Author Topic: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do  (Read 48510 times)

englishteacheralex

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #300 on: February 12, 2017, 03:10:53 PM »
Buying a car at a dealership instead of craigslist for the points has got to be the best example of stepping over a $10 bill to pickup a nickel that I've ever heard! :)

True that. I'd never do it. Just hypothetically thinking. We don't need a car.
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MilesTeg

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #301 on: February 12, 2017, 04:16:43 PM »
Here's a dumb question: Could you buy a car from a dealership with your credit card? Airline miles....

Probably not, huh? Yeah, dumb question.
You could probably put a downpayment on your car with one. Would depend upon the dealership. Unless your credit limit is high enough to cover the whole cost of a car?

High credit limit + Inexpensive car = Yes
I have done it.  However, it is usually going to be a better deal to buy from a private party instead of a dealership.  I'm not sure if airline miles would make up the difference, but I am not a traveler.

When we bought our new car from a dealer they allowed us to put up to $3,000 on a credit card as a down payment. On the other hand, I tried to pay for a car worth ~$4,000-5,000 at a used car dealership with a credit card and they were really reluctant to take it at all. Paid with check instead for that one.

Not defending car dealerships general practice, but it's entirely reasonable for them to not accept a credit card for a car purchase. It's extremely unusual, and so the price they settled on did not include CC transaction fees (3% or so). With items that are commonly paid for with CC (i.e. retail goods), those fees are passed on to the purchaser as a matter of routine.

The hitch being that they can't just charge you those fees, since it's illegal to do so. Or at least was in my state back when I was working retail when it was still common for small businesses to not accept credit cards.

JAYSLOL

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #302 on: February 12, 2017, 05:30:58 PM »
So, sure I'm down for a free car wash, and the tech who'd been working on it immediately jumps in and cranks the engine and it just keeps turning and turning and turning and then finally catches. The customer service guy turns to me, and having forgotten about turning the battery on and apparently not relaying the request to the tech, and suggests that I should get my fuel pump replaced.

Heck that probably gets them alot of work each month b/c the average person doesn't know jack about their car. I have an older domestic sedan that behaves the same way. Let the fuel pump run for a few seconds until it switches off (you can hear it) and it fires immediately when I turn the key just like my import car.

Ah the free car wash.  Another story...

Wife's car goes to dealer for recall.  I get the free car wash.  When I get home, I notice the mirrors.  The non-mirror side is -- or was -- a shiny black plastic.  They had blasted them so hard with a power washer as to take the finish off of them.  They now were matte black and looked like a toddler had sanded them unevenly with 80 grit sand paper.  I just shook my head.

When my car went in for a recall (same dealer) I am offered the free car wash.  No thank you, I say.  The last free car wash you gave me ruined the finish on the mirrors.  Okay, they say.  When I go to pick it up, it's washed.  Mirrors on my car are damaged in exactly the same fashion.  This was 6 months or more later.  I can only wildly assume they were blasting the finish off of 25 cars a day for every work day in that 6 months.

Out of curiosity, what brand of dealer was that?

Toyota.

I've had gigantically awful experience with Toyota Dealers over the years.  I like the cars.  The dealers are, bluntly, just assholes.  I've never been treated like that with other dealerships.  There have been a couple of exceptions to the asshole rule... but in both cases, I had to drive out of my way to find them, passing 3 or more asshat dealers along the path.

As someone who worked at a Toyota dealer, I can confirm both that there is a lot of carelessness in the handling of customer cars, especially from the lot attendants and detail people and that the sales people and service advisers are often complete assholes that could never get away with how they act if they weren't selling and servicing Toyotas. 

JLee

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #303 on: February 12, 2017, 05:38:26 PM »
Here's a dumb question: Could you buy a car from a dealership with your credit card? Airline miles....

Probably not, huh? Yeah, dumb question.
You could probably put a downpayment on your car with one. Would depend upon the dealership. Unless your credit limit is high enough to cover the whole cost of a car?

High credit limit + Inexpensive car = Yes
I have done it.  However, it is usually going to be a better deal to buy from a private party instead of a dealership.  I'm not sure if airline miles would make up the difference, but I am not a traveler.

When we bought our new car from a dealer they allowed us to put up to $3,000 on a credit card as a down payment. On the other hand, I tried to pay for a car worth ~$4,000-5,000 at a used car dealership with a credit card and they were really reluctant to take it at all. Paid with check instead for that one.

