Author Topic: The Fleishman Effect  (Read 5869 times)

charis

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The Fleishman Effect
« on: February 07, 2023, 08:47:47 AM »
https://www.thecut.com/2023/02/the-fleishman-is-in-trouble-effect.html

I haven't seen the show, but this article is mind boggling. I suspect it's not unique to middle aged new yorker families.

Weisass

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2023, 02:20:37 PM »
Man, I wish I was willing to pay for Hulu to watch this. looks good.

Kris

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2023, 02:28:22 PM »
Man, I wish I was willing to pay for Hulu to watch this. looks good.

My reaction as well.

dcheesi

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2023, 02:32:29 PM »
Man, I wish I was willing to pay for Hulu to watch this. looks good.
We tried one episode, didn't really get into it. Jesse Eisenberg as the the male lead just didn't work for me; I find him bland at the best of times, and he really didn't seem to fit here (even though apparently the author argued for his casting?)

But perhaps that's not as big an issue down the line, since the story apparently pivots towards the other characters eventually?

zhelud

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2023, 05:43:15 PM »
Man, I wish I was willing to pay for Hulu to watch this. looks good.

My reaction as well.

The book is great and available for free in the library. It's one of the best reads of the decade IMHO. You do have to accept that you are reading about a very specific subset of New Yorkers who live in a different universe as far as money is concerned. But the book's themes are universal- how can it be that two people can tell completely different stories of their marriage, and each is valid? What do you do in midlife when you realize that some paths are now permanently closed to you?

Kris

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2023, 06:32:34 PM »
Man, I wish I was willing to pay for Hulu to watch this. looks good.

My reaction as well.

The book is great and available for free in the library. It's one of the best reads of the decade IMHO. You do have to accept that you are reading about a very specific subset of New Yorkers who live in a different universe as far as money is concerned. But the book's themes are universal- how can it be that two people can tell completely different stories of their marriage, and each is valid? What do you do in midlife when you realize that some paths are now permanently closed to you?

Oooh. Thanks.

englishteacheralex

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2023, 06:42:26 PM »
Thanks! I just reserved the book at my library! I'd never heard of it, but the article made it sound neat.

Dollar Slice

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2023, 07:32:06 PM »
God, that article is depressing. You can have so much fun, learn so much, and do so much interesting stuff in NYC if you are an interesting person with curiosity, intelligence, initiative, hobbies, etc. And you don't have to spend that much money doing it. These people are just consumed with envy and greed and oneupsmanship.

Weisass

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2023, 07:53:38 PM »
Man, I wish I was willing to pay for Hulu to watch this. looks good.

My reaction as well.

The book is great and available for free in the library. It's one of the best reads of the decade IMHO. You do have to accept that you are reading about a very specific subset of New Yorkers who live in a different universe as far as money is concerned. But the book's themes are universal- how can it be that two people can tell completely different stories of their marriage, and each is valid? What do you do in midlife when you realize that some paths are now permanently closed to you?
Fiiiiiiiine… I guess I will let you make me read ;)

Extramedium

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2023, 07:59:43 PM »
LOVED this book a year or two ago.  Finished the show last week.  I thought it was really good, and does a fitting job showing you one side of the story, then unspooling that Toby doesn't really understand at all what is going on.  So good, though not always easy.

I'm not a New Yorker, of Jewish, or rich, but the specificity of the characters didn't matter much.  It's about people and marriages and divorce and middle age, and well told.

charis

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2023, 06:04:21 AM »
Some of the comments are interesting.  One reader, who was in the scene and escaped, talks about how they woke up by realizing that the fancy 40k preschool for which they were all competing and paying an advisor to get their 2 year olds into was staffed by overworked and underpaid teachers with less experience than their public school counterparts.  That's a hell of a scam that all these smart people are clamoring to be a part of.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2023, 07:45:58 AM by charis »

merula

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2023, 07:33:52 AM »
I'm always down for a good book recommendation*, and I don't need to empathize with the characters necessarily, but reading that article I found myself thinking that everyone in it was insular to the point of delusion. You can't live in a city or take a bath without $700k?!

Is the book like the article, taking these delusions at face value, or does it get more into the people and their motivations?

