The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: StartingEarly on November 01, 2014, 10:31:29 AM
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I haven't seen much mention of it on here except for one post in the dating section that got zero response. Is it rare for LGBT people to be Mustachian or am I just not noticing them?
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I've seen a number post on here, and met a few at some of the various Mustachian meetups. Every one of them has been awesome, like the other Mustachians I've met.
Many may not post about it when it's not particularly relevant.
"SO" is a term anyone can use, and what does it matter if that significant other is the same gender as you or not?
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I think there are a few on the forums, but just like I don't add a "BTW, I'm straight" to the end of all my posts, they don't at a "BTW, I'm gay." Occasionally there are hints in the context of posts. But really... who cares? Unless that person is making it your business, chances are... it's not.
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I don't think this community has any higher or lower representation of LGBT individuals than any other relatively random group of people. It's not like gay people are notoriously frugal, or not frugal.
Though I think that gay couples, especially gay men, often have a slight financial advantage over straight couples. In part because they are more likely to not raise children, and in part because two men are statistically likely to earn more than a man and a woman or two women, just due to the gender pay gap. Couples with very different incomes used to get hit with some tax penalties because they couldn't file as married, but even that's been corrected now.
I've known gay couples that were a financial disaster, and couples that were really capitalizing on being lifelong DINKs. Knowing that at the outset can really supercharge your savings plan.
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Yes. No. Maybe. Why does it matter?
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I don't have many people in the community that I have much in common with financially. I was hoping to see some frugal people from my community. Unless I am really horrible at interpreting the tone of writing it seems like I am just getting yelled at instead.
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We're married ladies :)
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Interesting that you ask this question - I'm always careful about how "out" I am on the Internet. As a lesbian who has recently returned to the dating scene I've found it interesting to find that frugality is challenging to many of the middle class women I date. They don't want to give up drinks, dinners, movies, etc. It's made for some enlightening conversations (and, as yet, no girlfriend).
Sol's point about gay male couples often having higher income makes sense given that, in general men still make more than women.
To be honest, I kind of envy coupled Mustachians (straight or gay) who have a partner-in-crime, someone with whom to share their goals and endeavors. I don't say that to sound complainypants because I'm having a great time on this forum and building a Mustachian community.
Anyway, good luck building your own badass Mustachian community out there in Wisconsin!
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I think maybe some responders are being protective of gay and lesbian forum members, not yelling at you. They seem to be saying that it doesn't matter to them if forum posters are gay or straight, and that posters may not find orientation a relevant descriptor in this forum unless it has a particular impact on their ability to reach FIRE. For example, in states where gays and lesbians can't marry, there are tax benefits they're missing out on, among many other things.
Have you tried the Mustachian and Single section of the forum?
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I think its normal to want to find other people to talk to, with whom you share immutable characteristics. Especially if you live in a place like Wisconsin which is less liberal (?).
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I don't have many people in the community that I have much in common with financially. I was hoping to see some frugal people from my community. Unless I am really horrible at interpreting the tone of writing it seems like I am just getting yelled at instead.
I don't see anyone yelling, so yeah, I think you may have misinterpreted the tone.
Some just pointing out why you may not have seen them, and wondering why it mattered.
They're normal people, ultimately. :)
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From a FIRE standpoint it could be helpful to talk to others about dealing with job situations that are exclusive to the LGBT community. Many states allow you to be fired for being gay, and even though I have job protections in Wisconsin I have still had to deal with an individual threatening to get me fired before. The union had to step in, it wasn't pleasant. If they weren't stupid enough to have said something I could have ended up getting fired from them trying to turn the whole crew on me and it would have been under the catch all category "doesn't work well with others". That nice little catchall will end up costing me close to $10,000 in lost compensation over the course of ten years when they used it early on in my career because I was too "different" from the crew. So there are certain life aspects are solely LGBT issues that do tie in heavily with Mustachianism. Just hard to start the conversation when you don't know who is who.
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One of the reasons becoming FI is appealing to me is the chance to be free from being at the mercy of others in order to have a job. As we know, many people struggle with on-the-job discrimination (a dear friend was a black male nurse - not an easy path!). You're doing the right thing to get yourself to FI as soon as possible. Equally important is to build a community so that you have a place to go that welcomes and supports you. Suggestion: if there isn't a big LGBTQ community in your area, try to connect with other individuals/groups. I've yet to find MMM issues that specifically intersect with being LGBTQI (other than the aforementioned not needing to depend on others for a living), but am curious to find out what others think.
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I don't have many people in the community that I have much in common with financially. I was hoping to see some frugal people from my community. Unless I am really horrible at interpreting the tone of writing it seems like I am just getting yelled at instead.
I don't see anyone yelling, so yeah, I think you may have misinterpreted the tone.
Some just pointing out why you may not have seen them, and wondering why it mattered.
They're normal people, ultimately. :)
Yeah, it wasn't yelling at all. I was just pointing out the irrelevance on a semi-anonymous forum. I'm bisexual but happily in a straight marriage with kids. My alternate sexual preferences don't mean squat to anything in this community, so I usually don't bring it up at all. I think I mentioned it once in a thread just to point out that homeschooling families aren't all conservative religious types like they're stereotyped as being.
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I'm not sure if this feels like a fit for you, but if you are keen to have conversation which includes matters relating specifically to being LGB and/or T, I would consider starting either:
(a) threads on that topic, as they come up for you, eg, Under Ask a Mustachian a thread could be "being fired for being gay". This would draw people who have interest, experience, knowledge, advice, and/or sympathy. This might include some LGBT people, but may also include a straight lawyer that cares, justice advocates, etc.
(b) a Journal including LGBT in its title. This might draw the audience of other LGBT people, as well as straight or curious folks keen on learning about the LGBT experience as it relates to finances, etc. In that vein, some of us have something like "single parent" or "avid cyclist" or whatever in our Journal titles -whatever element of our being or life that we feel affects/dictates our finances the most.
A fair number of people on the forum identify as LGBT, but generally refer to this just when it comes up naturally in conversation and usually indirectly/casually. i.e., Sometimes a person is talking about the expense of dating, and we notice a reference to meeting people of the same sex. My very first PM was an apology on my part for assuming in a post that a certain member was a straight male. She had referred to her wife, and I had made an incorrect leap. She didn't say anything -I realized it myself, sent my apologetic note, and corrected my post. She was very gracious about it, and I've been more aware of not assuming I know anything about anyone that hasn't been explicitly posted.
As you hang out on the forum, you'll learn in a casual way who identifies as LGBT, who is in a straight relationship, and all sorts of other wonderful things.
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Happy to chime in and assure you that there are other LGBT Mustachians...at least if you count my spouse and myself. He actually has never really focused on it...he is just pretty frugal by nature. My contribution is making sure that the funds go to sensible investments. In truth, I am not sure that there are a lot of financial issues that are specific to the LGBT community...they would mostly apply to similarly situated straight couples. Though the potential for discrimination based on orientation is something real. I am fortunate to have a very supportive employer, where many LGBT folks are in significant positions of responsibility. If I didn't have a strong desire to retire, it would be a great place to stay until 65!
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Part of the mustachian struggle for me lies in the area that I live in. I always want to go to the big city, but it's over 100 miles away. Then there's the job thing. In my field where I am is one of the best places to be and also allows me to live at home for the time being. Being discriminated against at work however causes a lot of stress. I have been saving a lot and put away over 80k, but I am stuck here until my apprenticeship is over which is years away.
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(b) a Journal including LGBT in its title. This might draw the audience of other LGBT people, as well as straight or curious folks keen on learning about the LGBT experience as it relates to finances, etc. In that vein, some of us have something like "single parent" or "avid cyclist" or whatever in our Journal titles -whatever element of our being or life that we feel affects/dictates our finances the most.
"Australian" is also a common adjective of late ;)
I don't even notice the gender or age of many posters, let alone their sexuality.
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Part of the mustachian struggle for me lies in the area that I live in. I always want to go to the big city, but it's over 100 miles away. Then there's the job thing. [...] Being discriminated against at work however causes a lot of stress. [...] I am stuck here until my apprenticeship is over which is years away.
