The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: scottish on February 01, 2020, 10:08:37 AM
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Extra cool. This time GM is hoping to produce a 1000 Hp electric Hummer. There's even a youtube video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCcs2UxkYvM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCcs2UxkYvM)
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I’m predicting a flop sales wise.
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It could be worse. They could just continue with the status quo of diesel and gasoline engines. I have a feeling most traditional truck owners don't actually give a shit about Tesla or Rivian's trucks. Truck owners seem to be pretty dogmatic about their brand. I see Chevy trucks with even bigger Chevy logos on their rear windows blocking their view. Or Ford trucks with Calvin from 'Calvin and Hobbes' pissing on a Chevy logo. It's not just a truck to them. It's part of their identity.
If bringing back the Hummer name gets the Billy Bobs out there to take an electric truck seriously, it's a win.
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People have moved on to the Jeep Wrangler as the replacement clown car of choice. When Hummer went away, Chrysler-Jeep wisely added a little more bling and features to the Wrangler and jacked up the price $10-15K.
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Just for comparison, a Kenworth tractor (i.e. the front part of a tractor trailer) makes about 500 Hp. (I know, that's a big diesel with lots of torque. Electric engines have lots of torque too.)
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A mostly normal looking/shape EV pickup? And is that a winch/mount I see on the front, and tow loops, and skid plates? Great! But a lot depends on details yet to be released: price, range, bla bla bla.
If, as expected, it's priced in the $70k range (https://www.motor1.com/features/395963/gmc-hummer-ev-horsepower-details/) then too rich for my blood. Yet there will be a niche market for it, and we can celebrate that EVs are catching on.
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People have moved on to the Jeep Wrangler as the replacement clown car of choice. When Hummer went away, Chrysler-Jeep wisely added a little more bling and features to the Wrangler and jacked up the price $10-15K.
OMG can't believe I didn't make this connection, I've been noticing a lot more Wranglers around town! There's even one with a pick-up bed in the back the "Jeep Gladiator" which I find both totally ridiculous but also somehow cool and I sorta want one (in theory but not actually in practice).
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Love the look of the big Jeeps then I rode in one. Wouldn't want to go very far in one. Not very tame highway manners. Or maybe it is just the one I rode in.
Hummer as an electric brand seems goofy to me. The same people I know who had Hummers at some point are major Trump/GOP supporters. Not impressed with anything that doesn't make alot of noise, take up alot of space, or burn alot of fossil fuels. On the flip side the few opinionated pro-EV people I've met have long used the Hummer as their preferred example of waste and excess.
I think GM should have picked any other brand name for this project. Perhaps I'll be completely wrong and both groups will flock to this truck.
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Hummer as an electric brand seems goofy to me. The same people I know who had Hummers at some point are major Trump/GOP supporters. Not impressed with anything that doesn't make alot of noise, take up alot of space, or burn alot of fossil fuels. On the flip side the few opinionated pro-EV people I've met have long used the Hummer as their preferred example of waste and excess.
While I'm sure all this is true, I think we should try to avoid sorting EV-love across political lines as much as is possible. It is for example also true that Electric vehicles support the US coal industry, and that gasoline engines trend towards keeping us dependent on middle-eastern oil.
I prefer to hope that rural folks haven't picked up on EVs yet just because there haven't been any vehicles that are practical for their use-cases yet. As EV trucks start to become a thing maybe that will change. Any EV that replaces a gas/diesel engine is a good thing in my book. The excessiveness of the vehicle is probably going to be fairly constant, but the EV can still be better in other ways.
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RE Jeeps.
Jeeps are horrible unless you fit the following:
1. You actually drive it offroad
2. You actually drive it offroad
3. You actually drive it offroad
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10. You want a convertible that can carry 5.
If they are lifted with 35/37" tires they get like 13 mpg, are loud as all get-out, and have bump-steer and wander all over the road at the slightest hint of a breeze.
That said, they are an absolute blast to drive off-road.
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Hummer as an electric brand seems goofy to me. The same people I know who had Hummers at some point are major Trump/GOP supporters. Not impressed with anything that doesn't make alot of noise, take up alot of space, or burn alot of fossil fuels. On the flip side the few opinionated pro-EV people I've met have long used the Hummer as their preferred example of waste and excess.
While I'm sure all this is true, I think we should try to avoid sorting EV-love across political lines as much as is possible. It is for example also true that Electric vehicles support the US coal industry, and that gasoline engines trend towards keeping us dependent on middle-eastern oil.
FWIW, the US isn't dependent on the middle east like it used to be. In fact, as of last November the US is a net exporter of all petroleum products, from crude oil to refined fuels. That doesn't mean the US is immune to price fluctuations due to instability in the middle east, but it greatly dampens the effect.
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I thought the Chinese bought Hummer?
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I thought the Chinese bought Hummer?
Looks like that fell through, per Wikipedia:
In 2009, a Chinese manufacturer, Sichuan Tengzhong Heavy Industrial Machinery Company, announced that it would acquire Hummer, pending government approvals, but later withdrew its bid.
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Wonder if this means that there will be more charging stations built. Most Hummers I am aware of were lucky to get 1 city block with out a refuel. Granted it got better... almost 2 city blocks before production of Hummers died! Almost want to see this come out just so those charging stations have to be built!
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I have a feeling most traditional truck owners don't actually give a shit about Tesla or Rivian's trucks. Truck owners seem to be pretty dogmatic about their brand. I see Chevy trucks with even bigger Chevy logos on their rear windows blocking their view. Or Ford trucks with Calvin from 'Calvin and Hobbes' pissing on a Chevy logo. It's not just a truck to them. It's part of their identity.
If bringing back the Hummer name gets the Billy Bobs out there to take an electric truck seriously, it's a win.
Care to shove a few more stereotypes in while you're at it? You've probably missed at least a few...
There are quite a few subcategories of "traditional truck owner," and, quite simply, most of them aren't served by a $70k class electric truck. There are some that might be - but that group is almost certainly going to "wait and see" if the electric trucks are actually any good, in practice, before spending an awful lot of money on one.
On the cheap end of the scale, you've got people who own a cheap truck for either winter use (a 4WD truck may be the easiest way out of a driveway if you're in snow country), or for somewhat infrequent hauling of large materials. They own a $1k-$10k truck, put a few thousand miles a year (tops) on it, and mostly care that it sits around well, that it starts when needed, and that it's easy enough to fix when something goes wrong. Think a beater Ranger or F150, an S10, etc. This group is flat out not in the market for an electric truck because of cost - you're not going to convince someone who has a truck worth $5k, that goes through 100 gallons of gas a year, that a $70k-$100k truck makes sense. It doesn't matter if it's gas, diesel, electric, Mr. Fusion... an expensive truck makes no sense for them.
There's definitely the "teenage boys with a truck" group, which I've noticed does tend to include a depressing number of 20-35 year olds. This group is certainly "truck lifestyle," tends irritating as hell, likes over-rich diesels despite what it does to their engine, and is broadly disliked by an awful lot of other truck owners. Despite what a lot of people assume, the vast majority of diesel truck owners bloody well hate coal rollers, because it's a lot of unwelcome attention to diesels in general, which are quite good engines for many cases. This group tends to not have much money, so almost certainly won't be buying a new electric truck. However, once they're cheaper, I expect it will be popular - cheap to run, and insane torque. You tow your buddy's stacked F350 backwards a few times in the mud, well... it's clear what the superior truck is.
Another major group of truck owners is the "business truck" types - it's a work truck, though if the person in question is in sales or a foreman, it may be a very, very nice truck indeed. I don't expect the "style truck" types to care too much about electric trucks, but those who view a truck as a way to haul a crew and trailer around are likely to be very interested in the electric trucks - once they prove themselves. There's nothing wrong with an expensive truck if it runs well, is cheap(ish) to maintain, and hauls a trailer properly, but there quite literally aren't any of those on the market right now. Tesla's Cybertruck is... well, flashy, certainly, but I've not seen details on how it handles a 5th wheel or gooseneck hitch, and people I know with Teslas certainly spend a lot of time in the service centers. If the trucks are reliable, cheap to run, and can actually haul a trailer, I fully expect this group to buy them - as their current trucks wear out. You don't buy a new work truck every 5 years, you run 'em until they're worn out.
