some onions, and a veggie if you want to go crazy. For $5 a week you can make sure they don't starve.
Most people who complain about "literally cannot afford food" are not going to be willing to eat rice and beans either. Even when you add tomatoes, onions, veggie, and maybe even chicken.
Unless of course it was purchased at Chipotle.
And you paid $20 for it (for two)
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This "food stamps" post was the first time my mom or I almost posted anything. I rarely use Facebook--literally 1-2 times per month--but my mom pointed it out to me. She almost posted, "You could afford food if you sold your bikes" (quoting that from a text she sent me). I almost posted something as well. In the end, my mom said it would be too confrontational.
Like I've been saying, it's easy to say "disengage," but it's very hard to watch.
Ah, you just need to use their language when posting to make it less confrontational! "Think positively - you are blessed to have motorcycles! If it ever truly got bad, you could sell them to free up your monthly budget. God always has a plan for you." (add other blessed/God language)
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I have a sibling who lives exactly like this. The problem is she is 40 years old and still financially dependent on my father. You cannot reason with some people. I told my father to give her the boot many years ago and let her learn to live a financially responsible life. But he wouldn't and now he is stuck working himself to death to support her. This is someone who owes tens of thousands of dollars to family members and she's never ever made good on any "loan"--not to family nor to banks/credit lines. Who knows how many friends have been stung.
And yet, to this day, there is always a ready excuse as to why she still needs to buy a newer car rather than using public transportation or riding a bike or even driving an older car. There's every excuse as why she has the full cable package rather than an antenna. I gave up a long time ago trying to reason with her. As she's family, I haven't cut her out of my life--but I've made it clear that the ATM here is closed for business.
So...let your brother and his GF learn their lesson. It may or may not work, but helping them constantly will almost guarantee they will never learn to fend for themselves. Put it in black and white--data in an spreadsheet of how much they can save by deleting/decreasing the bikes, gym memberships, etc. If the hundreds of dollars difference each month doesn't wake them up--then it's their fucking problem. Sorry, if that's harsh, but let's just say I've had an adult lifetime enough of financial idiotic siblings.
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Not your circus, not your monkeys, man. Sorry about the situation though - it definitely puts you and your mom in an awkward situation. Best of luck.
+1
Although...I'd probably give it one more try, if only to save your mom and brother the grief.
"I see you are both struggling. Would you like me to sit down with you and help you with a budget?"
"You're both smart people. Odds are there are some things that you don't "need" as much as you need food, right? Like crossfit, cable, fancy cell phones, a truck. Everyone gets to choose their path. Yours is heading for a cliff. I can tell you how I'd fix it. But ultimately....it is your path."
Bottom line, there are doggie welfare places that will help them with food vet bills. Google it for them since they'll never do it on their own.
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My vote is with what CommonCents said. Make all comments about God and how God has led the way and carried them along the beach by giving them their (insert frivolous crap) so that they have alternative budget items to cut when they really need groceries.
Or ask them what Jesus would do? Suggest that Jesus would sell the motorcycles to buy a gigantic bag of rice to eat and also share with the poor folks on food stamps.
Otherwise, boundaries is all you can do. Don't give them any money, ever, or you reward their bad behavior. Reassure your mom over and over that they are not really going to starve and that she needs to quit worrying about it.
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One more thing before I head home: I do worry a little about whether this will affect my mom's retirement. She and my dad had one of those divorces where both didn't come out well financially. My mom is 58, still carries a significant mortgage and has only $130,000 in retirement assets.
I can't help but think that she will continue to bail my brother and his GF out, and that will hurt her retirement. And then she might need senior care, which my brother and I might have to foot the bill for.
So, I guess what I'm saying with this tangent is that I think this is going to negatively affect my mom and maybe eventually me.
I don't want that to happen so I'm trying really hard to make something...anything...work. It's just exhausting.
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Respond to the facebook post, don't be sensitive, say this:
Between you and my(your) brother, you have a 1 year old $45,000(estimate) truck, a 1 year old car, 2 harleys, and 3 dogs. At least sell the truck(I know he's already selling it, but might as well mention it) and the harleys and get a reasonable car and you'll have plenty of money for other expenses, or wait a year and instead have them get repoed. Food stamps go to people that make less than half what you make, mainly to single parents. If you aren't smart enough to manage your own finances, how can you complain about a MUCH more complex system of finances?
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.... really depend on your family culture and your culture in general.
if it is more 'American' - stay out of it, they are adults and I find very little to be upset about. actually it is pretty funny - not able to put food in the fridge but own two cards and two motorcycles? only in America!
of your culture, upbringing, religion, mindset, whatever is more like where I came from - we would consider it part of our business and have that conversation, publish shaming, head smacking event(s). good and bad from both perspectives - could be very supportive (massive safety net as there is nothing more important than family) or suffocating (if your standards want different degree of freedom).
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"Respond to the facebook post, don't be sensitive, say this:"
no.. why have that conversation on facebook of all places? you do not know their phone number? email? never see each over since you are posted in Antarctica and they work on North Pole? Stay away from Facebook (which I think is a great advice in general)
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It's always very hard emotionally to set boundaries. I don't have specific practical advice about it, but there are books on the subject.
Just a thought which may not be applicable to your particular family dynamics: Is there a chance your mother would like you to be the bad cop--to say the blunt things that she doesn't allow herself to say? If so, would you be willing to play this role?
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"Respond to the facebook post, don't be sensitive, say this:"
no.. why have that conversation on facebook of all places? you do not know their phone number? email? never see each over since you are posted in Antarctica and they work on North Pole? Stay away from Facebook (which I think is a great advice in general)
100% agree that Facebook is the wrong way to be "confrontational." If anything, the public humiliation would trigger defense mechanisms that would only make this worse.
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I might be inclined to talk to your brother...say something like "look, this is really upsetting Mom, would you like me to sit down and help you with setting up a budget?". Or pass on a Dave Ramsey book or something similar, as others have suggested (maybe with the line of "this really helped me"...even if you haven't actually used DR, or whoever). Honestly, it is not really your place to be "bad cop". If you are worried about having to bail your Mom out later, how about telling her that? Like, "hey, I don't agree with how my brother is living right now, I'm not going to bail him out, and I'm not going to bail YOU out later for having bailed him out". Or maybe just be a bit gentler and say "hey mom, I know you are worried but I think right now the best thing you can be doing is looking out for yourself."
As an ex-grad student, I am pretty shocked at what people who are students seem to think they can afford. A car AND a motorbike? AND a fancy gym membership? All of those would seem like obvious no-no's to me. An old beater car is really the most luxurious transport option I think a graduate student can justify (and even that's a stretch in many cases).
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I might be inclined to talk to your brother...say something like "look, this is really upsetting Mom, would you like me to sit down and help you with setting up a budget?". Or pass on a Dave Ramsey book or something similar, as others have suggested (maybe with the line of "this really helped me"...even if you haven't actually used DR, or whoever). Honestly, it is not really your place to be "bad cop". If you are worried about having to bail your Mom out later, how about telling her that? Like, "hey, I don't agree with how my brother is living right now, I'm not going to bail him out, and I'm not going to bail YOU out later for having bailed him out". Or maybe just be a bit gentler and say "hey mom, I know you are worried but I think right now the best thing you can be doing is looking out for yourself."
As an ex-grad student, I am pretty shocked at what people who are students seem to think they can afford. A car AND a motorbike? AND a fancy gym membership? All of those would seem like obvious no-no's to me. An old beater car is really the most luxurious transport option I think a graduate student can justify (and even that's a stretch in many cases).
I wouldn't say anything about his moms finances or worrying about having to bail her out. The best way to get her to stop is by telling her he needs to learn to be fiscally responsible for himself
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I am more worried about your Mom than the people of your generation.
Keep reassuring your Mom. Listen to what she says patiently so she can express her concerns to you but be very firm that she needs to save as much as she can for her own retirement and not enable these two. Tell her the truth: that they will never ever learn to manage their money if she ever gives them any. No matter how pathetic their story, she needs to tell them "I'm proud of you and I know you are smart, and so I'm sure you will figure it out." That's what she should say whenever they say they can't pay a bill, have no food, or need money for this or that.
Really I have absolutely no sympathy for you SIL. What an imbecile. I would be totally shamed and embarrassed to have what she has and asking for money from anyone for food. And then she turns around and blast people who are so poor and in such dire straits that they need food stamps, like somehow it's their fault that she is a whiny, entitled moron.
Some people are not really into reading, and for them Dave Ramsey's books won't help. But, he's made lots of youtube videos and has a radio show and lots of podcasts with case studies on people calling in. Those might be helpful here. He's not for everyone, but I think his model could help these two.
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I cringed when I saw "Chevrolet Silverado."
I have recommended to many friends to sell their stupid lifted up trucks, but in Missouri it can be viewed as blasphemy because men are 'supposed' to drive trucks.
Are you kidding? *I* cringed when I saw Masters degree in psychology.U"
There are lotsa wannabe counselers out there. Lotsa them. Perhaps the OP has insider knowledge of the track this woman is on toward a professional salary that will allow her to knock the likely students loans into oblivion. I hope so.
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+1 what Zamboni said. The issue is the mom. As long as she bails them out they'll never learn. "Codependent no more" would be a good book for her. It will be a long process to get through to her, but it will be worth it.
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Like I said, they're huge issue is not being able to budget at all within their means.
To me, it sounds like their huge issue is ignorance (about who contributes to society, what contribution is, etc). I'm not sure how you can help them with that. When they sink, though, some of their prejudices will be healed, as they become beneficiaries of those who "don't contribute". At that point, they'll learn to budget, too!
