Author Topic: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!  (Read 16291 times)

MrMoogle

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2016, 03:16:00 PM »
Ugh.  I don't know what to tell you.  My 10 year old is very bright and a *little* lazy. I hope it doesn't come to this.

I don't know if it works the same way in the sates, but here in Canada, the size of classes went up significantly over time and the variance of intellectual capacity within a class is also fairly wide. They call it "nivellement vers le bas".

Students that are fast learners often get bored because the class pace is not enough to keep them interested. I can see how "laziness" could come out in such an environment.
This and what Malum Prohibitum describes is how I was/am.  I didn't have scaling (well except in AP courses, and college), and was required to get mostly A's, but I basically figured out what I needed to do to get a 90, then get that, and no more.  It annoyed my father to no end.  "But you can get 100's in these classes!"  What's the benefit to me?  It was sort of the mustachian in me, it's wasted effort to get 100s when I could spend a quarter of the time and get 90s and get the same gpa. 

I spent my first 5 years or so in my career, working to get that 100, but people barely passing were getting the same raises.  So now, I spend a quarter of my effort, and get that 90, and have a better work-life balance because of it.  I still get great reviews, all my customers say I do good work, and still get the same raises.

MgoSam

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2016, 03:36:59 PM »
Guses, that makes sense.

It's simply nature to put in the minimal amount of effort to get what you want. You could argue that going above and beyond is counterproductive as it means taking time and energy away from something else (opportunity cost).

Fishindude

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2016, 03:55:27 PM »
Our construction company really struggles with hiring.  We badly need to hire and retain some good young people to bring down th average age of our workforce which is getting out of hand.   We pay an average of $20 per hour with great benefits including; overtime opportunities, a hefty 401K match, health insurance, wellness program, paid vacations & holidays, uniforms, travel pay and mileage pay, bonus opportunities, etc.   We start out very green employees at $14 and try to work them up as quickly as possible.

You need to look decent, pass a drug test (also random), have some basic reading and math skills, show up on time every day and have a good attitude, and be willing to purchase your hand tools.  We will teach the trades and you can go as far as you want with it, many make in excess of $70K annually, some supervision over $100K.

We struggle to find these young folks, the drug tests and interviews wash out a large percentage, and many just quit in first couple weeks for a variety of reasons.   I've concluded that the biggest problems are poor parenting and never making children work and earn money, plus all of the government handouts that allow people to live pretty decently without working.

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2016, 07:42:42 PM »
I have a similar story to share.  It is close to home. 

One of my children is extremely bright, gifted classes, but lazy.  I hate to admit that, but it is true.  He quite simply refused to learn algebra (he was in the "gifted" algebra class).  I did not know there was a problem until several weeks in, and I did what I could to rectify the situation.  I purchased an old textbook, I had him work online, and so on . . . we spent several hours a day going over things. 

He was fighting me every step of the way.

He failed the class.

When I told him he was going to have to retake the class, he smiled and confidently asserted that he had not failed the class.  As I explained his dismal grade to him, he countered with a statement that "they" told him his is going to take a test online, and it will bump his overall test score by 20 points so that he passes (maybe this is something similar to what Mrs. Pete was describing?).

My anger burned within me, but I tried to stay calm as I told him that would not be happening.  He seemed shocked and did not understand, telling me this is the way the school does it.

So over the weeks off at Christmas we spend two hours daily in the algebra textbook, starting at page 1.

On the first day of school, when there was somebody available to answer the phone, I calmly informed them that they would give my son only the grade he had earned and deserved, which is an F.  This started a three week long fight with the administration.  They quite simply did NOT want to fail him but pass him on as if he had learned the stuff in the course.  I explained over and over that the Christmas break had taught me that my son did not know even the most basic algebra concepts at the beginning of the book.

Finally they agreed to fail him and put him in another algebra class (the "advanced" instead of "gifted," whatever that means).

But the lady who did the assignments held a grudge and waited until the class was a month old before my son could start, and even this was only because of my daily pestering and working my way up the chain of command.

Thankfully, the delay did not hurt him, as I continued working with him in the textbook daily so that he was ahead of where the class was when he started.

The shock of failing woke him up.  He, all of a sudden, was getting straight As in the course and actually studying.  Unfortunately, this lasted only for the first half of the semester, when he figured out his grade was so close to 100 that he could just "cruise" the rest of the semester.  His grade started a long, slow slide until the end of the class, when he ended up with a B still (due to rampant grade inflation).

Even now, he turns in classwork late constantly.  The teachers grade it even three weeks late and give him a score of 100%.  What the hell is that lesson going to do for him later in life?

 He gets pretty much straight Bs with no effort.  If a grade drops to a C he tries a little harder for a while until it is a B again and then starts coasting.  He will not try hard enough to get an overall A.  It seems when a course does have an A grade he starts coasting in that course. It's like an A is a signal to start being lazy again.

The punishments I have created seem to have no effect.  Only the F had an effect, and even that lasted only for the first half of the next semester, until he figured out he could pass with an above average score without really trying (hey, EVERYBODY is above average).

For my son, if they would grade things without grade inflation and hold students accountable for late scores, I think he would perform to a much higher standard.

Having run into such animosity, however, for insisting that they fail him in algebra, it made me scared to insist that these teachers hold students to a higher standard.  I truly fear they would resent it and take their resentment out on my son in whatever petty ways they could.

Wow that's awful.  My guess is that it has something to do with new incentives for teachers and schools.  You get more money for your district, or you're a teacher and you get a personal bonus for student performance.  Seems like a really great way to increase teacher performance.  Except what you're describing is the unintended consequence.
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russianswinga

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2016, 03:48:54 PM »

Having run into such animosity, however, for insisting that they fail him in algebra, it made me scared to insist that these teachers hold students to a higher standard.  I truly fear they would resent it and take their resentment out on my son in whatever petty ways they could.

