Author Topic: So you are hiring a butler for a day?  (Read 13155 times)

regulator

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So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« on: November 08, 2015, 10:59:02 AM »
My sister is due very soon with kid #2.  She has decided to have the kid in a nearby hospital that has a birthing center or some such on site.  Last night she and BIL told me they are also hiring a doula.  I asked wtf a doula was and got basically an answer that added up to a personal assistant for the day.  How much does this cost?  $600 because they are going with an apprentice rather than the $2k or so a non-apprentice would cost.

WTF?  My sister and BIL are sweet people, but in their second half of their 30s and just barely starting to get the message that they need to save money and behave like real adults.

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2015, 11:45:06 AM »
Your sister and BIL may not have explained it very well, but a doula is not a butler.

http://americanpregnancy.org/labor-and-birth/having-a-doula/

A birth doula's involvement should begin well before childbirth, and she will remain with your sister through her entire labour (whether it takes six hours or sixty hours), so their $600 is paying for assistance beyond one single day.  Given the variety of ways women choose to birth (home birth, birthing centre, hospital birth, attended by midwife, attended by obstetrician, etc.) not everyone agrees on what has value, but I don't perceive your sister and BIL as not behaving like real adults because they are obtaining the assistance of a doula for this birth.  There may even be an economic argument for one, as studies show reduced interventions (like unplanned c-section) at doula-attended births.

regulator

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2015, 11:48:21 AM »
Your sister and BIL may not have explained it very well, but a doula is not a butler.

http://americanpregnancy.org/labor-and-birth/having-a-doula/

A birth doula's involvement should begin well before childbirth, and she will remain with your sister through her entire labour (whether it takes six hours or sixty hours), so their $600 is paying for assistance beyond one single day.  Given the variety of ways women choose to birth (home birth, birthing centre, hospital birth, attended by midwife, attended by obstetrician, etc.) not everyone agrees on what has value, but I don't perceive your sister and BIL as not behaving like real adults because they are obtaining the assistance of a doula for this birth.  There may even be an economic argument for one, as studies show reduced interventions (like unplanned c-section) at doula-attended births.

Sorry, but this is someone with no medical training who is basically there to give you massages and hold your hand.  BIL will be there the whole time and is a committed husband and father.  This is essentially pissing money out the window of the hospital room.

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2015, 01:13:11 PM »
The doula is in addition to the team of medical professionals, but has enough medical background to be a useful advocate if something goes wrong.

Female patients find it extremely difficult to get their concerns taken seriously, but when there's a non-patient in the room advocating for the patient, somehow the same statement is taken seriously from the non-patient.
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regulator

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2015, 02:38:58 PM »
The doula is in addition to the team of medical professionals, but has enough medical background to be a useful advocate if something goes wrong.

Female patients find it extremely difficult to get their concerns taken seriously, but when there's a non-patient in the room advocating for the patient, somehow the same statement is taken seriously from the non-patient.

And for some $600 reason my BIL is incapable of doing so?

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2015, 03:57:12 PM »
WTF?  My sister and BIL are sweet people, but in their second half of their 30s and just barely starting to get the message that they need to save money and behave like real adults.

How many kids have you had at a birthing center?

Was their first a standard hospital birth or a birthing center?

I'm assuming the husband has attended one birth, and may or may not have actually been that involved if it was a standard hospital birth.

Labor can go for... oh, 24 hours, maybe more.  Having someone else there to help with applying pressure or whatever is a very nice thing.  Your arms get pretty damned sore if your wife prefers strong clamping pressure on her hips during labor, and being able to switch between two people makes a big difference there.

They're also around for post-birth questions and a home visit or two.

Sorry, but this is someone with no medical training who is basically there to give you massages and hold your hand.  BIL will be there the whole time and is a committed husband and father.  This is essentially pissing money out the window of the hospital room.

They've also attended quite a few births, and have an awful lot of training in the process of natural child birth - which is a fairly uncommon thing, despite the fact that in our circle of friends, we know of two hospital births out of about 10 kids (the rest were birth center or home birth).

I really, really don't see the problem with spending on a doula (obviously - we had one), though $2k is really expensive - ours wasn't nearly that pricey, and she's been doing it for a decade or so.

*shrug* And birth center + doula was still a lot cheaper out of pocket than the typical hospital birth.  Even though insurance covered less.
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mm1970

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2015, 05:19:01 PM »
The doula is in addition to the team of medical professionals, but has enough medical background to be a useful advocate if something goes wrong.

Female patients find it extremely difficult to get their concerns taken seriously, but when there's a non-patient in the room advocating for the patient, somehow the same statement is taken seriously from the non-patient.

And for some $600 reason my BIL is incapable of doing so?
Generally, yes. Many husbands are just going to go with what the doctor or nurses say.

I know a couple of doulas, and women who have given birth with and without. They swear by it.   

JrDoctor

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2015, 05:34:35 PM »
This Doula sounds about as useful as a chocolate tea pot.  Fuck for $600 you could get a obstetric registrar with 7 years of training for  24 hours.  For $2k you could get a british consultant for over a day, heck you could probably ship them over on a plane and pay them for $2k. 