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Something missing from all of this, make sure you acknowledge their frustrations if you do approach them.
Understand, that even though they might be completely financially retarded, they still feel the feelings they have. Those are very real to them RIGHT NOW. If you approach them and dismiss these as being whiney or stupid or lame or even just don't acknowledge them you are going to immediately put them in a defensive mode which will make meaningful advice impossible.
You don't have to condone the feelings, but you can acknowledge them as being real.
"That must feel hopeless" or "you must be so frustrated" can cause a lot of relational empathy in a situation like this.
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I would not help. If someone with all those toys asks me for butter and pasta, I would suggest they get rid of a few toys, because that is much easier than supporting them during retirement years, seriously.
Or, maybe there is a drug problem or something, there is usually a reason someone is so far out of touch with reality. Sorry, just sayin.
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What is interesting is the Mom's post that their opportunities are so limited. Talk about enabling and encouraging the poor me syndrome.
Unfollow them on Facebook. You don't need the grief.
Have a heart to heart with your mom. tell her she is a good parent and letting go could be the best thing to help them. Give her a copy of codependent no more by Melody Beatty. Great classic on how to let go of being an enabler.
And just saying, I have siblings in their sixties who worked their whole lives and barely have a pot to piss in due to bad spending decisions. And other siblings who are FI living in nice houses and living a very comfortable life. Some people won't learn no matter what. Do your best to be a good example, be kind but firm and if they ask for help, give it in the form of advice.
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They have no kids, right? Nobody blameless is going without formula or diapers or food because of parental stupidity? Nobody has a debilitating addiction or medical issue that impairs their ability to make decisions responsibly? Because if that's the case, I would just let them sink. They are going to have to learn some time, and it sounds like the girlfriend's family is of that mindset, which would explain why they cut her off.
Thank you for getting to that in the first response post! Why the heck would you intervene? They don't want it, and they'll just suck you down with them as you enable them along the way.
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Call her out on the bullshit. Just say what you feel. But say it in a rational logical argument
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They have no kids, right? Nobody blameless is going without formula or diapers or food because of parental stupidity? Nobody has a debilitating addiction or medical issue that impairs their ability to make decisions responsibly? Because if that's the case, I would just let them sink. They are going to have to learn some time, and it sounds like the girlfriend's family is of that mindset, which would explain why they cut her off.
Good question. Nope, no kids or mental illnesses or disabilities. Brother is 28 and his girlfriend is 24, although I think she's always been in school and never had a full time job.
Like I said, they're huge issue is not being able to budget at all within their means.
It's easy to say "let them sink," but we've tried that for about a year now. It's hard getting texts from your brother's GF when they literally can't afford food. It's even harder to watch how upset my mom gets about it, so I'm hoping there's something we can do...
You've just taken on their problem. It's not your's to solve. Somebody needs a facepunch and it ain't just your bro and his GF.
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Good foresight on seeing how this may financially impact you down the road.
It sounds like you need another intervention and the attempt at Christmas wasn't strong enough.
Of course, everyone you've mentioned is an adult who makes their own decisions and lives with the consequences. You can only control your own decisions. So just remember at the end of the day, even if you try, you may fail, in which case you should be ready to either cut some of these people off (emotionally challenging) or succumb back to the status quo (financially challenging and enotionally challenging).
That said,
I'd suggest formulating a plan with your mom and other people affected by your older brother & GF. Try to agree on what they need and unify on a path forward. I.e. everyone agrees no more money, no handouts until such and such conditions are met: no eating-out for a week, sell bikes, read a personal finance book (and test them on the content if you have to), pay off a debt, build a budget. As they meet certain conditions, attach carrots like, "a trip to the grocery store", "a family dinner", "a payment to mom for your debt" (DO NOT give them money). It may help to write up a contract and sign with everyone. Putting it on paper can really make some things plainly clear. It will help emotionally when they come asking for handouts: "did you accomplish anything off the contract yet? No? Then you know the agreement." If you do get your mom and other family to agree, make sure to support each other so no one caves in and starts giving them handouts.
At the end of the day, they blame other people for their own decisions and problems. As long as that is the case, they will need tough love. It won't be easy, they will also start to blame you, but from everything you've said, it will be worth the effort for you and your family.
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But it's not that they "literally cannot afford food", it's that they prioritize $150 a month on phones (WTF) before food.
But if it were my brother (and it's not), I would drop off a bag food every week. A bag of beans ($1), a 5 lb bag of rice ($3). Maybe a large can of tomatoes, some onions, and a veggie if you want to go crazy. For $5 a week you can make sure they don't starve.
Most people who complain about "literally cannot afford food" are not going to be willing to eat rice and beans either. Even when you add tomatoes, onions, veggie, and maybe even chicken.
Unless of course it was purchased at Chipotle.
That made me laugh hard enough to scare the kids.
Are you significantly older or just slightly older than them? What does your outward lifestyle (and of your brother/mother/her in-laws) look like to them? What are their friends lifestyles like?
My husband is the oldest in his family. His youngest brother would constantly try to "keep up appearance" with us, even though we were in completely different phases of life. It isn't like our life was glamorous, but when you do not have money for an item, that item becomes glamorous. It caused the younger brother to get into financial trouble, which affected his parents (both financially and emotionally).
If you want to help them, be ready for a long journey. Currently they don't want a budget, they don't want to sell their bikes, they will grudgingly sell their pricey vehicles. You need to find out why they want these items, what problems they're trying to mask (insecurity, personal expectations of themselves), and offer advice to guide them towards what makes them truly happy - while knowing that the ultimate decisions still belong to them.
Oh, and if they sell their bikes or make other changes on your advice don't be surprised when they blame you the next time they fail. Because they will.
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Do they each need a Harley and a car? lol. Crossfit? The reason she can't eat or has to scrape together change to eat is because they spend money on shit they don't need! I don't think welfare was designed for people who have an expensive crossfit membership, two cars, two motorcyles, etc. While I'm not a big fan of the welfare system other than for temporary assistance to get back on your feet, though many people use it as a way of life, popping out kids for more benefits, but in this case her argument is flawed and makes no case against welfare, AT ALL.
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Two things stand out to me:
1) If they are subsisting on pasta and butter part of the time, how much good is the Crossfit membership really doing them? Exercise like that, you need protein, not day-before-payday junk meals.
2) Do they actually know how to cook? Either of them? It's amazing how many people can't do much more than "throw tray in microwave/oven." The hours your brother puts in, he probably doesn't have much time for it, but what are either of them actually doing for dinner when they do have money?
Part of me says they need to feel enough pain long enough to be motivated to change on their own, and they aren't there yet. Part of me says that throwing a few very basic foodstuffs their way might be a decent compromise- but it's only effective if they actually know what to do with the stuff. If they don't know how to cook, invite them to "help" on a cooking ahead/once a month cooking session where you give them some of the finished foodstuffs as payment/indirect financial help. They get a lesson in cheap cooking, a couple of cheap meals ready-made, and you get kitchen-grunt help. And you're not giving them cash. And who knows where the conversations will lead while you're doing so? Just remember that they are captive audience at that moment and don't bring up the awkward topics yourself.
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They are fortunate in a way. There are many people struggling, who have no or used vehichle, nothing they can cut. They have plenty of areas they can cut. Sounds like they are also both so busy (brother works overtime all the time), sister in law both goes to school and works) that they are not thinking properly.
Is there a time to catch them, when they both have day off, space to reflect?
Some good advice is to approach the brother, or both, and say, hey I'm worried about you. I'm concerned about these facebook posts, and would like to help you with your budget. Mother is not getting any younger and won't be around all the time to help. It is also not good for your long term health, to both be putting so much time in overtime, not eating well (I'm assuming) and having stress about money. It is better to get on a budget now to right the ship.
If she is a psychology major she should know about Maslow's hierarchy of needs. First need to cover the essentials, which are food, shelter. Then can move up the hierarchy. Cars. Transportation is needed, but they are spending more than they need to do that, can even use public transportation. Same for phone costs, need to spend the minimal on that.
The motorcycles are not even in the transportation category, in a pleasures/hobby group, which come AFTER food and shelter. Say maybe in the future you both can get to where you can get motorcycles again, but at this time in your life, as you yourself admit you are having trouble FEEDING yourself, you cannot afford the bikes. Same with crossfit. I understand physical health is important to you, but we are during a time in history we have loads of free information on the internet, on videos, etc to get healthy exercise and activity routines. And again say, once you are not in debt (including school loans) you can then decide where your excess money goes to. THEN you can add something back in.
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They have no kids, right? Nobody blameless is going without formula or diapers or food because of parental stupidity? Nobody has a debilitating addiction or medical issue that impairs their ability to make decisions responsibly? Because if that's the case, I would just let them sink. They are going to have to learn some time, and it sounds like the girlfriend's family is of that mindset, which would explain why they cut her off.
+1 I don't think anyone should do anything - about the Facebook post, about the texts, about their budget and their problems. Obviously they have not learned from prior assistance - so stop giving it. You don't have to be upset or stressed out about the mess they are making of their lives - because they are adults and it is their lives, not yours. Just distance yourself from the issue.
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Careful when telling people to stop doing crossfit. "You'll get the whole it's for my health and I don't care what the cost is I'm paying for it" shpeal. You might infuriate them and not be able to talk about other areas. Although I'm sure the same could go for some people and there harleys.
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Careful when telling people to stop doing crossfit. "You'll get the whole it's for my health and I don't care what the cost is I'm paying for it" shpeal. You might infuriate them and not be able to talk about other areas. Although I'm sure the same could go for some people and there harleys.