I have a solution to your algebra problem. I was the EXACT same way in high school - bright enough for A's with no effort, but lazy enough that my grades were B's (or C's, and I'd pull them up with AP exams - our school had a policy that if you passed an AP exam, even with a score of 3 out of 5, you get an A for the semester in the class)

What woke me up QUICK was college (university). When the entire population is at least as smart as you, and the laziness that previously got you a B now is not enough even for a D grade, you fail FAST and learn to study FAST.

If you want to bring this "down" to high school or middle school, most high schools allow you to take classes off-campus at a local community college, free. When it comes time for Calculus, or Advanced Calculus, instead of doing the class on-campus at school, talk to the councilors about letting your kid take the class at the local community college.
- NO tolerance for late homework. 10 mins late - grade of 0
- NO curvnig. 89.99% grade in the class is a B. Not a B+, not an A-, no extra credit. You get a fat, solid B
- NO retaking for a better grade - in HS, I did not like a C grade I got once. I retook the course, coasted through it, and got an A, this replaced the C on my transcript. In community college, they average the two. If you take the class once and fail, take it again and get an A, your average grade is a C.


scottish

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2016, 09:27:40 AM »
Our 17 year old was much the same when he was younger.    All of his friends are trying to get into 'good' universities & the entrance requirements are pretty competitive.     He's been working harder every year because he doesn't want to be left behind.

On the down side he's pretty stressed about it.    His study habits are only so so after years of coasting.

Better now than later.

jinga nation

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2016, 10:42:48 AM »
After 9/11, The American DreamTM was claimed to be dead for any legal immigrant holding a permanent resident card or foreign graduate students on student visas. And yet, when I and many of my engineering college alumni get together annually, we toast to America. Most of us are from various parts of Africa and Central & South America. We had to to take shitty first jobs, work our way up through hard work, fur ther study, etc. But we've made it, and we're still here.
(My engineering grad school was full of "imports", they're the only suckers willing to work for $10/hour for 20 hours a week and free tuition.)
I've seen this shit before, I ain't falling for it again. Fuck you, MainStreamMedia. All about chasing them eyeballs and $$$.
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infogoon

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2016, 11:08:34 AM »
I'm excited to see scholarships like GA's hope mentioned here (I wrote a Ph.D. thesis about them about a decade ago). Indeed they DO make college cheaper for about the 35% of HS graduates who qualify. But many of these would be attending college anyway (usually about 70% of HS graduates attend some type of post-secondary education, perhaps half of those complete a BA).

more than twenty other states have something like this program. But it's often tied to need (like in Indiana).

We have a similar program here in Buffalo -- http://sayyesbuffalo.org/. Students who graduate from public or charter high schools in the city can go to state universities (or a sampling of privates that have signed on) for free.

infogoon

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2016, 11:19:28 AM »
It sounds like it's pretty hard to find unskilled entry level employees who can pass a drug test.

I suppose the next question would be -- why do you care if they can pass a drug test? If you're not screening for alcohol or tobacco use, why are you screening for marijuana? It seems like a restriction to the hiring pool for no good reason.

cheapass

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2016, 01:33:32 PM »
We have a similar program here in Buffalo -- http://sayyesbuffalo.org/. Students who graduate from public or charter high schools in the city can go to state universities (or a sampling of privates that have signed on) for free.

Well, not exactly "free", it's paid for by money that is forcibly removed from taxpayers, right?
Every single decision you make with money either shortens or lengthens your working career.

cheapass

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2016, 01:35:19 PM »
It sounds like it's pretty hard to find unskilled entry level employees who can pass a drug test.

I suppose the next question would be -- why do you care if they can pass a drug test? If you're not screening for alcohol or tobacco use, why are you screening for marijuana? It seems like a restriction to the hiring pool for no good reason.

Liability for one. If someone is driving a company vehicle and causes major property damage or kills someone, the insurance company would much prefer that that person wasn't a drug user and the company could produce records that they did their due dilligence. I'd imagine the company pays lower insurance premiums if they drug test.
Every single decision you make with money either shortens or lengthens your working career.

infogoon

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #61 on: December 21, 2016, 01:36:02 PM »
We have a similar program here in Buffalo -- http://sayyesbuffalo.org/. Students who graduate from public or charter high schools in the city can go to state universities (or a sampling of privates that have signed on) for free.

Well, not exactly "free", it's paid for by money that is forcibly removed from taxpayers, right?

No.

The organization helps students apply to colleges, fill out their FAFSA, apply for standard scholarships, etc. Any remaining financial obligation is covered by the Say Yes organization, which is privately funded by donors.

Making Cookies

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #62 on: December 21, 2016, 01:36:59 PM »
It sounds like it's pretty hard to find unskilled entry level employees who can pass a drug test.

I suppose the next question would be -- why do you care if they can pass a drug test? If you're not screening for alcohol or tobacco use, why are you screening for marijuana? It seems like a restriction to the hiring pool for no good reason.

I had a conversation with someone who teaches trade schools. Same problems with a sizable number of the students. Drugs.

Her said many of them have jobs waiting for them if they want then but they can't keep their lives in order.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 02:19:05 PM by Making Cookies »

cheapass

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #63 on: December 21, 2016, 01:37:04 PM »
Wow that's awful.  My guess is that it has something to do with new incentives for teachers and schools.  You get more money for your district, or you're a teacher and you get a personal bonus for student performance.  Seems like a really great way to increase teacher performance.  Except what you're describing is the unintended consequence.

I'm getting sick of this "participation trophies for everyone! everybody's a winner, regardless of the results you achieve!" shit
Every single decision you make with money either shortens or lengthens your working career.

cheapass

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #64 on: December 21, 2016, 01:38:37 PM »
No.

The organization helps students apply to colleges, fill out their FAFSA, apply for standard scholarships, etc. Any remaining financial obligation is covered by the Say Yes organization, which is privately funded by donors.

Well that's not too horrible then (except for the FAFSA part)
Every single decision you make with money either shortens or lengthens your working career.

Guses

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #65 on: December 21, 2016, 02:41:20 PM »
We have a similar program here in Buffalo -- http://sayyesbuffalo.org/. Students who graduate from public or charter high schools in the city can go to state universities (or a sampling of privates that have signed on) for free.

