Author Topic: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!  (Read 11744 times)

panda

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2018, 12:02:46 PM »
- the massive land acquisition of former First Nation lands during the westward US expansion, through the "claim" system of farming wherein anyone who happened to be male, white, and over the age of 21 was given the right to claim 160 acres (a quarter section) of land for farming purposes, provided of course that the land was not claimed by any other white male people over the age of 21
Perhaps you are referring to the situation in Canada, but in the United States the Homestead Acts where much more liberal in what they allowed:

- Homestead Act of 1862 - any adult (21 years of age, or head of household) who had never taken up arms against the U.S. Government to include women and immigrants who applied for citizenship.
- Homestead Act of 1866 - explicitly includes African-Americans and encourages them to participate.


talltexan

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2018, 01:48:17 PM »
I'm laughing at this guy: "How do you save anything when you make under $10 an hour? Even in the 80s."  Because I went to college in the late '80s, and my mom was making around $20K/yr, which if you do the math is basically $10/hr, as a college professor.  And she still managed to save for her retirement and put enough away for my college to cover the expected parental contribution.  $10 in the '80s was an ok amount of money -- not rich by any means, but minimum wage was $3.35!  (I know, because that's what I got paid!  When I went to work as a Kelly Girl and made $5/hr, it was freaking awesome.)
I made  $3.25 an hour in 1986. My job affected my grades, so I dropped it rather than lose my scholarship (Alberta Heritage Scholarship fund) given to everyone of highschool age who had an 80% average that year.

And for those of you who don't know what Alberta is, it's like Texas. Only bigger.
Don't tell a Texan that.  Them fight'n words.

I have been summoned.

Actually had a friend from Calgary when I was in graduate school. He was basically like me, but didn't suffer during Chicago winters because he'd learned to keep himself sane by thinking in Celsius.

As far as land area: Alberta measures 661,848 km^2, Texas measures 696,200 km^2, so Texas is actually still bigger by 5% or so. I'm as surprised as you, but it must be because those maps distort places in the North so much that we all think Canadian provinces are so big.

PrairieBeardstache

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2018, 02:15:53 PM »
I'm as surprised as you, but it must be because those maps distort places in the North so much that we all think Canadian provinces are so big.

They are. Alberta is about average. Same as Saskatchewan, and Manitoba. Ontario, Quebec, BC, Nunavut, and the North West Territories are all larger.

1    Nunavut   2,093,190   
2    Quebec   1,542,056   
3    Northwest Territories   1,346,106
4    Ontario   1,076,395
5    British Columbia   944,735   
6    Alberta   661,848   
7    Saskatchewan   651,036   
8    Manitoba   647,797   
9    Yukon   482,443
10    Newfoundland and Labrador   405,212   
11    New Brunswick   72,908   
12    Nova Scotia   55,284
13    Prince Edward Island   5,660

talltexan

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2018, 06:52:51 AM »
American States (by total area):

Alaska: 1,723,337 km^2
Texas: 695,662 (this is a different source)
California: 423,972
Montana: 380,831
New Mexico: 314,917
Arizona: 295,234

interestingly, there are 11 more states that exceed 200,000 km^2 in area. New Brunswick would rank 41st if it somehow became a US state, which I cannot imagine, because from everything I've hear, the party never stops there.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2018, 08:56:22 AM »
American States (by total area):

Alaska: 1,723,337 km^2
Texas: 695,662 (this is a different source)
California: 423,972
Montana: 380,831
New Mexico: 314,917
Arizona: 295,234

interestingly, there are 11 more states that exceed 200,000 km^2 in area. New Brunswick would rank 41st if it somehow became a US state, which I cannot imagine, because from everything I've hear, the party never stops there.

I rode through New Brunswick in 1995 and thought it was the most beautiful place I'd ever seen.

The Canadian Maritime provinces are quite small because the political boundaries were drawn up before major travel infrastructure was really a "thing". I see a similar phenomenon in the northeastern US states: you can drive across most of them in a day if you're lucky about traffic. Rhode Island and Maine, for example, are almost microscopic compared to the Western states. It seems to me that the original European colonies that later became states and provinces tended to be geographically contained because there *weren't* railroads or highways available. The waterways were the major trade routes for a long time.

talltexan

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2018, 11:13:18 AM »
Note: if you're a textbook mustachian (saving 60% of your income), this would imply having 5X your expenses saved by age 35...probably means you have about another 7 years of working still ahead of you.

facepalm

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2018, 02:18:20 PM »
Agreed, tedious statement


Guys Guys Guys! It was a joke, it didn't break the internet. I just read about it all the time on yahoo.com and thought I would continue it in joking manor!!!

Joking Manor? Do you mean a funhouse?


