Author Topic: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer  (Read 50930 times)

MrsPete

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #100 on: August 04, 2014, 09:35:37 AM »
You're a salaried employee, and get two months off in the summer as part of your contract. Yeah, that's paid vacation, regardless of how  your pay periods are structured (and many school districts have the option of 12 month pay).
Not according to my contract. 
I didn't get into teaching and coaching for the money, and you'll rarely hear me complain about it.  I love what I do.  As a Mustachian, even at my salary level, I'm thriving.  What truly irks me is the shit I hear from people who lack basic understanding of the facts. 
Yes, this exactly.  I definitely grow tired of being told "facts" about teaching that are blatant lies, usually repeated by people who will not listen to the truth. 
Teacher said, in effect, "US teachers make less than European teachers."  I posted a rebuttal from a European teaching organization showing that, with rare exception, American teachers make not only more, but significantly more than European teachers (and, for the most part, work far less days) . . .

I am an engineer.  I'm not an expert on teaching.  So it should be easy for someone "in the profession" to refute my "erroneous" statements if they are, in fact, erroneous.

So have at it, teach.  Show me where I'm wrong.
I have no real knowledge or interest in how teachers are paid in other countries; I assume that the differing variables are numerous and would muddy the waters anyway.  What I do know for a fact:  My daughter's English boyfriend has a sister who wants to become a teacher.  Like him, she also wants to move to America and become an American citizen.  At her mother's prodding, she did some investigation . . . and she decided that she does want to become a teacher, but she gave on the idea of doing it in America.

As someone "in the profession", I did refute your errors.  I gave you stats from the last Census. 
The average North Carolinian earns 53,046
The average North Carolinian household brings home 73,034
Which source did you use for these numbers? I am seeing less than 50k for the median NC household income from a few websites.
US Census Bureau.  It was days ago, and I don't remember the exact link, but I found it through Google.
I think teachers look at doctors, lawyers, scientists, MBAs, and engineers, see that they are paid less, then go into the "we are woefully underpaid" mantra.  They don't consider at the fact that those folks are, on average, better educated (and took far more rigorous curricula), and work more days and longer hours.  They just see that SOME professionals make more than they do, then start screaming "underpaid! underpaid!"  They don't even consider social workers, musicians, and many other degreed professionals that make far less on average than they do.  You'll never see a teacher look at a bunch of social workers or musicians in the symphony (who typically have similar education levels, but far lower salaries) and claim "we are overpaid!" :)
I don't deny that other professions are also underpaid, but that doesn't change the facts. 

Traditionally teaching has been a low-paying job -- but that low salary was balanced out by some very nice perks:  A mom-friendly, predictable schedule; security; good benefits.  Except for the schedule, those positives have been removed.  The news this week is that we're finally being given a small raise (after a 6-year salary freeze, during which insurance costs soared), but at the same time we are losing our longevity pay -- some people are actually getting a salary cut.  I'm getting a .3 raise -- again, after a 6-year salary freeze.  Other state employees had a two-year salary freeze, after which they were "caught up" on the salary scale, and they are NOT losing their longevity pay. 

Yes, the above poster who commented that some people just hate teachers -- possibly because of Mean Old Mrs. Crabtree back in elementary school -- is right.  We can point out numbers and facts, yet some people will never believe them. 

Scandium

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #101 on: August 04, 2014, 11:22:15 AM »
Every district I've work in requires pay over 12 months.

At my current smaller district I asked if I could do 10 months and she said no based on data from districts that do have 10 months and the issues you speak of.  Just crazy that educators can't budget for a two month gap.

Somewhat similar to the nonsense called "summer pay" they have in Norway (and maybe other places?). In the summer you get an extra paycheck for 10% of previous years salary. The brief time I worked there I was wondering how this worked, and what the point was. Of course it only means that they withhold and extra 10% of each paycheck, have an interest free loan for a year, and then pay it back to you! And this is on top of paid vacations, so not like people don't get paid those months. Just the benevolent state helping you save up for that extra spending..

All part of the general government policy that the citizens are too stupid to handle anything beyond bodily functions on their own.

libertarian4321

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #102 on: August 04, 2014, 02:31:11 PM »
Did you read your link?  From earlier in the thread, the average teacher makes $55k.  Here are some countries in Europe with higher average teacher salaries, according to your own link: Belgium (where upper secondary teachers average $72k), Denmark ($85k), Germany (no average, but the minimum is higher than the US average), Luxembourg, Austria, Finland, Norway.  The reason is looks like you don't know what you're talking about is that the data you used to support that "US teachers make more than almost all teachers in Europe " in fact shows noting of the sort! You missed at least 5 countries with higher average teacher salaries than the US, including the most populous one!

Belgium only posted averages for certain positions in certain parts of the country, so it's impossible to tell what the average for all teachers in all parts of the country is.  If you CHERRY PICK only the salaries in the Flemish region (generally, the wealthiest, most urban, and highest paid) of upper secondary teachers ONLY (those below secondary make less, on average than US teachers), those Upper secondary teachers in the Flemish region ONLY make more on average than the average US teacher.  That does NOT, however, mean that the average Belgian teacher makes more than the average US teacher.

Austria also included very incomplete data, so I could not make a determination (nor can you).

For Finland, the numbers varied widely.  Secondary teachers made FAR more than primary teachers.  However, it is logical to assume that there will be at least as many teachers, and students, in primary school as secondary (probably more).  Hence, I did an average.  Using an average, the Finish teachers made slightly less than American teachers.  I don't know how anyone could take those numbers and project that Finnish teachers are far better paid than American teachers (as the OP implied).

You got me on Denmark.  I missed that one.

Okay, so in Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway, teachers make more than in the USA.  Hell, I'll even stipulate that they make more in Austria, Belgium, and Finland (though there is not enough evidence to really show that.

Those 5 SMALL countries have a combined population of about 36 million.  A bit more than half of the population of Italy alone (where teachers make FAR less than in the USA).  The data are incomplete on a number of European nations, including a couple of large ones.  But the data that is available clearly suggests that teachers in MOST European nations make LESS than in the USA (and many make far less), and even if the few where they make more, it's just a tiny bit more (with the exception of tiny nations like Luxembourg, Norway, and Denmark).

That is NOT convincing evidence that Europeans "value teachers" and pay significantly more to their teachers, as the OP haughtily implied.

What you said:
Quote
Actually, US teachers make more, on average, than almost all teachers in Europe.  Far more than most.  The only European nations with higher average teacher salaries than the US are Luxembourg (which is a country in name only- it's the size of a medium sized US city) and Norway (which is floating in oil money).  Teachers in most of Europe make vastly less than their American counterparts.

http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education/eurydice/documents/facts_and_figures/salaries.pdf

And, of course, those European teachers spend far more days in the classroom than US teachers, as the US "summer vacation" doesn't exist in most (all?) European nations.

I'm not responsible for you providing evidence that is insufficient to justify your conclusion.  You're making statements without sufficient evidence.  If the data isn't of sufficient quality, then you shouldn't have tried to use it to prove your point – which, again, was that:
 
Quote
US teachers make more, on average, than almost all teachers in Europe.  Far more than most.

The evidence I presented is adequate to support my statements.

In a couple of TINY countries in Europe, teachers clearly get paid more than the USA (e.g. Luxembourg, Norway, and Denmark).

In the larger wealthy countries, the evidence is not complete, but the salaries appear to be similar or lower than in the USA.  Germany (the largest nation) is inconclusive, but they probably make similar salaries to Americans.  In France and the UK, the evidence is inconclusive, but they probably make slightly less than the US.  In Italy, Portugal, Spain, they make significantly less than in the USA.

In many European nations, it isn't even close, teachers make far less than their US counterparts.

Hence, to claim that teacher salaries are significantly higher in Europe than the USA, as the previous poster (not you) implied, is incorrect.  At best, you could surmise that in certain large, rich European nations, salaries are COMPETITIVE (not vastly superior) to those in the USA.

libertarian4321

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #103 on: August 04, 2014, 02:41:46 PM »
You're a salaried employee, and get two months off in the summer as part of your contract. Yeah, that's paid vacation, regardless of how  your pay periods are structured (and many school districts have the option of 12 month pay).
Not according to my contract. 
I didn't get into teaching and coaching for the money, and you'll rarely hear me complain about it.  I love what I do.  As a Mustachian, even at my salary level, I'm thriving.  What truly irks me is the shit I hear from people who lack basic understanding of the facts. 
Yes, this exactly.  I definitely grow tired of being told "facts" about teaching that are blatant lies, usually repeated by people who will not listen to the truth. 
Teacher said, in effect, "US teachers make less than European teachers."  I posted a rebuttal from a European teaching organization showing that, with rare exception, American teachers make not only more, but significantly more than European teachers (and, for the most part, work far less days) . . .