*I just finished Sirens & Muses by Antonia Angress and it was amazing, would highly recommend to anyone who likes more character-study-type novels. It's about art students, but it's also kind of a coming-of-age at any age book.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2023, 08:02:35 AM »
I browsed through the free Amazon preview but don't think I'll buy it. It's nothing but sex, sex, complain, complain. Sounds like a bore.

Metalcat

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2023, 08:37:34 AM »
God, that article is depressing. You can have so much fun, learn so much, and do so much interesting stuff in NYC if you are an interesting person with curiosity, intelligence, initiative, hobbies, etc. And you don't have to spend that much money doing it. These people are just consumed with envy and greed and oneupsmanship.

That article was insanely depressing.

I found the show insanely depressing as well even though it's the show doing the criticizing. I found the show really promoted settling, which kind of angered me.

I was like "WTF?" the antithesis of chasing miserable meritocratic bullshit isn't to just accept crappy lives and crappy marriages. At no point does the show posit any actual alternative to all of this misery and malaise. It just kind of shrugs at it.

I was also pissed off by the part that they quote in the article about Libby glorifying her youth and basically just accepting that life will never be as good as when you are young.

The fuck??

If your life is substantially more miserable than when you were in your 20s, then maybe, oh, I don't know, DO something about that??

I found the whole show criticizes, but also still promotes this whole notion of life being something that happens to you that you just need to find a way to cope with.

Yeah...uh...no thanks.

I mean, if this show is making the women stuck in this hellscape think twice about their circumstances, then that's great, I'm happy for that. But fuuuuuck, I found the show just so disappointing in how short it stopped in its criticism.

StarBright

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2023, 10:35:42 AM »
Cartier Bracelets and Nannies aside, I felt like I really recognized the feelings of the women in article if not their situations.

This is the one that stuck with me: "but the reality of my life is I live in the suburbs and haven’t taken a day off in two years. I get up at 6 a.m., and I work until she wakes up, then I do breakfast and get her ready, then the nanny comes, I work all day, I relieve the nanny, and then get back on my computer and work until midnight after my daughter goes to sleep. I do that every day,” she says. “And it’s still not enough."

If you swap out nanny for public school or daycare, then this is the life of so many people I know. And it is tied up with the pandemic, and lack of childcare options, and moving away from your support networks to get the jobs.

As ridiculous as the article feels, I find the discourse that has sprung up around it to be really interesting:

Anne Helen Petersen looped it to a study on how different classes feel about parenting.

One of my favorite authors commented  "did they think that because they were women...the issues of like, idk, Post-War American fiction about the dangers of bourgeois life did not...apply to them? Or what? Like???" - but like - Yes! I think so! I think meritocracy and the 90s really f*cked with a generation.

And another piece by someone who seemed to be resonating with the article in the same way I did talked about first generation UMC white collar women who, beyond supporting themselves and their kids, are also supporting their extended families and standing as the class bridge for loved ones.

Anyways - I enjoy the discourse, clutch my pearls at the Cartier, and appreciate that art is doing its job and spurring these conversations.

zhelud

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2023, 05:46:52 PM »
I'm always down for a good book recommendation*, and I don't need to empathize with the characters necessarily, but reading that article I found myself thinking that everyone in it was insular to the point of delusion. You can't live in a city or take a bath without $700k?!

Is the book like the article, taking these delusions at face value, or does it get more into the people and their motivations?

*I just finished Sirens & Muses by Antonia Angress and it was amazing, would highly recommend to anyone who likes more character-study-type novels. It's about art students, but it's also kind of a coming-of-age at any age book.

The article focuses on one aspect of the book- the insane hamster wheel that some wealthy Manhattanites have found themselves on. The book (and series) have universal themes- how two married people can have completely different views of their marriage, how it feels in midlife to realize that some paths are now closed to you. These are concepts that we can all relate to.

The characters live in a different world from most of us. Think of it as you would if you were reading a book set among reindeer herders in the Arctic. (Or if you are a reindeer herder in the Arctic, imagine reading a book set among coffee farmers in Ecuador, or something.)

charis

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2023, 07:17:47 PM »
I haven't read the book but started the show.  It may be disappointing in the end, but I'm finding it compelling right now for the family aspect.   Could be because I'm in the same year of marriage at the same age with the same aged children. Go figure. But I do find myself standing just outside the hamster wheel a bit. I'm in the third episode and interested in the wife's POV, because she's been painted as the devil at this point.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2023, 07:47:31 PM by charis »

Metalcat

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2023, 07:43:25 PM »
I haven't read the book but started the show.  It may be disappointing in the end, but I'm finding it compelling right now for the family aspect.   Could be because I'm in the same year of marriage at the same age with the same aged children. Go figure. But I do find myself standing just outside the hamster wheel a bit. I'm in the third episode and interested in the what the wife's POV, because she's been painted as the devil at this point.

