The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: ministache on September 10, 2014, 08:43:48 AM
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We are getting ready to break up with our overpriced ATT cell service. Ptel looks like our top choice for a pay-as-you-go provider. The savings should be substantial as we rarely use our phones for anything other than sending text messages. Ok, right now we use our monthly data plans, but we're 99% sure we spend enough time around wifi to not miss that feature. Especially with a baby due any day now, we don't want to be the parents too busy on iPhones to watch their child grow up.
All of that said, we both currently own iPhones and we are out of our contract. Debating going with a true dumbphone instead of just getting new SIM cards for our current iPhones. For those of you who gave up data plans, how tough was it? Do you regret carrying a phone that cannot access the web?
Thanks!
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In the US, given the price of Republic Wireless and Ting, et al. I see no financial reason not to have a smart phone. Is there a dumb phone deal out there that beats a used Moto G + $10/month service from RW?
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Is there a dumb phone deal out there that beats a used Moto G + $10/month service from RW?
Only in the sense that my dumb phone cost $10 new. How much does a used smartphone cost?
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In the US, given the price of Republic Wireless and Ting, et al. I see no financial reason not to have a smart phone. Is there a dumb phone deal out there that beats a used Moto G + $10/month service from RW?
There is so much desperately wrong with this statement, I don't even know where to begin without sounding like a broken record that's been saying the same friggin' thing for two and a half years.
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Is there a dumb phone deal out there that beats a used Moto G + $10/month service from RW?
Only in the sense that my dumb phone cost $10 new. How much does a used smartphone cost?
More than $10 no doubt, what does your dumb phone plan run?
Based on ebay completed listing I would say a used moto g could be had for $110.
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Because you are leaving AT&T, I would just switch to airvoice and use your current phone. Start with the $10 month plan. You can have data enabled on that plan, but I think you have to call them to do it. It's charged by the kb on that plan, so it would only be if you REALLY needed something. If that doesn't work for you, their $30/month plan has 500 mb data.
I must warn you, on the $10 month plan, it tells you what your balance is either before or after every call. Not a big deal, but tiresome.
Don't understand why people are suggesting new phones when they already own iphones.
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Is there a dumb phone deal out there that beats a used Moto G + $10/month service from RW?
Only in the sense that my dumb phone cost $10 new. How much does a used smartphone cost?
$50 or less (Nexus S 4G was my first smart phone for $45 including shipping), but you could be paying as little as $2/month for cell service (when needed) and mostly relying on Wifi.
Also, a smart phone can save you money in other ways (discounts in apps, not needing to buy a gps/maps, etc...).
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I'm a brand new Mustachian and I can tell you that the smartphone is the deal breaker for me. I'll never give mine up. I think it's a very Mustachian commodity considering you essentially have the entirety of humanity's knowledge in your pocket.
But I feel you can be Mustachian with your choice. I got the iPhone 4 (my first ever smartphone) in 2010 and was nearly done with my contract (which would have reduced my monthly payment from £33 to £12), but I then discovered my service started an All You Can Eat data plan which was a godsend after suffering a terrible 500MB monthly allowance. Trouble is, they wouldn't let me switch to it on my iPhone 4. The only way to have that plan was to upgrade to the iPhone 5 and reset my contract all over again.
Now I'm coming up to upgrade eligibility again, I can soon get the brand new super duper mega-screen-sized iPhone 6 Plus that's soon to hit the shelves, thus resetting my contract. However, being that the iPhone 5 does everything you could want in a smartphone along with having unlimited internet usage, and I'm under a year away from having my £35 monthly payment reduce to £15... I am sticking to my Mustachian guns and choosing to stick with this phone until it dies (presumably in 10 years with good care).
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Don't understand why people are suggesting new phones when they already own iphones.
They could sell the iphones buy a different phone and have cash leftover + the iPhone limits them in the type of plans they can be on.
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It won't be that difficult and it's easy to go back. I went with iPod + Flip Phone for about a year. It was fine. In the end I prefer having a smartphone.
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Also those without smartphones, do you think you will buy some sort of MP3 playinig device, Camera, Alarm Clock, GPS or any number of standalone devices that a smartphone can take the place of?
My Smartphone allows me to participate in one of my favorite hobbies: Geocaching. That along is worth the Money I shell out to Republic Wireless.
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Sorry I can't answer OP's question, but I have something to share with likely readers of this thread. I'm also facing the end of an AT&T iPhone contract. I like making shitty spreadsheets, so I attached on I started to compare options compatible with my phone. My motivation is to 1) find a better plan for me alone and 2) find a solution for my data-hungry sibling and my consuma sucka parents, possibly having all three on a share plan.
I ran a quick trade study on the second tab showing monthly price vs. data usage for several plans and number of phones. I didn't end up getting Tmobilek, P'tel or Go Smart onto the charts, but you can add those if you want. What's interesting is that there are dead zones for 2 and 3 phones where certain plans cost the same or more for less data. Just an interesting thought.
My personal opinion is that some data is worth the price to me and I already paid for a good phone and don't want the world to manufacture another one for me until it's dead. I am tracking my data usage very closely to see what my baseline amount is. I recommend this for anyone waiting a few months for their contract to expire. I use about half or a third of what I thought I did, so it changes my perspective of what plans fit me or are worth downsizing to.
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Wow... where are we again? Did this turn into the super happy funtime hedonic treadmill forums when I wasn't looking?
Someone is looking to strip down their mobile bill to the bare minimum, and people come out of the woodwork sticking up manufactured reasoning to justify spending more money and indulge in wasteful consumerism. BRAVO!
One one hand, I'm divided because from an e-waste and frugality standpoint, I want to encourage the whole use it up and wear it out idea... you bought the fool iPhones, so I want you to use them until they're dead. That said, I know how disruptive these little slabs have become to people's lives and heartily encourage this sort of deliberate stepping down and away due to the dependency-creating and distracting nature of these devices.
Ministache, although my own phone currently is smart enough to barely do email on demand and basic web surfing (hard to even find a feature phone that can't run Opera anymore), I barely use it at all. Don't miss it a lick. There is no lost opportunity cost, I'm more personally independent, situationally aware, and don't require the crutch of technology to help me live life. Smartphones are a manufactured dependence upon others to think for you, and you can see how deeply rooted this sort of dependence and laziness can get within others by just seeing the responses and justifications being posted.
People did it all the time no less than ten years ago. Rock on and embrace the change... you don't need to be constantly accessible or have so many "tools" that require a battery to operate. Technology and the always on mentality is quite literally a drug-induced dependency due to the dopamine and serotonin production it causes within the body. Slow down and enjoy life, it'll improve the quality of the time you have with yourselves, each other, and your family. Just try not to buy new on the featurephone replacements if you make the change. :)
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I ran a quick trade study on the second tab showing monthly price vs. data usage for several plans and number of phones. I didn't end up getting Tmobilek, P'tel or Go Smart onto the charts, but you can add those if you want. What's interesting is that there are dead zones for 2 and 3 phones where certain plans cost the same or more for less data. Just an interesting thought.
I skimmed over the spreadsheet, and I think it might be worth your while to add Consumer Cellular and H2O Wireless to the listings for your own personal edification... possibly even Red Pocket and Cricket as well.
My personal opinion is that some data is worth the price to me and I already paid for a good phone and don't want the world to manufacture another one for me until it's dead. I am tracking my data usage very closely to see what my baseline amount is. I recommend this for anyone waiting a few months for their contract to expire. I use about half or a third of what I thought I did, so it changes my perspective of what plans fit me or are worth downsizing to.
This statements made me happy when I read it. Thank you!
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I skimmed over the spreadsheet, and I think it might be worth your while to add Consumer Cellular and H2O Wireless to the listings for your own personal edification... possibly even Red Pocket and Cricket as well.
Thanks IP! I really value your opinion. I'd love to have a complete chart for data users, but it takes a fair amount of time for me to assemble. I skipped over the honorable mentions of your MVNOs pretty much entirely, but I appreciate the targeted recommendation. I'll put them through the gauntlet and see what happens.
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Is it cheaper? Definitely. But since smartphones and plans are getting so cheap now it's almost down to the "cheap" level to ditch one at this point. Comparable to using the toilet paper on both sides.. This is IMO of course
Use moto G is $150, probably less soon. And price of last years models drop like rock. $30/month for 500MB, or less if you can manage minimal data.
Firstly I use my phone for work to deal with situations when I'm traveling or not in the office, which avoid a lot of stress. Maps is in valuable at this point. GPS units are junk and don't update. I can use google map to find that cheaper eatery, that dude on craiglist I'm looking for, the metro station etc. Just avoiding extra driving and "emergency eating" at the wrong place save money (yes I know I should be 100% prepared at all times.. Too bad). Looking up reviews in stores or finding better deals is another use. I work hard and the phone can save me time and frustration during my brief spare time and vacations, and that's worth it.
No, I don't think I come out ahead in dollar terms on the smartphone, but the benefits are worth the relatively low cost at this point. As long as you're not on some moronic $120/month latest-and-greatest phone plan nonsense.
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Thanks IP! I really value your opinion. I'd love to have a complete chart for data users, but it takes a fair amount of time for me to assemble. I skipped over the honorable mentions of your MVNOs pretty much entirely, but I appreciate the targeted recommendation. I'll put them through the gauntlet and see what happens.
Not a problem, always glad to be of service. Regarding why I namechecked Consumer Cellular, Cricket and H2O specifically for your situation, it's because CC has a similar shared usage bucket structure to Ting... only for GSM users. Cricket and H2O have multi-line discounts on their "unlimited" packages.
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From the perspective of someone who only recently joined the dark side of smartphone with data plan ownership...
I don't think I will miss the data plan if I have to go back to no data plan.
However, I will miss the smartphone, because it doubles as my shopping list and alarm clock. For the longest time I was using an original iPhone with no data plan, and it had those capabilities. I've recently upgraded to a more recent Android, and I *still* primarily (other than as a phone) use it as a shopping list and alarm clock. Today, with data plan, the additional role is that of emergency GPS. I say emergency, because for directions, I still prefer how the stand-alone Garmin does it, so the phone also serves as GPS when I don't have the Garmin with me, or my old Garmin doesn't know of the thing I'm looking for.
So whether you'll miss your phone or not really depends on what else you use it for.
As for plans, for 4 phones (3 of which want data) I found that T-Mobile is one of the most competitive out there.
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For me I think the data is worth it. We have the page plus $30 plan. It works well for us as we travel through Iowa several times a year (making verizon nice). In addition its nice to have the 3g when I want it. I dont ever run out of anything so its a little overkill but when i look at my usage no other plan would be as cheap since my min would go over. I just picked up a couple of moto Gs for us at taget for $60 and flashed them over to page plus with out much effort.
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Also those without smartphones, do you think you will buy some sort of MP3 playinig device, Camera, Alarm Clock, GPS or any number of standalone devices that a smartphone can take the place of?
I don't listen to music that often, and when I do it's Pandora at home, NPR in the car. My flip phone has a camera - it's not great, but we have a Canon digital camera that we would own whether or not we ever decided to have a smart phone. I've owned the same alarm clock since before smart phones existed, but at this point in my life, my alarm clock happens to be three young children. I don't need GPS in my life very often, and when I do, we refer to the internet before we leave.