Then there's the RV types - and if an electric truck can haul a 5th wheel for a useful range, and has a big inverter, well, this group will be quite interested. Shore power when boondocking without a generator? Sure! It's not that uncommon to buy a new truck to haul your 5th wheel, but, again, the trucks have to prove themselves. Here, Tesla's supercharger network has some advantages, though I expect to see an awful lot of pissed off Tesla owners when someone with a truck and trailer blocks a few stations because the stations are poorly positioned for this use case. But, again, the truck has to prove it has a useful range and can actually haul a 5th wheel for a couple hundred miles before it'll work.
And there are some truck owners that don't fit into these categories, but it covers an awful lot of them - and, simply, some of the groups just don't have the money for the truck, and other groups are conservative and will want to see that the trucks actually work before buying one.
Just for comparison, a Kenworth tractor (i.e. the front part of a tractor trailer) makes about 500 Hp. (I know, that's a big diesel with lots of torque. Electric engines have lots of torque too.)
Yeah, but that engine is making the better part of that 500hp for a million miles. Big difference from something like a Model S that can dump a ton of power, but overheats quickly.
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I have a feeling most traditional truck owners don't actually give a shit about Tesla or Rivian's trucks. Truck owners seem to be pretty dogmatic about their brand. I see Chevy trucks with even bigger Chevy logos on their rear windows blocking their view. Or Ford trucks with Calvin from 'Calvin and Hobbes' pissing on a Chevy logo. It's not just a truck to them. It's part of their identity.
If bringing back the Hummer name gets the Billy Bobs out there to take an electric truck seriously, it's a win.
Care to shove a few more stereotypes in while you're at it? You've probably missed at least a few...
There are quite a few subcategories of "traditional truck owner," and, quite simply, most of them aren't served by a $70k class electric truck. There are some that might be - but that group is almost certainly going to "wait and see" if the electric trucks are actually any good, in practice, before spending an awful lot of money on one.
I forgot the trailer hitch scrotum, lift kit, off road tires that never go off road, smoke stacks through the truck bed, diesel dually as a commuter car with camouflage fender flares, and aftermarket rims crowd. In my area, it’s pretty rare to see an unmodified pickup truck. If notice a neighbor replace a truck, it’s usually with another one of the same brand.
I agree with you that most truck guys aren’t going to just stop buying gasoline and diesel trucks if they are still an option. It will be a long time before electric trucks are completely accepted by this crowd.
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I forgot the trailer hitch scrotum, lift kit, off road tires that never go off road, smoke stacks through the truck bed, diesel dually as a commuter car with camouflage fender flares, and aftermarket rims crowd. In my area, it’s pretty rare to see an unmodified pickup truck. If notice a neighbor replace a truck, it’s usually with another one of the same brand.
Eh, that's a lot of "teenage boys with trucks," even though they're in their 30s. And have a bit more money.
I assure you, people who have trucks they use as trucks think that group is just as silly as most of the rest of the world. Nothing says, "I don't actually need a truck!" like stacks ruining the bed and a receiver up 4 feet in the air.
I agree with you that most truck guys aren’t going to just stop buying gasoline and diesel trucks if they are still an option. It will be a long time before electric trucks are completely accepted by this crowd.
They'll be accepted by a large number of people once they prove they work. Elon Musk towing a train or whatever doesn't demonstrate that his truck can get over a good pass towing a 5th wheel on a windy day, and still have enough range to make the next charging station.
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I forgot the trailer hitch scrotum, lift kit, off road tires that never go off road, smoke stacks through the truck bed, diesel dually as a commuter car with camouflage fender flares, and aftermarket rims crowd. In my area, it’s pretty rare to see an unmodified pickup truck. If notice a neighbor replace a truck, it’s usually with another one of the same brand.
I agree with you that most truck guys aren’t going to just stop buying gasoline and diesel trucks if they are still an option. It will be a long time before electric trucks are completely accepted by this crowd.
Sure, some truck guys just like to burn petrol, same as some gearheads, but many (most?) are making side by side comparisons. Guys remain loyal to a brand because the truck companies all offer about the same thing at the same price point, so they stick with what they know and what they already have parts and accessories for.
At around $70k the current crop of EV trucks don't compare favorable to traditional ICE trucks in almost any category except as an urban daily driver. Towing, hauling, accessing vast rural areas where the DCFC network hasn't yet reached...EV trucks aren't quite ready yet. I have a F150 for these things (my daily driver is a cargo bike). I'm interested in EV trucks, but am very much in the "wait and see" camp as the market evolves. No way am I going to use an EV to tow a rated load for 90 minutes and then charge for an hour just to get another 90 minutes of towing. They need to fix the problem of range while towing (likely way larger battery) while also getting real-world charge times to ~30 minutes or less. IMO, this will require a 2-3x increase in battery energy density *and* gigawatt chargers.
And a really weird body design like the Cybertruck is a non-starter. Not because it looks weird, but because it greatly reduces the utility of the truck: if you can't easily put an aftermarket lumber rack and/or camper shell on it, then it's a non-starter for most truck people.
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And a really weird body design like the Cybertruck is a non-starter. Not because it looks weird, but because it greatly reduces the utility of the truck: if you can't easily put an aftermarket lumber rack and/or camper shell on it, then it's a non-starter for most truck people.
And there's still no clear answer about a 5th wheel or gooseneck hitch I've found. That's... not really optional for a lot of people who would otherwise be in the market. Any good sized trailer is going to be 5th wheel or gooseneck, and the silence on that is weird to me.
That's before you look at the bizarre bed shape that's compatible with ~nothing. Especially in the context of work trucks, where it makes the most sense!
I reserve the right to be wrong on this, but it really seems like Tesla built a truck for the "people who don't really need a truck"/"urban commuters in jacked up useless trucks," which strikes me as entirely the wrong market to target. I do wonder how many of the people on the design work for that have actually talked to people who use trucks as trucks.
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I found this video by "Engineering Explained" to be very well-balanced:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hatav_Rdnno
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And a really weird body design like the Cybertruck is a non-starter. Not because it looks weird, but because it greatly reduces the utility of the truck: if you can't easily put an aftermarket lumber rack and/or camper shell on it, then it's a non-starter for most truck people.
And there's still no clear answer about a 5th wheel or gooseneck hitch I've found. That's... not really optional for a lot of people who would otherwise be in the market. Any good sized trailer is going to be 5th wheel or gooseneck, and the silence on that is weird to me.
That's before you look at the bizarre bed shape that's compatible with ~nothing. Especially in the context of work trucks, where it makes the most sense!
I reserve the right to be wrong on this, but it really seems like Tesla built a truck for the "people who don't really need a truck"/"urban commuters in jacked up useless trucks," which strikes me as entirely the wrong market to target. I do wonder how many of the people on the design work for that have actually talked to people who use trucks as trucks.
Tesla truck is for weekend users - trips to the hardware store, hauling camping gear, towing jetskis to the lake, hauling dirtbikes, etc. The rest of the time its there just to look cool. A lifestyle accessory rather than a tool.
The rest of us use a cheap trailer to haul our weekend toys and tow that trailer with a wide variety of economical vehicles.
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And a really weird body design like the Cybertruck is a non-starter. Not because it looks weird, but because it greatly reduces the utility of the truck: if you can't easily put an aftermarket lumber rack and/or camper shell on it, then it's a non-starter for most truck people.
And there's still no clear answer about a 5th wheel or gooseneck hitch I've found. That's... not really optional for a lot of people who would otherwise be in the market. Any good sized trailer is going to be 5th wheel or gooseneck, and the silence on that is weird to me.
That's before you look at the bizarre bed shape that's compatible with ~nothing. Especially in the context of work trucks, where it makes the most sense!
I reserve the right to be wrong on this, but it really seems like Tesla built a truck for the "people who don't really need a truck"/"urban commuters in jacked up useless trucks," which strikes me as entirely the wrong market to target. I do wonder how many of the people on the design work for that have actually talked to people who use trucks as trucks.
Tesla truck is for weekend users - trips to the hardware store, hauling camping gear, towing jetskis to the lake, hauling dirtbikes, etc. The rest of the time its there just to look cool. A lifestyle accessory rather than a tool.
The rest of us use a cheap trailer to haul our weekend toys and tow that trailer with a wide variety of economical vehicles.
