Author Topic: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do  (Read 38882 times)

Smokystache

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2016, 08:44:16 PM »
I briefly dated a guy who used to be a car salesman.  I forget the conversation, but I was talking about the total cost of a car purchase.  He said no one cared about the cost, only the monthly payments.  In the 2 years he sold cars no one ever negotiated for the final price.


There was an Edmunds writer a few years ago who worked at several dealerships undercover and reported back that all the salesmen were trained specifically to only talk about the monthly payments and redirect the buyer from any other figures.

Interesting. It appears that Edmunds has taken down that story and redirected the link to something much less comprehensive. This blog has the original article as a pdf. I found it to be very interesting and required it when I taught a college personal finance class:

http://www.dougsrepublic.com/PDF/carsalesman.pdf

craiglepaige

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2016, 09:33:07 AM »
Man this is all so true... Ive worked in the automotive industry for over 12yrs and being around some of these peoples is horrible.

It's ALL about making  a profit, in every way possible. The people with any morals usually don't last long and it's inevitable that they'll be replace with a crook/thief.

I work in the service side of things and there have been many times that I've handwritten on the back of the RO's that "I don't/didn't recommend this repair" or something of the sort.  I have gotten into it with a few service advisors/techs because they were selling stuff the vehicle didnt need and I was against it. So they end up giving the car to a shit technician who only cares about hours and doesn't give two fucks about morals or honesty.

Its funny because they only last a few years and the customers quickly realize their bs, so they jump from store to store. I've a good amount of return customers who ask for me by name and will work around my schedule. Funny how honesty works in your favor.

I hate this industry but I truly enjoy fixing cars and the positive impact a good relationship with the owners can be/is.

One day I'll open my own shop... Sigh...
-The conqueror will always become a slave to his conquest.
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honeybbq

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2016, 11:05:58 AM »
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.

The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.

So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.

Unbelievable.

I would have ran out of that place like the building was on fire.

JAYSLOL

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2016, 11:30:37 AM »
I think I posted this story already some time ago, but speaking of dealer financing I went into my local Toyota dealer sometime last year because I spotted a freshly traded in 2013 Matrix (was dirty and didn't have dealer signs in the windows, but also no licence plates = just traded in).  Salesman said they wanted $17k which was WAY too much for it, like $5 or $6k too much.  So the salesman asked if i paid cash or financed the 06 Hyundai i drove up in, i told him i paid cash.  He asked if i planned to pay cash or finance the Matrix, i said "at $17k? neither." and walked away.  During the conversation with the salesman we ended up walking into the showroom, and as I left the two trucks inside caught my eye.  One was a Tacoma, that had 2 brand new dirtbikes in the back, and one was a Tundra that had a new kayak on the roof and 2 new high-end mountain bikes on a trailer hitch.  All of the toys had signs on them saying "INCLUDE WITH YOUR FINANCING!!!).  Yeah right. 

imbros

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2016, 01:36:10 PM »
Man this is all so true... Ive worked in the automotive industry for over 12yrs and being around some of these peoples is horrible.

It's ALL about making  a profit, in every way possible. The people with any morals usually don't last long and it's inevitable that they'll be replace with a crook/thief.

I work in the service side of things and there have been many times that I've handwritten on the back of the RO's that "I don't/didn't recommend this repair" or something of the sort.  I have gotten into it with a few service advisors/techs because they were selling stuff the vehicle didnt need and I was against it. So they end up giving the car to a shit technician who only cares about hours and doesn't give two fucks about morals or honesty.

Its funny because they only last a few years and the customers quickly realize their bs, so they jump from store to store. I've a good amount of return customers who ask for me by name and will work around my schedule. Funny how honesty works in your favor.

I hate this industry but I truly enjoy fixing cars and the positive impact a good relationship with the owners can be/is.

One day I'll open my own shop... Sigh...

Let me know if you need capital and/or a partner. I'm semi-serious. :)

JLee

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2016, 02:28:21 PM »
3. Sales in December increase because "People want to clear out their bank accounts by the end of the year so they don't take a tax hit".
W. T. F. ?!? I can't even wrap my head around this statement, and TWO different sales associates said this to me.
Oh, sure -- excellent advice.  Similarly, you should keep a mortgage for the tax break! 

Thing is, some people don't know any better.  Others are looking for any excuse to allow themselves to be "talked into" buying a new car.   

But it still doesn't make sense. You DO actually get a tax break for mortgage interest.

But the government doesn't tax you on your bank balance. There is no tax hit for having money in the bank.

I don't believe those two statements are completely true.

In the US, you get a tax deduction for your home mortgage interest if you itemize your deductions.  But unless you have a REALLY expensive house or you have a lot of other deductions that, in total, are bigger than the very generous standard deduction,  you won't get any deduction for your mortgage interest.   

And private individuals won't be taxed on your bank balance by the Feds.   But if they can buy something and classify it as a business expense, they won't pay taxes on the business income that paid for that item.   It's like getting a tax rate discount on the purchase.   Of course, that only benefits them if they needed to buy the item anyway.  Otherwise they just bought something they didn't need and didn't really save money.

Also, some states have taxes on property (and I don't mean land or cars).   I don't know whether any of them tax cash in the bank.

As a single person with no kids, I've exceeded the standard deduction every year since I bought my house (in a LCOL area, no less).

Hunny156

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #56 on: December 27, 2016, 03:51:40 PM »
Sharing some of my favorite dealership anecdotes:

As a kid, watching Dad go buy cars at the dealership.  The salesperson would always ask him how much he was looking to pay, and my Dad would reply, Ten Dollars.  After a few rounds of this, they would leave him alone to look at the cars, and then he would negotiate forever, before pulling out the ad in the Pennysaver that made him come look in the first place.  He was a repeat buyer, so eventually, the salespeople would pretty much give in to whatever was remotely reasonable for them.  Dad wore them down!  :)

As a young adult, trying to buy my first used car.  The eager salesperson kept pushing me to buy a new Kia, when the brand was newly introduced in the US.  Gorgeous cars, no doubt, but I had been clear on wanting a reliable used car.  After letting him do his spiel, I asked him to show me a 10 year old Kia in good mechanical condition.  He was so annoyed, he just walked away.  I did not buy a car from this dealership.

Newly married, going shopping with another newly married couple that was pregnant and decided they wanted a minivan.  Hubby and the other couple's hubby worked at the same company, both in sales.  These type of interactions are always fun, everyone knows the tactics and what they are called.  Friends were not interested in the monthly payment, they wanted the OTD price.  Sales guy refused to provide anything other than the monthly payment and the length of the contract, so we pulled the calculator and kept showing him that his math was getting worse, not better.  At one point, my hubby was pointing out that we were the only people in the showroom on a Saturday afternoon, but they ignored where we were going with that comment.  Then the other hubby told the sales guy how much the payment needed to be, along with the length of the contract, and the sales guy balked.  Best line ever from our friend.  That's OK, you can give it to me at this price, just screw over the next guy!  We still laugh at that to this day.  Needless to say, no deals were made that day, and a few months later, the dealership was out of business.

craiglepaige

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #57 on: December 27, 2016, 04:08:18 PM »
Man this is all so true... Ive worked in the automotive industry for over 12yrs and being around some of these peoples is horrible.

It's ALL about making  a profit, in every way possible. The people with any morals usually don't last long and it's inevitable that they'll be replace with a crook/thief.