Despite my rant, there are really good elements to the show and the wife's perspective is by far the best part. Not the least because Claire Danes is the most talented actor in the show and the director thoroughly capitalizes on that.

srrb

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2023, 10:08:45 PM »
I've just requested the book from the library. Should I read the book or watch the series first? I love a good middle-aged woman angst story -- being at the backend of that life stage myself, it always gives me lots to think about.

charis

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2023, 10:47:19 PM »
God, that article is depressing. You can have so much fun, learn so much, and do so much interesting stuff in NYC if you are an interesting person with curiosity, intelligence, initiative, hobbies, etc. And you don't have to spend that much money doing it. These people are just consumed with envy and greed and oneupsmanship.

That article was insanely depressing.

I found the show insanely depressing as well even though it's the show doing the criticizing. I found the show really promoted settling, which kind of angered me.

I was like "WTF?" the antithesis of chasing miserable meritocratic bullshit isn't to just accept crappy lives and crappy marriages. At no point does the show posit any actual alternative to all of this misery and malaise. It just kind of shrugs at it.

I was also pissed off by the part that they quote in the article about Libby glorifying her youth and basically just accepting that life will never be as good as when you are young.

The fuck??

If your life is substantially more miserable than when you were in your 20s, then maybe, oh, I don't know, DO something about that??

I found the whole show criticizes, but also still promotes this whole notion of life being something that happens to you that you just need to find a way to cope with.

Yeah...uh...no thanks.

I mean, if this show is making the women stuck in this hellscape think twice about their circumstances, then that's great, I'm happy for that. But fuuuuuck, I found the show just so disappointing in how short it stopped in its criticism.

So I finished the show and came to the opposite conclusion, at least with respect to the main couple, Toby and Rachel. I found Libby's character to be more interesting and less satisfying in the end, and that's one area, of a couple, where the show fell short for me.  I won't spoil anything, but the ending felt to me like a recognition of youthful optimism that was not a return to misery, aka their middle age normalcy. 

Extramedium

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2023, 02:55:39 PM »
I've just requested the book from the library. Should I read the book or watch the series first? I love a good middle-aged woman angst story -- being at the backend of that life stage myself, it always gives me lots to think about.

I think that -as a rule of thumb- it's always better to read the book first.  I've read the book, then seen the show, and liked both, but differently.  I agree with zhelud and StarBrite's comments.  This is ultimately a story about middle aged people, trying to figure out their lives: what makes them happy, what it means to be good as a parent or person or partner, how we actually connect with other people.

srrb

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2023, 08:20:18 PM »
I've just requested the book from the library. Should I read the book or watch the series first? I love a good middle-aged woman angst story -- being at the backend of that life stage myself, it always gives me lots to think about.

I think that -as a rule of thumb- it's always better to read the book first.  I've read the book, then seen the show, and liked both, but differently.  I agree with zhelud and StarBrite's comments.  This is ultimately a story about middle aged people, trying to figure out their lives: what makes them happy, what it means to be good as a parent or person or partner, how we actually connect with other people.
Thanks, I read the book last week. I've yet to watch the show. I'm not sure why, but I was quite irritated the story was so much about him and not enough about the women. He's so miserable, so angry, his wife is such a bitch, blah, blah, blah. I was glad at the end his friend realized her suburban life was fine and he was (and always had been) self-centered ... I guess so much time was spent in dissing his wife I wanted to know more about her side of the story.

charis

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2023, 10:16:11 PM »
I've just requested the book from the library. Should I read the book or watch the series first? I love a good middle-aged woman angst story -- being at the backend of that life stage myself, it always gives me lots to think about.

