The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: PencilThinStash on May 05, 2016, 01:11:14 PM
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I got laid off from my job in Atlanta a few months ago due to a restructuring within the company, and decided to move back to the Chicago suburbs where I grew up. Found a job making less than I was making before, but enjoy the work more and see a lot of potential for growth in the future. Overall, pretty happy about how things played out.
My biggest issue right now comes from my roommate, who I'll call Jack. We've been friends for a long time, but obviously haven't spent a ton of time together over the last 8 years that I've been living in other states. Every time I'd come to visit, I'd be in "vacation mode" and spend pretty freely from the money I'd saved for that particular trip.
Now, I know that I've gotten a lot more frugal and mustachian over the last few years. So I warned Jack that I'm not very spendypants in my everyday life and that, as a natural saver, living with me was not going to look the same as partying with me on a weekend trip. His response of "I only go out on special occasions now, like when you come into town. I actually prefer staying in and drinking on the couch" eliminated most of my reservations, as did his talking about a savings account and that he spends very little to live well.
What I didn't realize is that our definitions of "spend little but still live well" are DRASTICALLY different things. While mine comes from a place of enjoying the simple things and avoiding hedonic adaptation, apparently his means "mooch off of fucking everybody."
I thought it was a little weird when we first moved in and he wanted to plan meals and do the grocery shopping together - most of my former roommates have, like me, been pretty independent and we each had our own stuff in the fridge. Not a big deal, though, I'm open to the idea. Hell, I'll even throw it all on whichever credit card I'm trying to travel hack right now to reach my minimum faster, and you can just pay me back for your half in cash.
Mistake number one.
Almost every time we've done this, it's been a multiple day struggle to get cash back from the guy. Additionally, I should mention that while I'm pretty average sized, Jack's got at least 60-70 pounds on me, and it's easy to tell why when you look at how much food each of us eats. I spend $50 on groceries, fight to get $25 out of him, and then only end up eating $15 worth of food.
If that was it, I'd suck it up and move on, but it seems like there's always some little thing. We drive somewhere in his car, he asks me for gas money. We drive somewhere in mine and I ask? "Come on, man, it's not like my SUV, your Civic gets such good gas mileage that it doesn't even matter that much."
Last week he got upset with me, because I haven't bought a grill yet for the apartment. Excuse me? I didn't realize that was an expectation. "Well, you said a few weeks ago that you really wanted one, and I think it would make our food bill a lot cheaper based on the foods we'd buy if we had one."
First off, NO, what I said is that I've never been a great griller (because I've never owned one), but I'm interested in getting better, and maybe I'll buy one once my savings rate is at an acceptable level again (Like I said earlier, I'm making a little less than I'm used to, so I want to keep expenses down).
Secondly, how would our food bill be cheaper? We're already buying the same foods that Jack says he wants to grill. "Ya, but I'm getting tired of eating foods that are prepared on the stove or in the oven when I know they would taste better on the grill." THEN BUY IT YOURSELF. I don't have any complaints about the food, so buying a grill is approximately item #487 on my list of priorities in life.
The real clincher was a few nights ago. We're having a discussion about budgets and why I didn't want to pull money from my retirement accounts to pay for other stupid things he wants me to buy, when he says:
"Dude, I don't get why you worry about this stuff. Just do what I do and surround yourself with people who will take care of you when the time comes."
WHAT. THE. FUCK.
I started thinking about some of the other people Jack has in his life, and it's a little strange how many of them are either well-off or look like they're headed that direction. Including another friend whose stepdad is supposedly about to close some business deal that will earn him "millions every week." In the month I've lived with Jack, he's already drunkenly convinced this friend to buy him two separate fridge-loads of groceries. Now, stepdad has told Jack that, because of the friendship Jack has with his stepson, he considers Jack to be part of the family. Since stepdad "always takes care of family," Jack's expecting to get some $100k check from him within the next year, and then be completely taken care of for the rest of his life.
Banking his entire future on the generosity of other people, while at 27 years old he splits his time between bartending once a week and working part-time at a movie theater.
I suddenly can't stop thinking that that's how he views me: Nothing but a walking dollar sign that he can get to cover his expenses someday. Should have listened to Financial Samurai and gone with that whole "Stealth Wealth" thing, I guess.
Sorry for the length, it's been eating at me for a couple days now and just had to get that off my chest.
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You need to find a new place to live, bro. Let someone else take care of this moocher.
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You need to find a new place to live, bro. Let someone else take care of this moocher.
Plus 1
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Holy shit. Holy fucking shit, dude. What The Fuck!!!
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Wow. This just provides more evidence of the virtues of stealth wealth.
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Run. Just run. Unfortunately you ARE a walking dollar sign to this guy and I doubt there is a way to change that at this point.
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If you like the guy then:
-Stop buying food together
-be serious about splitting carpooling money or don't carpool
-pretend like your poor or lost all your savings somehow or something
If not then:
-Move
If he still likes you even when he thinks you have no money then he's not trying to mooch off you
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Ha ha, thank you for writing that up, it was entertaining.
Man, trying to split groceries drove me nuts even when I had thrifty roommates. It was a lot easier to just learn how to cook for a singleton.
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First post-college roommate I had is an older guy (39 to my 24) and I kept wanting to try to cook meals together, he refused except saying that if there is something delicious and if I were willing to cook extra he would reiumburse me for the groceries. We never ended up doing so, but I do like that he was insistent on keeping things separate.
Now that I have a tenant, I'm looking forward to doing the same. It helps that my tenant was his, "What I bring in, I use, what you bring in you use," line in the sand belief. The only things we share in the kitchen are cooking utensils and dishware.
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Holy shit. Holy fucking shit, dude. What The Fuck!!!
+1000
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Man, maybe you should forget about the credit card points and just pay cash (for your part only) at the grocery store, while he does the same, since you're shopping together.
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Tell the mooching asshat that he needs to pay cash upfront for everything from now on. Groceries? Cash up front. Car ride? Cash up front.
He is taking advantage of your friendship, and from that last quote he knows *exactly* what he is doing. If appropriate, an ass-kicking might be necessary as well.
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I'd be leaving or kicking him out as soon as it's legally possible. He's a total asshat. Every single instance he's got a reason/excuse for, it's to his complete advantage. He is showing you very clearly that he doesn't give a single fuck about your relationship - only about himself. He's actually bragged to you about how he takes advantage of people that he is friends with. That is really screwed up.
But in the meantime, stand up for yourself man! If you don't want to be taken advantage of any more, then tell him NO and don't listen to his excuses.
I don't have to give you money cause you get better mileage, but you should give me gas money cause my car uses more gas!
No, that's not fair if you don't do the same when I drive. You drive yourself and I'll drive myself places from now on.
You pay for my groceries and I'll pay you back next week when I get my paycheck.
No. We're only buying for ourselves now. You need to do your own grocery shopping and pay for what you eat. And you had better not eat any of my food unless you come find me and pay me before eating it.
I can't afford X, can't you just pay for it and I'll pay you back?
No. I don't want to.
Honestly, I'd tell him exactly what you're feeling if you think there is any chance at all that he might actually listen to what you're saying - that he's told you that he only surrounds himself with friends he can mooch off of and take advantage of and you are seriously upset with him for seeing you and your friendship as only some sort of bank account he can hit up whenever. He's not been a very good friend at all, it's immature and irresponsible and it has damaged your friendship so severely that you don't think you want to be room mates any more and are not even sure if you want to remain friends, so at whatever date you can figure out, he needs to move out (or you move out if you're both on the lease - check in with your rental agreement to figure out how to get out of there without any issues).
Obviously do your research before having this discussion. Or just wait it out and tell him before you're leaving that is what you're doing and he's on his own and can either move out and find someplace to crash if he can't afford it on his own, or figure out some other sucker to move in and let him parasite off of.
And then lose this guy's number and block his ass unless he seriously changes and makes amends to you. Life is too short to put up with this type of BS.
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Total user. All good advice from FG.
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Do you ever watch nature shows?
Sometimes there will be a species of cuttlefish or something, the tiny dull-colored female will literally hang out under the protection of a big strong male. This male is biggest, baddest guy on the block, good specimen to mate with. Then another tiny dull-colored fish comes along. Score! Now the male has a modest harem going on. Except that's not a female, it's a stealthy male that quickly and quietly mates with the real female even while the big male stands guard. The female's happy; she gets to hedge her bets between having strong, dominant offspring and clever, stealthy offspring. Ultimately though it's the big male that has to do all the heavy lifting in protecting everyone.
Or another one was a species of snakes. They would hibernate in groups in the winter. When Spring came they would all wake up and frantically mate before going out into the world for next few seasons. As cold-blooded creatures, the males would always make sure they woke up first so they had enough time to sun and warm themselves up. The earlier they woke up, the more likely they'd be ready to be first to reach the waking females. When a female woke up she had a distinctive signature (scent, or sound, or pheromones, or something) and all the males would furiously swarm her. Sometimes though, these were actually faking males who had saved their energy sleeping longer and now the rubbing from the other males had warmed them up and they too were ready for the females.
It's almost like your roommate is like these other moochers in nature. It actually seems to take a decent amount of cleverness and specialized skills to successfully pull off his scams. I'm not excusing nor admiring his behavior but I can help but think people like him are always going to be around, it's simply how we've evolved as a species.
Frankly I hope you continue to live with him because these anecdotes are very entertaining. ;)
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Can't add anything more than what the others have said here but DTMFA (Gratuitous Dan Savage reference). Can you afford to move out and be on your own and leave him?
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Hey OP, welcome to Chicago! Is your roomie Catholic? Let's introduce him to my roommate. I'll be happy if someone else dealt with her not cleaning. :)
Seriously though, move out. And he really isn't your friend.
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Based on my experience with roommates, I'd say move out as quickly as possible. I have a roommate similar to yours I've tried to 'train' to be less of a mooch--has not worked and now on top of the mooching she's started to steal little things from me hoping I wouldn't notice (food, facial cleanser, shavers, etc). A week ago she begged for money so she'd have enough gas to get to her job the next day. I caved and gave her $20 and told her I needed the change back, and she spent the full $20 buying cigarettes on top of the gas. It's a tiny last straw, but there were a lot of straws before this. I'm telling her at the end of this month that she needs to be out by the end of June...
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First inclination is to give more chances, separate yourself from groceries and live singly in this arrangement, but reading all the other posts make me realize that I am a sucker and an enabler of this type of behavior. Thanks for sharing. The advice you've received will help me too.
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Whoa, reading that, I just got an earworm...
"I'm just a gigolo
everywhere I go
people know the part
I'm playing"....
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/david-lee-roth/just-a-gigolo.html (http://www.lyricsdepot.com/david-lee-roth/just-a-gigolo.html)
David Lee Roth..
Not exactly the same, but how long until he wears out his current friends, and then starts looking for new "friends"..? hmmm....
ETA: A new friend is having justified financial difficulties, (sudden loss of home and jobs) but instead of pulling herself up, or taking me up on my offer to help her help herself, thinks that "God will provide" and you don't have to do anything proactive yourself, other than pray.
When she asked me for food, asking for items like frozen chicken strips (the good ones) and other pricey prepacked items and treats for her toddler...(who does NOT need them)...saying that she was worried about not having anything to eat (family of 5).... well, maybe I am miserely, but I went home, and split out in half my bulk rice, bulk potatoes, bulk sweet potatoes, onions, added a couple lbs of on sale bought ground meat, peanut butter jar, all my remaining oats, and generous amount of flour and cooking oil and some spices.. bulk apples... then added an extra cabbage and carrots, a jar of home made jam, for variety, and drove back to give it to her right away.
End of her requests for food from me, anyways.. I know she has asked others in the month(s) since, but never me again.
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ETA: A new friend is having justified financial difficulties, (sudden loss of home and jobs) but instead of pulling herself up, or taking me up on my offer to help her help herself, thinks that "God will provide" and you don't have to do anything proactive yourself, other than pray.
When she asked me for food, asking for items like frozen chicken strips (the good ones) and other pricey prepacked items and treats for her toddler...(who does NOT need them)...saying that she was worried about not having anything to eat (family of 5).... well, maybe I am miserely, but I went home, and split out in half my bulk rice, bulk potatoes, bulk sweet potatoes, onions, added a couple lbs of on sale bought ground meat, peanut butter jar, all my remaining oats, and generous amount of flour and cooking oil and some spices.. bulk apples... then added an extra cabbage and carrots, a jar of home made jam, for variety, and drove back to give it to her right away.
End of her requests for food from me, anyways.. I know she has asked others in the month(s) since, but never me again.
Good for you for giving her real food.
You should tell her that God is not her personal genie. There's even a part in the Bible praising a woman who works and provides for her family. It's pretty obvious that we're supposed to put effort into solving our problems.
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You should definitely move out. The guy is going to be a constant drag, constant negativity. It might feel "little" at first but you'll be surprised how, over time, it will turn into the feeling of wearing a ball and chain. Plus then if he gets pissy about something you have to live with the guy. You can't escape it. I'd bail in a blue heartbeat. Life is too short for that stuff.
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You should definitely move out. The guy is going to be a constant drag, constant negativity. It might feel "little" at first but you'll be surprised how, over time, it will turn into the feeling of wearing a ball and chain. Plus then if he gets pissy about something you have to live with the guy. You can't escape it. I'd bail in a blue heartbeat. Life is too short for that stuff.
Over time, you become more like the people you associate with.
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I would just straight up hit him with the truth: " You're a mooch, man. Quit trying to get me to pay for everything for you."
No need to get mad at him or emotional, just be very blunt. Tell him he you don't like the situation and you aren't going to pay for anything for him again. And seriously mean it. If you go out to eat and he 'left his wallet" tough shit. If he is driving and he runs out of gas, walk home. Once the expectation is there that that shit is over with, he is either going to understand that it's not going to work with you, or he will freak out. In that case just get the hell out of there.
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This post has just assuaged my guilt over renting a one bed instead of sharing an apartment.
I think your friendship died when you moved in with crazy. I also think most people who make huge deals don't give 100k a year to their kid's lazy friend. But I eagerly await the outcome.
Kinda like how everyone knows I had nothing in common with my crazy ex roomie, but they are still asking for updates on her life a year later.
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As Iron Maiden once said........"run for the hills"
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You've got at least twenty good responses above.
Time to man up.
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I would just straight up hit him with the truth: " You're a mooch, man. Quit trying to get me to pay for everything for you."
No need to get mad at him or emotional, just be very blunt. Tell him he you don't like the situation and you aren't going to pay for anything for him again. And seriously mean it. If you go out to eat and he 'left his wallet" tough shit. If he is driving and he runs out of gas, walk home. Once the expectation is there that that shit is over with, he is either going to understand that it's not going to work with you, or he will freak out. In that case just get the hell out of there.
Man, even reading your post, I can tell you are the type that can pull this off and still remain friends. Me? I would try to say it and then it would be so awkward and emotional that I'd end up paying the guy just to stay friendly with me! Great skill to have and I envy those who have it. I wonder if it's the emotion part. If I can leave that at the door, maybe I could get better at these conversations.
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I would just straight up hit him with the truth: " You're a mooch, man. Quit trying to get me to pay for everything for you."
No need to get mad at him or emotional, just be very blunt. Tell him he you don't like the situation and you aren't going to pay for anything for him again. And seriously mean it. If you go out to eat and he 'left his wallet" tough shit. If he is driving and he runs out of gas, walk home. Once the expectation is there that that shit is over with, he is either going to understand that it's not going to work with you, or he will freak out. In that case just get the hell out of there.
Man, even reading your post, I can tell you are the type that can pull this off and still remain friends. Me? I would try to say it and then it would be so awkward and emotional that I'd end up paying the guy just to stay friendly with me! Great skill to have and I envy those who have it. I wonder if it's the emotion part. If I can leave that at the door, maybe I could get better at these conversations.
It's not the emotion part that's killing you, though. It's the fornication donation. Forget the money and incidentals, the major thing you should not be giving is ONE SINGLE FUCK about whether the moocher in your life experiences the consequences of his own bad decision making, or what his opinion of you might be. (ETA: I'm using the word "he" as a generic here; many moochers are female. I'm also discussing just one moocher, but if you have a swarm of them, my advice applies equally to all of them.)
Seriously. Cut it with the fuck-giving. You've allowed yourself to care more about his situation than he does, and that's messed up because it's sucking you into an sharknado of codependent bullshit. You're also allowing him to rewrite your boundaries and take shameless advantage of you. That's also crap. Worst of all, you've bought into the notion that this idiot's opinion matters somehow in the great scheme of things. Parasites are not people whose opinions matter. I mean, they do deserve the basic respect we give all human beings (as in, we don't load them into catapults and use them for skeet, and I don't use them to test the sharpness of my scythe), but you don't actually need to give them anything except a cordial "no".
If you were an utter asshole, you could abuse this guy without meaningful consequences. I get that you're not an asshole, and it's OK that you aren't, but that doesn't mean you have to be the blood supply to a 200-pound mosquito. It's not a binary problem. You can choose to be something else.
This guy has made it clear that he sees people like you as sources of nourishment, and now that he's gotten a few sucks in he's not going to want to let go of the titty. So expect a bit of a tantrum when you cut him off from using your resources. He might cry, or stomp off, or become pathetic, or act obnoxious. That's a survival instinct, to him: his source of sustenance is leaving, and his first reaction should be something that prevents it from escaping. Just recognize the tantrum for what it is: a test to see whether you're stupid enough to let him latch on again. This is not a test you want to pass.
Being called on the mooching, and cut off, is not actually new to the moocher. Nor will it hurt his feelings. He already doesn't give a fuck about you or your well-being, except to the extent that you're able to provide for him. He knows he's a human tapeworm, and he knows people don't like it because at his age he's been shat out a few times before by people who have just plain had enough. But he's committed to parasitism as a life strategy and he believes that it's right and appropriate for him specifically. This means he's never going to stop until that belief changes. You don't have the power to change that belief for him. He'll just do what every deer tick does, and go dormant until another host passes by. He's done it before. He'll do it again, and not lose a wink of sleep over how you feel.
You are going to want to pry the mooch loose, because the longer he stays the more thoroughly he becomes attached, the harder it will be to cut him loose, and the more he will extract from you in the meantime. Also, the universe assumes that people go after and keep the things that they like. If you let it go on long enough, other people will assume you're socially or financially fused somehow, or that you enjoy supporting an entourage. The longer you let this guy treat you like a giant mammary gland, the more the universe is going to notice: "hey! This person's big goal in life is to be a nipple. Let's send him more opportunities to exercise that aspect of his character."
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how many of them are either well-off or look like they're headed that direction. Including another friend whose stepdad is supposedly about to close some business deal that will earn him "millions every week." In the month I've lived with Jack, he's already drunkenly convinced this friend to buy him two separate fridge-loads of groceries. Now, stepdad has told Jack that, because of the friendship Jack has with his stepson, he considers Jack to be part of the family. Since stepdad "always takes care of family," Jack's expecting to get some $100k check from him within the next year, and then be completely taken care of for the rest of his life.
Jack is delusional. The Venn Diagram of people who make millions and people who give $100k to their kid's friend has negligible overlap.
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Definitely move out now.
Meanwhile, nobody obliges you to deal with this shit so just start buying stuff for yourself only.
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Cut it with the fuck-giving. You've allowed yourself to care more about his situation than he does ... allowing him to rewrite your boundaries and take shameless advantage....
...I get that you're not an asshole, and it's OK that you aren't, but that doesn't mean you have to be the blood supply to a 200-pound mosquito. It's not a binary problem....
...Just recognize the tantrum for what it is: a test to see whether you're stupid enough to let him latch on again. This is not a test you want to pass.
Being called on the mooching, and cut off, is not actually new to the moocher. ... He's done it before. He'll do it again, and not lose a wink of sleep over how you feel. ...
[Emphasis added.]
Aside from being a thing of beauty (A+ scathing hilarity) this was SO IMPORTANT. More of us need to hear this. THANK YOU.
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... and that's messed up because it's sucking you into an sharknado of codependent bullshit.
Quoted for brilliance.
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Cut it with the fuck-giving. You've allowed yourself to care more about his situation than he does ... allowing him to rewrite your boundaries and take shameless advantage....
...I get that you're not an asshole, and it's OK that you aren't, but that doesn't mean you have to be the blood supply to a 200-pound mosquito. It's not a binary problem....
...Just recognize the tantrum for what it is: a test to see whether you're stupid enough to let him latch on again. This is not a test you want to pass.
Being called on the mooching, and cut off, is not actually new to the moocher. ... He's done it before. He'll do it again, and not lose a wink of sleep over how you feel. ...
[Emphasis added.]
Aside from being a thing of beauty (A+ scathing hilarity) this was SO IMPORTANT. More of us need to hear this. THANK YOU.
Grimly squeaked and heartily agreed!
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fornication donation
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OP here - Thanks for the input, everyone. Highly entertaining with some great nuggets of wisdom thrown in (Looking at you in particular, GrimSqueaker).
Unfortunately, moving out isn't in the cards right now - I'm still in the process of building the emergency fund back up after those months of unemployment. On top of that, I like the apartment and it's all of 1.7 miles from work. Add in my hesitance to move my furniture down 3 flights of stairs again (Ok, that's purely my own laziness, but it's seriously a pain in the ass), and it's just not going to happen.
As for killing our friendship - If you remove the money aspect, we get along really well, and I do genuinely like Jack when he isn't mooching off me. I'm focusing on the negatives and my frustrations, not the good aspects of our friendship. This is the Wall of Shame and Comedy, after all.
Having said all that, I'm not going to let the guy walk all over me.
On Saturday, I was driving home from an event when Jack called me, asking if I wanted to go to the grocery store that afternoon. Perhaps it was a conversation that should have been done in person, but I've been avoiding it and saw my opening, so I said, "Look, man..." and laid it out. I tried to be nice about it, I didn't specifically call him out for being a mooch, but I was straightforward about the fact that I thought food-sharing was weird going in, that I gave it a shot but it wasn't working for me, and that I'd only be buying and cooking my own food from now on. He seemed confused and tried to argue about how well the system had been working, but I held firm.
So expect a bit of a tantrum when you cut him off from using your resources. He might cry, or stomp off, or become pathetic, or act obnoxious. That's a survival instinct, to him: his source of sustenance is leaving, and his first reaction should be something that prevents it from escaping. Just recognize the tantrum for what it is: a test to see whether you're stupid enough to let him latch on again. This is not a test you want to pass.
Woah, GrimSqueaker is psychic!
Since that discussion, Jack has basically refused to look at me or communicate in more than grunts. I'm attempting to be cordial, and he's probably said a total of 10 monosyllabic words to me in the last 3 days. When I'm around, he does nothing but sit there silently and glare at the tv. Obviously playing a waiting game.
What he doesn't realize is that once I draw a line, nobody (with the sole exception of my mom) can out-stubborn me. Good luck trying, kid.
Personally, I'm finding it really convenient to only cook and do the dishes for one person again. I didn't realize just how much of the work I was carrying until I stopped doing it, and I'm loving the freedom.
From the garbage littered around the kitchen and living room, though, it's obvious that Jack has yet to eat anything but frozen pizza, ice cream, and fast food since I stopped cooking for him.
No, wait, wait, wait... that was too harsh. He DID cook a box of Kraft mac & cheese for himself last night. Which he then finished off in a single sitting.
No wonder he's spent the last few weeks bragging to people about how healthy we've been eating. "You won't believe it, we're even having salads most nights!" I wasn't aware that rinsing and tearing lettuce was a complicated task, but apparently it's outside of his skill set?
Will keep you all updated if anything interesting develops from here.
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You are my gd hero grimsqueaker. That was a thing of beauty.
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On Saturday, I was driving home from an event when Jack called me, asking if I wanted to go to the grocery store that afternoon. Perhaps it was a conversation that should have been done in person, but I've been avoiding it and saw my opening, so I said, "Look, man..." and laid it out. I tried to be nice about it, I didn't specifically call him out for being a mooch, but I was straightforward about the fact that I thought food-sharing was weird going in, that I gave it a shot but it wasn't working for me, and that I'd only be buying and cooking my own food from now on. He seemed confused and tried to argue about how well the system had been working, but I held firm.