I work in the service side of things and there have been many times that I've handwritten on the back of the RO's that "I don't/didn't recommend this repair" or something of the sort.  I have gotten into it with a few service advisors/techs because they were selling stuff the vehicle didnt need and I was against it. So they end up giving the car to a shit technician who only cares about hours and doesn't give two fucks about morals or honesty.

Its funny because they only last a few years and the customers quickly realize their bs, so they jump from store to store. I've a good amount of return customers who ask for me by name and will work around my schedule. Funny how honesty works in your favor.

I hate this industry but I truly enjoy fixing cars and the positive impact a good relationship with the owners can be/is.

One day I'll open my own shop... Sigh...

Let me know if you need capital and/or a partner. I'm semi-serious. :)


I've been debating this for a while now.  I work on MINIs and there is a lack of independent shops that cater to those cars. The only issue is the low sale over the past few years, so not sure how such a specific brand can support an independent shop.

I do work on air-cooled VW's for fun, so maybe having two smaller niche markets can be a plus and can sustain a 3 bay shop.

Man that would be so sweet ;)
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Travis

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #58 on: December 27, 2016, 04:11:15 PM »
Sharing some of my favorite dealership anecdotes:

Best line ever from our friend.  That's OK, you can give it to me at this price, just screw over the next guy! 

Something like that happened when with my father years ago. I remember my parents getting a HELOC to do some home renovations and buy a new vehicle.  He walked into the dealership with a bank check for $12k.  That's what he had to spend. Not a penny more.  After what seemed a couple hours of haggling with the salesman the senior salesman/manager came up to us and said something like "I have the authority to take the difference of what you're paying and we want for the truck and add it to the price of another vehicle."  For all these years it just sounded like my dad negotiated like a boss, but your remark makes me think there was a darker side to the transaction.

With This Herring

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2016, 07:54:23 PM »
I briefly dated a guy who used to be a car salesman.  I forget the conversation, but I was talking about the total cost of a car purchase.  He said no one cared about the cost, only the monthly payments.  In the 2 years he sold cars no one ever negotiated for the final price.


There was an Edmunds writer a few years ago who worked at several dealerships undercover and reported back that all the salesmen were trained specifically to only talk about the monthly payments and redirect the buyer from any other figures.

Interesting. It appears that Edmunds has taken down that story and redirected the link to something much less comprehensive. This blog has the original article as a pdf. I found it to be very interesting and required it when I taught a college personal finance class:

http://www.dougsrepublic.com/PDF/carsalesman.pdf

I really enjoyed this article.  As an aside, this line was quite funny:
Quote
One thing I discovered was that car salesmen are easy marks for anyone selling things. That's because they are always hanging around — they're a captive audience.
Because your toaster got hacked because you tried to watch porn on your blender.

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Drifterrider

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2016, 04:27:44 AM »
I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think businesses exist to make their lives easier.  A business exist to make money for the owner.  If that were not true, none of you would be on this forum because smoke signals don't work well on the internet :)


Most people are not very smart (in general) and most people's FI-Q is low to non-existent.  For the rest of us, we take no interest loans.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2016, 06:48:10 AM »
I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think businesses exist to make their lives easier.  A business exist to make money for the owner. 

Nope, I think businesses exist solely for me to mock them.

Drifterrider

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2016, 08:06:53 AM »
I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think businesses exist to make their lives easier.  A business exist to make money for the owner. 

Nope, I think businesses exist solely for me to mock them.

In which case they won't stay in business long :)

And you will have to find something else to mock (not that there is a shortage).

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2016, 08:15:19 AM »
I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think businesses exist to make their lives easier.  A business exist to make money for the owner. 

Nope, I think businesses exist solely for me to mock them.

In which case they won't stay in business long :)

And you will have to find something else to mock (not that there is a shortage).

Oh, I fully acknowledge that in their story they exist to make money; but in my story they exist for my amusement. I mean how many people can be convinced to replace a perfectly serviceable car every year, or to pay outrageous interest to have said car now rather than next year.

The dealers will run out of fools to sell to before I run out of things to mock.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2016, 09:30:27 AM »
Someone's comment about buying a Fit for <$10 prompted me to look at our local Honda dealer's website.  I went to sort by price (as I always do)....only to find that you can't.

JLee

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2016, 09:39:35 AM »
Someone's comment about buying a Fit for <$10 prompted me to look at our local Honda dealer's website.  I went to sort by price (as I always do)....only to find that you can't.

Fortunately, there are more dealers than that one...so you can.


LiveLean

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2016, 10:21:43 AM »
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.

The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.

So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.

Unbelievable.

Actually, you can thank the Federal government for this.  Any cash transaction greater than $10k requires a volume of paperwork.  Apparently, if you have a stack of cash, you're either a drug dealer or a money launderer.  Most businesses decided they didn't want to mess with the pain of the paperwork.

I was paying by check. I didn't literally walk in with cash.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2016, 10:31:21 AM »
I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think businesses exist to make their lives easier.  A business exist to make money for the owner. 

Nope, I think businesses exist solely for me to mock them.

In which case they won't stay in business long :)

And you will have to find something else to mock (not that there is a shortage).

Oh, I fully acknowledge that in their story they exist to make money; but in my story they exist for my amusement. I mean how many people can be convinced to replace a perfectly serviceable car every year, or to pay outrageous interest to have said car now rather than next year.

The dealers will run out of fools to sell to before I run out of things to mock.
Nope. There's a sucker born every minute.
And you will never run out of fools or dealers to mock.
The world is full of everlasting bastards.
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MilesTeg

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2016, 12:45:40 PM »
I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think businesses exist to make their lives easier.  A business exist to make money for the owner.  If that were not true, none of you would be on this forum because smoke signals don't work well on the internet :)


Most people are not very smart (in general) and most people's FI-Q is low to non-existent.  For the rest of us, we take no interest loans.

There is a difference between existing to make money, and in ripping people off. The only reason car dealerships are not given a smack down for their illicit practices is because they have an inordinate amount of political sway given that car dealerships are often the largest, most profitable businesses in a community and dealerships as a whole are often a heavyweight at the state level (and thus can afford the bribes that get them their way). It's why, for example, it is still law that you can't buy a car directly from a car manufacturer despite that once reasonable idea no longer being anything but a way to provide useless middlemen (dealerships for new cars) with something to do.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2016, 12:53:45 PM »
84 MONTH FINANCING ON NEW CARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

radio add says 200 bucks a month on a new car for 84 MONTHS

 this is just insane how long til you are actually ahead money in the car.  its the big short only not as much money in the game as the mortgage bubble.  but i feel a car bubble coming. and i'll be there to scoop up a good deal on the large used inventory
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MilesTeg

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2016, 12:55:56 PM »
Sales guy refused to provide anything other than the monthly payment and the length of the contract

Sadly this deceptive practice is present pretty much anywhere where most purchases are financed. We just bought a new construction home a few months ago and when we got to the price negotiation part the sales-droid started talking about how the amount we were trying to negotiate down was "only XX dollars a month!" with the implication that we were in some way "wrong" for trying to get the price down.

When the guy did that we informed him that we were "actual price sort of folks and can't sign at the price you are asking" and walked out. A couple days later he calls up and offers us what we asked for. Standard negotiation stuff really, but I was amazed when he actually apologized for trying to "talk payment". I damn near hit the floor. I can only assume he got reprimanded for almost costing the deal. Not sure if the guy had a care sales background or if this practice is now common in new home sales.

dogboyslim

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2016, 01:49:31 PM »
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.

The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.

So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.