I also do not see how this supposed 'professional' is going to advocate for you more than the midwives will.  Ridiculous service more likely to harm than help.

regulator

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2015, 06:08:03 PM »
This Doula sounds about as useful as a chocolate tea pot.  Fuck for $600 you could get a obstetric registrar with 7 years of training for  24 hours.  For $2k you could get a british consultant for over a day, heck you could probably ship them over on a plane and pay them for $2k. 

I also do not see how this supposed 'professional' is going to advocate for you more than the midwives will.  Ridiculous service more likely to harm than help.

Precisely.  But this is yet another case where I just shake my head silently.

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2015, 06:08:23 PM »
Ridiculous service more likely to harm than help.

m'kay...

I think it's pretty easy to tell in this thread who has given birth with a doula and who either used a hospital or doesn't have kids yet.

I know many people who have had doulas for birth center or home births, and all of them consider it entirely worth it.  Myself included.
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LeRainDrop

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2015, 07:25:03 PM »
Ridiculous service more likely to harm than help.

m'kay...

I think it's pretty easy to tell in this thread who has given birth with a doula and who either used a hospital or doesn't have kids yet.

I know many people who have had doulas for birth center or home births, and all of them consider it entirely worth it.  Myself included.

Count me in the "doesn't have kids yet" group BUT has many friends who have given birth, plus a couple friends who are doulas, and therefore can see the value of a doula for many birthing mothers.  A doula is nothing like a butler, as the OP suggests.  They have significant training and knowledge, plus their bedside manner and advocacy with the medical team can be very beneficial for the mother.  When I have children, I have no idea yet whether I'll hire a doula or not, but I certainly would not be so cavalier to dismiss their value, like the OP does.  $600 for this extra care and peace-of-mind really doesn't seem like a lot to me.

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2015, 09:50:32 PM »
Ridiculous service more likely to harm than help.

m'kay...

I think it's pretty easy to tell in this thread who has given birth with a doula and who either used a hospital or doesn't have kids yet.

I know many people who have had doulas for birth center or home births, and all of them consider it entirely worth it.  Myself included.

Exactly. 

I can only assume you've never experienced birth, nor witnessed it.  There's a reason it's called LABOR. 

As one who has served as a doula for my own sister, friends, and as a favor to a professional doula-friend, I can tell you that those mamas view their births as life-changing, soul-stirring, empowering experiences, and hiring a doula as a support, comforter, and knowledgeable voice while in one of the most vulnerable positions a woman will ever find herself was priceless, to them. 

regulator

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2015, 10:18:48 PM »
Ridiculous service more likely to harm than help.

m'kay...

I think it's pretty easy to tell in this thread who has given birth with a doula and who either used a hospital or doesn't have kids yet.

I know many people who have had doulas for birth center or home births, and all of them consider it entirely worth it.  Myself included.

Exactly. 

I can only assume you've never experienced birth, nor witnessed it.  There's a reason it's called LABOR. 

As one who has served as a doula for my own sister, friends, and as a favor to a professional doula-friend, I can tell you that those mamas view their births as life-changing, soul-stirring, empowering experiences, and hiring a doula as a support, comforter, and knowledgeable voice while in one of the most vulnerable positions a woman will ever find herself was priceless, to them.

I have two kids and was there for the full length of the process.  Mystery to me wtf a doula does - we certainly had no need for one.  Waste of money, IMO.  Different strokes, I suppose.

Mark31

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2015, 10:45:10 PM »
If you get the right doula for you, they rock.

Our first birth, no doula, suckful. Second birth, doula, awesome (I can still get tearfully happy thinking about it). Third birth, no doula, a shit birth experience. There were more differences than just the doula, but still.

To the commenter that says an engaged husband can fill the role, no way! (Unless it’s maybe your eighth child). Doulas have more experience with all the myriad aspects of birth, plus if it’s a 24 hour labour, who’s spelling the husband? When you drive to the hospital, who’s looking after the mother after drop off and you’re away parking? Who’ll go in the back seat with the mother on the way to the hospital?

Also, the doula is there to support the mother, but is not as emotionally engaged and can advocate calmly for the mother’s needs. They come around several times before the birth, helping to mentally prepare the mother, and helping consider all the things that might happen.

As to the commenter who said you could get an obstetric registrar for the day, they are the last person you want hanging around. Obstetricians are trained to medically assist birth, not cheerfully hang around while the mother does it herself. You only want to see them when something needs doing. Otherwise it should be a midwife only space (and doulas).

Talking of midwives, they’re mostly fine people, but chances are the mother doesn’t know them from a bar of soap, and if they’ve read your birth-plan, they’ve probably forgotten it. They’re busy with other stuff. They might be caring, but that is not their main role.

For a birth to be the most rewarding, and to have the least chance of complications and intervention, the mother needs to feel safe and supported, and many women can get that through a doula.

Of course you can have a great birth without one, or a shit birth with one, but a doula will shift the odds in your favour.