I personally don't have a smartphone because of the cost but more than that, I do not want to be plugged in when I am out and about. My cell phone has a top up fee of $10 a month. Who even knows how many minutes I have built up over the years, considering I use about 10-20 minutes a month tops. It's an emergency phone that is never on.
For the record, I'm 37 years old and just don't feel the need for a smartphone. But I recognize that other people do and can have one for pretty cheap. I have my personal reasons for not wanting one but don't begrudge those who do.
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I don't think I will miss the data plan if I have to go back to no data plan.
However, I will miss the smartphone...
For the record, there's no universal law that you must purchase a data plan if you use a smartphone. I bought a used Nexus 4, popped a T-Mobile Pay As You Go SIM card in there, and I now have a smartphone with no data plan. When I'm in range of a WiFi hot spot, I can do all of the web browsing, tweeting, Facebooking, email checking, etc. that I want. When I'm not, I can still send and receive phone calls and text messages, and I can also use any Android apps that don't depend on a data connection. I'm sure other providers besides T-Mobile offer a similar arrangement. Check I.P. Daley's wonderful super guide for more info.
This is the path I would generally recommend for the OP. You paid too much for iPhones in the first place, but that's in the past. Might as well use those phones until they break, and put a basic talk/text plan on them to save money on connection fees.
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Thanks to everyone for the replies. I appreciate the variety of perspectives. Wife and I have been tied to smartphones for work purposes for years. They have become the default source of entertainment because we are used to them being within arm's reach. Perhaps it makes the most sense to just use the phones we have and turn off cellular data.
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In my life I remember the corded phones that you actually dialed meaning they had a dial and you had to spin the dial. Then came the push button phone's still on a cord. Cordless phones came next. And soon we had bag phones that you could use in your car. My first cell phone was a flip phone provided by my employer that Stored 10 numbers and not a name attached just the number. You had to know who each was for.
Move up a couple years and I had an Iphone that I liked but hated having to have a data plan at a cost of $30.00/month when I had perfectly good wifi in my home.
I then heard about Net 10 and quickly made the switch saving some money. Shortly after that I heard about Republic through MMM. Yes I know many do not like Republic Wireless but for me it has been great. My monthly phone bill is $34.00/month. For 2 phones that qualify as smart phones. My phone does not have the Data plan as I am around wifi a majority of the time and when I am not I can do without it. My wife can not and she has the data plan with the old defy phone that is still working for her.
For me I never wanted a roaming data plan. The desire to have an Iphone and my wife buying it for me as a gift is the only reason I ended up with it. I would have went without the Iphone until I could have it without a data plan. I realize now that is possible.
Some will say I only push Republic because I want a cut. Not the case if I didn't get a referral reward I would still recommend them and I have. I just figure since they are offering the reward might as well take it, it's like free money.
Again to give you the basic answer you will do just fine without Data. It is not a necessity it really is only a couple years old anyway. I remember when it didn't exist and I am not that old.
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Shit, did someone stub IPD's toe?
There is no lost opportunity cost, I'm more personally independent, situationally aware, and don't require the crutch of technology to help me live life.
Where technology is defined as all the gadgets you don't use, right? You are absolutely dependent on all sorts of technology, unless you don't count tractors and electrical wiring and compasses and the written word. Did your local parish really decide 2007 was the cutoff?
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Shit, did someone stub IPD's toe?
There is no lost opportunity cost, I'm more personally independent, situationally aware, and don't require the crutch of technology to help me live life.
Where technology is defined as all the gadgets you don't use, right? You are absolutely dependent on all sorts of technology, unless you don't count tractors and electrical wiring and compasses and the written word. Did your local parish really decide 2007 was the cutoff?
HA HA! It's funny because it's pulled out of context!
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<Originally wrote a post with my reasoning about the cellphones-are-just-more-technology debate. Deciding to peace out. >
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I +1 the notion that (at least in the US) a smartphone is really the only sensible alternative in today's day in age for someone who needs a mobile phone. Nothing wrong with going without a data plan and using purely Wifi-only, but opting instead for a true dumbphone doesn't make sense to me. When I look at prices for used unlocked or prepaid Android based phones, a decent little machine can be had for under $40, and I mean really under, as in sometimes as low as $10-$20 for a perfectly serviceable model running Android 2.3 or 4.0 OS. Slap on a ultra-protective case to ensure it never breaks from physical damage and you're looking at $40-$50 total. Hardware cost isn't really a justifiable answer anymore for opting for a dumbphone, as the price floor for dumbphones really doesn't get lower than $10. There aren't many people in this country who can tell me with a straight face that the price difference between $50 and $10 for something they plan to use for 4-5+ years is truly going to make a difference between eating human food and eating cat food or a similar meaningful choice, and if they can I'd point them to LifeLine. And plan prices are usually independent of what phone you use -- many providers sell you the SIM card you stick in your phone and care little if that goes into a 128GB iPhone 6 Plus or some budget no-name 2.3 Froyo Android or a dumb candybar phone. People who hold out their dumbphone as proof they aren't a social cog strike me as people who want to be unique for little more than uniqueness sake.
A dumbphone allows you to talk, text, and maybe check email & surf the web in a very uneasy, time consuming manner (if your dumbphone even allows you to use Wifi and not just 2G cellular data),
A smartphone allows you to:
- Talk & Text, both via cellular and if you're even remotely tech-aware via Wifi using Google, Skype, RingTo, or other services to have it be completely free
- Email, including advanced things like being able to attach files
- Surf
- Video conference
- GPS
- View and work with word documents, spreadsheets, presentations, PDFs, etc.
- Price compare / QR code search
- Take & send photos, or create quick PDFs (for receipts, etc.)
- Listen to music
- Foreign Language Translator
- Check & manage your calendar
- Set an alarm, stopwatch, and timer
- Mobile banking / Remote Deposit of checks
- Replace store loyalty program cards / key fobs
- Flashlight
- Compass
- Shopping list
- Entertainment (youtube, movies, games, etc.)
- A lot more stuff I haven't even mentioned (Bluetooth TV/HTPC remote, health tracker, calculator, etc.)
The best aspect is that a smartphone can do all of the above for FREE and in a generally user friendly manner. Granted it needs an internet connection eventually for most of this stuff, but you can do a lot of stuff when you aren't near Wifi and cue it up to act when Wifi is available (i.e. download your emails in Wifi, respond to them when out of Wifi, have them actually send when you get back into Wifi). Many of the above listed features either safe time, money, both, or provide some sort of convenience when used correctly and in moderation.
I'm not saying it's not worthwhile to learn how to operate in the world without a smartphone. It's also worthwhile to learn how to start a fire from scratch, but it's also sensible when you need to light a candle for your normal course of practice to simply use a match rather than spend 10 minutes striking flints together. And I'm not saying people don't abuse smartphones -- they do. But nobody is forcing you to be available 24/7 to respond to emails, answer calls, reply to texts, etc. And if they are (as in an employer), the "I didn't reply to your urgent email because I don't get email on my frugal flip phone (big smile, pats self on back)" excuse really isn't going to yield any better of a response than any other response someone with a smartphone would give. In my mind holding out a dumbphone as something that proves you aren't "beholden to the man" or "tied to the machine" or whatever indicates more than anything else that you're incapable of self-moderation, equivalent to saying you don't take prescription drugs after a major surgery because you know you'd eventually be hooked on pain killers.
None of the above is directed at anyone in particular, just an opinion on why nobody should be "giving up" their smartphones and switching back to a dumbphone or replacing a broken dumbphone with another dumbphone, when a viable option is just to forego a data plan on an existing/new smartphone. All I'm saying is if the US government thinks that smartphones are such a basic necessity to the average citizen/resident/illegal alien that they'll give them away free, no strings attached, anyone on this board should realize there must be at least some justifiable value in them over dumbphones...
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I went for like 5 months with no phone of any kind. Not a cell, not a land. No cable, no internet except at the library. Nope didn't miss having all the worlds information at my fingers and never got lost driving.
Of course, I'm 54 and went an entire 52 years without a smartphone and 40 years without a cell phone. It is really not a big deal at all.
Check ting or republic.
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yadda yadda yadda
Do you work in the marketing department of a comms company?
My dumbphone costs $2.50 a month. I don't need it to solve global poverty and bring about world peace. I just need it to text and make calls
I'm not saying it's not worthwhile to learn how to operate in the world without a smartphone. It's also worthwhile to learn how to start a fire from scratch, but it's also sensible when you need to light a candle for your normal course of practice to simply use a match rather than spend 10 minutes striking flints together. And I'm not saying people don't abuse smartphones -- they do. But nobody is forcing you to be available 24/7 to respond to emails, answer calls, reply to texts, etc. And if they are (as in an employer), the "I didn't reply to your urgent email because I don't get email on my frugal flip phone (big smile, pats self on back)" excuse really isn't going to yield any better of a response than any other response someone with a smartphone would give. In my mind holding out a dumbphone as something that proves you aren't "beholden to the man" or "tied to the machine" or whatever indicates more than anything else that you're incapable of self-moderation, equivalent to saying you don't take prescription drugs after a major surgery because you know you'd eventually be hooked on pain killers.
None of the above is directed at anyone in particular, just an opinion on why nobody should be "giving up" their smartphones and switching back to a dumbphone or replacing a broken dumbphone with another dumbphone, when a viable option is just to forego a data plan on an existing/new smartphone. All I'm saying is if the US government thinks that smartphones are such a basic necessity to the average citizen/resident/illegal alien that they'll give them away free, no strings attached, anyone on this board should realize there must be at least some justifiable value in them over dumbphones...
Well yes I do detect just a smidgen of smugness in that post. How condescending is that! If I want to be a luddite disconnected from the modern world you have no right to tell me that I'm the one with the problem, who is somehow defective...
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I have a free smartphone as part of my employment (to be reachable in case of an emergency and of course to check emails outside of work, both of which I can generally avoid). :-)
Let me say, having an internet-connected unlimited data smartphone, where I can look up the answer to any random question I might have at any time, or where I can getting bicycle/mass transit directions from where I currently am to wherever I want to go, is very convenient. But is it necessary? No. I could just wait a few more minutes and delay gratification until I get home to look up that burning question. I could print out maps ahead of time, and plan routes on my PC.
As far as regular phone usage, I really don't talk with anyone I don't currently have on Skype, and I send less than 10 texts a week, which could easily be replaced with instant messages.
So I could go without a phone completely. Will be something I'll have to consider once I reach FI or if I move to a different company.
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You can still have a smartphone and be mustachian. I have the ZTE Awe from Virgin Mobile which I paid $30 for and I am on their $25/month plan (it is a grandfathered plan). I have looked at Republic Wireless and may consider it but for now am happy with Virgin Mobile.
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I have a dumb phone, and no plans to upgrade. Here's why:
1. Ethical concerns over the rare earth minerals (mining in the Congo, warlords, child labour, etc)
2. I think smartphones are really big and ugly.
3. They're also a lot more breakable...
4....and a target for thieves, particularly when travelling.
5. Right now, people don't have the expectation that I drop everything and respond to them right this second, especially if I'm out doing something. Don't really want to change that.