Unbelievable.
Actually, you can thank the Federal government for this.  Any cash transaction greater than $10k requires a volume of paperwork.  Apparently, if you have a stack of cash, you're either a drug dealer or a money launderer.  Most businesses decided they didn't want to mess with the pain of the paperwork.
This is true only of currency transactions.  If "cash" is a check, then the 10k limit doesn't apply.  This is a case of the dealership not understanding the difference between cash equivalents (a check) and currency transactions.


ETA: I typed in the wrong spot looking like my reply was Spork's comment.  Fixed.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 02:02:04 PM by dogboyslim »

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2016, 02:07:33 PM »
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.

The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.

So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.

Unbelievable.

This is true only of currency transactions.  If "cash" is a check, then the 10k limit doesn't apply.  This is a case of the dealership not understanding the difference between cash equivalents (a check) and currency transactions.

Actually, you can thank the Federal government for this.  Any cash transaction greater than $10k requires a volume of paperwork.  Apparently, if you have a stack of cash, you're either a drug dealer or a money launderer.  Most businesses decided they didn't want to mess with the pain of the paperwork.
It's one of literally hundreds of federal government policies that actively penalize entrepreneurs and small businesses in rural areas.

One of the great things about cash is that you used to be able to use it anywhere. You used to be able to open up a coffee shop or diner in the middle of nowhere near the side of a highway. As long as you had a cistern or similar supply of clean running water and perhaps a propane or gas tank to hook up to the stove, you could cook and serve customers all day long. You didn't need a telephone line, you didn't need an Internet connection, you didn't need all the whizbang technology that's supposed to make everything "easier", and you most assuredly didn't need to be within a short drive of the nearest bank. In short, you didn't need to buy into an infrastructure that now constitutes a barrier to entry for new businesses.

Nowadays, cash-only businesses are penalized and over-regulated because of civil forfeiture and other anti-cash policies. Fact is, communications infrastructure is nowhere near as well developed in the United States as it is in some other nations, outside of the major urban centers. Since there's been strong resistance to government initiatives to connect people in rural areas, there are still people who are not, and have never been, on the electrical grid or on the phone system. Such individuals still need to earn an income and to do business, and back before cash was anathema it used to be possible to do that.
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JLee

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #73 on: December 28, 2016, 03:00:12 PM »
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.

The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.

So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.

Unbelievable.

This is true only of currency transactions.  If "cash" is a check, then the 10k limit doesn't apply.  This is a case of the dealership not understanding the difference between cash equivalents (a check) and currency transactions.

Actually, you can thank the Federal government for this.  Any cash transaction greater than $10k requires a volume of paperwork.  Apparently, if you have a stack of cash, you're either a drug dealer or a money launderer.  Most businesses decided they didn't want to mess with the pain of the paperwork.
It's one of literally hundreds of federal government policies that actively penalize entrepreneurs and small businesses in rural areas.

One of the great things about cash is that you used to be able to use it anywhere. You used to be able to open up a coffee shop or diner in the middle of nowhere near the side of a highway. As long as you had a cistern or similar supply of clean running water and perhaps a propane or gas tank to hook up to the stove, you could cook and serve customers all day long. You didn't need a telephone line, you didn't need an Internet connection, you didn't need all the whizbang technology that's supposed to make everything "easier", and you most assuredly didn't need to be within a short drive of the nearest bank. In short, you didn't need to buy into an infrastructure that now constitutes a barrier to entry for new businesses.

Nowadays, cash-only businesses are penalized and over-regulated because of civil forfeiture and other anti-cash policies. Fact is, communications infrastructure is nowhere near as well developed in the United States as it is in some other nations, outside of the major urban centers. Since there's been strong resistance to government initiatives to connect people in rural areas, there are still people who are not, and have never been, on the electrical grid or on the phone system. Such individuals still need to earn an income and to do business, and back before cash was anathema it used to be possible to do that.

The requirement to file a Currency Transaction Report is on the financial institution, not the individual or company requesting the transaction.  Could you explain how this is "actively penalizing entrepreneurs and small businesses"?

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2016, 09:00:20 PM »
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.

The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.

So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.

Unbelievable.

This is true only of currency transactions.  If "cash" is a check, then the 10k limit doesn't apply.  This is a case of the dealership not understanding the difference between cash equivalents (a check) and currency transactions.

Actually, you can thank the Federal government for this.  Any cash transaction greater than $10k requires a volume of paperwork.  Apparently, if you have a stack of cash, you're either a drug dealer or a money launderer.  Most businesses decided they didn't want to mess with the pain of the paperwork.
It's one of literally hundreds of federal government policies that actively penalize entrepreneurs and small businesses in rural areas.

One of the great things about cash is that you used to be able to use it anywhere. You used to be able to open up a coffee shop or diner in the middle of nowhere near the side of a highway. As long as you had a cistern or similar supply of clean running water and perhaps a propane or gas tank to hook up to the stove, you could cook and serve customers all day long. You didn't need a telephone line, you didn't need an Internet connection, you didn't need all the whizbang technology that's supposed to make everything "easier", and you most assuredly didn't need to be within a short drive of the nearest bank. In short, you didn't need to buy into an infrastructure that now constitutes a barrier to entry for new businesses.

Nowadays, cash-only businesses are penalized and over-regulated because of civil forfeiture and other anti-cash policies. Fact is, communications infrastructure is nowhere near as well developed in the United States as it is in some other nations, outside of the major urban centers. Since there's been strong resistance to government initiatives to connect people in rural areas, there are still people who are not, and have never been, on the electrical grid or on the phone system. Such individuals still need to earn an income and to do business, and back before cash was anathema it used to be possible to do that.

The requirement to file a Currency Transaction Report is on the financial institution, not the individual or company requesting the transaction.  Could you explain how this is "actively penalizing entrepreneurs and small businesses"?

Two ways. First, it's part of what I see as a deliberate shift away from cash and toward electronic transactions, which have the virtue of being trackable but which also require what I think of as "infrastructure": a phone line, a cell connection, etc. That kind of trend is fine for large volume businesses where it gets lost in the noise, but for a smaller business it's a bigger impact.

Second, eventually you do have to do business with a financial institution if only to pay income taxes: the IRS only started accepting cash this year and not all of the states that collect income taxes or gross receipt taxes accept cash. If financial institutions are no longer willing to do business with you because the paperwork makes your business model too much of a pain in the butt, you simply have to suck it up and make extra trips to keep the deposit amounts low, or accept the financial hit that comes with having a phone line put in or paying through the nose for satellite connectivity.

I'd list the risk of civil asset forfeiture also except it's been discussed thoroughly in other threads. My point is that the suspicion associated with dealing in cash never seems to be directed against the big players, just the little people. Big-box companies or to retail employees making a cash drop or pulling a float are never the innocent victims. It's always the mom-and-pop businesses or an individual who just sold a car or got paid for some home repairs. We never hear of a mall employee getting clipped while making a cash drop at the bank after closing up the store. Statistically I'd expect it to happen more often.
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marty998

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #75 on: December 28, 2016, 10:33:44 PM »
I'd list the risk of civil asset forfeiture also except it's been discussed thoroughly in other threads.

I honestly don't understand this. Sounds like communism to me that the state can just seize your assets? This is America?

We have "unexplained wealth" laws here, the Tax Office can make a tax assessment against you if you are unable to prove where your ill-gotten gains have come from (e.g. from selling cocaine).

But there is an underlying sense to that legislation, not simply the government stealing your money that you'd find in countries of a socialist bent.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #76 on: December 29, 2016, 01:06:24 AM »
I'd list the risk of civil asset forfeiture also except it's been discussed thoroughly in other threads.