Hopefully only vehicles that can actually safely tow the particular load and not MMM scion death traps ;)
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Just for comparison, a Kenworth tractor (i.e. the front part of a tractor trailer) makes about 500 Hp. (I know, that's a big diesel with lots of torque. Electric engines have lots of torque too.)
Yeah, but that engine is making the better part of that 500hp for a million miles. Big difference from something like a Model S that can dump a ton of power, but overheats quickly.
Do Tesla batteries still overheat under high load? I had the impression that the battery cooling system had addressed this problem.
Linky: https://www.easyelectriccars.com/why-do-tesla-batteries-not-overheat-teslas-battery-cooling-system/ (https://www.easyelectriccars.com/why-do-tesla-batteries-not-overheat-teslas-battery-cooling-system/)
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RE Jeeps.
Jeeps are horrible unless you fit the following:
1. You actually drive it offroad
2. You actually drive it offroad
3. You actually drive it offroad
...
10. You want a convertible that can carry 5.
If they are lifted with 35/37" tires they get like 13 mpg, are loud as all get-out, and have bump-steer and wander all over the road at the slightest hint of a breeze.
That said, they are an absolute blast to drive off-road.
Ugh, I was "upgraded" to a big Jeep by a rental company not long ago. I wanted a compact and they were all excited to give me this monstrosity. The trip involved a lot of driving, so not only was I stuck with the ginormous beast that I could not possibly park, but I was also stuck with it's insane gas costs.
And yet the staff were so perplexed as to why I wasn't grateful for the "upgrade".
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Hopefully only vehicles that can actually safely tow the particular load and not MMM scion death traps ;)
Let's see...
Ford's demoed an electric F150 towing 1.25 million pounds, from a curb weight of, oh, probably 7000 lbs. Or about 175 pounds of trailer per pound of tow vehicle.
That means a 2500 pound Fit should be able to "tow" over 400,000 lbs!
Unpopular opinion on this forum, certainly, that one ought not tow beyond the tow rating, and that one should consider understanding the (rather radical) difference between how the US and Europe calculate tow ratings (different speeds, different trailer tongue weight percentages, different everything else) before spouting off about EU tow ratings...
I'll admit, somewhat grudgingly, that even cars with no tow rating can probably handle 500-1000 lbs safely enough on the road, though I might not take 1000 lbs on the interstate. But beyond that, there's a reason for tow ratings, you probably don't want to exceed 80% of it, and if you're going to tow anything that exceeds the tow vehicle weight, it probably should be with a 5th wheel or gooseneck hitch - or you should keep it slow. I'll hang 10k off my receiver on my truck for around town, but if you're going to ask me to do interstate, I'll have to consider the route carefully, and I really don't think I'd want to tow 10k through mountains on my truck without a 5th wheel trailer (I don't have a gooseneck adapter, though I'm sure I could find one for my rails if I needed it). The truck's about 8k fueled, so capable of controlling an awful lot, but I just don't like going anywhere near the limits of things like tow ratings. I know people run far overweight, I've met some, and... I just don't want to run that set of risks at this point in my life.
Do Tesla batteries still overheat under high load? I had the impression that the battery cooling system had addressed this problem.
That was a mostly useless link in the context of Teslas pulling power back because of thermal issues...
I don't think it's a battery pack issue. It's likely in the power electronics or the motor core. I haven't actually kept up with their latest development, but the Model S would overheat fairly quickly on a track and cut power rather dramatically. The term I heard was "Big Miata Mode," because it turned into a gutless wonder of an inertia car (just a very, very big one, though with an impressively low center of gravity). I'm of the faint impression the Model 3 significantly improves this issue, but I don't know details. I still don't expect it could put out full rated power for 20 miles up a steep grade doing 30mph, like a big truck diesel is asked to do regularly.
And yet the staff were so perplexed as to why I wasn't grateful for the "upgrade".
*shrug* I try to drive things I've not driven before as rentals. It's convinced me that most new trucks are basically a rehashed, rewarmed version of the 23 year old truck I have, with the exception of the newer EcoBoost F150s (I think I drove an FX 4x4 - whatever it was, I took the thing up a mountain road I was familiar with, had a blast, and then dropped it into 4WD and came down the backside on a rutted dirt road - handled both impressively).
I still don't understand who buys new Dodge pickups, though. The things are dreadful inside and out.
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And yet the staff were so perplexed as to why I wasn't grateful for the "upgrade".
*shrug* I try to drive things I've not driven before as rentals. It's convinced me that most new trucks are basically a rehashed, rewarmed version of the 23 year old truck I have, with the exception of the newer EcoBoost F150s (I think I drove an FX 4x4 - whatever it was, I took the thing up a mountain road I was familiar with, had a blast, and then dropped it into 4WD and came down the backside on a rutted dirt road - handled both impressively).
I still don't understand who buys new Dodge pickups, though. The things are dreadful inside and out.
There's trying new vehicles, and then there's being given a Jeep when you reserved a compact. What's worse, I learned to drive in a '89 Jeep Cherokee, which was fun, but the new Jeep was nothing like it :(
I do agree though, trying out different cars as rentals always reminds me how perfectly happy I am with my current car.
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And a really weird body design like the Cybertruck is a non-starter. Not because it looks weird, but because it greatly reduces the utility of the truck: if you can't easily put an aftermarket lumber rack and/or camper shell on it, then it's a non-starter for most truck people.
And there's still no clear answer about a 5th wheel or gooseneck hitch I've found. That's... not really optional for a lot of people who would otherwise be in the market. Any good sized trailer is going to be 5th wheel or gooseneck, and the silence on that is weird to me.
That's before you look at the bizarre bed shape that's compatible with ~nothing. Especially in the context of work trucks, where it makes the most sense!
I reserve the right to be wrong on this, but it really seems like Tesla built a truck for the "people who don't really need a truck"/"urban commuters in jacked up useless trucks," which strikes me as entirely the wrong market to target. I do wonder how many of the people on the design work for that have actually talked to people who use trucks as trucks.
Tesla truck is for weekend users - trips to the hardware store, hauling camping gear, towing jetskis to the lake, hauling dirtbikes, etc. The rest of the time its there just to look cool. A lifestyle accessory rather than a tool.
The rest of us use a cheap trailer to haul our weekend toys and tow that trailer with a wide variety of economical vehicles.
Hopefully only vehicles that can actually safely tow the particular load and not MMM scion death traps ;)
What? You don't tow pontoon boats with Fiat 500s?
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Hopefully only vehicles that can actually safely tow the particular load and not MMM scion death traps ;)
Let's see...
Ford's demoed an electric F150 towing 1.25 million pounds, from a curb weight of, oh, probably 7000 lbs. Or about 175 pounds of trailer per pound of tow vehicle.
That means a 2500 pound Fit should be able to "tow" over 400,000 lbs!
You don't need a big pickup. Buy a Corvair instead. They can pull jet planes... ;)
https://youtu.be/i8t2bDfmCQw?t=338
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I'll admit, somewhat grudgingly, that even cars with no tow rating can probably handle 500-1000 lbs safely enough on the road, though I might not take 1000 lbs on the interstate.
This seems kinda goofy and ridiculously overkill.
My understanding is that it's safe for five large men to drive in a small car, right? Five guys can easily weigh more than a thousand lbs . . . probably at least 200 lbs more if they're carrying luggage in the trunk . . . and I don't think many would have problems taking a car with five people in it on the interstate.
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I'll admit, somewhat grudgingly, that even cars with no tow rating can probably handle 500-1000 lbs safely enough on the road, though I might not take 1000 lbs on the interstate.
This seems kinda goofy and ridiculously overkill.
My understanding is that it's safe for five large men to drive in a small car, right? Five guys can easily weigh more than a thousand lbs . . . probably at least 200 lbs more if they're carrying luggage in the trunk . . . and I don't think many would have problems taking a car with five people in it on the interstate.
Those five bodies aren't hanging off the back off the vehicle and are instead distributed fairly evenly around the center of gravity. Nor do they create a large new surface area subject to crosswinds. Towing creates an entirely new dynamic system with lots of variables. People within the operating specs of their vehicles often get it wrong, as evidenced by the large number of improperly balanced/loaded trailers I see on the road. Get a tongue scale folks!