6. Smartphones and their associated phone plans are much more expensive in Canada.
7. I only need to be able to talk and receive texts, I have no desire for anything else
8. My boyfriend already has a really old iPod that uses wifi, yet is crappy enough not to attract thieves.
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I'm selling my iPhone next month and going to $27 a month for unlimted everything on a dumbphone for several reasons. One is the cost
Also please stop and notice next time how often people are glued to their smart phones in social settings. I work for universal studios and often go up to the park for lunch. To see entire families reading their phones when they just spent 100s of dollars to spend the day is upsetting. I notice it a lot now
I'm guilty too. I often look at my phone just out of habit. It's human nature I think and social media feeds on this. I think if people actually added up the time they spent looking at their phones they might be shocked.
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My spouse and I each have an unlocked iphone that we bought outright. One of the phones has a straight talk SIM in it which costs $45 a month for unlimited talk and text, plus "unlimited" data, which I think in reality is more like 2.5GB. The other phone has an old SIM from overseas that needs $20 a year added to it to stay active. While we're in the US, we're technically roaming on it. This means it's always available for emergency use, which thankfully has never been needed (the cellular data on the phone option is set to off).
We don't have a home phone. This has been a good option for us. I still have my iphone 4 with IOS 6 on it, and it's still working great after 4 years. Not updating to IOS 7 was the key here.
*We could get a cheaper no contract/month to month plan with another provider but because the phones were bought overseas, they wouldn't get 3G if we did that.
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In my mind holding out a dumbphone as something that proves you aren't "beholden to the man" or "tied to the machine" or whatever indicates more than anything else that you're incapable of self-moderation, equivalent to saying you don't take prescription drugs after a major surgery because you know you'd eventually be hooked on pain killers.
Good lord, AH013! Tell us what you really think!
I do wonder why you care so much that other people get a smartphone. Not all of life is about dollars and cents. I am fully cognizant that a smartphone can be had for relatively cheap. That doesn't change the fact that I don't want one.
I wonder how many people on this forum would argue so vociferously as you did that someone should have cable if the price point were as low as Netflix. The reality is that lots of people wouldn't want cable even if it were free - MMM among them. The reason is because it more than just the cost that turns people off. They find advertising insidious and the medium dulling. I don't happen to agree with them, but you get my drift.
I usually refrain from discussing the reasons why I don't want one, but since you went off like you do, I'll be honest. I am sick and tired of seeing people buried in their devices and oblivious to the world around them. Yes, you could say perhaps that I would or could be different, but wouldn't that be hubris? I am, after all, not that much more self-controlled than the average person.
This column by Donna Freeman expresses many of my reservations - http://donnafreedman.com/2013/10/05/living-in-the-quieter-spots-of-life/
I especially like this line: "This “can’t be disconnected” tendency is rubbing out the boundary between real and virtual life. Facebook, Twitter, blogs, smartphone videos – we don’t live our lives so much as perform them. Rather than make memories, we archive our daily existences for an imagined audience." You can perhaps argue that this problem Donna describes is a function of social media rather than technology, but I would argue that the latter makes the former possible.
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Some people can set their own boundaries with phones and some can't. Neither is better than the other.
Is it possible for one of you to have a dumb phone and one to have a smart phone? Kinds a best of both worlds with option to downgrade later?
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Neither is better than the other.
It depends on how you define "better". I think one approach is probably healthier than the other. I don't really have a dog in this fight, since I never use my cell phone in public and therefore have no idea where I would fall on the spectrum anyway. But I think it's rather silly to argue an equivalency when self-control is clearly preferable over a lack of it. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your point.
Back to the OP, I think many people have shown you on here how you can have a smartphone for very little money. If you miss it and had gotten rid of it solely for financial reasons, it makes sense to reinstate a cheaper alternative.
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In my mind holding out a dumbphone as something that proves you aren't "beholden to the man" or "tied to the machine" or whatever indicates more than anything else that you're incapable of self-moderation, equivalent to saying you don't take prescription drugs after a major surgery because you know you'd eventually be hooked on pain killers.
Good lord, AH013! Tell us what you really think!
I do wonder why you care so much that other people get a smartphone. Not all of life is about dollars and cents. I am fully cognizant that a smartphone can be had for relatively cheap. That doesn't change the fact that I don't want one.
I wonder how many people on this forum would argue so vociferously as you did that someone should have cable if the price point were as low as Netflix. The reality is that lots of people wouldn't want cable even if it were free - MMM among them. The reason is because it more than just the cost that turns people off. They find advertising insidious and the medium dulling. I don't happen to agree with them, but you get my drift.
I usually refrain from discussing the reasons why I don't want one, but since you went off like you do, I'll be honest. I am sick and tired of seeing people buried in their devices and oblivious to the world around them. Yes, you could say perhaps that I would or could be different, but wouldn't that be hubris? I am, after all, not that much more self-controlled than the average person.
This column by Donna Freeman expresses many of my reservations - http://donnafreedman.com/2013/10/05/living-in-the-quieter-spots-of-life/
I especially like this line: "This “can’t be disconnected” tendency is rubbing out the boundary between real and virtual life. Facebook, Twitter, blogs, smartphone videos – we don’t live our lives so much as perform them. Rather than make memories, we archive our daily existences for an imagined audience." You can perhaps argue that this problem Donna describes is a function of social media rather than technology, but I would argue that the latter makes the former possible.
Wow, really good post.
I love technology as much as the next person, but you have to wonder what this constant connection is doing to us. It's like a drug, and can keep us from enjoying what else life has to offer.
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(A wall of awesome.)
Amen and amen.
As there's been such a vitriolic argument built on a foundation of first world conveniences for smartphones instead of the humble feature phone... let's defend the little things for the sake of intellectual honestly.
Reasons that don't qualify as neo-luddite hipster arguments for choosing a feature phone:
- Less fragile.
- Significantly longer battery life, which translates into less total electricity usage.
- Fewer resources utilized in its manufacture.
- Less waste in its disposal.
- Less likely to be stolen.
- Less likely to be used as a toy or distraction.
- Cheaper to repair/replace.
- Longer effective service life than a smartphone due to durability, lower complexity and fewer forced obsolescence features.
- Greater privacy from advertisers as there's no apps or operating systems datamining you.
There is such a thing as the right tool for the job, but I've yet to see a single person give a defensible justification for using or keeping a smartphone under general principle for most people beyond work tool. It's all trivial conveniences laid upon the altars of greed, technolust, sloth and boredom. Feature phones are still plenty capable for most people who actually need mobile communications in the first place, but most people don't care about functionality so much as the nebulous "potential" and the self-important image that comes with owning one. I've said it for years, and I still stand by it: Sometimes, more technology isn't always better... and just because you can doesn't mean you should.
What irks me the most about this thread is the intended purpose of the OP being hijacked by people who can't actually answer the question posed, and instead opt to bludgeon anyone who doesn't see the value of their own excessive consumption and mobile technology usage as idiotic neo-luddites. It's just self control, so you should keep it around because it might be useful! What is so wrong about the idea of people deliberately scaling back and consuming less!? Is this not the entire purpose of this community as a whole? They're just tiny slabs of technology, and there are people turning somersaults to justify making a lifestyle choice out of owning and spending huge gobs of money on them because... because... MOAR IZ ALWASE BETTAR!
Tools should not define your life, YOU SHOULD.
If your existence is so thoroughly defined by the very presence of a tiny little multi-purpose computer that you write passionately defending their place in your life and society's, and why anyone who doesn't spend the money or the time to have one is a short-sighted idiot without any self-discipline... maybe, just maybe, the people you're bagging on aren't the ones with the real problem - even despite the awesome amount of self control you brag about having with your special snowflake of a smartphone.
Behold the true power of these small glowing rectangles over society, folks.
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I love technology as much as the next person, but you have to wonder what this constant connection is doing to us. It's like a drug, and can keep us from enjoying what else life has to offer.
It's only like a drug because it's not injecting the serotonin and dopamine into our veins directly... instead, it just stimulates the body to bathe our brains in it through experiences and feedback that increases production. It's real, and it's scientifically documented. There's a very real addiction going on here with a lot of people, and much like the alcoholic in SisterX's example in another thread (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/one-more-perspective-on-poverty/msg394786/#msg394786), you can practically see the same addict's logic being applied.
All we can do is what we are doing, and hopefully some of these folks will eventually get it.
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I think a smartphone is like a clown car. Sure, like a car, it does all kinds of stuff that your bicycle/dumb phone doesn't do. "But I can keep warm in the cold! I can drive six kids around! I can play surroundsound music! I can put a ton of stuff in the trunk!"
But going for a dumbphone or a bike is not about suffering from the loss of all your fancy luxuries. It's about saying goodbye to extravagant purchases because there are more important things than paying big bucks for a chunk of unnecessary metal.
I have a dumbphone that cost $9.99 and that costs around $10 a month. I don't even know whether it gets on the internet because I never tried. It lets you talk on the phone and it sends texts. My son has exactly the same. Yeah, a lot of his friends have their parents old iPhones with some expensive plan. Even if we say those parents are pseudo-mustachians who've trimmed their smartphone costs to $50 per month, over five years they're paying 6000 freaking dollars for those two phones. We're paying $1200. Sure, some people think that extra $4800 is no big deal. Those people are not called "mustachians."
As for alarm clocks, are you kidding me? You need to pay $100+ a month so your phone can be an alarm clock? You know they sell those for $8.99 at Target? And get this, with the Target ones, you don't even have to remember to recharge them! Isn't that amazing?
As for GPS, my goodness, the complainypants level here is high. Can you believe it, I actually use paper maps. Paper maps are the bicycles of mustachianism. They also don't require an investment of $100+ per month.
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I think a smartphone is like a clown car. Sure, like a car, it does all kinds of stuff that your bicycle/dumb phone doesn't do. "But I can keep warm in the cold! I can drive six kids around! I can play surroundsound music! I can put a ton of stuff in the trunk!"
But going for a dumbphone or a bike is not about suffering from the loss of all your fancy luxuries. It's about saying goodbye to extravagant purchases because there are more important things than paying big bucks for a chunk of unnecessary metal.
I have a dumbphone that cost $9.99 and that costs around $10 a month. I don't even know whether it gets on the internet because I never tried. It lets you talk on the phone and it sends texts. My son has exactly the same. Yeah, a lot of his friends have their parents old iPhones with some expensive plan. Even if we say those parents are pseudo-mustachians who've trimmed their smartphone costs to $50 per month, over five years they're paying 6000 freaking dollars for those two phones. We're paying $1200. Sure, some people think that extra $4800 is no big deal. Those people are not called "mustachians."
As for alarm clocks, are you kidding me? You need to pay $100+ a month so your phone can be an alarm clock? You know they sell those for $8.99 at Target? And get this, with the Target ones, you don't even have to remember to recharge them! Isn't that amazing?
As for GPS, my goodness, the complainypants level here is high. Can you believe it, I actually use paper maps. Paper maps are the bicycles of mustachianism. They also don't require an investment of $100+ per month.