So expect a bit of a tantrum when you cut him off from using your resources. He might cry, or stomp off, or become pathetic, or act obnoxious. That's a survival instinct, to him: his source of sustenance is leaving, and his first reaction should be something that prevents it from escaping. Just recognize the tantrum for what it is: a test to see whether you're stupid enough to let him latch on again. This is not a test you want to pass.
Woah, GrimSqueaker is psychic!
Since that discussion, Jack has basically refused to look at me or communicate in more than grunts. I'm attempting to be cordial, and he's probably said a total of 10 monosyllabic words to me in the last 3 days. When I'm around, he does nothing but sit there silently and glare at the tv. Obviously playing a waiting game.
What he doesn't realize is that once I draw a line, nobody (with the sole exception of my mom) can out-stubborn me. Good luck trying, kid.
<snip>
Will keep you all updated if anything interesting develops from here.
(... in my best Antonio Banderas Puss-In-Boots voice)
Congratulations, my friend. You have escaped the sharknado of codependent bullshit because of your gigantic brass balls, your determination to withhold fucks from the unworthy, and your outstanding communication skills.
Your roommate will either come around as soon as he realizes his rent will be late, or else he will bail on the lease. Either way his mooching ways will no longer be your problem. Enjoy your newfound freedom. Pax vobiscum.
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^^^ OMG, major props to GrimSqueaker for the awesome advice and to the OP for how smoothly he's handling the situation. I am loving this latest development!
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^^^ OMG, major props to GrimSqueaker for the awesome advice and to the OP for how smoothly he's handling the situation. I am loving this latest development!
+1
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Seriously. Cut it with the fuck-giving. You've allowed yourself to care more about his situation than he does, and that's messed up because it's sucking you into an sharknado of codependent bullshit. You're also allowing him to rewrite your boundaries and take shameless advantage of you. That's also crap. Worst of all, you've bought into the notion that this idiot's opinion matters somehow in the great scheme of things. Parasites are not people whose opinions matter. I mean, they do deserve the basic respect we give all human beings (as in, we don't load them into catapults and use them for skeet, and I don't use them to test the sharpness of my scythe), but you don't actually need to give them anything except a cordial "no".
This guy has made it clear that he sees people like you as sources of nourishment, and now that he's gotten a few sucks in he's not going to want to let go of the titty. So expect a bit of a tantrum when you cut him off from using your resources. He might cry, or stomp off, or become pathetic, or act obnoxious. That's a survival instinct, to him: his source of sustenance is leaving, and his first reaction should be something that prevents it from escaping. Just recognize the tantrum for what it is: a test to see whether you're stupid enough to let him latch on again. This is not a test you want to pass.
THIS. All of this. Applies to so much, and so many situations.
When you stop giving a fuck, you somehow get more respect, universally. (Well unless you're a woman. Then there's a good 40% chance you'll get called a bitch. Don't give a fuck about THAT, either - what people mean by bitch is 'refuses to let me walk all over her' and, like, YUP, I'm owning that.)
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Seriously. Cut it with the fuck-giving. You've allowed yourself to care more about his situation than he does, and that's messed up because it's sucking you into an sharknado of codependent bullshit. You're also allowing him to rewrite your boundaries and take shameless advantage of you. That's also crap. Worst of all, you've bought into the notion that this idiot's opinion matters somehow in the great scheme of things. Parasites are not people whose opinions matter. I mean, they do deserve the basic respect we give all human beings (as in, we don't load them into catapults and use them for skeet, and I don't use them to test the sharpness of my scythe), but you don't actually need to give them anything except a cordial "no".
This guy has made it clear that he sees people like you as sources of nourishment, and now that he's gotten a few sucks in he's not going to want to let go of the titty. So expect a bit of a tantrum when you cut him off from using your resources. He might cry, or stomp off, or become pathetic, or act obnoxious. That's a survival instinct, to him: his source of sustenance is leaving, and his first reaction should be something that prevents it from escaping. Just recognize the tantrum for what it is: a test to see whether you're stupid enough to let him latch on again. This is not a test you want to pass.
THIS. All of this. Applies to so much, and so many situations.
When you stop giving a fuck, you somehow get more respect, universally. (Well unless you're a woman. Then there's a good 40% chance you'll get called a bitch. Don't give a fuck about THAT, either - what people mean by bitch is 'refuses to let me walk all over her' and, like, YUP, I'm owning that.)
The "bitch" comments are part of the standard punishment/tantrum that people throw when they realize you're not going to let them redraw your boundaries. It is indeed gender specific, but there's a male equivalent. The words people use when they're trying to control a man are "asshole" and "bastard". Women don't get called those things very often no matter what they do.
It's only after the tantrum behavior dies down that the respect occurs. That's if the tantrum-thrower sticks around. Often they don't, which is an equally acceptable situation since the average level of respect you get from the people around you is higher now that the tantrum-thrower isn't around to mess up the curve.
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I've dodged this bullet and seen friends go through the same thing as OP, glad to see hes drawing a line in the sand and giving his roomate notice that their friendship does not equal a free ride. Its soul crushing to deal with a mooching narcissistic manipulator every time you come home, wondering if you'll have to deal with their shit on the way into your room, and listening to the double standards they don't feel like following but call you out on at the slightest sign of non-compliance.
Dealing with a few days/weeks of unpleasant social interactions as you lay down the law is so much better than months of needless stress and financial burden.
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I just wanted to +1 for all the amazing GrimSqueaker quotes.
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fornication donation
Laminating this
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Hopefully this will be the conclusion to my ridiculous saga...
After my last post, I decided that I was getting bored with Jack's pouting, and that I was going to call him out when I got home from work if it was still going on. He wasn't home, though, so I forgot about it and went on with my evening.
A couple hours later I got a string of texts from Jack that, summarized, say, "I don't know if you noticed that I've been closed off the last couple days, we've got some other problems and the dinner thing really pushed me over the edge, but I'm tired of being pissed at you."
Awesome. Let's talk when you get home, dude. Points for acting like functional adults!
I am cynical enough, though, that in the back of my mind I'm viewing this as a change of tactics in Jack's attempt to "get back on the nipple."
So we sit down and clear the air a little. There were some other issues beyond the mooching, several were my fault (I'm not the easiest asshole to live with, either), just typical crap that strangers usually clarify when they move in together that friends tend to forget about. Nothing huge. We get on the same page for those, and then comes the discussion about food.
Jack: Every time I've had roommates, we've done it this way. It's easier for everyone.
PencilThinStash: It's not easier, though. When I cook alone, I do big batches and eat off that for 5 or 6 days. In 2 weeks, I'll only have to cook 3 times. With both of us eating off it, I'm cooking 3-4 times a week while you watch tv. As much as I love cooking, that's too much.
Jack: I cook too!
PTS: I spend, minimum, 30 minutes chopping, frying, monitoring things in the oven... you come in and heat a can of green beans on the stove for 5 minutes as a side dish. Not the same thing.
Jack: Well, I work so much in the evenings, I'm barely even around, so we're really only talking 2 nights a week that we have to share meals. How about I only eat off what you cook for those nights that I'm home, and you can use it for dinners and your work lunches?
After a few more minutes of various arguments and rebuttals, he finally backed off. "Well, dude, agree to disagree. I still think it's easier for both of us, but I know how stubborn you are. I'm done trying to win this one."
VICTORY!
Yesterday I got home from work, and everything is totally friendly, completely back to normal. I asked what he did with his day. "Not too much. Worked out, ran over to see my parents, went grocery shopping, blah blah blah"
Ran over to see your parents before the grocery shopping? Hm...
His mom is just about the sweetest, kindest person I've ever met in my life. In my opinion, she also provides WAY too much economic outpatient care to all of her kids. She and I have discussed finances before, and she always seems amazed that I save for retirement and am completely independent of my parents. She's confided that she and her husband are nowhere near where they should be with their own retirement planning - "We've run the numbers, and if something doesn't change, we won't be able to quit working until we're 130." I'm praying that she was exaggerating.
Did Jack go over to his parents' house and talk about how big, bad PencilThinStash is being mean and selfish and refusing to share? Probably. I mean, I've been bitching about the mooch to my parents (My sweetheart mom thinks we just need to develop a "chore chart" for who does the cooking, cleaning, etc. My dad? "If we were talking about a wife, I'd say you're being an idiot. He's only a roommate, though. He can take care of himself."). Now I'm curious if his mom felt bad for her baby and offered to buy him groceries...
So I go into the kitchen a few minutes later to see what's in the fridge and cupboards.
Holy hell.
A monstrous package of chicken thighs. Pork chops. A dozen frozen pizzas. Two half-gallons of ice cream. Hotdog buns (no hotdogs, weirdly enough?). Fully half the fridge full of bottled water and Pepsi cans. A stack of those frozen microwaveable meals. A FUCKING TEN POUND HAM. The list goes on.
I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but... there's at least $100 worth of shit in there. If he paid for it, I'll give $1000 to every member of this forum.
I started to get a little mad, until I had a semi-zen moment and realized... this is who he is. This is what he does. Some things just ARE.
Birds fly. Fish swim. The Dude abides. Jack mooches.
GrimSqueaker called it - The parasite jumped to another food source once he realized I wasn't an option anymore. No longer my problem, I don't have to care.
Later, Jack turns to me and says "Hey, we're out of booze, want to run to the liquor store with me tomorrow and split a handle of whiskey?"
SHIT. Here we go again.
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Hopefully this will be the conclusion to my ridiculous saga...
After my last post, I decided that I was getting bored with Jack's pouting, and that I was going to call him out when I got home from work if it was still going on. He wasn't home, though, so I forgot about it and went on with my evening.
A couple hours later I got a string of texts from Jack that, summarized, say, "I don't know if you noticed that I've been closed off the last couple days, we've got some other problems and the dinner thing really pushed me over the edge, but I'm tired of being pissed at you."
Awesome. Let's talk when you get home, dude. Points for acting like functional adults!
I am cynical enough, though, that in the back of my mind I'm viewing this as a change of tactics in Jack's attempt to "get back on the nipple."
So we sit down and clear the air a little. There were some other issues beyond the mooching, several were my fault (I'm not the easiest asshole to live with, either), just typical crap that strangers usually clarify when they move in together that friends tend to forget about. Nothing huge. We get on the same page for those, and then comes the discussion about food.
Jack: Every time I've had roommates, we've done it this way. It's easier for everyone.
PencilThinStash: It's not easier, though. When I cook alone, I do big batches and eat off that for 5 or 6 days. In 2 weeks, I'll only have to cook 3 times. With both of us eating off it, I'm cooking 3-4 times a week while you watch tv. As much as I love cooking, that's too much.
Jack: I cook too!
PTS: I spend, minimum, 30 minutes chopping, frying, monitoring things in the oven... you come in and heat a can of green beans on the stove for 5 minutes as a side dish. Not the same thing.
Jack: Well, I work so much in the evenings, I'm barely even around, so we're really only talking 2 nights a week that we have to share meals. How about I only eat off what you cook for those nights that I'm home, and you can use it for dinners and your work lunches?
After a few more minutes of various arguments and rebuttals, he finally backed off. "Well, dude, agree to disagree. I still think it's easier for both of us, but I know how stubborn you are. I'm done trying to win this one."
VICTORY!
Yesterday I got home from work, and everything is totally friendly, completely back to normal. I asked what he did with his day. "Not too much. Worked out, ran over to see my parents, went grocery shopping, blah blah blah"
Ran over to see your parents before the grocery shopping? Hm...
His mom is just about the sweetest, kindest person I've ever met in my life. In my opinion, she also provides WAY too much economic outpatient care to all of her kids. She and I have discussed finances before, and she always seems amazed that I save for retirement and am completely independent of my parents. She's confided that she and her husband are nowhere near where they should be with their own retirement planning - "We've run the numbers, and if something doesn't change, we won't be able to quit working until we're 130." I'm praying that she was exaggerating.
Did Jack go over to his parents' house and talk about how big, bad PencilThinStash is being mean and selfish and refusing to share? Probably. I mean, I've been bitching about the mooch to my parents (My sweetheart mom thinks we just need to develop a "chore chart" for who does the cooking, cleaning, etc. My dad? "If we were talking about a wife, I'd say you're being an idiot. He's only a roommate, though. He can take care of himself."). Now I'm curious if his mom felt bad for her baby and offered to buy him groceries...
So I go into the kitchen a few minutes later to see what's in the fridge and cupboards.
Holy hell.
A monstrous package of chicken thighs. Pork chops. A dozen frozen pizzas. Two half-gallons of ice cream. Hotdog buns (no hotdogs, weirdly enough?). Fully half the fridge full of bottled water and Pepsi cans. A stack of those frozen microwaveable meals. A FUCKING TEN POUND HAM. The list goes on.
I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but... there's at least $100 worth of shit in there. If he paid for it, I'll give $1000 to every member of this forum.
I started to get a little mad, until I had a semi-zen moment and realized... this is who he is. This is what he does. Some things just ARE.
Birds fly. Fish swim. The Dude abides. Jack mooches.
GrimSqueaker called it - The parasite jumped to another food source once he realized I wasn't an option anymore. No longer my problem, I don't have to care.
Later, Jack turns to me and says "Hey, we're out of booze, want to run to the liquor store with me tomorrow and split a handle of whiskey?"
SHIT. Here we go again.
Thanks for the update! 10/10 will read again.
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PencilThinStache: Excellent. You've just proven that you can assert your alpha status and be forgiven. Continue to do this at all times and you will enjoy a good and happy life without having to actually kill the people who piss you off.
If your goal is to maintain your happy household, your next step is not actually going to be a renewal of your struggle against moocherdom. You're going to take advantage of the fact that you are now alpha. This means you do what the ancient kings did, and reward your loyal retainer for his gesture of submission. But you do not do it in a way that suggests that mooching will be rewarded. This guy wants to get somewhat wasted at your expense. Now that you know what he wants, you can control him.
Go to the liquor store when you're damn well good and ready-- not necessarily today. Purchase some of the libation that YOU like to consume, in a quantity that makes sense. This will be a different kind of optimization exercise than your usual Mustachian instincts would suggest. You're not trying to try to save money by buying in bulk. Today, you will optimize on the scale that produces a happy life for you in the long run. So, come home with a mickey, preferably something you like.
With this mickey, you begin by pouring yourself a generous drink, the better to toast your success. You may treat your newly compliant beta roommate to a shot or even a double, which you will pour for him. But maintain control of the booze, and consume every drop yourself. Do this in front of him until the entire thing is finished. In this way, you share a small portion of your bounty, and you acknowledge the continuation of a social bond between the two of you. But you do it in a way that allows you to maintain control, and like the lion who feasts first upon the freshly killed wildebeest, you share only what you wish to share.
Under no circumstances do you perform any of this suggested "splitting" activity. That implies some kind of equal division, and the alpha does not share equally. Not if he wants to stay alpha. Nor do you allow him to touch the bottle. It's your bottle and you're making it clear that you're going to finish the whole thing and satisfy your needs without taking responsibility for satisfying his. (Which is why you're not going to come home with a magnum, unless you're feeling really ambitious: THERE MUST BE NO LEFTOVERS.) The entire point is that you're going to treat yourself.
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PencilThinStache: Excellent. You've just proven that you can assert your alpha status and be forgiven. Continue to do this at all times and you will enjoy a good and happy life without having to actually kill the people who piss you off.
If your goal is to maintain your happy household, your next step is not actually going to be a renewal of your struggle against moocherdom. You're going to take advantage of the fact that you are now alpha. This means you do what the ancient kings did, and reward your loyal retainer for his gesture of submission. But you do not do it in a way that suggests that mooching will be rewarded. This guy wants to get somewhat wasted at your expense. Now that you know what he wants, you can control him.
Go to the liquor store when you're damn well good and ready-- not necessarily today. Purchase some of the libation that YOU like to consume, in a quantity that makes sense. This will be a different kind of optimization exercise than your usual Mustachian instincts would suggest. You're not trying to try to save money by buying in bulk. Today, you will optimize on the scale that produces a happy life for you in the long run. So, come home with a mickey, preferably something you like.
With this mickey, you begin by pouring yourself a generous drink, the better to toast your success. You may treat your newly compliant beta roommate to a shot or even a double, which you will pour for him. But maintain control of the booze, and consume every drop yourself. Do this in front of him until the entire thing is finished. In this way, you share a small portion of your bounty, and you acknowledge the continuation of a social bond between the two of you. But you do it in a way that allows you to maintain control, and like the lion who feasts first upon the freshly killed wildebeest, you share only what you wish to share.
Under no circumstances do you perform any of this suggested "splitting" activity. That implies some kind of equal division, and the alpha does not share equally. Not if he wants to stay alpha. Nor do you allow him to touch the bottle. It's your bottle and you're making it clear that you're going to finish the whole thing and satisfy your needs without taking responsibility for satisfying his. (Which is why you're not going to come home with a magnum, unless you're feeling really ambitious: THERE MUST BE NO LEFTOVERS.) The entire point is that you're going to treat yourself.
You've dealt with that type of asshole before, haven't you. Because this is PERFECTION.
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PencilThinStache: Excellent. You've just proven that you can assert your alpha status and be forgiven. Continue to do this at all times and you will enjoy a good and happy life without having to actually kill the people who piss you off.
If your goal is to maintain your happy household, your next step is not actually going to be a renewal of your struggle against moocherdom. You're going to take advantage of the fact that you are now alpha. This means you do what the ancient kings did, and reward your loyal retainer for his gesture of submission. But you do not do it in a way that suggests that mooching will be rewarded. This guy wants to get somewhat wasted at your expense. Now that you know what he wants, you can control him.
Go to the liquor store when you're damn well good and ready-- not necessarily today. Purchase some of the libation that YOU like to consume, in a quantity that makes sense. This will be a different kind of optimization exercise than your usual Mustachian instincts would suggest. You're not trying to try to save money by buying in bulk. Today, you will optimize on the scale that produces a happy life for you in the long run. So, come home with a mickey, preferably something you like.
With this mickey, you begin by pouring yourself a generous drink, the better to toast your success. You may treat your newly compliant beta roommate to a shot or even a double, which you will pour for him. But maintain control of the booze, and consume every drop yourself. Do this in front of him until the entire thing is finished. In this way, you share a small portion of your bounty, and you acknowledge the continuation of a social bond between the two of you. But you do it in a way that allows you to maintain control, and like the lion who feasts first upon the freshly killed wildebeest, you share only what you wish to share.
Under no circumstances do you perform any of this suggested "splitting" activity. That implies some kind of equal division, and the alpha does not share equally. Not if he wants to stay alpha. Nor do you allow him to touch the bottle. It's your bottle and you're making it clear that you're going to finish the whole thing and satisfy your needs without taking responsibility for satisfying his. (Which is why you're not going to come home with a magnum, unless you're feeling really ambitious: THERE MUST BE NO LEFTOVERS.) The entire point is that you're going to treat yourself.
jesus!
and then you shall pee in a circle around the empty bottle, and drag your ass across the carpet!
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best thread on this forum
takes me back to my Misc. days...I'm almost convinced grimsqueaker frequents the Misc.
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PencilThinStache: Excellent. You've just proven that you can assert your alpha status and be forgiven. Continue to do this at all times and you will enjoy a good and happy life without having to actually kill the people who piss you off.
If your goal is to maintain your happy household, your next step is not actually going to be a renewal of your struggle against moocherdom. You're going to take advantage of the fact that you are now alpha. This means you do what the ancient kings did, and reward your loyal retainer for his gesture of submission. But you do not do it in a way that suggests that mooching will be rewarded. This guy wants to get somewhat wasted at your expense. Now that you know what he wants, you can control him.
Go to the liquor store when you're damn well good and ready-- not necessarily today. Purchase some of the libation that YOU like to consume, in a quantity that makes sense. This will be a different kind of optimization exercise than your usual Mustachian instincts would suggest. You're not trying to try to save money by buying in bulk. Today, you will optimize on the scale that produces a happy life for you in the long run. So, come home with a mickey, preferably something you like.
With this mickey, you begin by pouring yourself a generous drink, the better to toast your success. You may treat your newly compliant beta roommate to a shot or even a double, which you will pour for him. But maintain control of the booze, and consume every drop yourself. Do this in front of him until the entire thing is finished. In this way, you share a small portion of your bounty, and you acknowledge the continuation of a social bond between the two of you. But you do it in a way that allows you to maintain control, and like the lion who feasts first upon the freshly killed wildebeest, you share only what you wish to share.
Under no circumstances do you perform any of this suggested "splitting" activity. That implies some kind of equal division, and the alpha does not share equally. Not if he wants to stay alpha. Nor do you allow him to touch the bottle. It's your bottle and you're making it clear that you're going to finish the whole thing and satisfy your needs without taking responsibility for satisfying his. (Which is why you're not going to come home with a magnum, unless you're feeling really ambitious: THERE MUST BE NO LEFTOVERS.) The entire point is that you're going to treat yourself.
jesus!
and then you shall pee in a circle around the empty bottle, and drag your ass across the carpet!
GrimSqueaker, your comments on this thread are some of the funniest things I've read in a long time.
I'd offer to buy you a beer if we're ever in the same town, but I'm mildly terrified that vivophoenix is on to something here. You're not going to interpret that as some form of "beta submission" and pee on my carpet, are you?
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PencilThinStache: Excellent. You've just proven that you can assert your alpha status and be forgiven. Continue to do this at all times and you will enjoy a good and happy life without having to actually kill the people who piss you off.
If your goal is to maintain your happy household, your next step is not actually going to be a renewal of your struggle against moocherdom. You're going to take advantage of the fact that you are now alpha. This means you do what the ancient kings did, and reward your loyal retainer for his gesture of submission. But you do not do it in a way that suggests that mooching will be rewarded. This guy wants to get somewhat wasted at your expense. Now that you know what he wants, you can control him.
Go to the liquor store when you're damn well good and ready-- not necessarily today. Purchase some of the libation that YOU like to consume, in a quantity that makes sense. This will be a different kind of optimization exercise than your usual Mustachian instincts would suggest. You're not trying to try to save money by buying in bulk. Today, you will optimize on the scale that produces a happy life for you in the long run. So, come home with a mickey, preferably something you like.
With this mickey, you begin by pouring yourself a generous drink, the better to toast your success. You may treat your newly compliant beta roommate to a shot or even a double, which you will pour for him. But maintain control of the booze, and consume every drop yourself. Do this in front of him until the entire thing is finished. In this way, you share a small portion of your bounty, and you acknowledge the continuation of a social bond between the two of you. But you do it in a way that allows you to maintain control, and like the lion who feasts first upon the freshly killed wildebeest, you share only what you wish to share.
Under no circumstances do you perform any of this suggested "splitting" activity. That implies some kind of equal division, and the alpha does not share equally. Not if he wants to stay alpha. Nor do you allow him to touch the bottle. It's your bottle and you're making it clear that you're going to finish the whole thing and satisfy your needs without taking responsibility for satisfying his. (Which is why you're not going to come home with a magnum, unless you're feeling really ambitious: THERE MUST BE NO LEFTOVERS.) The entire point is that you're going to treat yourself.
You've dealt with that type of asshole before, haven't you. Because this is PERFECTION.
Of course. These are basics of tenant management and to a lesser extent household staff management. It's how you stay in control of your social subordinates while outnumbered and physically out-powered. You have to make a bunch of subtle (and not-so-subtle) power gestures in a way that they understand. It requires a different kind of social interaction than you would use with your peers, so a lot of people aren't comfortable doing it until they realize that the subordinates *need* this kind of gesture from them in order to be comfortable in their roles.
A moocher is a type of social subordinate. They have to be treated as such. They truly have no idea how to be social equals with someone because it's outside their comprehension. All they understand is "above" or "below", and if you let them be above you even as a social fiction (being "gentlemanly" or "generous" or whatever), you get stepped on. You need to put them below you, and keep them there. It's not just for your own social well-being. That's their comfort zone too. When they get outside their comfort zone, they start pushing boundaries because they truly don't know how to behave and are terrified someone will notice, so they push to find where the limits are. It doesn't mean you need to abuse them or make them feel bad. That's a common misconception.
That's why it would be a bad idea to continue to engage Jack as an equal by fighting him on the booze issue. PencilThinStache has just established himself as alpha. Given that he doesn't want to get rid of Jack completely and wishes to continue to enjoy the positive aspects of his company, PTS is better advised to use the booze as a tool to consolidate his alpha position and keep Jack in his place. This will allow PTS to move into the role of benevolent dictator and give on his terms while keeping the mooching to an absolute minimum. There will always be a small amount trickle of that, because as PTS noted, the Dude abides and Jack mooches.