I am an engineer.  I'm not an expert on teaching.  So it should be easy for someone "in the profession" to refute my "erroneous" statements if they are, in fact, erroneous.

So have at it, teach.  Show me where I'm wrong.
I have no real knowledge or interest in how teachers are paid in other countries; I assume that the differing variables are numerous and would muddy the waters anyway.  What I do know for a fact:  My daughter's English boyfriend has a sister who wants to become a teacher.  Like him, she also wants to move to America and become an American citizen.  At her mother's prodding, she did some investigation . . . and she decided that she does want to become a teacher, but she gave on the idea of doing it in America.

As someone "in the profession", I did refute your errors.  I gave you stats from the last Census. 
The average North Carolinian earns 53,046
The average North Carolinian household brings home 73,034
Which source did you use for these numbers? I am seeing less than 50k for the median NC household income from a few websites.
US Census Bureau.  It was days ago, and I don't remember the exact link, but I found it through Google.
I think teachers look at doctors, lawyers, scientists, MBAs, and engineers, see that they are paid less, then go into the "we are woefully underpaid" mantra.  They don't consider at the fact that those folks are, on average, better educated (and took far more rigorous curricula), and work more days and longer hours.  They just see that SOME professionals make more than they do, then start screaming "underpaid! underpaid!"  They don't even consider social workers, musicians, and many other degreed professionals that make far less on average than they do.  You'll never see a teacher look at a bunch of social workers or musicians in the symphony (who typically have similar education levels, but far lower salaries) and claim "we are overpaid!" :)
I don't deny that other professions are also underpaid, but that doesn't change the facts. 

Traditionally teaching has been a low-paying job -- but that low salary was balanced out by some very nice perks:  A mom-friendly, predictable schedule; security; good benefits.  Except for the schedule, those positives have been removed.  The news this week is that we're finally being given a small raise (after a 6-year salary freeze, during which insurance costs soared), but at the same time we are losing our longevity pay -- some people are actually getting a salary cut.  I'm getting a .3 raise -- again, after a 6-year salary freeze.  Other state employees had a two-year salary freeze, after which they were "caught up" on the salary scale, and they are NOT losing their longevity pay. 

Yes, the above poster who commented that some people just hate teachers -- possibly because of Mean Old Mrs. Crabtree back in elementary school -- is right.  We can point out numbers and facts, yet some people will never believe them.

I'm not sure we totally disagree.  I've said that teachers get paid a bit less than average for their level of education.  And, as you said, the job has some perks that other jobs don't have.  I also realize that since the recession, things have been a bit less rosy for teachers (cut backs and the like).

But still, their salary is a BIT less than average for the education level.  It ain't "Holy Cow, we are woefully underpaid compared to our peers!  Life is so unfair!  Why are teachers being treated so badly?"  My point is that teachers scream bloody murder at the drop of a hat about how poorly they are treated and how badly they are paid, when, in fact, they are doing a whole lot better than a lot of other folks.

As I've said time and time again, you won't get rich teaching, but you won't starve, either.  So tone down the constant "woe is me" rhetoric.  Plenty of other people have it far worse than you do...

MoneyCat

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #104 on: August 04, 2014, 06:55:58 PM »
Traditionally teaching has been a low-paying job -- but that low salary was balanced out by some very nice perks:  A mom-friendly, predictable schedule; security; good benefits.  Except for the schedule, those positives have been removed.  The news this week is that we're finally being given a small raise (after a 6-year salary freeze, during which insurance costs soared), but at the same time we are losing our longevity pay -- some people are actually getting a salary cut.  I'm getting a .3 raise -- again, after a 6-year salary freeze.  Other state employees had a two-year salary freeze, after which they were "caught up" on the salary scale, and they are NOT losing their longevity pay. 

Yes, the above poster who commented that some people just hate teachers -- possibly because of Mean Old Mrs. Crabtree back in elementary school -- is right.  We can point out numbers and facts, yet some people will never believe them.

It's not really worth arguing with people about any of this anymore, because they come up with whatever half-baked statistics they want to justify whatever reformy nonsense and anti-teacher rhetoric they want to believe and no amount of contrary fact-based information combined with real-life experience will ever dissuade them from their ideology.  Teachers have zero power, but they do represent a large portion of the remaining 11.3% of the American workforce that is Unionized, so we are going to be destroyed by the corporations that own the US government, so the USA can be more like the Third World countries that the corporations admire.  I have just gotten to the point where I have accepted that public education as we know it is going to be completely destroyed along with a large chunk of the middle-class jobs that depend on it.  I am getting out while the getting is good and I am going to sit back and laugh at all the "reformers" while I watch American education go up in flames.  It's basically all going back to the way it was over a century ago and American educational competitiveness will be at an end.

iris lily

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #105 on: August 04, 2014, 07:28:03 PM »

...  It's basically all going back to the way it was over a century ago and American educational competitiveness will be at an end.

This will sound snarky, but in some ways, education of nearly a century ago was pretty good. Better than now. At least, for the average learner.

My father would have started his education in the 1920's. He was a farm kid, went to a one room school for his early years, and then to the town's high school. He wasn't a scholar but was of at least average intelligence and I always had a sense that he had a thorough grounding in some areas that I did not. Or maybe I just daydreamed my way through school, which I will freely admit is possible.


Brad_H

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #106 on: August 05, 2014, 09:48:14 AM »
It's basically all going back to the way it was over a century ago and American educational competitiveness will be at an end.

It's Not a Contest

beltim

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #107 on: August 05, 2014, 10:07:56 AM »
Hence, to claim that teacher salaries are significantly higher in Europe than the USA, as the previous poster (not you) implied, is incorrect.  At best, you could surmise that in certain large, rich European nations, salaries are COMPETITIVE (not vastly superior) to those in the USA.

If this is all you're saying, that's fine, and an appropriate statement with the data..  That's just not what I responded to.

fartface

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #108 on: August 05, 2014, 01:20:45 PM »
I guess I'll share some personal information and comment on the original post.

On June 13th I was paid the equivalent of five paychecks.  I immediately transferred $5000 (most of it) to my "high yield" savings (pays a whopping 1%). 

Just made the August mortgage payment and credit card payment (paid in full each month - of course). These are my last "big" bills until my Sept. 1st paycheck arrives.

The $5000 I 'stached into savings on June 13th is still sitting there. Yeah, I'm pretty proud of myself...but it's not my first rodeo. I've been managing "summer pay" for 17 years now.

Now, a colleague and close friend (who makes about $10,000 more than me and saves nothing in her 403b) blew through all her $$$ within one month. She took an extended two week trip to Disney with the fam...had a gay old time posting "check ins" at expensive restaurants/bars EVERY DAY plus weekly movie reviews on Facebook. She's currently looking to 'consolidate' all her CC debt into a home equity loan, problem is, the home she's lived in for 15 years doesn't have enough equity for her to qualify. I don't know what the hell she's going to do. Oh wait, I do know...apply for and open another credit card (if she can get approved). That oughta tide her over 'til Sept. 1st.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 04:23:07 PM by fartface »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #109 on: August 06, 2014, 06:07:32 AM »
RE money management, teachers are like anyone else - some are good at managing money, some are not.  When we (husband and I) first started teaching CEGEP, our salaries were by cheque - at the end of the school year, we got all the summer cheques at once.  My DH would have spent it all, I made sure that the money came out gradually, so we still had rent/mortgage money at the end.  When the Colleges switched to direct deposit, that ended.

Theoretically we worked 37.5 hours/week.  In reality we worked 50-60 hours/week during the semester (i.e. until marks go in, not when the students are done), and 40-50 hours/week between semesters.  We marked over our Christmas "vacations" - marks were due in January 2, exams ended December 23 or 23.  Same thing in the spring, classes ended in April, exams ended in May, we were madly marking to get marks in by the deadline, then doing all the prep for the next fall.  Exam time/marks due is for teachers like tax deadlines are for accountants, you are going all out.
We were teaching in the sciences, that meant making sure in May/June that all the fall labs were planned, lab materials ordered with delivery dates set, lab manuals in to the print shop, etc. - no way could that wait until we came back, even though we were back two weeks before classes started.