I would propose that much of this is not LGBT-specific. So, you might make a thread like "discrimination (gay) at work" to see if anyone has advice about resolving that specific source of stress in your current employment, OR you might make a thread about "is a move possible??", if that's the primary heartache, OR you might make a thread about "stressful job, stuck for many years" and ask for advice/input on that aspect. Or you might start one thread per challenge.
Oodles of people here (all genders and orientations) are super stressed in their jobs, for all sorts of different reasons, some because of discrimination, some because of other forms of workplace bullying, some because of extreme boredom, some because the work itself conflicts with their deepest values, some because the hours are insane, and so on.
Some have asked for input on what to do in that situation and improved the situation considerably, making the experience far better for them while they are there, and some have successfully found their way out of a situation they felt stuck in.
So, ponder what your underlying question is, make a thread with that in the title, and request input. If the underlying question is specific to being LGBT, include that information. If the question is not really specific to that, but more specific to "feeling stuck in a stressful work situation", speak to that.
A lot of us will be distracted by irrelevant details (a.k.a. red herrings), so the more focused you can make your thread title and opening post (or edit it to that as you go along), the more relevant the responses will be.
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I think there are a few on the forums, but just like I don't add a "BTW, I'm straight" to the end of all my posts, they don't at a "BTW, I'm gay." Occasionally there are hints in the context of posts. But really... who cares? Unless that person is making it your business, chances are... it's not.
I don't have many people in the community that I have much in common with financially. I was hoping to see some frugal people from my community. Unless I am really horrible at interpreting the tone of writing it seems like I am just getting yelled at instead.
I don't see anyone yelling, so yeah, I think you may have misinterpreted the tone.
Some just pointing out why you may not have seen them, and wondering why it mattered.
They're normal people, ultimately. :)
Yeah, it wasn't yelling at all. I was just pointing out the irrelevance on a semi-anonymous forum. I'm bisexual but happily in a straight marriage with kids. My alternate sexual preferences don't mean squat to anything in this community, so I usually don't bring it up at all. I think I mentioned it once in a thread just to point out that homeschooling families aren't all conservative religious types like they're stereotyped as being.
I'm surprised, and I've read a lot of GoblinChief's journal. I'm bi, and I don't think that's ever come up on the boards before. There just hasn't been a lot of discussion of it. *shrug* From what I'm getting in this thread, I'd guess that the majority of the Mustachians are fine with it.
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Anyone else into furries? Just curious if we have any representation on these boards?
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Yup, I'm queer, too. Like others have said, I'm not sure it has come up much for me on here. I might have mentioned it, but I really don't remember. It sounds like you're dealing with issues that can be discussed independent of the LGBT discrimination, like others have said, but of course, I understand wanting to find a community who really "gets it." So in that way, it makes perfect sense that you're looking for an lgbt mustachian community. Does your area have MMM meetup groups? Maybe you can ask around within those meetups. And when you go to queer events, keep an eye out for fellow mustachian-minded folks. In the meantime, just remember you're not alone on here :)
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I agree with others that there are more than you realize.
I'm Bi, but other than a few references in my journal to going on dates with both men and women it doesn't really come up much.
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I'm intrigued by the need to identify as LGBT in a community that - from what I've seen - hasn't mentioned anything about it or focused on it as an element of the community. Certainly there are some issues that financially affect the lgbt sector - but I haven't looked into it as its not something that affects me. I do work for a very LGBT friendly company and they have groups that address issues for them specifically. On here I assumed that there was little mention of it because it just doesn't matter what your sexual orientation is.
and I didn't read it as you being shouted at earlier.. maybe a hint of surprise that you'd bring it up but nothing against you.
I think this is a very friendly forum and pretty tolerant.
Even with all those convicts invading the Journal section (ok I'm off to hide now....)
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Even with all those convicts invading the Journal section
Ahem. A neat segue - our Sydney Convicts are the Gay Rugby World Champions too.
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Yup, another LGBT mustachian representing here too.
And indeed, there are several financial issues that come up that are specific to us:
1. Where you live: trying to save $$$, live in a lower COL area, lower property taxes? Well you have to take into account the location's acceptance of and community for us. There are many places in the US where I either wouldn't feel safe and/or I would miss having a pack of my peeps.
2. Prior to the repeal of DOMA, if you got health insurance from your partner, you also got to pay taxes on that benefit unlike legally married straight folk. Also, consider the cost of having to file additional tax returns -- it was so complicated filing couple returns in the state and single returns federally that it did require the services of a skilled tax person.
3. Getting married at all: again, it comes back to location, but this has massive tax consequences, survivor benefit consequences, life insurance implications...
4. You know the financial advantages you're mentioning regarding two gay men? Well, we've got the financial disadvantages of two women to tackle...
So yea, it does matter, but these issues haven't been on these forums too much. But if someone did bring them up and I feel entirely welcome to do so here, there would clearly be some LGBT/Q mustachians who would be interested and experienced to reply...
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+1 about the tribe-location piece.
I said in my Journal recently that I disagree with the adage of "no geographical cure". After my last move, I called bullshit on it, because for the last 3? 4? years I was in Vancouver (BC, Canada), which one might think would offer tribe for almost everyone, but it sure didn't for me. I moved to a tiny rural village that does, and my entire experience of being on the planet is infinitely better!
My move wasn't focused on LGBT matters -there are other variables that are even higher priorities for me personally- but as it happens, the new place does indeed have a good representation of LGBT/Q and that is indeed one aspect that infuses me with new happiness. So yeah, some of us need to move from one location to another so that a basic need is met, and being with other LGBT/Q may be one such need.
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Yes, while it can be viewed as anti-mustachian to purposely move to a higher cost of living area without a higher cost of living appropriate job some of us find it very necessary to move to retain sanity. I am currently trapped by the money I am making now and the apprenticeship that I am under. If I moved now I would have a hard time continuing my career path. So now home has ended up where I don't belong.
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StartingEarly: Even though nothing is guaranteed, I encourage you to start a thread about the stuckness part. You just never know! The place I moved to ended up much cheaper, as well as at least as diverse, much friendlier, etc. For that matter, several of the very rural and strange places I have lived in were high in LGBT population and LGBT friendliness. One place I lived was way out in the boonies, at the top of a mountain, in what the residents identified as a "polyamourous dyke commune". The folks living there had each found ways to "do the impossible" -walk away from their fancy careers in Vancouver and, with no experience whatsoever, build their own homes by hand by following instructions in a library book- in order to experience joy instead.
So, finding one's tribe isn't always about being in a bigger city, for example, and doesn't necessarily have to involve a higher cost of living.
You very well might decide to stay put for now to keep your current income and/or because it is the only or best place to complete the apprenticeship, but there MAY be other options too. Or suggestions for how to enjoy your life there until you can leave, or the value of releasing a specific level of income or a specific career path, etc. Worth exploring? If nothing else, a full discussion of the circumstance, dreams, barriers, and options may help clarify things for you (which for me is always healing in itself), help you develop a solid exit strategy so you are ready to go the minute that doing so becomes an option, and give you confident, hope, and peace in the meantime.
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Hard to move does not mean impossible to move. I moved to DC with exactly 300 dollars and no other assets. It can be done.
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There are a lot of things holding me here. Beyond the job most of my family is here. The only other place I have family that I see regularly is in Arizona, not exactly the friendliest place to move to. I have an almost two year old nephew, so it would be very hard for me to move away from him. Also I am currently living at home, so my expenses would likely double if not triple.
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As important as family is, it's still a choice. If you think you could be happier living in a big city, you can always move back home after a few years.
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Here's my gay two cents: :-)
1. The only reason I found this website was because of an article I read with a picture of MMM. He's sort of my type lol.
2. The LGBTTIAQQ* community has its own specific work issues as has been mentioned. W're more likely to be discriminated against at work and passed over for promotions (http://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/issues/2011/06/pdf/workplace_discrimination.pdf)
3. Housing can be an issue - some of the rougher or "transitional" neighborhoods with low housing prices may not be gay friendly.
4. When you partner with someone (I don't) in a state that doesn't allow marriage, you get severely screwed on your taxes.
