Dec 2015: 57 y/o need input on plans (long) UPDATES: AUG '18/NOV '18/MAY'19

[sonya]

Hello all,

I have another account here, I am a reader and sometime participant in the forums, but am not comfortable posting this under my other account for personal reasons.  I'm actually not really comfortable posting this at all, but you people are thoughtful, wise, brutally frank, and willing to lend an ear and sage advice.  For that I thank you in advance.

Current situation/background:

I'm 57, a teacher making just under $50k per year.  Married 25 years.  We have our house paid for, but no savings except about 15k in my teacher's retirement.  I stayed home with our kids while they grew up and have been teaching for five years.Two wonderful kids - 19 and 16.   I'm pretty frugal, and we live below our means, but not by much - old cars, no eating out, etc.

About my husband:    He is addicted to day trading - he stares at a screen all day and doesn't trade, just watches and sim trades.  I know I am enabling him by not being more of a bitch.  I have made good suggestions, and spoken to him, and spoken to him, and spoken to him.  He promises to work, to look, but he doesn't.  His original profession was very talented, dependable carpenter - stayed very busy just on word of mouth.  He won't start a remodeling company and supervise workers. There's always some reason he can't do whatever work is suggested. His physical condition is shot - back, knees, heart, joints in general.  Not being a confrontational person, it's easier on my psyche just to have him stay home.  And no, he doesn't have dinner waiting on the table when I get home from work, but he does take care of some things - works on our old cars and fixes whatever needs it around the house.  In the end, for right now, I'm comfortable with the status quo.  His family, with whom I'm very close, is flummoxed (their words) and makes no sense of his behavior.  Yes, he's depressed, but at some point, you just have to recognize your problems and do something about them.

I want out of our marriage.  I'm not happy, although our home life is relatively peaceful; and I'm semi content. I work hard.  I'm out the door at 6am and when I come home, I'm tired.  Not to say I don't like my job - I like it very much, although working with inner city kids is taxing - they need me, and their problems are WORLDS worse than mine.  When you see 6 yr olds with sunken in faces throwing up from chronic hunger, it tends to put things into perspective.

My daughter, 16, is an over-achiever and recovering cutter.  She seems happy right now (after finding a wonderful therapist), but I'm vigilant for any signs of returning depression, which runs very deep on my side of the family.  She has her heart set on college in England, knowing full well she will have to rely on scholarships and loans.  She has 2.5 yrs til she graduates high school.  The more I think about it, the more I think she will be very disappointed with the offers for international financial aid, even if she's at the top of her class at a very difficult school.  Not even sure her associates degree (from wonderful early college high school program) will transfer - not counting on it.

Son, 19, has wanted to be a physicist since middle school.  He graduated high school with an associates degree (early college program - both kids), we sent him away and without supervision he flunked out his first semester.  Just not mature enough.  He and my husband piddle farted around so much with the Uni's financial aid people that all loans and grants expired and were never dispersed.  We still have about $6k left to pay the Uni before they will release his transcripts so he can go to (a very good) uni closer to home, with a very good physics dept.  He has been working at a local restaurant (good for seeing how the other half lives) and doing high school tutoring.  Majority of his money goes to paying for car and to the University where he flunked out.



Going into the future:

Going to have to slowly TRY to wean DD from the idea of going overseas to college.  She can go over the summers, and maybe do a semester of exchange learning.  Again, we've got a little time there.  Her school is so serious about kids getting into good colleges with maximum financial aid, that during jr and sr years they provide an entire credited class of assistance and guidance in this dept.  With her grades, she can get into some top schools in our state no problem, and we'll see what kind of scholarships and assistance she qualifies for.

Son will start back to school Fall 2016, and have to hit it hard.  He knows he will have to live at home and rely on loans.  I don't have a problem with him not working as long as he's getting a good number of credits under his belt.  Upperclassman physics credits will be no picnic.

As for me - after living here 20 yrs, I want to sell our home in the next year or two. After necessary renovations and realtor costs, husband and I will probably split about $200k.  I'd like to move into an apt - something small.  My plans are to work until I"m 70, socking away as much as I can.   Continue with eating well and exercising so I can keep up my good health and strength.  I will break it gently to the kids about their parents breaking up.  They know something is wrong, with their Dad not working - they won't be too shocked, although it will be very sad.  I don't look forward to starting that conversation, but as with most things, it will fall on me.

Husband can move in with his brother and SIL - they have two empty bedrooms and would probably take him in.  Until then (whenever that may be), he will be painting our house.  He's already done the front room - he knows he has a lot more to go - we have a big house.  He will also supervise or do himself the kitchen remodel - granite countertops, new tile, repaint cabinets, probably new appliances. We will have to take out some kind of loan for this, and for recarpeting the entire house.

I do worry about where my daughter will stay during summers and breaks.  I don't want to pay for a bigger apartment to accommodate this.


 So - I don't have a specific question.  Looking for thoughts/suggestions/criticisms from those on the outside looking in?  I've tried to include the most important and relevant parts.  I realize this is more of a life plan question than solely financial, which is why I didn't include a lot of money amounts.  I'm sure there's details I've left out - feel free to ask.

Thank you.  (Now after rereading this 48674 times I just have to click "post".)

[arebelspy]

I don't have much to offer in the way of suggestions, just want to say I'm sorry.

Thank you for your work with the kids at your school, and your guidance for your own kids.

Does your husband know you want to split up?  Have you tried marital counseling?  Have you encouraged him to seek counseling for his (potential) depression?

The daughter thing will work out.  The son it may be tough to push to work hard in college. Why do you need his failing transcripts released from the old school?  Keep paying that debt to be rid of it, but have him enroll ASAP in the local college, even without those transcripts.  Are you sure college is right for him?

Most of all, and I do mean most of all, above all the above: make sure you take care of your self.  You said depression runs in your family, so be vigilant.  Even if you get what you think you want, and it will be best in the long run, it can be painful in the short.  Make sure you are doing what you need to do to keep yourself well.

Good luck, I hope you update us.  I'm rooting for you!

[sonya]

Thanks, arebelspy.  Being a fellow teacher (or used to be), you may know exactly my experience with being the only stable adult in a child's life.

I have not spoken to husband about my wishes, except for selling the house.  I no longer wish to be married, and have no desire for marriage counseling.  As far as depression, yeah, I'm pretty much right at zero - no ups or downs, nothing affects me, which helps at work, anyway.  It is what it is, and possibly will change when I get out of my situation. 

As far as son - the local uni will not allow him in until they have his grades.  The state records exchange system ensures, among other things, a student can't just show up at a school leaving failing grades behind.  New uni won't talk to him until they see official transcripts, which are basically being held hostage by old uni.  Again, it is what it is, so old uni must be paid first. 