I think that -as a rule of thumb- it's always better to read the book first.  I've read the book, then seen the show, and liked both, but differently.  I agree with zhelud and StarBrite's comments.  This is ultimately a story about middle aged people, trying to figure out their lives: what makes them happy, what it means to be good as a parent or person or partner, how we actually connect with other people.
Thanks, I read the book last week. I've yet to watch the show. I'm not sure why, but I was quite irritated the story was so much about him and not enough about the women. He's so miserable, so angry, his wife is such a bitch, blah, blah, blah. I was glad at the end his friend realized her suburban life was fine and he was (and always had been) self-centered ... I guess so much time was spent in dissing his wife I wanted to know more about her side of the story.

You'll likely have the same complaint about the show.  But it's what also makes the wife's story so compelling and jarring, I suppose.  I didn't get the sense from the show that the suburban wife's life was fine though, I found the relationship with her husband to be unbearable to witness.  Maybe that's the issue with bringing a book "to life," things are lost in translation.

srrb

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2023, 11:40:09 PM »
I've just requested the book from the library. Should I read the book or watch the series first? I love a good middle-aged woman angst story -- being at the backend of that life stage myself, it always gives me lots to think about.

I think that -as a rule of thumb- it's always better to read the book first.  I've read the book, then seen the show, and liked both, but differently.  I agree with zhelud and StarBrite's comments.  This is ultimately a story about middle aged people, trying to figure out their lives: what makes them happy, what it means to be good as a parent or person or partner, how we actually connect with other people.
Thanks, I read the book last week. I've yet to watch the show. I'm not sure why, but I was quite irritated the story was so much about him and not enough about the women. He's so miserable, so angry, his wife is such a bitch, blah, blah, blah. I was glad at the end his friend realized her suburban life was fine and he was (and always had been) self-centered ... I guess so much time was spent in dissing his wife I wanted to know more about her side of the story.

You'll likely have the same complaint about the show.  But it's what also makes the wife's story so compelling and jarring, I suppose.  I didn't get the sense from the show that the suburban wife's life was fine though, I found the relationship with her husband to be unbearable to witness.  Maybe that's the issue with bringing a book "to life," things are lost in translation.

Yeah, "fine" was probably a bit strong, more like resigned as she realized she wasn't really missing out being young in NY again. And I was rooting for her see what an ass he is and not worth throwing her current life in the can for. It might not be good, but don't blow it up over romanticizing your time with him. Nonetheless, it was a compelling story and I finished the book in a couple of days. I'll look for other books by that author.

Extramedium

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2023, 06:31:29 AM »

[/quote]

Thanks, I read the book last week. I've yet to watch the show. I'm not sure why, but I was quite irritated the story was so much about him and not enough about the women. He's so miserable, so angry, his wife is such a bitch, blah, blah, blah. I was glad at the end his friend realized her suburban life was fine and he was (and always had been) self-centered ... I guess so much time was spent in dissing his wife I wanted to know more about her side of the story.
[/quote]

You'll likely have the same complaint about the show.  But it's what also makes the wife's story so compelling and jarring, I suppose.  I didn't get the sense from the show that the suburban wife's life was fine though, I found the relationship with her husband to be unbearable to witness.  Maybe that's the issue with bringing a book "to life," things are lost in translation.
[/quote]

Yeah, "fine" was probably a bit strong, more like resigned as she realized she wasn't really missing out being young in NY again. And I was rooting for her see what an ass he is and not worth throwing her current life in the can for. It might not be good, but don't blow it up over romanticizing your time with him. Nonetheless, it was a compelling story and I finished the book in a couple of days. I'll look for other books by that author.
[/quote]

Yes, the Rachel story is actually the “real story”, what’s really happening in the Fleischman family. Toby’s point of view is eventually revealed to be so narrow and delusional and self-righteous that he can’t even see it.  He’s a truly unreliable narrator.  But that big reveal is what made me think about what I miss from my own perspective. How do misunderstand my wife’s experience? My daughters’? My colleagues’?  It brilliantly shows how blind we can be, even when we think we understand someone.  I think that’s why it takes so long until Libby figures it out. And I think she just decided to forgive Toby and not worry about judgment, as she’s learning to forgive herself for the disappointment of her career stall.  I’m looking forward to seeing more from this author too.

srrb

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2023, 09:18:21 AM »
Yes, the Rachel story is actually the “real story”, what’s really happening in the Fleischman family. Toby’s point of view is eventually revealed to be so narrow and delusional and self-righteous that he can’t even see it.  He’s a truly unreliable narrator.  But that big reveal is what made me think about what I miss from my own perspective. How do misunderstand my wife’s experience? My daughters’? My colleagues’?  It brilliantly shows how blind we can be, even when we think we understand someone.  I think that’s why it takes so long until Libby figures it out. And I think she just decided to forgive Toby and not worry about judgment, as she’s learning to forgive herself for the disappointment of her career stall.  I’m looking forward to seeing more from this author too.