People with teachers in the family know the insane hours that they work, others only see the visible hours.  Our DD at about age 8 said she was NEVER going to be a teacher - standing there after dinner looking at both parents doing schoolwork for another 3 hours.  We had science people come in to teach one course, they thought it would be easy - they usually lasted one semester and we never saw them again.

Re salaries, here are the Canadian ones - some Provinces have more money than others, some have higher COLs, salaries reflect this.  Remember right now the exchange rate is 0.91, so $50,000 C is about $45,000 US.  Education years are AFTER high school.

From: http://resource.educationcanada.com/salaries.html/
Salaries

In six of the provinces and the two territories, basic salary scales and fringe benefits are established through negotiations between the teachers' association and representatives of the government. In some cases, supplementary negotiations take place at the school board level concerning additional fringe benefits and conditions of work. In British Columbia, Alberta, Manitoba and Ontario, all negotiations take place at the local or regional level.

Average Teacher Salaries by Province

     4 Years of Education    6 Years of Education
                               Minimum    Maximum    Minimum    Maximum
Alberta (2003-04
simple average)         $43,653    $68,967    $48,779    $74,126
British Columbia    $37,908    $56,743    $45,506    $70,684
Saskatchewan            $38,700    $59,500    $43,570    $66,103
Manitoba                    $37,948    $58,737    $42,887    $65,310
Ontario                    $37,043    $62,625    $42,258    $73,472
Quebec                    $36,196    $58,633    $41,982    $63,527
New Brunswick            $33,776    $52,231    $40,482    $62,292
Nova Scotia            $35,906    $57,376    $44,168    $67,978
Prince Edward Island    $30,341    $46,871    $38,480    $59,657
Newfoundland
& Labrador            $34,838    $45,264    $45,280    $60,212
Yukon                    $56,717    $83,428    $62,074    $90,663

Alberta teacher salaries are based on agreements in place as of September 2004 – 44 settlements

Ontario teacher salaries are based on the average of elementary and secondary figures

Teachers' salaries increased an average of 2.9% per year between 1999 and 2003, slightly above the 2.7% CPI average annual growth over the same period. These increases reflect a number of retroactive collective agreements. Teachers' salaries had increased by less than 1% per year from 1994 to 1998.

Fringe Benefits:

Fringe benefits provided for in collective agreements may, but do not necessarily, include the following:

    compassionate leave
    supplementary medical insurance
    cumulative sick leave
    longterm disability insurance
    maternity leave
    retirement gratuities
    sabbatical and study leave
    life insurance
    dental insurance

General Social Security

As citizens of Canada, teachers are required to participate in the social security programs of the federal government. These include Unemployment Insurance and the Canada/Quebec Pension Plan. The Unemployment Insurance plan provides benefits to persons who are unemployed through maternity or illness, as well as through general unavailability of suitable work. The Canada/Quebec Pension Plan provides a basic minimum retirement allowance and, in addition, some disability and survivors' benefits.

Teachers also participate in the provincial hospital and medical insurance plans. The costs of these plans are shared by the federal and provincial governments. The plans cover the basic expenses of hospital accommodation and physicians' services. Details of coverage vary from province to province.

anisotropy

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #110 on: August 06, 2014, 09:41:11 AM »
Hi RetiredAt63,

I think your data is a little outdated. As can be seen in a more recent agreement, teachers (Albertan) salary increased by quite a bit:

http://www.cbe.ab.ca/careers/pdfs/Collective_Agreement_ATA.pdf
Article 3, page 4

                                  4Years of Education    6 Years of Education
                               Minimum    Maximum    Minimum    Maximum (all $CAD)
Alberta (2003-04
simple average)         $43,653    $68,967    $48,779    $74,126

Updated 2014 $57,896    $92,071    $65,171    $99,344


Please note these are base pays, starting September 1st, 2015, teachers with 6 years of education and 10 year exp will make $101k base (around 35 years old).

What do I personally think of this? They are paid too much, regardless of 4 or 6 year of education they should all be paid the same, ie, the 4 yr pay scale. From there I am ok with teachers making 101k base with 20 year exp.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #111 on: August 06, 2014, 07:57:57 PM »
You are right, I should have checked the dates more carefully.  Things on the internet live forever!

I obviously should have moved to Alberta when I graduated, instead of staying in Quebec - even in the early 1980s a Community College teacher there was making $10,000 more than an equivalent CEGEP teacher.  Think of the wonderful pension I would have now, I would be beyond rich - or retired a lot sooner  ;-)

The difference between 4 and 6 years could well be additional teacher training, or a higher level degree - which would be especially useful in the later years of high school.  I have seen some pretty bad science teaching because the teacher was not that much more knowledgeable than a really bright senior high school student.  For the same reason, ideally some one teaching Science in CEGEP has at least an M.Sc., because many of the students will be going into high level education (i.e. medicine for the Biology students) and need a good foundation.  I have seen the results in CEGEP when the faculty were barely ahead of the students, not pretty.  Please do not try to dumb down the teacher qualifications by penalizing those who want to be better prepared.

Also, to stay on topic for this financial forum, someone with 6 years of post HS education is starting their working career that much later, with all the penalties that causes, including reduced CPP benefits unless they work longer.  Someone with 6 years post HS is making just over $7000 more for spending an extra 2 years in school, and retiring 2 years later for the same years of service.  Not a lot of financial benefit for that person, so other reasons must be in there - like learning more to be a better teacher?  I am not being unrealistic here, I did my last two degrees just for that, they did not net me much in the way of a salary increase (last one gained me nothing in terms of money, masses of other benefits).

Hi RetiredAt63,

I think your data is a little outdated. As can be seen in a more recent agreement, teachers (Albertan) salary increased by quite a bit:

http://www.cbe.ab.ca/careers/pdfs/Collective_Agreement_ATA.pdf
Article 3, page 4

                                  4Years of Education    6 Years of Education
                               Minimum    Maximum    Minimum    Maximum (all $CAD)
Alberta (2003-04
simple average)         $43,653    $68,967    $48,779    $74,126

Updated 2014 $57,896    $92,071    $65,171    $99,344


Please note these are base pays, starting September 1st, 2015, teachers with 6 years of education and 10 year exp will make $101k base (around 35 years old).

What do I personally think of this? They are paid too much, regardless of 4 or 6 year of education they should all be paid the same, ie, the 4 yr pay scale. From there I am ok with teachers making 101k base with 20 year exp.

iwasjustwondering

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #112 on: August 07, 2014, 08:33:37 AM »
Traditionally teaching has been a low-paying job -- but that low salary was balanced out by some very nice perks:  A mom-friendly, predictable schedule; security; good benefits.  Except for the schedule, those positives have been removed.  The news this week is that we're finally being given a small raise (after a 6-year salary freeze, during which insurance costs soared), but at the same time we are losing our longevity pay -- some people are actually getting a salary cut.  I'm getting a .3 raise -- again, after a 6-year salary freeze.  Other state employees had a two-year salary freeze, after which they were "caught up" on the salary scale, and they are NOT losing their longevity pay. 

Yes, the above poster who commented that some people just hate teachers -- possibly because of Mean Old Mrs. Crabtree back in elementary school -- is right.  We can point out numbers and facts, yet some people will never believe them.

It's not really worth arguing with people about any of this anymore, because they come up with whatever half-baked statistics they want to justify whatever reformy nonsense and anti-teacher rhetoric they want to believe and no amount of contrary fact-based information combined with real-life experience will ever dissuade them from their ideology.  Teachers have zero power, but they do represent a large portion of the remaining 11.3% of the American workforce that is Unionized, so we are going to be destroyed by the corporations that own the US government, so the USA can be more like the Third World countries that the corporations admire. I have just gotten to the point where I have accepted that public education as we know it is going to be completely destroyed along with a large chunk of the middle-class jobs that depend on it.  I am getting out while the getting is good and I am going to sit back and laugh at all the "reformers" while I watch American education go up in flames.  It's basically all going back to the way it was over a century ago and American educational competitiveness will be at an end.

+1000.  Beware of any group that seeks to demonize people engaged in education.

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #113 on: August 07, 2014, 10:44:53 PM »
Quote
You must live in Beverly Hills or something because I've been teaching for a decade and I make nowhere near that much money from that job (combined with my SO's pay and my side hustles, we make significantly more, of course).  I have heard of Baby Boomers in some places who have been teaching for 25 years making that kind of money, but nobody of the current generation will ever be that comfortable. 