ETA he's maxed out on his community college credits, which is where he went after we pulled him out.  He went from flunking calc 1 (away at uni) to taking calc 1 fast track and calc 2 fast track in one semester at local community college, and his professor asking him to help tutor the other kids in his class.  Was never a question of capability, just motivation.

As far as college - well, when your kid wants to be a physicist from age 14, what can you say but ok?  LOL  The working in the real world has matured him somewhat, fortunately.

Thanks for your words of encouragement. :)

[pbkmaine]

I think you need to talk with your kids about money. Let them know that you are on their side, and that they will have powerful emotional support from you, but money is limited. You need to help them figure out what that means for their college plans. It sounds like your kids have wishes, but as financial planners say, wishes are not goals. Goals need to be specific and measurable. If your son wants to be a physicist, what is the best way to accomplish this? And if your daughter wants to study abroad, what are her options? Sounds like her school will help here.

The same wish versus goal applies to you as well. If your husband has an inkling that his home will go away once he paints the house, then it may take him 20 years to do so. Maybe this is something you need to pay someone else to do, to move on with your life. Get the house in shape, find an apartment, get a couple of futons so the kids will have a place to sleep, then get out there and live your life.

It sounds to me like the current situation is deeply toxic to you, and may be so to your husband as well. I was in a toxic marriage once, and understand that it makes everything in your life worse. I can tell you, based on my own experience, that there is a better, happier life out there for you. It will be a hard slog from here to there, but so worth it. Hugs to you.


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[former player]

Your husband was sole breadwinner to his family for 20 years, and wore out his body doing it.  You've only been sole breadwinner for a maximum of 5 years. so quadruple the amount of tired you sometimes feel and you may be near what your husband feels.  If you can get him help for his health problems, please do.  And perhaps be grateful he is only "sim" trading - which sounds to me as though he is doing the equivalent of playing a computer game - rather than getting you both into big real-time debt.

Have you done the research on what you need to do to sell your home and what the financial returns would be for the cost put in?  Are you sure a full kitchen remodel is necessary, rather than a cosmetic upgrade?  Are the carpets worn, or would a professional clean be sufficient to renew their appearance in some or all of the rooms?

I think you and your husband together have a legal and moral obligation to house your daughter until she graduates from high school or reaches 18, whichever is later.

[sonya]

I think you need to talk with your kids about money. Let them know that you are on their side, and that they will have powerful emotional support from you, but money is limited. You need to help them figure out what that means for their college plans. It sounds like your kids have wishes, but as financial planners say, wishes are not goals. Goals need to be specific and measurable. If your son wants to be a physicist, what is the best way to accomplish this?

[i]The plan is for him to finish his last two years starting Fall of 2016, most probably on student loans, while living at home.  It's just how it's going to have to be, as much as we hate debt.   And the kids know money is tight - they are learning to be frugal as well. 
[/i]
The same wish versus goal applies to you as well. If your husband has an inkling that his home will go away once he paints the house, then it may take him 20 years to do so. Maybe this is something you need to pay someone else to do, to move on with your life. Get the house in shape, find an apartment, get a couple of futons so the kids will have a place to sleep, then get out there and live your life.

It sounds to me like the current situation is deeply toxic to you, and may be so to your husband as well. I was in a toxic marriage once, and understand that it makes everything in your life worse. I can tell you, based on my own experience, that there is a better, happier life out there for you. It will be a hard slog from here to there, but so worth it. Hugs to you.

Thanks - yes, agreed, it's toxic.  Making plans to move ahead, but not letting anyone here know - makes it a difficult situation.
[/i]

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Your husband was sole breadwinner to his family for 20 years, and wore out his body doing it.  You've only been sole breadwinner for a maximum of 5 years. so quadruple the amount of tired you sometimes feel and you may be near what your husband feels.  If you can get him help for his health problems, please do.  And perhaps be grateful he is only "sim" trading - which sounds to me as though he is doing the equivalent of playing a computer game - rather than getting you both into big real-time debt.

[i]Thanks for your frank reply, I do appreciate it.  Actually, out of the last 20 years, my husband has worked about 10 in a physical capacity.  I just signed us up for Obamacare starting in January so he can get healthcare, but I doubt he will choose to go.  As far as sim trading vs. real trading, he only has about 4k in his trading account - once that's gone, he's done.  (Grateful?  For an addiction?  No.)
[/b][/i]
Have you done the research on what you need to do to sell your home and what the financial returns would be for the cost put in?  Are you sure a full kitchen remodel is necessary, rather than a cosmetic upgrade?  Are the carpets worn, or would a professional clean be sufficient to renew their appearance in some or all of the rooms? 

We've raised a family over the past 20 years on this carpet - it really needs to go.  As far as the kitchen - the main expense would be new cabinets, which we don't need - we will paint the cabinet doors, do the countertops and floor, and probably new appliances.  It's what buyers expect around here. 
[/i]
I think you and your husband together have a legal and moral obligation to house your daughter until she graduates from high school or reaches 18, whichever is later.

This is something I wrestle with.  Of course she will be housed as long as she needs - the question is will it be here in this house, or with me in an apartment?  At worst, she'd spend her senior year with me (and possibly her brother) in an apartment.  Obviously I'd move close enough to keep her in the same high school.  I don't know how disruptive it would be to her.  I know she'd want to see her mother happy, but I want to see her happy. Can she truly be happy the way we currently are living?  And without telling of my plans, it's hard to know.
[/i]

[pbkmaine]

Why can't you tell your plans?


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[Blatant]

Obviously all I know about your situation is the information you've chosen to provide. Here's my take:

The math is unclear. You've been married for 25 years. You've been working for 5 years. Thus, by the provided math, you didn't work for 20 years while, presumably, your husband did. And in what sounds like a physically demanding profession.

Now, for whatever reason (disinterest, depression, disability, etc.), your husband is no longer working and you don't feel like you want to remain in the marriage. Did this feeling exist when he was the breadwinner? Or did it start after? You're painting yourself like a gold-digger whose dig has run dry.

Perhaps I'm a traditionalist or a romantic. What happened to just loving your partner? You know, like those vows you took 25 years ago. If, in fact, you no longer love your husband, you should just walk and consequences be damned.

Hope I'm wrong, but that's how I read your post.

[soccerluvof4]

^ I read the same thing. Perhaps you could seek some counselling for yourself? If your that adamant about it too I don't think you should prolong telling him as well. Somethings not adding up here.

[sonya]

Why can't you tell your plans?

Because as soon as I tell him, I'm thinking we'll have to start the long procedure of separation, selling the house, filing, etc.  I don't want to kick him out while we're all there.  I wouldn't do that to him or my kids.

The math is unclear. You've been married for 25 years. You've been working for 5 years. Thus, by the provided math, you didn't work for 20 years while, presumably, your husband did. And in what sounds like a physically demanding profession.

Now, for whatever reason (disinterest, depression, disability, etc.), your husband is no longer working and you don't feel like you want to remain in the marriage. Did this feeling exist when he was the breadwinner? Or did it start after? You're painting yourself like a gold-digger whose dig has run dry.