Yes, totally agree with your analysis.

StarBright

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2023, 09:34:54 AM »
Yes, the Rachel story is actually the “real story”, what’s really happening in the Fleischman family. Toby’s point of view is eventually revealed to be so narrow and delusional and self-righteous that he can’t even see it.  He’s a truly unreliable narrator.  But that big reveal is what made me think about what I miss from my own perspective. How do misunderstand my wife’s experience? My daughters’? My colleagues’?  It brilliantly shows how blind we can be, even when we think we understand someone.  I think that’s why it takes so long until Libby figures it out. And I think she just decided to forgive Toby and not worry about judgment, as she’s learning to forgive herself for the disappointment of her career stall.  I’m looking forward to seeing more from this author too.

Yes, totally agree with your analysis.

I was reading a story about the author and apparently Rachel's story is based on the author's own experience.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2023, 11:03:06 AM by StarBright »

englishteacheralex

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2023, 10:45:18 AM »
Got the book from the library, read the first two chapters last night. Yikes. Very compelling read, but definitely a bit off-putting. Interesting the spoiler here about the husband being an unreliable narrator. I should have realized that as I was reading. I am an extremely credulous reader, which always embarrasses me. I read so much that authors really shouldn't have such an easy time of taking me in.

englishteacheralex

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2023, 01:59:19 PM »
I do NOT have time to be reading this book right now, but it is such a fun read I can't put it down. I don't know what it is about unhappy midlife marriage that feels so compelling to me...my own midlife marriage is a very happy one. I think the show might annoy me, but the book! The writing is just *chef's kiss*.

englishteacheralex

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2023, 04:29:58 PM »
Just finished the book. Oh my word that was an enjoyable read. My husband always laughs at me when we watch movies and tv shows together because I usually stop watching if I think the behavior of the characters is overly terrible. "It's just a movie!" my husband will say. "It's for entertainment, not to model your life after!" With movies/shows I can't stand it. But with books I find it much easier to tolerate awful characters.

This book is full of such iffy characters making such terrible decisions but I absolutely loved it. Especially that first person narrator with all of her philosophy about middle aged motherhood.

I'm a middle aged working mom and I don't really feel anything she (Libby) feels, but it was incredibly fun to read her hot takes on growing irrelevant with age as a woman. I could see how I could have felt that way, if I had chosen a career I didn't love as much as teaching, or if I hadn't married the person I married.

I appreciated the tip off that Fleishman is an unreliable narrator because I think I would have been totally taken in had I not been warned.

As far as the book being anti-mustachian...I hardly registered that at all, although the tension Fleishman explores of hating the philosophy/social implications of materialism but loving the convenience of comfort and materialism was fun to think about.

Gosh I really loved this book. I don't think I'll be able to stand the show, and we don't have HBO anyway, but I'm so glad for the recommendation here.

charis

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2023, 05:14:19 PM »
It's actually on Hulu.  It seems like you are better off just reading the book, although I really like Claire Danes and Jesse Eisenberg, to a lesser extent (one of my favorite movies is the Squid and the Whale and this strikes me as a plausible extension of the teenage character that he played, not in background but personality-wise)

midweststache

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2023, 06:22:23 PM »
Cartier Bracelets and Nannies aside, I felt like I really recognized the feelings of the women in article if not their situations.

This is the one that stuck with me: "but the reality of my life is I live in the suburbs and haven’t taken a day off in two years. I get up at 6 a.m., and I work until she wakes up, then I do breakfast and get her ready, then the nanny comes, I work all day, I relieve the nanny, and then get back on my computer and work until midnight after my daughter goes to sleep. I do that every day,” she says. “And it’s still not enough."

If you swap out nanny for public school or daycare, then this is the life of so many people I know. And it is tied up with the pandemic, and lack of childcare options, and moving away from your support networks to get the jobs.