Well, not exactly "free", it's paid for by money that is forcibly removed from taxpayers, right?

In the quoted context, "free" is the proper word to use.

Tasty Pinecones

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2017, 08:04:56 AM »
I have a similar story to share.  It is close to home. 

One of my children is extremely bright, gifted classes, but lazy.  I hate to admit that, but it is true.  He quite simply refused to learn algebra (he was in the "gifted" algebra class).  I did not know there was a problem until several weeks in, and I did what I could to rectify the situation.  I purchased an old textbook, I had him work online, and so on . . . we spent several hours a day going over things. 

He was fighting me every step of the way...."

Mine figured out that he could just slide by all year and then take summer school that was so damn easy he could do it with his brain tied behind his back. He was the star worker at his summer job but something about his school - or the kids - or the teachers there - that has crushed any urge to make good grades.

They let the students turn in work weeks late, retake tests or quizzes, and more or less make life easy.

Contrast that to DW and my education in the 80s where there were no second chances and frankly not much help except from your parents at night when we were doing our homework.

I have a professor friend and he tells how these same students reach college with expectations that there will be second and third chances, flexible deadlines, etc. 

Malum Prohibitum

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2017, 10:42:42 AM »
I have a professor friend and he tells how these same students reach college with expectations that there will be second and third chances, flexible deadlines, etc.
  That's what I'm worried about.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2017, 02:16:12 PM »
I'll just ignore the flame wars with bold and red letters and add a few notes:

1) "The cost of college" is not any one thing. Kids with good grades can go for nearly free in many states. Kids who go to state college and pick up community college credits pay a crap ton less than kids attending Prestige University. Also, many people lump in the cost of housing, food, and transport into this number, all of which are partly choice. So "the cost" is anywhere from zero to maybe $100k/y depending largely on one's choices.The question is, why not choose the lower cost?

2) Has no one yet noticed the irony of griping about young people's work ethics on a site dedicated to finding ways not to work? Are young people supposed to be highly motivated to work $10/h jobs so they can lease luxury SUVs? But not us? Perhaps the reality is Millenials are less wasteful than previous generations, which allows them to work less. Perhaps we wouldn't go back and trade the adventures, romances, and freedom we experienced in our 20s for $10/h.

3) Academic success is not motivated by visions of being successful in some vague future, it's motivated by daily praise and encouragememt from parents, teachers, and family. It's motivated by personal pride and a sense of identity. You have to be taught to think "YES!!!" when you get an A, rather than just seeing an alphabet character. As a parent, you'll never make the case for why writing the best report on the 30 Years War the teacher has ever seen will lead to a lifetime of riches. But you can teach your kid to take pride in their acheivements.

4) Grade inflation and the passing of poor students is a direct result of misinformed parents. Parents shop for schools with the highest grades and lowest dropout rates, which are the grade inflators. Parents raise hell when their kids get the crappy grades they deserve. Parents reward politicians who threaten "failing" schools with principled principals. Finally, parents are the ones who fail to ensure their kids show up ready and eager to learn. They think they can outsource all that. Hell, our day care teachers say the parents expect them to potty train toddlers, with zero parental involvement!

khizr

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2017, 12:21:47 PM »
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/12/09/income-american-dream-kids/95190206/

I'm glad I finally learned that the 'American Dream' is making more than your Father.  (Note, not Mother, as that wasn't 'polled' :S )

For a long time, owning an albatross house is what we were supposed to strive for.  Well thankfully we have a much better target now!

If Dad started a successful company or similar, you're pretty much damned...

It will be hard for millennials to make more than me unless they benefited from nepotism.  I had to work full time to get my BA in accounting and then 10 years later with 2 kids get my MBA at night.  I worked 12 hours a day and commuted two hours a day for 43 years.  Yeah I made a lot of money but what Millennial is willing to work as hard as I did.
You could not be any more stereotypical and you response lacks an understanding of economics and the changing reality of labor versus capital over the last 30 years. Oh but I guess since you did it that means everyone else is lazy and you are just super special. Thanks for being so amazing while all us lazy millennials hangout and post selfies...

mbk

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2017, 01:09:45 PM »
I have a similar story to share.  It is close to home. 

One of my children is extremely bright, gifted classes, but lazy.  I hate to admit that, but it is true.  He quite simply refused to learn algebra (he was in the "gifted" algebra class).  I did not know there was a problem until several weeks in, and I did what I could to rectify the situation.  I purchased an old textbook, I had him work online, and so on . . . we spent several hours a day going over things. 

He was fighting me every step of the way...."

Mine figured out that he could just slide by all year and then take summer school that was so damn easy he could do it with his brain tied behind his back. He was the star worker at his summer job but something about his school - or the kids - or the teachers there - that has crushed any urge to make good grades.

They let the students turn in work weeks late, retake tests or quizzes, and more or less make life easy.

Contrast that to DW and my education in the 80s where there were no second chances and frankly not much help except from your parents at night when we were doing our homework.

I have a professor friend and he tells how these same students reach college with expectations that there will be second and third chances, flexible deadlines, etc.

During my PhD, I was TA for some undergraduate physics classes in a southwest state university. The math and science aptitude of so many students  was so low, I used to wonder how they got to college in the first place. On one lab exam I graded (my first time in US), I practically gave everyone 0's. Then all the students complained to the course instructor and he had to explain to me that in US students expect a C just for turning their answer sheet in! Teaching science to undergraduates was no fun because very few came with the required minimal training.

scottish

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2017, 01:17:23 PM »
Really?   A C just for submitting something?

Is it now like this at all US universities?   

Lagom

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2017, 01:31:06 PM »
Really?   A C just for submitting something?

Is it now like this at all US universities?   

No, but the prestige of the university does not necessarily indicate the likelihood of this behavior. Indeed, many of the most prestigious American universities are notorious for grade inflation.

neverrun

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2017, 06:40:40 PM »
I have a professor friend and he tells how these same students reach college with expectations that there will be second and third chances, flexible deadlines, etc.
  That's what I'm worried about.