I did address the bolded portion several posts up:  He worked about 10 of the past 20 years - the other ten were spent trying to make money day trading.  It all started with an inheritence, which he intended to use for trading, but just ended up taking out of his trading account every month to pay our bills. That money ran out years ago. Over all, with the very few trades he's actually made, he's only lost money.  That's the nature and truth about day trading for most people.   I have spoken to him about working easy jobs with no physical labor just to keep us from struggling, and we might even have a little money for my son's college - but he won't do it.  He's been like this many years. I've felt like this for years.  Now that the kids are almost grown I'm seeing a light at the end of the tunnel, but it's not going to be easy.  Also,  I'm seriously LOL'ing at me being a gold digger.

^ I read the same thing. Perhaps you could seek some counselling for yourself? If your that adamant about it too I don't think you should prolong telling him as well. Somethings not adding up here.

I saw a counselor over the summer several times;  mostly just to confirm my feelings and plans, however vague they were at the moment.   I've gotten comfortable with the status quo, and if I tell him, how could we possibly live together after that?  I"m not ready to jump into starting proceedings without having a plan in place.

[tomorrowsomewherenew]

If your daughter is mature enough to go away to college (not just in-state public schools), and is as good of a student as you describe, I would suggest you look at prestigious private schools. My husband and I met at a fancy-pants private school and it was far cheaper than public, in-state universities. Pay no attention to the price tag, and make decisions after financial aid comes in. The amount of aid I received each year was enough to buy a new luxury car, and my parents had a good income (about 90-100k).

[pbkmaine]

If your daughter is mature enough to go away to college (not just in-state public schools), and is as good of a student as you describe, I would suggest you look at prestigious private schools. My husband and I met at a fancy-pants private school and it was far cheaper than public, in-state universities. Pay no attention to the price tag, and make decisions after financial aid comes in. The amount of aid I received each year was enough to buy a new luxury car, and my parents had a good income (about 90-100k).

This is a very good point. Particularly true of the Ivies, with their large endowments.


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[MacGyverIt]

I'm 57, a teacher making just under $50k per year. 

...working with inner city kids is taxing - they need me, and their problems are WORLDS worse than mine.  When you see 6 yr olds with sunken in faces throwing up from chronic hunger, it tends to put things into perspective.

I don't have any words of wisdom to offer you but I wanted to thank you from the bottom of my heart for working as a teacher, especially in an inner city environment. Those kids probably find a lot of shelter and security in their time with you -- thank you for making such a difference in their lives.

Best of luck, you are in my thoughts.

[okits]

I just wanted to acknowledge that as the stay-at-home parent, unless you did no parenting and nothing towards running the household, it is untrue that you "didn't work" for 20 years.  Congratulations on successfully re-entering the workforce, I hear it's not easy after a long absence.

Have you spoken to someone in family law to examine your situation from that perspective?  There may be things like paying spousal support and college financial aid qualification for your kids that would be useful to know, in advance.

I understand why you're reluctant to openly mention divorce until you're ready to get the ball rolling.  On the one hand, it could be the kick in the ass your husband needs to address his mental health problems and get his act together.  On the other hand, it would also leave opportunity for him to engage in destructive behaviour (run up debt you'd be jointly responsible for, sell family possessions to gamble away on day trading, or angry confrontations in front of your children that they just don't need to see or hear.)  This is where the family lawyer's advice may help in finding the best way to go about this.

Not having all the information and not being in your shoes I don't really have many thoughts on whether you've tried "enough" to help your husband, improve the situation, or save your marriage.  You mentioned that things have been bad for years, which suggests deeply ingrained problems.  (In a rose-coloured world rehabilitation seems preferable to amputation, which is why I've mentioned this part at all.)

One thing that isn't entirely clear is if you (whether together or separate) will be "okay" financially.  Your plan to work until 70 suggests your finances are not perfectly robust.  What can be done to improve this (for you or both of you?)

Finally, I'm sorry you're in a situation you don't want to be in.  I hope the wisdom and kindness of this community is of help to you.

[Zamboni]

I'm sorry that you are having to go through this. It's surely very distressing. The death of a marriage needs to be mourned just as the death of a loved one, it's that hard for the people involved. So please give yourself space to grieve once the numbness wears off, which it will.

Some of the comments here have been pretty harsh, so don't let that add to your despair. You came here for support and ideas, and that is what you should receive. Apologies on behalf of the insensitive other posters.

On the practical side:
Yes, 20 year old carpets need to be replaced. I agree with the other poster who said that the kitchen remodel might be over the top, especially if you need to take out a loan for it. Definitely get the opinion of at least 3 realtors before you sink any money into that. Sure, they'd love a spiffy new kitchen to sell, but if you explain that it would require you to take loans, then they might say that just cleaning and paint will go a long way. You can also get very nice laminate counter tops that looks just like granite, but aren't and are a fraction of the price, if you really need new counters for staging the home. In many areas of the country it is a seller's market right now, and some high end buyers are just going to rip out what you put in to suit their own tastes anyway, so get some professional opinions before you do anything.

There are lots of websites (mostly written by lawyers) about what to do to prepare for divorce. Follow that advice carefully and get documents in order. One book that I found particularly helpful was Getting Divorced without Ruining Your Life. Among other things, it outlines how to keep track of expenses carefully so that you will really know how much you need to live after the split. If you are not already doing that, then start in January and track for at least 3 months to get reasonable averages of real costs for things like food. Also, you could be on the hook for paying him some of your earnings if he can't survive without it. They aren't going to leave him destitute any more than they would leave you destitute if he was working and you weren't. Definitely get all of your financial ducks and paperwork in a row and then seek legal advice.

Finally, and most importantly, no one can predict how hard or not hard this will be on your children. My parents split when I was in college, and frankly I was relieved and not upset at all. My brother was extremely upset and is honestly still somewhat upset 20+ years later. You just don't know how they will each react until it happens.

The book I personally found to be most helpful for my children during my own split was Mom's House, Dad's House: Making Two Homes for your Child. This might be somewhat helpful for you in thinking about your teenaged daughter. You can't expect or take for granted that she will just live with you and not with her Dad, and honestly you should do everything you can to promote a positive relationship between your children and their father. Since you've made no indication that he is abusive, he has a right to shared custody even if you think his future living conditions are not a "nice" as what you are able to provide. Take the high road always in this and you will not regret it later.

Good luck with everything.

[Playing with Fire UK]

In respect of the daughter studying in England, no universities that I applied to would accept credits completed elsewhere, I had the option to not attend classes and just take the exam for some, but due to the course structure this would have been risky (the syllabus is defined by what you are taught in the lectures and the classes). It's worth researching further, but prepare to be disappointed. Course fees will be around £15,000 per year and you are highly unlikely to get UK loans or scholarships as an international student.