Good point, but HazelStone also has a good point in that CrossFit *should* coincide with a healthy diet, not pasta & butter... perhaps the OP can use this as a driving point and say something like "You know, if you really want that CrossFit membership you should cut other things out (like cable) so you can afford to buy and eat healthier food w/ protein so that you actually benefit from it...otherwise you could seriously injure yourself on top of not getting the results you really want."
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Look, you can offer your help and make suggestions - but I absolutely would not publicly shame them on Facebook. That will not be helpful.
Do not reply to that post.
If you want to reply, it should be: "I'm sorry you're having a hard time. I have faith that things will get better in time."
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Why is anyone still on Facebook is my question?
So here is a solution --- Write a handwritten letter. Sincerely --
State -- I saw your recent post on facebook and it really upset me. I want to help so that you are in a better financial situation. Enclosed is a book that may help you become financially free. (include a used copy of any Dave Ramsey book that looks good)
State -- Dave's teaching have helped millions of people in your situation. If you wish to move forward and attend Dave's Financial Peace University I would be honored to pay the $90 attendance fee. Just let me know which class and I'll send them a check.
Most likely you will receive no reply or even some negative push back. Perhaps she will stop putting stupid stuff on face book. You have then done your job.
There is a 1 in 10 chance in the short term they will take you up on the offer. You are not responsible for their financial lives or for the 100s of millions of similar people in the USA.
Good Luck.
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I would just assume they have a drug problem. The only worry you really have is that you'll end up having to take care of your sweet mom later on once they have depleted her as a resource.
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There's a couple we know and we're convinced that her husband is spending on drugs, women or gambling, because they are perpetually broke, despite live in a low COL area with a high salary, having one very old used car, eating a very cheap diet, wearing cheap clothes and never seeming to go on vacation. Their finances are a mystery to me.
They sound like lots of people who frequent this forum.
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Holy crap, if a family member sent me a bounded copy of Dave Ramsey, I would probably estrange myself from them.
Which would solve OPs problem :)
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There's a couple we know and we're convinced that her husband is spending on drugs, women or gambling, because they are perpetually broke, despite live in a low COL area with a high salary, having one very old used car, eating a very cheap diet, wearing cheap clothes and never seeming to go on vacation. Their finances are a mystery to me.
They sound like lots of people who frequent this forum.
Yeah I was about to say, are you talking about our family? lol. Except for the cheap diet and no vacations.
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I have a rule that I won't help people financially if their difficulty is solely the result of bad decision making. Getting rid of the two motorcycles is such a brain-dead obvious way to fix their problem that I wouldn't lift a finger for them until they did that.
Also, is $1000/yr normal to insure one car in Ohio? I live in a neighboring state, and I pay about $700/year for two cars.
I don't get that either. We pay $600/year for two cars (MD). Now, our cars are 5 and 10 years old, not 1.. We also happen to make more than 2x what they do, but what can you do.
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There's a couple we know and we're convinced that her husband is spending on drugs, women or gambling, because they are perpetually broke, despite live in a low COL area with a high salary, having one very old used car, eating a very cheap diet, wearing cheap clothes and never seeming to go on vacation. Their finances are a mystery to me.
They sound like lots of people who frequent this forum.
Yeah I was about to say, are you talking about our family? lol. Except for the cheap diet and no vacations.
ahem. I think that's the joke...
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Holy crap, if a family member sent me a bounded copy of Dave Ramsey, I would probably estrange myself from them.
Which would solve OPs problem :)
Well the OP did ask for ideas? Don't know what you have against Dave. Even he would say "you can lead a horse to water." The idea here was to give a concrete solution to a problem that they very publicly put out on facebook. In essence her post was a cry for help, even if that isn't what she intended.
Dave has saved literally millions of people in the situation mentioned here. Nothing wrong with his ideas for getting your financial shit together. Sure he isn't on the advanced track that MMM forum reader aspire to, but he sure knows how to sell those baby steps.
I double down on my suggestion. Send them the Dave book and the ball is in their court. Like I said, maybe a 10% hope it would work. Yeah, and maybe they won't talk with your for 10 years. Just about the time your retire.
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Your mom is the person you should be concerned about & try to help. Moms often have a hard time getting out of rescue mode or somehow feeling guilty.
When my mother was in her late 60s (now deceased), she came to me crying because two of my very adult sibs were still charging on her credit card account. At one point, they were all in the same house, divided into 2 apartments, & she let them be authorized users since both apparently had terrible or nonexistent credit. They paid up when they were all face to face, but when the house was sold & they all moved to different states, they kept charging but stopped reimbursing her. She kept paying their charges over a long time, but finally had too much debt by the time she moved to my location. I was astonished -- why didn't she remove them from her account, let alone bug them for their debt? She apparently was very afraid of them needing the card for an actual emergency. Looking at all their charges revealed no emergencies at all, just a lot of very indulgent purchases like restaurant meals & flowers. She knew she couldn't afford it, yet could not bring herself to stop them. However, she did ask me to be the bad guy. I was so mad at the 2 sibs that I did it; I wrote a letter that told them that the gig was up & the bank was closed, & copied my other 2 sibs so they'd know & not get similar ideas. The guilty parties were furious but wanted continued contact with their mom. By this time Mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer & directed in her will that the sibs' debt be deducted from their share of her insurance fund at her employment. This meant they got nothing but their debts to her were paid, which settled things for the rest of us.
I completely agree that no money should be lent or given (same result in the end). You or your mom must not reward their irresponsible decisions or pay for their so-called lack of opportunity. However, showing them how to "fish" in the form of a cooking lesson & a free meal could be helpful if they are open to this suggestion.
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Your mom is the person you should be concerned about & try to help. Moms often have a hard time getting out of rescue mode or somehow feeling guilty.
The OP said that mom feels as though she has failed, and therefore wants to help them out. Maybe she's using the same tools and patterns that helped get them in the situation they are in, so how could that help them get out?
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Been there, done that, have the grey hairs to show for it. My sister and her gentleman friend are hemorrhaging cash on cigarettes, 20% APR car loan, fancy cable package, and mountains of student loan debt. My uncle has allowed them to move into his 2-bed apartment so they can split rent, but one month in they found ways to blow the savings. In theory they should be saving up to move out of state in a few months but I don't see it happening.
I sympathize with the OP, but the relatives are keenly aware of the spoken and unspoken judgment and any attempt to help them see the light will fail since it will all be received as a lecture about money.
Practice this phrase: "This is not my circus. These are not my monkeys"
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These are two grown ass adults. If they wish to squander their income, that is their problem.
This has nothing to do with you. I wouldn't talk to them about their finances at all. This is their problem, and you are making it yours.
Turn your sil off on your facebook feed.
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Your mom is the person you should be concerned about & try to help. Moms often have a hard time getting out of rescue mode or somehow feeling guilty.
The OP said that mom feels as though she has failed, and therefore wants to help them out. Maybe she's using the same tools and patterns that helped get them in the situation they are in, so how could that help them get out?
Yeah. Instead of working on the brother, I'd work with the rest of the family to present a united front with how to handle them. Meaning, if they come asking for butter and noodles/cash from anyone, the answer will always be the same; that could be anything from, here's the number of a local foodshelf or, I'll help you sell your motorcycle on craigslist. This should also help Mom out with her feelings of guilt because now there's a plan.
These are two grown adults with families that love them. They aren't going to end up on the street, but they should feel some pain from their bad choices. You want to spend over a 1,000 a month on vehicles?? Then YEP, you're going to be working some overtime or eating some ramen. Tough love is still love.
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Here's my anecdote: my in-laws were in a world of pain when my wife and I first got married. They started defaulting on their home mortgage, had over $10k of credit card debt, and would constantly overdraft and incur fees from their checking accounts. Not to mention paying credit cards late and incurring more fees. Another thing they thought was a good idea was to never fully pay off their credit cards because they thought they'd improve their credit score by holding a constant balance very month. So they'd pay off like $50-100 a month or whatever. All this on absolutely zero retirement savings (outside of any cash they may have hoarded up somewhere)...
At some point they asked us to lend them money, promising us to pay them back. My wife felt obligated because they paid for a lot of her stuff (some car payments, car insurance, phone, etc) while she was still at home with them and also raised her. So when we loaned them $10k, she basically told them to not regard $5k of it because they had paid for a lot of her other stuff (they've probably 'paid' the $5k back in smaller increments or via other ways but we haven't really tracked and just counted it as a gift to them). But we also brought the hammer down and told them they need to play by our rules if we're gonna lend money to them... and they did for the most part. We went in and helped them cut costs - we cut cable for them, got them onto PagePlus, and got them to pay off their credit card debt as soon as possible. The thing that gets me most is that they have a CPA and "friend" who helps them with their personal and business taxes and likely offers some financial advice - I'm pretty sure he knows that they were in this situation, yet offered no helpful advice to them. At one point my wife that heard that he supposedly would just tell them stuff like "spend and enjoy your money however you want!" what a d!ck... Anyway, they're in a much better place now after we also pushed them to refi their home. They still make dumb moves sometimes (like late payments, overdrafts, and frivolous purchases) but it's not nearly as bad as before. Some purchases are just a result of emotion and easy-swaying by friends and salesmen who claim to be their friends - they hear from friends about how this certain product or item is so good and how they should buy it and it's a chain-reaction thing. They're exactly the type who lives paycheck to paycheck. They also like to hoard a lot of cash as well because they don't trust the govt or banks, stating that they could all take it away from them... :T It's one of the worst combinations of mentalities to deal with when it comes to the "inept at finances" department but I think my wife's concern for them overrides the trouble and most boundaries that should probably have been set. But sometimes when it comes to family, there are few to no boundaries.