Most of the department for the HS my Dad taught at decided to be remedial level adjunct part time professors after they retired.  They seem to truly enjoy telling students no you can't retake the test.  The solution to you not passing this class it to take it next semester.  I'm guessing they could not say these things at the end of their HS teaching careers but really wished they could.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2017, 07:11:52 PM »
It sounds like it's pretty hard to find unskilled entry level employees who can pass a drug test.

I suppose the next question would be -- why do you care if they can pass a drug test? If you're not screening for alcohol or tobacco use, why are you screening for marijuana? It seems like a restriction to the hiring pool for no good reason.
The marijuana test is to screen out the people with such shit impulse control that they can't stop smoking for a couple days even though they're told in advance that there will be a drug test. It doesn't discriminate against all smokers, just the stupid ones.

Coincidentally, I have a certain amount of THC in my body right now. Many highly successful people do too.

radicaledward

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #75 on: January 16, 2017, 08:33:51 AM »
No, but the prestige of the university does not necessarily indicate the likelihood of this behavior. Indeed, many of the most prestigious American universities are notorious for grade inflation.
It's a bit more complicated than that. I attended a prestigious T10 university for my Masters and talked to a couple professors about undergraduate grade inflation. Generally the professors said that the problem is when you take a pool of the "best and brightest" students and have well defined requirements for what mastery of a subject is (i.e. an A or A- grade) having a lot of students getting A's is to be expected. In short, they were arguing that it's not grade inflation if the students are actually earning their grade. At that point you are starting to get into pedagogical philosophy for if you should strict curve (i.e. grades are based upon overall class performance) for grades, or if grades are based upon individual performance.

This is also part of the reason why grades start to get meaningless in graduate school for PhD students. The professors pretty much assume you can learn the material to a satisfactory point - what you are actually learning is how to do research which can't really be taught in a class. So as long as you are hitting the department standards for coursework grades (ex. "B's make PhD's!") nobody really cares about your grades. In some cases your transcript might just be a string of A's since grades lower than that are a signal that you need to rethink your enrollment. In other cases, it's just a string of P's (Pass) since they want you focused on research, not mastering coursework.

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #76 on: January 16, 2017, 08:57:10 AM »
Our construction company really struggles with hiring.  We badly need to hire and retain some good young people to bring down th average age of our workforce which is getting out of hand.   We pay an average of $20 per hour with great benefits including; overtime opportunities, a hefty 401K match, health insurance, wellness program, paid vacations & holidays, uniforms, travel pay and mileage pay, bonus opportunities, etc.   We start out very green employees at $14 and try to work them up as quickly as possible.

You need to look decent, pass a drug test (also random), have some basic reading and math skills, show up on time every day and have a good attitude, and be willing to purchase your hand tools.  We will teach the trades and you can go as far as you want with it, many make in excess of $70K annually, some supervision over $100K.

We struggle to find these young folks, the drug tests and interviews wash out a large percentage, and many just quit in first couple weeks for a variety of reasons.   I've concluded that the biggest problems are poor parenting and never making children work and earn money, plus all of the government handouts that allow people to live pretty decently without working.

Hell, I want to come work for you lol.   I'd kill to get paid to learn trades.

Lagom

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2017, 11:38:14 AM »
No, but the prestige of the university does not necessarily indicate the likelihood of this behavior. Indeed, many of the most prestigious American universities are notorious for grade inflation.
It's a bit more complicated than that. I attended a prestigious T10 university for my Masters and talked to a couple professors about undergraduate grade inflation. Generally the professors said that the problem is when you take a pool of the "best and brightest" students and have well defined requirements for what mastery of a subject is (i.e. an A or A- grade) having a lot of students getting A's is to be expected. In short, they were arguing that it's not grade inflation if the students are actually earning their grade. At that point you are starting to get into pedagogical philosophy for if you should strict curve (i.e. grades are based upon overall class performance) for grades, or if grades are based upon individual performance.

This is also part of the reason why grades start to get meaningless in graduate school for PhD students. The professors pretty much assume you can learn the material to a satisfactory point - what you are actually learning is how to do research which can't really be taught in a class. So as long as you are hitting the department standards for coursework grades (ex. "B's make PhD's!") nobody really cares about your grades. In some cases your transcript might just be a string of A's since grades lower than that are a signal that you need to rethink your enrollment. In other cases, it's just a string of P's (Pass) since they want you focused on research, not mastering coursework.

This is true at some institutions but also only one data point. I assure you grade inflation is a very real thing at others. In the course of my job I have interacted with professors and grad students at a decent number of top tier universities and many of them openly admit their curriculum is less rigorous and/or grading more generous than it should be due to political pressure from campus leadership/mega donors.

BDWW

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #78 on: January 16, 2017, 12:36:20 PM »
It sounds like it's pretty hard to find unskilled entry level employees who can pass a drug test.

I suppose the next question would be -- why do you care if they can pass a drug test? If you're not screening for alcohol or tobacco use, why are you screening for marijuana? It seems like a restriction to the hiring pool for no good reason.
The marijuana test is to screen out the people with such shit impulse control that they can't stop smoking for a couple days even though they're told in advance that there will be a drug test. It doesn't discriminate against all smokers, just the stupid ones.

Coincidentally, I have a certain amount of THC in my body right now. Many highly successful people do too.

Companies also use it to get rid of employees without as much paperwork. I know at least two companies that do this(not officially of course).  Somehow a "rumor" of upcoming drug tests gets mentioned to the good employees, but not to the undesirables. Voila, these employees failed the "random" drug test, and now can be canned at will.

MgoSam

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2017, 01:00:14 PM »
It sounds like it's pretty hard to find unskilled entry level employees who can pass a drug test.