5. In my opinion, speaking specifically about the gay male community, we face additional challenges due to consumerism and anti-mustachian motivations. When marketing firms finally wised-up on the idea that single and coupled men without kids would have more money to spend, we started getting bombarded with advertising. Here in Florida, it's not at all uncommon to find myself invited to a pool party with a $30 cover charge full of men drinking $12 cocktails, wearing $75 bathing suits, and $200 sunglasses. We ate up that consumer message and - unfortunately - incorporated much of it into our community identity.
6. I've had a hell of a time finding a similarly frugal guy to date in real life. Most Mustachian activities are far from flashy and glamorous, making first impressions a delicate display of smoke and mirrors. lol
7. The benefit of FI is sex and gender neutral. We may have to adapt some of the ideas to our specific life circumstances but it can be done. It's worth it.
*Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Two-Spirit (Native American classification), Intersexed, Allied, Queer, and Questioning
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Here's my gay two cents: :-)
2. The LGBTTIAQQ* community has its own specific work issues as has been mentioned. W're more likely to be discriminated against at work and passed over for promotions
5. In my opinion, speaking specifically about the gay male community, we face additional challenges due to consumerism and anti-mustachian motivations. When marketing firms finally wised-up on the idea that single and coupled men without kids would have more money to spend, we started getting bombarded with advertising. Here in Florida, it's not at all uncommon to find myself invited to a pool party with a $30 cover charge full of men drinking $12 cocktails, wearing $75 bathing suits, and $200 sunglasses. We ate up that consumer message and - unfortunately - incorporated much of it into our community identity.
*Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Two-Spirit (Native American classification), Intersexed, Allied, Queer, and Questioning
I always have to chuckle to myself when I see some variation of this: LGBTTIAQQ. How about one easy word to identify the community as a whole: Queer. That one word pretty much encompasses everything not heterosexual.
I definitely see the issues you have with #5. Nearly all of my queer friends are head over heels in consumerism; it's absolutely ridiculous. And I would agree that consumerism / overspending is very much becoming a part of the identity of the queer community. At many parties and gatherings, my wife and I are the only straights in the crowd and several times I've gotten comments because I choose not to wear new, brand name clothing or drink brand name booze. Some guys even laugh and say they instantly knew I was a breeder just because of the clothing. I find it quite unfortunate that heavy spending is almost a must in the community.
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So this discussion is contradicting my early assertion that the queer community isn't particularly frugal or not frugal. It sounds like at least in some circles, being gay does equate to overspending on ridiculous things.
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Me. Please have an LGBT Mustachian meetup in my area?
The local LGBT center is even inaccessible without a car... which, yes, means that any teenagers going to their support group for under 16s need to get their parents or someone else to drive them. It's insane and probably dangerous.
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So this discussion is contradicting my early assertion that the queer community isn't particularly frugal or not frugal. It sounds like at least in some circles, being gay does equate to overspending on ridiculous things.
I think you were on target in the first place, sol. Overspending on ridiculous things happens in a lot of straight circles, too, as we know, and I know craploads of queer folk who run at the frugal end...for mainstream society. Vancouver BC's East Van, for example, hosts a fair number that would meet this definition.
I think that on these forums we find that being frugal is a minority in many of the geographical regions represented (North America, Europe, and so on), while some parts of the world have more people doing low-spending due to circumstances.
A good number of straight people on this forum have said it's really hard to find frugal friends, frugal people to date, etc, in the straight community, too. So, to me it seems the matter is that we Mustachian people -queer or straight- are a minority in any setting: work, church, book clubs, malls, school communities, on the road, etc. We're all swimming against the tide, regardless of the type of water we're in.
A catch is that queer-identified folk have also long been a minority, too, so that ends up being a double whammy. i.e., Finding folks who are openly Mustachian and openly queer...getting statistically lower. (And then one would hope to have additional things in common, too!) Happily, as more and more people across the world feel safe identifying as queer, this gap reduces. And then the same may slowly happen in terms of folks coming around to Mustachian, closing the gap even further.
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Maybe it just feels like there aren't many on here because everyone is primarily focused on finances. Even in my journal I've never seen fit to mention my orientation. I'm also in a stable straight relationship, so it just has never come up that I fall near the middle of the Kinsey scale and have identified as queer. I don't think it's relevant, for the most part. *shrug*
I do sympathise with you, though. It's not easy to be swimming against so many conventional tides. Good luck!
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I understand it's not something that tends to come up in normal conversation, that's why I put the question out there. I figured the number would be low. Mustachians are rare, LGBT people are somewhat rare. So I figured rare times rare equals really rare.
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Hi. I'm a lesbian with a sweetheart who is almost as Mustachian as me, though I handle most of the finances and planning.
No one has been rude to me on these forums. It's live and let live from what I can tell. You're more likely to get a face punch for being reckless with money than anyone giving a fart about sexual orientation.
It took me a long time to find a partner who dealt with money as I do. She wishes she'd met me sooner in life so she'd been wiser with her earnings.
From my dating experience, too many women are looking for someone to take care of them rather than a partnership with a common goal. I'm not making sweeping generalizations about women or lesbians. I'm just sharing my experiences.
Just don't settle for a partner who pulls you away from your goals. It's easy to get lonely, but the wrong partner can do a lot of damage to your life.
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From my dating experience, too many women are looking for someone to take care of them rather than a partnership with a common goal. I'm not making sweeping generalizations about women or lesbians. I'm just sharing my experiences.
Just don't settle for a partner who pulls you away from your goals. It's easy to get lonely, but the wrong partner can do a lot of damage to your life.
This could apply to anyone in the non-LGBTTIAQQ (i.e. "straight") camp as well. Which is why my answer the OP's question is that I believe the ratio is exactly the same across the board. Getting to FIRE is about determination, not orientation.
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From my dating experience, too many women are looking for someone to take care of them rather than a partnership with a common goal. I'm not making sweeping generalizations about women or lesbians. I'm just sharing my experiences.
Just don't settle for a partner who pulls you away from your goals. It's easy to get lonely, but the wrong partner can do a lot of damage to your life.
This could apply to anyone in the non-LGBTTIAQQ (i.e. "straight") camp as well. Which is why my answer the OP's question is that I believe the ratio is exactly the same across the board. Getting to FIRE is about determination, not orientation.
Ok forgive me. I try to keep up with acronyms but this one has me stumped.
Lesbian-Gay-Bi-Trans-T(?)-Intersex-A(?)-Queer-Q(?)
Please help a brother out who is not across these things :)
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Ok forgive me. I try to keep up with acronyms but this one has me stumped.
Lesbian-Gay-Bi-Trans-T(?)-Intersex-A(?)-Queer-Q(?)
Please help a brother out who is not across these things :)
Two-spirited: its historically a Native American person who identifies with both genders (or neither gender) and can be sexually attracted to both/either genders. To oversimplify, think a bisexual person that sometimes crossdresses (or mix-dresses) and during these periods of crossdressing could identify very strongly as the sex opposite their birth gender. As you can see it's a bit complicated and also the definition can vary among different distinct tribal nations.
Allied: any person queer or straight that openly supports the community
Questioning: self explanatory I think.
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I understand it's not something that tends to come up in normal conversation, that's why I put the question out there. I figured the number would be low. Mustachians are rare, LGBT people are somewhat rare. So I figured rare times rare equals really rare.
That's bad math.
Unless there's little overlap in the sets (due to LGBTetc folks being less frugal than average or something), the subset of Mustachians who are LG... should be the same percentage as the subset of the overall population.
In other words, the percentage here should be the same as the percentage elsewhere.
The overall raw number may be low, due to there not being very many Mustachians and the percentage being low, but the percentage should be the same.
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Allied: any person queer or straight that openly supports the community
Thanks for the explanation TuxedoEagle, I hadn't heard of that one yet. Count me in with the Allied group then. I can't say I've ever had any thoughts other than straight, but I have a hard time understanding why anyone would discriminate based on sexual orientation. Fear I guess, I don't know? It's one of the main reasons I simply can't be Catholic anymore.
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I don't why but seeing the responses made me smile, both that we have a decent sized LGBTQ group on here but also the swift response that it does not matter to from many allies on the board. For a financial site, this forum is quite "liberal" for the lack of a better word, maybe open is the better word and that really makes me happy to be here.
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That which stirs my loins has little impact on the flow of money.
For the record, bi male here.