All that said, someone who is so stubborn and set in his or her ways, is going to have a lot of trouble with change. Even with countless "come to Jesus" meetings and "I see the light" moments where they finally realize they're in the wrong, they'll still revert back to their frivolous tendencies no doubt.
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ReadySet:
The majority response is to just back away. But when it is family that is much easier said than done. Especially as you said that you are afraid that your mother will keep bailing them out. Option 1) is keep away and watch the fall. The other option is to get actively involved and put contingencies on the assistance. Every bit of help comes with strings and constant nagging. This approach sucks for everyone involved, but it can work. I’m thinking of someone I know who has done this. It’s a slow process but it can work. If walking away is not practical get together with you mother, make a plan on how you will bring it up, then dive in and get way too involved in their problems.
Some people just have to be taught. Some people will get their acts together when faced with scrutiny. Some people when treated like charity cases will get the guilt trip going and pull their heads out of the sand.
This could backfire and if you get way involved and they still blame everyone but themselves, then you get to watch the explosion from close up. But if you emotionally can't walk away, then do the opposite and dive in.
If this is not over-stepping, could it be that bad money management is on both sides of your bother & his wife's families? If your mother is not that great off, and her family has just walked away, my guess is with their ages, they probably don't know better. Yes, yes they are adults, but really not everyone has great families that teach them how to budget and get their acts together. Some people really just don't know, and if you are immersed in too much advertisement / media what they are doing seems like what is expected. (If it was me, I would make #1 be cutting cable / TV, these are people that are swayed by advertisements and need to learn to separate actual reality from expectations).
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Are you significantly older or just slightly older than them? What does your outward lifestyle (and of your brother/mother/her in-laws) look like to them? What are their friends lifestyles like?
My husband is the oldest in his family. His youngest brother would constantly try to "keep up appearance" with us, even though we were in completely different phases of life. It isn't like our life was glamorous, but when you do not have money for an item, that item becomes glamorous. It caused the younger brother to get into financial trouble, which affected his parents (both financially and emotionally).
This is an interesting conclusion, but I don't buy it at all. I'm the youngest of 5 and I was the dead-last person in my family (in real years, not just comparatively) to take any luxury. My siblings used to tell me to buy a decent car or some other luxury item and I'd always justify my choices by saying that I couldn't really afford that long-term, so I didn't want to start getting used to the finer things in life until I could afford them forever. I'm in my 40s now, and I still play that game with them for certain things, I've bought into the "I deserve it" philosophy for others (punch me now), and for others, I'm finally able to articulate the mustachian philosophy that I'm prioritizing what I want to buy with how I prefer to spend my time.
To the OP, I feel for you. My eldest sibling declared bankruptcy recently and it was very difficult to watch it happen, but I realized (and was able to convince my mom) that there was no way to pull them out of where they were without their total commitment. My family agreed that bankruptcy was imminent and any money provided on the way down would be wasted. So focus on when they hit bottom -- either bankruptcy or when they come to you ready to follow your advice and then, and only then should you lend a financial hand if you choose to. Try to convince your mom that any money given to them now just goes down the same rat-hole as the rest of their funds, so save it for when it can actually do some good.
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Another way of framing it when it comes to enabling family members is drawing the parallel with drug users.
You can tell YOURSELF that you are giving them money for food or rent or whatever but at the end of the day - whatever money you give them enables them to feed their addiction.
It is the same with money. Would your mom feel better cutting them off if she looked at the big picture beyond the "butter and pasta" and realized that she is basically paying for their motorbikes/gas guzzlers and other expensive things she wouldn't even buy for herself?
Are you okay subsidizing their expensive lifestyle? Working through the idea that you are doing something like "helping with food" and realize in the bigger picture - you directly funding their big wasteful purchases.
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Are you significantly older or just slightly older than them? What does your outward lifestyle (and of your brother/mother/her in-laws) look like to them? What are their friends lifestyles like?
My husband is the oldest in his family. His youngest brother would constantly try to "keep up appearance" with us, even though we were in completely different phases of life. It isn't like our life was glamorous, but when you do not have money for an item, that item becomes glamorous. It caused the younger brother to get into financial trouble, which affected his parents (both financially and emotionally).
This is an interesting conclusion, but I don't buy it at all. I'm the youngest of 5 and I was the dead-last person in my family (in real years, not just comparatively) to take any luxury. My siblings used to tell me to buy a decent car or some other luxury item and I'd always justify my choices by saying that I couldn't really afford that long-term, so I didn't want to start getting used to the finer things in life until I could afford them forever. I'm in my 40s now, and I still play that game with them for certain things, I've bought into the "I deserve it" philosophy for others (punch me now), and for others, I'm finally able to articulate the mustachian philosophy that I'm prioritizing what I want to buy with how I prefer to spend my time.
Oh, don't get me wrong. Not every youngest child is a spender. My husband's brother was always the impulsive child, regardless of birth order. Using the drug example, seeing his older siblings obtain material possessions was a high that he couldn't resist. He is much better now, but it took lots of tough love from all family members to get him away from the destructive lifestyle.
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In my 20s, my parents gave me a handwritten letter used the phrase, "It's time to start attending church with [DW]. How well do you think that went over with me? Do you think I am now attending church?
Anyone else want to hear the rest of this story?
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I would offer advice once. If it is rejected out of hand, do not offer any more.
However, anytime thereafter, when they want to moan about their poor finances, say, you know what to do about that/what my opinion is...and change the subject.
My mother loves to complain and is not one to make changes to fix her situation. So I refuse to discuss it anymore and my blood pressure stays low :)
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I think I would also change settings on Facebook so you don't see all of her posts. I'm not an active Facebook user, but I did get emails whenever my SIL posted a photo in a restaurant with a big glass of wine or a cocktail, or a happy hour menu, etc. I knew I couldn't keep my mouth shut forever, so I changed settings or unfriended her or whatever it's called.
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I think your mother would benefit from reading The Millionaire Next Door. There's a fair amount in there about the effects of having parents that give handouts to adult children. You wouldn't have to say "read this, before you give more money to my brother." It could just be a discussion about your own frugality, and saying you thought it was a good read, and when she gets to those parts she can draw her own conclusions.
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Stay out of the Pitty Party. You can't win. Say nothing. R U N.
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Another way of framing it when it comes to enabling family members is drawing the parallel with drug users.
You can tell YOURSELF that you are giving them money for food or rent or whatever but at the end of the day - whatever money you give them enables them to feed their addiction.
It is the same with money. Would your mom feel better cutting them off if she looked at the big picture beyond the "butter and pasta" and realized that she is basically paying for their motorbikes/gas guzzlers and other expensive things she wouldn't even buy for herself?
Are you okay subsidizing their expensive lifestyle? Working through the idea that you are doing something like "helping with food" and realize in the bigger picture - you directly funding their big wasteful purchases.
Your post got me to thinking...and I have seen this train wreck many times. it wouldn't surprise me that after gobs and gobs of energy, effort and assistance getting them to see the financial light they go out and purchase a boat. ha
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Careful when telling people to stop doing crossfit. "You'll get the whole it's for my health and I don't care what the cost is I'm paying for it" shpeal. You might infuriate them and not be able to talk about other areas. Although I'm sure the same could go for some people and there harleys.
Good point, but HazelStone also has a good point in that CrossFit *should* coincide with a healthy diet, not pasta & butter... perhaps the OP can use this as a driving point and say something like "You know, if you really want that CrossFit membership you should cut other things out (like cable) so you can afford to buy and eat healthier food w/ protein so that you actually benefit from it...otherwise you could seriously injure yourself on top of not getting the results you really want."
So because someone's diet isn't spot on, exercise still can't be beneficial? It still burns calories, helps the cardiovascular system, builds muscle, plus all the mental benefits.
No one has a perfect diet, I could go on about diet and fitness enough to make most people's heads spin. I balance out the protein in every meal and eat 5 meals a day. Some people have high enough metabolisms that they need to eat extra calories, coming from whatever they can stuff down the chute, just to gain weight. For the longest time it was impossible for me to gain weight off "healthy" food. I was eating 350g protein and 500g carbs just to maintain my weight. I'm sure most of you couldn't fathom how much chicken and rice that is.
That being said, I'm just going off on a tangent. I agree that crossfit is a luxury they can't afford, but I certainly wouldn't use the "diet" angle to go about it.
Not to mention, there are no "cheap" protein sources. Not in regards to the calories per dollar compared to carbohydrates. Most meats, for a bottom of the barrel chicken, is around $4/lb. my gf and I used to get 25+ lbs a week, just of meat (plus I have protein shakes). We have since cut back to closer to 20lbs/wk. not to mention, chicken gets old, and fish or good beef gets expensive. We eat insanely healthy (and a large amount due to fitness) and we spend about 150/wk at the grocery store. I'd love to go organic for my meats, grass fed/free range, but can't justify the extra 200-300/mo grocery bill.
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Let me assure you of one thing: they will NOT starve. This is NOT a life or death situation. Their drama gets rewarded with free food and donations, and what gets rewarded gets repeated.
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Not to mention, there are no "cheap" protein sources. Not in regards to the calories per dollar compared to carbohydrates. Most meats, for a bottom of the barrel chicken, is around $4/lb. my gf and I used to get 25+ lbs a week, just of meat (plus I have protein shakes).
You pay $4/lb for "bottom of the barrel" chicken????
I'm upset if we get chicken breast for more than $2/lb (since we never do) and when we buy whole chickens they are always less than $1/lb.