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2015, 10:55:38 PM »
The doula is in addition to the team of medical professionals, but has enough medical background to be a useful advocate if something goes wrong.

Female patients find it extremely difficult to get their concerns taken seriously, but when there's a non-patient in the room advocating for the patient, somehow the same statement is taken seriously from the non-patient.

And for some $600 reason my BIL is incapable of doing so?


Unless he's a doctor, nurse, or other medical or birthing professional, the odds are unfortunately against him being taken as seriously as someone who's being paid to be there.
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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2015, 12:07:24 AM »
Actually, it sounds like your sister is being thoughtful and frugal, choosing a less costly apprentice over a full-priced journey(wo)man+ level. Plus, I don't understand why you're begrudging your sister an advocate that she's decided is necessary. The doula won't negate the comfort your BIL's will bring your sister, but she* will certainly bring more to the room and I can't see that as a bad thing.

I mean this sincerely, without any malice - you should do some more research, and see how your sister's birth goes before you make a final opinion on doulas. You may still find the service worthless, but you might end up being a convert. Why not allow yourself the chance to make a fully formed opinion?

 *Assuming she. Are there any male doulas?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 12:12:56 AM by Sailor Sam »

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2015, 02:55:35 AM »
I didn't have a doula, but after two non-medicated births, I can certainly understand why somebody would want one. Idk, $600 on something like that just doesn't seem wasteful or silly to me. Don't we always talk about spending on things that add value to your life? This seems like such a great example to me.


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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2015, 05:54:24 AM »
I think a doula is a wonderful idea.
Sure, dad can do many of the the things a doula does.  Maybe not all of them, and maybe not as well.
But having someone else do those things would mean dad can focus on his wife and they can both focus on the new baby.

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2015, 06:33:10 AM »
Quote
I think it's pretty easy to tell in this thread who has given birth with a doula and who either used a hospital or doesn't have kids yet.

I know many people who have had doulas for birth center or home births, and all of them consider it entirely worth it.  Myself included.

I think the above was said with the idea that only one group of people know what they're talking about (people who have used doulas). I happen to disagree. I think there are plenty of knowledgeable people who would question the need for a doula. I'm sure that having a doula present can make things easier during childbirth (a perfectly reasonable reason to consider hiring one). On the other hand, this is MMM, and spending $600 (or $2000) on a service that many would consider a luxury seems reasonable to question.

I have experience with childbirth, but not with doulas. In my case, we made sure there was a support network available to take care of the various needs; discuss preferences in advance with midwife, decide who will be present in the room (just wife and me in our case), outside support for looking after other kids, pets, cooking/cleaning house. We did this in the Netherlands, where the midwife support tends to be very personal and not rushed. I never felt that an extra person in the room was needed. I'm sure the right person could have added something positive, but that doesn't surprise me. I could hire someone any day of my life and they could add something positive if they're the right type of person.

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2015, 09:45:23 AM »
Purely from a US based point of view a pregnant mother can be a profit center for them. she’s in no state to object to what a Dr is proposing to do – or just does it anyway and over rides the patients wishes and birth plan.
From a purely financial perspective a Doula can save you way more than the $600 in medical charges. Plus by the time of birth you have met them a few times and built up a rapport with them. They are with you during the birth and advocate on your behalf. Way too often family members will blindly follow what the Docs recommend because that’s what the Doctor said – totally ignoring the wishes of the mother in labor.

3 had 3 kids. One in  hospital (awful experience), one at home in the UK with a couple of midwives (excellent) and one home birth in the USA with a couple of midwives (good – would have been better if they had turned up before the kid was born but she was in a hurry).
A doula would have helped in the first case and the last tow – if they had been hospital births we would have had a doula there.

Not in favor of them – I’m guessing you are either in the medical field and happy making more money from births – or you just don’t have any experience of them.
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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2015, 10:24:27 AM »
As to the commenter who said you could get an obstetric registrar for the day, they are the last person you want hanging around. Obstetricians are trained to medically assist birth, not cheerfully hang around while the mother does it herself. You only want to see them when something needs doing. Otherwise it should be a midwife only space (and doulas).

Talking of midwives, they’re mostly fine people, but chances are the mother doesn’t know them from a bar of soap, and if they’ve read your birth-plan, they’ve probably forgotten it. They’re busy with other stuff. They might be caring, but that is not their main role.
It sounds to me like the midwife/doula team parallels the doctor/nurse team. One is all-business and maybe kinda distant; the other is assistant and takes on a bunch of the "bedside manner" stuff.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 11:02:48 AM by maco »

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2015, 10:44:25 AM »
Sounds like the OP has already given her sister her piece of mind and was hoping everyone here would validate her thoughts. Sorry, but I think you have to admit you're wrong here.

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2015, 11:39:15 AM »
Yep.  Doulas all the way.  A doula is far from a luxury.

mm1970

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2015, 11:43:55 AM »
Ridiculous service more likely to harm than help.

m'kay...

I think it's pretty easy to tell in this thread who has given birth with a doula and who either used a hospital or doesn't have kids yet.