Not defending car dealerships general practice, but it's entirely reasonable for them to not accept a credit card for a car purchase. It's extremely unusual, and so the price they settled on did not include CC transaction fees (3% or so). With items that are commonly paid for with CC (i.e. retail goods), those fees are passed on to the purchaser as a matter of routine.

The hitch being that they can't just charge you those fees, since it's illegal to do so. Or at least was in my state back when I was working retail when it was still common for small businesses to not accept credit cards.

That used to be the case, but it changed in 2013.

horsepoor

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #304 on: February 12, 2017, 05:55:18 PM »
Some of these tactics sound familiar. In 2005, I got my heart set on a Mazda3 hatchback, my first new car. There was a Mazda dealership litterally 3 blocks from my house in California, so naturally I tried to buy one there.  Test drove, told them what I wanted, and while they didn't literally lock me in the office, I was blocked in while they tried to pressure me into buying a car with more options than I wanted. Finally got out of there, and a week or two later, they called and said "we have your care here for you, come on down."  I go over and there is the care with options  (none) and color I wanted, but it already had 450 miles on it and was scratched. Apparently they'd driven it a couple hundred miles and not even bothered to wash it, much less try to buff the scratches out. I asked how much they were going to discount this car, since it was clearly used. They gave me a guilt trip about how it only had all those miles because they were bringing it here like I asked. Umm, no you didn't check with me on this. Take your scratched up used car and F-off.  A couple days later the manager called and gave me this half-assed apology and I told him there was no way he'd be getting my business.

Last March, when I bought my Juke, I had what I view as good fortune of having a fairly new, and non-too-bright salesman.  Of course he wanted to run my credit, and I said no; we'll negotiate the out the door price first. My credit will not be a problem.  They neglected to tell me about the 36 month, 0% interest financing that was splashed on the front page of Nissan's website.  I go in, they keep trying to do that 4-square bullshit, and I'm on my phone's calculator punching numbers and going... that doesn't make any sense Randy. Tell me the price of the actual car.  He says he needs to know how much my max payment can be. I say "the car price, plus tax and title, minus my trade. Divide that by 36." Well, I need a max number. I say, "fine, I need my payment to be under $1,000 a month."  He shakes his head and capitulates.  Then they try to drive down the value of my trade in by saying it needed new tires, when I'd put brand new tires on about 3 months before.  At least go for something more believable.  It was actually kind of funny, because I didn't need to buy the car, and was 100% prepared to walk out the door (had the spare key to my car in my pocket).  In fact, I started to do just that and the price came down another $1,000.  This is why I go by myself when buying cars; makes it easier to unilaterally say F-no and walk out, and there's no playing the spouses against each other.




Travis

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #305 on: February 13, 2017, 02:33:42 AM »
Here's a dumb question: Could you buy a car from a dealership with your credit card? Airline miles....

Probably not, huh? Yeah, dumb question.
You could probably put a downpayment on your car with one. Would depend upon the dealership. Unless your credit limit is high enough to cover the whole cost of a car?

High credit limit + Inexpensive car = Yes
I have done it.  However, it is usually going to be a better deal to buy from a private party instead of a dealership.  I'm not sure if airline miles would make up the difference, but I am not a traveler.

When we bought our new car from a dealer they allowed us to put up to $3,000 on a credit card as a down payment. On the other hand, I tried to pay for a car worth ~$4,000-5,000 at a used car dealership with a credit card and they were really reluctant to take it at all. Paid with check instead for that one.

About four years ago I bought a motorcycle in Kansas. The out-the-door was $3500 and I put everything on the credit card.  I didn't even pay sales tax.  He may have simply wanted to get it off his lot that badly.
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act0fgod

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #306 on: February 19, 2017, 02:59:22 PM »
Here's a ridiculous thing that hasn't been brought up.  My wife decided on a car.  The car manufacturer has said we could reserve our car for $1000.  We put this money down almost a year ago and probably won't get the car for more than another year.  Thing is almost 400,000 other people did the same thing.

Just Joe

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #307 on: February 19, 2017, 03:25:33 PM »
What the flip kind of car are you waiting for? Handcrafted carbon fiber ACME sportscar?

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #308 on: February 19, 2017, 04:22:46 PM »
What the flip kind of car are you waiting for? Handcrafted carbon fiber ACME sportscar?

Methinks a Tesla Model 3.