Chicken is a ridiculously cheap protein source compared to other options. Some fish is also relatively cheap, we get tilapia fillets for about $2.75/lb at aldis.
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My wife paid her daughter's insurance and expensive, gotta have, cell phone for 6 years while she was in college. Meanwhile the girl drank Starbucks and had fancy lifestyle choices like nicer vacations than me. I'll be pissed about that for a long time. Sometimes them monkeys become your monkeys.
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If you feel comfortable eating chicken at that price, more power to you.
And I have read too many disgusting things about tilapia I try and stray away. Not to mention it's terrible leftover in my opinion, and eating as much as I do and working as much as I do, I can't eat them all fresh.
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Let me assure you of one thing: they will NOT starve. This is NOT a life or death situation. Their drama gets rewarded with free food and donations, and what gets rewarded gets repeated.
I couldn't agree more.
Her facebook post most likely got her and your brother a lot of negative attention from everyone on there... or it should have anyway. It amazes me that they were even able to get foodstamps.
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So because someone's diet isn't spot on, exercise still can't be beneficial? It still burns calories, helps the cardiovascular system, builds muscle, plus all the mental benefits.
I don't think you get the $200 a month cross-fit benefits if you aren't utilizing a diet that maximizes what you are doing. Sure, exercise is still good- but go for a jog.
Not to mention, there are no "cheap" protein sources. Not in regards to the calories per dollar compared to carbohydrates. Most meats, for a bottom of the barrel chicken, is around $4/lb.
Wow- where do you live?
My grocery store has turkey breast right now for $1.50 a pound; whole pork loins are regularly on sale for $1.77 a pound (not sure what the regular price is, as we buy it when it is $1.77 and it lasts a long time); whole fryer chickens are 88 cents a pound. Fresh (not frozen, which is cheaper) chicken breasts are $2.50 a pound.
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If you feel comfortable eating chicken at that price, more power to you.
And I have read too many disgusting things about tilapia I try and stray away. Not to mention it's terrible leftover in my opinion, and eating as much as I do and working as much as I do, I can't eat them all fresh.
What is that even supposed to mean? That the chicken sold at a higher price is inherently "better"? We pay 1.99/lb for boneless chicken breast and .99/lb for a whole chicken.
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If you feel comfortable eating chicken at that price, more power to you.
But that's the price it is sold at. Am I supposed to offer the store more?
I have never seen chicken at the prices you quote for "bottom of the barrel".
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So because someone's diet isn't spot on, exercise still can't be beneficial? It still burns calories, helps the cardiovascular system, builds muscle, plus all the mental benefits.
I don't think you get the $200 a month cross-fit benefits if you aren't utilizing a diet that maximizes what you are doing. Sure, exercise is still good- but go for a jog.
Not to mention, there are no "cheap" protein sources. Not in regards to the calories per dollar compared to carbohydrates. Most meats, for a bottom of the barrel chicken, is around $4/lb.
Wow- where do you live?
My grocery store has turkey breast right now for $1.50 a pound; whole pork loins are regularly on sale for $1.77 a pound (not sure what the regular price is, as we buy it when it is $1.77 and it lasts a long time); whole fryer chickens are 88 cents a pound. Fresh (not frozen, which is cheaper) chicken breasts are $2.50 a pound.
$200/mo crossfit membership? The OP listed $100 in his description, our local place starts at $80/mo and maxes around $130/mo.
Also, if you think a jog will have the same benefits as someone who weight lifts/crosstrains, just because their diet isn't 100% spot on then you don't know the first thing about diet or fitness.
So, because someone eats pasta, lifting weights will have the same effect as jogging. Thanks for the laugh.
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So because someone's diet isn't spot on, exercise still can't be beneficial? It still burns calories, helps the cardiovascular system, builds muscle, plus all the mental benefits.
I don't think you get the $200 a month cross-fit benefits if you aren't utilizing a diet that maximizes what you are doing. Sure, exercise is still good- but go for a jog.
Not to mention, there are no "cheap" protein sources. Not in regards to the calories per dollar compared to carbohydrates. Most meats, for a bottom of the barrel chicken, is around $4/lb.
Wow- where do you live?
My grocery store has turkey breast right now for $1.50 a pound; whole pork loins are regularly on sale for $1.77 a pound (not sure what the regular price is, as we buy it when it is $1.77 and it lasts a long time); whole fryer chickens are 88 cents a pound. Fresh (not frozen, which is cheaper) chicken breasts are $2.50 a pound.
$200/mo crossfit membership? The OP listed $100 in his description, our local place starts at $80/mo and maxes around $130/mo.
Also, if you think a jog will have the same benefits as someone who weight lifts/crosstrains, just because their diet isn't 100% spot on then you don't know the first thing about diet or fitness.
So, because someone eats pasta, lifting weights will have the same effect as jogging. Thanks for the laugh.
Yeah, yeah , yeah (sorry guys, no one cares about crossfit except people who do crossfit). But please answer all the chicken questions.
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$200/mo crossfit membership? The OP listed $100 in his description, our local place starts at $80/mo and maxes around $130/mo.
Also, if you think a jog will have the same benefits as someone who weight lifts/crosstrains, just because their diet isn't 100% spot on then you don't know the first thing about diet or fitness.
So, because someone eats pasta, lifting weights will have the same effect as jogging. Thanks for the laugh.
I went with $200 a month because of the thread on this board about that. I admit I did not recheck the OP for the price.
I know plenty of people who do cross fit. They will not deviate one bite from their diet, because the cult of cross fit preaches that diet is even more important than exercise. It makes NO SENSE to spend that kind of money on cross fit if you are eating cheap pasta all the time. It's not that their diet isn't 100% spot on- it is that it is utter crap.
There are plenty of ways to work out, including lifting, that don't require cross fit memberships. If you aren't going to put effort into your diet, doing something as extreme as crossfit is a waste of time and money. Diet is a HUGE part of the equation, and if you think you can get benefits of crossfit while eating butter noodles and ramen, then I don't think you know much about diet and fitness.
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OP Update
Boy did this thread take off. Thank you all for the 100+ posts, it's greatly appreciated--there's a ton of great posts about how best to approach this. I've been slammed at work and haven't been able to reply to a lot of these, so here's my best effort to respond to a few of the posts.
If you want to help them, be ready for a long journey. Currently they don't want a budget, they don't want to sell their bikes, they will grudgingly sell their pricey vehicles. You need to find out why they want these items, what problems they're trying to mask (insecurity, personal expectations of themselves), and offer advice to guide them towards what makes them truly happy - while knowing that the ultimate decisions still belong to them.
This post was really, really spot on. We laid everything out at Christmas--you make x, you are spending y (line for line), this is unsustainable--and the only positive thing they have done is sell my older brother's truck (still not complete yet, though).
I can't figure out the why. I honestly think they have this hardcore blue collar mentality that this is the struggle that everyone faces, this is normal, etc. Having cable, cell phones, high car payments--it's all normal for middle class America in 2015.
I have a sibling who lives exactly like this. The problem is she is 40 years old and still financially dependent on my father. You cannot reason with some people. I told my father to give her the boot many years ago and let her learn to live a financially responsible life. But he wouldn't and now he is stuck working himself to death to support her. This is someone who owes tens of thousands of dollars to family members and she's never ever made good on any "loan"--not to family nor to banks/credit lines. Who knows how many friends have been stung.
And yet, to this day, there is always a ready excuse as to why she still needs to buy a newer car rather than using public transportation or riding a bike or even driving an older car. There's every excuse as why she has the full cable package rather than an antenna. I gave up a long time ago trying to reason with her. As she's family, I haven't cut her out of my life--but I've made it clear that the ATM here is closed for business.
So...let your brother and his GF learn their lesson. It may or may not work, but helping them constantly will almost guarantee they will never learn to fend for themselves. Put it in black and white--data in an spreadsheet of how much they can save by deleting/decreasing the bikes, gym memberships, etc. If the hundreds of dollars difference each month doesn't wake them up--then it's their fucking problem. Sorry, if that's harsh, but let's just say I've had an adult lifetime enough of financial idiotic siblings.
Harsh words greatly appreciated.
I am more worried about your Mom than the people of your generation.
Keep reassuring your Mom. Listen to what she says patiently so she can express her concerns to you but be very firm that she needs to save as much as she can for her own retirement and not enable these two. Tell her the truth: that they will never ever learn to manage their money if she ever gives them any. No matter how pathetic their story, she needs to tell them "I'm proud of you and I know you are smart, and so I'm sure you will figure it out." That's what she should say whenever they say they can't pay a bill, have no food, or need money for this or that.
100% agree that I need to work on my mom having boundaries before approaching brother and SIL. Right now they have her to lean on. It's a very minor safety net (she gives them $20 after dinner or something), but it's something they rely on and they'll never learn.
Something missing from all of this, make sure you acknowledge their frustrations if you do approach them.
Understand, that even though they might be completely financially retarded, they still feel the feelings they have. Those are very real to them RIGHT NOW. If you approach them and dismiss these as being whiney or stupid or lame or even just don't acknowledge them you are going to immediately put them in a defensive mode which will make meaningful advice impossible.
You don't have to condone the feelings, but you can acknowledge them as being real.
"That must feel hopeless" or "you must be so frustrated" can cause a lot of relational empathy in a situation like this.
I think this is the best post in this thread about the psychology of what's going on with them.
My older brother worked 23 hours in a day--twenty three fucking hours. I wanted to call him Sunday morning and ask, "Aren't you tired? Aren't you frustrated? Are all your toys worth it? You realize the only reason you have to work this much is because of your toys, right?"