I know many people who have had doulas for birth center or home births, and all of them consider it entirely worth it.  Myself included.

Exactly. 

I can only assume you've never experienced birth, nor witnessed it.  There's a reason it's called LABOR. 

As one who has served as a doula for my own sister, friends, and as a favor to a professional doula-friend, I can tell you that those mamas view their births as life-changing, soul-stirring, empowering experiences, and hiring a doula as a support, comforter, and knowledgeable voice while in one of the most vulnerable positions a woman will ever find herself was priceless, to them.
I really wish I'd had one with the second baby.  He came so fast (1 hour after arriving).  My childbirth classes were 6 years prior, my husband was not there for most of it (because he was dropping our older child off with a friend, but he forgot to get the parking ticket validated, and he didn't even have $1.50 to pay the parking fee).

They brought in a second nurse to help, but man, it was still awful.  Awful.  Most painful thing I've ever done and I was ALONE.

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2015, 12:32:40 PM »
Sounds like the OP has already given her sister her piece of mind and was hoping everyone here would validate her thoughts. Sorry, but I think you have to admit you're wrong here.

+1 This is nothing like a butler.

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2015, 12:48:20 PM »
I went into labor at 11 pm. Sorry, husband, no sleep for you! Delivered the next day at 9 pm.

My mom was there with us; had she not been able to be present, I probably would have had a professional doula. My husband is a high school teacher who had gotten up that morning at 5:30, so without my mom to give him breaks, he would have had to be awake for 40 hours straight. Not a reasonable request.
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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2015, 01:24:20 PM »
I can appreciate having a butler(or doula) around for the first week after childbirth. A very hectic week, even more so if the husband returns back to work. Not just helping with the housework, but also just to have someone around besides mom and baby. $600 is steep, but as a one time cost, doesnt sound too ridiculous.

regulator

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2015, 02:20:17 PM »

Not in favor of them – I’m guessing you are either in the medical field and happy making more money from births – or you just don’t have any experience of them.

Nope, not in the medical field in any capacity whatsoever.  I was there at the birth of both of my children and I cannot fathom why anyone would need a butler doula.  Must be some kind of pampered upper class fad that has spread.  Different strokes.

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2015, 02:23:51 PM »
What was the birth location, out of curiosity?

Standard hospital, birth center, home birth, ?
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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2015, 02:41:47 PM »
I have experience with childbirth, but not with doulas. In my case, we made sure there was a support network available to take care of the various needs; discuss preferences in advance with midwife, decide who will be present in the room (just wife and me in our case), outside support for looking after other kids, pets, cooking/cleaning house. We did this in the Netherlands, where the midwife support tends to be very personal and not rushed. I never felt that an extra person in the room was needed.

I have never seen any support in any U.S. medical facility that was personal and not rushed, it sounds like your midwife did a lot of what a Doula does here.  I will also say that in my experience, a person present who knows their way around the medical system and knows the jargon as an interface makes a big difference in the quality of care you get in a hospital here.  My wife, who doesn't have formal medical training but does have a Biology degree and an excellent memory, probably saved both her father's and my father's life in different hospital situations by knowing what things to challenge the staff on and what questions to ask. 

regulator

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2015, 02:51:52 PM »
What was the birth location, out of curiosity?

Standard hospital, birth center, home birth, ?

A hospital.

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2015, 02:56:47 PM »
When I have to be helpless in a hospital, I've always made sure to bring a scary-looking gym buddy. I'm convinced it improves the quality of my medical care.
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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2015, 07:43:25 AM »
I had doulas for both births (one hospital, one home). 

I think the birth experiences in other countries does not compare at all.  If you had a lovely experience in the Netherlands, its a safe bet that it was nothing like a similar birth in the US.  There is a reason our birth statistics are shit.

I would argue that doulas save money over all- lower risk of complications like C/S, induction, pain meds, etc all result in a lower hospital bill, a faster recovery, a better chance of nursing, and they also provide nursing support after the birth.

Some dads are well equipped to be the birth partner.  Most aren't, either because they just aren't, or because labor is too long for one person to be the support person for the whole 24+ hours.  My H fell in the "just not a good support person" category.  He doesn't have a lot of medical knowledge, he doesn't know much about babies, etc.  He would never have thought to ask the nurse to get me a cup of ice water to sip on between contractions, or to put pressure on my lower back, or whatever.  And the nurses aren't doing that stuff, at least not the whole time- they are charting and monitoring, and they have more than one patient.  Plus, while he was hypothetically off getting me ice water, that leaves no one with me. 

My 600$ included 3 before birth meetings, labor support, and 2 PP visits.  Plus unlimited phone convos, and her being on call.  Seems like a pretty good deal to me.  For my 2nd birth, 2 doula friends did it for free.  Around here, some hospitals provide them for all moms (they improve outcomes!) and especially for medicaid patients.  In fact, in some states medicaid covers doulas because they lower birth costs overall, saving the state money.