How do I know? I have been lusting after one, but have not pulled the trigger yet :-)

shuffler

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #309 on: February 19, 2017, 04:25:33 PM »
Yeah, I don't think that humble-bragging about how long it takes to get a Tesla counts as a ridiculous thing the dealership is doing.

solon

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #310 on: February 19, 2017, 04:35:56 PM »
Here's a ridiculous thing. Scott Adam's car is worthless now, because of a paperwork error. Big O recorded the mileage wrong, which made it onto Carfax, who now says the car only has salvage value.

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/157447106751/the-paperwork-mistake-that-made-my-luxury-car

AlanStache

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #311 on: February 20, 2017, 08:11:17 AM »
What the flip kind of car are you waiting for? Handcrafted carbon fiber ACME sportscar?

Methinks a Tesla Model 3.

How do I know? I have been lusting after one, but have not pulled the trigger yet :-)

And Tesla was very up front about the long delivery times and that they had not finished designing the car yet, so this is 100% caveat emptor.


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Just Joe

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #312 on: February 20, 2017, 10:19:36 AM »
Tesla - makes sense. I'd wait for a Tesla too. I was imagining what sort of Detroit or Asian brand car you could possibly wait that long for.

act0fgod

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #313 on: February 20, 2017, 12:00:16 PM »
Yeah, I don't think that humble-bragging about how long it takes to get a Tesla counts as a ridiculous thing the dealership is doing.

You're right, it's not the dealership since Tesla has moved away from the dealership model, but it certainly is the manufacturer.  Oddly most people accept this because it is a brand they believe in.  I don't want the car, it's impractical for us (we move every couple of years so will have to ship it).  My wife wants the car and it is a bit of humble bragging/self deprecation that we are fine being stupid with $1000 and giving them a 2 year interest free loan on the right to purchase a car at some unknown time in the future knowing relatively little about the car.  My wife likes the idea and is willing to loan the company some money I guess.  If Chevy was doing this with the bolt (I want a volt) there would be public outcry.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 12:11:11 PM by act0fgod »

mwulff

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #314 on: February 20, 2017, 12:39:40 PM »
Yeah, I don't think that humble-bragging about how long it takes to get a Tesla counts as a ridiculous thing the dealership is doing.

You're right, it's not the dealership since Tesla has moved away from the dealership model, but it certainly is the manufacturer.  Oddly most people accept this because it is a brand they believe in.  I don't want the car, it's impractical for us (we move every couple of years so will have to ship it).  My wife wants the car and it is a bit of humble bragging/self deprecation that we are fine being stupid with $1000 and giving them a 2 year interest free loan on the right to purchase a car at some unknown time in the future knowing relatively little about the car.  My wife likes the idea and is willing to loan the company some money I guess.  If Chevy was doing this with the bolt (I want a volt) there would be public outcry.

I should warn you that if you move overseas then you can't ship the Tesla, at least if it is shipped to Europe. The power connector will not work. EU Vehicles use a Type 2 plug, US vehicles use a Tesla specific plug.

If you're in the continental US then you can just drive the car wherever you move, just use the supercharger network.

The $1000 deposit has a bit of a history with Tesla. They did it for the Roadster and the Model S. So I guess it wouldn't be a Tesla launch without taking a deposit.

At least you can get a full refund if you decide not to get the car, and you get to configure the car as you like it when they are ready to build yours.

gimp

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #315 on: February 20, 2017, 02:04:59 PM »
Here's a ridiculous thing. Scott Adam's car is worthless now, because of a paperwork error. Big O recorded the mileage wrong, which made it onto Carfax, who now says the car only has salvage value.

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/157447106751/the-paperwork-mistake-that-made-my-luxury-car

That's annoying. It also isn't all that hard to fix.

rawr237

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #316 on: February 21, 2017, 06:01:20 AM »
Heard yesterday on the radio: "Do you need $500? Come buy a car with 0% down and we'll give you $500!"
(paraphrased)

Actually went to a dealership Saturday to buy a car, and the salesman didn't want to drop the last $500 off the price to meet my stated budget. My dad and fiance were with me.

Salesman: "It's just $500"
Me: "$500 is a lot of money for me"
Dad: "Yeah when they (me) get a job they start realizing how hard they have to work for  their money" *chuckles*
Salesman: "Well your fiance could give you $250, and your dad can give you $250, and that's $500" wtf
Dad: "She's already got enough of my money" *more chuckles*
Salesman: "Well how about I throw in a couple dollars (don't remember the # but it was less than $5) of my own money, and your dad and fiance can make up the difference" dude NO

The guy 'went back to the manager', and met my price.
I'm sure I could have gotten a better deal on Craigslist so it wasn't Mustachian, but I was in a bit of a hurry to get a car, paid below blue book .