Sharing an alcoholic beverage is not appropriate to all situations where you have a social subordinate, but this Jack fellow is a roommate and he's expressed it as something he wants to "split". So showing him how it's going to really work is acceptable provided it's done in a way that reinforces the alpha/beta structure.
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PencilThinStache: Excellent. You've just proven that you can assert your alpha status and be forgiven. Continue to do this at all times and you will enjoy a good and happy life without having to actually kill the people who piss you off.
If your goal is to maintain your happy household, your next step is not actually going to be a renewal of your struggle against moocherdom. You're going to take advantage of the fact that you are now alpha. This means you do what the ancient kings did, and reward your loyal retainer for his gesture of submission. But you do not do it in a way that suggests that mooching will be rewarded. This guy wants to get somewhat wasted at your expense. Now that you know what he wants, you can control him.
Go to the liquor store when you're damn well good and ready-- not necessarily today. Purchase some of the libation that YOU like to consume, in a quantity that makes sense. This will be a different kind of optimization exercise than your usual Mustachian instincts would suggest. You're not trying to try to save money by buying in bulk. Today, you will optimize on the scale that produces a happy life for you in the long run. So, come home with a mickey, preferably something you like.
With this mickey, you begin by pouring yourself a generous drink, the better to toast your success. You may treat your newly compliant beta roommate to a shot or even a double, which you will pour for him. But maintain control of the booze, and consume every drop yourself. Do this in front of him until the entire thing is finished. In this way, you share a small portion of your bounty, and you acknowledge the continuation of a social bond between the two of you. But you do it in a way that allows you to maintain control, and like the lion who feasts first upon the freshly killed wildebeest, you share only what you wish to share.
Under no circumstances do you perform any of this suggested "splitting" activity. That implies some kind of equal division, and the alpha does not share equally. Not if he wants to stay alpha. Nor do you allow him to touch the bottle. It's your bottle and you're making it clear that you're going to finish the whole thing and satisfy your needs without taking responsibility for satisfying his. (Which is why you're not going to come home with a magnum, unless you're feeling really ambitious: THERE MUST BE NO LEFTOVERS.) The entire point is that you're going to treat yourself.
jesus!
and then you shall pee in a circle around the empty bottle, and drag your ass across the carpet!
GrimSqueaker, your comments on this thread are some of the funniest things I've read in a long time.
I'd offer to buy you a beer if we're ever in the same town, but I'm mildly terrified that vivophoenix is on to something here. You're not going to interpret that as some form of "beta submission" and pee on my carpet, are you?
Certainly not. Rubber ducks urinate only when squeezed inappropriately, and my gratuitous use of the scythe rather deters that.
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PencilThinStache: Excellent. You've just proven that you can assert your alpha status and be forgiven. Continue to do this at all times and you will enjoy a good and happy life without having to actually kill the people who piss you off.
If your goal is to maintain your happy household, your next step is not actually going to be a renewal of your struggle against moocherdom. You're going to take advantage of the fact that you are now alpha. This means you do what the ancient kings did, and reward your loyal retainer for his gesture of submission. But you do not do it in a way that suggests that mooching will be rewarded. This guy wants to get somewhat wasted at your expense. Now that you know what he wants, you can control him.
Go to the liquor store when you're damn well good and ready-- not necessarily today. Purchase some of the libation that YOU like to consume, in a quantity that makes sense. This will be a different kind of optimization exercise than your usual Mustachian instincts would suggest. You're not trying to try to save money by buying in bulk. Today, you will optimize on the scale that produces a happy life for you in the long run. So, come home with a mickey, preferably something you like.
With this mickey, you begin by pouring yourself a generous drink, the better to toast your success. You may treat your newly compliant beta roommate to a shot or even a double, which you will pour for him. But maintain control of the booze, and consume every drop yourself. Do this in front of him until the entire thing is finished. In this way, you share a small portion of your bounty, and you acknowledge the continuation of a social bond between the two of you. But you do it in a way that allows you to maintain control, and like the lion who feasts first upon the freshly killed wildebeest, you share only what you wish to share.
Under no circumstances do you perform any of this suggested "splitting" activity. That implies some kind of equal division, and the alpha does not share equally. Not if he wants to stay alpha. Nor do you allow him to touch the bottle. It's your bottle and you're making it clear that you're going to finish the whole thing and satisfy your needs without taking responsibility for satisfying his. (Which is why you're not going to come home with a magnum, unless you're feeling really ambitious: THERE MUST BE NO LEFTOVERS.) The entire point is that you're going to treat yourself.
This is hilarious. I feel like I just watched a PBS documentary. I suggest rereading this in the voice of The Crocodile Hunter for added awesomeness.
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Between PencilStache and Grim Squeeker this is the most entertaining thread I've read on here in a long time... Seriously this shit is hilarious please keep us updated. I think you could turn this whole episode into a sitcom/movie hah ha!
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best thread on this forum
takes me back to my Misc. days...I'm almost convinced grimsqueaker frequents the Misc.
Former Misc member represent!
I think this forum is far healthier than the Misc :)
Stay strong OP!
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This thread is brilliant...
Grim, you should write a blog or so something.
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best thread on this forum
takes me back to my Misc. days...I'm almost convinced grimsqueaker frequents the Misc.
Former Misc member represent!
I think this forum is far healthier than the Misc :)
Stay strong OP!
would rep/10
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PencilThinStache: Excellent. You've just proven that you can assert your alpha status and be forgiven. Continue to do this at all times and you will enjoy a good and happy life without having to actually kill the people who piss you off.
If your goal is to maintain your happy household, your next step is not actually going to be a renewal of your struggle against moocherdom. You're going to take advantage of the fact that you are now alpha. This means you do what the ancient kings did, and reward your loyal retainer for his gesture of submission. But you do not do it in a way that suggests that mooching will be rewarded. This guy wants to get somewhat wasted at your expense. Now that you know what he wants, you can control him.
Go to the liquor store when you're damn well good and ready-- not necessarily today. Purchase some of the libation that YOU like to consume, in a quantity that makes sense. This will be a different kind of optimization exercise than your usual Mustachian instincts would suggest. You're not trying to try to save money by buying in bulk. Today, you will optimize on the scale that produces a happy life for you in the long run. So, come home with a mickey, preferably something you like.
With this mickey, you begin by pouring yourself a generous drink, the better to toast your success. You may treat your newly compliant beta roommate to a shot or even a double, which you will pour for him. But maintain control of the booze, and consume every drop yourself. Do this in front of him until the entire thing is finished. In this way, you share a small portion of your bounty, and you acknowledge the continuation of a social bond between the two of you. But you do it in a way that allows you to maintain control, and like the lion who feasts first upon the freshly killed wildebeest, you share only what you wish to share.
Under no circumstances do you perform any of this suggested "splitting" activity. That implies some kind of equal division, and the alpha does not share equally. Not if he wants to stay alpha. Nor do you allow him to touch the bottle. It's your bottle and you're making it clear that you're going to finish the whole thing and satisfy your needs without taking responsibility for satisfying his. (Which is why you're not going to come home with a magnum, unless you're feeling really ambitious: THERE MUST BE NO LEFTOVERS.) The entire point is that you're going to treat yourself.
This is hilarious. I feel like I just watched a PBS documentary. I suggest rereading this in the voice of The Crocodile Hunter for added awesomeness.
OMG, I didn't think anyone could pull the thread win away from TGS, but I think you just managed to do it. I'm crying because I'm laughing so hard.
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So it has been a whole week...any updates to share? I love this thread, having lived with several roommates who were each annoying in their own way. Two of them had tendencies similar to your friend's, though not as pronounced.
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Hey if mooching off you doesn't work, maybe your roommate can run for office? He seems perfect for it.
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So it has been a whole week...any updates to share?
A few little passive aggressive moments, but nothing particularly exciting yet.
The only big difference I've noticed is that he's spending a lot more evenings either at his parents' or other people's houses. He used to only do it once or twice a week, and always invited me along. You can tell that before, he viewed us as some sort of team/unit/?couple? type thing, so if he had a chance to mooch, he extended others' generosity to me. Now that I've set boundaries, he's stopped doing that.
As a natural introvert, I was getting a little worn out with how much time we spent around each other, so it's actually kind of nice to have the apartment to myself a few evenings a week and recharge my batteries.
I did have to laugh at one thing: He brought home some leftovers from his parents' the other day, and last night he threw some in the microwave while I was sitting down to eat my own dinner that I'd just cooked up. He walks into the living room, shows me his plate, and says:
Jack: Wow, doesn't this look amazing?
PencilThinStash: Yep, looks delicious.
Jack: And I didn't have to spend any prep time on it!
Hahaha cool, Jack. Good for you.
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Excellent thread.
I've come to the realization that Jack is basically like an old fashioned vampire. He'll charm you and suck you dry but you have to be the one to invite him in(to your mind). If you ask him to leave, he has no choice and can't come back in unless you let him. He may seem monstrous, but in truth, you're the one with all the power and he's the one with the pitiable limitations.
All these little passive-aggressive acts, not inviting you to his parents', eating his delicious meals in front of you, that's him tapping on the windows asking for another way in.
DON'T LET THE VAMPIRE IN!
The person I'm really concerned for is the capable but insecure woman he charms into marrying him. Oh they'll have good times and plenty of genuine love, but she'll basically be resigning herself as his mommy for the entirety of their marriage.
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Jack: And I didn't have to spend any prep time on it!
Not entirely true, he had to go to his parents, eat dinner there, carry the leftovers all the way back to his place, then heat them in the microwave. Sounds like a lot of prep time to me.
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Jack: And I didn't have to spend any prep time on it!
Not entirely true, he had to go to his parents, eat dinner there, carry the leftovers all the way back to his place, then heat them in the microwave. Sounds like a lot of prep time to me.
Or, from the other direction, it's exactly like meals 2-5 when you make a big batch meal for 6 meals. Only meal 1 takes prep; all the others are microwaved. Doubt that Jack will ever put this together though.
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Any updates on this one? We must not let this thread die!
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You're going to take advantage of the fact that you are now alpha. This means you do what the ancient kings did, and reward your loyal retainer for his gesture of submission.
I feel a wave of love and mirth at this moment. Lol
OP good luck. Hang in there, and feed us more stories...
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PencilThinStache: Excellent. You've just proven that you can assert your alpha status and be forgiven. Continue to do this at all times and you will enjoy a good and happy life without having to actually kill the people who piss you off.
If your goal is to maintain your happy household, your next step is not actually going to be a renewal of your struggle against moocherdom. You're going to take advantage of the fact that you are now alpha. This means you do what the ancient kings did, and reward your loyal retainer for his gesture of submission. But you do not do it in a way that suggests that mooching will be rewarded. This guy wants to get somewhat wasted at your expense. Now that you know what he wants, you can control him.
Go to the liquor store when you're damn well good and ready-- not necessarily today. Purchase some of the libation that YOU like to consume, in a quantity that makes sense. This will be a different kind of optimization exercise than your usual Mustachian instincts would suggest. You're not trying to try to save money by buying in bulk. Today, you will optimize on the scale that produces a happy life for you in the long run. So, come home with a mickey, preferably something you like.
With this mickey, you begin by pouring yourself a generous drink, the better to toast your success. You may treat your newly compliant beta roommate to a shot or even a double, which you will pour for him. But maintain control of the booze, and consume every drop yourself. Do this in front of him until the entire thing is finished. In this way, you share a small portion of your bounty, and you acknowledge the continuation of a social bond between the two of you. But you do it in a way that allows you to maintain control, and like the lion who feasts first upon the freshly killed wildebeest, you share only what you wish to share.
Under no circumstances do you perform any of this suggested "splitting" activity. That implies some kind of equal division, and the alpha does not share equally. Not if he wants to stay alpha. Nor do you allow him to touch the bottle. It's your bottle and you're making it clear that you're going to finish the whole thing and satisfy your needs without taking responsibility for satisfying his. (Which is why you're not going to come home with a magnum, unless you're feeling really ambitious: THERE MUST BE NO LEFTOVERS.) The entire point is that you're going to treat yourself.
bahahaha. I read this in the voice of Erlich Bachman from Silicon Valley...
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I love this. I think "Jack" could be my sister. Following because, car wreck, can't turn away.
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I love this. I think "Jack" could be my sister. Following because, car wreck, can't turn away.
I read this before it got epic, then forgot about it. Just found it again and now must follow.
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PencilThinStache: Excellent. You've just proven that you can assert your alpha status and be forgiven. Continue to do this at all times and you will enjoy a good and happy life without having to actually kill the people who piss you off.
If your goal is to maintain your happy household, your next step is not actually going to be a renewal of your struggle against moocherdom. You're going to take advantage of the fact that you are now alpha. This means you do what the ancient kings did, and reward your loyal retainer for his gesture of submission. But you do not do it in a way that suggests that mooching will be rewarded. This guy wants to get somewhat wasted at your expense. Now that you know what he wants, you can control him.
Go to the liquor store when you're damn well good and ready-- not necessarily today. Purchase some of the libation that YOU like to consume, in a quantity that makes sense. This will be a different kind of optimization exercise than your usual Mustachian instincts would suggest. You're not trying to try to save money by buying in bulk. Today, you will optimize on the scale that produces a happy life for you in the long run. So, come home with a mickey, preferably something you like.
With this mickey, you begin by pouring yourself a generous drink, the better to toast your success. You may treat your newly compliant beta roommate to a shot or even a double, which you will pour for him. But maintain control of the booze, and consume every drop yourself. Do this in front of him until the entire thing is finished. In this way, you share a small portion of your bounty, and you acknowledge the continuation of a social bond between the two of you. But you do it in a way that allows you to maintain control, and like the lion who feasts first upon the freshly killed wildebeest, you share only what you wish to share.
Under no circumstances do you perform any of this suggested "splitting" activity. That implies some kind of equal division, and the alpha does not share equally. Not if he wants to stay alpha. Nor do you allow him to touch the bottle. It's your bottle and you're making it clear that you're going to finish the whole thing and satisfy your needs without taking responsibility for satisfying his. (Which is why you're not going to come home with a magnum, unless you're feeling really ambitious: THERE MUST BE NO LEFTOVERS.) The entire point is that you're going to treat yourself.
bahahaha. I read this in the voice of Erlich Bachman from Silicon Valley...
Bachmanity!
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PTS and the GrimSqueaker could sell ad space on this thread and retire in about 3 months.
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This thread is brilliant...
Grim, you should write a blog or so something.
I actually have one devoted to renting out a single room in one's house. The site is fairly new so I'm still working out the layout and design, and there are only a few posts I've taken live.
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There are two types of gifts that are even worse to receive...
1. The same type of expensive but awkward / not useful gift, that immediate family bought for you using your own money. Look honey! I bought this fancy gizmo for you for your birthday, that you never wanted or knew existed, for $480. Why don't you thank me profusely now and for the next three months? (I would guess a car as a gift could fall into this category, too)
2. a Gift that is really for the giver to use. (think table saw for the person who never goes into the workshop).
Not sure where I would rate scented expensive MLM candles, purchased en mass for your DH, by your MIL from your SIL to support SIL's new "business", that you happen to be allergic to and obviously have not used any "scent enhancers" in your home for at least 9 years...
Anyway, I read the disgruntled rant for what it was, a way to get it out of the system so there would be no trace left in your real life...
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best thread on this forum
takes me back to my Misc. days...I'm almost convinced grimsqueaker frequents the Misc.
Former Misc member represent!
I think this forum is far healthier than the Misc :)
Stay strong OP!
I'm guessing Misc is the crown jewel of some forum from its heyday, like WoW's off-topic or 4chan's /b/?
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There are two types of gifts that are even worse to receive...
1. The same type of expensive but awkward / not useful gift, that immediate family bought for you using your own money. Look honey! I bought this fancy gizmo for you for your birthday, that you never wanted or knew existed, for $480. Why don't you thank me profusely now and for the next three months? (I would guess a car as a gift could fall into this category, too)
2. a Gift that is really for the giver to use. (think table saw for the person who never goes into the workshop).
Not sure where I would rate scented expensive MLM candles, purchased en mass for your DH, by your MIL from your SIL to support SIL's new "business", that you happen to be allergic to and obviously have not used any "scent enhancers" in your home for at least 9 years...
Anyway, I read the disgruntled rant for what it was, a way to get it out of the system so there would be no trace left in your real life...
I think you posted this on the wrong topic.
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Yeah. Posting from my phone this week and 75% don't post at all. I wonder where the others will show up. ?
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best thread on this forum
takes me back to my Misc. days...I'm almost convinced grimsqueaker frequents the Misc.
Former Misc member represent!
I think this forum is far healthier than the Misc :)
Stay strong OP!
I'm guessing Misc is the crown jewel of some forum from its heyday, like WoW's off-topic or 4chan's /b/?
somewhat, but not nearly as large. it is actually a sub-forum on the bodybuilding.com forums...name of the forum was literally "Misc."
just a bunch of 16-40 year old dudes with too much free time on their hands. some came for advice, most came for the lulz. A completely chauvinistic bunch, but always hilarious. topics could literally cover anything you could imagine and a lot of things you couldnt.
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best thread on this forum
takes me back to my Misc. days...I'm almost convinced grimsqueaker frequents the Misc.
Former Misc member represent!
I think this forum is far healthier than the Misc :)
Stay strong OP!
I'm guessing Misc is the crown jewel of some forum from its heyday, like WoW's off-topic or 4chan's /b/?
somewhat, but not nearly as large. it is actually a sub-forum on the bodybuilding.com forums...name of the forum was literally "Misc."
just a bunch of 16-40 year old dudes with too much free time on their hands. some came for advice, most came for the lulz. A completely chauvinistic bunch, but always hilarious. topics could literally cover anything you could imagine and a lot of things you couldnt.
Very similar experience for about 15 years of my life, but replace bodybuilding.com with guitar.com. The same group of miscers jumped ship to another forum when the original imploded, and cycled through about 10 new forums after that. The group evolved and gained new members over the years, and I eventually stopped going. They were still going as of 3-4 years ago though.
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Words to live by: Distance From Disorder. I wouldn't associate with anyone this dysfunctional. It's a lot of work, and they might do something else crazy (or worse) later. I'd try to be rid of this fool ASAP. I try to keep people like this out of my life.
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Oh my. I can relate from my share house days. Now I live with my permanent roommate (wife) things are much better and splitting everything makes sense. No way in hell I'd share anything more than basics like toilet paper or oil etc with housemates...even then...
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Oh my. I can relate from my share house days. Now I live with my permanent roommate (wife) things are much better and splitting everything makes sense. No way in hell I'd share anything more than basics like toilet paper or oil etc with housemates...even then...
Actually I had a pretty good experience splitting everything with housemates. It helped that we were all making a comfortable (and identical) amount of money. We took turns cooking and shopping , and after a while learned to accept expensive food buys as the price of harmony.
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Eek. Maybe I was the shit housemate?
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Oh my. I can relate from my share house days. Now I live with my permanent roommate (wife) things are much better and splitting everything makes sense. No way in hell I'd share anything more than basics like toilet paper or oil etc with housemates...even then...
Before I got married, my roommates and I always split everything evenly. It worked out well since all of us were very similarly minded on everything.
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Oh my. I can relate from my share house days. Now I live with my permanent roommate (wife) things are much better and splitting everything makes sense. No way in hell I'd share anything more than basics like toilet paper or oil etc with housemates...even then...
Before I got married, my roommates and I always split everything evenly. It worked out well since all of us were very similarly minded on everything.
I've done both and it has worked out. When I haven't, it was that we were on completely different tracks. We could still be on friendly terms and have good times together, but... there had to be terms. Most of the time I have shared costs evenly with roommates and traveling companions and that was a much better experience, but probably not because of the system. I think it was more because it was a telling sign that we had a similar mindset and that there was a certain level of trust already present.
I would not trust the OP's roommate as far as I can thrown him, and I'm very weak.
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Oh my. I can relate from my share house days. Now I live with my permanent roommate (wife) things are much better and splitting everything makes sense. No way in hell I'd share anything more than basics like toilet paper or oil etc with housemates...even then...
Before I got married, my roommates and I always split everything evenly. It worked out well since all of us were very similarly minded on everything.
I've done both and it has worked out. When I haven't, it was that we were on completely different tracks. We could still be on friendly terms and have good times together, but... there had to be terms. Most of the time I have shared costs evenly with roommates and traveling companions and that was a much better experience, but probably not because of the system. I think it was more because it was a telling sign that we had a similar mindset and that there was a certain level of trust already present.
I would not trust the OP's roommate as far as I can thrown him, and I'm very weak.
I have my first ever tenant currently, he's been living here for about 2 months. He's an older guy (57), but is quiet, clean, though a little demanding on some things, but very reasonable when he is. When we first starting talking and realized that we could stand each other (he was a tenant of a friend of mine's boyfriend's friend), he was very insistent that the only things of mine he ever wants to share are utensils and silverware/pots/ect. I didn't quite get the point, but I really like it. It leaves no gray area. I think it's good to have such boundaries.
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(he was a tenant of a friend of mine's boyfriend's friend)
Haha! You can say 'friend of a friend', and we won't have trust issues over it.
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(he was a tenant of a friend of mine's boyfriend's friend)
Which one of them knows Kevin Bacon?
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(he was a tenant of a friend of mine's boyfriend's friend)
Haha! You can say 'friend of a friend', and we won't have trust issues over it.
It's more fun my way.
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Oh, boy. I was really hoping that I was done posting in this thread.
So everything had been going fine for a few weeks. I mentioned in my last post that Jack was making a few little passive aggressive comments, but nothing serious and overall it was making me chuckle. Life was good.
Until my birthday weekend, when my parents came to town.
Little bit of background info – I’m the independent kid. My siblings live within 20 minutes of my parents, while I live roughly 9 hours away. My parents are pretty well off and EXTREMELY generous to begin with. Since I’m not around as much as my siblings, they tend to go a little, well… overboard on spoiling me, when we do see each other.
In addition to my parents, my little sister and several cousins also came in. We’re all really close, so I offered to put everybody up at the apartment for the weekend. Knowing this would be an inconvenience, I’d run it by Jack a month in advance. Then invited him along to all the family lunches/dinners out of common courtesy. He got along well with the group, everybody had a blast.
The problem started after everybody left on Sunday afternoon. You see, between 7 people’s worth of leftovers from a full weekend of eating out, and a couple pounds of beef brisket my parents had catered for the ~50 people we had at the party on Saturday night (I told you, they go overboard)… My fridge is now PACKED with more food than I can possibly eat before it goes bad. On top of that, we also had way too much beer left over. A few different brands, including a couple that I’m not crazy about (Coors Light is water, IPA’s are too hoppy for my taste, etc).
I made people take food home with them. I let the guy whose house we used keep a full case of beer and more than half the brisket… but I still came home with too much. So here I am, with an overstuffed fridge and a cooler full of beer, coming down from the mental high of a great weekend. And I figure – what the hell. I don’t want any food to go to waste, and I’m never going to drink some of this beer. I tell Jack to have at it.
If you’re smarter than I am, you already see where this is going.
We ate like kings for a week, and somehow managed to finish everything off. Nothing wasted, nothing thrown away. Awesome.
Except, to use our running analogy, Jack now thinks he’s back on the nipple.
MOTHERFUCKER, I’M A DUMBASS.
I started to realize it halfway through the week, when I was opening the presents that some particularly generous friends had gotten me. It’s pretty well-known that I’m a bourbon/scotch drinker, and I received a few bottles that are a step or two above what I normally buy myself. Nice enough to label “sit back and slowly enjoy” liquor, not “pound it fast for a wild night” liquor. As I’m opening them, Jack walks into the living room and says “Damn, looks like we don’t need to buy booze for a while, we’re gonna drink good!” Because, being a mooch, someone else’s good fortune naturally translates as his own. I’m all for sharing a drink here and there, hell, we had people over a few nights ago and I opened the private stash to start everybody off with a nice drink. I’m not trying to be a selfish prick, but damn it, don’t act like you have an equal right to my shit.
I’ve reset the boundaries since then, but I kind of feel like I’m back at the beginning of the battle. What the hell.