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I'll admit, somewhat grudgingly, that even cars with no tow rating can probably handle 500-1000 lbs safely enough on the road, though I might not take 1000 lbs on the interstate.
This seems kinda goofy and ridiculously overkill.
My understanding is that it's safe for five large men to drive in a small car, right? Five guys can easily weigh more than a thousand lbs . . . probably at least 200 lbs more if they're carrying luggage in the trunk . . . and I don't think many would have problems taking a car with five people in it on the interstate.
Those five bodies aren't hanging off the back off the vehicle and are instead distributed fairly evenly around the center of gravity. Nor do they create a large new surface area subject to crosswinds. Towing creates an entirely new dynamic system with lots of variables. People within the operating specs of their vehicles often get it wrong, as evidenced by the large number of improperly balanced/loaded trailers I see on the road. Get a tongue scale folks!
Loading-wise, I'd figure people in the car are way harder on everything than a trailer where additional wheels are eating the bulk of the load. So the concern isn't one of power then, it's of stresses to the frame then?
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I'll admit, somewhat grudgingly, that even cars with no tow rating can probably handle 500-1000 lbs safely enough on the road, though I might not take 1000 lbs on the interstate.
This seems kinda goofy and ridiculously overkill.
My understanding is that it's safe for five large men to drive in a small car, right? Five guys can easily weigh more than a thousand lbs . . . probably at least 200 lbs more if they're carrying luggage in the trunk . . . and I don't think many would have problems taking a car with five people in it on the interstate.
Those five bodies aren't hanging off the back off the vehicle and are instead distributed fairly evenly around the center of gravity. Nor do they create a large new surface area subject to crosswinds. Towing creates an entirely new dynamic system with lots of variables. People within the operating specs of their vehicles often get it wrong, as evidenced by the large number of improperly balanced/loaded trailers I see on the road. Get a tongue scale folks!
Loading-wise, I'd figure people in the car are way harder on everything than a trailer where additional wheels are eating the bulk of the load. So the concern isn't one of power then, it's of stresses to the frame then?
I think the concern is stability. If the trailer starts to sway due to winds or such if the tow vehicle is lightweight it can lose control. Sometimes this is called the tail wagging the dog. Example video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd-hUX8memY
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This seems kinda goofy and ridiculously overkill.
My understanding is that it's safe for five large men to drive in a small car, right? Five guys can easily weigh more than a thousand lbs . . . probably at least 200 lbs more if they're carrying luggage in the trunk . . . and I don't think many would have problems taking a car with five people in it on the interstate.
Your understanding is wrong. "If it fits, it flies!" is not a valid way to reason about vehicle payload capacity.
The GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) for small cars can be hard to find online, but typically, you've got around 800 lbs of useful payload capacity on small cars, sometimes a bit less if the car has a bunch of options like air conditioning. So your "five guys and luggage" is 50% over the rated payload capacity.
And I can also guess you've not really done this, because a small car, overloaded badly, can be pretty poorly behaved. I try pretty hard to avoid being overloaded, and if I'm on the heavy side, especially with a truck, I'm paying some attention to where the weight is loaded (if you're going to run heavy in a truck, load the weight as far forward as you can - this is why 5th wheel hitches and such are nice, because the extra weight is in front of the rear axle, so it's not unloading the front wheels). If I'm dealing with something heavy, I'll take a trailer.
Nothing bad happens immediately if you start running overweight by a few pounds, but just blindly asserting that you can totally ignore manufacturer vehicle limits based on your conceptions about what "should fit" is unwise. It's standard enough on this forum, though.
Yes, I'm pretty conservative on how I run vehicles. It's worked quite well for me so far. And if I am going to run somewhat overweight, I'm aware of it and make decisions based on that. I've got 300+ lbs difference between full tanks and empty tanks...
And while I'm at it, the payload capacity of trucks does vary wildly. If you've got a truck with all the bells and whistles, the gap between curb weight fully fueled and GVWR may be less than people assume. I've only got around 1500 lbs to play with on my truck (I don't have a perfect empty weight, but know roughly where it is based on a couple scales I've been over in various configurations). The bed will fit about 2 yards of material, but there aren't many thing I could put 2 yards of in the bed without being badly overweight.
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Loading-wise, I'd figure people in the car are way harder on everything than a trailer where additional wheels are eating the bulk of the load. So the concern isn't one of power then, it's of stresses to the frame then?
No, it's keeping control of the combo in various conditions.
If you don't know what you're talking about, there's no harm in asking questions, but you're pretty far off in the "Well, I don't see why this would be a problem, so clearly it's fine!" territory. I'm guessing you don't live anywhere near me, and I'm fairly happy with that.
Trailer stability at different speeds varies significantly, and this is where a lot of the difference between EU and US tow ratings come from - EU trailers tend to be balanced for far lower speeds (lighter tongue weights), and so what you can manage at 45 or 50mph on a back roads is rather different from what you can safely tow at 70+mph in the US. A trailer that tows fine at 45mph can easily be unstable at 75mph - and if the trailer starts wagging, you'd damned well better have the ability to bring the thing back under control. For a big trailer with independent brakes, activating the trailer brakes can help, but you don't have that option in cars because you don't have a brake controller, and rarely even have trailer brakes that are worth anything (the spring driven stuff on the tongue is... not exactly much good).
And if you're going to be towing a heavy trailer, the tow vehicle had better be able to maintain control of it in all conditions you find - including some pretty sketchy stuff like coming down a hard mountain grade in the wind. You'd better have enough brake mass on the tow vehicle to bring the trailer to a stop without working trailer brakes (they fail for a wide variety of usually annoying reasons). I guarantee that even if a truck can start towing a million pounds of train, they couldn't stop it from a reasonable speed without fading the brakes and probably lighting them on fire in the process.
It's complex, and just because you can get away with something in easy condition doesn't mean you're not a hazard on the road in more challenging conditions. And if you don't understand the difference, you can easily find yourself in that situation.
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I'll admit, somewhat grudgingly, that even cars with no tow rating can probably handle 500-1000 lbs safely enough on the road, though I might not take 1000 lbs on the interstate.
This seems kinda goofy and ridiculously overkill.
My understanding is that it's safe for five large men to drive in a small car, right? Five guys can easily weigh more than a thousand lbs . . . probably at least 200 lbs more if they're carrying luggage in the trunk . . . and I don't think many would have problems taking a car with five people in it on the interstate.
Those five bodies aren't hanging off the back off the vehicle and are instead distributed fairly evenly around the center of gravity. Nor do they create a large new surface area subject to crosswinds. Towing creates an entirely new dynamic system with lots of variables. People within the operating specs of their vehicles often get it wrong, as evidenced by the large number of improperly balanced/loaded trailers I see on the road. Get a tongue scale folks!
Loading-wise, I'd figure people in the car are way harder on everything than a trailer where additional wheels are eating the bulk of the load. So the concern isn't one of power then, it's of stresses to the frame then?
At US highway speeds a trailer should have about 10-15% of its total weight on the tongue. The heavier the trailer, the more weight on the very back of the car. This changes the weight distribution of the tow vehicle. The geometry and mechanics of every car is different and a lot has to do with wheelspan, the distance from the rear axle to the hitch, tire ratings, and suspension. Tow ratings aren't arbitrary, nor are they a conspiracy to sell trucks/SUVs. There are actual engineering standards for establishing these (e.g. https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j2807_201602/). Guessing the tow rating of an unrated vehicle is just that, guesswork. For liability reasons alone I would be ultra careful exceeding tow ratings, including tow ratings of zero.
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This seems kinda goofy and ridiculously overkill.
My understanding is that it's safe for five large men to drive in a small car, right? Five guys can easily weigh more than a thousand lbs . . . probably at least 200 lbs more if they're carrying luggage in the trunk . . . and I don't think many would have problems taking a car with five people in it on the interstate.
Your understanding is wrong. "If it fits, it flies!" is not a valid way to reason about vehicle payload capacity.
The GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) for small cars can be hard to find online, but typically, you've got around 800 lbs of useful payload capacity on small cars, sometimes a bit less if the car has a bunch of options like air conditioning. So your "five guys and luggage" is 50% over the rated payload capacity.
Huh. I'd have never thought that putting five large guys in a small car violates safety rules.