I suppose the next question would be -- why do you care if they can pass a drug test? If you're not screening for alcohol or tobacco use, why are you screening for marijuana? It seems like a restriction to the hiring pool for no good reason.
The marijuana test is to screen out the people with such shit impulse control that they can't stop smoking for a couple days even though they're told in advance that there will be a drug test. It doesn't discriminate against all smokers, just the stupid ones.

Coincidentally, I have a certain amount of THC in my body right now. Many highly successful people do too.

Depending on the type of test (urine vs hair), THC can stay in your system for far longer than a few days, but yeah if it is a one-time pee test than it is just stupid that they either can't go without for a few days (heck save up for stash for a celebration once you get the job) or buy some synthetic/fake urine.

In addition to weeding out (see what I did there) applicants that lack motivation or drive, having employees that are on drugs can cause problems with insurance/liability. A guy in my warehouse smokes and could easily get a job with a few trucking companies but won't stop smoking. The pay there is much  better than it is here plus they have greater benefits and stability, but he won't do it and it is his choice (I'm happy to have him here). If it were a one-time test I'm sure he would do it, but the company can test you any time they want. A good friend is a driver with USPS and says they can test you on the spot without any warning, and that if you get an a collision of any kind a drug test is automatic.

My two cents: drug testing for week is silly when an employee with an alcohol problem is likely going to cause more issues at work. But of course, I can't think of any ways for a workplace to test that.

catherinekilljoy

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #80 on: February 27, 2017, 06:47:03 PM »
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/12/09/income-american-dream-kids/95190206/

I'm glad I finally learned that the 'American Dream' is making more than your Father.  (Note, not Mother, as that wasn't 'polled' :S )

For a long time, owning an albatross house is what we were supposed to strive for.  Well thankfully we have a much better target now!

If Dad started a successful company or similar, you're pretty much damned...

It will be hard for millennials to make more than me unless they benefited from nepotism.  I had to work full time to get my BA in accounting and then 10 years later with 2 kids get my MBA at night.  I worked 12 hours a day and commuted two hours a day for 43 years.  Yeah I made a lot of money but what Millennial is willing to work as hard as I did.

I feel like that's a little condescending. I worked two jobs one night and the other a six hour midday, while biking 2-10 miles to and from. Joined the army to pay for school. So here's one millennial.


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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #81 on: February 28, 2017, 05:54:13 AM »
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/12/09/income-american-dream-kids/95190206/

I'm glad I finally learned that the 'American Dream' is making more than your Father.  (Note, not Mother, as that wasn't 'polled' :S )

For a long time, owning an albatross house is what we were supposed to strive for.  Well thankfully we have a much better target now!

If Dad started a successful company or similar, you're pretty much damned...

It will be hard for millennials to make more than me unless they benefited from nepotism.  I had to work full time to get my BA in accounting and then 10 years later with 2 kids get my MBA at night.  I worked 12 hours a day and commuted two hours a day for 43 years.  Yeah I made a lot of money but what Millennial is willing to work as hard as I did.

I feel like that's a little condescending. I worked two jobs one night and the other a six hour midday, while biking 2-10 miles to and from. Joined the army to pay for school. So here's one millennial.


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Generalizations on millennials are harsh. I know hard working ones and slackers too. Every generation has these. Just because you don't see millennials busting ass doing manual labor doesn't mean they don't work hard. They may be writing code, working in digital marketing chasing customers, healthcare data analytics, or a nascent technology. Many are in the military working on cyber defense projects. Joke about it, but these young kids are smart with novel ideas.
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Kaminoge

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #82 on: February 28, 2017, 08:17:31 AM »
They let the students turn in work weeks late, retake tests or quizzes, and more or less make life easy.

I'm a teacher in a good (and expensive) school (not in the US). I do all of the above. I HATE it. I think we're doing our students a huge disservice for all the reasons people are mentioning. High school is the perfect time to let kids fail as a consequence of their choices because the stakes are so much lower than they will be later in life. But the trend in education right now is not to hold kids accountable. I am not allowed to give zeros and not allowed to penalize late work and the kids know this so of course they take advantage.

All of this makes a lot more work for me. Rather than grading all the homework at once I have to put up with it trickling in over the course of weeks and then a big surge right before the end of the trimester. Every time I give a test I need to write a retake test as well. It drives me crazy!

But I like my job. I'm not quitting over it. I complain and regularly mention I disagree with the grading policy (I'm hardly alone). I look for ways of getting around it (making sure retake tests are harder than the original test can help) or at least minimizing the impact on me personally. But it still drives me crazy.

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #83 on: February 28, 2017, 09:30:28 AM »
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/12/09/income-american-dream-kids/95190206/

I'm glad I finally learned that the 'American Dream' is making more than your Father.  (Note, not Mother, as that wasn't 'polled' :S )

For a long time, owning an albatross house is what we were supposed to strive for.  Well thankfully we have a much better target now!

If Dad started a successful company or similar, you're pretty much damned...

It will be hard for millennials to make more than me unless they benefited from nepotism.  I had to work full time to get my BA in accounting and then 10 years later with 2 kids get my MBA at night.  I worked 12 hours a day and commuted two hours a day for 43 years.  Yeah I made a lot of money but what Millennial is willing to work as hard as I did.

I feel like that's a little condescending. I worked two jobs one night and the other a six hour midday, while biking 2-10 miles to and from. Joined the army to pay for school. So here's one millennial.


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Generalizations on millennials are harsh. I know hard working ones and slackers too. Every generation has these. Just because you don't see millennials busting ass doing manual labor doesn't mean they don't work hard. They may be writing code, working in digital marketing chasing customers, healthcare data analytics, or a nascent technology. Many are in the military working on cyber defense projects. Joke about it, but these young kids are smart with novel ideas.

Criticizing the younger generation is an age old past time for older generations. I (Millennial) worked full time while going to college full time so I could graduate debt free. In addition to that I owned my own home and my son was born at the beginning of my junior year. Meanwhile, my dad and mom have plenty of friends (boomers) that smoked pot and drank beer their entire lives and "retired" in their 40s by being approved for disability. There are losers in every generation.