It’s hit me over the last week that there’s more to my issue with Jack than him just being a mooch. It’s that he runs his entire life based on what feels good at the moment. No comprehension of delayed gratification or long term consequences, it’s 100% “what feels good NOW.” The more I think about it, the more I can’t help but realize he’s a child.
I suppose that explains why he’s so much fun to hang out with, and simultaneously miserable to live with.
His dishes were piling up in the sink for a week or so. When we walked in the other day, the apartment had a very obvious stench coming from the kitchen. He starts complaining, I say “Hey, they’re your dishes.” He walks over, digs around, finds ONE bowl that he thinks is the source of the smell, washes THAT ONE BOWL, lights a candle to mask the stink, then goes back into the living room to play video games like everything’s taken care of.
A few days later, I’m washing some of my own dishes (we don’t have a dishwasher) when he comes over and goes “Oh, are we knocking these all out right now? About time!” and starts towel drying what I’d set on the counter to air-dry. So I finish washing mine and start to walk away. “Hey, PencilThinStash, what about all of these?” “Jack, those are yours. I’ll towel dry, but it’s not my job to clean them.”
To his credit, he did most of them at that point, but you could tell he was peeved that I hadn’t just taken care of it myself.
What’s really getting under my skin right now, though?
Before I got this job, before we moved in together, Jack had called me up because he’d just started with a temp agency in the area. He knew I was looking, and had even talked with other temp agencies, but wasn’t having any luck. He recommended the one he was using, so I walked in the next day to talk to them. Got a call from the agency a few days later asking if I’d like to interview with the company I’m working for now. Said yes, quickly set up the interview. Was talking to him a few days later and realized that he’d gotten a call to interview at the same place, but Jack let it go to voicemail and didn’t schedule anything. By the time he got around to calling the agency back, the company had already given me the job.
In Jack’s eyes, this means “I’m the one who got you the job” and “If it wasn’t for you, I’d be the one working there right now.”
On one hand, he’s right. I wouldn’t have my job right now if he hadn’t told me about the temp agency in the first place. I’m grateful he did.
But implying my work ethic and skill set had nothing to do with the fact that the company loved me and decided to bring me on full time? The fact that I actually answered the phone call and scheduled an interview immediately, while he took a week to call them back – That doesn’t play into it at all? Nope. The only thing that matters is that he told me about a temp agency, and stole the job from him.
Someone at work quit recently, and in Jack’s eyes, the way I can “pay him back” is getting him that open job. To be honest, he has the skill set for it. It’s what his degree is in. If I trusted his work ethic, I’d be happy to do it. If I didn’t think he was a child, I’d be recommending him to my boss right this moment. However, the reason he got fired from his last serious job is that he was warned multiple times to stop being lazy, stop coming in late, stop socializing all the time, and actually do work. He calls it a layoff, but if you’re the only person they let go, and it’s because you never worked, that’s a fucking firing.
If I’m going to put my reputation on the line vouching for somebody, I need to know they're not going to drag it through the mud.
He won’t stop bugging me about it, though. “Dude, think how much fun it would be to work together! We’d be running that place within a year!”
Am I being an ungrateful, selfish asshole here? Or am I just so far into crazy that I can't even tell anymore? Holy hell, I’m just… done.
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Be done.
Holy hell, whatever you do, do NOT recommend him for a job - that's your reputation on the line too.
And consider moving. Saving money is all well and good, but man.mas a second-hand story he's entertaining, but I wouldn't sign up to live with him!
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I agree with Kitsune (and you) that you should not recommend him for the job at your company. My ex- did that for a friend when we were both about your age, and he got seriously burned by his immature flaky friend acting exactly the way it sounds like Jack would act. His friend didn't even last for 3 months in that job. Then, after that everyone was questioning my ex's judgement. The sad thing is that, like you, he already knew his friend had serious work ethic and maturity issues, but he went against his better judgement. It didn't help their friendship at all.
On the one hand, I've helped plenty of friends get jobs and this has created a circle of mutual benefit during our careers. On the other had, I have unfortunately also been in the situation where I've had to tell bosses and coworkers "he is my friend from school/church/sports/whatever, but I have doubts about hiring this person and here's why" when I've known applicants. It sucks, but if someone will make a shitty employee, then you really have no other choice.
Can you just tell him you have no sway in the hiring decision?
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in real life you definitely should not recommend him for the job. lie to him if necessary. who cares at this point. not sure if you should move out or not...when he isn't being a mooch he seems tolerable.
in internet land i never want you and jack to separate and i want you all to work together forever just so i can selfishly be entertained. i love this thread.
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I agree with Kitsune (and you) that you should not recommend him for the job at your company. My ex- did that for a friend when we were both about your age, and he got seriously burned by his immature flaky friend acting exactly the way it sounds like Jack would act. His friend didn't even last for 3 months in that job. Then, after that everyone was questioning my ex's judgement. The sad thing is that, like you, he already knew his friend had serious work ethic and maturity issues, but he went against his better judgement. It didn't help their friendship at all.
On the one hand, I've helped plenty of friends get jobs and this has created a circle of mutual benefit during our careers. On the other had, I have unfortunately also been in the situation where I've had to tell bosses and coworkers "he is my friend from school/church/sports/whatever, but I have doubts about hiring this person and here's why" when I've known applicants. It sucks, but if someone will make a shitty employee, then you really have no other choice.
Can you just tell him you have no sway in the hiring decision?
I'm all for recommending people that I believe in. I've been on the receiving end of that benefit when friends have recommended me to their bosses in the past, and it's only fair that I do the same for others. Karma and whatnot (even if I don't actually believe in karma).
Thankfully, I have a minor reprieve for the moment - I work for a tiny, family-owned company with ~15 employees, and the owner is the only one with hiring power. He's out of town for the next month or so, leaving nobody in the office who Jack could really give a resume to. I've told him this, and he keeps saying "Ya, I understand that, but I still want to stop in and hand it to somebody." We don't have an official HR department, the most anybody could do would be to sit on it for a couple weeks until the owner gets back. Technically, there isn't even a position open yet, just a vague "I'll get around to it when I get back" vibe. There's literally nothing I could do to help Jack right now, even if I wanted to.
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in real life you definitely should not recommend him for the job. lie to him if necessary. who cares at this point. not sure if you should move out or not...when he isn't being a mooch he seems tolerable.
in internet land i never want you and jack to separate and i want you all to work together forever just so i can selfishly be entertained. i love this thread.
I think the whole "being a child" thing is part of his charm. The rest of us all have real jobs and responsibilities, he's a fun breath of fresh air for people living in regular grown-up world. He's like Hank Moody in Californication - A blast to hang out with, but living with the guy or expecting anything out of him is a mistake.
Damn, come to think of it, that's actually a perfect comparison. I should have been more patient and used "Hank" for his pseudonym.
Hahaha I'm glad y'all are getting some enjoyment out of my stress, though.
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As someone who has made the colossal mistake of recommending an acquaintance, heed my words: FUCK. NO.
I might be slightly biased because this acquaintance stole from the company and is still suing two years down the line (with no basis by the way - every claim has failed so far). Boy do I feel like a dumbass...
Also waiting for the Grim Squeaker to reply to your post.
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I will point out that nothing keeps you from the response of "I've mentioned you to [boss], but I have no control over hiring." Heck, it can even be true. Nothing about that statement means that you actually recommend him, and you can legitimately tell [boss], "Yea, there's a guy I know who would love to work here, but I wouldn't recommend him."
Theoretically you could get bonus points from both sides- the roomie gets told that he was mentioned, and the [boss] knows that you have the best for the company in mind.
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What's the situation with your lease? Are you both on it? Could you afford the payment and/or quickly line up another roommate if he were to move out? If so, then I would have a conversation with him something along these lines:
1) I am not going to recommend you for the job, because given your past track record (getting fired for not working) and what I have observed while we have been sharing housing, I am worried that you will underperform and I don't want my professional reputation tied to you in any way. You are welcome to apply if you want, but I won't be able to help you in any way -- it is up to you to land the job and do your best to keep it.
2) After several weeks/months of sharing housing, I have come to the conclusion that it isn't working for me to be roommates with you. We can still be friends, but I don't want to live with you. I'm willing to [pay your moving costs/cover your share of the rent for the next x weeks/give you $x00 in cash -- choose an option you can afford/think is reasonable and that you think he will take] if you move out by July 15th. I will contact the landlord about signing a new lease to get your name off the current one.
I think if you can offer the right incentive, he will probably move out. Assuming he can find someone stupid enough to let him move in with them. Be prepared for him badmouthing/complaining about you to your mutual friends for awhile, though. Still, that is probably less stressful than putting up with living with him for the rest of your lease term.
We're both on it. 10 months left. I could afford the rent by myself IF I cut my savings rate to about 2%. Though I suppose I'd free up a few dollars in the budget from cancelling our disgustingly extravagant $120/month cable bill (Aside from Netflix, I hardly ever watch tv, why am I paying for half of this nonsense?).
Not a step I'm willing to take quite yet, but time will tell...
Also waiting for the Grim Squeaker to reply to your post.
Honestly, 50% of the reason I posted was to get GrimSqueaker's take on the situation. I do like the rest of you, but I'm practically drooling in anticipation for that goldmine of a response.
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When your reprieve is over, I'd hand over Jack's resume and say, "I hear looking for someone to fill a position. I think this guy has the right skill set for the job."
"Oh really? You think he's a good fit?"
"Well I like him as a friend though I've never worked with him in a professional capacity, so I can't speak to that."
"Look, I don't want to waste my time here. Would you hire him if you were me?"
"Well I think the work he'd produce would be good, but I may have to employ a stricter managerial style to get those results. Assuming I have that power and energy as a boss, yes, I would hire him."
"Are you telling me I'd have to micromanage this guy? I don't have time for that."
"Honestly it's all speculation on my part. But I do know that when we had personal problems and sat down to talk about it, things got better on both ends. But hey, he's my friend and I can't help but be biased. I'm sure your the one who can best determine who's a good fit."
Praise his good points, don't out lie, and stick to vague "I've never worked with him professionally" responses when pressed for a sad truth. You could repeat the conversion verboten to Jack and have a clear conscience.
An empathetic person will pick up that you're being a good friend but aren't quite crazy about the guy. That will prompt them to dig a little deeper and decide to go for it anyway or pass but ultimately it has nothing to do with you.
If he does get the job, for the love of all that is holy, move out. Do you really want to work with the guy all day long and then go home with him and spend all evening together? I don't even want to do that with my husband, and we get along.
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Two posts from Ask A Manager -- one that may help you with your current dilemma, and one that should give you solace about the past:
http://www.askamanager.org/2011/04/my-friend-is-applying-for-my-job-and-i-dont-want-to-recommend-her.html
http://www.askamanager.org/2012/07/my-friend-hates-me-for-stealing-her-job.html
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Here's what you have to do.
First, take Jack's resume, give it to whoever is in charge while the boss is away, admit that you're doing it as a favor to your roommate, and tell the truth about why you don't think he'd be a good hire. There's no reason to beat around the bush unless you want to look like someone who's easily manipulated.
Second, start treating each bottle your good booze like a girlfriend.
Suppose, for whatever reason, you had several attractive, intelligent, fit, Mustachian women who were into booty calls, and who wanted to hang out with you in a consensual, polyamorous, non-jealous way. You wouldn't even have to pay for dinner: all they want is to be loved and appreciated, and to enjoy the time they spend with you. So here you are with a short-term girlfriend, or two, or five, or however many bottles of good booze you have. Each is unique. Each is different. How would you deal with this situation?
What you're not going to do, is share. If a gorgeous woman was in lust with you, would you really set Jack up with her instead? No. You are a gentleman. So show some respect.
Acknowledge your girlfriends, invite them to your parties, and encourage them to socialize with your friends and family. Set aside intimate time with each of them one-on-one, and perhaps have a couple of three-ways if you really want to get your lips wet. But keep them from crossing Jack's path.
Jack knows your girlfriends exist, and he's clamoring to be set up with them because in his mind you've got more poon than you really need or can service. Yet that would be a waste of a sensitive, caring partner. So unless you've got some kind of masochistic cuckold fetish, fob Jack off with the alcoholic equivalent of the fugly wingwoman: the IPA perhaps, or the light beer. You've already made him a gift of it. Remind him of that.
In this way, you preserve your alpha status. Leave him only the leavings from your wildebeest kill, and make sure you take all the best bits for yourself.
O' the dishes... you're giving a fuck again. Either that, or your fucks simply like to weasel out of confinement and go yipping and baying after things that don't matter, like a poorly trained dog chasing a car. Find a way to contain this wayward fuck, and if you see it start to do the car chasing thing, kick it in the ribs. Then, it will momentarily become a flying fuck, but at least it will not be given.
Do your dishes, ignore Jack's, and if the stench is too terrible or it's attracting vermin, say so.
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Also waiting for the Grim Squeaker to reply to your post.
Honestly, 50% of the reason I posted was to get GrimSqueaker's take on the situation. I do like the rest of you, but I'm practically drooling in anticipation for that goldmine of a response.
Here's what you have to do.
OMG, the Grim Squeaker delivers masterfully again!
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Suppose, for whatever reason, you had several attractive, intelligent, fit, Mustachian women who were into booty calls, and who wanted to hang out with you in a consensual, polyamorous, non-jealous way. You wouldn't even have to pay for dinner: all they want is to be loved and appreciated, and to enjoy the time they spend with you. So here you are with a short-term girlfriend, or two, or five, or however many bottles of good booze you have. Each is unique. Each is different. How would you deal with this situation?
Acknowledge your girlfriends, invite them to your parties, and encourage them to socialize with your friends and family. Set aside intimate time with each of them one-on-one, and perhaps have a couple of three-ways if you really want to get your lips wet. But keep them from crossing Jack's path.
Dear Penthouse - LMAO. Well done.
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You folks are starting to give me performance anxiety.
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Here's what you have to do.
First, take Jack's resume, give it to whoever is in charge while the boss is away, admit that you're doing it as a favor to your roommate, and tell the truth about why you don't think he'd be a good hire. There's no reason to beat around the bush unless you want to look like someone who's easily manipulated.
Second, start treating each bottle your good booze like a girlfriend.
Suppose, for whatever reason, you had several attractive, intelligent, fit, Mustachian women who were into booty calls, and who wanted to hang out with you in a consensual, polyamorous, non-jealous way. You wouldn't even have to pay for dinner: all they want is to be loved and appreciated, and to enjoy the time they spend with you. So here you are with a short-term girlfriend, or two, or five, or however many bottles of good booze you have. Each is unique. Each is different. How would you deal with this situation?
What you're not going to do, is share. If a gorgeous woman was in lust with you, would you really set Jack up with her instead? No. You are a gentleman. So show some respect.
Acknowledge your girlfriends, invite them to your parties, and encourage them to socialize with your friends and family. Set aside intimate time with each of them one-on-one, and perhaps have a couple of three-ways if you really want to get your lips wet. But keep them from crossing Jack's path.
Jack knows your girlfriends exist, and he's clamoring to be set up with them because in his mind you've got more poon than you really need or can service. Yet that would be a waste of a sensitive, caring partner. So unless you've got some kind of masochistic cuckold fetish, fob Jack off with the alcoholic equivalent of the fugly wingwoman: the IPA perhaps, or the light beer. You've already made him a gift of it. Remind him of that.
In this way, you preserve your alpha status. Leave him only the leavings from your wildebeest kill, and make sure you take all the best bits for yourself.
O' the dishes... you're giving a fuck again. Either that, or your fucks simply like to weasel out of confinement and go yipping and baying after things that don't matter, like a poorly trained dog chasing a car. Find a way to contain this wayward fuck, and if you see it start to do the car chasing thing, kick it in the ribs. Then, it will momentarily become a flying fuck, but at least it will not be given.
Do your dishes, ignore Jack's, and if the stench is too terrible or it's attracting vermin, say so.
If you are ever in rural Quebec and in need of a drink, I will happily provide, on the strength of this tread alone.
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Hahaha sorry about that, GrimSqueaker. Great response, as always. Particularly the part about how to turn my escaped fucks into flying fucks.
LeRainDrop, thanks for the links. Solid advice.
Suppose, for whatever reason, you had several attractive, intelligent, fit, Mustachian women who were into booty calls, and who wanted to hang out with you in a consensual, polyamorous, non-jealous way.
Thanks for putting that picture in my mind, by the way. Damn it, now I'm tempted to go create a thread in Mustachian and Single...
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A personal favorite of mine:
"On the Lighter Side:
A Lexicon of Inconspicuously Ambiguous Recommendations
by Robert J. Thornton
Letters of recommendation are becoming increasingly unreliable as a means of evaluating candidates for employment. The chief reason is that the contents are no longer strictly confidential. In all but the rarest of cases a letter is apt to be favorable, even when the writer knows the candidate is mediocre or unqualified. This is because the writer fears that the candidate may later exercise his legal right to read the letter, and perhaps even sue if the contents are not to his liking.
While abolishing the practice of requiring letters of recommendation may at first seem like a good idea, there is really no better way to get reliable information about a candidate's qualifications than to ask people who have had close contact with him or her. What is needed is a means by which the letter writer can convey unfavorable information in a way that the candidate cannot perceive it as such. To this end I have developed the Lexicon of Inconspicuously Ambiguous Recommendations, or LIAR.
Here are a few samples:
(1) To describe a candidate who is woefully inept:
“I most enthusiastically recommend this candidate with no qualifications whatsoever.”
(2) To describe a candidate who is not particularly industrious:
“In my opinion you would be very fortunate to get this person to work for you.”
(3) To describe a candidate with lackluster credentials:
“All in all, I cannot say enough good things about this candidate or recommend him too highly.”
(4) To describe an ex-employee who had difficulty getting along with his co-workers:
“I am pleased to say that this candidate is a former colleague of mine.”
(5) To describe a candidate who is so unproductive that the job would be better left unfilled:
“I can assure you that no person would be better for the job.”
(6) To describe a job applicant who is worth no further consideration:
“I would urge you to waste no time in making this person an offer of employment.”
Any of the above may be used to offer a negative opinion of the personal qualities, work habits, or motivation of the candidate while allowing the candidate to believe that it is high praise. In any case, the phrases are virtually litigation-proof. "
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GS,
I get the spirit and humor of your metaphor but I think it nudges a little too far into “objects=women, women=objects” territory. I don’t think you’re a misogynist (misogynists don’t use phrases like “consensual, polyamorous, non-jealous” to describe relationships) and I’m not looking to censor or condemn you, but I do think you can do better. You’re a clever and witty guy; I don’t doubt you could come up with an equally humorous analogy that doesn’t objectify a subset of the population.
Besides, you have to admit the analogy really does break down when you consider there’s no risk of the scotch turning to Pencil and saying “You know I’ve had a really great time with you, but at this point I’d rather be drunk by Jack instead. I’m sorry if this hurts your feelings but this is how I roll as a polyamorous, non-traditional bottle of booze. You can either respect my decisions or GFTO.” Or at least I assume this is the case. I haven’t bought scotch in a long time, so maybe things have changed.
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GS,
I get the spirit and humor of your metaphor but I think it nudges a little too far into “objects=women, women=objects” territory. I don’t think you’re a misogynist (misogynists don’t use phrases like “consensual, polyamorous, non-jealous” to describe relationships) and I’m not looking to censor or condemn you, but I do think you can do better. You’re a clever and witty guy; I don’t doubt you could come up with an equally humorous analogy that doesn’t objectify a subset of the population.
Besides, you have to admit the analogy really does break down when you consider there’s no risk of the scotch turning to Pencil and saying “You know I’ve had a really great time with you, but at this point I’d rather be drunk by Jack instead. I’m sorry if this hurts your feelings but this is how I roll as a polyamorous, non-traditional bottle of booze. You can either respect my decisions or GFTO.” Or at least I assume this is the case. I haven’t bought scotch in a long time, so maybe things have changed.
What's wrong with comparing women to beverages and noting that some of us are considered more valuable and desirable than others? It's fact.
All analogies eventually break down. In this particular case it's the booze that will eventually run out.
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What's wrong with comparing women to beverages and noting that some of us are considered more valuable and desirable than others? It's fact.
All analogies eventually break down. In this particular case it's the booze that will eventually run out.
Not necessarily. Sometimes the women run out the door... :)
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Oh for the love of god do not recommend him. You have enough trouble living with the guy - imagine if you had to see him all day at work as well. Shudder.
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As I’m opening them, Jack walks into the living room and says “Damn, looks like we don’t need to buy booze for a while, we’re gonna drink good!” Because, being a mooch, someone else’s good fortune naturally translates as his own. I’m all for sharing a drink here and there, hell, we had people over a few nights ago and I opened the private stash to start everybody off with a nice drink. I’m not trying to be a selfish prick, but damn it, don’t act like you have an equal right to my shit.
Easy enough. Next time in the moment deliver a clear "no" with a bit of humor to make it palatable. e.g. "What do you mean we, paleface?"
If he responds still insisting on a right to it, be more direct (w/o the humor). "Don't make me regret sharing my extra food last week, or I'll won't be able to offer anything to you again! These are my presents, thank you very much."
It's like training a puppy. Start early (you missed this one). Set clear boundaries. Enforce the boundaries consistently. Keep it simple. Repeat.
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I got home last night, and once again Jack brought up the idea of me getting him a job. I repeated that there's not much I can do right now, then turned to him and said, "Don't you think that we'd get sick of each other? I mean, living together AND working together? I think that would get old really quick. There are actual in-love couples who couldn't stand to be around each other that much."
"No, PencilThinStash, I don't think that would be an issue at all. You know how similar our minds are - When I'm at work, I get in the zone and focus 100% on that. If your office is on the other side of the building, we'd never really see each other."
Our minds are similar, are they? This from the guy who, before I started setting boundaries, once told me, "I don't know how you spend so much time planning and over-analyzing. And depriving yourself because something doesn't fit in your budget? If my mind worked like that, I'd kill myself."
Oh, but NOW our minds are similar. Holy hell, fuck off.
Anyways, I didn't blow up on that yesterday, we continued the discussion and eventually it came out... the reason that Jack won't stop harping on this topic is because his unemployment just ran out and he can't make life work on his current income.
WHAT?!?!?
Turns out this guy has been on unemployment since he got "laid off" in November. I had no idea until last night.
"Yeah, PencilThinStash, that job is sort of my only way out of this mess. I mean... well... I'll probably be okay through July. But starting in August, I'm fucked. Not sure how I'll pay rent and buy food if I don't start working there soon."
Well, jackass, you'd better damn well find a way. I'll give the owner your resume, but it'll be very clear to him that it's not my recommendation. After that - Beg, borrow, steal, but there's no way in hell I'm covering your share of the rent. If I'm paying for the full apartment, then I'm getting the full thing to myself. Because I am EXACTLY the right amount of icy-hearted bastard to kick you out at that point.
Hell, if I were a little more sarcastic/blasphemous, I could even say that this is Divine Providence shining down on me, opening up the option for another roommate.
Grab your popcorn, boys and girls, apparently this train wreck is just getting started.
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Posting to follow. With GrimSqueaker's ridiculously awesome/hilarious advice and PencilThinStash's reliable follow through on keeping the forum updated, this is all too good to miss.
And don't worry GS, they sell pills at the gas station for performance anxiety.
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Danger, Will Robinson.
Set boundaries now! Express dismay (and sympathy - but w/o offers to help), and ask a lot of "what will you do if"? Point out he shouldn't carry all of his eggs in one basket and start telling him now that you can't carry the whole place by yourself so you'll have to get someone new in. Ask if he needs a hand looking for cheaper places to live and tell him you'll need to start having people in to look at the room. Thank him for telling you now so you can start looking for a new roommate. Don't let this get to the end of the month and be a surprise to him that you won't cover him.
Do NOT float him even one month because it won't end there as you know.
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(i am at work right now) just realized i was sitting here, eyes wide open, popping cashews like popcorn, enthralled in your update. This is great. Good luck man!
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Danger, Will Robinson.
Set boundaries now! Express dismay (and sympathy - but w/o offers to help), and ask a lot of "what will you do if"? Point out he shouldn't carry all of his eggs in one basket and start telling him now that you can't carry the whole place by yourself so you'll have to get someone new in. Ask if he needs a hand looking for cheaper places to live and tell him you'll need to start having people in to look at the room. Thank him for telling you now so you can start looking for a new roommate. Don't let this get to the end of the month and be a surprise to him that you won't cover him.