Doulas are a great example of evidence based medicine.  But that's cool, you don't have to hire a "butler" if you don't want one.  However, maybe you should do just a tiny smidge of research before you form an opinion about something you clearly know nothing about.
Journal:  http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/mayday's-journal/350/  featuring children, chickens (new!) and other ch words.

MayDay

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2015, 07:47:00 AM »
In case the OP is too lazy to google:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3617571/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3647727/

But hey!  Low birth weight babies, premature babies, and a C/S rate of 30%+ is no big deal!  Who needs a doula?  USA!  Murica!  We've got the best healthcare in the world!  (Unless you are giving birth, in which case fuck you). 
Journal:  http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/mayday's-journal/350/  featuring children, chickens (new!) and other ch words.

regulator

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2015, 10:20:09 AM »
In case the OP is too lazy to google:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3617571/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3647727/

But hey!  Low birth weight babies, premature babies, and a C/S rate of 30%+ is no big deal!  Who needs a doula?  USA!  Murica!  We've got the best healthcare in the world!  (Unless you are giving birth, in which case fuck you).

Gee you think there might be some bias in those populations/studies?  How many of the non-doula Medicaid births were from drug addicted mothers, for example?  Think that number might be higher than the self-selecting population that had the resources or the involvement to hire a birth butler doula?

But hey, its cool.  Enjoy your biases.  We all do, just some of us admit to having them.

Sailor Sam

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2015, 10:36:42 AM »
In case the OP is too lazy to google:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3617571/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3647727/

But hey!  Low birth weight babies, premature babies, and a C/S rate of 30%+ is no big deal!  Who needs a doula?  USA!  Murica!  We've got the best healthcare in the world!  (Unless you are giving birth, in which case fuck you).

Gee you think there might be some bias in those populations/studies?  How many of the non-doula Medicaid births were from drug addicted mothers, for example?  Think that number might be higher than the self-selecting population that had the resources or the involvement to hire a birth butler doula?

But hey, its cool.  Enjoy your biases.  We all do, just some of us admit to having them.

Hey now. There's some unnecessary escalation happening here. It's pretty clear neither of you is likely to change the other's minds. Lets keep rule #1 in mind, and just walk away.

vivophoenix

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2015, 11:04:08 AM »
if $600 will make the woman, who is  pushing a new person out of her vagina, feel safe and happier, as well as, the new person safer, why does the OP care?

$600 to assist in the safe transit of new life seems pretty low on the mock-able scale.

a doula  is not a butler,  and its for one day. 

she is bringing in an expert to help. sure,  this expert isn't a Dr or a nurse, but you don't NEED a dr or a nurse. you could argue you don't NEED a Doula.  but a birthing mother does NEED people in her corner with experience and that is a doula.

go find something else to mock your family about.

you don't agree, which is obvious, but its not your vagina, nor your baby. nor in the end, your pocket book

regulator

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2015, 11:44:26 AM »
go find something else to mock your family about.

you don't agree, which is obvious, but its not your vagina, nor your baby. nor in the end, your pocket book

Well then, lets just do away with the entire wall of shame forum .  After all, not our pocketbooks/orifices/houses/debt/lives, right?  Who cares?

UnleashHell

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2015, 11:51:52 AM »
go find something else to mock your family about.

you don't agree, which is obvious, but its not your vagina, nor your baby. nor in the end, your pocket book

Well then, lets just do away with the entire wall of shame forum .  After all, not our pocketbooks/orifices/houses/debt/lives, right?  Who cares?

People are wrong occasionally. Its ok to admit it.
you should try it.


Its also OK to get educated about things that you are woefully ignorant of.
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Sailor Sam

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2015, 11:52:07 AM »
Well then, lets just do away with the entire wall of shame forum .  After all, not our pocketbooks/orifices/houses/debt/lives, right?  Who cares?

Not a terrible idea (though I realize I'm taking your post out of context). The longest running post on this forum is the one where we mock and judge our coworkers. What does that reflect on our own mustaches?

vivophoenix

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2015, 12:05:58 PM »
go find something else to mock your family about.

you don't agree, which is obvious, but its not your vagina, nor your baby. nor in the end, your pocket book

Well then, lets just do away with the entire wall of shame forum .  After all, not our pocketbooks/orifices/houses/debt/lives, right?  Who cares?


oh sorry, in that case:

BHAHAHAHAh!!! they want to spend how much,  making sure the Dr doesnt cut her rectum against her wishes?!

what shills!  $600 to make sure mother and baby have a great delivery experience!   in 20 years that $200 could have been 2,796.57,  if they had invested it in an index fund. one day they will look back and realize they were huge chumps. and you were soooo right

regulator

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2015, 12:11:10 PM »
go find something else to mock your family about.

you don't agree, which is obvious, but its not your vagina, nor your baby. nor in the end, your pocket book

Well then, lets just do away with the entire wall of shame forum .  After all, not our pocketbooks/orifices/houses/debt/lives, right?  Who cares?


oh sorry, in that case:

BHAHAHAHAh!!! they want to spend how much,  making sure the Dr doesnt cut her rectum against her wishes?!

what shills!  $600 to make sure mother and baby have a great delivery experience!   in 20 years that $200 could have been 2,796.57,  if they had invested it in an index fund. one day they will look back and realize they were huge chumps. and you were soooo right

I have read all the arguments and read the links that claim doulas are magically empowered delivery people.  I still see no credible evidence that this isn't just an upper middle class women's fad and an expensive one at that.  You feel different, well, it is your pocketbook/orifice/life/whatever.  Have fun indulging your fancies.  I will indulge my sense of humor at your expense.  You might try it some time.