I honestly don't understand this. Sounds like communism to me that the state can just seize your assets? This is America?

We have "unexplained wealth" laws here, the Tax Office can make a tax assessment against you if you are unable to prove where your ill-gotten gains have come from (e.g. from selling cocaine).

But there is an underlying sense to that legislation, not simply the government stealing your money that you'd find in countries of a socialist bent.

Might I point out that there is a huge difference between communism and socialism. You don't see "socialistically bent" countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, Germany, Denmark, Netherlands stealing their citizens money.

We have the same money laundering laws as everyone else. If you show up with 10 million euros the tax people are going to want to know where they came from.

Our governments don't steal our money on a whim. Sheez.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #77 on: December 29, 2016, 07:57:56 AM »
I'd list the risk of civil asset forfeiture also except it's been discussed thoroughly in other threads.
I honestly don't understand this. Sounds like communism to me that the state can just seize your assets? This is America?

Sad, but true. Not only do they take cash, they have now also started forcing people to give them their debit card PIN and sucking as much money as possible from their account as they sit by the side of the road.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize/

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #78 on: December 29, 2016, 08:43:16 AM »
Two ways. First, it's part of what I see as a deliberate shift away from cash and toward electronic transactions, which have the virtue of being trackable but which also require what I think of as "infrastructure": a phone line, a cell connection, etc. That kind of trend is fine for large volume businesses where it gets lost in the noise, but for a smaller business it's a bigger impact.

Second, eventually you do have to do business with a financial institution if only to pay income taxes: the IRS only started accepting cash this year and not all of the states that collect income taxes or gross receipt taxes accept cash. If financial institutions are no longer willing to do business with you because the paperwork makes your business model too much of a pain in the butt, you simply have to suck it up and make extra trips to keep the deposit amounts low, or accept the financial hit that comes with having a phone line put in or paying through the nose for satellite connectivity.

I'd list the risk of civil asset forfeiture also except it's been discussed thoroughly in other threads. My point is that the suspicion associated with dealing in cash never seems to be directed against the big players, just the little people. Big-box companies or to retail employees making a cash drop or pulling a float are never the innocent victims. It's always the mom-and-pop businesses or an individual who just sold a car or got paid for some home repairs. We never hear of a mall employee getting clipped while making a cash drop at the bank after closing up the store. Statistically I'd expect it to happen more often.
That's...not how it works. That's also called structuring, and is illegal.

If you have an example of a business that was refused business by a financial institution because they routinely legally deposited over $10k in cash, I'd love to see it.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #79 on: December 29, 2016, 09:35:29 AM »
this is just insane how long til you are actually ahead money in the car.  its the big short only not as much money in the game as the mortgage bubble.  but i feel a car bubble coming. and i'll be there to scoop up a good deal on the large used inventory
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #80 on: December 29, 2016, 09:44:38 AM »
I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think businesses exist to make their lives easier.  A business exist to make money for the owner. 

Nope, I think businesses exist solely for me to mock them.

In which case they won't stay in business long :)

And you will have to find something else to mock (not that there is a shortage).

Oh, I fully acknowledge that in their story they exist to make money; but in my story they exist for my amusement. I mean how many people can be convinced to replace a perfectly serviceable car every year, or to pay outrageous interest to have said car now rather than next year.

The dealers will run out of fools to sell to before I run out of things to mock.

 A majority :)  They aren't really looking for convincing, they are looking for agreement.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #81 on: December 29, 2016, 02:23:15 PM »
Sales guy refused to provide anything other than the monthly payment and the length of the contract

Sadly this deceptive practice is present pretty much anywhere where most purchases are financed. We just bought a new construction home a few months ago and when we got to the price negotiation part the sales-droid started talking about how the amount we were trying to negotiate down was "only XX dollars a month!" with the implication that we were in some way "wrong" for trying to get the price down.

When the guy did that we informed him that we were "actual price sort of folks and can't sign at the price you are asking" and walked out. A couple days later he calls up and offers us what we asked for. Standard negotiation stuff really, but I was amazed when he actually apologized for trying to "talk payment". I damn near hit the floor. I can only assume he got reprimanded for almost costing the deal. Not sure if the guy had a care sales background or if this practice is now common in new home sales.

I think this is getting to be more common in new home sales.  I noticed the new home model is very much base price and now we will send you to the "upsell" finishing department where your options can add on $10,000+ to the home.  Oh and you already signed the I'm buying the house for the base price piece of paper.  In the end they will tell you at the upsell department that over 30 years the $4,000 floor upgrade is only $3 a month extra on your mortgage.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #82 on: December 29, 2016, 03:47:40 PM »
In the end they will tell you at the upsell department that over 30 years the $4,000 floor upgrade is only $3 a month extra on your mortgage.
That might not be such a bad deal, to get a $4000 upgrade for only $1080 in payments spread over 30 years...

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #83 on: December 29, 2016, 04:29:51 PM »
In the end they will tell you at the upsell department that over 30 years the $4,000 floor upgrade is only $3 a month extra on your mortgage.
That might not be such a bad deal, to get a $4000 upgrade for only $1080 in payments spread over 30 years...

Balloon payment.  ;)
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #84 on: December 29, 2016, 04:31:31 PM »
Two ways. First, it's part of what I see as a deliberate shift away from cash and toward electronic transactions, which have the virtue of being trackable but which also require what I think of as "infrastructure": a phone line, a cell connection, etc. That kind of trend is fine for large volume businesses where it gets lost in the noise, but for a smaller business it's a bigger impact.

Second, eventually you do have to do business with a financial institution if only to pay income taxes: the IRS only started accepting cash this year and not all of the states that collect income taxes or gross receipt taxes accept cash. If financial institutions are no longer willing to do business with you because the paperwork makes your business model too much of a pain in the butt, you simply have to suck it up and make extra trips to keep the deposit amounts low, or accept the financial hit that comes with having a phone line put in or paying through the nose for satellite connectivity.

I'd list the risk of civil asset forfeiture also except it's been discussed thoroughly in other threads. My point is that the suspicion associated with dealing in cash never seems to be directed against the big players, just the little people. Big-box companies or to retail employees making a cash drop or pulling a float are never the innocent victims. It's always the mom-and-pop businesses or an individual who just sold a car or got paid for some home repairs. We never hear of a mall employee getting clipped while making a cash drop at the bank after closing up the store. Statistically I'd expect it to happen more often.
That's...not how it works. That's also called structuring, and is illegal.

If you have an example of a business that was refused business by a financial institution because they routinely legally deposited over $10k in cash, I'd love to see it.

Here you go. 100% legal, and the bank refuses to do business.
https://www.greendot.com/content/docs/GreenDotRewardsDAA.pdf

Green Dot is a smaller bank, but they spell their policy out in black and white, and they set their cutoff substantially below $10k.

Here banks are just plain refusing to handle transactions for a business that is perfectly legal in their state.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/12/us/banks-say-no-to-marijuana-money-legal-or-not.html


But at least the pot growers were luckier than these folks.
This one had some IRS trouble involving LESS than $10k in cash deposits.
https://www.rt.com/usa/199883-irs-structuring-civil-asset-forfeiture/

Here a lady followed her banker's instructions and made roughly one deposit per week from her cash-only restaurant, to stay under the $10,000 limit. Note that this was at the bank's request.
http://www.wnd.com/2014/10/irs-seizes-life-savings-for-deposits-under-10000/


This time they backed down and decided that a restaurant owner who did weekly deposits instead of carrying cash around shouldn't have her assets seized, but look what it did to her.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20141214/11540529440/irs-drops-its-asset-forfeiture-case-against-owner-small-cash-only-restaurant.shtml

For the record, going to the bank and depositing a weekend's worth of sales isn't "structuring" and it isn't "illegal". For a person who runs a family farm, breeds dogs, horses, cattle, chickens, or sells at a grower's market, it's called "Monday".