I don't live in Beverly Hills, but in a suburb of Boston (and not one of the super wealthy ones like Lexington or Newton) and the average teacher salary is 87K.  Yeah, my jaw dropped too when I looked it up.  Salaries seem to range from 55K up to 90K.   MA has really strong teachers unions and very good schools, not just nationwide but worldwide, so I don't begrudge them their pay at all.  They are also required to hold masters degrees.  Besides, I know they have their work cut out for them teaching my kids.  :P 



http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx

I think your right; good teachers get paid a pretty average salary compared to the national range, minus the large amount of schooling required of course.

In May 2012, the median annual wage for kindergarten teachers was $50,120. The median annual wage for elementary school teachers was $53,400 in May 2012.  bls.gov

The BLS reports the median annual salary for high school teachers was $55,050 in 2012. bls.gov

For my anecdotal evidence; my sister-in-law is a teacher and she falls into the range above.

Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).

Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.

On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.

Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher.  I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers.  I also get a ton of time off.  I really don't have much to complain about."

That kind of honesty would be refreshing.

Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service.  Go ahead, Mr. Smartypants.  And then try to live on that $50,000 in New York City or San Francisco.  Then tell me again how teachers are so overpaid.  Sometimes I want to walk into an engineer's or doctor's office and just start screaming at them about how they are overpaid losers and how they should all be fired just so I can show them how it feels to be a teacher every single day.

OMG thank you!    Nobody bats an eye about 25 year old code monkeys making 6 figures while cruising the internets all day, yet they get all pissy about women who work their asses off teaching their children wanting decent respect and compensation.  Makes me so maaaaad!!   I think its a sexist thing.

vivophoenix

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #114 on: August 08, 2014, 11:31:04 AM »
Quote
You must live in Beverly Hills or something because I've been teaching for a decade and I make nowhere near that much money from that job (combined with my SO's pay and my side hustles, we make significantly more, of course).  I have heard of Baby Boomers in some places who have been teaching for 25 years making that kind of money, but nobody of the current generation will ever be that comfortable. 

I don't live in Beverly Hills, but in a suburb of Boston (and not one of the super wealthy ones like Lexington or Newton) and the average teacher salary is 87K.  Yeah, my jaw dropped too when I looked it up.  Salaries seem to range from 55K up to 90K.   MA has really strong teachers unions and very good schools, not just nationwide but worldwide, so I don't begrudge them their pay at all.  They are also required to hold masters degrees.  Besides, I know they have their work cut out for them teaching my kids.  :P 



http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx

I think your right; good teachers get paid a pretty average salary compared to the national range, minus the large amount of schooling required of course.

In May 2012, the median annual wage for kindergarten teachers was $50,120. The median annual wage for elementary school teachers was $53,400 in May 2012.  bls.gov

The BLS reports the median annual salary for high school teachers was $55,050 in 2012. bls.gov

For my anecdotal evidence; my sister-in-law is a teacher and she falls into the range above.

Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).

Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.

On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.

Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher.  I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers.  I also get a ton of time off.  I really don't have much to complain about."

That kind of honesty would be refreshing.

Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service.  Go ahead, Mr. Smartypants.  And then try to live on that $50,000 in New York City or San Francisco.  Then tell me again how teachers are so overpaid.  Sometimes I want to walk into an engineer's or doctor's office and just start screaming at them about how they are overpaid losers and how they should all be fired just so I can show them how it feels to be a teacher every single day.

OMG thank you!    Nobody bats an eye about 25 year old code monkeys making 6 figures while cruising the internets all day, yet they get all pissy about women who work their asses off teaching their children wanting decent respect and compensation.  Makes me so maaaaad!!   I think its a sexist thing.


no. MrsPotts you're a sexist thing.

you assume only men are coders, and only women are teachers.

i doubt that code monkey makes six figures.
 i esp doubt they are able to cruise the internet all day.
 and finally what does pointing to a totally different career field have to do with the pay of teachers.
sounds like if the code monkeys have it so easy, you should go join them.


all you're doing is building the argument for teachers, being whiny, and at this point id say neurotic as well.

i think the code monkeys are also better at parsing data and statistics, and building a real correlation between data.

who cares if you got you masters, that means in that field you mastered the material. that doesn't mean you should be paid the same as someone who mastered completely different material. 

solon

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #115 on: August 08, 2014, 11:40:02 AM »
OMG thank you!    Nobody bats an eye about 25 year old code monkeys making 6 figures while cruising the internets all day, yet they get all pissy about women who work their asses off teaching their children wanting decent respect and compensation.  Makes me so maaaaad!!   I think its a sexist thing.


no. MrsPotts you're a sexist thing.

you assume only men are coders, and only women are teachers.

i doubt that code monkey makes six figures.
 i esp doubt they are able to cruise the internet all day.
 and finally what does pointing to a totally different career field have to do with the pay of teachers.
sounds like if the code monkeys have it so easy, you should go join them.


all you're doing is building the argument for teachers, being whiny, and at this point id say neurotic as well.

i think the code monkeys are also better at parsing data and statistics, and building a real correlation between data.

who cares if you got you masters, that means in that field you mastered the material. that doesn't mean you should be paid the same as someone who mastered completely different material.

I think MrsPotts just made a good case for homeschooling. I definitely don't want somebody with an attitude like this teaching my kids!

libertarian4321

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #116 on: August 08, 2014, 06:21:02 PM »
It's not really worth arguing with people about any of this anymore, because they come up with whatever half-baked statistics they want to justify whatever reformy nonsense and anti-teacher rhetoric they want to believe and no amount of contrary fact-based information combined with real-life experience will ever dissuade them from their ideology.  Teachers have zero power, but they do represent a large portion of the remaining 11.3% of the American workforce that is Unionized, so we are going to be destroyed by the corporations that own the US government, so the USA can be more like the Third World countries that the corporations admire.  I have just gotten to the point where I have accepted that public education as we know it is going to be completely destroyed along with a large chunk of the middle-class jobs that depend on it.  I am getting out while the getting is good and I am going to sit back and laugh at all the "reformers" while I watch American education go up in flames.  It's basically all going back to the way it was over a century ago and American educational competitiveness will be at an end.

If you think my statistics and arguments are "half baked" PLEASE TAKE YOUR BEST SHOT AT REFUTING THEM.  So far, all you have done is whine and make ad hominem attacks (I thank the other posters, however, who did make legitimate points).

I'd expect more from a teacher, and especially one who claims high intelligence.

Based on what I've seen, it's probably best for your students if you get out of teaching.  A teacher who can't engage constructively in a logical debate probably isn't much help to the kids, unless you teach finger painting, music appreciation, modern dance, phys ed, or something similar.

My best HS teachers could not only logically debate, they encouraged their students to do the same.

Our schools are doing sooooo well, we wouldn't want to discuss any of that "reformy nonsense," would we?

MrsPotts

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #117 on: August 08, 2014, 07:24:12 PM »
OMG thank you!    Nobody bats an eye about 25 year old code monkeys making 6 figures while cruising the internets all day, yet they get all pissy about women who work their asses off teaching their children wanting decent respect and compensation.  Makes me so maaaaad!!   I think its a sexist thing.


no. MrsPotts you're  a sexist thing. 

you assume only men are coders, and only women are teachers.

i doubt that code monkey makes six figures.
 i esp doubt they are able to cruise the internet all day.
 and finally what does pointing to a totally different career field have to do with the pay of teachers.
sounds like if the code monkeys have it so easy, you should go join them.


all you're doing is building the argument for teachers, being whiny, and at this point id say neurotic as well.

i think the code monkeys are also better at parsing data and statistics, and building a real correlation between data.

who cares if you got you masters, that means in that field you mastered the material. that doesn't mean you should be paid the same as someone who mastered completely different material.

I think MrsPotts just made a good case for homeschooling. I definitely don't want somebody with an attitude like this teaching my kids!

actually, I am not a teacher, nor am I whiny.  i am merely advocating for a very hardworking, disrespected profession which is PRIMARILY made up of women.

And while I am not a code monkey, either, I did spawn one, so I have some experience on the topic.

I do think, however, that you have very bad manners and should go to see the principal. 

Sayyadina

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #118 on: August 08, 2014, 11:00:39 PM »
actually, I am not a teacher, nor am I whiny.  i am merely advocating for a very hardworking, disrespected profession which is PRIMARILY made up of women.

And while I am not a code monkey, either, I did spawn one, so I have some experience on the topic.

I do think, however, that you have very bad manners and should go to see the principal. 

I'm not a code monkey either. I'm a software developer, and I happen to be a woman. It drives me nuts when people assume that women don't code, because it makes me invisible in a profession I love.

