Author Topic: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!  (Read 13920 times)

Hargrove

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #100 on: March 02, 2017, 02:30:24 PM »
Skilled laborers have steady jobs and invest way less than people getting their unemployable PhDs in Obscurity. This is not at all to say colleges only offer PhDs in Obscurity, but they offer an awful lot of PhDs in Obscurity, which can make it look like an endorsement of many unemployable PhDs. College still benefits perversely from the noble sheen of academia that is just not what college is today.

I think the boards are anti-anti-skilled-trade. It's not quite the same as being all about skilled trade. I think there are just way too many people out there with degrees in Cuneiform and 16th Century Cobbling Techniques, and there are too many students feeling constant pressure to go to college for "whatever." Worse, it's not really something you can go on to reasonably just because Mom said so.

College costs (sticker price) - (aid) - (scholarships) + (opportunity cost in not working) + (opportunity cost in not getting meaningful raises) + (loan interest) + (compounding opportunity lost). It rewards graduates with jobs often, but many only pay 50k a year. Some even less. Some more. Sure, applied college students with job prospects, strong results, and growing fields will do overwhelmingly better than the average carpenter on a dollar-for-dollar basis. It's just that not everyone can be one of those.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 03:37:23 PM by Hargrove »

cheapass

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #101 on: March 02, 2017, 03:27:55 PM »
why don't we ever hear anything about what the companies are doing to cause this? it's useful to learn the schooling that causes this or the lack of technical education for non-white collar jobs that fusses the supply of workers and applicants, but i think there must be something on the supply of jobs side that is messed up.

Oh it is definitely the supply side because this is what they are saying is the problem.

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“The jobs are there, but the skills are not,” one executive said during meetings with White House officials that preceded a session with the president.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/factory-jobs-exist-ceos-tell-trump-skills-dont/

But this is actually what is happening:

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The report, released last week by China Labor Watch, revealed worsening labor conditions at Pegatron, one of Apple's major iPhone factories based outside of Shanghai. The factory implemented excessive overtime hours that spanned up to 90 additional hours per month, according to the report, and overall wage cuts from $1.85 to $1.60 per hour on Pegatron workers over the past year.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/09/01/as-apples-profits-decline-iphone-factory-workers-suffer-a-new-report-claims/?utm_term=.f3a53a10393a

These companies like Apple want to complain that there is no technical manufacturing skills in the US but somehow a chinese laborer making $2/hour has those sufficient skills? Bullshit! It's all about the almighty dollar and poor Apple only made $45.7 Billion in profits last year. Obviously they couldn't bring those jobs back and pay an American a livable wage because maybe the profits would only be $30 Billion. Oh the horror....
Corporations do have an obligation to their shareholders to maximize earnings. If leveraging cheaper labor will improve the bottom line, that's what they do. They're not in the business of charity.

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MrsPete

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #102 on: March 02, 2017, 04:25:57 PM »
Right, but speak at career day about how there are great opportunities as a welder, electrician, plumber, carpenter, etc. and it's like you just lit the building on fire.  "My son's going to be a lawyer!"  No, no he isn't.
Yep, that's exactly what I hear all the time. 

I hear it from kids who are not 'specically academic, don't like to read, have poor school attendance ... yet they think they're going to go to college, choose a competitive major, and get a high-paying professional job.  These are the same kids who look down on our high school classes that prepare kids to step into entry-level trade jobs. 

SwordGuy

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #103 on: March 02, 2017, 07:47:24 PM »
Sorry, but I think your perspective is out of whack.  I'll do my best to explain why.

hargrove i think captures how a lot of us, millennials, feel. and if you do take the entry level job you're over qualified for, there's little chance of advancing and if you try to apply to your education qualification it may actually be seen as a detriment. older workers seem to be staying in the workforce longer. and if you jump ship to a different company after doing your entry level drudgery, the office you left has the 'millennials are quitters with no loyalty, just trying to put in the minimum' reinforced.