You take your float out Thursday, you work markets on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, then you go deposit what you earned. If you've got a high-value short-season crop like pinyon nuts, green chile, Asian pears, or something similar it's very possible to make $10k in a single week. Same goes if you make furniture, sell art, or flip cars or furniture.

In the case of the farmer, there's no time to go stand in line at the bank or the ATM daily, because every hour you're not at the stand is several sales you lose and someone else gets. If you can't offload your crop you're likely to lose that year's profits. Accepting checks isn't an option most of the time, because too many people are ripoff artists. Plastic is an option if you're inside cell phone service area and then of course there are all the fees associated with getting that kind of luxury.

What's best of all is if you can send someone to the bank to do the cash drop for you, but that's no longer an option unless their name is on the account (and the bank gets to gouge them for a monthly maintenance fee... see how that works?)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mybanktracker/chase-stops-cash-deposits_b_5568830.html

It's perfectly acceptable for a sole proprietorship to use a personal account instead of a high-fee business account. It's also perfectly acceptable to go to the bank at least once a week instead of letting cash pile up in the house and attract burglars.

No human being should be required to tolerate the extra stress and risk of allowing cash to pile up in the home so that it can be taken to the bank in IRS-friendly or IRS-unfriendly amounts.
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JLee

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #85 on: December 29, 2016, 05:01:03 PM »
Two ways. First, it's part of what I see as a deliberate shift away from cash and toward electronic transactions, which have the virtue of being trackable but which also require what I think of as "infrastructure": a phone line, a cell connection, etc. That kind of trend is fine for large volume businesses where it gets lost in the noise, but for a smaller business it's a bigger impact.

Second, eventually you do have to do business with a financial institution if only to pay income taxes: the IRS only started accepting cash this year and not all of the states that collect income taxes or gross receipt taxes accept cash. If financial institutions are no longer willing to do business with you because the paperwork makes your business model too much of a pain in the butt, you simply have to suck it up and make extra trips to keep the deposit amounts low, or accept the financial hit that comes with having a phone line put in or paying through the nose for satellite connectivity.

I'd list the risk of civil asset forfeiture also except it's been discussed thoroughly in other threads. My point is that the suspicion associated with dealing in cash never seems to be directed against the big players, just the little people. Big-box companies or to retail employees making a cash drop or pulling a float are never the innocent victims. It's always the mom-and-pop businesses or an individual who just sold a car or got paid for some home repairs. We never hear of a mall employee getting clipped while making a cash drop at the bank after closing up the store. Statistically I'd expect it to happen more often.
That's...not how it works. That's also called structuring, and is illegal.

If you have an example of a business that was refused business by a financial institution because they routinely legally deposited over $10k in cash, I'd love to see it.

Here you go. 100% legal, and the bank refuses to do business.
https://www.greendot.com/content/docs/GreenDotRewardsDAA.pdf

Green Dot is a smaller bank, but they spell their policy out in black and white, and they set their cutoff substantially below $10k.

Here banks are just plain refusing to handle transactions for a business that is perfectly legal in their state.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/12/us/banks-say-no-to-marijuana-money-legal-or-not.html


But at least the pot growers were luckier than these folks.
This one had some IRS trouble involving LESS than $10k in cash deposits.
https://www.rt.com/usa/199883-irs-structuring-civil-asset-forfeiture/

Here a lady followed her banker's instructions and made roughly one deposit per week from her cash-only restaurant, to stay under the $10,000 limit. Note that this was at the bank's request.
http://www.wnd.com/2014/10/irs-seizes-life-savings-for-deposits-under-10000/


This time they backed down and decided that a restaurant owner who did weekly deposits instead of carrying cash around shouldn't have her assets seized, but look what it did to her.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20141214/11540529440/irs-drops-its-asset-forfeiture-case-against-owner-small-cash-only-restaurant.shtml

For the record, going to the bank and depositing a weekend's worth of sales isn't "structuring" and it isn't "illegal". For a person who runs a family farm, breeds dogs, horses, cattle, chickens, or sells at a grower's market, it's called "Monday".

You take your float out Thursday, you work markets on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, then you go deposit what you earned. If you've got a high-value short-season crop like pinyon nuts, green chile, Asian pears, or something similar it's very possible to make $10k in a single week. Same goes if you make furniture, sell art, or flip cars or furniture.

In the case of the farmer, there's no time to go stand in line at the bank or the ATM daily, because every hour you're not at the stand is several sales you lose and someone else gets. If you can't offload your crop you're likely to lose that year's profits. Accepting checks isn't an option most of the time, because too many people are ripoff artists. Plastic is an option if you're inside cell phone service area and then of course there are all the fees associated with getting that kind of luxury.

What's best of all is if you can send someone to the bank to do the cash drop for you, but that's no longer an option unless their name is on the account (and the bank gets to gouge them for a monthly maintenance fee... see how that works?)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mybanktracker/chase-stops-cash-deposits_b_5568830.html

It's perfectly acceptable for a sole proprietorship to use a personal account instead of a high-fee business account. It's also perfectly acceptable to go to the bank at least once a week instead of letting cash pile up in the house and attract burglars.

No human being should be required to tolerate the extra stress and risk of allowing cash to pile up in the home so that it can be taken to the bank in IRS-friendly or IRS-unfriendly amounts.

1) Green Dot's products are pre-paid cards.  They don't have traditional bank accounts -- and their daily ACH limit is $2,500. Your attitude towards them is unfounded.

2) That's about MJ businesses, not cash deposits.

Chase's cash deposit policy that you referenced only applies to cash deposits made to a personal account. Personal accounts are, by definition, for personal use.  Other than being complainypants towards "the man," I'm not sure how someone could have a problem with this policy.

The other examples are civil forfeiture, not a bank "no longer willing to do business with you because the paperwork makes your business model too much of a pain in the butt." 

esq

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #86 on: December 29, 2016, 05:09:46 PM »
In 2013 my '99 Camry died and I had $5000 to spend on a replacement.  I found a 2007 Sonata at a VW dealership.  I drove it and didn't care for the "feel" of it.  Spoiled by Toyota, I guess.  While I was there, a salesman cordially invited me to sit down. 

He said, "Do you realize how much money you're wasting by buying used"?

I just stared at him as I let that little gem of wisdom float in the otherwise still air of a very empty dealership.  Then I explained the beauty of not having a car note on a dependable car that would last me many years.  There's just no arguing with that.  He knew it, and I knew it.  Our conversation was a short one.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #87 on: December 29, 2016, 05:39:13 PM »
Chase's cash deposit policy that you referenced only applies to cash deposits made to a personal account. Personal accounts are, by definition, for personal use.  Other than being complainypants towards "the man," I'm not sure how someone could have a problem with this policy.

The other examples are civil forfeiture, not a bank "no longer willing to do business with you because the paperwork makes your business model too much of a pain in the butt."

No, actually, the reason the lady with the restaurant was the victim of a civil asset forfeiture was because her bank wouldn't take her biweekly cash deposits, which were over $10k, and instructed her to spread them out. It was her following the bank's instructions that led to her trouble with the IRS. It's kind of, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

There are plenty of reasons to put cash into someone else's account and it's completely normal behavior.