Do NOT float him even one month because it won't end there as you know.
Great idea. I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow - when I get back next week I'll bring that discussion up. Make it appear I spent the whole trip puzzling on it, like I'm actually worried.
Jack can try to get money out of me, but to give my best impersonation of the late great Charlton Heston:
FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!
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Danger, Will Robinson.
Set boundaries now! Express dismay (and sympathy - but w/o offers to help), and ask a lot of "what will you do if"? Point out he shouldn't carry all of his eggs in one basket and start telling him now that you can't carry the whole place by yourself so you'll have to get someone new in. Ask if he needs a hand looking for cheaper places to live and tell him you'll need to start having people in to look at the room. Thank him for telling you now so you can start looking for a new roommate. Don't let this get to the end of the month and be a surprise to him that you won't cover him.
Do NOT float him even one month because it won't end there as you know.
All this.
If only you had the option of either kicking him out for non-payment of rent but making sure he gets the job OR unrecommending him for the job but still living with him. I'm enjoying the updates and advice you're getting but spending 24 hrs a day with him would be way too much.
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Posting to follow. With GrimSqueaker's ridiculously awesome/hilarious advice and PencilThinStash's reliable follow through on keeping the forum updated, this is all too good to miss.
And don't worry GS, they sell pills at the gas station for performance anxiety.
My performance anxiety medicine is sold by the bottle.
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Danger, Will Robinson.
Set boundaries now! Express dismay (and sympathy - but w/o offers to help), and ask a lot of "what will you do if"? Point out he shouldn't carry all of his eggs in one basket and start telling him now that you can't carry the whole place by yourself so you'll have to get someone new in. Ask if he needs a hand looking for cheaper places to live and tell him you'll need to start having people in to look at the room. Thank him for telling you now so you can start looking for a new roommate. Don't let this get to the end of the month and be a surprise to him that you won't cover him.
Do NOT float him even one month because it won't end there as you know.
Great idea. I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow - when I get back next week I'll bring that discussion up. Make it appear I spent the whole trip puzzling on it, like I'm actually worried.
Jack can try to get money out of me, but to give my best impersonation of the late great Charlton Heston:
FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!
Make sure your alcohol stash is inaccessible in the meantime, or you might come back to a pile of empty bottles on the counter.
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Danger, Will Robinson.
Set boundaries now! Express dismay (and sympathy - but w/o offers to help), and ask a lot of "what will you do if"? Point out he shouldn't carry all of his eggs in one basket and start telling him now that you can't carry the whole place by yourself so you'll have to get someone new in. Ask if he needs a hand looking for cheaper places to live and tell him you'll need to start having people in to look at the room. Thank him for telling you now so you can start looking for a new roommate. Don't let this get to the end of the month and be a surprise to him that you won't cover him.
Do NOT float him even one month because it won't end there as you know.
Great idea. I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow - when I get back next week I'll bring that discussion up. Make it appear I spent the whole trip puzzling on it, like I'm actually worried.
Jack can try to get money out of me, but to give my best impersonation of the late great Charlton Heston:
FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!
Make sure your alcohol stash is inaccessible in the meantime, or you might come back to a pile of empty bottles on the counter.
True. Again, like a puppy, be prepared for bad behavior after you tell him this. I'd honestly see if a friend can stash your nice alcohol (and anything else nice he might get into) in the meantime.
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I got home last night, and once again Jack brought up the idea of me getting him a job. I repeated that there's not much I can do right now, then turned to him and said, "Don't you think that we'd get sick of each other? I mean, living together AND working together? I think that would get old really quick. There are actual in-love couples who couldn't stand to be around each other that much."
"No, PencilThinStash, I don't think that would be an issue at all. You know how similar our minds are - When I'm at work, I get in the zone and focus 100% on that. If your office is on the other side of the building, we'd never really see each other."
Our minds are similar, are they? This from the guy who, before I started setting boundaries, once told me, "I don't know how you spend so much time planning and over-analyzing. And depriving yourself because something doesn't fit in your budget? If my mind worked like that, I'd kill myself."
Oh, but NOW our minds are similar. Holy hell, fuck off.
Anyways, I didn't blow up on that yesterday, we continued the discussion and eventually it came out... the reason that Jack won't stop harping on this topic is because his unemployment just ran out and he can't make life work on his current income.
WHAT?!?!?
Turns out this guy has been on unemployment since he got "laid off" in November. I had no idea until last night.
"Yeah, PencilThinStash, that job is sort of my only way out of this mess. I mean... well... I'll probably be okay through July. But starting in August, I'm fucked. Not sure how I'll pay rent and buy food if I don't start working there soon."
Well, jackass, you'd better damn well find a way. I'll give the owner your resume, but it'll be very clear to him that it's not my recommendation. After that - Beg, borrow, steal, but there's no way in hell I'm covering your share of the rent. If I'm paying for the full apartment, then I'm getting the full thing to myself. Because I am EXACTLY the right amount of icy-hearted bastard to kick you out at that point.
Hell, if I were a little more sarcastic/blasphemous, I could even say that this is Divine Providence shining down on me, opening up the option for another roommate.
Grab your popcorn, boys and girls, apparently this train wreck is just getting started.
AWHOOGAH! AWHOOGAH! AWHOOGAH!
Control Room to Captain PencilThinStache! Another of your fucks has escaped and is headed in the direction of whether or not Jack gets a job. Recommend emergency containment procedures to prevent full IS-LOCA. If the fuck is not contained and redirected, you must initiate SCRAM to release the fuel rods and prevent a full reactor core meltdown.
Seriously, whether he has a job or not is only a blip on the radar screen to the extent that you and he are on a lease together. If he's not on the lease, then he has no rights and you can kick him out. If he IS on the lease, then you're about to have a big problem. So in case he doesn't have a job by the end of the month, call the landlord and do whatever it takes to get him "let out" of the lease so that he's not on the hook for payments and so that his credit won't be affected.
As long as Jack's name is on the lease, he has the full legal right to stay there until the end of the lease term, regardless of whether he's paying rent, and the two of your are jointly and severally responsible for the rent payments. Meaning... if he doesn't pay, you are legally obligated to cover his share, you can't get rid of him since he has the legal right to be there, and the only way to break up the lease is to go to court and have the landlord evict both of you. Which will suck. THAT, my dear sir, is the direction in which you must aim your fuck.
Your problem is not whether or not Jack gets a job, but you've allowed it to become your problem by not addressing your real problem, which is whether or not Jack is on the same lease as you.
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In all seriousness, what happened to his benefactor who treated him like family, the one who was going to give him $100k or something? Obviously that was clearly BS all along but I'm curious what Jack would have to say about it.
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AWHOOGAH! AWHOOGAH! AWHOOGAH!
Control Room to Captain PencilThinStache! Another of your fucks has escaped and is headed in the direction of whether or not Jack gets a job. Recommend emergency containment procedures to prevent full IS-LOCA. If the fuck is not contained and redirected, you must initiate SCRAM to release the fuel rods and prevent a full reactor core meltdown.
Seriously, whether he has a job or not is only a blip on the radar screen to the extent that you and he are on a lease together. If he's not on the lease, then he has no rights and you can kick him out. If he IS on the lease, then you're about to have a big problem. So in case he doesn't have a job by the end of the month, call the landlord and do whatever it takes to get him "let out" of the lease so that he's not on the hook for payments and so that his credit won't be affected.
As long as Jack's name is on the lease, he has the full legal right to stay there until the end of the lease term, regardless of whether he's paying rent, and the two of your are jointly and severally responsible for the rent payments. Meaning... if he doesn't pay, you are legally obligated to cover his share, you can't get rid of him since he has the legal right to be there, and the only way to break up the lease is to go to court and have the landlord evict both of you. Which will suck. THAT, my dear sir, is the direction in which you must aim your fuck.
Your problem is not whether or not Jack gets a job, but you've allowed it to become your problem by not addressing your real problem, which is whether or not Jack is on the same lease as you.
Unfortunately... He IS on the lease.
Which, I suppose made my "kick him out" comment a little premature. Knee-jerk reaction before I'd taken the time to think through the process. You may be a delightful rubber duck, but one of my greater flaws is that I'm only human.
You misunderstood, though - I'm still not recommending him for the job. And I don't care whether he gets another job or not, hence my "beg, borrow, or steal" line.
My fuck is 100% aimed at how to either get him off this lease or break out of it myself. Any situation where I'm liable for the full rent, while he can't afford to pay for his half? Unac-fucking-ceptable.
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Unfortunately... He IS on the lease.
are you on the lease? If you are you might be responsible for 100% of the rent even if he doesn't have money.
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Oh, I'm not suggesting that you recommend him for the job. That would make at least some of his problems into your employer's problems, and by extension, your problems. Not at all good for fuck conservatorship.
('scuse me while I pull on these thigh-high leather boots and jodhpurs and pick up a quirt while someone else beats out a drum line cadence in the background)
Everybody fucks up sometimes, even rubber ducks. But the beauty of selective fornication donation-- the ability to aim one's fucks and fire only at will with sniper-like precision-- is that we use it to do three things.
(now I have one of those old-fashioned slide shows and am reading the following list in my best Untergang voice, smacking each point with the quirt as I go.)
1. Ve keep our fuck-ups from affecting other people
2. Ve limit other people's ability to affect us with their fuck-ups, und
3. Ve ensure the lines of communication are open at all times for the times when things get out of control no matter what we do.
You must now either speak to Jack's parents, and inform them what their little Scheissekopf has done, or get him to do it himself.
Other options include pimping Jack out: if the back pages of the local newspaper don't pan out for him, then depending on how the landlord swings Jack might be able to take his part of the rent out in trade.
The final fallback position is to get Jack to ask the landlord to let him (but not you) out of the lease. Does the lease have a buyout clause or is it the full pound-me-in-the-ass version? And, can you replace Jack with someone who's less of an infant?
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Do some homework. Your landlord or management company may have special rules for removing someone from a lease.
I worked in property management for a couple of years. Sadly, unless he comes in to take himself off the lease (if that's allowed, you'll both probably have to sign an addendum to the lease...no biggie), you're SOL.
You need to make it clear that he is to get a job, any job, as you will not cover his living expenses (whether you can or not is not the point...make it clear you will not). Worst case scenario has already been spelled out; he remains on the lease through the end date, and you're on the hook for everything. Don't try to pull anything or only pay your half. YOU DO NOT WANT AN EVICTION ON YOUR RECORD. Many landlords can deal with mediocre credit, but an eviction on your record is very very bad.
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+1 to going to the landlord NOW....
As a property manager, I am 100% ready to work with a tenant who comes to me in advance with a problem and a reasonable solution. I will not however be drawn into drama...so my renters who split up and wanted to split their payments. Abso-fucking-lutely not. I don't give a crap who pays, but I will only be accepting one payment per month for the full amount.
If however, you want out of your lease early....no problem with 30 -60 day warning....especially if individual tenant is ready to sign a new lease. I would be willing to bet that if you are proactive, your landlord will work with you to an amenable solution
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This is the thread that just keeps giving. I dont know what to expect next...
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Following.
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Hahaha sorry about that, GrimSqueaker. Great response, as always. Particularly the part about how to turn my escaped fucks into flying fucks.
LeRainDrop, thanks for the links. Solid advice.
Suppose, for whatever reason, you had several attractive, intelligent, fit, Mustachian women who were into booty calls, and who wanted to hang out with you in a consensual, polyamorous, non-jealous way.
Thanks for putting that picture in my mind, by the way. Damn it, now I'm tempted to go create a thread in Mustachian and Single...
That might actually solve your problems :)
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Emphasis mine:
Control Room to Captain PencilThinStache! Another of your fucks has escaped and is headed in the direction of whether or not Jack gets a job. Recommend emergency containment procedures to prevent full IS-LOCA. If the fuck is not contained and redirected, you must initiate SCRAM to release the fuel rods
I sure as hell hope not ;)
I've been following this thread because a lot of what GS says is the advice I often find myself giving to friends who, frankly, care too much about what Absolute Jackasses think of them. (As opposed to what nice, kind, selfless, quality people think of them, which is often a much more useful metric.) I would get this sucker out of your apartment as soon as possible by any means necessary. But then I'm kind of a dick, so your mileage may vary. In any case: save your fucks for other people!
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Emphasis mine:
Control Room to Captain PencilThinStache! Another of your fucks has escaped and is headed in the direction of whether or not Jack gets a job. Recommend emergency containment procedures to prevent full IS-LOCA. If the fuck is not contained and redirected, you must initiate SCRAM to release the fuel rods
I sure as hell hope not ;)
I've been following this thread because a lot of what GS says is the advice I often find myself giving to friends who, frankly, care too much about what Absolute Jackasses think of them. (As opposed to what nice, kind, selfless, quality people think of them, which is often a much more useful metric.) I would get this sucker out of your apartment as soon as possible by any means necessary. But then I'm kind of a dick, so your mileage may vary. In any case: save your fucks for other people!
Dropping the rods (or SCRAM) is a disaster response procedure for nuclear power plants. When you've got a loss of coolant accident (LOCA), particulary an inter-system (IS) variety, one of the fallback emergency responses is to limit the size of the disaster by getting the rods out of the system. That procedure is called SCRAM. Techniques vary (you don't really want to do it manually) but if the rods are held in place electromagnetically all you have to do is cut power to the circuit. When you release those fuel rods, gravity takes over and the rods fall down into whatever containment system you've designed. The nuclear reaction doesn't stop but it does slow down, and then the hazardous waste is confined to one area instead of spread out wherever the coolant went. So, yes, when shit hits the fan and you're having a core meltdown, you do indeed want to drop the rods so as to limit the damage.
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Dropping the rods (or SCRAM) is a disaster response procedure for nuclear power plants. When you've got a loss of coolant accident (LOCA), particulary an inter-system (IS) variety, one of the fallback emergency responses is to limit the size of the disaster by getting the rods out of the system. That procedure is called SCRAM. Techniques vary (you don't really want to do it manually) but if the rods are held in place electromagnetically all you have to do is cut power to the circuit. When you release those fuel rods, gravity takes over and the rods fall down into whatever containment system you've designed. The nuclear reaction doesn't stop but it does slow down, and then the hazardous waste is confined to one area instead of spread out wherever the coolant went. So, yes, when shit hits the fan and you're having a core meltdown, you do indeed want to drop the rods so as to limit the damage.
Well, when you SCRAM a light-water reactor you simultaneously insert all the control rods, not the fuel rods. The fuel rods stay put (outside of a refuel) - the control rods are what we move to directly affect reactivity.
Edit: I will allow a variance if, in your design for a reactor best suited to generating fucks rather than heat, you have found moving the actual fuel more effective for controlling the amount of fucks given to nincompoops like PencilThinStache's roomie.
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Dropping the rods (or SCRAM) is a disaster response procedure for nuclear power plants. When you've got a loss of coolant accident (LOCA), particulary an inter-system (IS) variety, one of the fallback emergency responses is to limit the size of the disaster by getting the rods out of the system. That procedure is called SCRAM. Techniques vary (you don't really want to do it manually) but if the rods are held in place electromagnetically all you have to do is cut power to the circuit. When you release those fuel rods, gravity takes over and the rods fall down into whatever containment system you've designed. The nuclear reaction doesn't stop but it does slow down, and then the hazardous waste is confined to one area instead of spread out wherever the coolant went. So, yes, when shit hits the fan and you're having a core meltdown, you do indeed want to drop the rods so as to limit the damage.
Well, when you SCRAM a light-water reactor you simultaneously insert all the control rods, not the fuel rods. The fuel rods stay put (outside of a refuel) - the control rods are what we move to directly affect reactivity.
Edit: I will allow a variance if, in your design for a reactor best suited to generating fucks rather than heat, you have found moving the actual fuel more effective for controlling the amount of fucks given to nincompoops like PencilThinStache's roomie.
Acknowledged: in a light-water reactor we shall SCRAM control rods. But we've simply got to design our fuck-generating reactor differently. For one thing, in a fuck generating reactor, control is generally not provided by rods so much as by sphincters. Insertion of multiple rods is a delicate process that can be extremely uncomfortable at the best of times.
Fuck generating fuel can be defined as an item of desire or contention. Removing such an item from view, availability, or consideration slows down the fuck generating process but may not completely stop it.
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Acknowledged: in a light-water reactor we shall SCRAM control rods. But we've simply got to design our fuck-generating reactor differently. For one thing, in a fuck generating reactor, control is generally not provided by rods so much as by sphincters. Insertion of multiple rods is a delicate process that can be extremely uncomfortable at the best of times.
Fuck generating fuel can be defined as an item of desire or contention. Removing such an item from view, availability, or consideration slows down the fuck generating process but may not completely stop it.
Rather than SCRAM, I propose a new mechanism for emergency shutdown of PencilThinStash's fuck-giving capacity: CRAM, which is initiated by turning the fuck-giving switch to SHUTDOWN and saying to the roomie, "You can CRAM it, you mooching asswipe." No further action necessary except maybe calling a waah-mbulance for the victim.
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Acknowledged: in a light-water reactor we shall SCRAM control rods. But we've simply got to design our fuck-generating reactor differently. For one thing, in a fuck generating reactor, control is generally not provided by rods so much as by sphincters. Insertion of multiple rods is a delicate process that can be extremely uncomfortable at the best of times.
Fuck generating fuel can be defined as an item of desire or contention. Removing such an item from view, availability, or consideration slows down the fuck generating process but may not completely stop it.
Rather than SCRAM, I propose a new mechanism for emergency shutdown of PencilThinStash's fuck-giving capacity: CRAM, which is initiated by turning the fuck-giving switch to SHUTDOWN and saying to the roomie, "You can CRAM it, you mooching asswipe." No further action necessary except maybe calling a waah-mbulance for the victim.
Agreed, with two further design features. First, the existing fucks will have to be redirected to the contract between Jack, PencilThinStache, and the landlord. Second, PencilThinStache will have to be explicit about where and how the CRAM should occur. Jack's not very good with boundaries or verbal instructions so the lad will have to have it spelled out for him.
To illustrate, with yet another offensive analogy...
A long time ago when schematics were still drawn on paper and rolled up for ease in transport, an engineer handed a manager such a rolled drawing as evidence that the engineer's opinion was in fact correct. The manager refused to take it, and told the engineer to stick that drawing wherever it fit best. The engineer shrugged and then said: "Fine. Bend over."
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20 to 1, if you go to your landlord and tell him the following they will work with you:
1) My roommate lost his job last November and just now told me, after the unemployment ran out. He didn't start looking for a job until last month.
2) My roommate is a mooch and I would rather be evicted than live with him and pay his half of the rent, letting him live off of me scot free.
3) If you let us out of the lease I'll sign a new lease without him on it that will keep you collecting your rent checks on a timely and regular basis.
4) I'll be getting a new roommate at some point but I don't want them on the lease so neither of us has to go thru this drama again. I have learned from my mistake.
And I'm really bummed that no one appears to have appreciated the Lexicon of Inconspicuously Ambiguous Referrals. I think they are a real hoot.
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Yeah. I think the problem with kicking Jack out of "your" apartment is that legally it isn't more your apartment than his. But I agree -- talk to your landlord and see if either YOU can get out of the apartment or get Jack out.
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20 to 1, if you go to your landlord and tell him the following they will work with you:
1) My roommate lost his job last November and just now told me, after the unemployment ran out. He didn't start looking for a job until last month.
2) My roommate is a mooch and I would rather be evicted than live with him and pay his half of the rent, letting him live off of me scot free.
3) If you let us out of the lease I'll sign a new lease without him on it that will keep you collecting your rent checks on a timely and regular basis.
4) I'll be getting a new roommate at some point but I don't want them on the lease so neither of us has to go thru this drama again. I have learned from my mistake.
And I'm really bummed that no one appears to have appreciated the Lexicon of Inconspicuously Ambiguous Referrals. I think they are a real hoot.
They hit a bit too close to home. I've used a couple of them myself, such as "I cannot recommend this candidate too strongly." But I always feel like such a weasel.
O' the lease: unless Jack shows up in person wanting to be taken off the lease as well as PencilThinStache, no landlord in his right mind will boot him out. All Jack would have to do is go crying to the nearest ambulance chaser about how the evil landlord didn't follow the proper eviction process, and the landlord would be in abatement hell. But if both people agree, the lessor can write an addendum to the existing contract, replacing Jack with someone else or allowing PencilThinStache to qualify solo. Yet that doesn't necessarily mean that PencilThinStache's next roommate can be an off-the-lease sublet with any random person, or a string of people (which might be the case if he follows through on his threat to post in the Mustachian dating forum). No sensible landlord will allow that.
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Sorry to things are turning out this way PencilThinStash...
OK, that might be not completely true. For you as a person, Yes I'm sorry; I truly am.
From my egoistical point of view: please share more!
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Sorry to things are turning out this way PencilThinStash...
OK, that might be not completely true. For you as a person, Yes I'm sorry; I truly am.
From my egoistical point of view: please share more!
For a moment Jack I thought you were the subject of this drama...
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I had a somewhat similar situation with a hell-ish roommate a few years back. Thankfully, everyone in the house had separate leases, and he was eventually forced out. But boy the ordeal was consuming every shred of idle brain power. You seem to be taking it in stride and handling it really, really well.
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Posting to follow...
And I did appreciate LIAR.
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When does the lease end?
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I agree that both parties have to ask the landlord to get released from the lease or the landlord isn't likely to do it.
That said, there is no reason to tell the roommate you'll be re-renting the apartment after you get off the lease.
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Being called on the mooching, and cut off, is not actually new to the moocher. Nor will it hurt his feelings. He already doesn't give a fuck about you or your well-being, except to the extent that you're able to provide for him.
Took me so long to realise this about my sister.
I would feel conflicted over whether or not to give in to her demands, then feel guilty for denying her pleas (mostly for cash). She would push back for a minute or two, call me a bitch and a tightarse, then move on to the next victim without a second thought.
It certainly never dissuaded her from calling the next time she wanted something.
I read somewhere: givers have to set limits because takers never do.
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Dezrah, thanks for nailing charitably and exactly my feelings on the women=booze analogy. Squeaker, you give far too consistent an impression of being a brilliantly clever writer to settle for a tired, cliché "women are also consumable goods..." It's too culturally-sanctioned and workaday for even the cheaper surprise of actual offense - it commits the more egregious sin of being distastefully boring. I'd not think you had it in you to disappoint the ladies so, when pointedly and readily you can delight with the anatomical applications of nuclear analogy (and schematics) and a sprinkling of carefully-dispensed, hand-reared, probably cage-free sound effects. Bravo. (Willl the term 'fast insertion' actually go unused? I am surprised.)
To the OP: I second all the suggestions for at least some transparency with the landlord, as they're likely to see more money in keeping your honest and responsible self long-term than driving you off, though you may need to volunteer transferring to another unit to keep the mooch from trying to outstay his own contractual entitlement. Have I, among others, missed the lease timeframe above? You've done incredibly well sublimating the insanity of the situation into a serial for us here but we want to hear it end well.
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Get rid of this roomie and go solo for a while. Quietly and carefully tell boss that he is your roomie and you wouldn't hire him. Avoid people who think your things are their things. I was very, very glad to get to that point in my life that I could avoid having roomies.
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@GrimSqueaker Please ignore all the haters. Even the ones hating with their polite faces on. You are a clever writer, and the analogy was just fine! Some people just love to be offended, even though you clearly meant no offense. Many probably didn't catch that you were a woman, and assumed otherwise due to your excellent take on becoming the Alpha.
For the large contribution you make to the forum, I would like to say, "Thank-you." Your posts are genuine and real, and a pleasure to read.
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@GrimSqueaker Please ignore all the haters.
Except the ones who hate when GS makes INACCURATE STATEMENTS ABOUT THE OPERATION OF PRESSURIZED WATER REACTORS AAARGH um I mean, I agree entirely. ;D
Edit: I'm gonna try and quit derailing this thread now. Sorry, OP!
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This thread is one of the most entertaining things I've seen in a long time, and for that, PencilThinStash, you have my sympathy.
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Haters? Nah. It's probably time to admit to my real agenda. You see, in this particular thread I'm deliberately offending as many people as possible, for grins and giggles.
