Bay area salary question (Apple specifically)

[MayDay]

Obviously Bay area tech salaries are high, bit how high?

I found a job posting that I am qualified for, and H and I were talking about how much you would have to make to account for the COL.  Anyone have insight into how much a job like this would pay?

Manufacturing Design – Coatings & Inks Engineer
Company Name Apple  Company LocationCupertino, CA, US

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/541987295/

Correspondingly, how much monthly would it cost to live in a 3 bedroom house within a 30 minute commute?

[rubybeth]

It would likely pay a lot, and you can negotiate these kinds of things. Start looking up rentals and real estate to get an idea of costs. A house in the Bay Area is not going to be cheap, but as far as I know, Apple pays well. I know someone very tangentially who works there and his wife stays home with their children.

[MayDay]

What is a lot though? 150k? 200k? And do you get stock options on top of that?

[undercover]

https://www.glassdoor.com/job-listing/manufacturing-design-engineer-apple-JV_IC1147439_KO0,29_KE30,35.htm?jl=2647113229&ctt=1517582894708

[MayDay]

https://www.glassdoor.com/job-listing/manufacturing-design-engineer-apple-JV_IC1147439_KO0,29_KE30,35.htm?jl=2647113229&ctt=1517582894708

That seems super low given the cost of living.  Hard pass.

[rubybeth]

https://www.glassdoor.com/job-listing/manufacturing-design-engineer-apple-JV_IC1147439_KO0,29_KE30,35.htm?jl=2647113229&ctt=1517582894708

That seems super low given the cost of living.  Hard pass.

You negotiate for these things, though. You don't just get an offer and say, "No thanks," you say how much you want, and you pad it a bit more and then come down if needed.

[doneby35]

They pay more, but not enough to match the cost of living. It really depends on where you currently are located.

As an example, if you get paid $100,000 in phoenix arizona, you will get paid $130,000 in the bay area.
However, 1 bedroom in phoenix is $700, 1 bedroom in the bay area is $2000+

[trollwithamustache]

Do you guys have kids?

A lot of the south bay I half jokingly call a company town. People are there for work.

The schools are good, but with kids you are stuck paying big time for the full Cali experience.  (big enough place, lots of ancillary things are expensive, now expensive times how many you have)

If not, taxes ect will go up, but you can get a small place, make more money, save a huge amount of cash, and there is a ton of stuff to do in the area outdoorswise that doesn't have to cost anything.

Keep the homestead wherever it currently is to return to.

[MayDay]

https://www.glassdoor.com/job-listing/manufacturing-design-engineer-apple-JV_IC1147439_KO0,29_KE30,35.htm?jl=2647113229&ctt=1517582894708

That seems super low given the cost of living.  Hard pass.

You negotiate for these things, though. You don't just get an offer and say, "No thanks," you say how much you want, and you pad it a bit more and then come down if needed.

Huh. I guess. COL calculator says housing in SF is only twice as expensive as Mpls. From my POV it is more like 6x as expensive. If they are offering 150k but I'm supposed to negotiate up to being able to buy a 1.8 million dollar house (quick Google found a comparable house for sale at that price) then I am not seeing a middle ground. 

The only thing that seems like it would make it worth doing is if that salary has $$$$$ stock options on top of it. Maybe that is how you buy the 1.8 million dollar house, but that doesn't help for the first few years.

I would enjoy living in that area of the country (especially since it is negative a million degrees outside right now) but I guess I thought salaries were higher.

[MayDay]

We have two elementary aged kids, so yes, that is the problem. We can't/won't rent a bedroom in a house to keep costs down.

I make 90 and H makes 130 in MCOL Mpls as engineers, so I assumed the bay area premium was a lot higher. 

[lbmustache]

We have two elementary aged kids, so yes, that is the problem. We can't/won't rent a bedroom in a house to keep costs down.

I make 90 and H makes 130 in MCOL Mpls as engineers, so I assumed the bay area premium was a lot higher.