As ridiculous as the article feels, I find the discourse that has sprung up around it to be really interesting:

Anne Helen Petersen looped it to a study on how different classes feel about parenting.

One of my favorite authors commented  "did they think that because they were women...the issues of like, idk, Post-War American fiction about the dangers of bourgeois life did not...apply to them? Or what? Like???" - but like - Yes! I think so! I think meritocracy and the 90s really f*cked with a generation.

And another piece by someone who seemed to be resonating with the article in the same way I did talked about first generation UMC white collar women who, beyond supporting themselves and their kids, are also supporting their extended families and standing as the class bridge for loved ones.

Anyways - I enjoy the discourse, clutch my pearls at the Cartier, and appreciate that art is doing its job and spurring these conversations.

Are you referencing this Twitter thread? Because not gonna lie I have not laughed so hard (nor thought something was so relevant to this forum) with the "Not to be like, did you not read Theory of the Leisure Class, but did you not read Theory of the Leisure Class?????" tweet. The whole thread is gold.

https://twitter.com/blgtylr/status/1622768220879876097?fbclid=IwAR0msd1qMv1O5lCxTsynQxltqiTEByZcru3pdgE3n245bxqdoFEQeZ7FL5s

charis

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2023, 07:54:27 PM »
Cartier Bracelets and Nannies aside, I felt like I really recognized the feelings of the women in article if not their situations.

This is the one that stuck with me: "but the reality of my life is I live in the suburbs and haven’t taken a day off in two years. I get up at 6 a.m., and I work until she wakes up, then I do breakfast and get her ready, then the nanny comes, I work all day, I relieve the nanny, and then get back on my computer and work until midnight after my daughter goes to sleep. I do that every day,” she says. “And it’s still not enough."

If you swap out nanny for public school or daycare, then this is the life of so many people I know. And it is tied up with the pandemic, and lack of childcare options, and moving away from your support networks to get the jobs.

As ridiculous as the article feels, I find the discourse that has sprung up around it to be really interesting:

Anne Helen Petersen looped it to a study on how different classes feel about parenting.

One of my favorite authors commented  "did they think that because they were women...the issues of like, idk, Post-War American fiction about the dangers of bourgeois life did not...apply to them? Or what? Like???" - but like - Yes! I think so! I think meritocracy and the 90s really f*cked with a generation.

And another piece by someone who seemed to be resonating with the article in the same way I did talked about first generation UMC white collar women who, beyond supporting themselves and their kids, are also supporting their extended families and standing as the class bridge for loved ones.

Anyways - I enjoy the discourse, clutch my pearls at the Cartier, and appreciate that art is doing its job and spurring these conversations.

Are you referencing this Twitter thread? Because not gonna lie I have not laughed so hard (nor thought something was so relevant to this forum) with the "Not to be like, did you not read Theory of the Leisure Class, but did you not read Theory of the Leisure Class?????" tweet. The whole thread is gold.

https://twitter.com/blgtylr/status/1622768220879876097?fbclid=IwAR0msd1qMv1O5lCxTsynQxltqiTEByZcru3pdgE3n245bxqdoFEQeZ7FL5s

"Do rich people not read books?"

I reached 40 before fully grasping that many (most?) people don't read books. But in particular, the richer ones I know aren't reading about the dangers of *bourgeois life* or are even close to applying it to their own lives. 

I was an English major and I don't think I (currently) know more than one other person that's read Mrs. Dalloway.   

*Isn't this pretty much what we are doing here?

StarBright

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2023, 08:24:49 PM »
Cartier Bracelets and Nannies aside, I felt like I really recognized the feelings of the women in article if not their situations.

This is the one that stuck with me: "but the reality of my life is I live in the suburbs and haven’t taken a day off in two years. I get up at 6 a.m., and I work until she wakes up, then I do breakfast and get her ready, then the nanny comes, I work all day, I relieve the nanny, and then get back on my computer and work until midnight after my daughter goes to sleep. I do that every day,” she says. “And it’s still not enough."

If you swap out nanny for public school or daycare, then this is the life of so many people I know. And it is tied up with the pandemic, and lack of childcare options, and moving away from your support networks to get the jobs.

As ridiculous as the article feels, I find the discourse that has sprung up around it to be really interesting:

Anne Helen Petersen looped it to a study on how different classes feel about parenting.