So far I've irritated:
- Managers
- Engineers
- Dog owners
- Farmers
- Chemical/Nuclear engineers who know bugger-all about correct fuck reactor design :) though I did own up to my technical error about pressurized water reactors
- Women
- Deer ticks
- Fetishists
- Alcoholics
- Heterosexual men (with the "running out" gag which was actually the most viciously sexist thing I've said so far)
- Anyone who enjoys anal sex
- Nazis
- IPA drinkers
- Clergy
- Porn viewers
... and the La Leche League.
That should be almost everybody. In fact there should be a fair bit of overlap, especially in the Nazi, fetish, and management communities.
Have I missed anyone?
Poor PencilThinStache... he went on vacation and left us in charge of the fuck factory, and look what happened.
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Poor PencilThinStache... he went on vacation and left us in charge of the fuck factory, and look what happened.
Well, this is the Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy, so when he's not providing the Shame(ful exploits of his beggar of a roomie), we must provide the Comedy.
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Poor PencilThinStache... he went on vacation and left us in charge of the fuck factory, and look what happened.
Well, this is the Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy, so when he's not providing the Shame(ful exploits of his beggar of a roomie), we must provide the Comedy.
I'm well suited to that, especially since my last concussion.
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@GrimSqueaker Please ignore all the haters. Even the ones hating with their polite faces on. You are a clever writer, and the analogy was just fine! Some people just love to be offended, even though you clearly meant no offense. Many probably didn't catch that you were a woman, and assumed otherwise due to your excellent take on becoming the Alpha.
For the large contribution you make to the forum, I would like to say, "Thank-you." Your posts are genuine and real, and a pleasure to read.
wait...is this true Grim?
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@GrimSqueaker Please ignore all the haters. Even the ones hating with their polite faces on. You are a clever writer, and the analogy was just fine! Some people just love to be offended, even though you clearly meant no offense. Many probably didn't catch that you were a woman, and assumed otherwise due to your excellent take on becoming the Alpha.
For the large contribution you make to the forum, I would like to say, "Thank-you." Your posts are genuine and real, and a pleasure to read.
wait...is this true Grim?
Hang on, let me check.
... uh huh... yeah... that's what I thought...
I still do in fact have a vagina.
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Haters? Nah. It's probably time to admit to my real agenda. You see, in this particular thread I'm deliberately offending as many people as possible, for grins and giggles.
So far I've irritated:
- Managers
- Engineers
- Dog owners
- Farmers
- Chemical/Nuclear engineers who know bugger-all about correct fuck reactor design :) though I did own up to my technical error about pressurized water reactors
- Women
- Deer ticks
- Fetishists
- Alcoholics
- Heterosexual men (with the "running out" gag which was actually the most viciously sexist thing I've said so far)
- Anyone who enjoys anal sex
- Nazis
- IPA drinkers
- Clergy
- Porn viewers
... and the La Leche League.
That should be almost everybody. In fact there should be a fair bit of overlap, especially in the Nazi, fetish, and management communities.
Have I missed anyone?
Poor PencilThinStache... he went on vacation and left us in charge of the fuck factory, and look what happened.
I fall into most of those categories but was not offended.
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This thread is awesome, and GS, if you're ever in my neck of the woods I would like to buy you your preferred flavor of alcohol.
But I do want to say that I thought Dezrah's points were well made. It's easier to make cliched jokes than creative ones, and it gets tiring dealing with objectification, no matter the characteristics of the person doing the objectifying.
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@GrimSqueaker Please ignore all the haters. Even the ones hating with their polite faces on. You are a clever writer, and the analogy was just fine! Some people just love to be offended, even though you clearly meant no offense. Many probably didn't catch that you were a woman, and assumed otherwise due to your excellent take on becoming the Alpha.
For the large contribution you make to the forum, I would like to say, "Thank-you." Your posts are genuine and real, and a pleasure to read.
wait...is this true Grim?
Hang on, let me check.
... uh huh... yeah... that's what I thought...
I still do in fact have a vagina.
well i'll be a s.o.b...
maybe it was the original alpha male post that made me think you were male...no idea...anyways..carry on with the hilarity please kthanks
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What's wrong with comparing women to beverages and noting that some of us are considered more valuable and desirable than others? It's fact.
Found the not so subtle hint!
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ha ha this thread, I love it so. I have not been irritated (and I'm a manager, an engineer, and a chemical/nuclear engineer who *does* know about correct NAVY reactor design).
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@GrimSqueaker Please ignore all the haters. Even the ones hating with their polite faces on. You are a clever writer, and the analogy was just fine! Some people just love to be offended, even though you clearly meant no offense. Many probably didn't catch that you were a woman, and assumed otherwise due to your excellent take on becoming the Alpha.
For the large contribution you make to the forum, I would like to say, "Thank-you." Your posts are genuine and real, and a pleasure to read.
wait...is this true Grim?
Hang on, let me check.
... uh huh... yeah... that's what I thought...
I still do in fact have a vagina.
HAH! Big loud laughter. Thanks, Grim... made my day. Although I was starting to reverse my thinking of your gender (from male) with the description of mutually satisfying and respectful three-ways... I have not come across a lot of male writers that put it quite that way...
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From age 25-27 I had two guys that would drop in at my place every single Friday and Saturday night. We'd have a few beers, go out to the bar, then back to my place. The party would be over and they'd go home when my fridge was empty of alcohol. It actually took me a long time to clue in, "Neither of them has ever brought shit--they just drink my beer, listen to music, and leave when it's gone. Sure, I have the good job but they've drank at least $4000 of my beer." I think I didn't get it because I'd finally just gotten a decent salaried job so had more money than ever before in life. ...And growing up, my other (good) friends and I had always pooled our resources. I liked treating guests who came over.
But these dudes: 2 guys x 8 beers each x 2 weekend nights x 52 weekends x 2 years? Holy shitballs!!
Conversation went like this:
Me: "You should bring some beer over sometime, you know?"
Friend: "Oh, I didn't know it was an issue."
Me: "It's not, but you and Davey never bring any and it's added up over the past couple of years."
Friend: "Sure, no problem, dude--I'll bring some over this weekend."
NEVER SAW THEM AT MY PLACE AGAIN!! They never called or dropped by or anything. ...Fuckers.
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Acknowledge your girlfriends, invite them to your parties, and encourage them to socialize with your friends and family. Set aside intimate time with each of them one-on-one, and perhaps have a couple of three-ways if you really want to get your lips wet. But keep them from crossing Jack's path.
Jack knows your girlfriends exist, and he's clamoring to be set up with them because in his mind you've got more poon than you really need or can service. Yet that would be a waste of a sensitive, caring partner.
I'm all hot and bothered now.
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Until today, I also thought @GS was a man. :)
It's interesting how you can form a picture of someone in your head based on what he writes, and then when you find out that he is actually a she, how it kind of messes with your head.
For anyone thinking of maybe renting out a room in her house, there's some pretty useful advice on @GS's website, theliveinlandlord.com (http://theliveinlandlord.com/). I've been reading some of it and have bookmarked the site for future reference. It's interesting how @GS's voice on the website is pretty different from here on the forum. When I read her posts on her website, I picture her dressed in business clothes, sitting in an office. When I read @GS's posts here in this thread I picture her sitting at home in her pajamas sipping on a glass of bourbon. Probably both of the images in my head are wrong... :)
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Acknowledge your girlfriends, invite them to your parties, and encourage them to socialize with your friends and family. Set aside intimate time with each of them one-on-one, and perhaps have a couple of three-ways if you really want to get your lips wet. But keep them from crossing Jack's path.
Jack knows your girlfriends exist, and he's clamoring to be set up with them because in his mind you've got more poon than you really need or can service. Yet that would be a waste of a sensitive, caring partner.
I'm all hot and bothered now.
Keep the analogy with the bourbon: on the rocks!
Think of those icecubes melting, suddenly creating small drops of water on the outside out of nowhere
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I am a deer tick and I find TGS very offense. You know what you did.
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What's wrong with comparing women to beverages and noting that some of us are considered more valuable and desirable than others? It's fact.
Found the not so subtle hint!
Same here. Until that point, I had assumed Grim Squeaker was a man. Then when I read that, I was like, "Oh wow! Mad props to this lady!" (I am a woman.)
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What's wrong with comparing women to beverages and noting that some of us are considered more valuable and desirable than others? It's fact.
Found the not so subtle hint!
Same here. Until that point, I had assumed Grim Squeaker was a man. Then when I read that, I was like, "Oh wow! Mad props to this lady!" (I am a woman.)
Then shouldn't you be LaRainDrop? ;)
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What's wrong with comparing women to beverages and noting that some of us are considered more valuable and desirable than others? It's fact.
Found the not so subtle hint!
Same here. Until that point, I had assumed Grim Squeaker was a man. Then when I read that, I was like, "Oh wow! Mad props to this lady!" (I am a woman.)
Then shouldn't you be LaRainDrop? ;)
That's assuming French genders make any sense. I'm just sayin': vagina is masculine. erection is feminine.
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From age 25-27 I had two guys that would drop in at my place every single Friday and Saturday night. We'd have a few beers, go out to the bar, then back to my place. The party would be over and they'd go home when my fridge was empty of alcohol. It actually took me a long time to clue in, "Neither of them has ever brought shit--they just drink my beer, listen to music, and leave when it's gone. Sure, I have the good job but they've drank at least $4000 of my beer." I think I didn't get it because I'd finally just gotten a decent salaried job so had more money than ever before in life. ...And growing up, my other (good) friends and I had always pooled our resources. I liked treating guests who came over.
But these dudes: 2 guys x 8 beers each x 2 weekend nights x 52 weekends x 2 years? Holy shitballs!!
Conversation went like this:
Me: "You should bring some beer over sometime, you know?"
Friend: "Oh, I didn't know it was an issue."
Me: "It's not, but you and Davey never bring any and it's added up over the past couple of years."
Friend: "Sure, no problem, dude--I'll bring some over this weekend."
NEVER SAW THEM AT MY PLACE AGAIN!! They never called or dropped by or anything. ...Fuckers.
Looks like you got out of that *only* $4000 in the hole. Could have been worse!
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I think these situations are almost a rite of passage of your 20's.
Friends who overstay their welcome or visit too frequently when you get your first place.
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Thanks for the love, folks. And the good-natured burns!
Now, I'd like to do my part to clean up the party mess before the grown-ups get back, and get PencilThinStache's thread back on the rails. I should probably stop offending people for a moment and mention one more problem that's going to recur.
There are two plays Jack may try next. One is what I call "the Suck Play", and it's classic self-sabotage combined with a late stage plea for help that's designed to appeal to other people's altruistic instincts.
The other play is one I call "the Velociraptor". It relies on triangulation (playing one person off against another). There are three people involved: the manipulator (Jack), the target (PencilThinStache), and a third party. The play differs from the cat's paw because the third party doesn't take risks or come to harm; the only goals are to isolate the target from the community and to apply pressure on the target to act in the manipulator's interests.
In the Velociraptor play, the manipulator goes slithering around to people who know the target, and has a highly selective meltdown. An adept manipulator won't actually ask for help. The third party really, truly, honestly believes that the target is at fault (when in reality the problem is due to the manipulator's own behavior). But the third party, acting on what he or she truly believes is his or her own initiative, goes off and applies pressure or punishment to the target, in order to get the target to give the manipulator what he or she wants. As with the velociraptors in "Jurassic Park", the attack will come from the side.
The Velociraptor differs from the classic Cat's Paw play because the fuckup doesn't ask the third party to intervene.
So, PencilThinStache, when you get back from your vacation, you might get a question or comment about Jack's job search and finances from a source you wouldn't have otherwise expected.
Your defense is the truth: The two of you exchanged job leads, and the job you got came from a lead Jack found but chose to not follow up on. After he wouldn't call them back, you were hired. Since then, he's done nothing but sit on his ass and party. Now that it's too late to find work, instead of flipping burgers Jack is wasting time bitching to people and getting them to come to you and pretend you somehow caused the situation. You weren't the one who stapled a piano to Jack's ass. So although you're willing to pass his resume on a second time it's unlikely your boss will react well given that Jack ignored the first job offer. it's inappropriate for you to care more than Jack does about his job search. So you don't, except to the extent he's on your lease. But if they feel that badly about the situation, and they obviously do because they're sticking their noses into it, they're welcome to pay Jack's half of the rent for him for just as long as they like.
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Thanks for the love, folks. And the good-natured burns!
Now, I'd like to do my part to clean up the party mess before the grown-ups get back, and get PencilThinStache's thread back on the rails. I should probably stop offending people for a moment and mention one more problem that's going to recur.
There are two plays Jack may try next. One is what I call "the Suck Play", and it's classic self-sabotage combined with a late stage plea for help that's designed to appeal to other people's altruistic instincts.
The other play is one I call "the Velociraptor". It relies on triangulation (playing one person off against another). There are three people involved: the manipulator (Jack), the target (PencilThinStache), and a third party. The play differs from the cat's paw because the third party doesn't take risks or come to harm; the only goals are to isolate the target from the community and to apply pressure on the target to act in the manipulator's interests.
In the Velociraptor play, the manipulator goes slithering around to people who know the target, and has a highly selective meltdown. An adept manipulator won't actually ask for help. The third party really, truly, honestly believes that the target is at fault (when in reality the problem is due to the manipulator's own behavior). But the third party, acting on what he or she truly believes is his or her own initiative, goes off and applies pressure or punishment to the target, in order to get the target to give the manipulator what he or she wants. As with the velociraptors in "Jurassic Park", the attack will come from the side.
The Velociraptor differs from the classic Cat's Paw play because the fuckup doesn't ask the third party to intervene.
So, PencilThinStache, when you get back from your vacation, you might get a question or comment about Jack's job search and finances from a source you wouldn't have otherwise expected.
Your defense is the truth: The two of you exchanged job leads, and the job you got came from a lead Jack found but chose to not follow up on. After he wouldn't call them back, you were hired. Since then, he's done nothing but sit on his ass and party. Now that it's too late to find work, instead of flipping burgers Jack is wasting time bitching to people and getting them to come to you and pretend you somehow caused the situation. You weren't the one who stapled a piano to Jack's ass. So although you're willing to pass his resume on a second time it's unlikely your boss will react well given that Jack ignored the first job offer. it's inappropriate for you to care more than Jack does about his job search. So you don't, except to the extent he's on your lease. But if they feel that badly about the situation, and they obviously do because they're sticking their noses into it, they're welcome to pay Jack's half of the rent for him for just as long as they like.
So much is falling into place now! I realize I may have been Velociraped a couple of times in the past...
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I fully disagree on this one! Jheez, the guy is giving fully his part of the bargain, if not more. Without a job paying half of all the costs. Incomewise OP is really paying shit compared to Jack. And after stealing
mine his job, going on holiday! How blunt can you put it to his face!
Yeah we know you got a stable job, but jeez when will you start to live like a human and take care of others ! Not everyone is as punctual like you.
....
...
..
.
That's just the beer stash talking... for sure
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Oh how I hate the manipulator AND the third party in the velicoraptor... I've had that done to me and nearly lost my shit on everyone involved. But hey, it didn't happen again...
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in internet land i never want you and jack to separate and i want you all to work together forever just so i can selfishly be entertained. i love this thread.
1. This thread is fantastic.
2. Props to you for managing to keep living with Jack under reasonably amicable terms for all this time. You have mad people skills (I would have tried to say something way back at the first stage of the food sharing issue and somehow it would have ended in bitterness and anger)
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The other play is one I call "the Velociraptor". It relies on triangulation (playing one person off against another). There are three people involved: the manipulator (Jack), the target (PencilThinStache), and a third party. The play differs from the cat's paw because the third party doesn't take risks or come to harm; the only goals are to isolate the target from the community and to apply pressure on the target to act in the manipulator's interests.
Grim - you are a riot and I would love to take you out for beers sometime. You have code names for these? Are you going to write a book or 'how do deal with sucky people' manual?
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From age 25-27 I had two guys that would drop in at my place every single Friday and Saturday night. We'd have a few beers, go out to the bar, then back to my place. The party would be over and they'd go home when my fridge was empty of alcohol. It actually took me a long time to clue in, "Neither of them has ever brought shit--they just drink my beer, listen to music, and leave when it's gone. Sure, I have the good job but they've drank at least $4000 of my beer." I think I didn't get it because I'd finally just gotten a decent salaried job so had more money than ever before in life. ...And growing up, my other (good) friends and I had always pooled our resources. I liked treating guests who came over.
But these dudes: 2 guys x 8 beers each x 2 weekend nights x 52 weekends x 2 years? Holy shitballs!!
Conversation went like this:
Me: "You should bring some beer over sometime, you know?"
Friend: "Oh, I didn't know it was an issue."
Me: "It's not, but you and Davey never bring any and it's added up over the past couple of years."
Friend: "Sure, no problem, dude--I'll bring some over this weekend."
NEVER SAW THEM AT MY PLACE AGAIN!! They never called or dropped by or anything. ...Fuckers.
Looks like you got out of that *only* $4000 in the hole. Could have been worse!
I realized something about moochers last night, why they suck, and will likely never succeed at life:
They have defective brains.
If you could get 1664 beers but then had to buy 12, why the fuck wouldn't you stick with that arrangement and milk that poor sucker even longer? That's a ratio of about 139:1. A return of something like 99% over two years? A sweeter deal could never be found. Mustachians, who understand math, would jump all over investment returns like that. Moochers, however, don't see it that way--"Fuck, I got 139 for the price of one? Well, if I have to actually pay for one beer (which I will be consuming myself anyway) then fuck this shit!!" Even if you're an ignoramus, an evil person of epic proportions, how could you be so stupid to abandon that?
I have the feeling OP's Jack will be the same. Say "No", insist he pays, and he'll be long-gone to the Yukon. ...Completely ignoring how the friendship financially landslided in his favor 90% of the time.
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From age 25-27 I had two guys that would drop in at my place every single Friday and Saturday night. We'd have a few beers, go out to the bar, then back to my place. The party would be over and they'd go home when my fridge was empty of alcohol. It actually took me a long time to clue in, "Neither of them has ever brought shit--they just drink my beer, listen to music, and leave when it's gone. Sure, I have the good job but they've drank at least $4000 of my beer." I think I didn't get it because I'd finally just gotten a decent salaried job so had more money than ever before in life. ...And growing up, my other (good) friends and I had always pooled our resources. I liked treating guests who came over.
But these dudes: 2 guys x 8 beers each x 2 weekend nights x 52 weekends x 2 years? Holy shitballs!!
Conversation went like this:
Me: "You should bring some beer over sometime, you know?"
Friend: "Oh, I didn't know it was an issue."
Me: "It's not, but you and Davey never bring any and it's added up over the past couple of years."
Friend: "Sure, no problem, dude--I'll bring some over this weekend."
NEVER SAW THEM AT MY PLACE AGAIN!! They never called or dropped by or anything. ...Fuckers.
Looks like you got out of that *only* $4000 in the hole. Could have been worse!
I realized something about moochers last night, why they suck, and will likely never succeed at life:
They have defective brains.
If you could get 1664 beers but then had to buy 12, why the fuck wouldn't you stick with that arrangement and milk that poor sucker even longer? That's a ratio of about 139:1. A return of something like 99% over two years? A sweeter deal could never be found. Mustachians, who understand math, would jump all over investment returns like that. Moochers, however, don't see it that way--"Fuck, I got 139 for the price of one? Well, if I have to actually pay for one beer (which I will be consuming myself anyway) then fuck this shit!!" Even if you're an ignoramus, an evil person of epic proportions, how could you be so stupid to abandon that?
I have the feeling OP's Jack will be the same. Say "No", insist he pays, and he'll be long-gone to the Yukon. ...Completely ignoring how the friendship financially landslided in his favor 90% of the time.
Why would you hang out with someone for that long if you didn't genuinely enjoy their company? Just for some free beer? Something seriously short circuited in their brains.
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Why would you hang out with someone for that long if you didn't genuinely enjoy their company? Just for some free beer? Something seriously short circuited in their brains.
Some people time's is worth nothing. They are completely cool being unproductive, and assume everyone else is the same. They are the same people who strike conversations in the middle of a busy hallway, or don't have their change ready in the checkout line. Wasting their and everyone else's time doesn't bother them in the slightest, they have nowhere else to be.
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Why would you hang out with someone for that long if you didn't genuinely enjoy their company? Just for some free beer? Something seriously short circuited in their brains.
Some people time's is worth nothing. They are completely cool being unproductive, and assume everyone else is the same. They are the same people who strike conversations in the middle of a busy hallway, or don't have their change ready in the checkout line. Wasting their and everyone else's time doesn't bother them in the slightest, they have nowhere else to be.
I get being unproductive and wasting time, but why hang out with someone just for free beer? Again and again and again for 2 years. All kinds of people I would hang out with for free beer, but that's because I want both of those things. Once you remove the completely free beer, I would still enjoy that person's company enough to want to hang out. If I wouldn't enjoy their company enough to still want to hang out then I probably wouldn't hang around just for free beer. Like if I was in that situation and Kaspian asked me to provide my own beer after 2 years, and I didn't like him enough to drink my own beer and hang out with him, then what the fuck was I doing for the last 2 years? Every single weekend making that decision: Should I just drop like $10 on beer and have a good time with people I actually want to hang out with, or hang out with Kaspian all weekend and drink his beer?
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Why would you hang out with someone for that long if you didn't genuinely enjoy their company? Just for some free beer? Something seriously short circuited in their brains.
Some people time's is worth nothing. They are completely cool being unproductive, and assume everyone else is the same. They are the same people who strike conversations in the middle of a busy hallway, or don't have their change ready in the checkout line. Wasting their and everyone else's time doesn't bother them in the slightest, they have nowhere else to be.
I get being unproductive and wasting time, but why hang out with someone just for free beer? Again and again and again for 2 years. All kinds of people I would hang out with for free beer, but that's because I want both of those things. Once you remove the completely free beer, I would still enjoy that person's company enough to want to hang out. If I wouldn't enjoy their company enough to still want to hang out then I probably wouldn't hang around just for free beer. Like if I was in that situation and Kaspian asked me to provide my own beer after 2 years, and I didn't like him enough to drink my own beer and hang out with him, then what the fuck was I doing for the last 2 years? Every single weekend making that decision: Should I just drop like $10 on beer and have a good time with people I actually want to hang out with, or hang out with Kaspian all weekend and drink his beer?
You're welcome over for a beer or two or six, anytime. Just not every weekend for two damn years! :D I think I just never clued into what was going on--friends had never done that to me before. I even ordered us late-night pizzas about once or twice a month. I was one of the few guys with a salaried job (only $33K at the time) so was rich beyond all our imaginations.
I think the moochers were offended that I'd asked. Hurt their pride, you know? I think the moocher mentality is that they're a prince/princess and we should all enjoy paying for their amazing company. "Fuck that guy--doesn't appreciate me! I'll go elsewhere...," instead of, "We didn't appreciate him! Let's fix this situation and then maybe we can mooch a lot more again." It's not that they didn't like hanging out with me too, it's that I'd "suddenly become an asshole".
I don't think you can fix short-sightedness. Mustachians see it every day with people spending like kings then bitching about debt.
Note Paul der Krake -> Yes, they were time wasters, cool, and completely unproductive people. Off-and-on employed at pretty shitty jobs. Usually they'd get fired for being unproductive at work.
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Why would you hang out with someone for that long if you didn't genuinely enjoy their company? Just for some free beer? Something seriously short circuited in their brains.
Some people time's is worth nothing. They are completely cool being unproductive, and assume everyone else is the same. They are the same people who strike conversations in the middle of a busy hallway, or don't have their change ready in the checkout line. Wasting their and everyone else's time doesn't bother them in the slightest, they have nowhere else to be.
I get being unproductive and wasting time, but why hang out with someone just for free beer? Again and again and again for 2 years. All kinds of people I would hang out with for free beer, but that's because I want both of those things. Once you remove the completely free beer, I would still enjoy that person's company enough to want to hang out. If I wouldn't enjoy their company enough to still want to hang out then I probably wouldn't hang around just for free beer. Like if I was in that situation and Kaspian asked me to provide my own beer after 2 years, and I didn't like him enough to drink my own beer and hang out with him, then what the fuck was I doing for the last 2 years? Every single weekend making that decision: Should I just drop like $10 on beer and have a good time with people I actually want to hang out with, or hang out with Kaspian all weekend and drink his beer?