I would presume that your salary would jump to ~$130k or so, and spouse would be ~$180k or so. Am I incorrect in assuming that a $1.8mil house is doable on $300k+ combined?

[Dicey]

Funny, it kinda sounds like you think the job is yours for the asking. The competition for these high-paying jobs is fierce.
As rubybeth stated, negotiation is key.

[MayDay]

Oh,I doubt I'd even get a call back, I'm just kind of amazed people want the jobs that bad for those salaries, given the housing costs.

I imagine the mortgage on a 300k HHI is fine, but we don't have 360k sitting around as a down payment.

[Chippewa]

And you get to move into the Apple apartments for 45 days so you can find a place. They ship everything including the cars for you. My friend’s husband recently got a job with them and loves it thus far.

[jamesbond007]

I have been living in the Bay Area for 10 years have been working in the Tech industry. Apple is very well known to not pay fairly for the amount of work employees put in and the kind of stress employees undergo. Yes, there are always people who get paid huge sums but unless you are in one of the core teams, forget about meaningful pay at Apple. I have a lot of friends who work at Apple and they say the same. You could argue that they did not negotiate very well but 6 people can't say the same thing. These 6 people range from VP to junior software engineer. Coming to Bay Area rent within 30 minutes commute to Cupertino campus, for a 3 bed, you can expect to pay upwards of $3500 per month if you get lucky.

[mm1970]

What is a lot though? 150k? 200k? And do you get stock options on top of that?

I believe that a former engineer of mine, that I hired out of college in 2005 at 48k, went to go work for Apple 2 years ago at around $150k-175k.  I don't remember the specific number.  So, he had about 10 years experience at that point, and his previous job here (So Cal) was paying around $75-80k.

[rubybeth]

I'm also in Minnesota, MayDay, so understand the allure of the Bay Area! But at the salaries you are making now and MSP cost of living, you are right that it's probably better to stay put.

[mm1970]

We have two elementary aged kids, so yes, that is the problem. We can't/won't rent a bedroom in a house to keep costs down.

I make 90 and H makes 130 in MCOL Mpls as engineers, so I assumed the bay area premium was a lot higher.

I would presume that your salary would jump to ~$130k or so, and spouse would be ~$180k or so. Am I incorrect in assuming that a $1.8mil house is doable on $300k+ combined?

Um, I guess it depends?  You could do that (my spouse and I are nearing that total income, but not in the Bay Area), but I wouldn't be willing to pay that much for a house.  It's not just the mortgage, it's the $20k per year prop taxes.

So, the pay is higher in the Bay Area.  But you have to "buy in" to the lifestyle of California.  That's how they get you (I live in Santa Barbara, where it's expensive and the pay, in general, kind of sucks.  Because it's a nice place to live.).

You are simply either going to pay through the nose to get an equivalent house OR you are going to accept that you are buying the weather and the lifestyle.  As I put it when we bought our house years ago (2BR, 1BA, 1100 sf no garage, no attic, no basement) - "We essentially bought a $180k house on a $600k piece of land."  I'd love a bigger place but...it's not in the cards.  Then again, we don't have 6 mos of winter every year so I don't need a full basement to kick the kids to when they are making too much noise.

[mm1970]

I have been living in the Bay Area for 10 years have been working in the Tech industry. Apple is very well known to not pay fairly for the amount of work employees put in and the kind of stress employees undergo. Yes, there are always people who get paid huge sums but unless you are in one of the core teams, forget about meaningful pay at Apple. I have a lot of friends who work at Apple and they say the same. You could argue that they did not negotiate very well but 6 people can't say the same thing. These 6 people range from VP to junior software engineer. Coming to Bay Area rent within 30 minutes commute to Cupertino campus, for a 3 bed, you can expect to pay upwards of $3500 per month if you get lucky.

I will agree with this.  The friend/ former coworker who went there is paid well, but works like a dog.