The students who did a semester abroad to my university had a great time, and it was paid for by the home school. There are also loads of oportunities for summer jobs or travel. [PM me if your daughter wants to email someone in the UK about seeing the UK in general]

Scotland and the Netherlands (many universities are English-speaking) have cheaper university fees for EU students - it might be worth checking if they would be a cheaper option for international students also. 

In respect of everything else, do you know when you were last happy with your situation and what was different then? Is it anything you could change or improve. I hope it works out.

[deborah]

Actually there are a number of scholarships for international students studying in the UK. For instance (just to name the most prestigious), there is the Rhodes Scholarship, the Fulbright Program for citizens of over 150 countries, the Marshall Scholarship for Americans, and more recently the Gates Cambridge Scholarship for Americans. All of these are available for US citizens.

[justajane]

Actually there are a number of scholarships for international students studying in the UK. For instance (just to name the most prestigious), there is the Rhodes Scholarship, the Fulbright Program for citizens of over 150 countries, the Marshall Scholarship for Americans, and more recently the Gates Cambridge Scholarship for Americans. All of these are available for US citizens.

Almost all of the ones you mention are postgraduate scholarships and extremely, extremely competitive. I don't know of any scholarships for undergraduate studies. They might exist, but if they do, they are also off-the-charts competitive.

The better option would be for her to enroll in a university here in the States that has an exchange program in Europe in her desired location. Then study abroad for a year or possibly get a special dispensation to study for more than one year. This will be the more frugal option. I looked into studying in the UK for graduate school and was even accepted to several programs, but it was cost prohibitive.

[shotgunwilly]

Why can't you tell your plans?

Because as soon as I tell him, I'm thinking we'll have to start the long procedure of separation, selling the house, filing, etc.  I don't want to kick him out while we're all there.  I wouldn't do that to him or my kids.

So... you're just convincing him that the house needs painted, and updated, and fixed up so you can sell it and then split with your half?

[deborah]

Actually there are a number of scholarships for international students studying in the UK. For instance (just to name the most prestigious), there is the Rhodes Scholarship, the Fulbright Program for citizens of over 150 countries, the Marshall Scholarship for Americans, and more recently the Gates Cambridge Scholarship for Americans. All of these are available for US citizens.

Almost all of the ones you mention are postgraduate scholarships and extremely, extremely competitive. I don't know of any scholarships for undergraduate studies. They might exist, but if they do, they are also off-the-charts competitive.

The better option would be for her to enroll in a university here in the States that has an exchange program in Europe in her desired location. Then study abroad for a year or possibly get a special dispensation to study for more than one year. This will be the more frugal option. I looked into studying in the UK for graduate school and was even accepted to several programs, but it was cost prohibitive.

Agreed that is the better option. As I said, the ones mentioned are the most prestigious - I used them as examples that scholarships for international students ARE available, and I do know some of them are undergraduate.

[sonya]

Have you spoken to someone in family law to examine your situation from that perspective?  There may be things like paying spousal support and college financial aid qualification for your kids that would be useful to know, in advance.

I haven't spoken to anyone yet.  Just not there yet.

I understand why you're reluctant to openly mention divorce until you're ready to get the ball rolling.  On the one hand, it could be the kick in the ass your husband needs to address his mental health problems and get his act together.  On the other hand, it would also leave opportunity for him to engage in destructive behaviour (run up debt you'd be jointly responsible for, sell family possessions to gamble away on day trading, or angry confrontations in front of your children that they just don't need to see or hear.)  This is where the family lawyer's advice may help in finding the best way to go about this.

Truly, I can't see my husband doing any of these things.  Doesn't mean I'm in a rush to tell him, though.

One thing that isn't entirely clear is if you (whether together or separate) will be "okay" financially.  Your plan to work until 70 suggests your finances are not perfectly robust.  What can be done to improve this (for you or both of you?)

What I can do is pare down my expenses as much as possible.  I can see me living in an apartment for awhile until my kids get on their feet, as it's important that I be able to provide them a place to stay.  After that, I can rent out a room somewhere and put away the majority of my money.  Hopefully small raises will be coming my way.  Don't know if I'll be up to taking a second job.  I"m not going to count on it. 


Finally, I'm sorry you're in a situation you don't want to be in.  I hope the wisdom and kindness of this community is of help to you.

Thanks for your support - I'm reading everything!

I'm sorry that you are having to go through this. It's surely very distressing. The death of a marriage needs to be mourned just as the death of a loved one, it's that hard for the people involved. So please give yourself space to grieve once the numbness wears off, which it will.

Therapist says the numbness is a coping mechanism.  It's got it's pros and cons. :)


Some of the comments here have been pretty harsh, so don't let that add to your despair. You came here for support and ideas, and that is what you should receive. Apologies on behalf of the insensitive other posters.

No worries.  See above.  LOL.


There are lots of websites (mostly written by lawyers) about what to do to prepare for divorce. Follow that advice carefully and get documents in order. One book that I found particularly helpful was Getting Divorced without Ruining Your Life. Among other things, it outlines how to keep track of expenses carefully so that you will really know how much you need to live after the split. If you are not already doing that, then start in January and track for at least 3 months to get reasonable averages of real costs for things like food. Also, you could be on the hook for paying him some of your earnings if he can't survive without it. They aren't going to leave him destitute any more than they would leave you destitute if he was working and you weren't. Definitely get all of your financial ducks and paperwork in a row and then seek legal advice.

Thank you for the recommendation.  I have budgeted food and other expenses.  Also, my husband *is* capable of working.  I've suggested he substitute for special ed teacher's aids in our district.  I told him about four retirement age men I worked with in that capacity, and that was just the ones I know about.  Men in education are very valuable.   Moving in with his brother might force his hand.  I certainly can't. 


Finally, and most importantly, no one can predict how hard or not hard this will be on your children. My parents split when I was in college, and frankly I was relieved and not upset at all. My brother was extremely upset and is honestly still somewhat upset 20+ years later. You just don't know how they will each react until it happens.

The book I personally found to be most helpful for my children during my own split was Mom's House, Dad's House: Making Two Homes for your Child. This might be somewhat helpful for you in thinking about your teenaged daughter. You can't expect or take for granted that she will just live with you and not with her Dad, and honestly you should do everything you can to promote a positive relationship between your children and their father. Since you've made no indication that he is abusive, he has a right to shared custody even if you think his future living conditions are not a "nice" as what you are able to provide. Take the high road always in this and you will not regret it later.

She will want to live with me.  This I can say for sure.  Not because she doesn't love her Dad, or because I disparage him (I don't), but she's always been closer to me.  For example, people are shocked when I tell them the day after her first cutting, she came to me and told me.  She'd never do that with her father, and apparently most teens don't tell anyone at all.  We are all cordial to each other, although that's it.  I'm numb and not affectionate.  Of course, they will see their Dad whenever they want to.  I will even remain friends with him if he wants - although I'll doubt he will.   