Nobody here is arguing for a $100/mo plans - smart phones can be had for $10/mo plans possibly less. Its great that you get satisfaction from the simplicity of a dumbbphone and paper maps but others have different wants. The financial difference between your phone system and mine is I paid $100 more for the device initially. So with your math I pay $1300 over five years vs your $1200. In addition to that, I refer enough people on my service that I effectively pay nothing, pushing my costs below yours.
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I think this is a very interesting issue. Personally, I've never owned a smartphone - I'm still using my circa 2010 dumb phone, and if I had my way, that would be more than sufficient. Calling, texting, alarms, calendars, and calculators all in one small, durable device? That's plenty for me. I already have an old chunky GPS that I can use in emergencies - not that I drive much anyway - and I invested in a 160GB iPod Classic (RIP) a few years back to accommodate my sizable music collection for the long haul, since music is a priority for me. I fear that adding a smartphone into my life would simply serve to further addict me to the almighty internet. Lord knows I spend way too much time in front of screens already while I'm at home. At the very least, I like being able to be focused on the world around me while I'm physically out in it. I find it pretty repulsive to be completely surrounded by people with their noses buried in their phones, rather than experiencing everything around them. I'm worried I would turn into that.
On the other hand...
As a 20-something who's trying to make social and professional connections in a world whose desires and expectations are largely beyond my control, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to function without a smartphone. Not because of my wants, but because of everyone else's. The more smartphones saturate the market - and the longer they saturate it for - the more smartphones become a de facto expectation. This was not a problem four years ago, or at least not much of one. I don't know how much longer I can hold out.
So as far as the topic at hand goes, I'm not sure what to recommend. Living without a smartphone is easy. Living without a smartphone in a culture where people act on the assumption that you do have one...that's getting tougher and tougher every day, unfortunately.
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Not sure if this would work for your needs, but I just kept my phone and switched to a 10 cents a minute Go Phone plan with AT&T when my contract ended (10cents per minute talk, 20 cents per text), pay as you go, minimum refill $25 every 90 days to keep balance rolling over. I find wifi fine for my data needs (though I live somewhere where its very easy to find wifi close by regardless where I am). Numerous friends and family have dropped data so we tend to DM, Skype, etc - as a result nowadays I actually only use about $2 month of my Go Phone plan because I don't need cell much. Some folks I know were able to get onto this plan too but others were told its not available for smartphones so availability of plan may be dependent on who you talk to at AT&T.
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I love technology as much as the next person, but you have to wonder what this constant connection is doing to us. It's like a drug, and can keep us from enjoying what else life has to offer.
It's only like a drug because it's not injecting the serotonin and dopamine into our veins directly... instead, it just stimulates the body to bathe our brains in it through experiences and feedback that increases production. It's real, and it's scientifically documented. There's a very real addiction going on here with a lot of people, and much like the alcoholic in SisterX's example in another thread (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/one-more-perspective-on-poverty/msg394786/#msg394786), you can practically see the same addict's logic being applied.
All we can do is what we are doing, and hopefully some of these folks will eventually get it.
Gosh P, that sounds an awful lot like your 2+ posts per day on this forum. ;)
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I used a pay as you go until 2011, then got an expensive smartphone/plan and still use the phone, on Ting. I went from talk/text only, to full unlimited, to the menu options Ting has.
I haven't noticed much change since I went to Ting. I make sure to download podcasts or videos only at home, limit picture messaging, and not browse much unless on Wifi. I used to listen to music through Pandora at the gym, or in the car, but after a few months of not doing it I stopped missing it.
As far as the whole keep phone vs use a talk/text only, I hung on to the smart phone because it was already paid for, because I like taking pictures to remember things by, and in order to blend in socially.
I have some friends who really like to show off tech, and they would hate it. They are always loading a funny youtube video or song to share, or taking a bunch of photos and putting them online right away, or offering to plug their internet radio thing in to the car instead of us listening to the radio while we drive. That's not a lot of folks, though. I think for most people it wouldn't be that big of a deal, especially with free Wifi at every coffee shop, half the bars/restraunts around town... if you really want to download or send something just stand outside Starbucks for a few minutes and get it taken care of.
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So as far as the topic at hand goes, I'm not sure what to recommend. Living without a smartphone is easy. Living without a smartphone in a culture where people act on the assumption that you do have one...that's getting tougher and tougher every day, unfortunately.
Their problem, not yours. End of the day, you only have to answer to yourself and G-d. Remember where you are and the fact that you're already bucking the norm. Do what's right for you, not what a bunch of consumer whores want you to do.
Go Phone plan with AT&T
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Some folks I know were able to get onto this plan too but others were told its not available for smartphones so availability of plan may be dependent on who you talk to at AT&T.
There's cheaper per minute and month on the AT&T network than GoPhone with other MVNOs who don't care what sort of phone you stick the SIM card into, so long as it's carrier unlocked... just for the record.
As for yourself, if you're only using $2/month of service at AT&T's PAYG prices, have you considered just going cold turkey? Sounds like you don't actually need it at all.
Gosh P, that sounds an awful lot like your 2+ posts per day on this forum. ;)
I did say up front in this thread I'd sound like a broken record.
NEEDS, NOT WANTS! WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOUR BUDGET IS ALSO GOOD FOR YOUR COMMUNICATIONS BILLS! DARN KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN! ...etc.
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Suddenly I really want to go over and park myself on IPD's lawn and play Angry Birds (or Minecraft PE, more likely) on my smartphone. :)
Edit: "Hey mister... what's your wifi password? I wanna watch some youtube videos!"
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I technically still have a data plan (Airvoice Wireless $10/month plan). While I did give in to the hedonistic adaptation treadmill of a smartphone (and even a later replacement/upgrade) like three years ago, I hardly use it. I have something like a $65 balance after something like 8 months of being on the plan. Stepping down from T-Mobile's already pretty affordable $30/month 5GB plan to Airvoice Wireless (the $10/month plan works out to something in the neighborhood of 200MB/month) has been awesome for me in terms of not fussing over my phone.
Whether the OP should actually ditch the smartphone depends on how attached to the hip they are to them, so to speak. That is, whether they need the clean break of a dumb phone. I myself am not always this badass about it, but a small anecdote about how much I use my phone. My parents and I were visiting my grandmother to celebrate my father's birthday, and some easily google-able question came up. My father got up and went to use my grandmother's computer to find the answer. My grandmother asked me if I forgot my phone, since I didn't whip it out and look up the answer right then and there. I said "yes, I have my phone, but I'm eating right now".
As others have suggested, a low/no data plan can also work. I bother with the smartphone for the occasional maps/camera usage. Not strictly necessary, but awfully nice given my poor sense of direction.
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I've had a smartphone for less than two years, but I would really miss the GPS. We use it heavily on trips (several times a year) but I also am frequently going new places in my town and the nearby city. We have only lived here 2 years. Maybe if I had grown up here I wouldn't need that.
Maybe it is stupid to have a smartphone primarily for gps. I certainly use it for email and web browsing, but I could live without.
We are currently on Verizon, with our contract ending in November. Er live in a rural area and have awful service from everyone except Verizon. What I want is talk, text, and a tiny bit of data from Verizon. I know republic might fit the bill, but we have awful home internet, not enough to always support phone calls, and no patience to deal with lack of tech support.
Anyway, long story short, we might do the sprint 100$ a month plan with my brother and mom. But hen we are locked in a 2 year contract, so if sprint is truly awful we are stuck. And H does need a new phone as his battery is completely dead and our current models have integrated batteries (HTC DNA). Ugh.
Even though I know we need to figure this out and switch, the choices are overwhelming. I don't fully (ok, at all) understand half of what is said about SIM cards and such. Can I take my Verizon phone to a sprint MVNO, buy a new SIM card, and have it work? Is sprint or ATT better for rural service? My understanding is the Verizon MVNO's suck and don't save much. I don't even know what MVNO stands for. After thinking through that all, I am ready to just quit.
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[....] Lord knows I spend way too much time in front of screens already while I'm at home. At the very least, I like being able to be focused on the world around me while I'm physically out in it. [...]
On the other hand...
As a 20-something who's trying to make social and professional connections in a world whose desires and expectations are largely beyond my control, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to function without a smartphone. Not because of my wants, but because of everyone else's. [...]
So as far as the topic at hand goes, I'm not sure what to recommend. Living without a smartphone is easy. Living without a smartphone in a culture where people act on the assumption that you do have one...that's getting tougher and tougher every day, unfortunately.
Very true. In my case, I already ignore my kids enough at home, I would hate to set up a mechanism with which I could ignore them when we are at the park as well :). The internet in all its iterations (laptops, phones, etc) is VERY addictive. I think the odds are entirely not in my favor that I would keep that phone in my purse while out and about. I don't think I would go so far as to rudely whip it out at lunch with a friend, but kids are admittedly tedious sometimes.
You and I have very similar opinions on this issue, and the past month or so has brought your second point about the surrounding culture home to me. In my case, I don't even text or have my cell phone on ever, which means that when I meet a new friend, I still give them my home phone number. When I mention this (which I feel like I have to since they will try to text the number), they look at me like I have two heads. The reality is that I do not want to feel like a social pariah. It is getting to the point where I am embarrassed to whip out my ca. 2010 flip phone. I was at a children's museum with my son, and I wanted to take a picture on my phone of him cutely playing at an exhibit. But frankly, I was too embarrassed with all the moms with their expensive smartphones around. Yeah, yeah. I know I should own it, but it's hard.
I think my compromise for the time being will be to step up my use of my actual cell phone so that I can stop handing out my home phone. I actually like texting, but I do not reliably have my cell phone on, and when I do I often don't hear it. For those of you with $10 dumb phone plans, presumably these are Virgin Mobile paylo plans? If so, do you ever go over the $10 when you text? The fact that I am overpaying for a landline (I could explain those reasons another day) means that I don't want to pay more than $10 a month for the cell phone.
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I am going to start a thread under general discussion to discuss why those of us who still cling to our dumb phones choose to do so. I think I'll call it "Dumb phone users unite!" Feel welcome to join me over there! That way this OP's actual question can continue to be discussed without our semi-peripheral rants.
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Very true. In my case, I already ignore my kids enough at home, I would hate to set up a mechanism with which I could ignore them when we are at the park as well :).
This is insane.
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This is insane.
I'm hoping you mean insanely awesome. Otherwise, I'm guessing my hyperbolic joking was lost in the internet ether. Or, conversely, are you of the ilk that thinks that mothers and fathers should attend to the needs, however large or small, of their children for every second of every day? In that case, I can understand why MMM's post yesterday about why it's okay to have only one child (or conversely none) really becomes appealing for lots of people.
Would it make you more comfortable if I said I "ignored" them ((i.e. didn't cater to their every whim) ) while reading Dostoyevsky or Proust instead of while reading and commenting on MMM forums?
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I don't care much one way or the other about parenting. Nothing wrong with laissez-faire.
I'm just confused why the presence of a device in your pocket would change your parenting philosophy at all.
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I'm just confused why the presence of a device in your pocket would change your parenting philosophy at all.
Your presumption there is that we can choose a "philosophy" (although I'm not sure I would define my perspective in such formalized terms) and that technology would not intrude upon it. Here I fall back upon our admitted broken record, I.P. Daley. Study upon study have showed that certain types of technology are addictive. I went down the Candy Crush rabbit hole for a short time and experienced that first hand. I see what playing Terraria (an online game like Minecraft) on a tablet does to my son's thoughts. He has a limited time that he is allowed to play on it, but he spends the rest of the day talking and thinking about it.