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New to the boards here.
Have been in a relationship with my husband for 7 years (although only married as of Jan 2014) and I have usually handled the bill payments for most of it. When we met he would be late on every bill even though he had the money in the bank. I wasn't having any of that!
He constantly talks about wanting to be able to retire early, travel more, own a modest home, be debt free... and the like. But when I suggested we sit down to take a look at the mustachian way of life he is not willing. It's the one area in our financial lives where I can't be the leader. :)
It is aggravating because we are in a position now where our combined income and some mustachian thinking could get us to retirement by 40 (I am 31 and he is 29).
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From my dating experience, too many women are looking for someone to take care of them rather than a partnership with a common goal. I'm not making sweeping generalizations about women or lesbians. I'm just sharing my experiences.
Just don't settle for a partner who pulls you away from your goals. It's easy to get lonely, but the wrong partner can do a lot of damage to your life.
This could apply to anyone in the non-LGBTTIAQQ (i.e. "straight") camp as well. Which is why my answer the OP's question is that I believe the ratio is exactly the same across the board. Getting to FIRE is about determination, not orientation.
Ok forgive me. I try to keep up with acronyms but this one has me stumped.
Lesbian-Gay-Bi-Trans-T(?)-Intersex-A(?)-Queer-Q(?)
Please help a brother out who is not across these things :)
Sorry, Marty, it was defined upstream in the comments. I was just looking for a more interesting way to say "straight", lest anyone read my comment as judgmental, which is not my intent.
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From my dating experience, too many women are looking for someone to take care of them rather than a partnership with a common goal.
Dudes, too. I haven't dated any gay men, as far as I know, but have dated bisexual men and straight men. In four out of my five serious relationships, the guy wanted me to support him financially. The fifth didn't express any need or desire for me to support him financially -he was solid for bringing in his own income- but he was absolutely unwilling to partner around finances (e.g., divulge his earnings, plan together, file taxes together as would have been required by law, etc) so that ended up being another financial no go.
I agree with you, DocCyane, that we just can't generalize. It'd be too easy if we could know who was a good Mustachian partner just by gender, orientation, location, etc. Alas, we must dig so much more deeply, and into a realm most people don't like to chat about on the first few dates.
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My partner and I passed up buying a low-priced home in a semi-rural area due to seeing graffiti in the neighborhood that suggested "our kind" might not be safe or welcome there.
With most co-workers, I go out of my way to not out myself during small talk about what I did over the weekend, etc. I'm getting antsy about finding a new job that hopefully is more comfortable for me. I agree with the OP and some other posters that there are instances where being LGBT can affect your finances.
As far as 'Does it matter in this forum?' for some people it's just nice to know that there are others around that share a somewhat rare/minority characteristic in common.
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I understand it's not something that tends to come up in normal conversation, that's why I put the question out there. I figured the number would be low. Mustachians are rare, LGBT people are somewhat rare. So I figured rare times rare equals really rare.
That's bad math.
Unless there's little overlap in the sets (due to LGBTetc folks being less frugal than average or something), the subset of Mustachians who are LG... should be the same percentage as the subset of the overall population.
In other words, the percentage here should be the same as the percentage elsewhere.
The overall raw number may be low, due to there not being very many Mustachians and the percentage being low, but the percentage should be the same.
Well that is the math of probability though. The likelihood of two unrelated events is P1 * P2. The likelihood that it's Tuesday is 1/7, the likelihood that it's raining is, say 1/10, the likelihood that it's Tuesday and raining is lower than the likelihood that it's either Tuesday OR it's raining.
Which is just to say that I understood them to be speaking of raw numbers :)
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I understand it's not something that tends to come up in normal conversation, that's why I put the question out there. I figured the number would be low. Mustachians are rare, LGBT people are somewhat rare. So I figured rare times rare equals really rare.
That's bad math.
Unless there's little overlap in the sets (due to LGBTetc folks being less frugal than average or something), the subset of Mustachians who are LG... should be the same percentage as the subset of the overall population.
In other words, the percentage here should be the same as the percentage elsewhere.
The overall raw number may be low, due to there not being very many Mustachians and the percentage being low, but the percentage should be the same.
Well that is the math of probability though. The likelihood of two unrelated events is P1 * P2. The likelihood that it's Tuesday is 1/7, the likelihood that it's raining is, say 1/10, the likelihood that it's Tuesday and raining is lower than the likelihood that it's either Tuesday OR it's raining.
Which is just to say that I understood them to be speaking of raw numbers :)
The bad math is saying "rain is rare, and Tuesday is rarer than any random day, so rain on Tuesday is rarer." No, rain on Tuesday is as likely as on any other day.
Gay Mustachians are as likely as Gay (anything else not correlated with being gay).
Which is just to say that I didn't see them speaking of raw numbers, and feel like it would be silly to do so. Percentage-wise we should have the same amount as the general population.
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Just to throw my hat into the ring,
I'm in more or less the same camp as GoblinChief. Bi, but in a long term monogamous marriage with the opposite gender, so get consistently 'read' as straight, and don't face any of the discrimination issues in any meaningful way. (aside from feeling unable to 'out' myself in my church community, which is another whole discussion, but doesn't impact on my finances :) )
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...for some people it's just nice to know that there are others around that share a somewhat rare/minority characteristic in common.
Totally.
Across this forum this is definitely expressed around variables such as autism, low income, autoimmune challenges, single parenting, adoption, alcoholic parents, location, grandparents that hoard, etc. Anywhere we find people with a distinctive and life-influencing variable in common, many of us definitely feel more welcome, safe, understood, and connected here (as elsewhere).
At least one person has talked about the potential impact of polyamory on their finances, which I found very interesting. And several members recently connected around the oddity of "wealthy parents who ask their low-income children to make expensive trips to go see said wealthy parents", or "parents who fund some of their kids' visits but not theirs". Finding these very specific matters in common seems to have brought energy and healing to people who have been feeling some angst (guilt, sadness, frustration). Finances are so interconnected with all parts of our lives: emotional, relational, psychological, etc.
Not even tongue-in-cheek, I'm a little bit tempted to name my next Journal (per new goals) with something like "Canadian, autism, no co-parent, low income", all of which definitely impact my finances, so as to welcome and build community with people who have any one or more of these variables in common with me. Not that I'd want to restrict the sub-community to that, but I acknowledge that so many aspects of who we are really do impact our finances, and also that when we find people with major yet distinct variables in common, we can feel more relief, safety, connection, hope, and encouragement in seeing their successes. To that end, I really appreciate people sharing their distinct variables and/or the more vulnerable aspects of their life journey.
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So just for fun (no offense intended, I'm a numbers guy so I like this stuff), let's put some rough numbers out there:
There are currently 14,213 members registered on the forum. Obviously there are many who never participate in discussions, and there are many more who simply read MMM and never visit the forum. I can't begin to estimate those numbers so maybe someone else can play this game too. I grabbed a few solid numbers though from the demographics I can find easily.
Based on this link which I also saw quoted on wiki so hopefully it's accurate (I heard a stat long ago that 1 in 13 men were gay, and that's 7.69%):
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/how-many-people-are-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender/
I'm estimating 10-15% of Americans as LGBTQ.... (3.5% are L&G, about 0.31% are T, 11% acted on same sex attractions, nearly 15% acknowledge some same-sex attractions) so if mustachians and Americans have roughly the same proportion of LGBTQ... then:
Forum members = 14,213 * 10% = 1,421 or * 15% = 2,132
Most online today = 799 * 10% = 80 or * 15% = 120
Most online ever = 1,093 * 10% = 109 or * 15% = 164
MMM readers = ? I think I once read over half a million unique visitors to the site, but I bet a large majority of them immediately dismissed it after reading one post.
Obviously the mustachian demographic is not exactly indicative of the population as a whole, but we could argue it could be both more or less representative. Maybe we tend to be more liberal. Maybe LGBTQ... tend to be more frivolous with money. All things considered, and from everything I've read in this thread and many other threads, I wouldn't be surprised if these numbers were close. I believe I could now name 20 LGBTQ members off the top of my head, not that I would ever make such a list. Remember, I'm Allied so I hope no one is offended by my little exercise.