In fact, I have many friends in the Bay Area, and that's the overwhelming takeaway.  We have good friends our age whose kids are our age.  We visit them up there.  They live in Mountain View and have lived there for a long time (bought back when a house was "only" $700k).

I'm quite sure their pay is much higher than ours.  Companies up there suffer from the same problems that they do elsewhere, in that they hire in new people at "market rate" but the long term employees get screwed.  The thing is, the competition.

More people competing for the same job is one thing, but on the other hand, when times are booming, it works in reverse.  There are enough companies that you can walk down the street and get a better paying job when the season is right.

But, it's a pressure cooker.  The stories remind me a lot of my days in DC. 
Example: my friends have a nanny.  When their nanny quit it was a horrible month of trying to find a new one.  The nanny gets the kids after school, takes them to their events, helps with homework, etc.  Because my friends work long hours.  They have flexibility to leave early and work from home if necessary.  A little bit.  And the commute times!!

We don't have a nanny.  They asked us how we manage.  One of use works 7:30 to 4:30 pm and picks up the kids after school (after care ends at 5:30, the commute is about 15 minutes).  The other drops the kids in the morning and works 9 to 5 or 9 to 6.  Of course, there are regular days like swim lessons or sports, and whomever's day it is to pick up (it varies by the day), leaves even earlier (2:45!) to get the kids and take them to sports practice, or whatever.

"Wait, that's ok?"  Yes.  You see, one of the things we get here is flexibility.  It sounds like for many companies in the Bay Area, that kind of REGULAR flexibility in schedule isn't as normal.

The other thing is that there is FAR less of a pressure to have your kids in the "right" activities and "right" summer camps.  There still is that pressure, but it's much more easily avoided.

[ysette9]

We are two engineers in the Bay Area. Both of our jobs are pretty flexible so we do like others have said: one drops off the kiddos in the morning and the other leaves earlier to pick up. It works well for us. Yes, the area is expensive, there is no way around that. However, with some adjustment in your attitude and insert I think it can be very beneficial under the right circumstances.

On one income things will be tough no matter what. With two professional incomes though this is a great place. Two people can pursue career advancement without having to make sacrifices for the other career because all of the companies are here. That is a hard thing to find elsewhere. To be financially successful you have to stop trying to figure out how to afford the same kind of house you had back in LCOL Hometown USA. It isn’t going to happen. If you moved to Hong Kong for work you would live in a 2-bedroom apartment because that is what everyone does and this what you could afford. If you move to the Bay Area and aren’t independently wealthy, you live it large in 1000f^2 and count your blessings that you can go outside to play 365 days a year. If you can apply your mustachian muscles and keep your housing costs under control then there is the opportunity to save a lot of $ in that dual-income professional situation I describe.

[Gronnie]

Mayday, I'm a Firmware Engineer in Rochester a couple years out of school and made ~95k last year. My company asked me if I would be interested in moving to Milpitas (also Bay Area CA). I asked how much more I would get per year....... wait for it..... $20k!!!! Hard pass!!!! I'm sure my $250k house here that is a <5 minute commute to work would be like 2 million there.

[MayDay]

I agree that a small house is fine. My quick search earlier was a 4 bed, 1600 sq ft house for 1.8 million which exactly matches my house, except no basement.

I just looked a bit more and found a few 3 bed houses in the 1200 sq ft range for 1.4-1.6 million. I am fine with 3 bedroom and 1200 sq ft (we lived in a 800 sq ft two bedroom house when the kids were younger).

Still astronomical, and we'd be locked into two working adults, compared to here where we can afford the mortgage with either of us working. The mortgage estimate with 5% down is 6500$ for the 1.4 million house, so it seems like renting makes more sense if rent runs 3-4k for 3 bedrooms.

It is interesting. I can see how if you start out there and have the high salary while living in a roommate situation, you come.out ahead. Seems really hard to transition in ten years later.

As a few people mentioned, here in Mpls I typically work 7-3, maybe 4, so that would be a huge culture shock as well. The hours alone ate a big NOPE.