Unlike others on this thread, I don't take offense at the idea that I somehow lack self-control and that's why I reject the technology, even as the price has gone down. The reality is that I do, and if you watch people in public these days, it's obvious that many people are like me. When they hear whatever sound their device makes to indicate whatever has happened on their phone, they cannot resist the urge to pick it up. Whether it's a Facebook notification or something on their Twitter feed, the urge to know is very strong indeed. In the past two hours, I have sat down from my housework multiple times to check on my computer if people have responded to my posts on this thread and the other. The urge to stay connected is extremely powerful.
If I were an automaton without weakness, yes, I could own a smartphone and never pull it out when I am at the park with my kids. I guess in that sense you are right. But right doesn't make realistic.
All of this makes me think of the hedonic treadmill and MMM's extreme catheter example. Well, I could have a catheter in and still get up to pee, right? But would I? And it begs the question, if I want to get up to pee anyway, why have the catheter in the first place? I know I'm straying from your original question about parenting, but in my mind it does relate.
I am glad that many on here have pointed out reasonable alternatives like not having a data plan. This is definitely food for thought for me and goes against the ways in which people I know use their phones.
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No. For my personal life, I have been very hapy moving away from a smartphone. I went to a nice Nokia 301. Technically it has internet etc, but it's slow and I have literally never even set it up, so I couldn't use it right now if I wanted to. I use Airvoice Wireless on the $10 a month plan, which is way more than I need for texting. I have only gone over the limit once (costing me $20 a month for that month only- and getting me more credits) when I was job searching and had multiple long phone interviews.
HOWEVER- I find myself in the position of needing a smartphone again. Not for my personal uses, but I am getting more into Real Estate, investing and working, and that would be helped by a smartphone, most of my coworkers have them, and they are actually very handy. I would of course only use a low cost plan!
I am happy enough without a smartphone in my personal life that I would legitimately consider getting a separate smartphone for work only. However, that would be inconvenient, so I will probably just move over to a typical smartphone and keep my Nokia 301 for vacations etc, where I would not be working, and when the long battery life would be nice. (switching the SIM over for that time)
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As for alarm clocks, are you kidding me? You need to pay $100+ a month so your phone can be an alarm clock? You know they sell those for $8.99 at Target? And get this, with the Target ones, you don't even have to remember to recharge them! Isn't that amazing?
As for GPS, my goodness, the complainypants level here is high. Can you believe it, I actually use paper maps. Paper maps are the bicycles of mustachianism. They also don't require an investment of $100+ per month.
As the person who brought up these uses, I can't help but feel that some of your disdain is directed at me.
Let me correct you. I don't believe in needing a smartphone.
As I mentioned, up until earlier this year, I was using the original iPhone (hand-me down, not one I purchased) without a data plan. I used it as an alarm clock because it's there, and it's primarily used when I'm at work, to remind me of various meetings to go to.
As for GPS, sure, I admit the convenience factor. And again, up until I got data recently, I planned my trips by looking up where I was going, and printing out directions as needed. If god forbid I ever got lost without my GPS device, I actually do have the thick, paper book of maps in the back of my car. But now that I have data (because family plans change due to wants of the rest of the family), I can and am willing to accept then convenience when I need it.
But one thing I still refuse to do is connect it to email and social media. Because I don't need nor want to always be connected, or have too much of my personal information 'on the cloud' (where it can get hacked) or on a small portable device that can be stolen or lost relatively easily, along with access to those data.
So no, I didn't spend $100/mo to have a phone that doubles as an alarm clock and GPS. I brought up those examples as additional uses that the smart phone does for me, with or without accompanying data plan. And you can get off your high horse for not wanting a smart phone like some of us do. Why don't you go back to the typewriter while you're at it too.
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I'm just confused why the presence of a device in your pocket would change your parenting philosophy at all.
Your presumption there is that we can choose a "philosophy" (although I'm not sure I would define my perspective in such formalized terms) and that technology would not intrude upon it. Here I fall back upon our admitted broken record, I.P. Daley. Study upon study have showed that certain types of technology are addictive. I went down the Candy Crush rabbit hole for a short time and experienced that first hand. I see what playing Terraria (an online game like Minecraft) on a tablet does to my son's thoughts. He has a limited time that he is allowed to play on it, but he spends the rest of the day talking and thinking about it.
Unlike others on this thread, I don't take offense at the idea that I somehow lack self-control and that's why I reject the technology, even as the price has gone down. The reality is that I do, and if you watch people in public these days, it's obvious that many people are like me. When they hear whatever sound their device makes to indicate whatever has happened on their phone, they cannot resist the urge to pick it up. Whether it's a Facebook notification or something on their Twitter feed, the urge to know is very strong indeed. In the past two hours, I have sat down from my housework multiple times to check on my computer if people have responded to my posts on this thread and the other. The urge to stay connected is extremely powerful.
If I were an automaton without weakness, yes, I could own a smartphone and never pull it out when I am at the park with my kids. I guess in that sense you are right. But right doesn't make realistic.
All of this makes me think of the hedonic treadmill and MMM's extreme catheter example. Well, I could have a catheter in and still get up to pee, right? But would I? And it begs the question, if I want to get up to pee anyway, why have the catheter in the first place? I know I'm straying from your original question about parenting, but in my mind it does relate.
I am glad that many on here have pointed out reasonable alternatives like not having a data plan. This is definitely food for thought for me and goes against the ways in which people I know use their phones.
Fair enough. I understand that we can get habitually connected to these things. I guess I differ in that I don't think this is functionally much different with the smart phone, especially for those of us who are almost always near a computer anyways.
I guess--since we've talked so much about addiction and alcoholism--it makes sense to compare the IPD response to teetotalism. The heart is in the right place, but I think it makes too strong a claim and doesn't really understand the benefits. If your only interaction with alcohol was walking in to a bar at ten AM, you would think everyone was an alcoholic and you would see booze as only a negative thing. This is what's happening when everyone you see with a phone has their phone out. You're only seeing the people who brought out their phone. Selection bias. Valuable and addictive are not mutually exclusive.
I think there are a lot of ways to make the phone into more of a tool, i.e., to mitigate the negative parts. For example, turn off notifications for everything but calls and texts. Throughout much of the day, I have my phone set to not vibrate unless someone calls me twice. It never makes any noise, except for my morning alarm. I also go without the phone and without computers on Sundays.
And yes, maybe it's completely insane for me to appreciate being able to look up what work was done on my car three years ago while standing at the mechanic's, but I find it valuable. It's also completely luxurious to always be able to always ID a bird that I see or take a GPS-tagged image. (And, as I've said before, I've only had one of these phones off and on.)
And, a final point. I'm not just being obnoxious when I mention that this has (http://home.btconnect.com/tipiglen/berrynot.html) happened (http://www.units.miamioh.edu/technologyandhumanities/plato.htm) before. That should encourage us to have opinions and arguments about patterns of use rather than classes of technology. We're all using technologies that people we respect (me, at least) found absolutely terrible.
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I am a low data user, but when I use the data (GPS, Google maps, etc) it is incredibly awesome and convenient. Having said that, I totally hate giving away so much private information to a bunch of companies. They know so much about me. It is really scary. Also, these phones essentially track your every move. Big brother is truly here. Between the location tracking of your phone and the police scanners automatically recording car plates with scanners, there is virtually NO privacy left. Riding a bike and using a dumbphone that is mostly turned off would give you so much privacy back.
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This is what's happening when everyone you see with a phone has their phone out. You're only seeing the people who brought out their phone. Selection bias.
Excellent point, thank you! Next time I am in public and dismayed by it all, I'll try to remember that there are likely plenty of people around me who have smartphones tucked away in their bags. And then when I get one (which I'm sure will happen in the next five years), I can strive to be the latter type rather than former.
Also, great idea to have it set to vibrate only if they call you twice.
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We are getting ready to break up with our overpriced ATT cell service. Ptel looks like our top choice for a pay-as-you-go provider. The savings should be substantial as we rarely use our phones for anything other than sending text messages. Ok, right now we use our monthly data plans, but we're 99% sure we spend enough time around wifi to not miss that feature. Especially with a baby due any day now, we don't want to be the parents too busy on iPhones to watch their child grow up.
All of that said, we both currently own iPhones and we are out of our contract. Debating going with a true dumbphone instead of just getting new SIM cards for our current iPhones. For those of you who gave up data plans, how tough was it? Do you regret carrying a phone that cannot access the web?
Thanks!
I've been web-free via phone for…about a year? I think. Anyway, I've only missed it one or two times in all that time. I can get onto wifi in many places to check email.
One time I missed it was last night. I was driving somewhere and having GPS would have been nice to make sure I was doing the right thing…but, you know, my brain works pretty well and I figured out where to go without a map or GPS.
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I am a low data user, but when I use the data (GPS, Google maps, etc) it is incredibly awesome and convenient. Having said that, I totally hate giving away so much private information to a bunch of companies. They know so much about me. It is really scary. Also, these phones essentially track your every move. Big brother is truly here. Between the location tracking of your phone and the police scanners automatically recording car plates with scanners, there is virtually NO privacy left. Riding a bike and using a dumbphone that is mostly turned off would give you so much privacy back.
Glad someone thinks like I do on this topic. I was at a conference and someone was talking about how we're giving away so much info--as if this was news!--when we use loyalty cards, etc. I don't use loyalty cards. Certain pharmacies (or maybe it's their employees?) will use their card so you get the discount. I've also had other customers offer to swipe theirs. Heh heh. I love that. I am confusing the data!
I do use a credit card so the CC company knows everything I buy that I do not buy in cash.
I live in the DC area, and it's true--though DC or whoever is responsible tries to hide it--that every car plate is scanned upon entering (and maybe exiting??) the city.
At the DC metro, I was told I could not ride to work since I would not let them search my purse. I was not even allowed to take a bus home. The police followed me to make sure I would not get on a bus. However, I could have walked two blocks and gotten on one. I got a ride from a friend and then I teleworked instead.
Thank goodness the police saved the world from me! I am SOOOOO dangerous.
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On the topic of data use and GPS, check out an app called OsmAnd if you use Android. It uses open source map data that you can download to your phone so that you can use the phone as a navigational aid even without a data connection. The interface is much less well-refined than Google Maps, but it's pretty handy in a pinch. If mapping is the only thing keeping you from giving up your data plan, I just took away your excuse!
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On the topic of data use and GPS, check out an app called OsmAnd if you use Android. It uses open source map data that you can download to your phone so that you can use the phone as a navigational aid even without a data connection. The interface is much less well-refined than Google Maps, but it's pretty handy in a pinch. If mapping is the only thing keeping you from giving up your data plan, I just took away your excuse!
Awesome! I don't have a data plan, and this looks handy!
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Looks like we're officially into the "responding to tone" and "ad hominem" area of Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement, and it only took 57 responses.
As for alarm clocks, are you kidding me? You need to pay $100+ a month so your phone can be an alarm clock? You know they sell those for $8.99 at Target? And get this, with the Target ones, you don't even have to remember to recharge them! Isn't that amazing?