Why can't you tell your plans?

Because as soon as I tell him, I'm thinking we'll have to start the long procedure of separation, selling the house, filing, etc.  I don't want to kick him out while we're all there.  I wouldn't do that to him or my kids.

So... you're just convincing him that the house needs painted, and updated, and fixed up so you can sell it and then split with your half?

A face punch!  Although I've only spoken to him about painting and selling, to answer your question - yes.  This is the gist of the whole thing.  It is terrible.  At some point, I'm going to have to tell him.  Figuring out when will be a large part of my problem fixed. Other than that, I draw a blank.  Is there really an optimum time?

[sonya]

To everyone who chimed in on my daughter's wish to study abroad - THANK YOU, THANK YOU. 

We will get this worked out.  My kids know I'm pretty laissez faire about most things - but I will not allow her to waste her hard earned associates degree she is earning while in high school.  She won't be happy about staying in the states at first, but I will do a little traveling around with her to visit some campuses.  She'll get over it.   Because she'll enter college as a junior, it will only take two years, and some of that will hopefully be in the U.K. on student exchange - either England or Scotland.

All the information is very useful!!

[john c]

If your daughter is mature enough to go away to college (not just in-state public schools), and is as good of a student as you describe, I would suggest you look at prestigious private schools. My husband and I met at a fancy-pants private school and it was far cheaper than public, in-state universities. Pay no attention to the price tag, and make decisions after financial aid comes in. The amount of aid I received each year was enough to buy a new luxury car, and my parents had a good income (about 90-100k).

I agree.  If you daughter is a stellar student, the money will come. 

As an aside, I frequently see this with working class folks.  They make decisions that are optimized for their current situation, but do not make sense/work for other situations.  Like going to a lower ranked school when one could get a lot of aid to go to a better school.  As long as the ROI is there (ie, get a degree that pays, like engineering/nursing/etc) a degree from a better school translates into higher earnings.  Otherwise, you're setting your kids up for the same life you have. 

BTW, with respect to your son, physics is not one of those degrees that gets you a job, unless he's planning on getting a masters degree in some sort of applicable engineering or materials science. 

Finally, consider the fact that in divorce you may be required to pay alimony to your husband due to the gap in incomes between the two of you.  Have you looked in to the formulas your local family court will use to determine this?

[Exhale]

Great comments here - we're rooting for you!

A helpful angle for your daughter may be to expand her focus to include the possibility of living in UK after her degree is done (studying in the UK is only one way to get to that country). Of course, if she can do a study abroad program that'll be great too. My concern is that her cutting may return if she's feels overwhelmed overseas (and you won't be around as an immediate resource). Living abroad is wonderful and also quite lonely at times. For that reason a well-supported study abroad program would be a good way to go. Then, if she really likes it there, she could go back to work after college. (Or, if no study abroad in college, she could go there after graduation to work and experience the place.) I did this after college in France (as an au pair and then as a waitress in a creperie) where I became fluent and benefitted greatly from the experiences.

For your son, some type of shadowing/interning and/or informational interviewing might be a good thing to do at some point. Basically, it's asking who are the people who have jobs he might be interested in having? How can he meet to ask them what they suggest as a pathway to the work that they do? The idea is to explore what the field looks like and what are the suggestions folks in the field have to offer. (If possible, don't wait until just before/after graduation to do this exploration.)

Last thought - my siblings and I asked our parents multiple times to please get divorced. We would have been so relieved if they had done so. However, they never did and it's an enormous and sad strain on the family. So, while it may not be easy in the short term, in the long run, it'll be healthier (including for your kids). Best of luck!

[Playing with Fire UK]

Actually there are a number of scholarships for international students studying in the UK. For instance (just to name the most prestigious), there is the Rhodes Scholarship, the Fulbright Program for citizens of over 150 countries, the Marshall Scholarship for Americans, and more recently the Gates Cambridge Scholarship for Americans. All of these are available for US citizens.

Almost all of the ones you mention are postgraduate scholarships and extremely, extremely competitive. I don't know of any scholarships for undergraduate studies. They might exist, but if they do, they are also off-the-charts competitive.

Agreed that is the better option. As I said, the ones mentioned are the most prestigious - I used them as examples that scholarships for international students ARE available, and I do know some of them are undergraduate.

Just to clarify, I said that getting a scholarship as an international undergraduate was highly unlikely, not that there were no international scholarships.

I'd echo concerns about travelling internationally for a first year in college for a young person who has struggled with self-harm.  The support networks in the UK vary hugely in how useful they are and dealing with a new system away from home (and the time difference to call home) would be a challenge for most people.

I don't know if this applies to your daughter, but the students who were 17 when they started at my college struggled with sociallising in pubs and clubs (clubs were cracking down on fake IDs) as most of the organised events where people make friends involved drinking, and those who were 18+ but hadn't drunk alcohol (both UK and international students) before had a tendency to get carried away and neglect work or become horribly ill in the first term.

@lhamo - agreed the IB is an amazing programme and world schools are much more supportive. Is the IB the equivalent of an undergraduate degree though? I thought it was the equivalent of an A-level (16-18 years old) course? Not sure what the equivalent in the US would be.

[Playing with Fire UK]

@lhamo - thanks for the explanation, I'd missed that you were suggesting the world college for pre-undergraduate (my lack of understanding of the US system!).
It's a really interesting alternative and could be an amazing experience.

[mozar]

I've got good news for your daughter. German universties are free for international students and half the classes are in english. If she has her heart set on the UK (which may be because its where her friends want to go) how about sending her there next summer for an internship? She could get a taste of what its really like. . Rotary club has scholarships for 15-19 year olds for international exchange programs. Colleges love seeing international exchange/ internships in highschool because it shows maturity.

For your son, he is now an adult. Let him know that you will do your best to support him whatever he does but its time for him to be independent. Also if he moves home, he might not leave.
As for your husband I agree its better to tell him sooner than later. It doesn't matter how you say it.

Eta: to be completly blunt, I think you are being overbearing with your kids. Like saying your son "needs to move home" he doesn't need to do anything really. It's his life and trying to manage it will breed resentment.

[sonya]

Hello all, well almost 3 years later, things look very different now.

My daughter started having panic attacks and terrible depression in May, right around the time she received her h.s. diploma and her AAS degree. She graduated top ten in her very difficult high school, had a pile of awards, cords, plaques, etc, and I was always afraid of finding her once more, curled up in her closet in the fetal position, unable to come out. I did get her help, that's another story for another day. She is MUCH better as I write this, and has been for the past two months, although I know I must remain vigilant, always, for signs of her illness returning. Her college plans, as of now, are to live with me and commute to a local very good uni so her debt will not be so bad (also I think she's not ready to separate from me). She wants to be a P.A., which I think is wonderful. We just came back from visiting my cousin, a retired P.A. in Oregon, so she could spend some time shadowing him at a free clinic he still volunteers at. Fabulous trip, no sign of depression or panic attacks. He was very impressed with her maturity and positive involvement with the patients. I do worry that all her friends are now online, and she sees no one IRL, and hope she'll make friends with people at school. Even her few h.s. friends, she only talks to online anymore.