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #84 on: February 28, 2017, 10:58:00 AM »
Quote
This is true at some institutions but also only one data point. I assure you grade inflation is a very real thing at others.

So true. I thank my lucky stars that I ended up in a sub-college where washing out 10-15% of the freshmen class was a point of pride. Strict curve grading for the first 2 years. The super-geniuses still got A's and the rest of us got a quick wakeup that we weren't going to be able to sleepwalk through college like we did in high school.
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maizeman

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #85 on: February 28, 2017, 11:32:49 AM »
Quote
This is true at some institutions but also only one data point. I assure you grade inflation is a very real thing at others.

So true. I thank my lucky stars that I ended up in a sub-college where washing out 10-15% of the freshmen class was a point of pride. Strict curve grading for the first 2 years. The super-geniuses still got A's and the rest of us got a quick wakeup that we weren't going to be able to sleepwalk through college like we did in high school.

Yup. School I was at also rejoiced in a reputation for being relatively easy to get admitted too, but quite difficult to graduate from. (30+% attrition in my freshman dorm, though I think that was a statistical outlier.)

I was grateful to have gotten Bs and even the occasional C in HS, so I didn't have the same moral crisis as the folks who were used to getting straight As each and every semester before they got there.
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Hargrove

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #86 on: February 28, 2017, 02:00:34 PM »
Every millennial at my company works 60-80 hours a week, and that's half the workforce.

They get fired pretty often for not doing things they don't even get paid to do, and grilled constantly about many things. Some suspect it's just so that management has something to fire them for. I don't understand why management in America has gone this way, but I'm talking about people growing sales not 5% or 10%, but 15%, 20%, 30% and getting written up over trivialities. An old vet got a trophy for employee of the year month 1 and was fired month 2 for not visiting, weekly, an account that ordered something once or twice a year (so he was told). Few expect to make a career out of their, uh, careers, at least in my age bracket, because "human resources" are so rampantly undervalued. I don't mean hard workers aren't desired. They get fired more slowly (after they burn out from being always demanded more more more irrespective of results). That's not the same as "valued," though. I greatly admire and respect everyone who started their own businesses with a goal of doing well by their employees. I wish, however, that was more common.

We also have a real problem passing people who shouldn't pass in schools, who learn that everything works out whether they try or not, and then many work environments are the opposite extreme. It's like being screamed at "YOU'RE AN INFINITELY SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE!" for 12-16 years and then being screamed at "YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL IN ANY WAY AND WE WILL REPLACE YOU LIKE A HURRICANE REPLACES COWS!" immediately thereafter.

Can you imagine how confusing it is to live life that way? How ill-suited the product of one is the for the other's world? Is this on the "lazy" kids or the adults teaching them? We say we don't want this environment but once Junior gets an F the parents climb into the Humvee and parallel park by the front door to lay down the rules about their perfect angels.

Then we have a real problem telling our hard workers they have no right to expect good rewards for hard work. It's great that tech pays well but not everybody is in tech. No, you can't just "switch to tech then" because the more switch to tech, the more who are trying will get rejected, and those still have bills to pay. It needs to be ok that not everyone is a tech genius.

The drumbeat of American schools is that you work hard and go to college so you don't work at Starbucks. Then you graduate and you're at a Starbucks and you're a bit confused, sad, scared maybe even, disappointed perhaps. It's not a horrendous job by any means, but yet, literally all your mentors said this was the terrible thing to work hard to avoid. It doesn't hurt to pick up a college salary, but no one talks about the unemployment rates of college grads. Then the "adults" mock these people for having no work ethic when they seem down about their Starbucks job that they worked hard to avoid by doing what they were told. These kids were taught to be down about the jobs they got.

So after years of 5 hours of homework a night, you may wind up pretty pissed about it all, or maybe you won't even do the work in the first place. Most on this forum get good returns from their labor, I would think, but it's myopic to not realize a merit scholarship won is 8-100 more students who didn't win who have to do something else. A business started and successful is one of many more that failed. Those people still exist and still have bills to pay.

There should be a searchable database with DoL figures showing how many job openings are estimated in a field, how many degrees were awarded that year IN THAT FIELD, and starter salaries for those fields, and a notice should be given with all college application paperwork on how to access that database. We would have far fewer philosophy and ancient history majors, and far fewer shellshocked graduates working at Starbucks. Then we could stop throwing lower-wage jobs under the bus in high-school, and teach finance and the risks and rewards of higher education (dependent on major), and decouple school funding from college-bound student-counts so we could occasionally mention carpentry or plumbing, too.

WGH

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #87 on: February 28, 2017, 02:45:30 PM »
The drumbeat of American schools is that you work hard and go to college so you don't work at Starbucks.

Then we could stop throwing lower-wage jobs under the bus in high-school, and teach finance and the risks and rewards of higher education (dependent on major), and decouple school funding from college-bound student-counts so we could occasionally mention carpentry or plumbing, too.

Agree and good post. Except when I was growing up in the 80s I was told to work hard and go to college or I would end up digging ditches. Anyone else hear that one? I am sure I was not alone. So you have a generation taught to go to college and get a REAL job and that blue collar work like construction, manufacturing, plumbing, carpentry means you were a failure.

And now are we surprised that millenials do not want to work blue collar jobs when they were told their whole lives what a disgrace that would be? So no I am not surprised that they are failing out at entry level even with good pay and benefits. It's not the work it's the stigma attached. Having to go and tell your friends that yes you in fact dug a ditch today. To tell your blind date that while she is a software engineer you spent your day working on septic tanks.

Millenials are no lazier or entitled than previous generations. It's just they were all told to go to college or be failures. So how do we reteach them that nope we were just kidding digging ditches is a perfectly fine vocation?




ChpBstrd

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #88 on: February 28, 2017, 08:01:03 PM »
The drumbeat of American schools is that you work hard and go to college so you don't work at Starbucks.

Then we could stop throwing lower-wage jobs under the bus in high-school, and teach finance and the risks and rewards of higher education (dependent on major), and decouple school funding from college-bound student-counts so we could occasionally mention carpentry or plumbing, too.