As for GPS, my goodness, the complainypants level here is high. Can you believe it, I actually use paper maps. Paper maps are the bicycles of mustachianism. They also don't require an investment of $100+ per month.
As the person who brought up these uses, I can't help but feel that some of your disdain is directed at me.
....
And you can get off your high horse for not wanting a smart phone like some of us do. Why don't you go back to the typewriter while you're at it too.
Sure am glad your reasons for owning that slab of technology aren't bringing the worst out of you, Sylly.
Nobody is immune, folks. Nobody. (Not even me!) The first step is admitting you're human, and this is what this sort of technology can do to human behavior. Awareness of the problem is the first step. I'm sorry for singling you out specifically, Sylly, but when one's handed a great object lesson to a talking point...
I guess--since we've talked so much about addiction and alcoholism--it makes sense to compare the IPD response to teetotalism. The heart is in the right place, but I think it makes too strong a claim and doesn't really understand the benefits. If your only interaction with alcohol was walking in to a bar at ten AM, you would think everyone was an alcoholic and you would see booze as only a negative thing. This is what's happening when everyone you see with a phone has their phone out. You're only seeing the people who brought out their phone. Selection bias.
I finally understand where the failure to communicate between us lies. I'm hardly a technological teetotaler... I'm a systems administrator, for crying out loud! My entire guide is built around helping people use technology to lower their communications costs! Somewhere along the lines, you've decided that I'm anti-smartphones 100% of the time, when in reality I've always been pro-right tool for the job, even if it is a smartphone. However, I preach from the bottom-up mentality of tool shopping and recognizing the difference between most people's needs and wants. Focus on what you need, and it will do those jobs better than a convergence device. I say this from a place of knowledge and experience, and also from an historical perspective as well as one informed by scientific understanding. I have a very intimate perspective from the inside of the machine, and I see both the blessings and the curses that come with it.
I say this out of love, but the whole "if you don't accept all technology in its most current iteration, then you don't accept any technology at all" argument is tired, flawed, and even a little insulting. We have common ground here in the belief that technology is just a tool... the difference is, I believe in selective and informed choices in usage and don't dismiss older technologies as being worthless just because it's older, and I understand enough about human nature to know that most people don't have enough self-control to moderate if left to their own devices, so I try and make people stop and think about what they actually need instead of just succumbing to their base wants. Is this not the very heart of MMM's greater philosophy?
Cite selection bias all you want, but I've seen the market saturation numbers in sales and in the real world. This is a noticeable issue because a significant portion of the population is over-indulging in these activities daily both in public and in their homes, and the frequency of these occurrences are increasing over time, not decreasing. Technology addict logic is even visible within this very community and thread. We're not talking about people hanging out in bars all the time coming to the conclusion that most of the population has a drinking problem, the closest analogy is seeing a significant percentage of the general population publicly intoxicated around the clock and expressing concern. There's cause to treat it as a larger, growing societal addiction first, even if some people are capable of moderation.
Over the past five years, people like ourselves are becoming a minority, and in the under-30 crowd, it's approaching an anomaly as these things get cheaper. I say this because I do make a point to try and look for people in public who aren't using the things all the time, and they're rapidly vanishing. Not even houses of worship are immune anymore. In my own synagogue, I'm frequently in the back working with the AV team, and throughout worship service you'll see nearly half the crowd at one point or another take out their smartphone and look at the world around them through the screen for extended periods of time, and we're not a small congregation. During the teachings, this same half of the congregation has their faces buried in the same smartphones. Are they taking notes or reading scripture? Rarely. They're texting, doodling, playing games, watching videos... phone calls had gotten so bad that we started having to put up signs on the overhead telling people to turn the things off. GSM buzz is an issue with recordings some Sabbaths now, even despite the shielding.
The biggest problem with smartphones being so addictive are their physical size and form factor. They are designed with great psychological insight and marketing informed engineering - they are literally designed to always be physically noticed and to be constantly touched. Worse, the physically larger they get, the greater the mobile data dependence to drive any of their features, making them more expensive to operate. The mobile industry knows these things and exploits that knowledge to increase profits... you should read some of the industry papers on usage and marketing sometime to get a sense of exactly how dehumanizing their attitudes towards their customers truly is.
Outside of work-related tasks, smartphones don't actually add much real-world value to people's lives, outside of the psychological illusion of being important enough to matter. Worse, most of their conveniences erode and replace basic survival skills that most people should know how to do and take very little training to learn, yet abandoning those skills because a little device can conveniently do it for you makes you dependent upon others to do simple and basic things for you. These things erode people's memories and critical thinking skills. Now we get into the human nature argument. At the core of human nature, we all desire to know our place in the world and think that we matter. These devices fill that desire in such a way as to distract us collectively from productivity... and ironically enough, actually creates a greater physical separation between people than it does to actually draw us closer together. Madison Avenue has learned how to manipulate that desire for a greater place in creation to make a profit. This is the underlying thrust of our consumerist culture and how it arose to be such a problem in the first place. If you think for a second that this culture hasn't deeply permeated everyone's technology use, you clearly haven't seen Apple's stock performance for the past few years.
We need to stop and look at this from a larger and longer perspective. For millennia, people lead happy and fulfilled lives without these mobile communication devices. These things haven't even been mainstream for ten years, and look at what it's doing to our collective society as a whole right now. Can you say with a straight face that most people's behavior with these devices are socially strengthening and an intellectually decent change for the better? Ethics in the application of technology use is important, and the development cycle has accelerated to a point where the ethics arguments and laws can't keep up with the advancements themselves.
Today's technology is wholly unique in the span of recorded human history, even if nothing is technically new under the sun. Just because man can do certain things with technology, we should take the time to stop and ask if we should be doing it in the first place. We live in an amazing age, but knowledge is power, and power corrupts. We aren't talking about mechanical looms displacing weavers here. We're talking about centralizing all of humanity's information access within a database that has a deliberately high noise to signal ratio, fostering dependence upon technology and corporations to remember for us and do most of our work, and creating the ability to manipulate human perception through the application of selective data bias utilizing portable access terminals. Does this paradigm shift not warrant a bit deeper examination than all the technological advancements of the past 150 years combined?
In the mean time, let us take a pragmatic approach on an individual basis and treat technology as the tool it is. Let us question its true value and apply it only as needed, just like everything else in life. I've said my piece. If anyone feels compelled to respond, kindly make a point to actually read and take it in collectively instead of surgically extracting passages to argue with me over... I know that's difficult for many people to do on the internet, given how low reading comprehension has sunk with digital text these days, especially with anything that takes a significant amount of time and attention to read... but please try.
On a lighter note...
Suddenly I really want to go over and park myself on IPD's lawn and play Angry Birds (or Minecraft PE, more likely) on my smartphone. :)
Edit: "Hey mister... what's your wifi password? I wanna watch some youtube videos!"
Come on over! My yard is fenced, I xeriscape with russian thistle and poison oak, I've been known to practice bartitsu and carry a cane, and my house is in a jurisdiction that believes castle doctrine starts at the property line. As for the WiFi, I have open access. Just connect to the unencrypted hotspot named "MITM-Honeypot", and watch all the Youtube videos you can stomach! Be sure to also log into your Twitter and Facebook accounts while you're here and tell everyone else how much fun you're having.
See you soon!
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Looks like we're officially into the "responding to tone" and "ad hominem" area of Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement, and it only took 57 responses.
As for alarm clocks, are you kidding me? You need to pay $100+ a month so your phone can be an alarm clock? You know they sell those for $8.99 at Target? And get this, with the Target ones, you don't even have to remember to recharge them! Isn't that amazing?
As for GPS, my goodness, the complainypants level here is high. Can you believe it, I actually use paper maps. Paper maps are the bicycles of mustachianism. They also don't require an investment of $100+ per month.
As the person who brought up these uses, I can't help but feel that some of your disdain is directed at me.
....
And you can get off your high horse for not wanting a smart phone like some of us do. Why don't you go back to the typewriter while you're at it too.
Sure am glad your reasons for owning that slab of technology aren't bringing the worst out of you, Sylly.
Nobody is immune, folks. Nobody. (Not even me!) The first step is admitting you're human, and this is what this sort of technology can do to human behavior. Awareness of the problem is the first step. I'm sorry for singling you out specifically, Sylly, but when one's handed a great object lesson to a talking point...
Yeah, I'll admit that was snarky of me. The difference is tone. Your tone is civil (It also helps I respect you, based on your previous posts). The tone of the piece I quoted was disdainful. So I replied in kind -- not to justify my ownership of the phone, but because well, sometimes I lose my patience when people behave that way toward me.
Most of my frustration stems from the judgy-ness some people have displayed, especially when that judgement is based on sloppy reading of other people's posts. I apologize for my typewriter comment. It wasn't meant to say that you must accept any and all technological advancements. I actually agree 100% with what you said above, and I'll highlight one paragraph to try to explain why I found some earlier responses offensive.
I say this out of love, but the whole "if you don't accept all technology in its most current iteration, then you don't accept any technology at all" argument is tired, flawed, and even a little insulting. We have common ground here in the belief that technology is just a tool... the difference is, I believe in selective and informed choices in usage and don't dismiss older technologies as being worthless just because it's older, and I understand enough about human nature to know that most people don't have enough self-control to moderate if left to their own devices, so I try and make people stop and think about what they actually need instead of just succumbing to their base wants. Is this not the very heart of MMM's greater philosophy?
Conversely, the opposite is true. Just because an individual has chosen the more advanced technology, that doesn't mean s/he hasn't made an informed choice, which is what a handful of posts have implied -- that we with smartphones are simply sheep following the flow. There's not enough distinction between the device as a tool and the problems made prevalent by the device's capabilities. There's assumptions that anyone with a smartphone must fall into the latter camp too, which is just as bad as assuming anyone with a dumb phone is a luddite.
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I got the smartphone cos I like the color, and that cool M on the back, and I like the way the ring tone sounds, and CANDY CRUSH SAGA IS SO ADDICTIVE. So sue me lol!
Heck yeah I missed my smartphone. I went 18 months without on Ting. If Ting didn't jack with their pricing structure and Republic didn't come around though, I'd happily suffer another 18 months.
Things I enjoy about my smartphone:
*Having a decent camera to snap pics on the fly.
*Robust calendar and notes
*Converter app!
*flashlight
* and many other happy fun cool things that I probably don't need.
BTW, I don't pay for data and find $10 a month pretty damn doable.
Despite talk of "consumer whores" and whatnot, having a smartphone is a PERSONAL choice. Take a look at a real mustachian, the blogger in chief-triple M himself decides he NEEDS that smartphone, he pays for it and ENJOYS his mustachian life.
[Edit]
IPD, your last post compelled me to add this-you're a smart fellow and hold shed tons of knowledge between your fingers and brain, but it's those surgically extracted passages you're not wanting people to reply to that caused me to nearly dismiss your whole point and I consider myself a guy with relatively above average intelligence. In the big picture, it's how you say it.