My son moved out last October into a room in a house near his uni. It's cheap and horrible, but his independence is of greatest importance to him, and we respect that.  He recently informed me he wants to change majors from Physics to Engineering, to be an Environmental Engineer. I'm thrilled about this, because he was having a lot of difficulty with some of his classes. Quantum mechanics, for example, he had had to take twice. I'm not worried in the least about him - he'll be fine. He doesn't like having to take loans out, just because that's how we've always lived, trying to stay as debt free as possible, but it is what it is. He can keep a part time job. I pay his car note, auto insurance and health insurance, and he pays everything else.


My latest plan, as of May, was to tell my husband I wanted out of our marriage, and to move closer to my work. I didn't mention in any of my previous posts, but my commute was two hours per day in Houston rush hour traffic, and it exhausted me to no end. I wanted to live closer to work. With my daughter being ill, I knew I could only do one thing at a time, and breaking up the family with a divorce was now not an option. So the new plan was for the three of us to move to a small house near my work and rent our home out. Realtor told us $2k a month was not unreasonable, with some updating. (We own the house outright.) We both liked this better than selling, but when my husband ran the numbers for paint, carpet, and necessary repairs, they ran about $15k. On top of the debt I've taken on for three cars (me and the two kids, total monthly notes about $500 for all three, total car debt about 20k right now), he wasn't comfortable taking on more debt, and so he suggested  I get a small apartment near the school. He would stay at the house, make money trading (he promised it would be different now), and do some fixing up himself.  Fast fwd: I saw my opportunity to get out without the drama of a divorce, and took it. So here I am, with my daughter, in a 2 bedroom apartment, 8 minutes from my school. We are happy as clams living closer in to town - we can hop over to an art gallery in 15 minutes! It's the hood, so keeping it as cheap as possible.  I grew up in an apartment, I love apartment living.

My husband swore up and down he knew he could make money trading, and therefore pay the house bills which I told him I was not going to pay anymore. I left him about $1500 in checking/savings to pay house bills, and after that, I told him its only fair he's on his own, I'm not supporting two households. He'll have to pay electric, water, gas, internet, and, most importantly, the homeowner's insurance. All it takes is one month or maybe less, and you'll be cancelled. This last has me very worried. I did go over last weekend and show him how to do online banking, which bills were where, and of course, how to log into and pay the credit cards online. He has two cards in his own name, which he will be expected to pay or get dinged. I did say I wanted to put the utilities in his name, but he wanted me to keep them in my name, and he just pay me. Um, no. I have held off putting utilities in his name because I'm afraid they'll want deposits. I know I need to call and find out about this.

While I was at the house showing my husband online billpay, etc, I brought up the possibility of a job, maybe at a high end kitchen/bath showroom. He has the knowledge and talent. But he ended up walking out of the room. He is slightly more open to renting out a couple of rooms in the house, but geezus, I feel like I'm slogging through jello here trying to make something happen income-wise. Starting to think I'm just going to have to go live my life until the shit hits the fan.....but then what? The huge unknown is stressing me out so much I'm just sick and had to take the day off bc my diverticulitis is flaring, and if I don't take care of myself and rest, I can end up in the hospital like the first time I had it (again, from stress - physical and emotional). If he chooses to hit bottom, I'm thinking I'm going to have to see a lawyer to find out my options for our particular situation (or maybe before). This should all play out in the next month or so. If we have to end up selling our house, I'd be perfectly ok with that at this point. Also, I have to keep telling myself if my husband continues to act irresponsibly, it will give me that much more to stand on legally when it comes time to separate.

P.S. About the car notes - I'd HAD IT with cars that are undependable and break down, I make enough money to buy myself and my kids cars that are dependable in a large, dangerous city. One major source of stress gone. No more $2500 cars, Period.

So there you have it, comments, questions, face punches, all welcome.

[TheExplorer]

Why are you still married?

[Zamboni]

Congrats for getting your apartment! That sounds like a big improvement. Glad to hear that your children are making progress as well. Thank you for the update.

I'm with the Explorer on this. Why still married? Your children are grown. You are now living in separate locations. The hardest part is over (you are out of there!), but not the most important part: see a lawyer and draw up the paperwork to make it a "legal separation," which typically involves both parties signing a property settlement agreement. I have no idea what the divorce laws are in TX, but you are definitely at the point where you need to find out. Many lawyers offer free 30 min consultations. Make a couple of appointments and make a plan.

I have to keep telling myself if my husband continues to act irresponsibly, it will give me that much more to stand on legally when it comes time to separate.

No, actually quite the opposite. You don't need legal grounds to separate these days, and you are already functionally separated. Regardless of what each partner has been doing lately, the default starting point after a long marriage is a 50/50 split of assets and 50/50 split of debts. If your husband acts irresponsibly from now on (racks up more debt, for example, or doesn't pay the home insurance and then it floods or burns down), you are still fully 100% on the hook if you have not signed paperwork for legal property separation. It won't matter that the credit cards are only in his name . . . they'll come after you for the balance if he doesn't pay because the law allows it. What if he doesn't pay his taxes? Guess what: that's on you, too, as long as you are married. The city can foreclose on the house if he doesn't pay the property taxes, and if that happens you will lose your share of the current equity. It won't matter that he is mentally ill or dishonest or lazy or passive aggressive. You'll still be on the hook.

You've made a lot of progress. That must have been a tough process, but good work getting yourself in a better living situation! I don't blame you for putting off the legal part, but the time has definitely come for you to follow through on that. Lawyers can actually be extremely helpful . . . find one you like and ask him or her to draw up paperwork for you both to sign. Simple. Yes, it will cost some money, but it is worth it! (I'm a teacher, too, not a lawyer . . . I don't regret one penny I spent on my family law attorney.) Good luck!

[sonya]

I'm still married because of my daughter's state of fragile mental health. I didn't know how the two stressors of moving out of the only home she's ever known AND divorce would set her back. So when my husband, reeling from sticker shock on loan amounts to fix up the house, suggested I move to a small apartment (he actually also suggested I come home on weekends), I told him daughter needed to stay with me and I saw the chance to get out with no drama (as opposed to divorce and moving out, in which there would have been plenty of drama, possibly setting her back to panic attacks, cutting, who knows what else). Not worth it.

So she seems ok for now - school starts Monday, I need to give things a little more time to make sure she settles into a new school with new people. I don't want to sit on this process, but I'm not going to rush it at her expense.

[arebelspy]

Your daughter is an adult. She will struggle with it, but that will always be true. If she is enjoying your new apartment, it seems like a good time.