I agree that teachers shouldn't be disrespected. But please, please don't do the same thing to me... or to the amazing and talented men that I work with (having a child who codes is no excuse).

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #119 on: August 08, 2014, 11:42:42 PM »
I wasn't disrespecting anyone.  I was sticking up for teachers.  If very talented hardworking software developers resent teachers being amply compensated for very difficult work, then I fell sorry for them.

I think that part of the problem is that everyone thinks they know what teachers do, because most of us went to school.  Actually, most of us know what students do.  A significant  part of the job is off camera, and a significant portion of the grunt work is done by women, who are, despite all of the very talented female software developers out there, generally undervalued in our society.

My own brat, female in fact, was offered 75k as her first job, right out of college, configuring prepackaged software for clients. She is bright, hardworking, and talented, but is she worth 25% more than her top of career high school calculus teacher?   Right out of college?  To learn on the job?  To tinker with code????   Personally, while I was happy for her, I find that pay differential to be, frankly, fucking obscene, and I personally don't give a shit how many code monkeys highly talented and dedicated software developers get miffed because I do. 

Zikoris

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #120 on: August 08, 2014, 11:47:58 PM »
I wasn't disrespecting anyone.  I was sticking up for teachers.  If very talented hardworking software developers resent teachers being amply compensated for very difficult work, then I fell sorry for them.

I think that part of the problem is that everyone thinks they know what teachers do, because most of us went to school.  Actually, most of us know what students do.  A significant  part of the job is off camera, and a significant portion of the grunt work is done by women, who are, despite all of the very talented female software developers out there, generally undervalued in our society.

My own brat, female in fact, was offered 75k as her first job, right out of college, configuring prepackaged software for clients. She is bright, hardworking, and talented, but is she worth 25% more than her top of career high school calculus teacher?   Right out of college?  To learn on the job?  To tinker with code????   Personally, while I was happy for her, I find that pay differential to be, frankly, fucking obscene, and I personally don't give a shit how many code monkeys highly talented and dedicated software developers get miffed because I do.

Supply and demand. Like it or not, there are a whole lot more people who are qualified and want to teach kids than be software engineers. Scarcity drives the price up.

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #121 on: August 09, 2014, 12:06:01 AM »
I wasn't disrespecting anyone.  I was sticking up for teachers.  If very talented hardworking software developers resent teachers being amply compensated for very difficult work, then I fell sorry for them.

I think that part of the problem is that everyone thinks they know what teachers do, because most of us went to school.  Actually, most of us know what students do.  A significant  part of the job is off camera, and a significant portion of the grunt work is done by women, who are, despite all of the very talented female software developers out there, generally undervalued in our society.

My own brat, female in fact, was offered 75k as her first job, right out of college, configuring prepackaged software for clients. She is bright, hardworking, and talented, but is she worth 25% more than her top of career high school calculus teacher?   Right out of college?  To learn on the job?  To tinker with code????   Personally, while I was happy for her, I find that pay differential to be, frankly, fucking obscene, and I personally don't give a shit how many code monkeys highly talented and dedicated software developers get miffed because I do.

Supply and demand. Like it or not, there are a whole lot more people who are qualified and want to teach kids than be software engineers. Scarcity drives the price up.

If you read earlier posts, there were people mocking teachers and claiming they are overpaid.  If a few teachers can command a decent salary then by the rules of supply and demand why are people so resentful?   I don't see dozens of posts bitching about how doctors or lawyers or god forbid engineers and software developers are overpaid.  What the FUCK do you people have against teachers?

Zikoris

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #122 on: August 09, 2014, 12:21:09 AM »
I wasn't disrespecting anyone.  I was sticking up for teachers.  If very talented hardworking software developers resent teachers being amply compensated for very difficult work, then I fell sorry for them.

I think that part of the problem is that everyone thinks they know what teachers do, because most of us went to school.  Actually, most of us know what students do.  A significant  part of the job is off camera, and a significant portion of the grunt work is done by women, who are, despite all of the very talented female software developers out there, generally undervalued in our society.

My own brat, female in fact, was offered 75k as her first job, right out of college, configuring prepackaged software for clients. She is bright, hardworking, and talented, but is she worth 25% more than her top of career high school calculus teacher?   Right out of college?  To learn on the job?  To tinker with code????   Personally, while I was happy for her, I find that pay differential to be, frankly, fucking obscene, and I personally don't give a shit how many code monkeys highly talented and dedicated software developers get miffed because I do.

Supply and demand. Like it or not, there are a whole lot more people who are qualified and want to teach kids than be software engineers. Scarcity drives the price up.

If you read earlier posts, there were people mocking teachers and claiming they are overpaid.  If a few teachers can command a decent salary then by the rules of supply and demand why are people so resentful?   I don't see dozens of posts bitching about how doctors or lawyers or god forbid engineers and software developers are overpaid.  What the FUCK do you people have against teachers?

I think a big part of the issue is that the teachers in the thread seem unable to make an argument that isn't based on emotion and bad logic, then disappear when anyone actually brings out numbers and asks questions. We're a pretty rational bunch here, and lose respect for people like that pretty quickly. And question whether they have the ability to teach children critical thinking skills.

Albert

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #123 on: August 09, 2014, 01:20:37 AM »
I read this thread with some interest. I see American teachers are not having it all that good. Manageable, but not a charmed life financially by any means.

Here in Switzerland it's still one of the most lucrative professions. The average primary school teacher makes ca 80,000$, secondary school  90-100,000$. I believe the latter has to have a masters degree. There are better schools and less good ones (lots of immigrants with poor German), but I've never heard of any violent ones. In any case kids are separated at young age into "fast" and "slow". 

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #124 on: August 09, 2014, 02:01:03 AM »
Been following this thread for sometime... And I'm confused. Isn't it basic economics at play here? Decades back teaching was a lucrative position in US because of all the positives like flexible schedule, pension, holidays, security and decent pay. That attracted more and more people to the field and now it is overrun. As a result, the demand and the salaries have gone down along with benefits. I'm not saying good teachers are not affected by it or that teachers should not be paid more. Since there are teachers who are ready to teach for less, the market gives less.. If every teacher says they'll teach only for more salary, the market would pay more.

vivophoenix

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #125 on: August 09, 2014, 12:00:51 PM »
Been following this thread for sometime... And I'm confused. Isn't it basic economics at play here? Decades back teaching was a lucrative position in US because of all the positives like flexible schedule, pension, holidays, security and decent pay. That attracted more and more people to the field and now it is overrun. As a result, the demand and the salaries have gone down along with benefits. I'm not saying good teachers are not affected by it or that teachers should not be paid more. Since there are teachers who are ready to teach for less, the market gives less.. If every teacher says they'll teach only for more salary, the market would pay more.

agreed, anyone making a case for otherwise is doing so based on emotions.

Albert

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #126 on: August 09, 2014, 12:03:05 PM »
It's a publicly funded position so true market forces do not apply. You underpay your teachers and then wonder why your education (primary and high school) is slowly spiralling downwards compared to other places.

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #127 on: August 09, 2014, 01:23:09 PM »
Hey, Mrs. Potts, you make some great points! Thanks for sticking up for teachers. The current climate and compensation structure in American public schools is turning many talented young professionals away from the vocation.

I don't have "summers" off, nor do I get "paid" for summer break. The Board of Education gives me a contract for X dollars (paid Sept - June) and X number of days...much like an attorney's or accountant's fee schedule for a service. So if a teacher makes $50,000/year for 190 days, that equates to about $263.00 a day. It's assumed a teacher works an 8 hour work day...

However, most teachers HAVE to work 60+ hours per week. Curriculum development, lesson planning, creating and scoring assessments, updating student performance data, mandatory professional collaboration, communicating with parents from 7am until 10pm b/c it's impossible during your work day, building and district level meetings, and ongoing training and professional development all need to be done BEYOND the 7 hour student contact time. It's a thankless, demanding and exhausting job. 

I'd like to see someone who sits at a desk all day dealing with one problem/task or person at a time try it for one week, nay one DAY, nay, one HOUR. Then we'll engage in further discourse.

I've been asked to work 9 extra days this summer for NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. This may not seem like a big deal, but I doubt your lawyer or doctor or accountant would do the same...

Oh and every time a parent threatens home-schooling, I really start rolling on the ground laughing. FINE BY ME! Have as many kids as you'd like and teach them yourself.

That's like screaming at your garbage man, "I'm taking my trash to the dump myself from now on!"

You're still paying for it -  he's still driving by your house every Thursday -  but hey, you showed him. Bravo!