I fail to see what the issue is . . . I save double my salary every four years.

kimmarg

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2018, 07:28:49 PM »
The Canadian Maritime provinces are quite small because the political boundaries were drawn up before major travel infrastructure was really a "thing". I see a similar phenomenon in the northeastern US states: you can drive across most of them in a day if you're lucky about traffic. Rhode Island and Maine, for example, are almost microscopic compared to the Western states.

Did you mean Massachusetts and Rhode Island? Maine is 350 miles top to bottom.... that's comparable to Colorado or Wyoming.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2018, 09:26:22 PM »
The Canadian Maritime provinces are quite small because the political boundaries were drawn up before major travel infrastructure was really a "thing". I see a similar phenomenon in the northeastern US states: you can drive across most of them in a day if you're lucky about traffic. Rhode Island and Maine, for example, are almost microscopic compared to the Western states.

Did you mean Massachusetts and Rhode Island? Maine is 350 miles top to bottom.... that's comparable to Colorado or Wyoming.

Top to bottom is Maine's longest dimension, though. It's sort of diamond shaped, and the northwestern portion is sparsely inhabited so most of the infrastructure's farther south. So, maybe not microscopic but there's a concentration of population not often seen in a state that's been settled that long.

Agreed re: Massachusetts. Delaware and Connecticut are likewise miniscule.

Penn42

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2018, 10:41:48 AM »
I think something that muddies the waters on the topic of saving with a lower income is approaching it with an ER mindset.  I don't think there's much of an argument to be made that being able to retire significantly early requires varying amounts of privilege. 

It seems to me that many who will not be able to retire early use that as an excuse to not save at all.  Saving 10% of a 30k income is obviously not going to let you retire in your 30's or even 40's.  But by the time normal retirement age comes around those savings would be significant.  It's a longer game (and likely a more frustrating one knowing some people accomplish the same thing much more quickly), but isn't saving for the future better than not saving at all?

ixtap

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2018, 12:44:29 PM »
I think something that muddies the waters on the topic of saving with a lower income is approaching it with an ER mindset.  I don't think there's much of an argument to be made that being able to retire significantly early requires varying amounts of privilege. 

It seems to me that many who will not be able to retire early use that as an excuse to not save at all.  Saving 10% of a 30k income is obviously not going to let you retire in your 30's or even 40's.  But by the time normal retirement age comes around those savings would be significant.  It's a longer game (and likely a more frustrating one knowing some people accomplish the same thing much more quickly), but isn't saving for the future better than not saving at all?

The problem is when you save for the future, but then your mother needs money to avoid being homeless. You didn't get to have fun with your money nor do you get a future with it. Much better to have some fun and hope someone else steps up for mom.

Penn42

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2018, 01:26:27 PM »
I think something that muddies the waters on the topic of saving with a lower income is approaching it with an ER mindset.  I don't think there's much of an argument to be made that being able to retire significantly early requires varying amounts of privilege. 

It seems to me that many who will not be able to retire early use that as an excuse to not save at all.  Saving 10% of a 30k income is obviously not going to let you retire in your 30's or even 40's.  But by the time normal retirement age comes around those savings would be significant.  It's a longer game (and likely a more frustrating one knowing some people accomplish the same thing much more quickly), but isn't saving for the future better than not saving at all?

The problem is when you save for the future, but then your mother needs money to avoid being homeless. You didn't get to have fun with your money nor do you get a future with it. Much better to have some fun and hope someone else steps up for mom.

Good point.  Family stability is a whole other area of privilege that I would imagine comes with higher incomes. 

I currently have a peer at work who comes from a very hectic family life.  He's working hard and making a more stable life for himself, but there's always somebody who needs money or favors because they burned bridges with everyone else. He's having to learn he can't be everybody's safety net, at painful as it may be.   Since knowing him I've really had my eyes opened to how privileged my own family life was/is.

Never thought of applying that privilege to a situation such as my earlier example.  Definitely a complicating factor.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #62 on: June 09, 2018, 07:42:08 AM »
I think something that muddies the waters on the topic of saving with a lower income is approaching it with an ER mindset.  I don't think there's much of an argument to be made that being able to retire significantly early requires varying amounts of privilege. 

It seems to me that many who will not be able to retire early use that as an excuse to not save at all.  Saving 10% of a 30k income is obviously not going to let you retire in your 30's or even 40's.  But by the time normal retirement age comes around those savings would be significant.  It's a longer game (and likely a more frustrating one knowing some people accomplish the same thing much more quickly), but isn't saving for the future better than not saving at all?

The problem is when you save for the future, but then your mother needs money to avoid being homeless. You didn't get to have fun with your money nor do you get a future with it. Much better to have some fun and hope someone else steps up for mom.