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Despite talk of "consumer whores" and whatnot, having a smartphone is a PERSONAL choice. Take a look at a real mustachian, the blogger in chief-triple M himself decides he NEEDS that smartphone, he pays for it and ENJOYS his mustachian life.
I bet if you asked him, MMM would say that his smartphone is not a "need" at all, but rather an extremely extravagant indulgence that he can partake in because he is already retired and his stash provides enough income for him to spend a bit extra on such luxuries.
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I have a smartphone that I use with Consumer Cellular. I was tempted by Republic Wireless, but I didn't like the idea of having two radios (cellular and wifi) operating when I make calls (I generally leave wifi off unless I need it for something). Does anyone else worry about this or am I the only one here with tin foil in my hat (so to speak)? I don't claim to know that cell phones/wifi at close range are bad, but I don't believe that I really know that they're safe, either.
Anyways, back to the original question: I've gone from smartphone to dumbphone and back to smartphone (most all bought and sold used) and I do get the itch to go data-less from time to time. I may pick up a simple used dumbphone to allow myself "data vacations" from time to time (easy with a GSM phone).
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Well, since some of the pro-smartphone camp is bound and determined to derail the thread fully.... let's lean into it, shall we?
Despite talk of "consumer whores" and whatnot, having a smartphone is a PERSONAL choice. Take a look at a real mustachian, the blogger in chief-triple M himself decides he NEEDS that smartphone, he pays for it and ENJOYS his mustachian life.
It's less so if you're in hair-on-fire territory.
As for your defense of, "If MMM thinks Republic is a good deal, it must be true!"
I've held off for a good long time out of a sense of great respect for our generous host on voicing these specific points publicly, but I think it's time to finally address this idea head-on with what I do know.
1) He's already FI, most people on these forums optimizing their budgets are not. It's pretty facepunch worthy by his own standards to blow $150+ on another phone when it's so damned easy to get Republic level pricing through other providers with your current handset (or even a much cheaper one) by just using a little pre-packaged self discipline and research (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/communications-tech-son-of-the-superguide!/). The proprietary model of Republic's own service could even be said to be a bit hypocritical to endorse when measured against MMM's overall message. There are other great MVNOs used by plenty of mustachians that aren't Ting and Republic, which happen to be two of the more expensive in the landscape... and no wonder, given the referral programs for both.
2) Republic gave him his phones "for review purposes", I'm pretty sure he didn't buy them. Given their referral system and his traffic, I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't paid a blessed cent to Republic the entire time he's been with them. I'm sure I'd probably think it was a great service too even despite the caveats when it's effectively free. One has to honestly wonder, though, if he'd feel exactly the same about the service if he actually had to pay full price for it, hadn't gotten special exception treatment from the company with questions and support, and there was no referral system.
3) MMM doesn't interact with or keep up on these forums like I do. He just shoots out ideas into his blog and scrapes in the advertising revenue derived off of his reasonably balanced philosophy. I've been helping in the trenches here in the forum for over two years, and I'm regarded as the communications guy (though I'd rather be remembered as an ethics guy). MMM probably doesn't hear about other people's problems from their attempted switches to Republic at his recommendation, trying to clean up the financial and technical mess that the switch caused. I do. It's all sunshine and lollypops and TaC violating referral links (https://community.republicwireless.com/blogs/republic/2014/07/16/important-refer-a-friend-update) from most of the seagull-posting Republic users in the forums here, but I have emails and PMs over the past year and change that would make you as cranky about RW recommendations as I am... possibly more so given how riled up I've seen a lot of regulars get about pet peeves.
4) As for his supposed "need", see Seattle Cyclone's post:
I bet if you asked him, MMM would say that his smartphone is not a "need" at all, but rather an extremely extravagant indulgence that he can partake in because he is already retired and his stash provides enough income for him to spend a bit extra on such luxuries.
No matter the tone of Argyle, he had a valid point: smartphones are the clown cars of mobile communications devices. If you use one anyway? Fine! If you can actually justify it's presence? Great! Just don't pretend that it's anything more than a first world luxury, and stop telling people in oppressive debt trying to shovel out that their flagship smartphone habit is okay, or that somehow replacing that iPhone with a Moto G (or worse, a Moto X) on some magical VoIP company is a smart financial move. It isn't.
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Come on over! My yard is fenced, I xeriscape with russian thistle and poison oak, I've been known to practice bartitsu and carry a cane, and my house is in a jurisdiction that believes castle doctrine starts at the property line. As for the WiFi, I have open access. Just connect to the unencrypted hotspot named "MITM-Honeypot", and watch all the Youtube videos you can stomach! Be sure to also log into your Twitter and Facebook accounts while you're here and tell everyone else how much fun you're having.
See you soon!
(Long pause....) "Siri, what is 'bartitsu'?"
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What about an old fashioned pager? Since a pager does not emit a signal, you maintain privacy, pay very little and can call back when needed. You could agree on codes of what type of message it is and how urgent. Certainly, most people don't really need a cell phone even if they try to justify them. It really is just a luxury for most in their personal lives.
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What about an old fashioned pager? Since a pager does not emit a signal, you maintain privacy, pay very little and can call back when needed. You could agree on codes of what type of message it is and how urgent. Certainly, most people don't really need a cell phone even if they try to justify them. It really is just a luxury for most in their personal lives.
+1
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What about an old fashioned pager? Since a pager does not emit a signal, you maintain privacy, pay very little and can call back when needed. You could agree on codes of what type of message it is and how urgent. Certainly, most people don't really need a cell phone even if they try to justify them. It really is just a luxury for most in their personal lives.
I know this sounds like a logical argument to you, although I hesitate to call it an argument, since it more serves as a not-so-subtle way to mock people who you think are out of step with the present. But let's take your quasi-argument on a ride and see where it takes us.
---Brooms are for suckers! Enter the 21st century and get a Roomba, dummy.
---Manual transmission users. Um, ever heard of automatic? You might as well drive around in a horse and buggy.
---A plain toothbrush over a battery operated one? Tape a sign to your forehead that says MORON and call it a day.
---Why would you ever use a french press when you could use a Keurig? That's just holding on to the past, man.
I could go on and on, but you know where your logic leaves someone? Dead broke and wrapped around the hands of consumerist culture and a bunch of mostly dudes who want to take your money.
Repeat after me: just because a new technology exists does not mean everyone around me has to embrace it. And if they don't it doesn't mean they are stupid.
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I bet my wife misses hers - she lost it 2 days ago, so she has been sans-phone for a couple days. Hopefully it is hiding at the animal shelter she thinks she lost it at.
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Repeat after me: just because a new technology exists does not mean everyone around me has to embrace it. And if they don't it doesn't mean they are stupid.
Jane, in light of Fa's other post, I think they were actually being serious.
They are quite right about mobile calling needs, as even a majority of people's cellphone usage is conditioned and not actually necessary, and part of that is due to the historical costs of landline service. When cell coverage became "good enough" and the average price per line with subsidized mobile phone prices hitting just a little above the average landline price, people traded the extra money for the portability... this eventually lead to people believing and living as though they needed mobile phone service for most of their calling when in reality they just lost their patience of waiting until they were home to make calls. The subtle yet massively transforming nature of mobile communications on thought processes and social attitudes can be scary to see sometimes.
As for Fa's specific point about pager service, it's a pretty dead technology at this point, and I don't know of a provider that offers the service for less than $10/month. It's quite literally cheaper (and easier) to use a cellphone for these services because it's the dominant technology... which isn't to say that one still couldn't apply similar thinking to text messages by only using those as low-priority paging as an alternative to calling if it isn't urgent enough. If you want to communicate on the move, privacy is dead. C'est la vie.
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Repeat after me: just because a new technology exists does not mean everyone around me has to embrace it. And if they don't it doesn't mean they are stupid.
Jane, in light of Fa's other post, I think they were actually being serious.
Ah, thanks. Internet communication has inured me to sarcasm and hyperbole to the point that I don't recognize sincerity anymore. My apologies.
I have, however, seen that exact argument made before as a way to make fun of people who reject technology.
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I've never had one. If I'm with friends, I can just borrow theirs if needed.
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...
Anyways, back to the original question: I've gone from smartphone to dumbphone and back to smartphone (most all bought and sold used) and I do get the itch to go data-less from time to time. I may pick up a simple used dumbphone to allow myself "data vacations" from time to time (easy with a GSM phone).
You can turn off cellular data on iOS and Android. Let me know if you want to know how and can't find it online.
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What about an old fashioned pager? Since a pager does not emit a signal, you maintain privacy, pay very little and can call back when needed. You could agree on codes of what type of message it is and how urgent. Certainly, most people don't really need a cell phone even if they try to justify them. It really is just a luxury for most in their personal lives.
I know this sounds like a logical argument to you, although I hesitate to call it an argument, since it more serves as a not-so-subtle way to mock people who you think are out of step with the present. But let's take your quasi-argument on a ride and see where it takes us.
Sorry I missed this. I was not being sarcastic and did not intent to mock anyone. The lack of privacy in today's world does bother me. I know a privacy author who recommends carrying a pager and a turned off very dumb phone to keep your privacy. According to IPD pager service is virtually dead and not cheaper, so that may not even be an option. I still strongly dislike the absence of privacy and wish there was a solution without abandoning cell technology. But convenience and price trumps just about everything else...That is true for me as well, since I have a smartphone.
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Here's an interesting read related to the topic: http://lifehacker.com/my-year-with-a-distraction-free-iphone-1634907314
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Here's an interesting read related to the topic: http://lifehacker.com/my-year-with-a-distraction-free-iphone-1634907314
It's really not hard to do. It's essentially what I do, except I just never set up those 'distractions' from the very beginning. I set up a dummy gmail account just so I can use the Play store to download apps without connecting my phone to my actual email. I figure it has the added benefit of minimizing my personal info contained or connected to the device. I decided what I use my phone for (calls, maps, camera, shopping list & price book) and set up/installed the appropriate apps, and deleted what I can of the rest. My phone is still just a phone, not my whole life in a pocket-sized device.
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Here's an interesting read related to the topic: http://lifehacker.com/my-year-with-a-distraction-free-iphone-1634907314
It's really not hard to do. It's essentially what I do, except I just never set up those 'distractions' from the very beginning. I set up a dummy gmail account just so I can use the Play store to download apps without connecting my phone to my actual email. I figure it has the added benefit of minimizing my personal info contained or connected to the device. I decided what I use my phone for (calls, maps, camera, shopping list & price book) and set up/installed the appropriate apps, and deleted what I can of the rest. My phone is still just a phone, not my whole life in a pocket-sized device.
What exactly is "wrong" with communicating with your friends and family? Do you also leave your phone unplugged in case your mother calls? Or hide behind the curtains if a friends comes over to say hi? At work do you run away if somebody strikes up a conversation? When did talking to people become bad just because it's via text or email?
I live thousands of miles from most friends and family, if anything I talk/email with them too little, not too much.
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I'm tired and somewhat insulted that some people still conflate smartphone users with hedonistic and/or socially inept people.
- YES, I do own and use a smartphone.
- NO, I am not addicted to using it for nonsensical time-wasters. Quite the opposite: if I use it, it is for something which saves me time and sometimes stress later on. (Remember the joy of spending 30 minutes memorizing/printing out your route before a trip, having to go home when having missed the person you wanted to meet, or the sheer pleasure derived from sprinting from your bus to your connecting train but missing it because you first have to use the ticket machine to buy a ticket? Only smartphone-addicted morons wouldn't miss this, right?)