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I'll admit, somewhat grudgingly, that even cars with no tow rating can probably handle 500-1000 lbs safely enough on the road, though I might not take 1000 lbs on the interstate.
This seems kinda goofy and ridiculously overkill.
My understanding is that it's safe for five large men to drive in a small car, right? Five guys can easily weigh more than a thousand lbs . . . probably at least 200 lbs more if they're carrying luggage in the trunk . . . and I don't think many would have problems taking a car with five people in it on the interstate.
Those five bodies aren't hanging off the back off the vehicle and are instead distributed fairly evenly around the center of gravity. Nor do they create a large new surface area subject to crosswinds. Towing creates an entirely new dynamic system with lots of variables. People within the operating specs of their vehicles often get it wrong, as evidenced by the large number of improperly balanced/loaded trailers I see on the road. Get a tongue scale folks!
Loading-wise, I'd figure people in the car are way harder on everything than a trailer where additional wheels are eating the bulk of the load. So the concern isn't one of power then, it's of stresses to the frame then?
I think the concern is stability. If the trailer starts to sway due to winds or such if the tow vehicle is lightweight it can lose control. Sometimes this is called the tail wagging the dog. Example video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd-hUX8memY
Excellent video. I'd be willing to bet that the driver of the vehicle got everything hitched and loaded and thought everything was fine as he drove around town at low speeds.
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At US highway speeds a trailer should have about 10-15% of its total weight on the tongue. The heavier the trailer, the more weight on the very back of the car. This changes the weight distribution of the tow vehicle. The geometry and mechanics of every car is different and a lot has to do with wheelspan, the distance from the rear axle to the hitch, tire ratings, and suspension. Tow ratings aren't arbitrary, nor are they a conspiracy to sell trucks/SUVs. There are actual engineering standards for establishing these (e.g. https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j2807_201602/). Guessing the tow rating of an unrated vehicle is just that, guesswork. For liability reasons alone I would be ultra careful exceeding tow ratings, including tow ratings of zero.
I hadn't seen the J2807 standards - those look pretty reasonable, glancing at the summary of them online (not paying $80 for the standard for casual reading). And I still hold that about 80% of the tow rating is a good target for any sort of longer distance work.
10-15% for US tongue weight sounds right. I think the EU towing standards are in the 5% range - which means 100 lbs tongue weight on a 2000 trailer, which... well, that's scary. My trash trailer, empty, has a bit less weight up front than I'd like, but I don't ever tow it past about 50mph going to the dump, and the way we load it, the front is a lot heavier when it's loaded. I wouldn't take the thing on the highway, but it's well enough behaved for the roads it's on.
The liability reasons are certainly another reason to be careful with vehicle loading and towing. It likely ends badly for someone if they're overweight, towing a trailer their vehicle isn't rated for, and they do damage to someone else (or kill them). "But I thought it would be fine!" is not a particularly compelling civil defense.
Huh. I'd have never thought that putting five large guys in a small car violates safety rules.
If you own a car, go open the driver's door and look on one of the pillars - you should have a sticker with some stats on it. Typically, you'll have a front and rear axle max weight that you can (generally) ignore, and then a combined GVWR - which is lower than the sum of the front and rear axle weights.
Subtract out the curb weight of your vehicle (usually easy enough to find online these days), and you've got your payload capacity. I'll bet good money it's a lot lower than you thought it was.
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I'll admit, somewhat grudgingly, that even cars with no tow rating can probably handle 500-1000 lbs safely enough on the road, though I might not take 1000 lbs on the interstate.
This seems kinda goofy and ridiculously overkill.
My understanding is that it's safe for five large men to drive in a small car, right? Five guys can easily weigh more than a thousand lbs . . . probably at least 200 lbs more if they're carrying luggage in the trunk . . . and I don't think many would have problems taking a car with five people in it on the interstate.
Nope, it's not safe. A small car typically has a DRY/Empty load rating of 8 or 900 lbs. That capacity is used by:
* passengers
* cargo
* tongue weight
AND
* equipment seats, a/c, radios, etc.
* fluids (oil, gas, wiper fluid, everything)
Throwing 5 big guys and a couple hundred pounds of luggage and then topping of the gas tank gets really close to double the capacity of the vehicle.
This will certainly stress the mechanics of the vehicle causing excess wear and tear, but the safety problem is that this vehicle is going to be unable to properly handle that load. For example, it will be riding on its axles (because the suspension system is overloaded). This is going to severely affect the handling of the vehicle, and could even lead to catastrophic failure of the suspension system (a shock or strut ripping free of its mount or similar issues) if the overload is bad or the vehicle encounters adverse road conditions.
Always, always use the right tool for the job at hand. That means don't use an f-150 to commute to your office job, but it also means don't try to haul or tow big loads with your honda fit.
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The last of the H1 Hummers actually got a decent 300+ mile range with mild driving.
I'll take a Cybertruck over one of these any day.
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And I still hold that about 80% of the tow rating is a good target for any sort of longer distance work.
Agree. This is what I've always aimed for. Handling is so much nicer -- less stress and a way more enjoyable all around. I've had a few dicey situations, mostly high gusting wind, which made me thankful I wasn't pushing the limits.
The saying "penny wise and pound foolish" comes to mind for those overloading their vehicles to save a few bucks. I totally get that people don't want to own a truck/SUV for the few times a year they tow something, but for safety's sake, spend the $50 to rent a truck when you need it!
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I'll admit, somewhat grudgingly, that even cars with no tow rating can probably handle 500-1000 lbs safely enough on the road, though I might not take 1000 lbs on the interstate.
This seems kinda goofy and ridiculously overkill.
My understanding is that it's safe for five large men to drive in a small car, right? Five guys can easily weigh more than a thousand lbs . . . probably at least 200 lbs more if they're carrying luggage in the trunk . . . and I don't think many would have problems taking a car with five people in it on the interstate.
Those five bodies aren't hanging off the back off the vehicle and are instead distributed fairly evenly around the center of gravity. Nor do they create a large new surface area subject to crosswinds. Towing creates an entirely new dynamic system with lots of variables. People within the operating specs of their vehicles often get it wrong, as evidenced by the large number of improperly balanced/loaded trailers I see on the road. Get a tongue scale folks!
Loading-wise, I'd figure people in the car are way harder on everything than a trailer where additional wheels are eating the bulk of the load. So the concern isn't one of power then, it's of stresses to the frame then?
The limiting factor of towing is NOT power or stresses on the frame. We can easily build frames and engines that will handle pretty much anything. The limiting factor of towing is the ability of the tow vehicle to /anchor/ and control the towed load. This ability is defined by things like tow vehicle weight, wheelbase, axle width, braking hp, suspension, etc.
MMMs general advice of "my little scion has TONS of hp so i can tow a lot with it!" is dangerously wrong.
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Always, always use the right tool for the job at hand. That means don't use an f-150 to commute to your office job, but it also means don't try to haul or tow big loads with your honda fit.
It's just a weird blind spot this forum has about trucks, that there's no reason to own one, ever, you can do everything with a car, etc.
Part of the reason we're able to have the car we have (2012 Chevy Volt) is that anything it can't do, we can do with the truck. So things like ground clearance, cargo space, etc... just don't matter much. If the car can't do it, the truck can. So the car is optimized for the common case - round trips into town, with two kids, and a moderate amount of stuff (grocery run, small Costco run, small Home Depot run, etc). Anything it won't do, the truck will.
Dragging this back on topic, somewhat, I expect GMC will ensure the electric Hummer is a quite competent tow vehicle, in real world conditions.
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TIL apparently I need to buy a truck. I have been known to occasionally load our Corolla up with five large adults and some stuff in the trunk to drive around . . . which turns out to be unsafe and insane behavior. You mustachians think an F350 would be able to handle this abuse, or do I need to go bigger?
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lol I read "1000 hp" as "1000 hit points."
Gotta wait for gas to go up again someday I guess.
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RE Jeeps.
Jeeps are horrible unless you fit the following:
1. You actually drive it offroad
2. You actually drive it offroad
3. You actually drive it offroad
...
10. You want a convertible that can carry 5.
If they are lifted with 35/37" tires they get like 13 mpg, are loud as all get-out, and have bump-steer and wander all over the road at the slightest hint of a breeze.
That said, they are an absolute blast to drive off-road.