Smokystache

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #317 on: February 21, 2017, 07:27:08 AM »

Salesman: "Well your fiance could give you $250, and your dad can give you $250, and that's $500" wtf
Dad: "She's already got enough of my money" *more chuckles*
Salesman: "Well how about I throw in a couple dollars (don't remember the # but it was less than $5) of my own money, and your dad and fiance can make up the difference" dude NO

Was this dealership locked in some sort of 1930s time warp where women have to get permission and money from men to buy things??? Wow! I'm offended for you.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #318 on: February 21, 2017, 09:22:04 AM »
Yeah, I don't think that humble-bragging about how long it takes to get a Tesla counts as a ridiculous thing the dealership is doing.

You're right, it's not the dealership since Tesla has moved away from the dealership model, but it certainly is the manufacturer.  Oddly most people accept this because it is a brand they believe in.  I don't want the car, it's impractical for us (we move every couple of years so will have to ship it).  My wife wants the car and it is a bit of humble bragging/self deprecation that we are fine being stupid with $1000 and giving them a 2 year interest free loan on the right to purchase a car at some unknown time in the future knowing relatively little about the car.  My wife likes the idea and is willing to loan the company some money I guess.  If Chevy was doing this with the bolt (I want a volt) there would be public outcry.

Used Volts aren't very expensive...

Dezrah

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #319 on: February 21, 2017, 10:54:31 AM »
Several years ago, Oprah had a guest who was transitioning from male to female.  There was a brief period where she could pass as either male or female depending on her dress and body language.  She went to the same dealership twice, presenting as male, then female.  She asked for the same information each trip. 

Not surprisingly she got completely different responses from the dealers.  As a man, they talked about performance and reliability.  As a woman, it was all about color choice and cup holders.  They also started with a higher price point to the woman.  I can't remember if she had the same salesman or not.

Obviously there could be a million other variables at play, but it's not surprising that some dealers have asinine ideas about how to approach men and women differently.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #320 on: February 22, 2017, 02:08:20 PM »
Obviously there could be a million other variables at play, but it's not surprising that some dealers have asinine ideas about how to approach men and women differently.

So, about that: I bought a car while transitionning from one job to another (and therefore one company-provided cell to another), and gave the dealership my old and new numbers, as well as my now-husband's cell # as a back-up.

I took my car to the dealer's for oil and tire changes 3 times after getting it (in my defence, it was the only garage near either work or home, and I was young and ignorant...). I kept "updating" the file with my new phone number; they kept calling my now-husband to schedule appointments. After the third time, I asked WHY they couldn't get their files straight, as I SWEAR that I've updated my phone number with them 3 times.

Answer: "oh, well, cars usually belong to men, so we just always call the guy."

RAGE. FLAMES OF RAGE DOWN MY FACE.

For the record: this was MY car. That I paid for. With my money. I was the only person on ANY of the papers EXCEPT for the 1 single mention of my husband's cell phone number due to logistics. MY car. My husband, at the time, had poor enough credit that he didn't qualify for a cell phone (I didn't know that was POSSIBLE - and yes, he fixed that BEFORE we married, omg), had no money, and had no driver's license.

And THIS, ladies and gentlemen, is how you prompt women to learn how to change their own oil and drive to the garage 10km away instead of putting up with your shit.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #321 on: February 22, 2017, 02:52:15 PM »
RAGE. FLAMES OF RAGE DOWN MY FACE.
I immediately think of this scene from the movie Clue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l32a2f9Vypg

Kitsune

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #322 on: February 22, 2017, 05:18:46 PM »
RAGE. FLAMES OF RAGE DOWN MY FACE.
I immediately think of this scene from the movie Clue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l32a2f9Vypg

Possibly with more screaming. Dead body stays though. ;)

Blonde Lawyer

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #323 on: February 23, 2017, 08:41:47 AM »
I'm not scrolling back now to find the quote but someone asked about dealerships going for volume with ethical sales instead of sleaze.

I have a Nissan that I bought used from Subaru (with amazingly zero hassle) and my local Nissan dealership's service is really the best.  I usually stay clear of service at the dealership but a few friends that have Nissan's swore the local one was one of the good guys.  There is an independent mechanic near my office that I usually but I figured what the heck, I'd give them a shot.  Their oil change and tire rotation is cheaper than even independent non-chain places.  Every four, you get your fifth one free. 