People change jobs all the time.  I've had (not counting part time work in college and high school) 10 employers.
3 of them bought out the firm I worked for so we'll count it as 7.   If you're constantly changing jobs every year or two for a decade or two then it's a red flag.  But changing jobs right out of school?  Not a problem, especially if it's a step up.

If you've made friends with colleagues at the company who respect you and your work, keep in touch with them after you leave work there.  It is THEIR opinion that will matter to a potential new employer far more than the bland, sanitized-for-legal-protection reference HR will give out.

why don't we ever hear anything about what the companies are doing to cause this? it's useful to learn the schooling that causes this or the lack of technical education for non-white collar jobs that fusses the supply of workers and applicants, but i think there must be something on the supply of jobs side that is messed up.

Because they have to, that's why.  If they don't get more efficient and profitable their competition will.  And then they will wither away or die off.   Read the business news.  You'll learn about major companies that just didn't change with the times and how they are dying off or retrenching big time.

there may also be perception issues of what is a millennial asking for. i'm already running into the frustration. i took an entry level job i was over qualified for. in the year i've had the job, my responsibilities have ballooned while my pay hasn't. i had an unexpected flare up of a chronic illness and my productivity went down, def below my usual but still above those previously in my role. now i'm in a vat of hot water for it. what's the reward for working hard at your entry level job if doing so just means that more work will be expected of you but you don't advance or get any flexibility for things out of your control?

Welcome to the real world.   

Do you expect a corporation - a legal body without a soul - to give a damn about you?   It can't, it has no soul.

Some managers nurture their staff to get the most value out of them, other managers exploit their staff to try the same result.   If you have an exploiter for a boss, don't expect them to do you any kindnesses that will cost them - well - anything.   This isn't some new thing that your generation is the first to experience.   We've all had to put up with it.

When you get a job, you should view it as a stepping stone to a better one.   That means you figure out what skills, contacts or credentials you can extract from that job and you manuever to get them.  You don't expect your manager to do that for you.  It's your responsibility.     Right or wrong that's just the way it is.  Put your priorities on those items that will help you move towards the next job you want - whether it's at your current employer or not.
In fact, if you want a big promotion or a big raise, your odds are significantly higher of getting them at a new employer.  If your current employer is growing like crazy and money is rolling in then you've got a better than average shot at a big promotion and raise at your current employer.  Otherwise, not so much.  It is what it is.

So, your boss doesn't appreciate you, your skills and your hard work.   Get a different boss at a different employer.   Just make sure you actually have skills, work hard, do good work, and are personable...

the other thing that makes advancement hard is that some fields have education thresholds. so while you might be able to get your undergrad cheap/free, it's unlikely you can get your master's cheaply. and the master's is what you need to jump payscales.
Actually, if you've got a job at a decent sized company you might very well be able to get a higher degree paid for by your company.  It's worth checking into.   And making sure you know how long you have to stay after you get it without having to pay them back anything.  Check with HR.   A small business employer?  Not very likely.

the research line that rebuts a lot of the MMM soothing words is this "Most importantly, the qualitative results do not change when we account for potential changes in the quality of goods and new product innovation." so even if you are trying to cut down your consumer desires, the advance of tech isn't actually enough to offset the loss of wages compared to your parents at your age. and if all of this comes with being seen as a replaceable and irresponsible cog with no hope of advancement or recognition as a person, then it makes sense that millennials would be resentful and worried.

Doesn't matter what your parents made or didn't make at your age.   Simply doesn't matter.   You just do your best in the situation you find yourself in.    And the reality for people in the USA is that having a comfortable life and a profitable career isn't that hard to do.




WGH

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #104 on: March 03, 2017, 08:45:24 AM »
Corporations do have an obligation to their shareholders to maximize earnings. If leveraging cheaper labor will improve the bottom line, that's what they do. They're not in the business of charity.


Oh I agree completely. But they sure are in the business of accepting charity when their goals of maximizing earnings led to the Great Recession.