My Jeep (new 4dr Wrangler) is awesome. Great in the winter with 4WD, high ground clearance and rugged tires (stock not modified). Great in the summer with top and doors off. Can fit my whole family unlike the sports car. Great as a utility vehicle for hauling whatever I need. Plenty of suspension travel for our terrible roads. And yeah, great for off-road which I do on occasion though not as much as I’d like. Only thing it doesn’t do well is highway driving and gas mileage, but I don’t drive that much so I don’t care. Oh and the resale is stellar.
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TIL apparently I need to buy a truck. I have been known to occasionally load our Corolla up with five large adults and some stuff in the trunk to drive around . . . which turns out to be unsafe and insane behavior. You mustachians think an F350 would be able to handle this abuse, or do I need to go bigger?
You're steadfastly avoiding answering the question I asked, which is "What's your actual vehicle payload capacity?"
If I use a 2010 Corolla (https://www.autoblog.com/buy/2010-Toyota-Corolla-S__4dr_Sedan/specs/), the curb weight is 2767lb, the gross weight is 3836lb, for a total payload of around 1070 lbs. Subtract a tank of gas, you're in the 950-1000lb payload range, which is actually on the high end for cars. I don't know what year and trim you've got, but you can do the math yourself.
And the answer isn't an F350. They'll certainly carry the payload, but if the payload is mostly people, the right answer is a van or larger SUV. Rent one for the trips.
It's up to you, though obviously I have my opinion on overloaded vehicles. If you're comfortable blindly overloading a car and running it down the interstate with a couple other people you presumably like enough to cram into a car, well, that's your decision. I try to make a habit of not overloading vehicles, and if I am overloading a ground vehicle, I'm quite aware of what I'm doing, how it impacts the vehicle dynamics, and try to mitigate the impact as much as possible through route selection and loading. I don't get the impression you've ever thought about it, and, bluntly, you clearly don't know what you're talking about when it comes to trailers, trailer loading, balance, tow vehicle selection, etc. I don't know MMM's current thinking on trailers, but he's given some pretty poor advice on the topic before as well - or, at least, it's been interpreted poorly. Yes, you can put a trailer behind a car. No, you can't put a large, heavy trailer behind a car, load it up, and safely tow it at high speed. And anyone who goes on about the difference between US and EU towing standards as some conspiracy to sell trucks in the US flat out doesn't know what they're talking about.
The "holding costs" of an older truck, well maintained, with fairly low miles on it, range from minimal to negative. My truck hasn't lost much in value over the past 6 years because it's a low mileage truck, getting relatively few additional miles. You can go price out a tastefully modded 110k mile '97 F350 CCLB if you want, but good luck finding many below about 150k miles, and even those are rare.
Nobody here is arguing for commuting in a jacked up diesel with stacks in the bed. Believe me, most truck owners think those people are just as silly as non-truck owners. Except truck owners can give a far longer list of reasons. ;)
But I really don't think "staying within the manufacturer's designed limits of a vehicle" is that absurd of a position to take. I'm aware it's a minority opinion on this forum, when people are showing off their hatchbacks riding on the bump stops and bragging about how they drove it with 1200 pounds of firewood or whatever, but I'll still defend that position.
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Always, always use the right tool for the job at hand. That means don't use an f-150 to commute to your office job, but it also means don't try to haul or tow big loads with your honda fit.
It's just a weird blind spot this forum has about trucks, that there's no reason to own one, ever, you can do everything with a car, etc.
Part of the reason we're able to have the car we have (2012 Chevy Volt) is that anything it can't do, we can do with the truck. So things like ground clearance, cargo space, etc... just don't matter much. If the car can't do it, the truck can. So the car is optimized for the common case - round trips into town, with two kids, and a moderate amount of stuff (grocery run, small Costco run, small Home Depot run, etc). Anything it won't do, the truck will.
Dragging this back on topic, somewhat, I expect GMC will ensure the electric Hummer is a quite competent tow vehicle, in real world conditions.
Yeah, it's amazing how quickly rationality goes out the door when someone's beliefs are challenged.
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TIL apparently I need to buy a truck. I have been known to occasionally load our Corolla up with five large adults and some stuff in the trunk to drive around . . . which turns out to be unsafe and insane behavior. You mustachians think an F350 would be able to handle this abuse, or do I need to go bigger?
I have a hard time believing in a country filled with lawyers that a car specifically designed to hold five adults it is actually unsafe to do so. Heck we have quite a few plus sized Americans that would technically overload* that corolla with just 2 people.....This is also in a country where Toyota settled for a billion dollars with old people despite doing nothing wrong.
*1000#'s of concrete bags in the trunk is probably a bad idea.
Back to the Hummer, why not? Anyway we can move away from the brodozer culture is a good way!
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TIL apparently I need to buy a truck. I have been known to occasionally load our Corolla up with five large adults and some stuff in the trunk to drive around . . . which turns out to be unsafe and insane behavior. You mustachians think an F350 would be able to handle this abuse, or do I need to go bigger?
I have a hard time believing in a country filled with lawyers that a car specifically designed to hold five adults it is actually unsafe to do so. Heck we have quite a few plus sized Americans that would technically overload* that corolla with just 2 people.....This is also in a country where Toyota settled for a billion dollars with old people despite doing nothing wrong.
*1000#'s of concrete bags in the trunk is probably a bad idea.
Back to the Hummer, why not? Anyway we can move away from the brodozer culture is a good way!
The specs of every car are well published and are in the owner's manual and even placed on the vehicle. If someone tried to sue because they overloaded their vehicle they'd be laughed out of court.
You can't misuse a product and then blame the manufacturer.
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Always, always use the right tool for the job at hand. That means don't use an f-150 to commute to your office job, but it also means don't try to haul or tow big loads with your honda fit.
It's just a weird blind spot this forum has about trucks, that there's no reason to own one, ever, you can do everything with a car, etc.
Part of the reason we're able to have the car we have (2012 Chevy Volt) is that anything it can't do, we can do with the truck. So things like ground clearance, cargo space, etc... just don't matter much. If the car can't do it, the truck can. So the car is optimized for the common case - round trips into town, with two kids, and a moderate amount of stuff (grocery run, small Costco run, small Home Depot run, etc). Anything it won't do, the truck will.
Dragging this back on topic, somewhat, I expect GMC will ensure the electric Hummer is a quite competent tow vehicle, in real world conditions.
Don't we all live in cities with buses and streetcars? Don't we all live where everything can be delivered like pizza? ;)
Yes, life can be very different depending on where a Moustachian lives.
I've towed some big, stupid loads with a smallish vehicle. Also towed cross-continent with a quality rig.
Its one thing to make something move, its another to make it stop in a controlled manner.
I've towed 4500 pounds with a 3300 lb tow vehicle. Speeds were in the 25 mph range on flat ground in very light traffic, small town. Worked perfectly.
I prefer the math to be the opposite - heavy tow vehicle, light load, big brakes...
Plenty of You Tube compilation videos of tow jobs going wrong.
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f80/can-a-blazer-tow-a-5th-wheel-9357.html
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This seems kinda goofy and ridiculously overkill.
My understanding is that it's safe for five large men to drive in a small car, right? Five guys can easily weigh more than a thousand lbs . . . probably at least 200 lbs more if they're carrying luggage in the trunk . . . and I don't think many would have problems taking a car with five people in it on the interstate.
Your understanding is wrong. "If it fits, it flies!" is not a valid way to reason about vehicle payload capacity.
The GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) for small cars can be hard to find online, but typically, you've got around 800 lbs of useful payload capacity on small cars, sometimes a bit less if the car has a bunch of options like air conditioning. So your "five guys and luggage" is 50% over the rated payload capacity.
Huh. I'd have never thought that putting five large guys in a small car violates safety rules.
I have overloaded a small vehicle with groceries for a day care center. It definitely drives differently!
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TIL apparently I need to buy a truck. I have been known to occasionally load our Corolla up with five large adults and some stuff in the trunk to drive around . . . which turns out to be unsafe and insane behavior. You mustachians think an F350 would be able to handle this abuse, or do I need to go bigger?
I have a hard time believing in a country filled with lawyers that a car specifically designed to hold five adults it is actually unsafe to do so. Heck we have quite a few plus sized Americans that would technically overload* that corolla with just 2 people.....This is also in a country where Toyota settled for a billion dollars with old people despite doing nothing wrong.