Good point.  Family stability is a whole other area of privilege that I would imagine comes with higher incomes. 

I currently have a peer at work who comes from a very hectic family life.  He's working hard and making a more stable life for himself, but there's always somebody who needs money or favors because they burned bridges with everyone else. He's having to learn he can't be everybody's safety net, at painful as it may be.   Since knowing him I've really had my eyes opened to how privileged my own family life was/is.

Never thought of applying that privilege to a situation such as my earlier example.  Definitely a complicating factor.

Privilege is a surprisingly weird and complicated thing. There are about a dozen different ways of looking at it on this message board alone.

DblEntry

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2018, 12:48:17 AM »
Well I'm 34 in September and my wife and I seem to be doing OK even with a two year old daughter. The only inheritance /gift we had was approx. 20,000 from my wife's grandfather back in 2011 which did help us buy our first home.



I already see it in my workplace with millennials who are slightly younger than me. Many of them do not prioritise a well paid career and want do do other things with life. That's fine but they often can't have it all unfortunately and they need to recognise the financial cost. In the UK we have record unemployment so there are plenty of stepping stones to well paid careers.

Then again I think my temperament is more like a Gen X so maybe I just don't "get it".

Aside from our joint expenses (bills/groceries/family trips out) I spend no more than 150 per month on personal items. To be honest I just can't think of stuff I want to buy. For example I don't buy designer clothes, I buy well made classic items including John Lewis own label often in the sale.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 12:51:10 AM by DblEntry »

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2018, 10:00:49 AM »
33 Here (wife is 34) and our current net worth is a bit more than 1x my annual income. Actual retirement savings specifically are about 0.75x of my income. We have five kids with number six on the way and my wife stays at home to take care of the kids and homeschool them. We knew very early on that we would always be behind our dual-income peers since we planned to homeschool and have a large family. Certainly won't be hitting 2x my salary in retirement savings, or even net worth by 35 but I also don't expect to have to work until I'm in my late 60s. I should have a modest military pension starting at 60 and possibly another small one from my current federal job, assuming I work here a few years longer. Definitely plan to be able to retire by the time I'm 60, hopefully a but sooner.

grandep

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2018, 03:40:45 PM »
I realize the conversation in this thread has drifted from this a bit, but I read a lot of comments saying that people would "support some kind of social safety net that provides a floor for the poorest Americans".

We already have this. The US spends a significant portion of our GDP on social safety nets. Also, when you include Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, welfare, disability, unemployment, etc., the United States has the second lowest Gini coefficient among all developed nations, behind only France.

Steven Pinker wrote a great chapter in "Enlightenment Now" about how the "problem" of income inequality in the US is mostly a red herring. In general, inequality in income is not a significant factor in human unhappiness (inasmuch as people are unaffected by "relative deprivation" i.e. feeling unhappy only because the Jones' next door make more than they do). What is a legitimate problem, and what many people refer to as "inequality", is unfairness. I think there is a feeling that the US economy is "unfair", but that is different from "unequal". Furthermore it is not difficult to find countries that are very unequal but also very happy (Singapore, Hong Kong) or that are equal but unhappy (former Soviet Union countries).

Also, if a certain slice of the US population earned 10% of all income in 1980 and still earns 10% of all income today would earn significantly more in absolute income due to overall GDP per capita growth in the US over and above inflation. But people see that the relative amount has stayed the same and think that someone is earning the exact same amount of money (the "lump fallacy").

Millennials (of which I am one) have a strong sense of justice so they feel like they are "sticking up" for the poor by reacting angrily to articles like this one. So their moral outrage is born from good intentions. But I think that righteous outrage too often turns into blaming the world for their own problems. No doubt there are people who have been made the "losers" of our economy, but I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of those Twitter warriors are not one of them. I agree with what another poster said, that too few people of my generation are willing to say "What is in my circle of influence? What can I do right now to affect my life?" More people ought to read "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People".
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 03:42:56 PM by grandep »

Just Joe

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2018, 02:07:29 PM »
Saving twice my salary at age 35 - that was easy b/c my income was terribly low b/c I was fresh out of the military and attending college.

DW and I got a late start but we're doing fine now. Won't retire in our 40s but should retire around age 60.

What we have is financial security and freedom from typical life challenges like an inability to repair the car or pay for some school fee for our kids, etc. Sending junior to State U - especially if they attend locally - will be easy and out of pocket rather than via loans. Junior won't have deluxe experience with new(ish) car and luxury apartment but that won't hurt junior.