Gin1984

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2015, 12:15:10 PM »
go find something else to mock your family about.

you don't agree, which is obvious, but its not your vagina, nor your baby. nor in the end, your pocket book

Well then, lets just do away with the entire wall of shame forum .  After all, not our pocketbooks/orifices/houses/debt/lives, right?  Who cares?


oh sorry, in that case:

BHAHAHAHAh!!! they want to spend how much,  making sure the Dr doesnt cut her rectum against her wishes?!

what shills!  $600 to make sure mother and baby have a great delivery experience!   in 20 years that $200 could have been 2,796.57,  if they had invested it in an index fund. one day they will look back and realize they were huge chumps. and you were soooo right

I have read all the arguments and read the links that claim doulas are magically empowered delivery people.  I still see no credible evidence that this isn't just an upper middle class women's fad and an expensive one at that.  You feel different, well, it is your pocketbook/orifice/life/whatever.  Have fun indulging your fancies.  I will indulge my sense of humor at your expense.  You might try it some time.
So peer reviewed data is not credible evidence?  And your bolded comment was not what the data said, perhaps your understanding is the issue, not the data.

jezebel

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2015, 12:27:30 PM »
I have experience with childbirth, but not with doulas. In my case, we made sure there was a support network available to take care of the various needs; discuss preferences in advance with midwife, decide who will be present in the room (just wife and me in our case), outside support for looking after other kids, pets, cooking/cleaning house. We did this in the Netherlands, where the midwife support tends to be very personal and not rushed. I never felt that an extra person in the room was needed.

I have never seen any support in any U.S. medical facility that was personal and not rushed, it sounds like your midwife did a lot of what a Doula does here.  I will also say that in my experience, a person present who knows their way around the medical system and knows the jargon as an interface makes a big difference in the quality of care you get in a hospital here.  My wife, who doesn't have formal medical training but does have a Biology degree and an excellent memory, probably saved both her father's and my father's life in different hospital situations by knowing what things to challenge the staff on and what questions to ask.

I had two children in a hospital, one with epidural/one non-medicated.  Both experiences were great and decidedly not rushed.  The nurses were wonderful.  In both of my experiences, a doula would have been useless, although I can see why some people are in favor.  On the other hand, they are definitely a recent "fad."

regulator

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2015, 12:43:49 PM »
go find something else to mock your family about.

you don't agree, which is obvious, but its not your vagina, nor your baby. nor in the end, your pocket book

Well then, lets just do away with the entire wall of shame forum .  After all, not our pocketbooks/orifices/houses/debt/lives, right?  Who cares?


oh sorry, in that case:

BHAHAHAHAh!!! they want to spend how much,  making sure the Dr doesnt cut her rectum against her wishes?!

what shills!  $600 to make sure mother and baby have a great delivery experience!   in 20 years that $200 could have been 2,796.57,  if they had invested it in an index fund. one day they will look back and realize they were huge chumps. and you were soooo right

I have read all the arguments and read the links that claim doulas are magically empowered delivery people.  I still see no credible evidence that this isn't just an upper middle class women's fad and an expensive one at that.  You feel different, well, it is your pocketbook/orifice/life/whatever.  Have fun indulging your fancies.  I will indulge my sense of humor at your expense.  You might try it some time.
So peer reviewed data is not credible evidence?  And your bolded comment was not what the data said, perhaps your understanding is the issue, not the data.

You talking about the two linked studies talking about medicaid beneficiaries?  Not credible beyond pointing out the obvious: the mothers who were self selected as the least addled members of the studied population had better outcomes.  Says nothing useful as to whether having a doula is beneficial (or harmful) if you were to remove that massive confounding effect.  I like studies as well as anyone, but one should read all of them with a grain of salt.

Gin1984

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2015, 12:48:52 PM »
go find something else to mock your family about.

you don't agree, which is obvious, but its not your vagina, nor your baby. nor in the end, your pocket book

Well then, lets just do away with the entire wall of shame forum .  After all, not our pocketbooks/orifices/houses/debt/lives, right?  Who cares?


oh sorry, in that case:

BHAHAHAHAh!!! they want to spend how much,  making sure the Dr doesnt cut her rectum against her wishes?!

what shills!  $600 to make sure mother and baby have a great delivery experience!   in 20 years that $200 could have been 2,796.57,  if they had invested it in an index fund. one day they will look back and realize they were huge chumps. and you were soooo right

I have read all the arguments and read the links that claim doulas are magically empowered delivery people.  I still see no credible evidence that this isn't just an upper middle class women's fad and an expensive one at that.  You feel different, well, it is your pocketbook/orifice/life/whatever.  Have fun indulging your fancies.  I will indulge my sense of humor at your expense.  You might try it some time.
So peer reviewed data is not credible evidence?  And your bolded comment was not what the data said, perhaps your understanding is the issue, not the data.