*1000#'s of concrete bags in the trunk is probably a bad idea.
Back to the Hummer, why not? Anyway we can move away from the brodozer culture is a good way!
The specs of every car are well published and are in the owner's manual and even placed on the vehicle. If someone tried to sue because they overloaded their vehicle they'd be laughed out of court.
You can't misuse a product and then blame the manufacturer.
About 25 years ago I was driving to school and hit a pedestrian. I was not at fault, wasn't speeding and she was jaywalking in very dangerous location/situation. But even so, it was a 2-3 year legal ordeal involving multiple depositions and hearings. They probed every angle, down to details such as what I ate the day before, how much sleep I got, and so on. [Best advice I got from my attorney was to write down my recollection of all the event details ASAP and stick to these details...everything else is simply "I don't recall."] This experience gave me a profound respect for the legal process, what it's like to be on the record, and how anything that may have even remotely contributed to a crash is certain to come to light.
If you exceed the operating specs of a vehicle and this results in a crash not only will you not have a case against the manufacturer, I can almost guarantee that you the driver/owner will be liable and they will come after you. How would you feel looking loved ones of the deceased/injured in the eyes in a court of law while claiming that you didn't think GVWRs mattered, or a theory that tow ratings are a conspiracy to sell pickups/SUVs? It's not worth it.
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I have a hard time believing in a country filled with lawyers that a car specifically designed to hold five adults it is actually unsafe to do so.
Prove to me that a small car is "specifically designed to hold five adults." You can use whatever manufacturer-provided information you wish, but engineering data matters, marketing data doesn't. And I seriously doubt you'll find marketing materials showing a car overweight. They're not dumb.
"It has 5 seats, so it should hold 5 adults!" is not proof it's designed to hold 5 adults. It may very well be able to hold 5 small adults, but you can't just ignore the engineering data because you want to.
In small aircraft, there are planes with 4 seats that simply won't carry 4 adults. A Cessna 172 is mostly a "2+2" airplane - two adults up front, two kids in the back. You can sometimes fit four adults depending on size/weight/fuel, but if the question is "four adults in a 172," you'd better have your weight and balance sheets out, because you're probably going to be over gross, and you stand a good chance of having CG issues. Four adults and baggage? Just not something a 172 will do.
A 182 is a four adult airplane, but, again, check the W&B, because you're not going to take four adults, baggage, and full long range tanks without being badly overweight (unless they're particularly skinny adults).
Heck we have quite a few plus sized Americans that would technically overload* that corolla with just 2 people.....This is also in a country where Toyota settled for a billion dollars with old people despite doing nothing wrong.
I don't think you're fitting 400+ lb people in a small car.
And I'm going to assume you didn't read the reports on Toyota's accelerator system/firmware/etc, because that was a steaming pile of crap that shouldn't have been in a roadworthy vehicle in the first place. It was vulnerable to a wide variety of failure modes that would lead to unintended acceleration. Did any of those trip? No idea. But the design of that particular module was so awful that it could easily have been responsible for it.
I've towed 4500 pounds with a 3300 lb tow vehicle. Speeds were in the 25 mph range on flat ground in very light traffic, small town. Worked perfectly.
Yeah, but you understood the limitations and conditions, so were able to reason about it. I've flat towed a pickup with an old Subaru before - thing probably outweighed me by a factor of two, but it needed moving, I was around, and there was someone in it to run the brakes.
Also, that 5th wheel abomination you linked is one of the scariest things I've seen - and I've seen some pretty beat up cars in my day. Driven most of 'em.
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Planes ≠ Cars
Lets leave that one alone. I fully believe you are right about a 2+2 Cessna or whatever. I know nothing about planes. I obviously am not going to prove to you anything about load/weight in a car. But its clear that the intent is that cars are designed to hold 5 adults. Why you ask?
*Rant alert*
GD CAR SEATS! Cars are in fact built to hold ONLY full sized humans Likely between 75-250 pounds. I think I own maybe a dozen car seats? So I am a freakin expert in how stupid car seats are!
*Rant over*
I don't think either of us are going convince the other, and that is fine. IMO Cars are designed to hold 5 people they have 5 seats and 5 belts. If they could not do this there would be an epidemic of car crashes due to people simply filling the seats that they bought the car with.
BACK TO THE HUMMER!
I am at least very interested in how it turns out. I think EVs are pretty sweet and they do have a appealing value proposition, as well as evoking emotion and a cool factor.
However if i see one more guy post: "Well I pull a 50k# 5th wheel over the Rockies in winter for 900 miles with out ever stopping to pee, so this will never work"
I am going to internet face punch that guy. This EV is not for you, but it can be for lots of other people.
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TIL apparently I need to buy a truck. I have been known to occasionally load our Corolla up with five large adults and some stuff in the trunk to drive around . . . which turns out to be unsafe and insane behavior. You mustachians think an F350 would be able to handle this abuse, or do I need to go bigger?
This is a needlessly petulant reply. No on here is arguing that you need an F-350 to perform daily driving tasks. The only argument being made is to use the right tool for the job at hand. Overloading a corolla by 50-100% is the exact opposite of that just like using an F-350 to commute to a desk job is the exact opposite of that.
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I don't think either of us are going convince the other, and that is fine. IMO Cars are designed to hold 5 people they have 5 seats and 5 belts. If they could not do this there would be an epidemic of car crashes due to people simply filling the seats that they bought the car with.
Cars with 5 seating positions are indeed designed to carry 5 people, as long as those 5 people and all other cargo don't exceed the weight capacity of the vehicle. This is simple, undeniable fact not opinion.
And, unless you are talking about people who are more than a couple standard deviations from the norm, it works out pretty well. 5 people at an average of 150lbs + a couple hundred pounds of cargo is something that is within most car's capacity. A more typical 2 adults (130 + 170lbs) plus 2 kids (75 lbs each) is well within their capacity.
I mean, the notion you are going to fit 5 obese and/or extremely tall people in a small car is a joke to begin with.
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IMO Cars are designed to hold 5 people they have 5 seats and 5 belts.
"In your opinion." Cute. And your qualifications to decide that the people who designed and built the car don't know what they're talking about... are... an ability to count seats? Well, no point in automotive engineers, then!
In the (rather well informed) "opinion" of those who built your car, the designed gross vehicle weight is available on the door pillar, probably in your manual, etc, and it's your responsibility to load your vehicle within the bounds of that.
There are plenty of ways to load a car within the bounds provided, including with full sized people (I'll point to quite a few teenage boys I know as "adult sized" and "under 150 lbs").
However if i see one more guy post: "Well I pull a 50k# 5th wheel over the Rockies in winter for 900 miles with out ever stopping to pee, so this will never work"
You'll need an awful lot more than a pickup to tow a 50k lb trailer. That's up near what a fully loaded semi trailer runs. I'm not aware of any consumer pickup rated past about 30k, and even then you're into commercial requirements in a lot of states.
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And I'd just like to point out that if any of the "Who cares what the manufacturer's numbers say, I should be able to do what I want!" lean left, and are known to grumble about how conservatives "refuse to look at the data" on some topic or another, you're doing exactly the same thing in this thread. Refusing to look at hard data about your vehicle's load limits, and asserting that you know better.
I'm out. This thread has gotten stupid. Read your door pillar. It's literally there in black and white, from the people who built the vehicle.
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Huh, I thought everyone would be mocking the notion of a 1000 hp electric SUV. The original hummer was pretty ridiculous and this one sounds even more so. Can you even get a mount for a fifth wheel for a hummer?
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Huh, I thought everyone would be mocking the notion of a 1000 hp electric SUV. The original hummer was pretty ridiculous and this one sounds even more so. Can you even get a mount for a fifth wheel for a hummer?
No dumber than the Cybertruck, which a lot of people around here are excited about. Doesn't look like the Cybertruck can accommodate a 5th-wheel/goose-neck due to the body design, though still waiting to hear official word on this. If the Hummer pickup is anywhere near a normal shape (e.g. not a pyramid) then it should be compatible with a 5th-wheel. We can only wait until GM releases more specs.