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I understand it's not something that tends to come up in normal conversation, that's why I put the question out there. I figured the number would be low. Mustachians are rare, LGBT people are somewhat rare. So I figured rare times rare equals really rare.
That's bad math.
Unless there's little overlap in the sets (due to LGBTetc folks being less frugal than average or something), the subset of Mustachians who are LG... should be the same percentage as the subset of the overall population.
In other words, the percentage here should be the same as the percentage elsewhere.
The overall raw number may be low, due to there not being very many Mustachians and the percentage being low, but the percentage should be the same.
Well that is the math of probability though. The likelihood of two unrelated events is P1 * P2. The likelihood that it's Tuesday is 1/7, the likelihood that it's raining is, say 1/10, the likelihood that it's Tuesday and raining is lower than the likelihood that it's either Tuesday OR it's raining.
Which is just to say that I understood them to be speaking of raw numbers :)
The bad math is saying "rain is rare, and Tuesday is rarer than any random day, so rain on Tuesday is rarer." No, rain on Tuesday is as likely as on any other day.
Gay Mustachians are as likely as Gay (anything else not correlated with being gay).
Which is just to say that I didn't see them speaking of raw numbers, and feel like it would be silly to do so. Percentage-wise we should have the same amount as the general population.
So just for fun (no offense intended, I'm a numbers guy so I like this stuff), let's put some rough numbers out there:
There are currently 14,213 members registered on the forum. Obviously there are many who never participate in discussions, and there are many more who simply read MMM and never visit the forum. I can't begin to estimate those numbers so maybe someone else can play this game too. I grabbed a few solid numbers though from the demographics I can find easily.
Based on this link which I also saw quoted on wiki so hopefully it's accurate (I heard a stat long ago that 1 in 13 men were gay, and that's 7.69%):
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/how-many-people-are-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender/
I'm estimating 10-15% of Americans as LGBTQ.... (3.5% are L&G, about 0.31% are T, 11% acted on same sex attractions, nearly 15% acknowledge some same-sex attractions) so if mustachians and Americans have roughly the same proportion of LGBTQ... then:
Forum members = 14,213 * 10% = 1,421 or * 15% = 2,132
Most online today = 799 * 10% = 80 or * 15% = 120
Most online ever = 1,093 * 10% = 109 or * 15% = 164
MMM readers = ? I think I once read over half a million unique visitors to the site, but I bet a large majority of them immediately dismissed it after reading one post.
Obviously the mustachian demographic is not exactly indicative of the population as a whole, but we could argue it could be both more or less representative. Maybe we tend to be more liberal. Maybe LGBTQ... tend to be more frivolous with money. All things considered, and from everything I've read in this thread and many other threads, I wouldn't be surprised if these numbers were close. I believe I could now name 20 LGBTQ members off the top of my head, not that I would ever make such a list. Remember, I'm Allied so I hope no one is offended by my little exercise.
Thanks for running possible numbers. My two cents: it's probably representative of the overal population.
I don't why but seeing the responses made me smile, both that we have a decent sized LGBTQ group on here but also the swift response that it does not matter to from many allies on the board. For a financial site, this forum is quite "liberal" for the lack of a better word, maybe open is the better word and that really makes me happy to be here.
I think that Mustachianism attracts those who score a little higher on openness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits#Openness_to_experience
People who are open to experience are intellectually curious, open to emotion, sensitive to beauty and willing to try new things. They tend to be, when compared to closed people, more creative and more aware of their feelings. They are also more likely to hold unconventional beliefs.
I would posit that Mustachianism is more likely to be tried by those open to new things. We, as a group, hold the unconventional belief that saving for FIRE is a good idea. With that train of thought, LGBT Mustachians would be higher than average. I'd say that in real life, it falls around average.
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Count me gay. Intersectionality of identities and societal labeling of such identities - both, ascribed and avowed is begin studied currently at great depth.
Intersectionality: I am a foreign national, non-white in race hence easily "ascribed" by others as immigrant/alien etc. But my sexual orientation isn't usually easily ascribed. Based on stereotypes and mannerisms, a few may label me gay and would be right.
I have a STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering & Math) background and profession, so it is a part of my "avowed" identity. It is apparent from my ease of number, being analytical, willingness to look up data etc. I do introduce myself as an engineer.
So community cannot simply be identity specific, say "LGBT mustachians." A community engenders a label and then that label starts getting both ascribed and avowed as an identity. For example, group of people seeking FIRE and visiting this forum and embracing minimalist life style, adopt the brand of the forum and blog - they become mustachians!
I hope this is helpful to OP. I recently was at a STEM LGBT conference, where I met a few Wisconsin folks wanting to leave because of perceived hostile environment. I asked them, would they rather stay and seize the opportunity to usher in change? Wouldn't their life be more meaningful because of it? Would moving elsewhere guarantee no discrimination? This was just the start of the discussion ... Btw, I am in the buckle of the bible belt and glad to enjoy to the great quality of living and super frugal life and plenty of gay friends.
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I understand it's not something that tends to come up in normal conversation, that's why I put the question out there. I figured the number would be low. Mustachians are rare, LGBT people are somewhat rare. So I figured rare times rare equals really rare.
That's bad math.
Unless there's little overlap in the sets (due to LGBTetc folks being less frugal than average or something), the subset of Mustachians who are LG... should be the same percentage as the subset of the overall population.
In other words, the percentage here should be the same as the percentage elsewhere.
The overall raw number may be low, due to there not being very many Mustachians and the percentage being low, but the percentage should be the same.
Well that is the math of probability though. The likelihood of two unrelated events is P1 * P2. The likelihood that it's Tuesday is 1/7, the likelihood that it's raining is, say 1/10, the likelihood that it's Tuesday and raining is lower than the likelihood that it's either Tuesday OR it's raining.
Which is just to say that I understood them to be speaking of raw numbers :)
The bad math is saying "rain is rare, and Tuesday is rarer than any random day, so rain on Tuesday is rarer." No, rain on Tuesday is as likely as on any other day.
Gay Mustachians are as likely as Gay (anything else not correlated with being gay).
Which is just to say that I didn't see them speaking of raw numbers, and feel like it would be silly to do so. Percentage-wise we should have the same amount as the general population.
Oh, no, I get what you were saying was bad math. It's just, if someone is looking for a group of people with similar experiences they can connect to, it makes sense they'd be happy with a certain number of similar people, not be concerned with the composition of the whole group. If they find a satisfactory quorum of LGBT folks to discuss their issue with, I don't see it bothering them if it turns out there are more straight people than they expected.
Perhaps I'm wrong and it's something more like extroversion/introversion or political leanings, where people might complain that too many perspectives on the board are those of introverts or liberals and therefore it's hard to have a good discussion.
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Sure, but the original post was:
Is it rare for LGBT people to be Mustachian or am I just not noticing them?
And my point was: no rarer than in any other segment of the population.
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Sure, but the original post was:
Is it rare for LGBT people to be Mustachian or am I just not noticing them?
And my point was: no rarer than in any other segment of the population.
Ah ha :) And what I read from the original post was:
I haven't seen much mention of it on here except for one post in the dating section that got zero response.
That is, they were judging by how active the topic was. Specifically in terms of numbers. So the "rare" struck me as intending more the 'unusual' meaning, few and far between, sparse, rather than the 'low percentage' meaning. If you go scuba diving it's rare to see a fish even though fish are the most common sea creatures.
Ah, reading interpretations...
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Good point.
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Ooh Ooh Count me! Count me! 4.7 on the Kinsey Scale, happily married to another woman. Often refer to myself as lesbian because I am too lazy to remember if I am attracted to men that day. Sorry, not so into Furries, Virginia Bob, but I might be okay with a were-tiger.
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Considering that this forum is almost entirely composed of either libertarians and liberal hippies, I don't think anyone here thinks it's that big of a deal if someone in this community is gay. We are a very accepting bunch of people. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of LGBT mustachians mirrors the general percentage of gays in society. There really isn't anything about Mustachianism that would favor one orientation over another.
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I want to put out there ...would anybody be interested in a social group online for LGBT related stuff to enable non-mustachian discussions. If allowed on the forum we could do it here. I don't know if a thread already exists.
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I think that would just go under off topic.