Agree and good post. Except when I was growing up in the 80s I was told to work hard and go to college or I would end up digging ditches. Anyone else hear that one? I am sure I was not alone. So you have a generation taught to go to college and get a REAL job and that blue collar work like construction, manufacturing, plumbing, carpentry means you were a failure.

And now are we surprised that millenials do not want to work blue collar jobs when they were told their whole lives what a disgrace that would be? So no I am not surprised that they are failing out at entry level even with good pay and benefits. It's not the work it's the stigma attached. Having to go and tell your friends that yes you in fact dug a ditch today. To tell your blind date that while she is a software engineer you spent your day working on septic tanks.

Millenials are no lazier or entitled than previous generations. It's just they were all told to go to college or be failures. So how do we reteach them that nope we were just kidding digging ditches is a perfectly fine vocation?

It's not a perfectly fine vocation. The day you slip a disk carrying a bag of concrete your employer fires you. Then COBRA runs out while you wait to get on disability. Then you're 35 with no marketable skills and a long term injury you can't treat. It's arguably worse when this happens at 55.

Some of us observed this as one of our parents' life lessons. Everyone is choosing the chronic, long-term injuries of office work instead of the acute, immediate injuries of physical labor.

talltexan

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #89 on: March 01, 2017, 09:02:50 AM »
The drumbeat of American schools is that you work hard and go to college so you don't work at Starbucks.

Then we could stop throwing lower-wage jobs under the bus in high-school, and teach finance and the risks and rewards of higher education (dependent on major), and decouple school funding from college-bound student-counts so we could occasionally mention carpentry or plumbing, too.

Agree and good post. Except when I was growing up in the 80s I was told to work hard and go to college or I would end up digging ditches. Anyone else hear that one? I am sure I was not alone. So you have a generation taught to go to college and get a REAL job and that blue collar work like construction, manufacturing, plumbing, carpentry means you were a failure.

And now are we surprised that millenials do not want to work blue collar jobs when they were told their whole lives what a disgrace that would be? So no I am not surprised that they are failing out at entry level even with good pay and benefits. It's not the work it's the stigma attached. Having to go and tell your friends that yes you in fact dug a ditch today. To tell your blind date that while she is a software engineer you spent your day working on septic tanks.

Millenials are no lazier or entitled than previous generations. It's just they were all told to go to college or be failures. So how do we reteach them that nope we were just kidding digging ditches is a perfectly fine vocation?

It's not a perfectly fine vocation. The day you slip a disk carrying a bag of concrete your employer fires you. Then COBRA runs out while you wait to get on disability. Then you're 35 with no marketable skills and a long term injury you can't treat. It's arguably worse when this happens at 55.

Some of us observed this as one of our parents' life lessons. Everyone is choosing the chronic, long-term injuries of office work instead of the acute, immediate injuries of physical labor.

I do not dispute these claims, ChpBstrd (although we have many differences of opinion), but this is part of the narrative that lends our Mustachian lifestyle so much power: by establishing a lower baseline lifestyle, we shorten the career that produces the type of chronic injuries you describe.

infogoon

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #90 on: March 01, 2017, 02:28:07 PM »
Some of us observed this as one of our parents' life lessons. Everyone is choosing the chronic, long-term injuries of office work instead of the acute, immediate injuries of physical labor.

Additional life lesson: we all grew up watching our parents' generation go through massive layoffs and thousands of people losing their jobs through no fault of our own. Then employers wonder why we're not "loyal".

Pigeon

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #91 on: March 02, 2017, 08:16:03 AM »
DH is a public high school teacher. He is absolutely under pressure from administrators to pass students, no matter how little work they do.  Under his contract, if he doesn't pass them, the administrators can go in after he has assigned semester grades and change them themselves.

While this is immensely frustrating, I can understand where it comes from.  There is a great deal of pressure on administrators to increase graduation rates and school funding is tied to graduation rates.  High school dropouts are far more likely to be arrested and incarcerated than those who graduate. 

Academic achievement is not just a school problem, it is deeply tied to social issues, something we don't want to address in the United States.

ariapluscat

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #92 on: March 02, 2017, 10:01:12 AM »
hargrove i think captures how a lot of us, millennials, feel. and if you do take the entry level job you're over qualified for, there's little chance of advancing and if you try to apply to your education qualification it may actually be seen as a detriment. older workers seem to be staying in the workforce longer. and if you jump ship to a different company after doing your entry level drudgery, the office you left has the 'millennials are quitters with no loyalty, just trying to put in the minimum' reinforced.
why don't we ever hear anything about what the companies are doing to cause this? it's useful to learn the schooling that causes this or the lack of technical education for non-white collar jobs that fusses the supply of workers and applicants, but i think there must be something on the supply of jobs side that is messed up.

there may also be perception issues of what is a millennial asking for. i'm already running into the frustration. i took an entry level job i was over qualified for. in the year i've had the job, my responsibilities have ballooned while my pay hasn't. i had an unexpected flare up of a chronic illness and my productivity went down, def below my usual but still above those previously in my role. now i'm in a vat of hot water for it. what's the reward for working hard at your entry level job if doing so just means that more work will be expected of you but you don't advance or get any flexibility for things out of your control?

the other thing that makes advancement hard is that some fields have education thresholds. so while you might be able to get your undergrad cheap/free, it's unlikely you can get your master's cheaply. and the master's is what you need to jump payscales.

the research line that rebuts a lot of the MMM soothing words is this "Most importantly, the qualitative results do not change when we account for potential changes in the quality of goods and new product innovation." so even if you are trying to cut down your consumer desires, the advance of tech isn't actually enough to offset the loss of wages compared to your parents at your age. and if all of this comes with being seen as a replaceable and irresponsible cog with no hope of advancement or recognition as a person, then it makes sense that millennials would be resentful and worried.

start_at_the_beginning

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #93 on: March 02, 2017, 11:18:20 AM »
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/12/09/income-american-dream-kids/95190206/

I'm glad I finally learned that the 'American Dream' is making more than your Father.  (Note, not Mother, as that wasn't 'polled' :S )

For a long time, owning an albatross house is what we were supposed to strive for.  Well thankfully we have a much better target now!