You talking about the two linked studies talking about medicaid beneficiaries?  Not credible beyond pointing out the obvious: the mothers who were self selected as the least addled members of the studied population had better outcomes.  Says nothing useful as to whether having a doula is beneficial (or harmful) if you were to remove that massive confounding effect.  I like studies as well as anyone, but one should read all of them with a grain of salt.
Given that both groups were part of "a prenatal health and childbirth education program." how do you determine that those who, of that group, chose to have a doula are as you said "self selected as the least addled members of the studied population".  In fact according to the study "They were similar in age, race/ethnicity, income status, and geographic location. All of the mothers had participated in at least three of the agency’s childbirth classes, and all received case management as part of their participation with the agency."  So where is your statements coming from?

regulator

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2015, 12:53:38 PM »
go find something else to mock your family about.

you don't agree, which is obvious, but its not your vagina, nor your baby. nor in the end, your pocket book

Well then, lets just do away with the entire wall of shame forum .  After all, not our pocketbooks/orifices/houses/debt/lives, right?  Who cares?


oh sorry, in that case:

BHAHAHAHAh!!! they want to spend how much,  making sure the Dr doesnt cut her rectum against her wishes?!

what shills!  $600 to make sure mother and baby have a great delivery experience!   in 20 years that $200 could have been 2,796.57,  if they had invested it in an index fund. one day they will look back and realize they were huge chumps. and you were soooo right

I have read all the arguments and read the links that claim doulas are magically empowered delivery people.  I still see no credible evidence that this isn't just an upper middle class women's fad and an expensive one at that.  You feel different, well, it is your pocketbook/orifice/life/whatever.  Have fun indulging your fancies.  I will indulge my sense of humor at your expense.  You might try it some time.
So peer reviewed data is not credible evidence?  And your bolded comment was not what the data said, perhaps your understanding is the issue, not the data.

You talking about the two linked studies talking about medicaid beneficiaries?  Not credible beyond pointing out the obvious: the mothers who were self selected as the least addled members of the studied population had better outcomes.  Says nothing useful as to whether having a doula is beneficial (or harmful) if you were to remove that massive confounding effect.  I like studies as well as anyone, but one should read all of them with a grain of salt.
Given that both groups were part of "a prenatal health and childbirth education program." how do you determine that those who, of that group, chose to have a doula are as you said "self selected as the least addled members of the studied population".  In fact according to the study "They were similar in age, race/ethnicity, income status, and geographic location. All of the mothers had participated in at least three of the agency’s childbirth classes, and all received case management as part of their participation with the agency."  So where is your statements coming from?

Did we control for drug addiction, general health, presence of husband/baby daddy, etc?  Nope.  So it s hard to generalize or make conclusions from these studies.  No doubt you are aware how many studies have to be done in order to "prove" something sufficiently to make a public policy or medical decision based on said studies.  This ain't it.  But I know that you have an axe to grind, so grind away.

Gin1984

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2015, 02:01:23 PM »
go find something else to mock your family about.

you don't agree, which is obvious, but its not your vagina, nor your baby. nor in the end, your pocket book

Well then, lets just do away with the entire wall of shame forum .  After all, not our pocketbooks/orifices/houses/debt/lives, right?  Who cares?


oh sorry, in that case:

BHAHAHAHAh!!! they want to spend how much,  making sure the Dr doesnt cut her rectum against her wishes?!

what shills!  $600 to make sure mother and baby have a great delivery experience!   in 20 years that $200 could have been 2,796.57,  if they had invested it in an index fund. one day they will look back and realize they were huge chumps. and you were soooo right

I have read all the arguments and read the links that claim doulas are magically empowered delivery people.  I still see no credible evidence that this isn't just an upper middle class women's fad and an expensive one at that.  You feel different, well, it is your pocketbook/orifice/life/whatever.  Have fun indulging your fancies.  I will indulge my sense of humor at your expense.  You might try it some time.
So peer reviewed data is not credible evidence?  And your bolded comment was not what the data said, perhaps your understanding is the issue, not the data.

You talking about the two linked studies talking about medicaid beneficiaries?  Not credible beyond pointing out the obvious: the mothers who were self selected as the least addled members of the studied population had better outcomes.  Says nothing useful as to whether having a doula is beneficial (or harmful) if you were to remove that massive confounding effect.  I like studies as well as anyone, but one should read all of them with a grain of salt.
Given that both groups were part of "a prenatal health and childbirth education program." how do you determine that those who, of that group, chose to have a doula are as you said "self selected as the least addled members of the studied population".  In fact according to the study "They were similar in age, race/ethnicity, income status, and geographic location. All of the mothers had participated in at least three of the agency’s childbirth classes, and all received case management as part of their participation with the agency."  So where is your statements coming from?