[ysette9]

It sounds like it is normal for people elsewhere to move to a new place and buy a house. That usually isn’t what is recommended in the Bay Area. It makes sense to buy if you are going to be here for the long term. If not, renting makes more sense. Even if you knew you were going to buy, I would still recommend renting initially to get familiar with the area.

That said, I wouldn’t move here for Apple. They do work a lot of their employees hard. It was great work experience for my husband, the stock options got us a down payment on our first place, and having that name on his resume openend up a lot of doors later. He worked his but off during his tenure there. Early in the career it can be good but I wouldn’t not work there if you have a family.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

I work in the Bay Area for a company that pays roughly similar to Apple, and make substantially more than that, mostly through stock options. (note the job you linked to isn't what I do, but the scale of pay is quite a bit higher). That said, unclear how much industry experience you have. (I have 20 years of industry experience).

Also, we moved from Seattle & it's crazy expensive here. Particularly the property tax & state income tax. No getting around that. We're currently staying until the kids are done with school. The weather is also pretty great.

[jamesbond007]

I agree that a small house is fine. My quick search earlier was a 4 bed, 1600 sq ft house for 1.8 million which exactly matches my house, except no basement.

I just looked a bit more and found a few 3 bed houses in the 1200 sq ft range for 1.4-1.6 million. I am fine with 3 bedroom and 1200 sq ft (we lived in a 800 sq ft two bedroom house when the kids were younger).

Still astronomical, and we'd be locked into two working adults, compared to here where we can afford the mortgage with either of us working. The mortgage estimate with 5% down is 6500$ for the 1.4 million house, so it seems like renting makes more sense if rent runs 3-4k for 3 bedrooms.

It is interesting. I can see how if you start out there and have the high salary while living in a roommate situation, you come.out ahead. Seems really hard to transition in ten years later.

As a few people mentioned, here in Mpls I typically work 7-3, maybe 4, so that would be a huge culture shock as well. The hours alone ate a big NOPE.

You also have to account for the new mortgage deduction cap that kicked in with the new tax law. In that price range, renting beats buying any day. If I were you, move in, get that experience on the resume, then decide what to do. But, the traffic is a nightmare. Almost every park is crowded. Freeways are entering gridlock even on weekends these days. My guess is that the population nearly doubled in the last 10 years. I could tell just by looking at the number of people wherever I go.

[calimom]

My late husband worked for Apple from 2003 to 2006.  His salary was just north of six figures but the hours in his team were looooong. I had a full time job during those years too and we rented a nice suburban house for slightly more than $3,000 per month.We socked away a bit of cash. He left in 2006 to take a job working for a friend's startup for a decent salary and a far better quality of life. He did get the opportunity to purchase AAPL stock, which I'm grateful for today. But overall, the big tech firms are notorious for high expectations, time-wise. Great if you're unencumbered, not so much if you have a young family and/or appreciate something that resembles a life-work balance.

[john c]

I turned down a job at Apple in 2007, just before the iPhone release.  I was offered 1500 shares of stock, which has since split 7 times.  I turned down $1.8M that day, in addition to the increase in salary for making the jump.  Plus, I would have received new stock grants each year after that.  I'm not even an engineer, but a business guy.

All the focus on salary is really noise.  The  salary is just to cover your living expenses.  Hopefully your stock grants hit and you make your money that way.  Maybe, maybe not.  A lot of people forget that the Silicon Valley has minted 100s of thousands, if not millions, of millionaires.

Housing prices have doubled in the last five years.  The $1.4M houses you're looking at were $700k.  If you'd come then, and bought, you'd have $700k minimum in net worth.  The stock price has also doubled in that time.  How much more will it go up?  The ship has probably sailed for big opportunities here, but a prudent move back then, for an average Joe, might have made you FI by now.