Careful when telling people to stop doing crossfit. "You'll get the whole it's for my health and I don't care what the cost is I'm paying for it" shpeal. You might infuriate them and not be able to talk about other areas. Although I'm sure the same could go for some people and there harleys.
I think this has been manifested in this thread, haha. The whole Crossfit movement is fine with me, but in my SIL's position, it's not financially viable when the pavement is free and Planet Fitness is $11 per month.
Another way of framing it when it comes to enabling family members is drawing the parallel with drug users.
You can tell YOURSELF that you are giving them money for food or rent or whatever but at the end of the day - whatever money you give them enables them to feed their addiction.
It is the same with money. Would your mom feel better cutting them off if she looked at the big picture beyond the "butter and pasta" and realized that she is basically paying for their motorbikes/gas guzzlers and other expensive things she wouldn't even buy for herself?
Are you okay subsidizing their expensive lifestyle? Working through the idea that you are doing something like "helping with food" and realize in the bigger picture - you directly funding their big wasteful purchases.
Really good post. I will use that language with my mom when I speak with her--you aren't giving them money for food, you are giving them money for their bikes, their cable, etc.
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Here is my plan:
I've read every post in this thread--thank you again. The posters in the "leave them be" corner have a lot of good arguments and perhaps logic on their side. But I really can't live with myself knowing my brother is working 23 hours in a day just to afford all this. I also know it's stressing the hell out of my mom. So I'm going to give this one last shot...
(1) Text older brother. "I saw SIL's post about struggling to afford food. Do you guys need help?"
(2) Transition this conversation to a "let's talk."
(3) Before said talk, have a conversation with mom--make her realize she is enabling them. I'm going to print out this entire thread and make sure she reads this. We talk about my brother all the time so this won't be too out of left field for us.
(4) Have a talk with older brother this weekend (his birthday is the 29th). Acknowledge his frustration.
(5) Have a detailed breakdown prepared (he is a handyman, loves instructions, so I'm thinking of crafting this as a "manual" kind of thing).
(6) In said manual, challenge them to do one thing every two weeks to get out of this. Cancel cable. No random expenses in August. Call and reduce insurance. Sell motorcycles. Etc.
(7) Let them know this will be my last effort. Period. And stick to this.
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Realize, too, that either your brother or his wife might actually be really embarrassed about it all and truly NOT like taking money from others OR like having food stamps. If they truly don't mind, be prepared for this effort you're making not work out. I'm not sure how many conversations you've had with them about it, but this one would have to be different than the other conversations.
If both of them feel entitled, or are buying things to make themselves feel better for having money problems, your plan will end up being so YOU can sleep at night because you know you tried, and very likely won't help them.
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Here is my plan:
I've read every post in this thread--thank you again. The posters in the "leave them be" corner have a lot of good arguments and perhaps logic on their side. But I really can't live with myself knowing my brother is working 23 hours in a day just to afford all this. I also know it's stressing the hell out of my mom. So I'm going to give this one last shot...
(1) Text older brother. "I saw SIL's post about struggling to afford food. Do you guys need help?"
(2) Transition this conversation to a "let's talk."
(3) Before said talk, have a conversation with mom--make her realize she is enabling them. I'm going to print out this entire thread and make sure she reads this. We talk about my brother all the time so this won't be too out of left field for us.
(4) Have a talk with older brother this weekend (his birthday is the 29th). Acknowledge his frustration.
(5) Have a detailed breakdown prepared (he is a handyman, loves instructions, so I'm thinking of crafting this as a "manual" kind of thing).
(6) In said manual, challenge them to do one thing every two weeks to get out of this. Cancel cable. No random expenses in August. Call and reduce insurance. Sell motorcycles. Etc.
(7) Let them know this will be my last effort. Period. And stick to this.
Best of luck. I truly hope you can get through to them. Keep us posted.
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Realize, too, that either your brother or his wife might actually be really embarrassed about it all and truly NOT like taking money from others OR like having food stamps. If they truly don't mind, be prepared for this effort you're making not work out. I'm not sure how many conversations you've had with them about it, but this one would have to be different than the other conversations.
If both of them feel entitled, or are buying things to make themselves feel better for having money problems, your plan will end up being so YOU can sleep at night because you know you tried, and very likely won't help them.
They aren't on food stamps. They have a bunch of toys and "can't afford food," and SIL recently complained about people on food stamps.
Otherwise, very valid point. I can't make this too much about me saying I tried and instead need to try and work out a solution for them.
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I am more worried about your Mom than the people of your generation.
Keep reassuring your Mom. Listen to what she says patiently so she can express her concerns to you but be very firm that she needs to save as much as she can for her own retirement and not enable these two. Tell her the truth: that they will never ever learn to manage their money if she ever gives them any. No matter how pathetic their story, she needs to tell them "I'm proud of you and I know you are smart, and so I'm sure you will figure it out." That's what she should say whenever they say they can't pay a bill, have no food, or need money for this or that.
Really I have absolutely no sympathy for you SIL. What an imbecile. I would be totally shamed and embarrassed to have what she has and asking for money from anyone for food. And then she turns around and blast people who are so poor and in such dire straits that they need food stamps, like somehow it's their fault that she is a whiny, entitled moron.
Some people are not really into reading, and for them Dave Ramsey's books won't help. But, he's made lots of youtube videos and has a radio show and lots of podcasts with case studies on people calling in. Those might be helpful here. He's not for everyone, but I think his model could help these two.
I agree, worry about your mother and others who can't say no, not about your sister. If they don't hit rock bottom they won't get better, and not being able to pay for some of their fixed costs is a win win. They lose the item and they lose the monthly expense.
I would immediately unfriend your SIL on Facebook, and next time she texts for money let her know you are only willing to help if they get rid of some of the fixed expenses, you aren't going to pay for their expensive toys. And then if that continues ask her to stop directly. They already know you are willing to help, they can come to you if they need actual help and not bail outs.
Protect yourself, and that might mean not seeing or being around them for a while. Your relationship can tolerate distance and some separation, but I doubt it can tolerate the current dynamic.
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I hope you'll keep us updated! I'm curious to know how this works out, as I fear I may be facing a similar situation in the not-too-distant future with future in-laws...
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If you feel comfortable eating chicken at that price, more power to you.
But that's the price it is sold at. Am I supposed to offer the store more?
I have never seen chicken at the prices you quote for "bottom of the barrel".
hah! where do you live? Store brand (sketchy looking, with lots of sinew and gunk) fresh chicken breast is maybe $2-3/lb. The basic purdue stuff is $4-6. And the "hand crafted" cruelty/antibiotic free, veggie fed kind my wife prefer to buy now that we have a baby is $8-12/lb!
But hey, still cheaper than almost any restaurant!
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Bookmarking. I have a similar relative who's a toxic mess of terrible financial decisions. Naturally, he blames the President.
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If you feel comfortable eating chicken at that price, more power to you.
But that's the price it is sold at. Am I supposed to offer the store more?
I have never seen chicken at the prices you quote for "bottom of the barrel".
hah! where do you live? Store brand (sketchy looking, with lots of sinew and gunk) fresh chicken breast is maybe $2-3/lb. The basic purdue stuff is $4-6. And the "hand crafted" cruelty/antibiotic free, veggie fed kind my wife prefer to buy now that we have a baby is $8-12/lb!
But hey, still cheaper than almost any restaurant!
1. Do not buy chicken breasts. They are by far the most expensive way to eat chicken. If you want an easy prep alternative, try for boneless, skinless chicken thighs.
2. If you're on the East Coast, see if you have a BJ's Wholesale local. We buy their Harvestland brand (antibiotic free) boneless, skinless thighs for $2.69/lb and they come already pre shrinkwrapped in individual meal portions. I just throw them straight into the freezer.
Interesting. I'll have to look for other chicken options next time. Don't remember seeing boneless thighs in our store. Got the on-the-bone stuff once, and not only was the meat crappy it took me forever to clean it up. So dropped that idea. I know that no chickens have hormones (it's illegal) and don't believe in the organic nonsense, but hard to dissuade the wife.
There's a BJs and a costco ~10 min from us. Walked through once but didn't seem like we could buy much of the stuff we prefer there, and not sure the savings would be worth the $50. And would another store to visit when we already struggle to hit one per week. We only eat bird or fish meat, and not a lot of it really, so not my highest priority.
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hah! where do you live?
Iowa. It's in the username.
(I live in the highest cost of living area of Iowa though. Boo to that.)
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hah! where do you live?
Iowa. It's in the username.
(I live in the highest cost of living area of Iowa though. Boo to that.)
ah ok. To be fair you could just from Iowa, and live in Mogadishu or whatever.
We live in one of the most expensive counties in the country (in MD), so there's that.
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I can't make this too much about me saying I tried and instead need to try and work out a solution for them.
And there was my point... prepare yourself for your plan NOT working. It will depend on their reasons for their actions. If they don't want it, you cant make them want it.
You *seem* to not want to prepare yourself for the worst here, that's why I'm suggesting this mental preparation... plan B, if it never stops, if your plan is not successful, then what?? Keep trying, over and over and over?
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Do not buy chicken breasts. They are by far the most expensive way to eat chicken. If you want an easy prep alternative, try for boneless, skinless chicken thighs.
That's going to be regional. Where I live (upstate NY) I can routinely get boneless, skinless breasts for $1.99/lb and boneless skinless thighs are somewhat more. I like BJs for some things, but their meat can't touch the loss leaders from the major grocery chains.
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More on chicken - I always think the "vegetarian chicken" advertising is hilarious. Free range chickens will eat every bug, worm or grub they can find. Both they and the environment are better for this.