Quote
Most people think that the big bank bailout was the $700 billion that the treasury department used to save the banks during the financial crash in September of 2008. But this is a long way from the truth because the bailout is still ongoing. The Special Inspector General for TARP summary of the bailout says that the total commitment of government is $16.8 trillion dollars with the $4.6 trillion already paid out. Yes, it was trillions not billions and the banks are now larger and still too big to fail. But it isn’t just the government bailout money that tells the story of the bailout. This is a story about lies, cheating, and a multi-faceted corruption which was often criminal.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikecollins/2015/07/14/the-big-bank-bailout/#4254d2c72d83

At some point the rubber will have to meet the road of the conflict between the corporate fiduciary duty to their shareholders and the need for available jobs just for society to function.

ariapluscat

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #105 on: March 03, 2017, 09:40:52 AM »
Sorry, but I think your perspective is out of whack.  I'll do my best to explain why.

hargrove i think captures how a lot of us, millennials, feel. and if you do take the entry level job you're over qualified for, there's little chance of advancing and if you try to apply to your education qualification it may actually be seen as a detriment. older workers seem to be staying in the workforce longer. and if you jump ship to a different company after doing your entry level drudgery, the office you left has the 'millennials are quitters with no loyalty, just trying to put in the minimum' reinforced.

People change jobs all the time.  I've had (not counting part time work in college and high school) 10 employers.
3 of them bought out the firm I worked for so we'll count it as 7.   If you're constantly changing jobs every year or two for a decade or two then it's a red flag.  But changing jobs right out of school?  Not a problem, especially if it's a step up.

If you've made friends with colleagues at the company who respect you and your work, keep in touch with them after you leave work there.  It is THEIR opinion that will matter to a potential new employer far more than the bland, sanitized-for-legal-protection reference HR will give out.


except to qualify for most benefits or even accommodation like fmla, you have to be at a company for 12 months. and if you're going for the mmm advice, you may have to be at a job 3-5 years to meet requirements for a retirement contribution match.

why do companies "have to"? what caused the major shift that the competition/paradigm changed?


Welcome to the real world.   

Do you expect a corporation - a legal body without a soul - to give a damn about you?   It can't, it has no soul.

i mean, it's not a corporation that makes these decisions. it's an actual human who makes them. plus, my understanding is that most research shows that retention and education pays for itself over burnout and constant new hirings. like you say, a lot of places will pay for degrees.  not to mention the previous question: what changed so much between generations that the adjusted income is so different? and the previous-previous question which is why would pursuing more education help if many millennials are already underemployed/overqualified?
also, i think millennials have a reputation for being job jumpers and irresponsible.

i'm not sure if you mean about caring that i was sick. i don't expect them to care or give me extra. i expect them to follow legal requirements. if i want more than that, i get involved in activism to change those laws. so i would agree, counting on the kindness of an employer for that kind of support is a bad idea.

i hope it doesn't sound like i'm merely complaining. in my own personal life, i'm doing what i can, filing the paperwork, looking at other jobs, reaching out to my supervisor and support offices. but that's something a lot of ppl can't do or won't know how to do. it's probably not something i could've done while i was sick, just a few weeks ago. it doesn't solve some of the problems that seem to be affecting so many ppl in the post 1984 generation that it can't just be individual failings.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #106 on: March 15, 2017, 09:05:40 AM »
Listening to Millennials complain about the ways of the work-world exhausts you, until you start listening to companies whine about their “skills gaps.” Or “entitled Millennials.” Or “lack of loyalty.”

You have the cheapest capital in the history of mankind, you have the most advanced logistics in the history of mankind, you have the most educated workforce in the history of mankind, you have millions of undocumented workers and workers willing to work under the table (and you can outsource and subcontract if you don’t want to bring them on directly), you can offshore entire factories to new nations with the cheapest shipping rates in history, and businesses are still whining!

Talk about complainy-pants! Companies basically say the economy is about to collapse unless wages collapse even further and they get more giant tax breaks. Meanwhile Elon Musk revolutionizes entire industries and builds space rockets in his spare time.

The dream isn't dead, but there sure are a lot of complainers, be they consumers, laborers, capitalists, pensioners....