Zikoris

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #128 on: August 09, 2014, 02:46:50 PM »
Quote
Hey, Mrs. Potts, you make some great points! Thanks for sticking up for teachers. The current climate and compensation structure in American public schools is turning many talented young professionals away from the vocation.

She didn't actually make any points - she made a few vaguely sexist remarks, insulted some other posters, had a few emotional outbrsts, and demonstrated a lack of understanding basic economics. For some reason, everyone in here that's strongly supporting teachers is doing some version of that. It really causes you guys to lose credibility.

Quote
I don't have "summers" off, nor do I get "paid" for summer break. The Board of Education gives me a contract for X dollars (paid Sept - June) and X number of days...much like an attorney's or accountant's fee schedule for a service. So if a teacher makes $50,000/year for 190 days, that equates to about $263.00 a day. It's assumed a teacher works an 8 hour work day...

Look, funky accounting of hours just doesn't cut it when you're discussing this stuff with people who operate more on logic than emotion. I make a salary of about $37,000 and work year round. If my neighbour is a teacher and makes a salary of $37,000 but works 10 months a year instead of 12, that means they get two months off work. You're salaried, not hourly. Logically, for salaried positions it's irrelevant what the pay schedule is, besides that a weird one can create budgeting problems for people who have trouble thinking ahead.

vivophoenix

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #129 on: August 09, 2014, 03:35:34 PM »
I wasn't disrespecting anyone.  I was sticking up for teachers.  If very talented hardworking software developers resent teachers being amply compensated for very difficult work, then I fell sorry for them.

I think that part of the problem is that everyone thinks they know what teachers do, because most of us went to school.  Actually, most of us know what students do.  A significant  part of the job is off camera, and a significant portion of the grunt work is done by women, who are, despite all of the very talented female software developers out there, generally undervalued in our society.

My own brat, female in fact, was offered 75k as her first job, right out of college, configuring prepackaged software for clients. She is bright, hardworking, and talented, but is she worth 25% more than her top of career high school calculus teacher?   Right out of college?  To learn on the job?  To tinker with code????   Personally, while I was happy for her, I find that pay differential to be, frankly, fucking obscene, and I personally don't give a shit how many code monkeys highly talented and dedicated software developers get miffed because I do.

Dear  Potts:

your spawn is worth more than a teacher , because the market dictates thus
your opinion of someones worth and profession are irrelevant.

 if the market paid people according to how 'hard' they worked, guess what? 
the teachers, you are attempting to champion , still wouldn't come out on top.
 it would probably be:  coal miners, lumberjacks, cabbies  and some small little old lady who, with her shaky hands, hand tailors yuppie dry cleaning.

vivophoenix

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #130 on: August 09, 2014, 03:39:14 PM »
also potts you should probably google causation vs correlation, before you spout off about sexism again.

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #131 on: August 09, 2014, 06:34:23 PM »
Quote
Hey, Mrs. Potts, you make some great points! Thanks for sticking up for teachers. The current climate and compensation structure in American public schools is turning many talented young professionals away from the vocation.

She didn't actually make any points - she made a few vaguely sexist remarks, insulted some other posters, had a few emotional outbrsts, and demonstrated a lack of understanding basic economics. For some reason, everyone in here that's strongly supporting teachers is doing some version of that. It really causes you guys to lose credibility.

Quote
I don't have "summers" off, nor do I get "paid" for summer break. The Board of Education gives me a contract for X dollars (paid Sept - June) and X number of days...much like an attorney's or accountant's fee schedule for a service. So if a teacher makes $50,000/year for 190 days, that equates to about $263.00 a day. It's assumed a teacher works an 8 hour work day...

Look, funky accounting of hours just doesn't cut it when you're discussing this stuff with people who operate more on logic than emotion. I make a salary of about $37,000 and work year round. If my neighbour is a teacher and makes a salary of $37,000 but works 10 months a year instead of 12, that means they get two months off work. You're salaried, not hourly. Logically, for salaried positions it's irrelevant what the pay schedule is, besides that a weird one can create budgeting problems for people who have trouble thinking ahead.

Did anyone make a case that the payment schedule affects whether teachers are paid for 10 months or 12? I think you're arguing against a straw man here.

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #132 on: August 09, 2014, 07:24:14 PM »
Quote
Did anyone make a case that the payment schedule affects whether teachers are paid for 10 months or 12? I think you're arguing against a straw man here.

What I'm saying is that $50,000/year annual salary is a $50,000/year annual salary, regardless of how many months it's paid out over. Telling people "Oh, we don't get paid over the summer" is just another ridiculous tactic teachers are using to try to drum up sympathy. I have nothing against teachers, and both of my parents are in fact retired teachers, but as a group they're simply not going to get widespread support for their "struggles" until they can come up with arguments that make some sort of logical sense.

beltim

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #133 on: August 09, 2014, 07:26:27 PM »
Quote
Did anyone make a case that the payment schedule affects whether teachers are paid for 10 months or 12? I think you're arguing against a straw man here.

What I'm saying is that $50,000/year annual salary is a $50,000/year annual salary, regardless of how many months it's paid out over. Telling people "Oh, we don't get paid over the summer" is just another ridiculous tactic teachers are using to try to drum up sympathy. I have nothing against teachers, and both of my parents are in fact retired teachers, but as a group they're simply not going to get widespread support for their "struggles" until they can come up with arguments that make some sort of logical sense.

And I'm asking if anyone here actually made that argument. I didn't see it, but it's possible I missed it.

Zikoris

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #134 on: August 09, 2014, 07:44:51 PM »
Quote
Did anyone make a case that the payment schedule affects whether teachers are paid for 10 months or 12? I think you're arguing against a straw man here.

What I'm saying is that $50,000/year annual salary is a $50,000/year annual salary, regardless of how many months it's paid out over. Telling people "Oh, we don't get paid over the summer" is just another ridiculous tactic teachers are using to try to drum up sympathy. I have nothing against teachers, and both of my parents are in fact retired teachers, but as a group they're simply not going to get widespread support for their "struggles" until they can come up with arguments that make some sort of logical sense.

And I'm asking if anyone here actually made that argument. I didn't see it, but it's possible I missed it.

From MrsPete:

Quote
You do realize that summer vacation isn't a paid vacation, right?  And if you count the number of actual holidays during the school year, it's pretty close to other professional's holidays.  Many of the days kids are out of school are actually teacher work days.

From nirvines8:

Quote
So yes, I do get 2 months of UNpaid vacation (which I am very grateful for)

From fartface:

Quote
I don't have "summers" off, nor do I get "paid" for summer break.

beltim

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #135 on: August 09, 2014, 08:12:03 PM »
Quote
Did anyone make a case that the payment schedule affects whether teachers are paid for 10 months or 12? I think you're arguing against a straw man here.

What I'm saying is that $50,000/year annual salary is a $50,000/year annual salary, regardless of how many months it's paid out over. Telling people "Oh, we don't get paid over the summer" is just another ridiculous tactic teachers are using to try to drum up sympathy. I have nothing against teachers, and both of my parents are in fact retired teachers, but as a group they're simply not going to get widespread support for their "struggles" until they can come up with arguments that make some sort of logical sense.

And I'm asking if anyone here actually made that argument. I didn't see it, but it's possible I missed it.

From MrsPete:

Quote
You do realize that summer vacation isn't a paid vacation, right?  And if you count the number of actual holidays during the school year, it's pretty close to other professional's holidays.  Many of the days kids are out of school are actually teacher work days.

From nirvines8:

Quote
So yes, I do get 2 months of UNpaid vacation (which I am very grateful for)

From fartface:

Quote
I don't have "summers" off, nor do I get "paid" for summer break.

Right. Those all say they're paid for 10 months of work. None argue that the payment schedule means they work 12 months.

Zikoris

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #136 on: August 09, 2014, 08:18:18 PM »
Quote
Did anyone make a case that the payment schedule affects whether teachers are paid for 10 months or 12? I think you're arguing against a straw man here.

What I'm saying is that $50,000/year annual salary is a $50,000/year annual salary, regardless of how many months it's paid out over. Telling people "Oh, we don't get paid over the summer" is just another ridiculous tactic teachers are using to try to drum up sympathy. I have nothing against teachers, and both of my parents are in fact retired teachers, but as a group they're simply not going to get widespread support for their "struggles" until they can come up with arguments that make some sort of logical sense.

And I'm asking if anyone here actually made that argument. I didn't see it, but it's possible I missed it.