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Here is my plan:
I've read every post in this thread--thank you again. The posters in the "leave them be" corner have a lot of good arguments and perhaps logic on their side. But I really can't live with myself knowing my brother is working 23 hours in a day just to afford all this. I also know it's stressing the hell out of my mom. So I'm going to give this one last shot...
(1) Text older brother. "I saw SIL's post about struggling to afford food. Do you guys need help?"
(2) Transition this conversation to a "let's talk."
[snip]
Good plan, but I caution against asking "do you guys need help?" as I guarantee that will be taken as "do you want free money?" And then they might get mad when it turns out you are not showering them with money from the money tree. Maybe instead try "Do you want to talk?"
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Do not buy chicken breasts. They are by far the most expensive way to eat chicken. If you want an easy prep alternative, try for boneless, skinless chicken thighs.
That's going to be regional. Where I live (upstate NY) I can routinely get boneless, skinless breasts for $1.99/lb and boneless skinless thighs are somewhat more. I like BJs for some things, but their meat can't touch the loss leaders from the major grocery chains.
+1
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Bookmarking. I have a similar relative who's a toxic mess of terrible financial decisions. Naturally, he blames the President.
LOL...Thanks, Obama!
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Here is my plan:
I've read every post in this thread--thank you again. The posters in the "leave them be" corner have a lot of good arguments and perhaps logic on their side. But I really can't live with myself knowing my brother is working 23 hours in a day just to afford all this. I also know it's stressing the hell out of my mom. So I'm going to give this one last shot...
(1) Text older brother. "I saw SIL's post about struggling to afford food. Do you guys need help?"
(2) Transition this conversation to a "let's talk."
[snip]
Good plan, but I caution against asking "do you guys need help?" as I guarantee that will be taken as "do you want free money?" And then they might get mad when it turns out you are not showering them with money from the money tree. Maybe instead try "Do you want to talk?"
His very plan shows that he is not ready to fully solve this problem yet. Its a really hard one to face, especially when you want to be the hero and show everyone how to be fiscally responsible, but dealing with money issues is very diferent than dealing with emotional issues, which is what this is. He'll figure it out, eventually.
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Here is my plan:
I've read every post in this thread--thank you again. The posters in the "leave them be" corner have a lot of good arguments and perhaps logic on their side. But I really can't live with myself knowing my brother is working 23 hours in a day just to afford all this. I also know it's stressing the hell out of my mom. So I'm going to give this one last shot...
(1) Text older brother. "I saw SIL's post about struggling to afford food. Do you guys need help?"
(2) Transition this conversation to a "let's talk."
[snip]
Good plan, but I caution against asking "do you guys need help?" as I guarantee that will be taken as "do you want free money?" And then they might get mad when it turns out you are not showering them with money from the money tree. Maybe instead try "Do you want to talk?"
I agree. Step #1 looks like a direct invitation to ask for a bailout. Instead of "Do you guys need help?" I think "What's happening to your money?" would be the better question. Use a nonjudgmental tone, but the discussion needs to be framed in a way that assumes that they are in the lead of fixing this.
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I have friends and family members that constantly throw money away, then complain about lack of funds. I used to try to help, and eventually realized they didn't want that. Now I say, "Oh man, yeah, that sucks!" Or, "Ah, cripey." Or, "I understand: You really, really wish the province would give you a bus pass without having to do paperwork first." And that's all. It ends the conversation in a peaceful way. They know I can do stuff, they know I'm willing to help when they ask directly for that (same as I teach my kid to do). I don't offer help upon a whine, rant, etc. I reflect back, or murmur compassion. They feel better in the moment, which is all they wanted. If they ever ask me for help, I will give that. But even then, my first question is, "What are you willing to do?" They screen themselves out of most options; it's best for me, though, to know that before I invest a lot of time and effort.
Never do more for a client [friend, family member] than the client [friend, family member] is doing for himself.
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Never do more for a client [friend, family member] than the client [friend, family member] is doing for himself.
Oooh, that's a good one!
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Try "Well, that sounds like a problem. What are you going to do to fix this?"
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A good rule I heard from an old manager is "Every two years- up or out." Next year one of them finds a new promotion, the next year the other one, etc. If they can. $42,000 is a tall order for two adults.
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She's not kidding when she says she could only afford a can of soup. Her parents have (from what I understand) cut her off, as have mine (for the most part). My mom still gives them money every once in a while to keep them afloat.
Im sorry.... right here is the problem!!
My mother in law is the same although not to the same extent since she actually has a nice living... but she always is complaining about not having money yet she seems to like to just throw money away.
Can of soup? The ohter day her daughter was sick and she had me go to the supermarket buy a can of soup of something to her daughter... the cost of that? 4 dollars!!! Yes its low at first sight but it was a can of soup good for ONE SERVING!!
I on the other hand, when I make soup i just buy carrots for example, add water, potatos and salt... it costs me 1 dollar probably to make 2 gallons of soup or so!!
400 dollars seems rather high for 2 people! My wife and I we spend about 200 per month and we actually buy luxury items. Me being portuguese I like prosciutto, and chorizo and sea food and lots of fish so we are constantly buying prosciutto and salmon and other types of fish and sea food which is not cheap when you are living in a state that is landlocked! The difference is, we rarely buy pre-made food or pre packaged.
Also having a new car... are you kidding me? why would anyone spend 600 dollars a month in cars when apparently they cant afford it? buy used! let other people be the suckers to pay the depreciation!
ME personally, I see a car as going from point A to point B i dont care if its flashy... the only car i would ever buy for myself, would be an Aston Martin DB9. And only if I had a few dozen million probably, where i could justify spending 200k in a car. Other than that I have no interest...
Live sparingly, invest and harvest the fruits a few years later.
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Careful when telling people to stop doing crossfit. "You'll get the whole it's for my health and I don't care what the cost is I'm paying for it" shpeal. You might infuriate them and not be able to talk about other areas.
The logic is so flawed on this. They say its a healthier form of lifting, but they use the worst form possible on the majority of the lifts. Its a clever idea. Make people feel like they are doing a real sport, make it trendy, sell reebok. Sponsor $100/month gyms to sell more reebok.
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Being the smart-a$$ that I am, and if it were my brother/GF texting me for food/money, I'd be replying,
"You want to EAT or ride that HARLEY???? It's ALL ABOUT CHOICES, DUDE!"
Seriously, tell them it's all about the choices they make. They are choosing to have both a car and a Harley, and choosing not to eat.
And then "actions have consequences......." You buy things you can't afford, you run low or out of money. Just a fact!
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Old Update Here: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/update-brother's-gf-just-facebook-ranted-about-food-stamps-need-help/msg748965/#msg748965
New Update:
My brother and his GF have actually been doing better. They moved into a cheaper apartment, got rid of GF's car (which was $528/month), got rid of one of the motorcycles,
And now...drumroll...brother's GF is pregnant. My family is blindly happy about the whole thing and all I can think about is how they are going to afford this. Then I feel guilty about even having this feeling.
Ugh. Any more advice and suggestions?
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So what's their financial situation now? If they were $300/mo in the hole before, and they cut over $500/mo in expenses (just on the car--how much are they saving per month by moving to a cheaper place?), then they might well be living within their means.
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Old Update Here: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/update-brother's-gf-just-facebook-ranted-about-food-stamps-need-help/msg748965/#msg748965
New Update:
My brother and his GF have actually been doing better. They moved into a cheaper apartment, got rid of GF's car (which was $528/month), got rid of one of the motorcycles,
And now...drumroll...brother's GF is pregnant. My family is blindly happy about the whole thing and all I can think about is how they are going to afford this. Then I feel guilty about even having this feeling.
Ugh. Any more advice and suggestions?
OMG, I'd start a kid fund, that poor kid.
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So what's their financial situation now? If they were $300/mo in the hole before, and they cut over $500/mo in expenses (just on the car--how much are they saving per month by moving to a cheaper place?), then they might well be living within their means.
It's a little better. They cut the above bills and have a $1,500 emergency fund. But I forgot to add that her wages are being garnished ($250/per pay) from a debt from 2012 and that won't stop until mid-summer.
I'm just so conflicted right now.
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Old Update Here: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/update-brother's-gf-just-facebook-ranted-about-food-stamps-need-help/msg748965/#msg748965
New Update:
My brother and his GF have actually been doing better. They moved into a cheaper apartment, got rid of GF's car (which was $528/month), got rid of one of the motorcycles,
And now...drumroll...brother's GF is pregnant. My family is blindly happy about the whole thing and all I can think about is how they are going to afford this. Then I feel guilty about even having this feeling.
Ugh. Any more advice and suggestions?
I would have the same sinking feeling re: timing of adding a baby to the scaenario. Can you fill in a few more details - like how the talk went, how they implemented the changes, how they are doing now - to get an idea if there has really been any shift in attitude, or if this is a short term change.
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It's a little better. They cut the above bills and have a $1,500 emergency fund. But I forgot to add that her wages are being garnished ($250/per pay) from a debt from 2012 and that won't stop until mid-summer.
I'm just so conflicted right now.
This is just my opinion from a limited viewpoint, but making changes like getting rid of the car and moving to a cheaper place are not small steps. To make changes like that, people typically need to be highly motivated, either through self-discipline or desperation. :) The introduction of pregnancy certainly will put a strain on their finances, but it sounds like they've already made some positive changes. Have you spoken much to them lately, to congratulate them on their progress and gauge how they feel about the changes they've made?
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At least now they can sell the motorcycle right?! And.... you're experienced in navigating REPAYE for those 90k in GF student loans that will never get paid as I'm sure she will HAVE to be a SAHM.