Goldielocks

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #107 on: March 19, 2017, 12:15:45 PM »
I have a similar story to share.  It is close to home. 

..  awesome story here...

 He gets pretty much straight Bs with no effort.  If a grade drops to a C he tries a little harder for a while until it is a B again and then starts coasting.  He will not try hard enough to get an overall A.  It seems when a course does have an A grade he starts coasting in that course. It's like an A is a signal to start being lazy again.


Here is the secret that I learned early as an industrial engineer - you know, one of those horrible people looking at methods, holding a stop watch, and timing people and delays?   Most of my work was with manufacturing and warehouse distribution (watching people select cartons for shipping or running a forklift)

I learned early that the  employee that the supervisor was most upset about, was likely the one who was doing about average or above work.  But working very slowly but often steadily, and looked lazy. 

The brighter people are, the more that they will coast to the minimum, if there is no further gain to them. (such as curiosity, pay or recognition).  Performance up by 10% for the week, and it is Friday at noon?  Yep, take it to half speed the rest of the day.  (We could only solve this one by rotating which day of the week was the "end" day by employee, so the ENTIRE workforce was not at 50% on the same day).

I learned to ask about the "lazy" employees, because they usually had figured out 15 shortcuts to the work, that I could study then implement for others to improve overall performance.  I had to coach the supervisors to lay off the "lazy" people and let their results be the guide. 

---------------------------
Obviously you want the bar for Algebra to be an "A".   Kid doesn't.  (Neither does mine, BTW)  It drives me nuts, but I can't change it, DD does not see herself as a math person now or ever in the future.  At least my DD has four subjects that she loves and is getting a high A in.     What can we possibly do?

exterous

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #108 on: March 20, 2017, 08:11:11 AM »
When you get a job, you should view it as a stepping stone to a better one.   That means you figure out what skills, contacts or credentials you can extract from that job and you manuever to get them.  You don't expect your manager to do that for you.  It's your responsibility.     Right or wrong that's just the way it is.  Put your priorities on those items that will help you move towards the next job you want - whether it's at your current employer or not.
In fact, if you want a big promotion or a big raise, your odds are significantly higher of getting them at a new employer.  If your current employer is growing like crazy and money is rolling in then you've got a better than average shot at a big promotion and raise at your current employer.  Otherwise, not so much.  It is what it is.

I've also found it useful to make it clear to your employers that you are interested in moving up within the company. When I got my job at my current company I made it clear that I was interested in growing myself professionally and wanting to move up in the company as I improved my skills\made myself more valuable. I asked my boss what skills they wanted\needed and then worked on those skills. When a higher position opened up I applied and got the job over people who had been there longer but had not taken the responsibility to find out what the employer wanted. For my new job and new boss I did the same thing. Low and behold a position is opening up this summer and I have been told its mine. Sure it hasn't happened yet but as the brand new guy in the dept I'll likely be getting it because I took the initiative and can show them that I check all the boxes that they are looking for.

Sorry, but I think your perspective is out of whack.  I'll do my best to explain why.

hargrove i think captures how a lot of us, millennials, feel. and if you do take the entry level job you're over qualified for, there's little chance of advancing and if you try to apply to your education qualification it may actually be seen as a detriment. older workers seem to be staying in the workforce longer. and if you jump ship to a different company after doing your entry level drudgery, the office you left has the 'millennials are quitters with no loyalty, just trying to put in the minimum' reinforced.

People change jobs all the time.  I've had (not counting part time work in college and high school) 10 employers.
3 of them bought out the firm I worked for so we'll count it as 7.   If you're constantly changing jobs every year or two for a decade or two then it's a red flag.  But changing jobs right out of school?  Not a problem, especially if it's a step up.

If you've made friends with colleagues at the company who respect you and your work, keep in touch with them after you leave work there.  It is THEIR opinion that will matter to a potential new employer far more than the bland, sanitized-for-legal-protection reference HR will give out.


except to qualify for most benefits or even accommodation like fmla, you have to be at a company for 12 months. and if you're going for the mmm advice, you may have to be at a job 3-5 years to meet requirements for a retirement contribution match.