Your husband day trading could become a real problem; it is often akin to gambling. Definitely monitor his, yours, and both kids credit, to make sure he isn't opening new credit cards and racking up debt trying to day trade.

Thanks for the update! I'm glad things seem to be going better for your son, daughter, and yourself.

It sounds like it is time to move on from the marriage, if you aren't interested in trying to make it work. Drawing it out won't prove any benefits.

I know it's scary. Big change is.

We're rooting for you.

[RetiredAt63]

Laws differ by jurisdiction, but a legal separation is not divorce, and it does protect you financially by separating your finances from then on. 

[shawndoggy]

TX is community property (debt) right?

I'd have some concern of H squandering the family's assets (home equity) during marriage, and then potentially pursuing you for spousal support in a divorce. 

If you are going to stay married maybe at least get a postnuptial agreement and agree now on division of assets, so that you know what's yours is yours vis-a-vis H (though I don't think that really helps as to creditors).

[chrisgermany]

Talk to a lawyer or at least a legal aid clinic how to protect your assets and financial future in separation and / or divorce.
Get your daughter professional help to face the divorce. You may even find that it helps her once the elephant in the room can be talked about.

[Mezzie]

You might be surprised to find that your daughter could be relieved if you divorce. Kids at any age can sense their parents' tension. Maybe part of why she's doing better is the separation.

[CrustyBadger]

Hi sonya, I am just reading your journal for the first time.

I want to say I'm sorry for what your daughter has gone through!  I can understand not wanting to upset her emotionally more, by divorcing her dad.  However, you need to protect yourself financially.  It sounds like your husband is likely to add more and more debt to your lives.  I don't know how you can separate that risk, without divorcing from him.

[We be free if we try]

Just want you to know that I'm totally rooting for all of you, and to comment that, given your daughter's intelligence and anxiety, probably understands about as much about your family dynamics as you do. She may feel the need to take care of you, and/or your husband, or feel a lot of pressure to be "successful" in the face of it all. A 12 step group for you, her, all family members willing to try it could be helpful, along with professional support.

[MustacheAnxiety]

Wow, I just saw your story with the update and am rooting for you!  Lots of great advice regarding protecting yourself by getting a legal separation or even divorce.  Even if you don't feel comfortable pulling the trigger just yet, have you talked to your daughter about the separation and impending divorce?  Or at least let her know that you are there to talk about it if she wants to?  Please don't wait for shit to hit the fan.  It would be such a shame to see years of hard work get reversed and then some.

Hopefully, all your spare money is going to retirement accounts that will be protected from creditors.  But that doesn't save you from your husband going after the accounts in a later divorce.

A few money thought that were not otherwise addressed:
 - Regarding the car loans, is it possible to sell your son's car now that he has moved to a house by school?  If you don't want it to seem like a punishment/unfair some of the extra money could go to a great bike and help with tuition.
  - Sell or rent the house basically as is.  If you have a real eyesore that is a simple fix (stains that could be cleaned, a buzzing fluorescent light fixture, a hole in drywall) do the real easy stuff, but major kitchen and bath remodels are not worth it.  It seems like just a way for the realtor to seem useful and your husband to drag his feet.  All you have to do is make sure the place is super clean.  In our limited experience our neighbors in a very similar house with nicely updated kitchen and master bath and brand new roof (vs our with an 8 year old roof, and original 26 year old kitchen and bath) only got an extra 7K.
 - Is there any way to leverage your husband's day trading addiction/fascination into getting him to get a divorce and sell the house?  I bet he thinks he could make a boatload of money with 100K to day trade.

Good luck!

[Gondolin]

You might be surprised to find that your daughter could be relieved if you divorce. Kids at any age can sense their parents' tension.

+1000 to this. The years my parents tried to stay together "for the kids" when their marriage was clearly over were the worst years of my life! The divorce was a relief. The transition was had but the alternative would have been unimaginable.

[FireHiker]

My parents stayed together "for the kids" and it was the worst thing they could have done. If you are done with the marriage, make it official and move on. I second the other posters who said your daughter may actually be relieved. I know I was. I had known since I was 9 that my parents weren't happy but they didn't separate until I was 16 (and then didn't legally divorce until I was in my 20's because neither of them was willing to spend the money to file...).

[BrightFIRE]

Sonya, you say you're "not a confrontational person" - but in fact, it's worse than that: you avoid things that need to be dealt with even when avoiding them actively makes things worse. You're avoiding possible conflict, when the conflict will never be as bad as making yourself miserable for years. You could have been divorced in 2016, but you made excuses for not dealing with it and here you are, still making yourself unhappy while trying to protect everyone else from unhappiness. You have a right to be happy.

You can't control how other people will feel or act, you can only control yourself. All of the other people involved are adults, but you aren't treating them as adults. You are also basing your decisions on imaginary scenarios - but you can't know how someone else will feel about something you say or do, so quit wasting time thinking up endless scenarios and do what you need to do for yourself. (Side note: have you ever noticed that none of the imaginary scenarios are positive ones?)

[sonya]

Hello, I'm back. So I spoke with an attorney who warned me that I might be responsible for paying spousal support, depending on the judge I get. She said many other things that I don't even remember at the moment, but that was the main thing. I made the decision to sit down with my husband soon after the last post. It was to be on a Saturday and I would tell him I was not happy and wanted out. Friday he had a massive heart attack. It was very very bad. Three open heart surgeries, after which the surgeon just had to leave his chest open. Ten days on 100% life support - two heart pumps and the dreaded ventilator. 7 weeks in the hospital. Everyone was amazed he lived through it all. He's finally home now. My son moved back home and I come back when I can, mostly on weekends. He's still weak, but getting better. (I'm leaving out many, many medical details.) I had taken several weeks off from work, but being on unpaid medical leave, I had to return.

All this to say, that obviously my plans have been put on hold, maybe permanently, depending upon his recovery. I'm off this week so am back at the house taking care of him. My daughter is also here, so for a couple of days, it's all of us back here at the house. It's very nice being back together as a family, although they're both adults so won't last forever. Worst part is now I've got two households to support. My son is working, so helping in that department, thank goodness. I still want to sell the house - my husband would just have to come with me for the meantime. I can't send him off to his family as sick and weak as he is. I don't know if he'll ever be able to work again. I'll be looking into social security for him, at any rate. So.....new plans.....future will be very different. I do know I'm not going back to the house, though.

Can't help but think this is a Message, very strong and loud. I've come up with a few interpretations, which I've discussed with friends. Mostly I just try and take care of myself. That's all for now.

[mozar]

If he has family who can take him in, take them up on it. It doesn't matter if he's weak. I think at this point if you have to pay spousal support so be it. Since you have to support him financially anyway, you might as well be divorced.
I really hope you can end this cycle of supporting your spouse and ignoring you're own needs.