If Dad started a successful company or similar, you're pretty much damned...


I don't want to join in this debate (as a millennial myself trying to find a job, it's too close to home), but I have to know- what on earth is an albatross house???

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #94 on: March 02, 2017, 11:21:21 AM »
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/12/09/income-american-dream-kids/95190206/

I'm glad I finally learned that the 'American Dream' is making more than your Father.  (Note, not Mother, as that wasn't 'polled' :S )

For a long time, owning an albatross house is what we were supposed to strive for.  Well thankfully we have a much better target now!

If Dad started a successful company or similar, you're pretty much damned...


I don't want to join in this debate (as a millennial myself trying to find a job, it's too close to home), but I have to know- what on earth is an albatross house???

It's a reference to an incident from Coleridge's poem "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner", in which the main character had a dead albatross tied around his neck as punishment. The albatross was a rotting, malodorous burden he couldn't get rid of. In the case of real estate, that would be a house that, for whatever reason, can't be easily sold and sits on the market for a long time.
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start_at_the_beginning

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #95 on: March 02, 2017, 11:40:26 AM »
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/12/09/income-american-dream-kids/95190206/

I'm glad I finally learned that the 'American Dream' is making more than your Father.  (Note, not Mother, as that wasn't 'polled' :S )

For a long time, owning an albatross house is what we were supposed to strive for.  Well thankfully we have a much better target now!

If Dad started a successful company or similar, you're pretty much damned...


I don't want to join in this debate (as a millennial myself trying to find a job, it's too close to home), but I have to know- what on earth is an albatross house???

It's a reference to an incident from Coleridge's poem "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner", in which the main character had a dead albatross tied around his neck as punishment. The albatross was a rotting, malodorous burden he couldn't get rid of. In the case of real estate, that would be a house that, for whatever reason, can't be easily sold and sits on the market for a long time.

Ah, thank you! Not quite what I was imagining, but that makes a lot more sense.

WGH

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2017, 12:10:08 PM »
why don't we ever hear anything about what the companies are doing to cause this? it's useful to learn the schooling that causes this or the lack of technical education for non-white collar jobs that fusses the supply of workers and applicants, but i think there must be something on the supply of jobs side that is messed up.

Oh it is definitely the supply side because this is what they are saying is the problem.

Quote
“The jobs are there, but the skills are not,” one executive said during meetings with White House officials that preceded a session with the president.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/factory-jobs-exist-ceos-tell-trump-skills-dont/

But this is actually what is happening:

Quote
The report, released last week by China Labor Watch, revealed worsening labor conditions at Pegatron, one of Apple's major iPhone factories based outside of Shanghai. The factory implemented excessive overtime hours that spanned up to 90 additional hours per month, according to the report, and overall wage cuts from $1.85 to $1.60 per hour on Pegatron workers over the past year.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/09/01/as-apples-profits-decline-iphone-factory-workers-suffer-a-new-report-claims/?utm_term=.f3a53a10393a

These companies like Apple want to complain that there is no technical manufacturing skills in the US but somehow a chinese laborer making $2/hour has those sufficient skills? Bullshit! It's all about the almighty dollar and poor Apple only made $45.7 Billion in profits last year. Obviously they couldn't bring those jobs back and pay an American a livable wage because maybe the profits would only be $30 Billion. Oh the horror....

StarBright

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #97 on: March 02, 2017, 12:10:56 PM »

It's not a perfectly fine vocation. The day you slip a disk carrying a bag of concrete your employer fires you. Then COBRA runs out while you wait to get on disability. Then you're 35 with no marketable skills and a long term injury you can't treat. It's arguably worse when this happens at 55.

Some of us observed this as one of our parents' life lessons. Everyone is choosing the chronic, long-term injuries of office work instead of the acute, immediate injuries of physical labor.

+100000000

I'm from a midwestern blue collar family and most of my generation is 1st gen. college. We've seen what our parents, aunts and uncles have gone through health-wise and want no part of it. I have uncles that are still trying to do trucking in their late 50's and their backs haven't been able to really handle it in years. Another is a lineman who took a horrible fall a few years ago and is disabled for life.

maizeman

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #98 on: March 02, 2017, 01:23:49 PM »
There is a great deal of pressure on administrators to increase graduation rates and school funding is tied to graduation rates.  High school dropouts are far more likely to be arrested and incarcerated than those who graduate. 

Ugh. If these administrators were my students I would have to pull out my whole lecture on the correlation and causation, and even if there is causation determining and testing the DIRECTION of causation. People who vacation in Saint Barthélemy are more likely to have six figure incomes, but that doesn't mean the solution to increasing median household income is to start shipping people out to that island by the boatload.
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Pigeon

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #99 on: March 02, 2017, 01:30:00 PM »

It's not a perfectly fine vocation. The day you slip a disk carrying a bag of concrete your employer fires you. Then COBRA runs out while you wait to get on disability. Then you're 35 with no marketable skills and a long term injury you can't treat. It's arguably worse when this happens at 55.

Some of us observed this as one of our parents' life lessons. Everyone is choosing the chronic, long-term injuries of office work instead of the acute, immediate injuries of physical labor.


+100000000

I'm from a midwestern blue collar family and most of my generation is 1st gen. college. We've seen what our parents, aunts and uncles have gone through health-wise and want no part of it. I have uncles that are still trying to do trucking in their late 50's and their backs haven't been able to really handle it in years. Another is a lineman who took a horrible fall a few years ago and is disabled for life.

There is also a mantra here that skilled laborers make bank, so everyone should encourage their kids not to go to college and go into the trades instead.  The median salary in the US for plumbers and electricians is a little over $50K/year.  That's  not  a terrible annual income, particularly if you don't have to pay a ton for college, but's not the guaranteed $100+K/yr that is often implied here.