Sometimes I wish I was this oblivious to life and could do whatever I want without having anxiety non-stop about the potential consequences (with or without them actually occurring)
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Sometimes I wish I was this oblivious to life and could do whatever I want without having anxiety non-stop about the potential consequences (with or without them actually occurring)
I could have written this. My sister makes the worst decisions ever at the highest possible speed, but does not seem to ever worry about them. I make painstakingly agonized ones 19589 times and check on their progress compulsively and wake up at 3 AM worrying about them. I'm sort of jealous of her. Like, great, I have a pretty good financial set up, but I'd really rather than just be carefree, some days.
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And now...drumroll...brother's GF is pregnant. My family is blindly happy about the whole thing and all I can think about is how they are going to afford this. Then I feel guilty about even having this feeling.
Ugh. Any more advice and suggestions?
Warning: the caps lock key is about to be hit.
THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO FUCKING FEED THEMSELVES AND THEY'RE HAVING A KID?!?!?!?!?! AND PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY FUCKING HAPPY ABOUT THIS?!?!?!?!?!
These people, like most, are too fucking stupid to be saved. And reserve a massive facepunch for the first person on Facebook or wherever who says either "God will provide" or "babies are blessings." Make sure blood is shed. Wait until the kid is born and they start begging for formula and diapers, because it WILL happen.
Situations like this--and I've seen them far too often--make me see red. I did a lot of stupid shit when I was younger but I never birthed a hostage to fortune, which is what this kid is going to be and who is the only person in this situation for whom I have any sympathy.
/rant
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That’s too bad – unfortunately there isn’t much you can do except also act happy and possibly offer some supportive advice. The baby is here to stay. Your family members who are acting blindly happy may also be worried, but they know they really can’t say or do much to change the situation – so they might as well just act happy and avoid a conflict. You see this a lot with teen pregnancies – people throw a shower and act all excited for the baby's arrival, when in reality all of the responsible adults are flipping out and very worried. Any negative comments risk pissing off the immature parties to the point where they start cutting out responsible adults from their lives, which further hurts the child’s chances in life. Grandparents are often in a really tight spot - they have to balance their worry/disappointment with the knowledge that this child probably won't be able to rely on the parents alone.
I guess you could say something like “hey – with the baby coming, let me know if you want any help with budgeting or planning, because I know babies can be a strain on the finances.” If they don’t take you up on it, you might just have to grin and bear it.
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Yikes. They make more than my husband and I do, and our rent is double theirs for a one bedroom place..we live in the San Francisco Bay Area! We save over $1000 a month of our $3300 net income a month. I hope they figure out other ways to cut their expenses, with a kid coming that is just insanity! Glad they got rid of one of the cars and motorcycles at least.
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I have family in Youngstown - it is one of the cheapest places to live in the US, so their budget (lack thereof) is obviously a huge problem. I'd like to know how they are spending $400 on food - even restaurants are dirt cheap there. Also, if the GF is at YSU the tuition is also dirt cheap.
Honestly, the best way to learn how to budget is to go through hard times. I've been there, done that, and can honestly say I was quickly educated about budgeting, my life priorities, and responsibility and lost the entitlement attitude of my foolish youth. It's a growing experience I think everyone would benefit from so although it's hard to watch, let them go down that road. I second the suggestions above about introducing them to some basic budget books and websites but they might just ignore it. You can lead a horse to water...
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Kudos to your brother and his gf for the changes they have made.
Based on my experience, I predict your mother will be even more likely to want to "help" if they ask so that her grandbaby is taken care of. At this stage, it is even more imperative that you and mom and your other brother sit down and discuss the future - how much support with any/all of you provide if asked, what's the cutoff, etc.
I also recommend setting up a 529 plan for your future niece/nephew and directing money there instead of into presents for Christmas and birthdays.
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This sounds just like my brother in laws family and funny enough they own harleys as well. Certainly, being in ohio also, what they make is very good (to me anyways). 5 years ago when my husband and I married we brought in $24000 combined! We lived fine, owned a home, had a loan on 1 car, small medical bill debt and lived very well. We are fortunate to have never been paycheck to paycheck nor behind on bills. Where they live, $60k is above average income. With no kids, they should be in a better spot then they are, if what she says is true (scraping together money for canned dinner). My BIL family makes a good income and is always behind and have borrowed money. Its very hard to approach family about this. Maybe ask about how things are, to get conversation going then mention doing a budget or cutting obvious costs like cable, cell phone which is very high and groceries for 2 is high. Also, the car loans find out interest payment and how long is left. Im not sure if theyll tell you or be open but it needs to be dealt with.
I hope mom is not loaning them more money! No wonder they continue to spend..
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They made the adult decision to have a baby. I wouldn't give them a dime.
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You can feed them or you can teach them to fish. Buy them a copy of this book (used, of course) and then BUTT OUT! Stop reading her FB page. When they get hungry enough, they will figure it out!
http://www.powells.com/book/complete-tightwad-gazette-9780375752254
Bonus points if you recognize the first reviewer.
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You can feed them or you can teach them to fish. Buy them a copy of this book (used, of course) and then BUTT OUT! Stop reading her FB page. When they get hungry enough, they will figure it out!
http://www.powells.com/book/complete-tightwad-gazette-9780375752254
Bonus points if you recognize the first reviewer.
relation to
Thomas Stanley?
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I would stop reading her facebook page also and talk to your Mom about not helping. If they were able to make the big changes they did they are capable of making more to be able to support a baby.
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They've made big changes! They've hit 2 out of the big 3 (housing, transportation, and food). Ok, so they still need work on the transportation, like selling the harleys, but I'd say its a great step forward. Please update on how the convo actually went, how receptive they were. I second the above advice to get them a copy of Dave Ramsey. Super accessible. And, I think a print-out of their current budget and then another without the Harley's, where they can compare the bottom line side-to-side would be eye-opening. Seeing it would be more effective than just hearing it.
And I second the poster who said that kids make things better. At least in my case. It forces you to prioritize. And realize you're an adult who shouldn't be asking for money or formula or diapers. or food.
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Thanks all for the advice thus far. The "disengage" advice is easy practically (my brother and I don't give them anything) but very hard emotionally. My mom gets so upset about it...like she failed or something...I just don't know how to get her to disengage I guess, which is why I was looking for practical advice.
Like I've been saying, it's easy to say "disengage," but it's very hard to watch.
It might be that the best you can do is listen to your Mom talk out her feelings. She already knows that your brother and GF have the solution (sell the Harleys) within their grasp. She already knows your family have tried to give budget advice and it didn't take. She already knows confrontation will harm the relationship. You're both <Bold>wishing</bold> they will wake up and stop self-harming financially, but practically, although they're acting like kids they have the adult status to make their own bad decisions.
Is your mom most upset about their bad choices? Irresponsibility in someone she raised? Fear for their health? the public whining? Feeling powerless to affect the arc? What might help your mom 'accept what she cannot change' is you actively listening and talking out her feelings. Do you need that too? Is that us on the forum? Or your twin?
Good luck. It's hard to be powerless to affect the dynamic, and harder still to accept that with equanimity and not resentment.
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You can feed them or you can teach them to fish. Buy them a copy of this book (used, of course) and then BUTT OUT! Stop reading her FB page. When they get hungry enough, they will figure it out!
http://www.powells.com/book/complete-tightwad-gazette-9780375752254
Bonus points if you recognize the first reviewer.
relation to
Thomas Stanley?
Bzzzzzz! Try again please. Worth the effort. Hint: Google knows her.
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You can feed them or you can teach them to fish. Buy them a copy of this book (used, of course) and then BUTT OUT! Stop reading her FB page. When they get hungry enough, they will figure it out!
http://www.powells.com/book/complete-tightwad-gazette-9780375752254
Bonus points if you recognize the first reviewer.
relation to
Thomas Stanley?
Bzzzzzz! Try again please. Worth the effort. Hint: Google knows her.
The Non Consumer Advocate! Love Katy and her blog!
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I have several family members who continually moan about not having enough money for this or that, but they always seem to have the resources to buy some new toy. Who cares?
I am certainly not going to bail anyone out of a situation they created on their own and continue to make worse. I am not even sure I would expend the energy to point out how they could fix their problem. I certainly wouldn't buy them a book. I likely wouldn't even lend them a sympathetic ear. I do have Facebook, but most of the crazy relatives are hidden from the regular feed. On the other hand, I also hide a lot of the wealthy relatives who only post their travel pics, the McMansion remodel and/or addition, or complain about how difficult it is to get all six cars parked in their sub-standard garage/driveway.
Now, if they have their own come-to-jesus realization and are ready to completely change how they live, how they save and spend, and how they will attack their future...that's different. It isn't up to me to get them to that point. Everyone has to decide for themselves and get to that point of buying in... until then, it isn't my problem.
What I guess in this case, is that the girlfriend and boyfriend will at some point decide to marry and, of course, they deserve a big fat clown wedding of their dreams and will start a gofundme campaign so that others can pay for it.
NDQ
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You can feed them or you can teach them to fish. Buy them a copy of this book (used, of course) and then BUTT OUT! Stop reading her FB page. When they get hungry enough, they will figure it out!
http://www.powells.com/book/complete-tightwad-gazette-9780375752254
Bonus points if you recognize the first reviewer.
relation to
Thomas Stanley?
Bzzzzzz! Try again please. Worth the effort. Hint: Google knows her.
The Non Consumer Advocate! Love Katy and her blog!
I love Tightwad Gazette and The Non Consumer Advocate, so a shout out for the benefit of all the like-minded citizens here seemed in good order. Yay Ryli!