[sonya]

He's mostly still confined to the bed right now and needs care.  Home health - nurse, PT, OT, all come twice a week and his progress is steady but slow. It's best for now that my son and daughter and I take care of him until he can at least get around by himself without threat of falling. I couldn't possibly send him away before that - it's not the right thing to do. I'd never be able to live with myself.

In thinking about this more, I can see selling the house (as is, no fixing up) and he can possibly buy a house with his sister, who wants to move closer to her grandchildren. She's not happy with her living arrangements at the moment, so it could be a possibility. The two of them actually bought a house together in the past when they were single.

The lawyer did tell me that no matter what I decide to do, I should keep in touch. I will call her this week and let her know what happened.

One of these days I will, indeed, put myself first.

[Gondolin]

This is some Ethan Frome shit right here.

[frugaldrummer]

Whoa - I'm sorry for everyone involved.

It's an argument for not staying in a broken marriage. If you'd left years ago you wouldn't be in this predicament.

Sadly you'll probably have to pay spousal support. And I understand it's not the right time to abandon him this minute - that would be cruel and he IS your children's father.

If he's 62 or over he could start collecting social security. If he's younger than that he could try for SS disability but I think you have to have basically no assets in order to qualify for that, and pretty much need a lawyer because they reject everyone the first time. He can't get SDI because he wasn't working.

Do they know why he had such severe heart disease at such a young age? Diabetes, iron overload, genetically high cholesterol, rheumatoid arthritis, hypothyroidism? Make sure he gets checked for all of these. Some are very treatable and might significantly improve his health going forward.

If his mental health/depression/gambling addiction don't improve, you'll need to eventually figure out a way to separate yourself from his issues. Foisting him on his sister hardly seems fair but maybe there's something in it for her? On the other hand (and pardon me, I know this is cold) if his health is rotten you might be better off financially to wait for his eventual demise and then get all the house
equity. (Btw if you don't have wills now might be the time).

And just some framing for you - inflammation is a cause of depression and heart disease. It's possible that his mental decline was a red flag for the underlying disease process. (It's also possible that his addiction to gambling led to his heart disease as sitting is very bad for your health).

If you sell the house - get the cheap cosmetics done first (paint, cleaning up the landscaping, new carpet, and just general cleaning and staging) as that will pay off in significantly better sales price usually. I would hold off on splitting the equity until it becomes clear that he's actually going to live for a while. (Statistically about 9-10% of CABG patients will die within 5 years, more if they had high blood sugars in the post-op period. His case sounds extreme and so his risk may be higher. Being on the heart-lung bypass machine increases risk of depression afterward. )

Another factor to consider is health insurance. I presume he is covered under your work insurance right now? That's likely the best deal until he's old enough for Medicare.

[arebelspy]

How are you, sonya?

[sonya]

Hello! Just now seeing this. I promise I'll return soon and update everyone. State testing (STAAR) started today. Trying, as always, to get special ed kids to pass the same test as their non-disabled peers. State doesn't care they read two grades below their grade level. They need to pass or else. Fun. Need to rest.

[sonya]

Ok, just going to jump in.

When my husband was sent home from the hospital in October, he was instructed to get good quality exercise, he was given physical therapy twice a week for the rest of the year, until it wasn't covered anymore in January. What we didn't know was the hospital had never checked his carotids for blockage during his 7 week stay. The exercise loosened a piece of plaque in his left carotid. It went up to his brain and he had a stroke 10 weeks ago. Multiple people have told me this is probably negligence and I need to speak to a lawyer. My husband won't hear of it because he thinks the hospital will take it out on him during treatment somehow. Leaving it for now; he doesn't need the stress and neither do I, although it would be nice if we could at least get the hospital to pay for all the costs associated with this stroke.

Luckily, the stroke wasn't too bad, and last week insurance finally approved for him to have a stent put in. He is able to function pretty well, but still has problems with bp dropping suddenly. (Leaving out many medical details here.) I had to choose new marketplace insurance for him last December because of higher cost, and so he had to change doctors, etc. Not too crazy about the new plan because not too many doctors take it. But it is what it is. He has to get an EMG over his whole body to see where the stroke has affected his nervous system. This is scheduled for next week.

Another thing happened that unfortunately makes all this husband stuff pale in comparison. My son met a girl on an online dating site, they chatted a bit, he took her out to a place in a nice neighborhood, and the girl drugged his iced tea and had two thugs waiting to "help" him to his car. They kidnapped him, robbed him, and dumped him in the back seat and left his car in a very dangerous part of town. This happened in December. He went to the police and made a report, giving them the information they needed. He didn't talk much about it, and I don't push, so I didn't bug him. In February he had a nervous breakdown and ended up in a mental hospital on suicide watch. Turns out these thugs had also raped him, but he was so traumatized he didn't tell a soul. He was in the hospital for a week, and is now in twice weekly therapy and a daily dose of Zoloft. He says it's helping. Again, he still doesn't talk about things much. I ask, but he tells me what he's comfortable telling me. (We had to have family therapy while he was in the hospital, focusing on how best to help when he was discharged.) He's back at work and seems better. He took a short trip with a couple of friends last week.

On the good front, daughter is doing fine. She enjoys her science classes, as always, and does get together with friends on occasion, even though most evenings are spent at home with me. We still live at the apartment and husband and son are still at the house. She decided she doesn't have the bedside manner and mindset to be a P.A., but is still interested in medicine. She knows her grandfather (my dad), was a researcher at Merck at one time, (before eschewing the corporate world and moving us to work for the state of NY), and is considering this rather long career path.

Going forward, I want to sell the house soon. The time has to be right for me to sit everyone down and let them know this is what MOM NEEDS. I need the money from the house in a retirement account, and I need to not have to pay the bills it has. Son will be going back to school to finish his physics degree in the fall. He can come live with me and my daughter at the apartment, and my husband can move in with his brother and his wife. They have a house in a small town with lots of country, a little over an hour away. He won't be so lonely there, as brother is retired. Sis in law won't be thrilled, but I think they'll do it, at least temporarily. I can't think long term right now, just need the house emptied out. Husband has decided to take early retirement from SS, because they have been taking so long to get him the promised disability. He'll be getting $1100 a month.

A good friend of mine has offered to finance updating the house in return for a small return upon the sale. This is only if a realtor says the numbers would work. I'm leaning the other way, just to sell as is. Less time, less effort. This whole conversation will take place in the next month, when my husband will be more stable, we'll know more about his long term prognosis, and get his *%^&%## meds figured out (another long involved story). My friends know better than to rush me - I'll do things on my own time.

As for me, I'm steeling myself for this necessary conversation and the anticipated objections. Too bad - I'm tired, and I'm broke, and the house has to go, and folks need to find another place to live. My beloved apartment is too small for the four of us. It's obvious I also like my husband MUCH better when I just see him on the weekends. He would hate the apartment anyway. It's in a bad part of town. Ok, starting to ramble.

That's it for now. Thanks, ARS, for checking in. :)