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I want to put out there ...would anybody be interested in a social group online for LGBT related stuff to enable non-mustachian discussions. If allowed on the forum we could do it here. I don't know if a thread already exists.
kd2008, I'd politely ask you to reconsider. Mustachians are a pretty accepting group. Getting to FIRE is pretty orientation non-specific. Please stay and hang out with everyone. You're welcome here and we wouldn't want to miss any great input anyone came up with. Since we all have the same or similar goals, let's stick together and help each other out. Just my two cents.
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Various people have started their own Google Groups to discuss other topics as well.
I want to put out there ...would anybody be interested in a social group online for LGBT related stuff to enable non-mustachian discussions. If allowed on the forum we could do it here. I don't know if a thread already exists.
kd2008, I'd politely ask you to reconsider. Mustachians are a pretty accepting group. Getting to FIRE is pretty orientation non-specific. Please stay and hang out with everyone. You're welcome here and we wouldn't want to miss any great input anyone came up with. Since we all have the same or similar goals, let's stick together and help each other out. Just my two cents.
I assumed (s)he meant for non-Mustachian topics, and they'd continue to use the forum for Mustachian topics.
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Various people have started their own Google Groups to discuss other topics as well.
I want to put out there ...would anybody be interested in a social group online for LGBT related stuff to enable non-mustachian discussions. If allowed on the forum we could do it here. I don't know if a thread already exists.
kd2008, I'd politely ask you to reconsider. Mustachians are a pretty accepting group. Getting to FIRE is pretty orientation non-specific. Please stay and hang out with everyone. You're welcome here and we wouldn't want to miss any great input anyone came up with. Since we all have the same or similar goals, let's stick together and help each other out. Just my two cents.
I assumed (s)he meant for non-Mustachian topics, and they'd continue to use the forum for Mustachian topics.
Yes that is correct. Thanks! I will always come here for Mustachian advice! :)
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Howdy. I'm a G in the LGBT. Been with my husband for 21 years (I'm 41) and married just 1. Being DINKs has allowed us a lot of financial freedom that I see friends with a couple of kids really struggle with. Though we are frugal in our daily lives (rarely go out to eat, do our own housework, our own yard work, frugal daily activities) we splurge on travel. It often blows people away with how often we travel, but when you don't have 2 kids to tote around it isn't hard.
It has also helped that I came into a good amount of inheritance and though we could both retire right now, we keep on plugging away as we enjoy our jobs. We don't like to shop at all, which is the anti-thesis of a lot of gay friends who are always sporting new clothes, new cars, new new new. It seems like there is a lot of pressure on the gay community to have it all - the right clothes, car, house, etc. We know people who really have no retirement but have double BMWs. We're going to retire by 50 (at least I will, maybe my husband will continue working as he loves his job more than I do) and who will have the last laugh. We won't have Beemers but we'll have a lot of time to be outside and hike and bicycle which we both enjoy.
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My closet can attest to the shopping demands of keeping up in the gay community. I no longer buy such things often, but I have remnants from years gone by. $85 pants, $30 shirts, $10 each for a single pair of underwear (actually cheap underwear in the gay community). I am glad to have a financial support group to keep me away from such things. Especially that new Ford Raptor that I should stop wanting.
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I'm uncomfortable attributing consumerism to orientation, and in hearing others do so. Do we not see the same "keeping up with the Joneses", overconsumption, massive debtloads, mis-prioritizing, etc, in the straight community? My community is about 70/30 straight/queer and I'm not seeing a difference. I do see a difference in the closets of Mustachian/non-Mustachian people, regardless of orientation. Am I missing something?? I'm concerned about stereotyping (in any aspect of humanity).
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I don't think anyone is attributing consumerism to a particular orientation, but glbt people are targeted by advertising in different ways than straight people. So the gay Jones's have BMW's and the straight Jones's have, um, fill-in-the-blank.
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I'm uncomfortable attributing consumerism to orientation, and in hearing others do so. Do we not see the same "keeping up with the Joneses", overconsumption, massive debtloads, mis-prioritizing, etc, in the straight community? My community is about 70/30 straight/queer and I'm not seeing a difference. I do see a difference in the closets of Mustachian/non-Mustachian people, regardless of orientation. Am I missing something?? I'm concerned about stereotyping (in any aspect of humanity).
It is subtly different. For someone lgbt in a big city, consumerism is expansive and general. Being a part of consumerism (or not) may be actively thought upon. If you are lgbt in a small town, and you may have a smaller cohort to be with, then consumerism may become a part of this small clique's identity, and peer pressure builds up to remain a part of it. Of course, you may outgrow it, but some do not.
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Here's my gay two cents: :-)
2. The LGBTTIAQQ* community has its own specific work issues as has been mentioned. W're more likely to be discriminated against at work and passed over for promotions
5. In my opinion, speaking specifically about the gay male community, we face additional challenges due to consumerism and anti-mustachian motivations. When marketing firms finally wised-up on the idea that single and coupled men without kids would have more money to spend, we started getting bombarded with advertising. Here in Florida, it's not at all uncommon to find myself invited to a pool party with a $30 cover charge full of men drinking $12 cocktails, wearing $75 bathing suits, and $200 sunglasses. We ate up that consumer message and - unfortunately - incorporated much of it into our community identity.
*Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Two-Spirit (Native American classification), Intersexed, Allied, Queer, and Questioning
I always have to chuckle to myself when I see some variation of this: LGBTTIAQQ. How about one easy word to identify the community as a whole: Queer. That one word pretty much encompasses everything not heterosexual.
A friend of mine's parent (she used to be my friends father but is now her not-birth mother) runs a monthly dinner gathering for local LGBTTIAQQ people. She calls it Alphabet Soup. :)
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I think that yeah, it's likely a similar proportion of people as in the general populace, which probably makes it a real number on the small side, but I'm happy to see there are so many queer folk here as well. I always like knowing I'm not unique in a community in that regard!
So yep, count me as well. It doesn't STRICTLY come up in conversation much in a frugality context, but neither do I on the other hand feel the need or desire to self-censor and refer to my girlfriend as anything other than that.
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I just joined this community recently. I'm gay.
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Here's my gay two cents: :-)
2. The LGBTTIAQQ* community has its own specific work issues as has been mentioned. W're more likely to be discriminated against at work and passed over for promotions
5. In my opinion, speaking specifically about the gay male community, we face additional challenges due to consumerism and anti-mustachian motivations. When marketing firms finally wised-up on the idea that single and coupled men without kids would have more money to spend, we started getting bombarded with advertising. Here in Florida, it's not at all uncommon to find myself invited to a pool party with a $30 cover charge full of men drinking $12 cocktails, wearing $75 bathing suits, and $200 sunglasses. We ate up that consumer message and - unfortunately - incorporated much of it into our community identity.
*Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Two-Spirit (Native American classification), Intersexed, Allied, Queer, and Questioning
I always have to chuckle to myself when I see some variation of this: LGBTTIAQQ. How about one easy word to identify the community as a whole: Queer. That one word pretty much encompasses everything not heterosexual.
A friend of mine's parent (she used to be my friends father but is now her not-birth mother) runs a monthly dinner gathering for local LGBTTIAQQ people. She calls it Alphabet Soup. :)
My group of friends calls it Alphabet Soup too :-)
Tangent, I wish the catch-all term for the community wasn't queer as the root definition of the word is "odd" or "strange" and perpetuates ideas of otherness. But jeepers rattling off all the letters can become cumbersome! :-)
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Tangent, I wish the catch-all term for the community wasn't queer as the root definition of the word is "odd" or "strange" and perpetuates ideas of otherness. But jeepers rattling off all the letters can become cumbersome! :-)
This is true! But there are many words out there that have weird origins but are acceptable, vice versa as well. Take for example "fag" or "faggot". Quite harmless historically and still today in the UK (I have an old friend who uses it to refer to something that's dreary or boring). However, in the US and Canada its considered very offensive when referring to a gay person. At the end of the day it's all boils down to what you make of it.
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Various people have started their own Google Groups to discuss other topics as well.