'This factors into a related point.  Engineer jobs here are a dime a dozen.  It's not a fancy job.  A good job, but more like a factory worker in the midwest.  Regular engineers don't live in the best parts of town, or the nicest houses.  The pre-IPO employees at Google live in those parts of town.  The good jobs the OP has in the midwest make her family VERY well off.  Not so here.  I've met people who come here who have a hard time with that.

Others have touched on this, but don't expect the same lifestyle as in other places.  You don't move to Paris for the big, cheap houses, or your ability to save a boatload of money.  You move there for the unique things that Paris has.  The Bay Area is like that.  If it's not for you, that's okay.  But it is very different from the Midwest.  There are a lot of cool things here, like the mountains and beach, and world class city.  The high today was 76 degrees, so my kids play outside.  In the July and August, the temps are like 85 degrees (with some hot spells).  Most of the places I've lived didn't have AC, because you don't really need it.  Several of the places I've lived didn't have central heat, because you don't need it.

So the comparison to other places in terms of affordability, etc, miss the point.  If you're the type of people who can make it here, it's great, and you'll be rich.  If not, this place is hell on earth. 

From a conventional, middle class point of view, you're MUCH better off where you are.  I say that will complete seriousness.  I personally know at least 100 families that have moved away because you can't make it here with a couple of kids and 2x $100k salaries.  You can have a bigger house, better commute, etc elsewhere. 

[MayDay]

Very good points John c. That she'd ssome light into the stock thing.

I would enjoy the prestige (I will admit I can be shallow!) but I don't think I want to raise my kids in a world where their parents who live in a 1.4 million dollar house are the "poor" ones.

This was a good thought exercise. Thanks everyone.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

Very good points John c. That she'd ssome light into the stock thing.

I would enjoy the prestige (I will admit I can be shallow!) but I don't think I want to raise my kids in a world where their parents who live in a 1.4 million dollar house are the "poor" ones.

This was a good thought exercise. Thanks everyone.

More than 1/2 of my annual income comes from stock, so ditto what John said. The salary alone is not enough for us to buy a house with in this area. We saved our options for 4ish years before we bought a house.

[jamesbond007]

same story. I joined in 2008 and got some stock @28. fast forward 8 years, that stock became 120. Sold and bought a house. If it was not for the stock, a house would've been a pipe dream. But lately, I negotiated a much higher salary in lieu of stock so I could dump money into VTSAX. This strategy is working out better actually. Valley stocks won't see the kind of gain they saw in the last 10 years unless there is another recession.

[PaulMaxime]

I didn't work at Apple. I left a good salary $175K in Baltimore for a $145K salary at Google. My girlfriend was able to transfer out here so we had a decent income, but it seemed like a pay cut.

However I did get up to a 30% annual bonus and 320 shares and 640 options vesting over 4 years, plus generous stock refresh grants of at least $100K per year.

So, even though it was super expensive to live here we eventually managed to buy a condo here in SF that has now almost doubled in price. My net worth has increased by 10X in 11 years.

So it can work out pretty well.

[ysette9]

Really? 40%? We’ve never paid more than about 33% total and our household AGI has been in the $200-$300 range. That is without a mortgage for interest deduction.

[trollwithamustache]

Really? 40%? We’ve never paid more than about 33% total and our household AGI has been in the $200-$300 range. That is without a mortgage for interest deduction.

But what is your marginal tax rate? Thats what could spank OP on a new fancy pants California income...  All that extra moola gets vacuumed at an easy 32% federal, 9.3 % state, plus the ticklers for medicare and pedicures for the governor...

[ysette9]

Sure, our marginal rate is high. But that doesn’t matter because it is the overall rate which determines what actually comes out of our pockets and goes to the government.

[ysette9]

Our effective federal rate last year was 22.7% on an AGI over $300k. We didn’t have a mortgage at that time.