One of my favorite authors commented  "did they think that because they were women...the issues of like, idk, Post-War American fiction about the dangers of bourgeois life did not...apply to them? Or what? Like???" - but like - Yes! I think so! I think meritocracy and the 90s really f*cked with a generation.

And another piece by someone who seemed to be resonating with the article in the same way I did talked about first generation UMC white collar women who, beyond supporting themselves and their kids, are also supporting their extended families and standing as the class bridge for loved ones.

Anyways - I enjoy the discourse, clutch my pearls at the Cartier, and appreciate that art is doing its job and spurring these conversations.

Are you referencing this Twitter thread? Because not gonna lie I have not laughed so hard (nor thought something was so relevant to this forum) with the "Not to be like, did you not read Theory of the Leisure Class, but did you not read Theory of the Leisure Class?????" tweet. The whole thread is gold.

https://twitter.com/blgtylr/status/1622768220879876097?fbclid=IwAR0msd1qMv1O5lCxTsynQxltqiTEByZcru3pdgE3n245bxqdoFEQeZ7FL5s

Yes! He is one of my favorite tweeters.

He was annoyed at something once (I can't even remember) and he was like "Somebody call Javert!" because that was the only police officer's name he knew. It will probably live in my head until I die.

getsorted

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Re: The Fleishman Effect
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2023, 02:17:35 PM »
Cartier Bracelets and Nannies aside, I felt like I really recognized the feelings of the women in article if not their situations.

This is the one that stuck with me: "but the reality of my life is I live in the suburbs and haven’t taken a day off in two years. I get up at 6 a.m., and I work until she wakes up, then I do breakfast and get her ready, then the nanny comes, I work all day, I relieve the nanny, and then get back on my computer and work until midnight after my daughter goes to sleep. I do that every day,” she says. “And it’s still not enough."

If you swap out nanny for public school or daycare, then this is the life of so many people I know. And it is tied up with the pandemic, and lack of childcare options, and moving away from your support networks to get the jobs.

As ridiculous as the article feels, I find the discourse that has sprung up around it to be really interesting:

Anne Helen Petersen looped it to a study on how different classes feel about parenting.

One of my favorite authors commented  "did they think that because they were women...the issues of like, idk, Post-War American fiction about the dangers of bourgeois life did not...apply to them? Or what? Like???" - but like - Yes! I think so! I think meritocracy and the 90s really f*cked with a generation.

And another piece by someone who seemed to be resonating with the article in the same way I did talked about first generation UMC white collar women who, beyond supporting themselves and their kids, are also supporting their extended families and standing as the class bridge for loved ones.

Anyways - I enjoy the discourse, clutch my pearls at the Cartier, and appreciate that art is doing its job and spurring these conversations.

Are you referencing this Twitter thread? Because not gonna lie I have not laughed so hard (nor thought something was so relevant to this forum) with the "Not to be like, did you not read Theory of the Leisure Class, but did you not read Theory of the Leisure Class?????" tweet. The whole thread is gold.

https://twitter.com/blgtylr/status/1622768220879876097?fbclid=IwAR0msd1qMv1O5lCxTsynQxltqiTEByZcru3pdgE3n245bxqdoFEQeZ7FL5s

I watched the first episode in this show (having had it somewhat spoiled beforehand) and couldn't continue because my post-divorce dating life has just been dating one Fleishman after another and slowly realizing that they are all very unreliable narrators. And also watching the marriages of my friends (who are definitely not on the Manhattan prestige hamster wheel) go down in flames along similar lines*-- characterizing a woman's reaction to all social pressure as weakness of character ("why should you care what they think?") or mental illness ("this is just anxiety"); characterizing a woman's reaction to a drastically uneven distribution of family labor as selfishness; the tea and sympathy for newly-single men for having to take on domestic labor that their wives used to do and take criticism over....

Re: reading books: It made me remember an agreement I made with my now-ex husband when we were doe-eyed young liberal arts students-- that we were aiming, in our life together, to shoot the rapids between "The Feminine Mystique" and "The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit." We didn't want to be slaves to capitalism or to each other. Frugality was a huge part of how we managed to do that.

*Obviously, my marriage also went down in flames, but for reasons unrelated to the pursuit of career success or the distribution of domestic labor.