You're welcome over for a beer or two or six, anytime. Just not every weekend for two damn years! :D I think I just never clued into what was going on--friends had never done that to me before. I even ordered us late-night pizzas about once or twice a month. I was one of the few guys with a salaried job (only $33K at the time) so was rich beyond all our imaginations.
I think the moochers were offended that I'd asked. Hurt their pride, you know? I think the moocher mentality is that they're a prince/princess and we should all enjoy paying for their amazing company. "Fuck that guy--doesn't appreciate me! I'll go elsewhere...," instead of, "We didn't appreciate him! Let's fix this situation and then maybe we can mooch a lot more again." It's not that they didn't like hanging out with me too, it's that I'd "suddenly become an asshole".
I don't think you can fix short-sightedness. Mustachians see it every day with people spending like kings then bitching about debt.
Note Paul der Krake -> Yes, they were time wasters, cool, and completely unproductive people. Off-and-on employed at pretty shitty jobs. Usually they'd get fired for being unproductive at work.
I had a similar situation with a friend. We were eating my food, smoking my pot, and drinking my liquor. So I said "hey that's not fair, why don't you provide the liquor?" and he said "yea that's fair" and we've continued to hang out for years. Hung out last night.
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Why would you hang out with someone for that long if you didn't genuinely enjoy their company? Just for some free beer? Something seriously short circuited in their brains.
Some people time's is worth nothing. They are completely cool being unproductive, and assume everyone else is the same. They are the same people who strike conversations in the middle of a busy hallway, or don't have their change ready in the checkout line. Wasting their and everyone else's time doesn't bother them in the slightest, they have nowhere else to be.
I get being unproductive and wasting time, but why hang out with someone just for free beer? Again and again and again for 2 years. All kinds of people I would hang out with for free beer, but that's because I want both of those things. Once you remove the completely free beer, I would still enjoy that person's company enough to want to hang out. If I wouldn't enjoy their company enough to still want to hang out then I probably wouldn't hang around just for free beer. Like if I was in that situation and Kaspian asked me to provide my own beer after 2 years, and I didn't like him enough to drink my own beer and hang out with him, then what the fuck was I doing for the last 2 years? Every single weekend making that decision: Should I just drop like $10 on beer and have a good time with people I actually want to hang out with, or hang out with Kaspian all weekend and drink his beer?
I think it's easy to fall into a routine. Once you're in a routine, a single change can completely shift the entire habit. It's why making a positive change in some small way can help people break out of terrible addictions such as smoking.
Also, we can't forget the powerful impact of something being free. Amazon's sales went up globally once they started offering free shipping. The one country that didn't have a significant increase in sales was in France, which charged a single frank for shipping (essentially a quarter). Amazon changed it to free shipping in France, and their sales went up dramatically.
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Why would you hang out with someone for that long if you didn't genuinely enjoy their company? Just for some free beer? Something seriously short circuited in their brains.
Some people time's is worth nothing. They are completely cool being unproductive, and assume everyone else is the same. They are the same people who strike conversations in the middle of a busy hallway, or don't have their change ready in the checkout line. Wasting their and everyone else's time doesn't bother them in the slightest, they have nowhere else to be.
I get being unproductive and wasting time, but why hang out with someone just for free beer? Again and again and again for 2 years. All kinds of people I would hang out with for free beer, but that's because I want both of those things. Once you remove the completely free beer, I would still enjoy that person's company enough to want to hang out. If I wouldn't enjoy their company enough to still want to hang out then I probably wouldn't hang around just for free beer. Like if I was in that situation and Kaspian asked me to provide my own beer after 2 years, and I didn't like him enough to drink my own beer and hang out with him, then what the fuck was I doing for the last 2 years? Every single weekend making that decision: Should I just drop like $10 on beer and have a good time with people I actually want to hang out with, or hang out with Kaspian all weekend and drink his beer?
You're welcome over for a beer or two or six, anytime. Just not every weekend for two damn years! :D I think I just never clued into what was going on--friends had never done that to me before. I even ordered us late-night pizzas about once or twice a month. I was one of the few guys with a salaried job (only $33K at the time) so was rich beyond all our imaginations.
I think the moochers were offended that I'd asked. Hurt their pride, you know? I think the moocher mentality is that they're a prince/princess and we should all enjoy paying for their amazing company. "Fuck that guy--doesn't appreciate me! I'll go elsewhere...," instead of, "We didn't appreciate him! Let's fix this situation and then maybe we can mooch a lot more again." It's not that they didn't like hanging out with me too, it's that I'd "suddenly become an asshole".
I don't think you can fix short-sightedness. Mustachians see it every day with people spending like kings then bitching about debt.
Note Paul der Krake -> Yes, they were time wasters, cool, and completely unproductive people. Off-and-on employed at pretty shitty jobs. Usually they'd get fired for being unproductive at work.
The $4000 wasn't great, but you must have wasted a lot of time on those losers too. Good riddance.
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Note Paul der Krake -> Yes, they were time wasters, cool, and completely unproductive people. Off-and-on employed at pretty shitty jobs. Usually they'd get fired for being unproductive at work.
The $4000 wasn't great, but you must have wasted a lot of time on those losers too. Good riddance.
Definitely! You know the best parts? Way more money in the bank (I finally began to travel), didn't have to clean my place as thoroughly for guests every weekend, didn't have to entertain until 4-5:00 in the morning and could go to bed when I wanted, no cleanup the next mornings (!!), I could have women over without Laurel and Hardy hanging out on my couch, and not a shit-ton of empties in my closet.
Sometimes firing a friend (or having them quit) is the best thing that can possibly happen.
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Why would you hang out with someone for that long if you didn't genuinely enjoy their company? Just for some free beer? Something seriously short circuited in their brains.
Some people time's is worth nothing. They are completely cool being unproductive, and assume everyone else is the same. They are the same people who strike conversations in the middle of a busy hallway, or don't have their change ready in the checkout line. Wasting their and everyone else's time doesn't bother them in the slightest, they have nowhere else to be.
Haven't we all worked with that person? Let them get talking and they don't stop?
DW and I both have one of those types at work - both nice people but no sense of time. We figure we need to protect those two people from ever meeting. Someone might die! They'd talk and forget to eat, sleep or go home at the end of the day! ;)
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Why would you hang out with someone for that long if you didn't genuinely enjoy their company? Just for some free beer? Something seriously short circuited in their brains.
Some people time's is worth nothing. They are completely cool being unproductive, and assume everyone else is the same. They are the same people who strike conversations in the middle of a busy hallway, or don't have their change ready in the checkout line. Wasting their and everyone else's time doesn't bother them in the slightest, they have nowhere else to be.
Haven't we all worked with that person? Let them get talking and they don't stop?
DW and I both have one of those types at work - both nice people but no sense of time. We figure we need to protect those two people from ever meeting. Someone might die! They'd talk and forget to eat, sleep or go home at the end of the day! ;)
Nope, I've seen this before. Each person confided to me later that "[Other talker] seems like a nice person, but he just won't shut up!" The lack of self-awareness is impressive.
(Edited to fix quote tags, ugh!)
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The other play is one I call "the Velociraptor". It relies on triangulation (playing one person off against another). There are three people involved: the manipulator (Jack), the target (PencilThinStache), and a third party. The play differs from the cat's paw because the third party doesn't take risks or come to harm; the only goals are to isolate the target from the community and to apply pressure on the target to act in the manipulator's interests.
Grim - you are a riot and I would love to take you out for beers sometime. You have code names for these? Are you going to write a book or 'how do deal with sucky people' manual?
No plans for that at present but I do have most of the framework together for a book on non-profit administration. There's actually a lot of how-to-deal books out on the market already.
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And very funny!
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Poor PencilThinStache... he went on vacation and left us in charge of the fuck factory, and look what happened.
Holy hell, I leave for one week and this whole thread goes completely off the rails...
Well, I'm happy to report that the drama died down on its own while I was out of town.The movie theater Jack works at is planning on making him a manager, which will give him a bit of a pay bump. Additionally, a musician friend who runs a production company is paying Jack to do tech set up/tear down at his shows. Between the two, there's enough extra income to make up for the lost unemployment. He can afford rent now, situation no longer critical.
Meanwhile, the owner at work is in the middle of divorcing his wife (who also works there). Apparently he's been asking other employees to set up hotel reservations for him and his mistress to go on vacation, which snowballed into a complete storm of craziness while I was away - Turns out that the guy I've been calling "the owner" is only the president, while his retired parents are the actual majority shareholders. I guess someone called them up to come in and restore some measure of order when shit really started hitting the fan. Perfect week to not be in the office.
Needless to say, hiring a new employee is the very last thing on anybody's mind. Jack's still expressing interest in working there eventually, but everything is such a crazy clusterfuck right now that even he can tell it's going to be a few months before a position opens (if at all).
So, for the time being... everything between me and Jack is calm and back to normal.
Knock on wood.
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Glad to hear your week away had good timing.
Movie theater manager might actually be his perfect vocation. Gets to watch all the movies he wants for free, all the popcorn and soda he can eat, and he gets to tell others to do the actual work like tearing tickets and swabbing the deck . . . it's like Jack paradise.
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Dang...
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Whoa, reading that, I just got an earworm...
"I'm just a gigolo
everywhere I go
people know the part
I'm playing"....
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/david-lee-roth/just-a-gigolo.html (http://www.lyricsdepot.com/david-lee-roth/just-a-gigolo.html)
David Lee Roth..
Not exactly the same, but how long until he wears out his current friends, and then starts looking for new "friends"..? hmmm....
ETA: A new friend is having justified financial difficulties, (sudden loss of home and jobs) but instead of pulling herself up, or taking me up on my offer to help her help herself, thinks that "God will provide" and you don't have to do anything proactive yourself, other than pray.
When she asked me for food, asking for items like frozen chicken strips (the good ones) and other pricey prepacked items and treats for her toddler...(who does NOT need them)...saying that she was worried about not having anything to eat (family of 5).... well, maybe I am miserely, but I went home, and split out in half my bulk rice, bulk potatoes, bulk sweet potatoes, onions, added a couple lbs of on sale bought ground meat, peanut butter jar, all my remaining oats, and generous amount of flour and cooking oil and some spices.. bulk apples... then added an extra cabbage and carrots, a jar of home made jam, for variety, and drove back to give it to her right away.
End of her requests for food from me, anyways.. I know she has asked others in the month(s) since, but never me again.
Awesome!
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I get that you're not an asshole, and it's OK that you aren't, but that doesn't mean you have to be the blood supply to a 200-pound mosquito.
LOL
+1
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Ok, caught up on the thread. Good work, all.
OP - consider looking for an opportunity to tell Jack "If you x" or "if you don't y", then "I'm not going to recommend you for that job at work." He can't press you if you're proactively pushing him. Plus you'll create a built-in excuse not to recommend him, ever.
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Whoa, reading that, I just got an earworm...
"I'm just a gigolo
everywhere I go
people know the part
I'm playing"....
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/david-lee-roth/just-a-gigolo.html (http://www.lyricsdepot.com/david-lee-roth/just-a-gigolo.html)
David Lee Roth..
Not exactly the same, but how long until he wears out his current friends, and then starts looking for new "friends"..? hmmm....
ETA: A new friend is having justified financial difficulties, (sudden loss of home and jobs) but instead of pulling herself up, or taking me up on my offer to help her help herself, thinks that "God will provide" and you don't have to do anything proactive yourself, other than pray.
When she asked me for food, asking for items like frozen chicken strips (the good ones) and other pricey prepacked items and treats for her toddler...(who does NOT need them)...saying that she was worried about not having anything to eat (family of 5).... well, maybe I am miserely, but I went home, and split out in half my bulk rice, bulk potatoes, bulk sweet potatoes, onions, added a couple lbs of on sale bought ground meat, peanut butter jar, all my remaining oats, and generous amount of flour and cooking oil and some spices.. bulk apples... then added an extra cabbage and carrots, a jar of home made jam, for variety, and drove back to give it to her right away.
End of her requests for food from me, anyways.. I know she has asked others in the month(s) since, but never me again.
Awesome!
Goldielock's post reminds me of one of my cousins a few years back. My dad had just retired (forced due to health) and was waiting out the few months until Social Security kicked in while living on the modest pension his union had. I was in college and he helped me during that time even though he didn't have much. My youngest cousin was living in town (19 yo) and was calling up all the extended family to ask for money to buy food. She was living just like her mother, who had had a successful nursing career before she started stealing morphine and was fired. She has lived on welfare ever since. It's all my cousin knew growing up.
So when she started hitting up my dad for money, he became visibly agitated. I was home at the time and went with him to her apartment to give her all the loose change he had (just about all the cash he had at the time) and advised her to use it to buy bread and lunch meat so she could eat for several days. He had word that she was using the good charity from other family members to go to McDonald's and other fast food places to eat junk. It wasn't much (less than $10) but the point was made. She never asked my dad for money again. In retrospect your idea would have been better at illustrating the point of simpler eating being cheaper and lasting longer.
To the larger discussion of this thread, I think cutting off a moocher early, giving them a dose of hard reality (the word "no"), and maintaining strength in the face of pity parties (and in some cases insults or accusations of cold hardheartedness/selfishness) are the best courses of action. Making reasonable, good faith pieces of advice is a great thing, especially if you truly care about the person, but ultimately you need to structure the relationship so their behavior doesn't impact your life. Great pieces of advice in this topic and I'm glad the OP's situation seems to be resolved...for now.
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Beware family businesses and divorces. Apparently in my home town there was a major company that had some sort of family drama/feud and they forgot to manage the business. Down the drain it went along with several hundred collateral jobs plus all the little businesses that spring up to service the big company.
One fellow I know didn't get paid for serviced rendered and another two found themselves without a job in their 50s. They both had a really hard time replacing those jobs. One did (barely) and the other didn't.
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Whoa, reading that, I just got an earworm...
"I'm just a gigolo
everywhere I go
people know the part
I'm playing"....
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/david-lee-roth/just-a-gigolo.html (http://www.lyricsdepot.com/david-lee-roth/just-a-gigolo.html)
David Lee Roth..
Not exactly the same, but how long until he wears out his current friends, and then starts looking for new "friends"..? hmmm....
Awesome!
For the last 4 days I have quite literally woken up and driven to work with this bloody song playing in my head. Until this moment, when I re-read this, I couldn't for the life of me figure out where I'd heard it that planted the seed.
Now I know. Thanks. Thanks very much.
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I get that you're not an asshole, and it's OK that you aren't, but that doesn't mean you have to be the blood supply to a 200-pound mosquito.
LOL
+1
I think that quotes like I wrote it, but I promise, I am nowhere near that funny. that is pure GS.
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Beware family businesses and divorces. Apparently in my home town there was a major company that had some sort of family drama/feud and they forgot to manage the business. Down the drain it went along with several hundred collateral jobs plus all the little businesses that spring up to service the big company.
One fellow I know didn't get paid for serviced rendered and another two found themselves without a job in their 50s. They both had a really hard time replacing those jobs. One did (barely) and the other didn't.
YES, this is absolutely true. My dad used to be a financial planner, and he had all sorts of stories about siblings who felt betrayed in a business arrangement. They ended up self-immolating with their savings, rather than letting one another see any profit.
In my own family, there's been a business that employed many family members for decades. The owner, my uncle, finally sold it to some VC shop that jettisons expenses and tries to turn it around in 5 years or so for a quick buck. Anyway, several family members, rather than formalized equity, had been receiving large salaries that were tied to company profits rather than being solid numbers. Anyway, the VC people ended that pretty fast, and a lot of people were mad. I consider it to be a big accomplishment that my two uncles are on speaking terms (and that only because of family pressure and religious convictions.)
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Why didn't he let some other family member take the helm and buy him out?
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Why didn't he let some other family member take the helm and buy him out?
He might not have had any offers. It's easier to dip your cup into the well than to operate the pump.
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Why didn't he let some other family member take the helm and buy him out?
He might not have had any offers. It's easier to dip your cup into the well than to operate the pump.
Lol, as always a very quote-able addition, GS.
First of all, he's very secretive about money, so selling within the family would've meant sharing info about his net worth. However, having said that, I think it was probably a couple tens of millions, and no one else has that kind of money sitting around. You may have been picturing something smaller.
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I was picturing something smaller.
Also I was picturing a situation where they buy him out and pay him back with earnings from the company. Silent-partner style.
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Resurrecting this thread to say thanks, guys. :)
My SIL started her Standard Manipulative Bullshit, predictably on schedule (she claims it's 'her depression', I say that if I can predict 2 months earlier the exact date and method in which she's gonna act out I have doubts... seriously, I put it in the calendar in late July. I was off by 1 day).
She did it again last night. I spent the conversation basically telling myself to corral my fucks and not set them loose, and wound up escaping the conversation in about 1/3 of the time we'd have usually been stuck there listening to the sniveling, having made it clear that NO, she can't live with us/involve us in her drama with her parents/borrow money, because I am not a universal sucker and this is Not My Problem in a fairly epic way.
The Money Mustache Forums: where you learn how to stop giving a fuck. ;)
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Resurrecting this thread to say thanks, guys. :)
My SIL started her Standard Manipulative Bullshit, predictably on schedule (she claims it's 'her depression', I say that if I can predict 2 months earlier the exact date and method in which she's gonna act out I have doubts... seriously, I put it in the calendar in late July. I was off by 1 day).
She did it again last night. I spent the conversation basically telling myself to corral my fucks and not set them loose, and wound up escaping the conversation in about 1/3 of the time we'd have usually been stuck there listening to the sniveling, having made it clear that NO, she can't live with us/involve us in her drama with her parents/borrow money, because I am not a universal sucker and this is Not My Problem in a fairly epic way.
The Money Mustache Forums: where you learn how to stop giving a fuck. ;)
Good on you!!!!
Have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion on crappy roommates and manipulative asshairs!
I had the total opposite problem to the OP's potential issue: shared a 5 bedroom house with 4 other women and 5 dogs. Not a problem, in fact the woman next door said we were the best renters that had ever lived there. However, a couple months before the lease was due to renew, the landlord sent a contract offering not to raise the rent if we renewed a couple months ahead. One roommate signed the contract and sent it back that she'd like to renew. She didn't include anyone else who lived there, just assumed for some reason that we'd all keep living there. Oops. Everyone else, including me, had other plans. I had been out of town when all of this occurred and didn't even know about it, but suddenly we were all the bad guys for not wanting to continue, and we were supposed to find her some roommates etc. I told her that I had signed nothing, I hadn't even seen the document, and she never asked me my plans for lease renewal. She *freaked out* because she didn't have enough income to cover the full rent. My thought was, well why did you sign the lease solo, then? She was 40ish years old and I was in my 20s...why do I understand leases better than someone with 15+ more years of experience? And why would she want her soon-to-be-former roommates to pick the upcoming roommates? I could give a rat's ass who she lived with and I certainly wouldn't want anyone else picking who I live with! I think she did find roommates before everyone moved out but WTF. I wound up living with one of the other women in a better (for us) location, and am still friends with her to this day.
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I'M BACK, Y'ALL!
Motherfucker.
Gosh, I don't think I've even logged in here for the last 6 months, and my last update to this thread was back in July. All kinds of new and exciting things have been happening since then. I'll skip that stuff, though, and bring you up to speed on Jack:
So the last time I updated, Jack had picked up a side job to replace his lost unemployment check, and was looking at a potential promotion at the movie theater. Long story short, promotion never went through, and after our friend with the production company dealt with Jack's shitty work ethic for a couple weeks, he stopped getting hired for those gigs.
Meanwhile, I got a whole slew of new responsibilities at work, one of which includes managing a handful people who work on a "per-job" basis. They aren't employees, it's small, outsourced work that we just don't want to handle in-house due to the sheer volume of it. Pays $10-$15 per job, they do the work at home and send it back to me, the people I give the heaviest loads to are maxing out at maybe $400 a month. Not enough to live on, but not bad side income if you have a little free time and the right skill set. Jack happened to have tons of free time and a background in that skill set. I figured that since he wouldn't technically be an employee, the work was low priority, and he'd only be reporting to me... Screw it. I'd just gotten rid of two workers that weren't very good, needed the slack picked up, so gave him a shot.
Surprise, surprise, this isn't where the story goes south. It actually worked pretty well. Jack was desperate for cash, good at the work, and had a faster turnaround time than most of my other people. I was trying to chew through a mountain-sized backlog that my predecessor hadn't managed well, so plenty of work to throw at Jack whenever he asked for more. It wasn't huge money, but it was perfect work for a lazy stoner and enough to bridge his financial gap. Life was good for a few months.
We're sitting there at the beginning of 2017, things are pretty much chugging along smoothly. I'm looking at houses in the area, because I've been weighing the whole live-in landlord thing for a few years. Gotta boost the income and get back on track for FIRE, right? Jack's been fairly stable for ~6 months, occasionally it takes him a few weeks to pay me for his half of the electric bill or something, but nothing worth getting upset over.
"Damn, PencilThinStash, this is pretty boring," you're probably thinking. "I came here to see you rant about Jack, and so far you're not giving me anything." Hang on a little, I'm getting there.
I find a 3 bedroom fixer-upper with decent bones, less than half a mile from work. Old, awkward little house (1937), but loads of potential if I'm willing to put in the work. Buy it for $88k. 20% down on a 15 year mortgage, good rate, held back a good chunk of cash for repairs and such. Had about 2 months left on the apartment lease, plenty of time to throw myself into starting renovations before I had to move in. Jack agreed to move in too and pay me the $450/month he was paying at the apartment - Like I said, he's been fairly stable for a few months and rent's always gotten paid. Considering my monthly mortgage payment is only $503? Score! (Obviously there are things like property taxes and homeowner's insurance on top of that $503.)
So I got to work. Tearing down unnecessary walls, pulling up ugly tile to reveal hardwood, refinishing said hardwood (it's GORGEOUS now), painting, standing in an inch of basement water for two hours one night fixing the sump pump that decided to quit on me... You get the idea. Simultaneously started directing a children's musical theater production, because I'm an idiot and think I handle Alexander Hamilton levels of superhuman productivity. Not really important to the story other than to say I spent two months running myself into the ground, working harder than I ever have before in my life. I'm usually pretty laid back, but my stress level didn't drop below a 7/10 once during that period.
As this process is starting, Jack approaches me, talking about how he wants to work on the house with me, since he'll be living there too. Cool, it's a monstrous undertaking and I could use a little help. "Yeah, dude, you can just pay me minimum wage, like $8.50 an hour, and I'll even spend full days working on it while you're at the office."
Um, what?
I'm not going to pay you to work on upgrades that will directly benefit your own living space. And just because I'm happy to pay the guy $15 on a low-priority, practically no-deadline, per-job basis at work doesn't mean I trust him to work hourly out of my own pocket. Especially without supervision. He's still a lazy stoner, and I know that if I could knock out a particular job in 5 hours, I'd walk in at the end of the workday to see it only halfway finished, with him saying, "Hey, I worked on it for 8 hours!" That battle ain't worth my time. I gave a noncommittal "Yeah, maybe..." then sort of shot down the one or two offers he made after that.
Sidenote, in case I sound like a dick here, I never EXPECTED him to do any work on the house in the first place. He brought up the idea. I'm the one who took this load on my shoulders, it's my responsibility. I've had a handful of other (amazing) friends volunteer to help with projects, and while everybody knows the unspoken "provide pizza & beer" rule, nobody has ever asked me for direct fucking hourly reimbursement of their time.
Then there was Easter weekend, when my parents came into town with my brother and his girlfriend, and the four of them were GODDAMN SUPERHEROES with the amount of labor they poured into that house for me. Words can't express how fucking awesome they are. The whole weekend, Jack kept saying he'd be over to help alongside them, but then never show all day until we were breaking for dinner and then he'd show up for the free meal. "Oh, yeah, I tried texting PencilThinStash earlier, but he didn't respond and I wasn't sure where you guys were at." ......You mean between the hours of 9am and 7pm? When we said we'd be working at the house all day? You weren't sure where we were because my phone was off? But you knew where to come as soon as dinner rolled around and you were ready to mooch? Fuck off.
I wouldn't have even included that last paragraph in this whole story, except that my brother called me a few days later, laughing. Apparently he and Jack had stayed up talking one night after I'd gone to bed, and Jack was concerned that my family thinks he's lazy. "No, BrotherStash, I WANTED to be over there helping you guys on the house this weekend, but I know that PencilThinStash wants to tackle this thing himself. I'd totally be there, but I'm trying to respect that it's his project."