- Parents putting money into an account of a child who's at a university out of town
- A spouse putting money into the account of another spouse who's traveling overseas
- A 'stacheless friend (we all have one) is traveling, has an emergency, but cannot wait for Western Union or for a check to clear. Cash deposits are handled almost instantaneously.
- Handing the bills and the deposit slip to a family member to drop off while running errands
- A child putting his or her babysitting or lawn mowing money in a parent's account for safekeeping (no, not all kids have their own accounts)
- An employee of a sole proprietor business (not a LLC) makes a deposit of cash receipts as part of his or her employment duties
- A person is contributing to raise money to bury a fallen police officer or murdered child (what usually happens: a bank or credit union sets up an account in the name of the next of kin)

Wanting to continue being able to do these things is not "being complainypants toward 'the man'". It's perfectly normal behavior.
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JLee

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #88 on: December 29, 2016, 05:50:50 PM »
Chase's cash deposit policy that you referenced only applies to cash deposits made to a personal account. Personal accounts are, by definition, for personal use.  Other than being complainypants towards "the man," I'm not sure how someone could have a problem with this policy.

The other examples are civil forfeiture, not a bank "no longer willing to do business with you because the paperwork makes your business model too much of a pain in the butt."

No, actually, the reason the lady with the restaurant was the victim of a civil asset forfeiture was because her bank wouldn't take her biweekly cash deposits, which were over $10k, and instructed her to spread them out. It was her following the bank's instructions that led to her trouble with the IRS. It's kind of, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

There are plenty of reasons to put cash into someone else's account and it's completely normal behavior.

- Parents putting money into an account of a child who's at a university out of town
- A spouse putting money into the account of another spouse who's traveling overseas
- A 'stacheless friend (we all have one) is traveling, has an emergency, but cannot wait for Western Union or for a check to clear. Cash deposits are handled almost instantaneously.
- Handing the bills and the deposit slip to a family member to drop off while running errands
- A child putting his or her babysitting or lawn mowing money in a parent's account for safekeeping (no, not all kids have their own accounts)
- An employee of a sole proprietor business (not a LLC) makes a deposit of cash receipts as part of his or her employment duties
- A person is contributing to raise money to bury a fallen police officer or murdered child (what usually happens: a bank or credit union sets up an account in the name of the next of kin)

Wanting to continue being able to do these things is not "being complainypants toward 'the man'". It's perfectly normal behavior.

Am I looking at the wrong link? I see this:

Quote
“My mom had told me if you keep your deposits under $10,000, the bank avoids paperwork,” she said. “I didn’t actually think it had anything to do with the IRS.”

I understand that you don't like it, but it's a reasonable policy.

“We are making this policy change for cash deposits only to combat misuse of accounts, including money laundering,” a Chase spokesperson said.

The new policy came about due to the highly publicized Ponzi scheme involving Bernie Madoff. Chase recently reached a $2 billion settlement over lax standards related to the Madoff Ponzi scheme. The policy which started in February 2014 will not affect check and money order deposits being made into personal investment, treasury, and commercial accounts.

“With Chase being America’s biggest bank, it may be creating a new trend that other banking institutions follow,” says Gary Herman, President of Consolidated Credit. “Even though it may be a bit inconvenient and unconventional, this new policy is meant to act as a form of protection.”

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #89 on: December 29, 2016, 06:04:42 PM »
Back to the "stupid dealer tricks" portion of today's entertainment.

 I forgot my all time favorite. About ten years ago I found a new travel trailer at a large volume "wholesaler" dealer about five hours from home. They had what I wanted, it was currently being built, and was to arrive in a few weeks, at the dealer's lot, as part of their inventory.  This thing was a true economy model, and needed a few 'upgrades" to make it usable, like a spare tire. This is where things fell down the rabbit hole, and "really weird" didn't quite cover it. First, my salesperson talked like a hippy chick and was likely tripping while working the phones, as she was so slow, it often too half a minute for her to process anything I said, and start on a response. Her end was full of all kinds of delights at meaningless points in the conversation, and lots of flower child comments about random things. This led to issues, as she was either incompetent, or lied her ass off, or both. She first told me that changing several things at the factory was no issue, so a spare tire, bigger propane tanks, etc.... were no problem, and were being done for low cost, at the factory. All total bullshit to close the deal, none of this was possible. Second, she failed to explain that they expected payment in full, within a few days of getting the deposit, and that they would be issuing a title for the unit before it left the factory.  This led to a major blow-up for many reasons. First, she never disclosed this before taking a ten percent, non-refundable deposit. Second, had she done so, I would of laughed and moved on, since there is no way any intelligent person would do this. Third, they based this game on the fact that their rigs were "custom ordered" and paying in full assured that they would not be stuck with somebody's highly custom RV. The last one is bullshit on so many levels including the fact that there is no way to really end up with a highly individualized rig in this case. You pick a few colors and options from a limited list, and your done. You can't get a pink exterior and an orange interior, it's all slightly different variations of the same crap. The biggest reason however was that this unit was inbound to sit on their lot. I didn't order it.

This led to a stalemate with management that lasted a few days. MY position was not negotiable. I will never pay for, and title a vehicle in my name, prior to inspecting it in person, end of story. They then tried to tell me that I had to do it this way, since the state will not issue a temporary transit tag to let the vehicle leave the state unless the transaction had been processed at least 24 hours earlier. I then revealed that I had been a repeat customer of a large truck dealer in their state, where I regularly bought trucks for my business, and magically left the dealership a few hours after I arrived, with the very tag that they claim couldn't be issued.  We finally moved past that point, but only after the hippy called to tell me that I was wrong, basically called me a liar, and that she HAD informed me that I would be paying in full, and titling an RV before it left the factory. When I called her on her bullshit, she told me that I was "creating a lot of negative energy, and she wasn't comfortable with the vibe". Poor little princess, I hope she has recovered. I can't imagine how she managed to stay employed, as her performance was too bizarre to tolerate by any semi-professional standards.

When the thing finally arrived, I was jerked around a few days while they fit me into their schedule. It was dead of winter, at the Canadian border, and the dealership was so dead that they looked like they had folded up shop. But whatever game the manager needed to play was OK by me. I got there mid-week. He was being a dick and couldn't fit me in until then since he was "slammed with new customer deliveries".   The shop guys said it was the first thing they did all week. The next issue is that, since I want's a big enough idiot to pay for the thing weeks before, they refused to accept any kind of payment offered. WTF?  Cash? Nope, we will not handle $11K in cash. Certified check? Nope, we won't risk getting a bogus check and some out of state buyer driving our stolen rig off into the sunset. OK, I got it. There is a branch of my bank a few blocks from your dealership. I will drive an employee there,  have them observe the banker generating a legitimate check, then have the bank hand it to your employee? Nope, we can't tell you why we won't do this, but no.  Finally I told them that they could either accept a wire transfer, or I would be contacting my CC company and getting my deposit refunded, since I was tired of their games. We then arranged a deal where I would inspect the RV, call my banker, authorize him to wire funds to their account, and they would give me the title when they were sure the transfer had occurred. This was acceptable.

 As I was about to leave with the RV, they had the balls to ask for  $25 since they had issued a temporary paper license plate. I went to the back of the trailer, tore it off, installed a metal trailer plate I had from another trailer, and dropped the paper tag off at desk. When the clerk told me I couldn't leave without paying for it, I asked to speak to the manager, who magically wasn't anywhere to be found. They got him on the phone, and he tried to tell me how he went out of his way to get me that plate. I told him to fuck off, and left.