Did we control for drug addiction, general health, presence of husband/baby daddy, etc?  Nope.  So it s hard to generalize or make conclusions from these studies.  No doubt you are aware how many studies have to be done in order to "prove" something sufficiently to make a public policy or medical decision based on said studies.  This ain't it.  But I know that you have an axe to grind, so grind away.
My only "axe" is that peer reviewed studies are pretty much the gold standard for "credible evidence", and to pretend they are not just because you don't like the result and to state that the methodology was flawed without actual basis just bias is something I certainly object to. 
But on the topic of bias, you incorrectly assume mine.  I did not have a doula nor do I plan to.  My object was soley on your statements.

regulator

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2015, 02:06:51 PM »
go find something else to mock your family about.

you don't agree, which is obvious, but its not your vagina, nor your baby. nor in the end, your pocket book

Well then, lets just do away with the entire wall of shame forum .  After all, not our pocketbooks/orifices/houses/debt/lives, right?  Who cares?


oh sorry, in that case:

BHAHAHAHAh!!! they want to spend how much,  making sure the Dr doesnt cut her rectum against her wishes?!

what shills!  $600 to make sure mother and baby have a great delivery experience!   in 20 years that $200 could have been 2,796.57,  if they had invested it in an index fund. one day they will look back and realize they were huge chumps. and you were soooo right

I have read all the arguments and read the links that claim doulas are magically empowered delivery people.  I still see no credible evidence that this isn't just an upper middle class women's fad and an expensive one at that.  You feel different, well, it is your pocketbook/orifice/life/whatever.  Have fun indulging your fancies.  I will indulge my sense of humor at your expense.  You might try it some time.
So peer reviewed data is not credible evidence?  And your bolded comment was not what the data said, perhaps your understanding is the issue, not the data.

You talking about the two linked studies talking about medicaid beneficiaries?  Not credible beyond pointing out the obvious: the mothers who were self selected as the least addled members of the studied population had better outcomes.  Says nothing useful as to whether having a doula is beneficial (or harmful) if you were to remove that massive confounding effect.  I like studies as well as anyone, but one should read all of them with a grain of salt.
Given that both groups were part of "a prenatal health and childbirth education program." how do you determine that those who, of that group, chose to have a doula are as you said "self selected as the least addled members of the studied population".  In fact according to the study "They were similar in age, race/ethnicity, income status, and geographic location. All of the mothers had participated in at least three of the agency’s childbirth classes, and all received case management as part of their participation with the agency."  So where is your statements coming from?

Did we control for drug addiction, general health, presence of husband/baby daddy, etc?  Nope.  So it s hard to generalize or make conclusions from these studies.  No doubt you are aware how many studies have to be done in order to "prove" something sufficiently to make a public policy or medical decision based on said studies.  This ain't it.  But I know that you have an axe to grind, so grind away.
My only "axe" is that peer reviewed studies are pretty much the gold standard for "credible evidence", and to pretend they are not just because you don't like the result and to state that the methodology was flawed without actual basis just bias is something I certainly object to. 
But on the topic of bias, you incorrectly assume mine.  I did not have a doula nor do I plan to.  My object was soley on your statements.

No, your biases are wider than that.

Peer reviewed studies are not the be all and end all, particularly not a couple of small studies done on a particular subpopulation.  Ask any researcher or medical professional (which obviously excludes doulas).  But you of course will never concede a point that does not square with your preconceptions, so have at it.

gaja

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Re: So you are hiring a butler for a day?
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2015, 02:28:04 PM »
I have experience with childbirth, but not with doulas. In my case, we made sure there was a support network available to take care of the various needs; discuss preferences in advance with midwife, decide who will be present in the room (just wife and me in our case), outside support for looking after other kids, pets, cooking/cleaning house. We did this in the Netherlands, where the midwife support tends to be very personal and not rushed. I never felt that an extra person in the room was needed.

I have never seen any support in any U.S. medical facility that was personal and not rushed, it sounds like your midwife did a lot of what a Doula does here.  I will also say that in my experience, a person present who knows their way around the medical system and knows the jargon as an interface makes a big difference in the quality of care you get in a hospital here.  My wife, who doesn't have formal medical training but does have a Biology degree and an excellent memory, probably saved both her father's and my father's life in different hospital situations by knowing what things to challenge the staff on and what questions to ask.

I had two children in a hospital, one with epidural/one non-medicated.  Both experiences were great and decidedly not rushed.  The nurses were wonderful.  In both of my experiences, a doula would have been useless, although I can see why some people are in favor.  On the other hand, they are definitely a recent "fad."

I also had two kids in hospitals. In the first one, we were well taken care of, and a doula would just have been annoying. In the second case (different hospital), the midwife had several other births to attend and my mother had to stick her head out of the corridor and yell for help when shtf. The doctors went to the wrong floor, and the baby had agpar 0 when she finally was released. (That means dead, in layman terms). After resusitation and helicopter to a better hospital, she survived. But I would have LOVED to have someone present who could make sure things were done the way they should have been. In the old days it would have been a couple of aunts, in modern times a doula.
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