We used all the typical MMM strategies discussed frequently here.

talltexan

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #67 on: June 27, 2018, 12:20:36 PM »

We already have this. The US spends a significant portion of our GDP on social safety nets. Also, when you include Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, welfare, disability, unemployment, etc., the United States has the second lowest Gini coefficient among all developed nations, behind only France.



I'd like to see a source on this Gini coefficient.

grandep

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2018, 12:50:13 PM »

We already have this. The US spends a significant portion of our GDP on social safety nets. Also, when you include Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, welfare, disability, unemployment, etc., the United States has the second lowest Gini coefficient among all developed nations, behind only France.



I'd like to see a source on this Gini coefficient.

I read that in the aforementioned Pinker book, which I just returned to the library two days ago, so I unfortunately can't look up the reference he used. This link says differently, so I'm not sure what source Pinker used.

Arbitrage

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2018, 01:23:40 PM »
I'm not going to hold myself up as a paragon of saving, especially around these parts, but we managed to do this despite not finishing school until 27, not receiving any windfalls, not making much more than the median HHI of the area before 35, and starting with a decent chunk of student debt from the wife (NW was about 3x HHI at 35).  DW's cumulative net income didn't exceed her student debt until she was 34, and my salary didn't exceed my inflation-adjusted starting salary until I was 34 as well due to the great recession.  Neither of us have been laid off, so we do have that going for us.

I've definitely heard enough millenials express the general attitude of "woe is me, things are so much harder now, look at house prices and pensions and stagnant wages and college debt and wah wah wah, so why even really try?  I want my travel, nice car, restaurants, and latte and those are small change compared to things like a house or retirement, which I'll never have."  This attitude has been expressed even by co-workers, whom I know are making six figures +/-. 

Sure, it's a metric that you can't measure everyone by.  However, most people with a college degree and an actual career should be able to manage it. 

Agreed on the multiple of salary as a metric being pretty flawed anyhow (I'm looking at you, Millionaire Next Door) - our HHI has increased substantially over the last four years.  Nevertheless, while not really increasing spending, our "Whatever Accumulator of Wealth" metric hasn't been increasing much despite our savings rate going up and up.  I suppose that now I'm expecting both of our salary increases to be leveling off, we'll be doing better (?).

MrMoogle

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #70 on: June 27, 2018, 01:36:30 PM »

We already have this. The US spends a significant portion of our GDP on social safety nets. Also, when you include Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, welfare, disability, unemployment, etc., the United States has the second lowest Gini coefficient among all developed nations, behind only France.



I'd like to see a source on this Gini coefficient.

I read that in the aforementioned Pinker book, which I just returned to the library two days ago, so I unfortunately can't look up the reference he used. This link says differently, so I'm not sure what source Pinker used.
I wonder if it only adjusted the US Gini based on government programs, but not other countries?

hoosier

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2018, 06:44:02 AM »
When I turned 35 two years ago I had somewhere between 3.5 to 4 times my salary saved. 

talltexan

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2018, 09:13:30 AM »
Not having access to the Pinker text, I did a quick web search for his GINI calculation, and I found this review (which I have not yet read): http://www.mdpi.com/2076-0760/6/4/147/pdf

I'll try to post again here when I feel I understand this enough to make an intelligent report. It's possible we've strayed from the topic far enough that a new topic post is needed.

Babybalrog

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2018, 09:41:03 AM »
concerning GINI coefficient. I remember this article about it from 2013. Which has the interesting point that you have to be careful about talking about the household ratio or the individual ratio. The family ratio has been getting worse (more unequal) since the 70's while the individual ratio has been stead since the 60's. I believe it was economist professor Mark Perry from the University of Michigan Flint, who concluded that this was because of self selection in marriage trends. College educated people tend to marry other college educated people, and two-earner households tend to out earn single income households. Since at one point prior to the 70s is was rare to see two high-income earners in one household that advent of that has lead to a natural change in the coeddicient

https://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-major-trends-in-us-income.html#.W0OAQtVKgdU



Back to the original topic. I've found it challenging to save twice my income because even though i save a ton, my income keeps going up to fast to keep my ratio high....

talltexan

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Re: Saving Twice your Salary by 35 break the internet!
« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2018, 12:47:31 PM »
I'm really glad you raised the issue of marriage (ten years ago I wrote a dissertation chapter on this): indeed assortative marriage has increased income inequality.

Of course, I can say that I want to live in a more equal society, but when my daughter brings home a hoodlum and tells me she wants to yoke her college-educated life to his un-worthy butt, of course I'll suddenly become fine with a higher GINI coefficient :-)

I don't know exactly how old you are, but one of the most thrilling things about the decade of the 20's is how quickly income increases. Here at MMM, people tend to focus on expenses--rather than income--as the most important denominator in these ratios, and this income increase shouldn't matter as much when judged thusly.