 The trailer was great.  We used it hard, and often for four years, and sold it for a few thousand less.

gimp

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #90 on: December 30, 2016, 09:26:41 PM »
I've been debating this for a while now.  I work on MINIs and there is a lack of independent shops that cater to those cars. The only issue is the low sale over the past few years, so not sure how such a specific brand can support an independent shop.

I do work on air-cooled VW's for fun, so maybe having two smaller niche markets can be a plus and can sustain a 3 bay shop.

Man that would be so sweet ;)

You might find work in the bay area - there are a lot of people with more money than sense, and who really really value their air-cooled VWs and their minis.

BlueMR2

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #91 on: December 31, 2016, 05:41:38 AM »
My story isn't as interesting as the dealership was so totally uninterested in selling to me...

I wanted a motorcycle and had decided on a Ninja 300 ABS.  Relatively inexpensive and a newer model at the time, so I was willing to buy new.  I contacted the dealership who said they didn't have any.  I said I wanted to buy one, let me know as soon as you get one in.  Nothing for weeks.  Checked in, and they had a whole bunch.  Went and looked at them, couldn't get a salesperson to even talk to me.  Ended up buying an old rough used Katana as a project bike from a friend instead.

Same dealership has an excellent parts department.  I use them all the time, they can get old parts, no problem.

That's important because...  Same dealership has a service department.  They won't work on "old" bikes (anything pre-2000) because they claim that they can't get parts for them.  Which is really funny because the parts they claim are unavailable, I have no problem ordering from parts department at the very same dealership!  And it's not a scam to get people to buy new bikes, because if you go back to the beginning, they seem totally uninterested in selling bikes!

Mind = boggled.

Clean Shaven

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #92 on: December 31, 2016, 08:28:30 AM »
You know how dealership salesmen descend upon you when you drive onto the lot, since they're all looking for commission?

If you want to just shop, try riding a bicycle to the dealer. The salesmen want nothing to do with you.

startingsmall

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #93 on: December 31, 2016, 10:11:59 AM »
3. Sales in December increase because "People want to clear out their bank accounts by the end of the year so they don't take a tax hit".
W. T. F. ?!? I can't even wrap my head around this statement, and TWO different sales associates said this to me.
Oh, sure -- excellent advice.  Similarly, you should keep a mortgage for the tax break! 

Thing is, some people don't know any better.  Others are looking for any excuse to allow themselves to be "talked into" buying a new car.   

But it still doesn't make sense. You DO actually get a tax break for mortgage interest.

But the government doesn't tax you on your bank balance. There is no tax hit for having money in the bank.

So many people don't get this. My husband's family lives to talk about the one rich uncle whose accountant told him he "had to buy a lake house so he wouldn't get taxed like crazy." Said rich uncle is an employee, not a business owner (according to what I've been told), so something has clearly been lost in translation.

My sister-in-law was also supposedly told to buy a new car to save on taxes. Again, she doesn't own a business. Whatever.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #94 on: December 31, 2016, 11:41:46 AM »
3. Sales in December increase because "People want to clear out their bank accounts by the end of the year so they don't take a tax hit".
W. T. F. ?!? I can't even wrap my head around this statement, and TWO different sales associates said this to me.
Oh, sure -- excellent advice.  Similarly, you should keep a mortgage for the tax break! 

Thing is, some people don't know any better.  Others are looking for any excuse to allow themselves to be "talked into" buying a new car.   

But it still doesn't make sense. You DO actually get a tax break for mortgage interest.

But the government doesn't tax you on your bank balance. There is no tax hit for having money in the bank.

So many people don't get this. My husband's family lives to talk about the one rich uncle whose accountant told him he "had to buy a lake house so he wouldn't get taxed like crazy." Said rich uncle is an employee, not a business owner (according to what I've been told), so something has clearly been lost in translation.

My sister-in-law was also supposedly told to buy a new car to save on taxes. Again, she doesn't own a business. Whatever.

And a whole lot of people don't understand that at today's interest rates and today's standard deduction amounts: They don't get a tax break for mortgage interest.  I'm not saying folks in this thread haven't done the math.  But I can't tell you how many times folks have told me that without doing the math.  Or they've "bought a more expensive house to get a tax break".  (I.e., spending a dollar so they can save 20 cents.)
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #95 on: January 01, 2017, 01:53:26 PM »
I understand that you don't like it, but it's a reasonable policy.

Reasonable for the bank, and the government, and the IRS, yes. I don't dispute that. But at the same time, the policy is extremely unreasonable and inconvenient for a set of people who are simply going about their ordinary law-abiding lives and who aren't doing anything wrong. That set contains more individuals-- many of whom are voters-- than government officials and policymakers appear to realize.

Whether government policies make it easier for banks to do business or stay in business is of fundamental importance to our government, because the shareholders of the bank are important. That's why if a bank screws up badly enough such as during the subprime mortgage meltdown, government fell all over itself making sure the banks' shareholders didn't take too much of a hit. Whether the bank's individual customers are affected by the same policies simply weren't a blip on the government's radar screen.

We can see the same pattern in the automobile sector. Government policies that make it easy for dealers or manufacturers to make money-- such as the Big 3 auto bailout, a laundry list of mandatory whizbang "safety" gadgets that don't actually do anything reliably except break or drive up the price of a new car, or the requirement that new cars be purchased from dealers-- clearly benefit the businesses that manufacture and sell vehicles. They create a barrier to entry for competition from, say, cheap foreign cars such as Tata produces and sells in India that are inexpensive to make and buy but that lack some of the mandatory safety features. The benefit to the dealers, the manufacturers, and the shareholders is clear. But there's zero corresponding benefit to the people who buy the cars.

Businesses are in business to make money. Balancing the interests of the shareholders with the interests of their customers is the name of the game. However, when government intervenes solidly on the side of the shareholders, not just once but over and over again for decades, it becomes possible to make money hand over fist while completely ignoring what the customers need and want. The situation becomes very unbalanced in a way that seldom benefits the customers.
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gimp

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #96 on: January 01, 2017, 04:00:47 PM »
a laundry list of mandatory whizbang "safety" gadgets that don't actually do anything reliably except break or drive up the price of a new car, or the requirement that new cars be purchased from dealers-- clearly benefit the businesses that manufacture and sell vehicles. They create a barrier to entry for competition from, say, cheap foreign cars such as Tata produces and sells in India that are inexpensive to make and buy but that lack some of the mandatory safety features. The benefit to the dealers, the manufacturers, and the shareholders is clear. But there's zero corresponding benefit to the people who buy the cars.

Bruh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85OysZ_4lp0

This is the difference between the cheapest american-sold car, and the same car sold in mexico for significantly less, and with significantly fewer safety features and a less safe overall design.

This is what those barriers to entry buy us, and this is why tata has no business selling their $4000 shitmobiles in the US.

I know you don't believe in safety equipment like an ABS, but with all due respect - and you write really insightful things - on the matter of car safety, you're wrong.

paddedhat

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #97 on: January 01, 2017, 06:39:31 PM »
a laundry list of mandatory whizbang "safety" gadgets that don't actually do anything reliably except break or drive up the price of a new car, or the requirement that new cars be purchased from dealers-- clearly benefit the businesses that manufacture and sell vehicles. They create a barrier to entry for competition from, say, cheap foreign cars such as Tata produces and sells in India that are inexpensive to make and buy but that lack some of the mandatory safety features. The benefit to the dealers, the manufacturers, and the shareholders is clear. But there's zero corresponding benefit to the people who buy the cars.