I want to put out there ...would anybody be interested in a social group online for LGBT related stuff to enable non-mustachian discussions. If allowed on the forum we could do it here. I don't know if a thread already exists.
kd2008, I'd politely ask you to reconsider. Mustachians are a pretty accepting group. Getting to FIRE is pretty orientation non-specific. Please stay and hang out with everyone. You're welcome here and we wouldn't want to miss any great input anyone came up with. Since we all have the same or similar goals, let's stick together and help each other out. Just my two cents.
I assumed (s)he meant for non-Mustachian topics, and they'd continue to use the forum for Mustachian topics.
Yes that is correct. Thanks! I will always come here for Mustachian advice! :)
I appreciate what you're saying. I just wanted to make sure that it was clear that everyone, whatever their color of the rainbow or letter of the alphabet, is welcome here.
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I just wanted to make sure that it was clear that everyone, whatever their color of the rainbow or letter of the alphabet, is welcome here.
Can I get a letter of my own? I want to feel included in the minority love, even though I'm a straight white dude who has spent his entire life enjoying the privileges of the patriarchy.
I'm open to suggestions.
On second thought, I guess that's what the A is for.
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I didn't read all of the posts here so forgive me if someone else has already brought it up.
I personally don't care what persuasion you are. I see no difference between being hetero, lesbian, gay, African American, Asian, Native American, First Nation, blue, green, purple or mauve fer cripes sake when it comes to Mustachianism.
There are perceived handicaps when one labels themselves and Mustachians rise above and go beyond any perceived handicaps to become free. Be it age, sexual persuasion, gender, circumstances, childhood influences . . . we're all on this site to read and learn from eachother.
Appreciate one another please. No labeling.
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I didn't read all of the posts here so forgive me if someone else has already brought it up.
I personally don't care what persuasion you are. I see no difference between being hetero, lesbian, gay, African American, Asian, Native American, First Nation, blue, green, purple or mauve fer cripes sake when it comes to Mustachianism.
There are perceived handicaps when one labels themselves and Mustachians rise above and go beyond any perceived handicaps to become free. Be it age, sexual persuasion, gender, circumstances, childhood influences . . . we're all on this site to read and learn from eachother.
Appreciate one another please. No labeling.
Okay, I'll do it: you're forgiven. I think when you make time to read all the comments, Miamoo, you'll be pleasantly surprised. No one is pointing any fingers or pasting labels on anyone else. Your concerns are appreciated, but so far, seem to be mostly unfounded on this thread.
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I haven't seen much mention of it on here except for one post in the dating section that got zero response. Is it rare for LGBT people to be Mustachian or am I just not noticing them?
I'm a lot of labels, most of which I have to keep carefully hidden at work. I've been open about my atheism and veganism at work. The former has caused serious friction with my extremely religiously conservative coworker, the latter just endless repetition of "I couldn't do that weird thing." Because said coworker is my senior, I've had concerns lately that I'm losing out on work due to her semi hidden dislike. So there is that financial effect.
Oh yeah. I'm straight but I'm a dominant sadistic (BDSM sense) polyamorous white cis-female who wouldn't mind dominating any gender or non gender if I clicked with them. Depends on what toys you're into to get your kink on, that could have another financial effect. Thankfully, my second partner/ "husband" is very carpentry inclined, so my spanking bench was very affordable with the help of a DIY book.
Other effects: I'm pretty sure I would have to straight up lie to foster-to-adopt. I'm pretty sure if either my poly or kink lifestyle came out to the right supervisor, I would be fired under the "morality clause." Because, you know, despite the 100% consent I receive, I'm abusing my partners and cheating on my husband.
I did go see "Her" this year because I heard it was poly friendly, so that was spending I wouldn't have otherwise done. And it was a disappointment too, because the A.I. was cheating on him, which isn't a poly relationship, even if she, the A.I., was poly herself. I've had to outright buy books regarding my interests, because the only poly books at the library are "Ethical Slut" and "Opening Up". BDSM non fiction is non existent at the library, so the BDSM DIY book had to be purchased with my funds rather than a borrow from the library. Nothing but Cosmopolitan Smut and 50 Shades of Grey trash at the library is related to BDSM. Which, don't get me wrong, I enjoy a little trash on the rare occasion but it's all submissive females and dominant males. Just doesn't suit me.
Anyhow. Lots of different folks everywhere. Definitely some effects due to our differences, but nothing that should keep me too far off from FI so long as I completely closet myself and keep my mouth shut.
Makes me glad my differences aren't outwardly visible since I'd be more of a target. Hats off to those who can't hide so well.
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Considering that this forum is almost entirely composed of either libertarians and liberal hippies, I don't think anyone here thinks it's that big of a deal if someone in this community is gay. We are a very accepting bunch of people. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of LGBT mustachians mirrors the general percentage of gays in society. There really isn't anything about Mustachianism that would favor one orientation over another.
I would just like it duly noted that being either libertarian or liberal is not the only political designation to which people who are accepting of LGBT (and all the other letters) people are aligned. I am a proud conservative, Christian, Texas woman and I support marriage equality and just voted for my county to include sexual orientation to the list of protected classes with respect to the county's hiring and employment decisions.
So, please, just as others don't like it when they are pigeon holed based on race/sexual orientation/etc., conservatives (who sincerely do not have a problem with marriage equality or other similar social issues) don't like it when people assume all conservatives are evangelical, backwoods rednecks who open carry guns to Target or whatever.
Rant over.
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It depends on if you are socially conservative or fiscally conservative. Socially conservative actually means pro "traditional marriage, life (anti-abortion), guns" but if you want to reclaim it as something else that's cool with me.
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It depends on if you are socially conservative or fiscally conservative. Socially conservative actually means pro "traditional marriage, life (anti-abortion), guns" but if you want to reclaim it as something else that's cool with me.
I am fiscally conservative, more in the middle on social issues. For example, I believe you (the indefinite you) have the right to own a gun (the right to which is protected by our constitution), although personally I do not own one. I also believe you have the right to make your own choices with respect to abortion, however, I would not choose to have an abortion myself as I believe life begins at conception. I am incredibly saddened when others view abortion as a form of birth control, but they can exercise their own free will. It's not for me to judge. I believe in small government, individual responsibility, personal accountability and in capitalism. Does that cover it?
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Yeah, that's basically libertarian views almost verbatim kkbmustang. That's not what conservatism is anymore.
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Yeah, that's basically libertarian views almost verbatim kkbmustang. That's not what conservatism is anymore.
Indeed. Good views, btw. ;)
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Tangent, I wish the catch-all term for the community wasn't queer as the root definition of the word is "odd" or "strange" and perpetuates ideas of otherness. But jeepers rattling off all the letters can become cumbersome! :-)
This is true! But there are many words out there that have weird origins but are acceptable, vice versa as well. Take for example "fag" or "faggot". Quite harmless historically and still today in the UK (I have an old friend who uses it to refer to something that's dreary or boring). However, in the US and Canada its considered very offensive when referring to a gay person. At the end of the day it's all boils down to what you make of it.
Really? I am originally from the UK, and to me fag = cigarette, sometimes "tiring" (as in, I am all fagged out)
Faggot is a meatball.
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They both stem from the traditional boarding/residential school practice of "fagging" - apprenticing a new entrant student to a senior student to be their "fag" - their gopher, general dogs-body etc.
In the bad old days the duties of a fag would be to do *whatever* the senior student required. Even when my mother was at boarding school (the 1960s), the attached boys' school practiced fagging.
I believe it probably stemmed from a noble desire to mentor and protect the younger boys, while providing leadership opportunities for the older boys, but actually created an environment where truly vile breaches of trust could occur with the official sanctioning of the school.
Hence "fag" could carry connotations of sodomy, due to abuse by older boys, and in time applied to all same-gender sexuality. It also explains the "I'm all fagged out" being "tired" explanation - It's the equivalent of "slaved away all day and am had it".
Fag as in cigarette seems to have a different origin - perhaps tied to a faggot of wood, or 'flag', as in 'the rag end of something like cloth'.
Interestingly, 'faggot' as a perjorative term is of an unclear origin, as the practice of 'fagging' in schools never used that word - they were always referred to as 'fags'. But 'Faggot' has been documented as an insult towards *women* back in the day - perhaps similar to the word "baggage"
Sorry, major derail there. I'm a word/etymology obsessive and couldn't help myself!