From MrsPete:

Quote
You do realize that summer vacation isn't a paid vacation, right?  And if you count the number of actual holidays during the school year, it's pretty close to other professional's holidays.  Many of the days kids are out of school are actually teacher work days.

From nirvines8:

Quote
So yes, I do get 2 months of UNpaid vacation (which I am very grateful for)

From fartface:

Quote
I don't have "summers" off, nor do I get "paid" for summer break.

Right. Those all say they're paid for 10 months of work. None argue that the payment schedule means they work 12 months.

Yes, paid an annual salary for 10 months of work. It's a salaried position. When you have an annual salary, you can't argue that you're unpaid for a portion of it - you have an annual salary. Whether you get paid over 10 or 12 months is irrelevant.

beltim

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #137 on: August 09, 2014, 08:24:57 PM »
Quote
Did anyone make a case that the payment schedule affects whether teachers are paid for 10 months or 12? I think you're arguing against a straw man here.

What I'm saying is that $50,000/year annual salary is a $50,000/year annual salary, regardless of how many months it's paid out over. Telling people "Oh, we don't get paid over the summer" is just another ridiculous tactic teachers are using to try to drum up sympathy. I have nothing against teachers, and both of my parents are in fact retired teachers, but as a group they're simply not going to get widespread support for their "struggles" until they can come up with arguments that make some sort of logical sense.

And I'm asking if anyone here actually made that argument. I didn't see it, but it's possible I missed it.

From MrsPete:

Quote
You do realize that summer vacation isn't a paid vacation, right?  And if you count the number of actual holidays during the school year, it's pretty close to other professional's holidays.  Many of the days kids are out of school are actually teacher work days.

From nirvines8:

Quote
So yes, I do get 2 months of UNpaid vacation (which I am very grateful for)

From fartface:

Quote
I don't have "summers" off, nor do I get "paid" for summer break.

Right. Those all say they're paid for 10 months of work. None argue that the payment schedule means they work 12 months.

Yes, paid an annual salary for 10 months of work. It's a salaried position. When you have an annual salary, you can't argue that you're unpaid for a portion of it - you have an annual salary. Whether you get paid over 10 or 12 months is irrelevant.

Salaried for 10 months. Contracts run for (for example) September through June. What's the difference? Well, a few, but mostly it's because you're trying to say that teachers are making an argument that they're not.

beltim

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #138 on: August 09, 2014, 08:32:09 PM »
Maybe the problem is your the use of salary. Salary doesn't necessarily mean annual - you can have a monthly or weekly salary too.


BlueHouse

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #139 on: August 11, 2014, 08:07:46 PM »
Quote

Yes, paid an annual salary for 10 months of work. It's a salaried position. When you have an annual salary, you can't argue that you're unpaid for a portion of it - you have an annual salary. Whether you get paid over 10 or 12 months is irrelevant.

Salaried for 10 months. Contracts run for (for example) September through June. What's the difference? Well, a few, but mostly it's because you're trying to say that teachers are making an argument that they're not.

Questions:
can teachers collect unemployment during the months when school is not in session? 
Can employers require teachers to attend classes or prepare during the summer months?
Do teachers have insurance coverage during summer months? 
Someone mentioned 10 month contracts. Does that mean you're self-employed? 

I'm not arguing one way or the other.  I just want to know the answers.

beltim

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #140 on: August 11, 2014, 08:20:38 PM »
Quote

Yes, paid an annual salary for 10 months of work. It's a salaried position. When you have an annual salary, you can't argue that you're unpaid for a portion of it - you have an annual salary. Whether you get paid over 10 or 12 months is irrelevant.

Salaried for 10 months. Contracts run for (for example) September through June. What's the difference? Well, a few, but mostly it's because you're trying to say that teachers are making an argument that they're not.

Questions:
can teachers collect unemployment during the months when school is not in session? 
Can employers require teachers to attend classes or prepare during the summer months?
Do teachers have insurance coverage during summer months? 
Someone mentioned 10 month contracts. Does that mean you're self-employed? 

I'm not arguing one way or the other.  I just want to know the answers.

1) no
2) whatever's in the contract
3) yes
4) no

Rural

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #141 on: August 12, 2014, 03:29:00 AM »
Quote

Yes, paid an annual salary for 10 months of work. It's a salaried position. When you have an annual salary, you can't argue that you're unpaid for a portion of it - you have an annual salary. Whether you get paid over 10 or 12 months is irrelevant.

Salaried for 10 months. Contracts run for (for example) September through June. What's the difference? Well, a few, but mostly it's because you're trying to say that teachers are making an argument that they're not.

Questions:
can teachers collect unemployment during the months when school is not in session? 
Can employers require teachers to attend classes or prepare during the summer months?
Do teachers have insurance coverage during summer months? 
Someone mentioned 10 month contracts. Does that mean you're self-employed? 

I'm not arguing one way or the other.  I just want to know the answers.

1) no
2) whatever's in the contract
3) yes
4) no


Varies by state. Here the answers where I am:


1) yes (that's why the state mandated paying secondary ed teachers over 12 months, to disqualify all the teachers who were getting unemployment two months of the year - that puts their income too high to qualify). It's "not done" in the university system, but those who do file get it.
2) no, though it's a good idea to do it if they ask and you would like another contract. In the university system, this doesn't happen (they don't ask)
3) yes, because of the twelve month thing above. In the university system where I work, it's yes because they take out 7/5 of a normal premium from Jan- May when the contract ends.
4) Not self-employed (though I am that, too, separately). Employed on a contract by someone else.


As an example, I also work summers because I'm in a split role. That's a separate contract we've negotiated for June and July, and actually a different rate of pay.

MrsPete

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #142 on: August 12, 2014, 08:32:44 AM »
Yes, paid an annual salary for 10 months of work. It's a salaried position. When you have an annual salary, you can't argue that you're unpaid for a portion of it - you have an annual salary. Whether you get paid over 10 or 12 months is irrelevant.
The point is that MANY PEOPLE -- including one of our state representatives who votes on our salaries -- have the idea that teachers receive 12 monthly checks . . . but only work 10 months for that pay.  MANY PEOPLE think it's a paid vacation.  If you're thinking along the lines of, "Would you like your pizza cut into 10 slices or 12", you're going beyond what most people think -- the real issue is about the pervasive public perception that the taxpayers are paying teachers to do nothing, which is untrue.

My contract says I am to work for 10 months, and I am to be paid for 10 months.  I do not have the option to divide that into 12 checks, though I believe that choice is available to teachers in other areas.   
Questions:
can teachers collect unemployment during the months when school is not in session? 
Can employers require teachers to attend classes or prepare during the summer months?
Do teachers have insurance coverage during summer months? 
Someone mentioned 10 month contracts. Does that mean you're self-employed? 

I'm not arguing one way or the other.  I just want to know the answers.
No, because we complete our contracts in June, we are not "unemployed" during the summer.  Rather, we've completed the work that was promised to us. 

Likewise, a new teacher who's working on a one-year contract and who is not rehired the next year cannot collect unemployment -- he or she completed the work that was promised and was not laid off; however, a teacher who's on "Career Status" (commonly, though wrongly, called tenure) could collect unemployment (in the fall, not the summer) because that person's continuing contract states that employment was expected again the next fall.  This is one of the reasons teachers in my state are fighting so hard to keep Career Status.  Without it, we have no security for future employment. 

Whether teachers can be required to attend meetings, etc. during the summer is a fine line.  In reality, teachers could say no -- but then they'd have to do the same work during the next school year, so it's not in anyone's best interest.  Any teacher who doesn't come back to school without having prepared over the summer is likely to have a bad year.  I personally use the end-of-school workdays to prepare for the first week of school (which is always a killer).  When I walk back into my classroom next week, I know I have brand-new bulletin boards and little piles of Xeroxed papers waiting for me -- I've done this enough times that I don't want to be the one scurrying around doing things at the last minute.  Back to the subject . . . Some of those summer meetings are Continuing Ed type things -- you have to do them to renew your license, but you don't have to do everything THIS SUMMER.  Typically teachers are given "comp time" for work done during the summer, but because that comp time can't be used while students are present, it's not particularly valuable. 

In contrast, during the school year teachers do not have the option to refuse meetings, etc., even if they are after school hours.  Except in emergency situations, we do get reasonable notice.  Mandatory after-hours items include sponsoring clubs, chaperoning dances, selling football tickets, and supervising after-school detention.  As mentioned above, we get "comp time" for these events, but we end up building up so much of it that we can't use it.