It's a bit ridiculous that many people proclaimed Elon the savior of the planet when Cybertruck was announced, but now that GM has entered the market with the EV Hummer electric trucks/SUVs are now deemed selfish (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/m7q7eb/electric-or-not-big-suvs-are-inherently-selfish).
But all these EV trucks are stupidly expensive, and they will all share the same issues with range while towing and recharge times.
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If anyone wants to know the actual weight of their vehicle rather than guessing or even reading the data sticker, then take it to a local scale with a full tank of gas and the stuff you normally carry in the vehicle. Subtract that from the gross vehicle weight rating and there's your payload.
Differences between factory empty weight and what it actually weighs due to stuff always carried, mods, etc can range from negligible to significant. My F-350 weighs about 340 pounds more than the factory "empty" weight due to upgrades for towing, camper tie downs, tools, etc.
In my experience pulling into a local business that has a scale and asking politely tobriefly use it will be answered with a yes and no charge. Takes 3-4 minutes. Write it down in your owner's manual.
It's a very good idea to do the same for trailers and what they'll be carrying. I've weighed horse trailers, horses, boat trailers, boats, utility trailers, tractors, etc, in order to keep the load under control for the trailer rating, the tow vehicle rating, and the combined vehicle rating.
Yes, people actually do this in order to operate safely. Others just count the number of seats and seatbelts and figure they're good to go regardless (if they even think about it at all).
Which type would you rather be in front of on a long 8 degree downslope curving road on a 90 degree windy day at 75mph? Or, better yet, going uphill and seeing them coming the other way on a two lane road?
I'm guessing the e-Hummer and the Cybertruck will have pretty good tow ratings, but the size of the battery pack may hurt the carrying payload.
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My Jeep (new 4dr Wrangler) is awesome. Great in the winter with 4WD, high ground clearance and rugged tires (stock not modified). Great in the summer with top and doors off. Can fit my whole family unlike the sports car. Great as a utility vehicle for hauling whatever I need. Plenty of suspension travel for our terrible roads. And yeah, great for off-road which I do on occasion though not as much as I’d like. Only thing it doesn’t do well is highway driving and gas mileage, but I don’t drive that much so I don’t care. Oh and the resale is stellar.
Please stop you are making me want to buy one.
Actually I also want to buy this (Hyundai Kona Iron Man Edition)
https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/2019-hyundai-kona-iron-man-edition-ar184319.html
Luckily my frugality cancels out my desire for more vehicles (so far)
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If I use a 2010 Corolla, the curb weight is 2767lb, the gross weight is 3836lb, for a total payload of around 1070 lbs. Subtract a tank of gas, you're in the 950-1000lb payload range, which is actually on the high end for cars. I don't know what year and trim you've got, but you can do the math yourself.
I think curb weight includes at least some gas in the tank? Whatever "nominal tank capacity" means.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_weight
I looked up the numbers for our 2016 Golf R (small hatchback) and calculated a similar payload. It's enough to transport 5 average American men (a little uncomfortably) with no additional cargo. Or two men and two women plus 200-250 pounds of cargo. Or a couple with three kids and 300-400 pounds of cargo. That seems very reasonable for a small car to me. Looking at a few numbers it appears you need something like a Toyota Highlander to be within the payload capacity for 5 guys and ~300 pounds of cargo.
I agree @alienbogey that weighing your own car is the best way to be sure if you think you'll be close to the limits.
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Huh, I thought everyone would be mocking the notion of a 1000 hp electric SUV. The original hummer was pretty ridiculous and this one sounds even more so. Can you even get a mount for a fifth wheel for a hummer?
I would never own one, but I think it's a great thing. Maybe GM can produce an EV truck that won't be intentionally made far less useful because of dumb styling choices, unlike Tesla. My understanding is this thing will be offered in pretty much a standard short bed truck design - probably with silly styling but unless GM deviates far from the gas hummer it won't have functionality cripplingly stupid styling.
Which is better:
* A weekend warrior driving a 16-19mpg F-150 to work all week because he takes his camper/boat/etc. out a few weeks a year.
* A weekend warrior driving a far more efficient EV for the same usage pattern?
In any case, what GM is doing here is following Tesla's lead: building a high margin vehicle to absorb some of the R&D costs for drive train development. The more car makers out there pushing EV R&D the better off everyone will be, regardless of your vehicle needs or desires.
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My Jeep (new 4dr Wrangler) is awesome. Great in the winter with 4WD, high ground clearance and rugged tires (stock not modified). Great in the summer with top and doors off. Can fit my whole family unlike the sports car. Great as a utility vehicle for hauling whatever I need. Plenty of suspension travel for our terrible roads. And yeah, great for off-road which I do on occasion though not as much as I’d like. Only thing it doesn’t do well is highway driving and gas mileage, but I don’t drive that much so I don’t care. Oh and the resale is stellar.
Please stop you are making me want to buy one.
Actually I also want to buy this (Hyundai Kona Iron Man Edition)
https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/2019-hyundai-kona-iron-man-edition-ar184319.html
Luckily my frugality cancels out my desire for more vehicles (so far)
Lol, I expected to find a triathlon oriented car, not a Stark Industries branded Hyundai!
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RE Jeeps.
1. You actually drive it offroad
...
10. You want a convertible that can carry 5.
My Jeep (new 4dr Wrangler) is awesome. Great in the winter with 4WD, high ground clearance and rugged tires (stock not modified). Great in the summer with top and doors off. Can fit my whole family unlike the sports car. Great as a utility vehicle for hauling whatever I need. Plenty of suspension travel for our terrible roads. And yeah, great for off-road which I do on occasion though not as much as I’d like. Only thing it doesn’t do well is highway driving and gas mileage, but I don’t drive that much so I don’t care. Oh and the resale is stellar.
Emphasis mine. So you like that its a convertible that fits your family and you drive it off road. Highway driving is what most people do most of the time, hence my statements. I also love my wrangler 4 door, but I go off-road with it often with my son, and we have the top/doors off most of the summer. I had to take it on a 1600 mile road trip once though...that wasn't fun.
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Just for comparison, a Kenworth tractor (i.e. the front part of a tractor trailer) makes about 500 Hp. (I know, that's a big diesel with lots of torque. Electric engines have lots of torque too.)
The 1,000 hp number is a big waving flag with “vaporware” written on it. The point of this outrageous soon-to-be-forgotten claim is not to sell trucks, but to sell bonds. Similarly, Tesla’s weird design is not meant to be an optimal product (aerodynamics much?), it’s meant to justify their latest $2B share offering.
I recall a Doonsbury comic from circa 1999 where an internet company’s only product was its own stock. We’re back to that point.
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If I use a 2010 Corolla, the curb weight is 2767lb, the gross weight is 3836lb, for a total payload of around 1070 lbs. Subtract a tank of gas, you're in the 950-1000lb payload range, which is actually on the high end for cars. I don't know what year and trim you've got, but you can do the math yourself.
I think curb weight includes at least some gas in the tank? Whatever "nominal tank capacity" means.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_weight
I looked up the numbers for our 2016 Golf R (small hatchback) and calculated a similar payload. It's enough to transport 5 average American men (a little uncomfortably) with no additional cargo. Or two men and two women plus 200-250 pounds of cargo. Or a couple with three kids and 300-400 pounds of cargo. That seems very reasonable for a small car to me. Looking at a few numbers it appears you need something like a Toyota Highlander to be within the payload capacity for 5 guys and ~300 pounds of cargo.
I agree @alienbogey that weighing your own car is the best way to be sure if you think you'll be close to the limits.
I’m not understanding this flame war. As noted above, a 2010 Corolla has 5 adult sized seats and about 1,000lbs capacity. If the average weight of your 5 people is <200lbs, you’re within specs. Or if you have 2 x 200lb adults, you can carry about 600 additional pounds of beer kegs, stolen uranium, pigs, or groceries. Just about any material one could reasonably fit into the car other than metal, concrete, or rocks will not exceed the rating.
I get the sense the towing arguments that erupt here are something like “No you can’t pull a horse trailer through the Rocky Mountains with a Toyota Yaris!” versus “Yes I can use my Civic to pull a 200lb 4x8 trailer with 100lbs of plywood or a mower when me + trailer + load is maybe 500lbs total and the car is rated for 1000lbs and therefore a truck is never necessary [for me]!”
Both are reasonable, narrow, and completely different points.