Holy hell, no, I just don't want to pay you for half-assed labor.
So everything to this point, while annoying, is really kind of dumb and not that big of a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I probably blew it out of proportion because, well, like I said earlier: renovations, theater commitments, starting to move into the house, full time job, volunteering at church... I overextended myself and started to snap from the strain. That's my fault for overestimating my own capabilities.
The real fun started when we actually moved in at the beginning of this month. I'd read a few books on being a landlord and drawn up a standard month-to-month agreement. Went over it with Jack point by point, made a few changes at his suggestion, then had it all ready to sign on the 1st. He'd just started a new job that paid $13/hour instead of the minimum wage he's been making for the last year, so we're in the clear, right?
So we both sign the agreement, which says he'll pay me on the first of the month. Standard "7 days to pay, otherwise $25 late fee, either of us can end the arrangement with 30 days notice" type of verbiage included. As he's handing it back to me, he says, "By the way, I'm not going to be able to pay you until the 25th this month."
Excuse me?
"Yeah, with this new job, I won't get my first paycheck until the 25th. I don't even have enough money to buy more food until then, that's why I've been so stressed over the last week."
WTF. What would he be doing if we were still at the apartment? I've gotten used to floating the guy a couple bucks here and there, but on top of what he already owed me, now it's close to $500. Thankfully I'm pretty liquid right now and it's not a massive financial strain, but come the fuck on. You know about this for over a week and don't tell me until the moment I ask you to pay? That's fucking sketchy.
Not 3 days later, I get a call from him that he got hit by a drunk driver. Thankfully he's alright, and the other guy's insurance has taken full responsibility, but there's a chance the car is totaled, and depending on how they determine value and payout... Well, that's up in the air for the time being. No point speculating.
I'm trying to be gracious, told him I'd waive the late fee for May/June. I get that paycheck schedules get screwy when you start a new job, I don't want to kick someone when they're down from a car accident... but this whole thing is clearly a shift from our roommates arrangement, and new boundaries are getting set as landlord/tenant. I just need to make sure I don't get screwed over in this thing as we're figuring out what the new normal is.
Anyways, sorry about the length for what probably wasn't the most exciting update. I'm sensing some drama on the horizon, though. Stay tuned.
In other news: the show is done, I'm all moved in, have time for a social life again, love the house, starting to see a pretty girl who seems pretty cool... Overall life's great. Except for this damn situation with Jack.
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I'm so glad you're back. I'm so sorry Jack is still around though. I'm sure other people will have actual input, but I just want to applaud you on moving into a duplex! Woo!
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Dude.
Whyyyyyyyyy? You had the perfect out to dump this loser out of your life forever more.
You knew that he is a lazy, self-absorbed lying mooch. It wasn't a question of if, but when he'd relapse.
You had a chance to say "hey, Jack, I'm buying a house and as of the X month/day, I'll be vacating the shared apartment and you'll need to figure your shit out. It's been something."
Letting him move into your new place? Even with the contract, you're screwing yourself over because he likely won't vacate if you tell him to, and you'll have to evict him, and I'd be shocked if he didn't try to steal stuff or otherwise fuck you over if you end up going down that path.
So sad about this because otherwise you'd being doing really really great. You must have a need to enable this jerk or feel the need to self sabotage your progress somehow. :(
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Congrats on the house, it sounds great, but why did you consciously and knowingly invite drama into your life? Most likely you are going to have to have more drama to evict this drama from what could have been a drama-free home.
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Dude, I feel like you enjoy having drama in your house. If you do, that is your right of course, but I can't imagine living with such a problem. I run a business and have a lot of other stressors in my life, I love that my roommate (knock on wood) hasn't been one of them. The main stress that he gives me is mainly that he has an eye for detail and will point out things that need to fixing before they break, and that actually saves me a ton of stress.
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Admit it, you enjoy the drama. It's like crack.
It's okay to admit it. We'll understand. He's your version of television. You pay money for the glorious feeling of being ticked off.
I say we'll understand, but that is contingent upon your continued updates of drama! If you don't provide us with stories for our amusement, we will turn on you.
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I know, y'all, I know. I'm an idiot.
Like I said, things had been good between us for 6+ months when I bought the house. No drama, minimal mooching (off me anyways), nothing to complain about, got along just fine, hence my lack of updating in this thread. I was the only one with a mailbox key at the apartment, so I would have seen a notice if rent had ever been late, and it never was. I assumed everything was solid and we'd just keep on trucking along.
I am not a smart man.
Admit it, you enjoy the drama. It's like crack.
It's okay to admit it. We'll understand. He's your version of television. You pay money for the glorious feeling of being ticked off.
Hahaha you may be on to something. Although it's not so much the drama I get a kick out of, it's the fact that I have some narcissistic tendencies and enjoy feeling superior to other people (one of MANY character flaws, I'm trying to work on it). It's incredibly easy to feel superior to Jack.
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I should clarify that I'm not hoping you evict your roommate as your posts are very entertaining.
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I only discovered this thread today and I definitely laughed out loud.
Pencil, Pencil, Pencil......congrats on buying your own place but boy you gotta dump that 200lb mosquito!
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I only discovered this thread today and I definitely laughed out loud.
*Theatrical bow with an annoying amount of extra flourish*
I just went back and reread everything I've put in this thread... I should point out, for anyone who remembers the first post from a year ago: The friend whose stepdad was getting ready to "make millions every week" has, shockingly enough, NOT started pulling in that level of money, nor has he gifted Jack $100k yet.
Just in case anybody was wondering.
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I'M BACK, Y'ALL!
Motherfucker.
You realize you've actually corrected the fucked-up situation, right? Jack isn't trying to be your buddy and you don't want him to. This is how a beta male behaves when encountering the alpha's buddies. He does not try to demonstrate buddy behavior and part of the reason is because you've just spent several months beating it out of him.
Requesting payment in exchange for services was 100% appropriate for Jack to do and there's absolutely no reason he should offer to do it for free. He's your tenant, not your friend. The absolute last thing you need as a landlord is for Jack to "help" with repairs in an unpaid capacity because he could later use that as grounds for rent abatement. Having your family members and friends come over is a totally separate case because those are your social peers and it's fully acceptable for them to work in exchange for beer and pizza. Friends help friends, and there's a sense of communal contribution to the results because reciprocity is strongly implied. Jack isn't part of that dynamic and he never will be, because he's a deer tick. It's actually better and more socially appropriate for him to skive off on those occasions.
All you need to do now is get Jack caught up on the rent. You may wish to set up a formal barter agreement given that you've got more than enough work to go around and don't really need the dough. Just make it by-the-task instead of by-the-hour.
It's actually right and appropriate for you to pay Jack to work on and upgrade the house even though it directly benefits him. Just make sure that the work you pay him to do is in the yard, the kitchen, or other common areas. Continue to treat him as an employee, not a household member, unless of course you want him to decide (again) that it IS his home and that he IS entitled to a fair share of all your food and booze.
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I'M BACK, Y'ALL!
Motherfucker.
You realize you've actually corrected the fucked-up situation, right? Jack isn't trying to be your buddy and you don't want him to. This is how a beta male behaves when encountering the alpha's buddies. He does not try to demonstrate buddy behavior and part of the reason is because you've just spent several months beating it out of him.
Requesting payment in exchange for services was 100% appropriate for Jack to do and there's absolutely no reason he should offer to do it for free. He's your tenant, not your friend. The absolute last thing you need as a landlord is for Jack to "help" with repairs in an unpaid capacity because he could later use that as grounds for rent abatement. Having your family members and friends come over is a totally separate case because those are your social peers and it's fully acceptable for them to work in exchange for beer and pizza. Friends help friends, and there's a sense of communal contribution to the results because reciprocity is strongly implied. Jack isn't part of that dynamic and he never will be, because he's a deer tick. It's actually better and more socially appropriate for him to skive off on those occasions.
All you need to do now is get Jack caught up on the rent. You may wish to set up a formal barter agreement given that you've got more than enough work to go around and don't really need the dough. Just make it by-the-task instead of by-the-hour.
It's actually right and appropriate for you to pay Jack to work on and upgrade the house even though it directly benefits him. Just make sure that the work you pay him to do is in the yard, the kitchen, or other common areas. Continue to treat him as an employee, not a household member, unless of course you want him to decide (again) that it IS his home and that he IS entitled to a fair share of all your food and booze.
HAHAHAHAHA!
Oh, Grim, I didn't realize how much I missed you. Hope life's treating you well, my wise internet-stranger friend.
That is, as always, exactly what I needed to hear to put all of this into perspective. It's a fucked-up goddamn shame that I can't just treat the guy like a normal friend. I naturally sort of default to doing it after so many years of knowing him, but you're right. As much as I like the guy, aside from the financial/mooching horseshit, that horseshit itself necessitates that I have to hold him at arm's length. I only really get burned/upset when I forget that and start to act like he's another average buddy, or expect normal behavior out of him. Fuck, I figured this out a year ago:
I started to get a little mad, until I had a semi-zen moment and realized... this is who he is. This is what he does. Some things just ARE.
Birds fly. Fish swim. The Dude abides. Jack mooches.
It's the same song, same dance. Nothing's fucking changed here except the location.
I was against the idea of having him work off the money he owed me, but... Ah, damn you. In a weird, twisted way, that's one hell of an argument.
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Dude.
Whyyyyyyyyy? You had the perfect out to dump this loser out of your life forever more.
You knew that he is a lazy, self-absorbed lying mooch. It wasn't a question of if, but when he'd relapse.
You had a chance to say "hey, Jack, I'm buying a house and as of the X month/day, I'll be vacating the shared apartment and you'll need to figure your shit out. It's been something."
Letting him move into your new place? Even with the contract, you're screwing yourself over because he likely won't vacate if you tell him to, and you'll have to evict him, and I'd be shocked if he didn't try to steal stuff or otherwise fuck you over if you end up going down that path.
So sad about this because otherwise you'd being doing really really great. You must have a need to enable this jerk or feel the need to self sabotage your progress somehow. :(
^^^^^+1
You already knew Jack was a loser, but yet you invited him to move into your new place anyway. WTF?
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Yeah, I don't think the revival of this thread will go the way you hoped. If you have juicy tales about Jack -- well, it's hard to be sympathetic when you obviously determined that the entertainment and ego-boost of having him around was worth the drama. It would be amazing to hear how his life has turned around and he circumvented expectations, but we'd still interpret that skeptically and wait for the relapse.
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Awesome, what a joy to follow.
PTS: keep the posts coming, we need this :-)
BTW what happened to the $120 / month cable / internet etc? I'm sure you corrected that in your own house didn't you?
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PencilThinStache: Excellent. You've just proven that you can assert your alpha status and be forgiven. Continue to do this at all times and you will enjoy a good and happy life without having to actually kill the people who piss you off.
If your goal is to maintain your happy household, your next step is not actually going to be a renewal of your struggle against moocherdom. You're going to take advantage of the fact that you are now alpha. This means you do what the ancient kings did, and reward your loyal retainer for his gesture of submission. But you do not do it in a way that suggests that mooching will be rewarded. This guy wants to get somewhat wasted at your expense. Now that you know what he wants, you can control him.
Go to the liquor store when you're damn well good and ready-- not necessarily today. Purchase some of the libation that YOU like to consume, in a quantity that makes sense. This will be a different kind of optimization exercise than your usual Mustachian instincts would suggest. You're not trying to try to save money by buying in bulk. Today, you will optimize on the scale that produces a happy life for you in the long run. So, come home with a mickey, preferably something you like.
With this mickey, you begin by pouring yourself a generous drink, the better to toast your success. You may treat your newly compliant beta roommate to a shot or even a double, which you will pour for him. But maintain control of the booze, and consume every drop yourself. Do this in front of him until the entire thing is finished. In this way, you share a small portion of your bounty, and you acknowledge the continuation of a social bond between the two of you. But you do it in a way that allows you to maintain control, and like the lion who feasts first upon the freshly killed wildebeest, you share only what you wish to share.
Under no circumstances do you perform any of this suggested "splitting" activity. That implies some kind of equal division, and the alpha does not share equally. Not if he wants to stay alpha. Nor do you allow him to touch the bottle. It's your bottle and you're making it clear that you're going to finish the whole thing and satisfy your needs without taking responsibility for satisfying his. (Which is why you're not going to come home with a magnum, unless you're feeling really ambitious: THERE MUST BE NO LEFTOVERS.) The entire point is that you're going to treat yourself.
EPIC post. This is spot on.
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I seriously think I heard something on the news about Trump doing this with ice cream and pie with guests. They get one scoop and he gets two. Nobody else gets two scoops but him. WTH?
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I seriously think I heard something on the news about Trump doing this with ice cream and pie with guests. They get one scoop and he gets two. Nobody else gets two scoops but him. WTH?
It's possible. Trump understands power psychology. In fact he's a master of it. His grasp on other things is being debated elsewhere on the Net-- for good reason-- but in terms of social warfare and power psychology he's a fucking genius.
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It's a fucked-up goddamn shame that I can't just treat the guy like a normal friend. I naturally sort of default to doing it after so many years of knowing him, but you're right. As much as I like the guy, aside from the financial/mooching horseshit, that horseshit itself necessitates that I have to hold him at arm's length. I only really get burned/upset when I forget that and start to act like he's another average buddy, or expect normal behavior out of him. Fuck, I figured this out a year ago:
I started to get a little mad, until I had a semi-zen moment and realized... this is who he is. This is what he does. Some things just ARE.
Birds fly. Fish swim. The Dude abides. Jack mooches.
It's the same song, same dance. Nothing's fucking changed here except the location.
I was against the idea of having him work off the money he owed me, but... Ah, damn you. In a weird, twisted way, that's one hell of an argument.
You didn't mention anyone putting a gun to your head and forcing you to offer him a rental contract, so I'm guessing it was consensual on your part. The man may become a fairly good and reliable tenant so long as you don't try to make him into a buddy (NEVER drink with him again, by the way). In the meantime, he's pushing the limits to see what you'll do.
Enforce the contract, and don't be a dick about it, but make sure you get paid one way or another. At no point should you offer to let him work off all his rent (you'll get ripped off) but make sure you get your fair due because there will be no rescue. For landlords, there's no such thing as a god. No golden chariot will come thundering out of the sky to whisk away the post-sharknado mess if for some reason you fail to get what's yours. It's not the tenant's job to hold up your end of the agreement (which involves enforcing consequences if the tenant doesn't hold up his). Know your role. Work your role. This (slipping into Hyman Roth mode here) is the business we've chosen.
The landlord/tenant relationship is an inherently power-unbalanced social dyad in which the landlord is the alpha. Like it or not you're in charge. So turn up the tango music (preferably one of the really violent songs about epic knife fights), squeeze your ass into a pair of toreador pants, and take the lead already.
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*snip* So turn up the tango music (preferably one of the really violent songs about epic knife fights), squeeze your ass into a pair of toreador pants, and take the lead already.
Though the tone isn't quite right, I enjoy "Bust Your Knee Caps" by Pomplamoose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlDGFrP4NgI).
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ummm ?
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ummm ?
You know, Sigmund Freud would have had a field day with tango music, because of all the knife fight references.
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^You're killing me, Squeak, killing me.
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hahahahahhahahhahahha
Everyone knows a Jack.
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I love this thread and am so glad there was an update.
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Hm, I suppose I should update again...
Well, let's just say that I'm 100% convinced that there is a god, and He fucking LOVES Jack.
Jack's car that got hit by the drunk driver was totaled - but the other guy's insurance did that little "pay more than it's worth so you don't sue" deal and paid him ~$6500 for a car that was probably worth $3k. Jack used his insurance check to get a replacement car for around $4k and then squared up with me with the remaining money, even getting his June rent in a few days early.
On top of that, apparently his new job is a great fit and he's hitting all his sales quotas. If that keeps up, with commission he'll be making roughly $50-60k/year, instead of the <$20k he's been making at the movie theater for the last 2 years.
To be completely honest, it's a bit of a weird blow to my ego to be making less than him when I feel like I'm the one who's made all the responsible, non-mooching decisions over the years... but eh, that's just my own stupid insecurity wrestling with the fact that I probably don't live up to my full potential when it comes to career and income. I'll get over it. This thread isn't the place for that nonsense.
So life is stable and boring again... but I'll share one fun detail from a couple weeks ago to make this update worth your time:
We sat down and had a discussion about how I needed more of a heads up in the future if he wasn't able to make rent on time, and I flat out told him that the way he handled it at the beginning of May felt sketchy to me. According to him, he'd told me several weeks ahead of time when I was drunk... considering how busy I was during those weeks and how I didn't have time in my schedule to drink heavily, I'm not sure when that would have been, but whatever. New ground rules set that any time we discuss something serious while drunk, we're having a follow up conversation sober to make sure we're both on the same page. That feels like common sense to me, not sure why I had to come out and specifically make it an official thing... but I've been sober for a few weeks anyways (unrelated reasons), so it hasn't been applicable yet.
It was a long, heated, come-to-Jesus conversation that covered several other topics, including the overall mooching, and I had to chuckle at one point in the height of the argument when he turned to me and said, "Look, if you think that I've ever been a mooch, well I don't agree and I'll move out right now. Rich Friend is buying a house and has said that I'm welcome to move in with him rent-free. I have an option to live for free, and I stay here because I like living with you, but if you think I'm a mooch then I don't feel welcome and I'm out of here."
If you think I'm a mooch, I'm not, and I'll go live with Rich Friend rent-free to prove it.
Irony so delicious you can practically taste it.
Anyways, argument settled down and he didn't move out - I can already hear some of you screaming, "WHY DIDN'T YOU KICK THE BUM OUT, YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE, YOUR PERFECT FUCKING SHOT AND ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS TAKE IT!!!"
Yeah, I know, I know, I'm a masochistic dumbass. Unfortunately, I don't have another renter lined up for my third bedroom yet (need to finish getting my second bathroom installed first) and I'm a greedy asshole who wants to keep the extra income rolling in, small as it is.
Like I said, the situation is stable and drama-free for now... But I'm sure I'll be back with more stories eventually.
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I can already hear some of you screaming, "WHY DIDN'T YOU KICK THE BUM OUT, YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE, YOUR PERFECT FUCKING SHOT AND ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS TAKE IT!!!"
Argh! You beat me to it.
p.s. Thanks for the update. Keep 'em coming.
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Mostly posting to follow, but I love that right now YOU are the Rich Friend he's living with... not rent-free but it appears he's slowly working on that..
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If you think I'm a mooch, I'm not, and I'll go live with Rich Friend rent-free to prove it.
Irony so delicious you can practically taste it.
Anyways, argument settled down and he didn't move out - I can already hear some of you screaming, "WHY DIDN'T YOU KICK THE BUM OUT, YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE, YOUR PERFECT FUCKING SHOT AND ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS TAKE IT!!!"
Yeah, I'm still going to say it. The irony is you have now had multiple opportunities to separate yourself from Jack if you really felt he was not a good roommate, yet continue to choose to live with him because you feel either he ISN'T a big enough mooch to be unprofitable OR you just enjoy the drama.
So, Jack's right: IF you REALLY thought he was 100% mooch you wouldn't keep him around.
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Twist: PencilStash and Jack are the same person, he's been reporting his own conversations to us this entire time.
Cue final scene of fight club.
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Paul der Krake, pretty sure you're right:
PencilThinStash = Jack = Tyler Durden
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Hey OP, welcome to Chicago! Is your roomie Catholic? Let's introduce him to my roommate. I'll be happy if someone else dealt with her not cleaning. :)
Seriously though, move out. And he really isn't your friend.
Haha as a Catholic too funny! That said is it a Catholic thing? I don't think it would be.
I'd hate to see what happens for this guy when he's in a relationship.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Hm, I suppose I should update again...
Well, let's just say that I'm 100% convinced that there is a god, and He fucking LOVES Jack.
Jack's car that got hit by the drunk driver was totaled - but the other guy's insurance did that little "pay more than it's worth so you don't sue" deal and paid him ~$6500 for a car that was probably worth $3k. Jack used his insurance check to get a replacement car for around $4k and then squared up with me with the remaining money, even getting his June rent in a few days early.
On top of that, apparently his new job is a great fit and he's hitting all his sales quotas. If that keeps up, with commission he'll be making roughly $50-60k/year, instead of the <$20k he's been making at the movie theater for the last 2 years.
To be completely honest, it's a bit of a weird blow to my ego to be making less than him when I feel like I'm the one who's made all the responsible, non-mooching decisions over the years... but eh, that's just my own stupid insecurity wrestling with the fact that I probably don't live up to my full potential when it comes to career and income. I'll get over it. This thread isn't the place for that nonsense.
So life is stable and boring again... but I'll share one fun detail from a couple weeks ago to make this update worth your time:
We sat down and had a discussion about how I needed more of a heads up in the future if he wasn't able to make rent on time, and I flat out told him that the way he handled it at the beginning of May felt sketchy to me. According to him, he'd told me several weeks ahead of time when I was drunk... considering how busy I was during those weeks and how I didn't have time in my schedule to drink heavily, I'm not sure when that would have been, but whatever. New ground rules set that any time we discuss something serious while drunk, we're having a follow up conversation sober to make sure we're both on the same page. That feels like common sense to me, not sure why I had to come out and specifically make it an official thing... but I've been sober for a few weeks anyways (unrelated reasons), so it hasn't been applicable yet.
It was a long, heated, come-to-Jesus conversation that covered several other topics, including the overall mooching, and I had to chuckle at one point in the height of the argument when he turned to me and said, "Look, if you think that I've ever been a mooch, well I don't agree and I'll move out right now. Rich Friend is buying a house and has said that I'm welcome to move in with him rent-free. I have an option to live for free, and I stay here because I like living with you, but if you think I'm a mooch then I don't feel welcome and I'm out of here."
If you think I'm a mooch, I'm not, and I'll go live with Rich Friend rent-free to prove it.
Irony so delicious you can practically taste it.
Anyways, argument settled down and he didn't move out - I can already hear some of you screaming, "WHY DIDN'T YOU KICK THE BUM OUT, YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE, YOUR PERFECT FUCKING SHOT AND ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS TAKE IT!!!"
Yeah, I know, I know, I'm a masochistic dumbass. Unfortunately, I don't have another renter lined up for my third bedroom yet (need to finish getting my second bathroom installed first) and I'm a greedy asshole who wants to keep the extra income rolling in, small as it is.
Like I said, the situation is stable and drama-free for now... But I'm sure I'll be back with more stories eventually.
A good tenant is like a cash cow. Keep her well fed and mooing, and you'll be able to get the milk for, well, the opportunity cost of renting the room to someone else.
Sorry for the mangled analogy but I'm back from vacation and practically mainlining vodka. The worst part is that I still have to cruise over to my blog and try to write something pithy when I'm too drunk to type.
ETA: It looks like Jack really does have a "sales personality" and his current job could be an outstanding fit for him, which works out to continued profit for you... if you don't fuck it up.
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Pencil, at some point you're going to have to stop calling Jack a mooch. If he's paying rent reliably to you, he's not mooching off you. If he pays his rent reliably and you keep calling him a mooch, either he's going to get pissed and leave, or he's going to stop paying rent.
Sure he's got a history of mooching when he can get away with it, but if you're not letting him get away with it, then he's not mooching any more.
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Pencil, at some point you're going to have to stop calling Jack a mooch. If he's paying rent reliably to you, he's not mooching off you. If he pays his rent reliably and you keep calling him a mooch, either he's going to get pissed and leave, or he's going to stop paying rent.
Sure he's got a history of mooching when he can get away with it, but if you're not letting him get away with it, then he's not mooching any more.
Once a moocher, always a source of entertainment. That's this thread's motto, right?
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"Dude, I don't get why you worry about this stuff. Just do what I do and surround yourself with people who will take care of you when the time comes."
You've heard this before: If you spend enough time with them, people will tell you the truth about themselves. It's up to you to listen.
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I came in expecting to post that you should suck it up.
I am leaving with this, "MOVE OUT!"
You need to surround yourself with better people.
My wife is a spendy pants x 1000 but she never asks me for money and expects nothing from me. She expects nothing from others as well. She will work hard to achieve what it is that she wants.
Find a new roommate ... Maybe if you do not have a personal relationship then none of them, "we are bros" ideals will be there. It will be more black and white with expectations