[JLee]

There are currently no income taxes in Washington state -- the state constitution does not allow them (though Seattle is trying to push one through and that will go to the state supreme court at some point).  Property taxes are pretty high, about 1% of assessed home value (and going up by around 15-20% in the Seattle area this year due to transit levies and our horrible underfunded schooling situation),which is a lot in our inflated property market.  And sales taxes are 10%+ (but waived on food).

2.7% property taxes and 6% income taxes here in Jersey...enjoy it while it lasts :(

[snapperdude]

  We have good friends our age whose kids are our age.  We visit them up there. 

That's some fucked up backwoods shit.

[ysette9]

Of course we did. I just don’t have the state return available here on my phone to reference.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

Of course we did. I just don’t have the state return available here on my phone to reference.

Add in property taxes &  . . . things get crazy, depending on where you are. The percentage you pay on property taxes may be similar to other parts of the country, but when you factor in the insanely high cost of living, you will likely be living in a house 2-3x the cost of other parts of the country. Likewise, your property taxes will be 2-3x/higher. The new tax bill will make all of this more painful.

[NorCal]

Here's my take as someone who lives and works in the Bay Area. 

I don't know your job/field specifically, but I would assume that the job would be ~$130K base + 10-30% split between equity/bonus, or other value.  So total comp would be higher.

Benefit of working at Apple:  If you work there for a few years, you can get hired anywhere.

I think the estimate is right on the money with the $1.4M - $1.8M range for a smallish single family home in commuting distance.  If the 1,200 - 1,500 sqft works for you, you'd find something.  Do watch out for homes with maintenance issues.  Most of the homes in the area are 70 - 100 years old, and many haven't been kept in great condition.  Foundation issues, plumbing issues, and electrical issues should be expected.  Oh, and maybe 30% of the houses in my neighborhood with a "sold" sign end up with a termite tent within a month.

Plan on property taxes to be 1%-1.1% of the purchase price.  So $14K-$20K in this price range.  Expect an effective state income tax rate of ~9%.

Renting is typically a better deal in the Bay Area.  I haven't looked recently, but you'd probably find a similar home in the $4K - $5K/month range.

If it were me, I wouldn't do it.  Working in Silicon Valley was a brilliant decision in my 20's, but it's a pretty raw deal for those with a family and kids.  I'm extraordinarily glad I got the opportunity to live here, and I will be extraordinarily glad to leave.  I'm actively looking for opportunities elsewhere.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

Here's my take as someone who lives and works in the Bay Area. 

I don't know your job/field specifically, but I would assume that the job would be ~$130K base + 10-30% split between equity/bonus, or other value.  So total comp would be higher.

Benefit of working at Apple:  If you work there for a few years, you can get hired anywhere.

I think the estimate is right on the money with the $1.4M - $1.8M range for a smallish single family home in commuting distance.  If the 1,200 - 1,500 sqft works for you, you'd find something.  Do watch out for homes with maintenance issues.  Most of the homes in the area are 70 - 100 years old, and many haven't been kept in great condition.  Foundation issues, plumbing issues, and electrical issues should be expected.  Oh, and maybe 30% of the houses in my neighborhood with a "sold" sign end up with a termite tent within a month.

Plan on property taxes to be 1%-1.1% of the purchase price.  So $14K-$20K in this price range.  Expect an effective state income tax rate of ~9%.

Renting is typically a better deal in the Bay Area.  I haven't looked recently, but you'd probably find a similar home in the $4K - $5K/month range.

If it were me, I wouldn't do it.  Working in Silicon Valley was a brilliant decision in my 20's, but it's a pretty raw deal for those with a family and kids.  I'm extraordinarily glad I got the opportunity to live here, and I will be extraordinarily glad to leave.  I'm actively looking for opportunities elsewhere.

Just a comment on the termites - it's a best practice in the area to tent for termites, regardless of if they've ever been found before on the property. Given age of houses & weather conditions, it's considered preventative. We spoke to multiple realtors & did our own research on this, so that's probably why you see so many tents going up. And, +1 many of your other comments, as a fellow Bay Area mustachian. :-)