Yes, we have insurance during the summer months.  The cost is deducted from our last paycheck of the year, which I've always thought was bad planning.  It's already the last paycheck for a while . . . and triple deductions hurt.  On the other hand, we do not contribute to our 401Ks or the state pension plan during the summer; rather, those deductions are divided equally between our 10 paychecks.  And  teachers who borrow through the State Employees' Credit Union to buy cars or houses have the option to schedule their payments so that they make 10 payments a year and skip the two summer months when no paycheck arrives. 

No, I am employed by the county school board.  When I was new, they granted me a string of one year contracts, now I have a continuing contract.  I work for them.  In this sense, teaching is unlike other jobs -- it's a bit like seasonal work.  It does not compare apples-to-apples with other jobs. 


vivophoenix

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #143 on: August 12, 2014, 10:08:47 AM »
so lets say:
i have a one year teaching contract. and im not hired the next year. after the summer is complete and i would normally get a a new contract, can i then collect unemployment? i dont mean in june, I mean in September.

beltim

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #144 on: August 12, 2014, 10:21:48 AM »
so lets say:
i have a one year teaching contract. and im not hired the next year. after the summer is complete and i would normally get a a new contract, can i then collect unemployment? i dont mean in june, I mean in September.

From my reading, this varies by state.  In some places you could file in June, in others you wouldn't be eligible for unemployment at all.

vivophoenix

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #145 on: August 12, 2014, 10:30:28 AM »
im not saying i looked at every state. but from what im reading. you can either file in june(only if you have not been renewed, and you are not paid 12 checks)  or have to wait for fall( if no contract and no checks). im not seeing anywhere that you dont get ANY AT ALL unemployment if you are a teacher who is not working. so that only supports that idea that summers are paid for work since everything i have read hinges on weather you get 12 checks or 10.

10 checks means, there are 2 months in which you could take on other employment.
12 checks means youre paid and can still take on other employment.

its called being a seasonal worker. similar to people who work for carnivals and H and R block.


MrsPete

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #146 on: August 12, 2014, 08:08:28 PM »
so lets say:
i have a one year teaching contract. and im not hired the next year. after the summer is complete and i would normally get a a new contract, can i then collect unemployment? i dont mean in june, I mean in September.
No. If you have a one year contract and you do not receive a new contract for the next year, you are not eligible for unemployment.  Ever.  Why?  Because you were not laid off and did not lose your job; rather, you completed the work for which you were contracted, and the state owes you nothing else.  You're on the same level as the guy whom you hired to put a new roof on your house.  If he doesn't have another project, another job, another contract the week after your house, you don't owe him anything.  You took him on essentially as a temporary employee. 

As I said earlier, a teacher working on year-to-year contracts has no security.  That's why we value Career Status (often called Tenure incorrectly) so highly.  Without it, a good teacher can find herself out of a job because the principal found someone who can teach her subject AND coach basketball, or because he gave a failing grade to a school board member's nephew.  A teacher who is on Career Status contracts has a reasonable assurance of a job next year -- that person can be laid off if enrollment drops, and that person can be fired for cause, but that person cannot be replaced by a younger, cheaper teacher or the principal's best friend "just because". 

And, of course, like everything else, it's important to add the disclaimer "In my state".

Goldielocks

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #147 on: August 12, 2014, 11:41:53 PM »


Also, to stay on topic for this financial forum, someone with 6 years of post HS education is starting their working career that much later, with all the penalties that causes, including reduced CPP benefits unless they work longer.


In BC it is so difficult for new teachers to get hired, that most get the extra while still TOC.. Or many have a combo of summer options and night school. Not sure asy but not a day lay either
L.

libertarian4321

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #148 on: August 15, 2014, 04:28:16 PM »
I wasn't disrespecting anyone.  I was sticking up for teachers.  If very talented hardworking software developers resent teachers being amply compensated for very difficult work, then I fell sorry for them.

I think that part of the problem is that everyone thinks they know what teachers do, because most of us went to school.  Actually, most of us know what students do.  A significant  part of the job is off camera, and a significant portion of the grunt work is done by women, who are, despite all of the very talented female software developers out there, generally undervalued in our society.

My own brat, female in fact, was offered 75k as her first job, right out of college, configuring prepackaged software for clients. She is bright, hardworking, and talented, but is she worth 25% more than her top of career high school calculus teacher?   Right out of college?  To learn on the job?  To tinker with code????   Personally, while I was happy for her, I find that pay differential to be, frankly, fucking obscene, and I personally don't give a shit how many code monkeys highly talented and dedicated software developers get miffed because I do.

Supply and demand. Like it or not, there are a whole lot more people who are qualified and want to teach kids than be software engineers. Scarcity drives the price up.

If you read earlier posts, there were people mocking teachers and claiming they are overpaid.  If a few teachers can command a decent salary then by the rules of supply and demand why are people so resentful?   I don't see dozens of posts bitching about how doctors or lawyers or god forbid engineers and software developers are overpaid.  What the FUCK do you people have against teachers?

Yes, engineers, lawyers, and doctors make more than teachers.

This should surprise on one.  It's a HELL of a lot harder to become an engineer, lawyer, or doctor than a teacher.  While one can become an engineer with only a baccalaureate degree (same as a teacher), an engineering curriculum is far more challenging, and far less people can successfully complete the degree. 

In other words, there are far fewer people capable of being chemical engineers (or doctors or lawyers) than teachers (frankly, almost anyone who can get through college can become a teacher at some point, if he so chooses).  So it's no surprise that engineers, scientists, lawyers, and doctors make more than a 3rd grade teacher.

anisotropy

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Re: Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer
« Reply #149 on: August 18, 2014, 11:22:59 AM »
I wasn't disrespecting anyone.  I was sticking up for teachers.  If very talented hardworking software developers resent teachers being amply compensated for very difficult work, then I fell sorry for them.

I think that part of the problem is that everyone thinks they know what teachers do, because most of us went to school.  Actually, most of us know what students do.  A significant  part of the job is off camera, and a significant portion of the grunt work is done by women, who are, despite all of the very talented female software developers out there, generally undervalued in our society.

My own brat, female in fact, was offered 75k as her first job, right out of college, configuring prepackaged software for clients. She is bright, hardworking, and talented, but is she worth 25% more than her top of career high school calculus teacher?   Right out of college?  To learn on the job?  To tinker with code????   Personally, while I was happy for her, I find that pay differential to be, frankly, fucking obscene, and I personally don't give a shit how many code monkeys highly talented and dedicated software developers get miffed because I do.

Supply and demand. Like it or not, there are a whole lot more people who are qualified and want to teach kids than be software engineers. Scarcity drives the price up.

If you read earlier posts, there were people mocking teachers and claiming they are overpaid.  If a few teachers can command a decent salary then by the rules of supply and demand why are people so resentful?   I don't see dozens of posts bitching about how doctors or lawyers or god forbid engineers and software developers are overpaid.  What the FUCK do you people have against teachers?

Yes, engineers, lawyers, and doctors make more than teachers.

This should surprise on one.  It's a HELL of a lot harder to become an engineer, lawyer, or doctor than a teacher.  While one can become an engineer with only a baccalaureate degree (same as a teacher), an engineering curriculum is far more challenging, and far less people can successfully complete the degree. 

In other words, there are far fewer people capable of being chemical engineers (or doctors or lawyers) than teachers (frankly, almost anyone who can get through college can become a teacher at some point, if he so chooses).  So it's no surprise that engineers, scientists, lawyers, and doctors make more than a 3rd grade teacher.

actually teachers, firemen, cops are making more than engg , lawyers and scientists in canada, at least in calgary.

you can see the link i posted a few posts ago regarding teachers' wages (100k+ by ~35) .
http://www.cbe.ab.ca/careers/pdfs/Collective_Agreement_ATA.pdf

in 2013, over 30% of the cops in calgary made over 100k, the top 10% cops income was around 200k. sure there's alot of "overtime pay" but the same can be said about lawyers and docs yet they do not receive the so called overtime pay.

and when you really look into the details, police overtime pay is a pretty good deal for the cops.

I have a huge problem with public SERVANTS making too much money. What is too much? adjusted for years of service and exp, i believe anything more than 110% of general population (age/exp bracket) income is too much. in fact i think 80% of general population median income might be a more reasonable number.

wtf you say? thats where the pension and benefits come in for the "total" compensation. sure, 70% of highest 5 years , 10% match, blah blah whatever i am ok with it as long as your salary is reasonable. but dont try to get away with both high salary and decent pension.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!