Bruh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85OysZ_4lp0

This is the difference between the cheapest american-sold car, and the same car sold in mexico for significantly less, and with significantly fewer safety features and a less safe overall design.

This is what those barriers to entry buy us, and this is why tata has no business selling their $4000 shitmobiles in the US.

I know you don't believe in safety equipment like an ABS, but with all due respect - and you write really insightful things - on the matter of car safety, you're wrong.

Yea...........X2. I'm a big fan of yours, Squeaker, but you're way off base on this one.  Doesn't matter if it's ABS, side air bags, traction control, crumple zones, crash testing, or penalizing the shit out of GM for saving less than a dollar on ignitions that they knew were defective, I am grateful that the government is trying to do their job in that arena.  I'm about an uber antimustachian when it comes to a lifetime of clown car owning and driving. In that time, and countless vehicles, I have never spent a dime  on dealing with defective safety equipment on my vehicles. In fact, I think that it's totally fair to say that the newest, most complex, over-regulated vehicles that I have owned, are by far the most reliable.

We saw a horrifying example of this today. We spent half an hour crawling in holiday traffic to get past an accident. Somebody had violently  rear ended a 1972ish Olds Cutlass convertible with a Honda element. At a quick glance, it was hard to believe that the Honda was involved.  The crumple zones performed as designed, and from the windshield on back, the car looked undamaged. The rear of the Cutlass looked like it got taken out by a tractor trailer, it was crushed forward and down.  Sadly,  the fuel tank ignited, and the car burned to a crisp. Hopefully the occupants got out in time? I love old cars, and owned twenty, or so, air cooled VWs as a kid and young adult. That said, I would never buy another bug to drive on a regular basis. There have been thousands of people killed, paralyzed and severely injured just do to being rear ended while sitting in seats that were anchored to the car using 1940s tech. Basically, thin sheet metal slides that would work fine for file cabinets, but are nothing but a death trap, when you get hit hard from behind. 

Sorry, but IMHO $7K Mexican Nissan Sentras, with late 80's tech. And $4K Tatas, that are about as safe as a riding mower, and are developing a bad habit of spontaneously burning to the ground, are nothing that we, as a society, are missing out on.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #98 on: January 01, 2017, 09:57:56 PM »
a laundry list of mandatory whizbang "safety" gadgets that don't actually do anything reliably except break or drive up the price of a new car, or the requirement that new cars be purchased from dealers-- clearly benefit the businesses that manufacture and sell vehicles. They create a barrier to entry for competition from, say, cheap foreign cars such as Tata produces and sells in India that are inexpensive to make and buy but that lack some of the mandatory safety features. The benefit to the dealers, the manufacturers, and the shareholders is clear. But there's zero corresponding benefit to the people who buy the cars.

Bruh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85OysZ_4lp0

This is the difference between the cheapest american-sold car, and the same car sold in mexico for significantly less, and with significantly fewer safety features and a less safe overall design.

This is what those barriers to entry buy us, and this is why tata has no business selling their $4000 shitmobiles in the US.

I know you don't believe in safety equipment like an ABS, but with all due respect - and you write really insightful things - on the matter of car safety, you're wrong.

Yea...........X2. I'm a big fan of yours, Squeaker, but you're way off base on this one.  Doesn't matter if it's ABS, side air bags, traction control, crumple zones, crash testing, or penalizing the shit out of GM for saving less than a dollar on ignitions that they knew were defective, I am grateful that the government is trying to do their job in that arena.  I'm about an uber antimustachian when it comes to a lifetime of clown car owning and driving. In that time, and countless vehicles, I have never spent a dime  on dealing with defective safety equipment on my vehicles. In fact, I think that it's totally fair to say that the newest, most complex, over-regulated vehicles that I have owned, are by far the most reliable.

We saw a horrifying example of this today. We spent half an hour crawling in holiday traffic to get past an accident. Somebody had violently  rear ended a 1972ish Olds Cutlass convertible with a Honda element. At a quick glance, it was hard to believe that the Honda was involved.  The crumple zones performed as designed, and from the windshield on back, the car looked undamaged. The rear of the Cutlass looked like it got taken out by a tractor trailer, it was crushed forward and down.  Sadly,  the fuel tank ignited, and the car burned to a crisp. Hopefully the occupants got out in time? I love old cars, and owned twenty, or so, air cooled VWs as a kid and young adult. That said, I would never buy another bug to drive on a regular basis. There have been thousands of people killed, paralyzed and severely injured just do to being rear ended while sitting in seats that were anchored to the car using 1940s tech. Basically, thin sheet metal slides that would work fine for file cabinets, but are nothing but a death trap, when you get hit hard from behind. 

Sorry, but IMHO $7K Mexican Nissan Sentras, with late 80's tech. And $4K Tatas, that are about as safe as a riding mower, and are developing a bad habit of spontaneously burning to the ground, are nothing that we, as a society, are missing out on.

There's precedent for people to decide whether their conditions and driving plans justify the purchase of snow tires. That's an example of optional safety equipment. Presently they're not mandatory in Florida, and I'm hoping you're not suggesting that they would be.

Just because a product is cheap doesn't mean it's defective. We can still require recall of dangerously defective products without requiring people to pay ridiculous sums for features designed for a radically different environment than where they will be used.

There are places where people can and do go about on public roads using a riding mower, a tractor, an Amish buggy, a bicycle, a horse, a moped, a rickshaw, a Model T, or a motor scooter without a problem. Typically they're not allowed on major highways but they are routinely used in quiet neighborhoods or small towns for shorter trips. I fail to see why an ultralight auto should be treated any differently than a motor scooter.

I'm also wondering why we've got such a collective black-and-white mentality about 4-wheeled vehicle safety, when we routinely accept the notion that there's more than one kind of 2-wheeled device available and that some have constraints on when, where, and how they can be used.

Why is it OK for there to not be a middle ground, and for there to be nothing on the market to serve the senior citizen who only uses it to get groceries or go to doctor's appointments? I'm thinking: golf cart with doors. Limited range, limited speed, not allowed on major streets or highways.
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MilesTeg

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #99 on: January 02, 2017, 09:34:36 AM »
Why is it OK for there to not be a middle ground, and for there to be nothing on the market to serve the senior citizen who only uses it to get groceries or go to doctor's appointments? I'm thinking: golf cart with doors. Limited range, limited speed, not allowed on major streets or highways.

Quote
I'm also wondering why we've got such a collective black-and-white mentality about 4-wheeled vehicle safety, when we routinely accept the notion that there's more than one kind of 2-wheeled device available and that some have constraints on when, where, and how they can be used.

One big difference is it's a lot easier to distinguish, for example, motordonorcyles from scooters from 4 wheeled vehicles. Society accepts that motordonorcyles mostly because they are rare compared to a 4 wheeled car and the risks are readily apparent to anyone with at least 2 brain cells to rub together. Moreover, it's relatively easy to make allowances for a scooter to use the side of the road and/or bike lane, but not as easy to make allowances for something like a golf cart at golf cart speeds. Roads would have to be re-engineered to allow for three different vehicle types.

As far as vehicle safety, even at relatively low speeds crashes can still happen at very deadly energies because of vehicles driving in opposite directions. The posted video only has the cars going ~35 mph and the POS vehicle still folds like a tent crushing its occupant. In order to make roads safe for things like you propose, you just can't have them sharing the road with regular 4 wheeled vehicles.