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Lesbian here. I'm out here on the forums, but I tend to discuss queer issues in other spaces. Queer-specific conversations on this forum tend to attract more cis-hetero opinions than they do queer opinions.
I just wanted to make sure that it was clear that everyone, whatever their color of the rainbow or letter of the alphabet, is welcome here.
Can I get a letter of my own? I want to feel included in the minority love, even though I'm a straight white dude who has spent his entire life enjoying the privileges of the patriarchy.
I'm open to suggestions.
On second thought, I guess that's what the A is for.
The "A" is actually for "asexual." I tend to think straight cis white dudes have enough special privileges that they can stand to be excluded from at least one club ;)
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Lesbian here. I'm out here on the forums, but I tend to discuss queer issues in other spaces. Queer-specific conversations on this forum tend to attract more cis-hetero opinions than they do queer opinions.
I just wanted to make sure that it was clear that everyone, whatever their color of the rainbow or letter of the alphabet, is welcome here.
Can I get a letter of my own? I want to feel included in the minority love, even though I'm a straight white dude who has spent his entire life enjoying the privileges of the patriarchy.
I'm open to suggestions.
On second thought, I guess that's what the A is for.
The "A" is actually for "asexual." I tend to think straight cis white dudes have enough special privileges that they can stand to be excluded from at least one club ;)
Tangent again - Is anyone else troubled by the frequency of the use of "cis"? I feel that it's just another tool to force a level of otherness on Trans people. Saying I'm a cis-male implies that "I'm privileged to have started this way while Trans folks have to work at it" and throws my privilege immediately into the conversation. Likewise, doggedly forcing Trans issues into yet another dichotomy implies that once a Trans person has transitioned, she or he isn't somehow fully the goal gender of the transition (presuming their intent was to transition into the cis-binary as there are many who don't aspire to that goal and are quite happy in their third or alternative gender identity). I could also say that the cis designation subconsciously prizes the perceived authenticity of having been born with body and gender matching. When, really, there's nothing at all inauthentic about the journey of a Trans person; it's just another path through life with different challenges.
Bringin' it back - We always think about Mustachianism in terms of FIRE but I would imagine offsetting the cost of hormones and reassignment surgeries might be a heck of a draw for Trans folks. I want a house in the suburbs and a handy husband. Maybe Bill wants his breasts removed and ready access to testosterone (and a house in the suburbs and a handy husband). :-)
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Tangent again - Is anyone else troubled by the frequency of the use of "cis"?
No, but I am troubled by the frequency of cis-folks refusing to be called "cis." As a gender non-conforming person, I sure feel more welcome in communities where cis white dudes can accept the "cis" title without launching into a concern-trolling, mansplainy screed about how calling them "cis" somehow oppresses me.
Life is a rich tapestry!
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Yeah, that's basically libertarian views almost verbatim kkbmustang. That's not what conservatism is anymore.
Indeed. Good views, btw. ;)
Really? Color me surprised. :)
And thanks, ARebelSpy. I like my views.
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Tangent again - Is anyone else troubled by the frequency of the use of "cis"?
No, but I am troubled by the frequency of cis-folks refusing to be called "cis." As a gender non-conforming person, I sure feel more welcome in communities where cis white dudes can accept the "cis" title without launching into a concern-trolling, mansplainy screed about how calling them "cis" somehow oppresses me.
Life is a rich tapestry!
Well I guess that puts me in my place.
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Bi mustachian here (really pan, but I normally identify as bi for the sake of simplicity)--just chiming in to be counted. FWIW, the only other person I have met via the boards (other than MMM himself) was a bi mustachian as well (responding to an ad in the personals section).
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The "A" is actually for "asexual." I tend to think straight cis white dudes have enough special privileges that they can stand to be excluded from at least one club ;)
According to the internet, and everything I've ever seen IRL, the A can also stand for "allied", and was included as a way of recognizing the contributions of people who support LGBT rights without themselves identifying as a minority.
But if you want to exclude people who are fighting on your behalf, go right ahead.
Guess who didn't get to vote to give women the right to vote. Women! Guess who didn't abolish slavery. Black people! All of these worthy movements need the eventual support of the "straight cis white dudes" you deride if they're going to be successful. I just don't see the point of reflecting on hate with more hate. When you're clearly "in the right" shouldn't you accept everyone who wants to get on board with your ideas?
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I identify as a queer cis-man. I believe the Money Mustache way essentially queers personal finance norms, questioning them, defying them, becoming willfully indifferent to them in pursuit of a better way of living. For me, queer sexuality goes beyond the bedroom and opens up the possibility to do all of those things to other social norms and conventions.
I appreciate hearing other LGBT folks are on here, and I'd be curious what you are doing with your capital in a cultural/social sense, especially if you happen not to have children.
I'm curious to hear if FIRE looks different somehow for LGBT folks.
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They both stem from the traditional boarding/residential school practice of "fagging" - apprenticing a new entrant student to a senior student to be their "fag" - their gopher, general dogs-body etc.
In the bad old days the duties of a fag would be to do *whatever* the senior student required. Even when my mother was at boarding school (the 1960s), the attached boys' school practiced fagging.
I believe it probably stemmed from a noble desire to mentor and protect the younger boys, while providing leadership opportunities for the older boys, but actually created an environment where truly vile breaches of trust could occur with the official sanctioning of the school.
Hence "fag" could carry connotations of sodomy, due to abuse by older boys, and in time applied to all same-gender sexuality. It also explains the "I'm all fagged out" being "tired" explanation - It's the equivalent of "slaved away all day and am had it".
Fag as in cigarette seems to have a different origin - perhaps tied to a faggot of wood, or 'flag', as in 'the rag end of something like cloth'.
Interestingly, 'faggot' as a perjorative term is of an unclear origin, as the practice of 'fagging' in schools never used that word - they were always referred to as 'fags'. But 'Faggot' has been documented as an insult towards *women* back in the day - perhaps similar to the word "baggage"
Sorry, major derail there. I'm a word/etymology obsessive and couldn't help myself!
I went to an English boarding school in the 80's, and we still had fagging, so, yes, am aware of that, but don't think it would translate to the Americans using fag as an insult. Junior boys had to deliver papers/ shine shoes/ make tea etc on a roster. It wasn't school sanctioned (it was officially banned) but school boys are very traditional...
(as an aside, a school boy study was the most communist/ egalitarian place I've been. All property was communal property, and you would mess together. We had a rich malaysian chinese in our study, so had an amazing sound system for the time...)
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It can lead to a higher fuel bill with visiting more progressive cites to get away from your lower cost of living and lower level of acceptance town.
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The "A" is actually for "asexual." I tend to think straight cis white dudes have enough special privileges that they can stand to be excluded from at least one club ;)
According to the internet, and everything I've ever seen IRL, the A can also stand for "allied", and was included as a way of recognizing the contributions of people who support LGBT rights without themselves identifying as a minority.
Sol, , you're totally right on the "A" for allies. Much appreciated too!
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Have you all read about the newness in OKCupid?!?!?! Apparently they are rolling out way more options under orientation and sexuality! http://tinyurl.com/k6jcb5t I was one of the (apparently many) people that requested this. I'm so excited and thrilled that it's coming true!
Now, let's start a new petition that it also include a spectrum for frugal to spendy :)
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Hello all, I'm gay and I am assuming my partner is too, otherwise things would be pretty awkward! :-P All Kidding aside I think for the most part, financially speaking, there aren't too many differences between gay & straight couples. The big ones that stick out in my mind would be:
1-Gay male couples would most likely earn more than straight couples (and both earn more than lesbian couples).
2-Having a kid for gay male couples can have a lot of upfront costs in terms of adoption or surrogacy.
3-Lastly, I read an interesting article a while ago about gay folk who grew up in small times are more likely to be successful then their fellows. This was theorized to be because they have a motivation to leave their (often bigoted) small towns and the drive to succeed once they reached a more metropolitan area! Wish I could find the link...
None of the above would particularly lead to a more mustachian lifestyle. I have been fortunate to surround myself with friends who share similar life choices. Even before I met my partner I only really dated very frugal gay folk. Whether gay, straight or anything else it is good to share a similar lifestyle. Thats my 2 cents anyway.