- NO, I am not playing with my smartphone during social activities instead of having conversations.
- NO, I am not playing with my smartphone instead of reading books or doing other meaningful activities.
- NO, I am not buying the latest and greatest but wear out the one I have. Looking at 5y+, similar my computer (currently 7 years and counting).
Chances are that I still am a socially inept person, but that's probably stronger correlated with me posting in an internet forum instead of being outside or having a good read than with owning a smartphone.
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I'm tired and somewhat insulted that some people still conflate smartphone users with hedonistic and/or socially inept people.
*ahem*
I never really wanted one to begin with, but having watched what they do to people who own them made me decide I wouldn't accept even if I was offered both the phone and plan for free:
Smart phone users spend an average of 131 mins per day on mobile communication. Thats out of only 480 minutes of discretionary time (not work or sleep) or about 1/3 of all free time. And that doesn't even include non-communication apps like games.
The average user checks FaceBook 14 times per day
75% of smart phone users sleep with it on and in the same room
25% have phone on and in reach 24hours a day
80% all but an hours or two
a quarter check while driving
almost a third check during meals with others
almost 2/3 check at least once an hour, even if it doesn't ring or vibrate
20% check their phone every 10 minutes
84% said that they could not go a single day without their cellphones
one in three would rather give up sex than go a week without their phones
A third admitted that being without their mobile for even short periods leaves them feeling anxious
Basically, the smart phone is the opium of the 21st century. Although I suppose a good drug addiction can cost a lot more than $160 per month, so I guess its a pretty good deal...
Wow, those are some sad numbers. What's your source? I might turn this into an exercise for my classroom -- most of my students are among the addicted.
http://www.mediabistro.com/alltwitter/smartphones_b39001
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/16/smartphone-addiction-time-survey_n_1791790.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865596120/58-percent-of-smartphone-users-dont-go-1-hour-without-checking-it-2-are-you-one-of-them.html?pg=all
http://www.pewinternet.org/fact-sheets/mobile-technology-fact-sheet/
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2014/05/20/how-your-smartphone-messes-with-your-brain-and-your-sleep/
https://fb-public.app.box.com/s/3iq5x6uwnqtq7ki4q8wk
...the thing with many of Bakari's usage statistics are that they're industry averages from real world usage reported by mobile carriers. (That's right, the mobile industry actively keeps track of how much you actually fiddle with your smartphones beyond talk, text and data statistics.) Just because you don't claim to use your smartphone that way doesn't mean the majority does. You are an outlier, not the norm. Deny it all you want, but there's clearly a large scale problem here, and it's tied directly to the device in question.
You are the outlier, not the norm. Either you're 100% correct about your usage, in which case you need to learn to let the valid criticisms for the majority of the public roll off your back, or you need to come to terms that you're just as human as the rest of us and that you might have more of a problem than you think.
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You are the outlier, not the norm. Either you're 100% correct about your usage, in which case you need to learn to let the valid criticisms for the majority of the public roll off your back, or you need to come to terms that you're just as human as the rest of us and that you might have more of a problem than you think.
What's that supposed to mean? Do I have a problem if I get miffed about generalizations? Or that I do have a problem if I own a smartphone and am only 99% sure that I'm using it sensibly? Sorry, I might actually not get that (English is not my first language).
Back on topic -- I second the suggestion to track your usage and select a provider/contract/package which most closely matches your usual (not your "potential") usage. People are not good at estimating. You can use your provider's bills if they are detailed enough, or, on an iPhone, you can go to Settings > Mobile Network, reset the counters and track them for a few weeks. I'm sure other smartphones have similar or better usage tracking capabilities.
Edit: I have no problem about valid criticism, only with sweeping generalizations, even if they are statistically founded. "I hope you don't mind that we didn't invite you. Men are just much more physically aggressive and we didn't want any fights at our party!" Har har thanks a lot.
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What exactly is "wrong" with communicating with your friends and family? Do you also leave your phone unplugged in case your mother calls? Or hide behind the curtains if a friends comes over to say hi? At work do you run away if somebody strikes up a conversation? When did talking to people become bad just because it's via text or email?
I live thousands of miles from most friends and family, if anything I talk/email with them too little, not too much.
From the article
In 2012, I realized I had a problem. My iPhone made me twitchy. I could feel it in my pocket, calling me, like the Ring called Bilbo Baggins. It distracted me from my kids. It distracted me from my wife. It distracted me anytime, anywhere. I needed to take control.
If you don't have a problem. Good for you. The article and suggestion clearly doesn't apply to you.
What is it with people and putting words in my mouth?
I have nothing against smart phones, or people who use them. They're great technology. But as has been pointed out by others, it's getting to the point where it can and often is overused.
The article I was replying to is pointing out one way someone has decided to reduce his overuse -- by cutting out the superfluous stuff that is driving his overuse. I reply to reinforce the idea as something that is not difficult to do, especially if you do it from the beginning (for those folks who are just starting to use a smart phone). How is that exactly translating to not picking up calls from my mother?
I never said there's anything wrong communicating with friends and family. I just don't want to be 'plugged in' 24/7. I check my email regularly on my computer at home. I don't see a need to check it when I'm out and about. And if someone needs to reach me RIGHT NOW, they can call me, or text me even. I never said anything about disabling the phone's calling or messaging capability.
Like you, I keep social media account(s) simply to keep in touch or do light banter with far away friends and families. But I do this on my computer at home, because like email, I don't see the point in having it while I'm out and about. I'm certainly not going to document my every move on it for privacy. And for that privacy reason, I also choose to keep as much personal info out of my phone as possible. I'm making the trade-off between privacy (I value) and the convenience of being able to reply to email / social media immediately (I don't value much at all).
What I do find sad is when I see a family eating out, while a number of the members are perpetually staring at their phone/tablet. In that case, it's their loss -- but it serves as something to avoid to me.
What I find infuriating is when I see someone driving while being distracted by their phone (or anything, really), because in this case, his/her action can hurt others.
I have never said or implied, that everyone who uses a smart phone commits these things, or is overusing their phone. I've actually objected to that generalization earlier in this thread.
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Surprise; people are rude assholes, phones or not.
Do we really need to fund research to find that 90% (100%?) of people are self-centered dicks? I could have told you that for free! This is not because of smartphones, it's because humans.
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In response to the OP- I can tell you from having traveled quite extensively in the past year, all over the world, in fact: it is really difficult to find yourself more than 100 yards from an accessible Wi-Fi network. Anywhere. I could walk down the street in the small city of Villavicencio in Colombia and find an open network in less than 10 minutes. Wi-Fi is everywhere. Ditch the data.
And if you're brave, ditch your cellphone plan completely, grab an old android phone for cheap, and make/receive calls completely free with Wi-Fi + Google Voice + Groove IP + Ring.to. I did this a year ago and love it. Good luck and have fun!
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You are the outlier, not the norm. Either you're 100% correct about your usage, in which case you need to learn to let the valid criticisms for the majority of the public roll off your back, or you need to come to terms that you're just as human as the rest of us and that you might have more of a problem than you think.
What's that supposed to mean? Do I have a problem if I get miffed about generalizations? Or that I do have a problem if I own a smartphone and am only 99% sure that I'm using it sensibly? Sorry, I might actually not get that (English is not my first language).
It means that you're human... like the rest of us. Smartphones are designed to be used, even if they're not actually needed. Your own specific citations for ownership defense are at best trivial conveniences on a scale of universal human needs and wants. It's okay. We're all human here. All imperfect. It's because of this that smartphones are so easy to abuse in the first place. These things are convenience machines, and they prey on our desire for soft living. Embracing that understanding gives us a better perspective in how technology actually changes our lives, for better or worse.
Edit: I have no problem about valid criticism, only with sweeping generalizations, even if they are statistically founded. "I hope you don't mind that we didn't invite you. Men are just much more physically aggressive and we didn't want any fights at our party!" Har har thanks a lot.
That's an apples to oranges comparison, and more a "minor percentage" driving policy for larger groups example. The problem isn't as pronounced in developing nations yet, but it's coming. Here in the first world, it's a majority of the population issue, and there's clearly some scientifically grounded understanding as to why it's happening and why it should be regarded as an addiction issue. We are talking about fundamental human nature and biology that these devices exploit and develop addiction through. It's like sugar, or the nicotine in cigarettes. There's no shame in admitting weakness to these things... it's part of the human condition. Be humble enough to recognize that we're all flawed, and none of us should be so defensive as to critically define ourselves through the stuff we own and use.
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On topic: When I find myself wanting something and want to find out if this is actually a justifyable purchase, I follow one of the two following strategies. Just listing pros and cons is not enough (we humans are very good at deciding first, and rationalizing after):
1) Use a quantitative decision model (such as the spreadsheet from earlier in this thread). I believe you can do that for almost everything (monetary or not) by converting all units to the universal unit: amount of quality living time. I've done that a number of times, and it worked well so far (I admit that "fiddling with spreadsheets" counts as quality time for me ;) ).
2) As suggested often in these forums, wait the purchase out and see if the "want" feeling subsides. If it doesn't, you can do the following to find out if you are actually just craving the "consumption kick" (this is morally problematic): Abuse the return policy by buying the damn thing and returning it 2 days later (as a rule!). Then wait and see if that urge has subsided. Often, it does, surprisingly. There have been some cases where I ordered something and the order got messed up somehow. Then, I sometimes actually cancelled the order altogether because I realized that I didn't feel like I needed it anymore. That's how I realized this. It's funny how we think we're rational... I think this has something to do with the fact that no matter where we are in our lives, we always think we've been sooo stupid doing this/that two years ago, and we're much smarter now. Yeah, right. :)
Rules like "only buy used" and "buy only to replace broken/used up stuff" are helpful, too. While they don't help to whittle down your consumption, they at least help you to avoid amassing tons of crap you don't need.
Off-topic:
@I.P. Daley, I appreciate your answer. I somewhat got triggered by the idea of being lumped into and judged as part of a group. Maybe I do have to learn to let that roll off my back, maybe not. Thanks in any case for staying calm and friendly... I am just as human and lizard-brain-driven as anyone else, I'm just trying to use the hacks I know to make rational decisions (like above).
I do agree actually: When there are more opportunities to become lazy and let ourselves go, more people will do so. "With great power comes great responsibility." :)
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Off-topic:
@I.P. Daley, I appreciate your answer.
Glad we found some common ground, Edmund. ;)
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Smartphones(with data) of today are the msn messengers and other communication tools of yesterday, really portable
and people love to be connected.
To the question if the smartphone is missed,not for me, I still have one
but without a data plan,paying 3$ per month prepaid.Bought cash.
Used for multimedia,calling to meet and emergencies,not the internet.
If your savings rate is already extremely high why not? If it gives you daily and longterm pleasure of usage I consider it worthy.
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A $99 Moto E is coming out in October, according to an email from Republic Wireless.
I’ve been a happy Republic Wireless customer and smart phone user for 1 year now.
I'm especially liking the SmartPhone when I travel.