Do you have a source for 'most benefits require 12 months'? i'm not saying its wrong but its certainly not what I have experienced and the state I live in was one of the worst hit by the recession so I would think they would be more likely to lengthen benefit qualification times if this was a common situation.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #109 on: March 20, 2017, 09:17:52 AM »

Obviously you want the bar for Algebra to be an "A".   Kid doesn't.  (Neither does mine, BTW)  It drives me nuts, but I can't change it, DD does not see herself as a math person now or ever in the future.  At least my DD has four subjects that she loves and is getting a high A in.     What can we possibly do?

Heh, I know I was a pretty horrible student for a long time for exactly this reason. Incentives were not aligned with good grades. I eventually worked hard enough and had enough AP/Honor classes to raise my ending high-school GPA to like 3.5, though not through any desire to get good grades: just was a bit more motivated to learn.

I don't regret that laziness. However, that carried over into college...where I stopped working on the Honors College programs because my professors bored the hell out of me, and never got an internship because "who needs one of those"? Those ended up being costly mistakes. Probably 200k in current net worth, and I'm only 30.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #110 on: March 20, 2017, 09:29:51 AM »
Good companies offer benefits on the first day of employment, or MAYBE after a probationary period of 3 months if they're a little stingy. That's the deal with light-blue-to-white-collar work in America.

Having to wait 12 months is insane. Good luck finding employees worth having.

Goldielocks

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #111 on: March 20, 2017, 02:03:28 PM »
Good companies offer benefits on the first day of employment, or MAYBE after a probationary period of 3 months if they're a little stingy. That's the deal with light-blue-to-white-collar work in America.

Having to wait 12 months is insane. Good luck finding employees worth having.

Pension benefits often kick in after 12 months, however... or for people on hourly work, that my not work enough hours, those companies base your benefits on how many hours you worked the prior year, to ensure it was 24 or 30 hours per week, on average...

Raenia

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #112 on: April 07, 2017, 01:08:02 PM »
Good companies offer benefits on the first day of employment, or MAYBE after a probationary period of 3 months if they're a little stingy. That's the deal with light-blue-to-white-collar work in America.

Having to wait 12 months is insane. Good luck finding employees worth having.

I had a job where the 401k was not available until 3 months, matching did not start until 6 months, and vested at 1%/yr.  To get fully vested matching, I would have had to stay with the company 2.5+ years.  This company's policy proved indicative of the general esteem in which they held their employees, so I wound up leaving after ~9 months.  That doesn't stop them from continuing to do it, and complaining all the while about how impossible it is to find good, young employees.

The problem seems to be that many companies no longer feel it is necessary to be a GOOD company, when they can make more profit by cutting benefits to their workers.

Goldielocks

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #113 on: April 08, 2017, 12:23:36 AM »
Good companies offer benefits on the first day of employment, or MAYBE after a probationary period of 3 months if they're a little stingy. That's the deal with light-blue-to-white-collar work in America.

Having to wait 12 months is insane. Good luck finding employees worth having.

I had a job where the 401k was not available until 3 months, matching did not start until 6 months, and vested at 1%/yr.  To get fully vested matching, I would have had to stay with the company 2.5+ years.  This company's policy proved indicative of the general esteem in which they held their employees, so I wound up leaving after ~9 months.  That doesn't stop them from continuing to do it, and complaining all the while about how impossible it is to find good, young employees.

The problem seems to be that many companies no longer feel it is necessary to be a GOOD company, when they can make more profit by cutting benefits to their workers.

Safeway (USA) was 5 years until vested in the matching / pension amounts.  Now they actually put in 5% without needing the employee to match it, but still.  5 years to vest seemed insane to me.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Warning! The American Dream is Dead for Millenials!!
« Reply #114 on: April 08, 2017, 09:25:47 AM »
As much as I love a good 401(k) plan, I don't consider quality of the 401(k) matching provisions to be essential benefits. My earlier comment was mainly targeting medical coverage.