They have found and fixed things at no cost to me while it was under warranty without waiting for me to point out the issue or for a recall notice to be issued.

Just Joe

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #324 on: February 23, 2017, 10:34:48 AM »
I have had good results from the independents here.

We have an independent tire dealer here in town that undersells (at least a little) the big box guys.

They do a great job and I have had mixed results with the big box tire places anyhow.

Can't use the local dealers here. They operate in a whole different financial universe from mine. ;)

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #325 on: February 23, 2017, 11:24:15 AM »
Sorry my post wasn't clear.  I used to use an independent mechanic near my office.  I agreed to give my local Nissan a try.  They were surprisingly cheaper and had better service.  I am no longer a "never service at the dealership" person.  Though I remain cautious.  I'm afraid they lull you with stellar service and prices for a year and then you stop double checking and then they gauge you.  LOL.  I'm paranoid but so far it's been great.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #326 on: February 23, 2017, 11:28:13 AM »
RAGE. FLAMES OF RAGE DOWN MY FACE.
I immediately think of this scene from the movie Clue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l32a2f9Vypg
Love this movie.
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MilesTeg

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #327 on: February 23, 2017, 11:37:16 AM »
Ridiculous things I have recently heard while price comparing for some maintenance work:

Me: What is your price for plug/coil replacement
Stealership: $500
me: <can't stifle the laugh> What, $500 to change some plugs?
Stealership: Yes sir, it's a complex process, it's $150 in parts and $350 in labor.
me: <click>

Spark plugs+coils cost about $10-15 a piece retail, and it's about a 30 minute job for a decent mechanic with a few simple tools (ratchet + spark plug socket).

Never, EVER use a dealership for service. They are often utterly criminal in their over charging. I'm fairly certain this particular dealership uses their service department as a sales tool. Overcharge the shit out of people with older cars so they think more about that shiny new car.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 11:41:51 AM by MilesTeg »

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #328 on: February 23, 2017, 11:54:46 AM »
Ridiculous things I have recently heard while price comparing for some maintenance work:

Me: What is your price for plug/coil replacement
Stealership: $500
me: <can't stifle the laugh> What, $500 to change some plugs?
Stealership: Yes sir, it's a complex process, it's $150 in parts and $350 in labor.
me: <click>

Spark plugs+coils cost about $10-15 a piece retail, and it's about a 30 minute job for a decent mechanic with a few simple tools (ratchet + spark plug socket).

Never, EVER use a dealership for service. They are often utterly criminal in their over charging. I'm fairly certain this particular dealership uses their service department as a sales tool. Overcharge the shit out of people with older cars so they think more about that shiny new car.

I wonder if they're averaging the hourly rate of the really-difficult-to-replace coils/plugs with the right-there-on-top coils/plugs.  My old Ford truck was not a 30 minute job and required specialized tools to even extract the back 4 plugs.  The design is such that Ford *expects* the plugs to break.  (There are a ton of forum threads in Ford forums about prevention of plug breaks.)  Coils were a pain in the back too.  And while there were aftermarket coils in the $9 range, the Motorcraft coils (that Ford would use) are $40+ retail.

It *shouldn't* be more than a 30 minute job.  But bad engineering can change that.
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ketchup

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #329 on: February 23, 2017, 12:20:01 PM »
Ridiculous things I have recently heard while price comparing for some maintenance work:

Me: What is your price for plug/coil replacement
Stealership: $500
me: <can't stifle the laugh> What, $500 to change some plugs?
Stealership: Yes sir, it's a complex process, it's $150 in parts and $350 in labor.
me: <click>

Spark plugs+coils cost about $10-15 a piece retail, and it's about a 30 minute job for a decent mechanic with a few simple tools (ratchet + spark plug socket).

Never, EVER use a dealership for service. They are often utterly criminal in their over charging. I'm fairly certain this particular dealership uses their service department as a sales tool. Overcharge the shit out of people with older cars so they think more about that shiny new car.

I wonder if they're averaging the hourly rate of the really-difficult-to-replace coils/plugs with the right-there-on-top coils/plugs.  My old Ford truck was not a 30 minute job and required specialized tools to even extract the back 4 plugs.  The design is such that Ford *expects* the plugs to break.  (There are a ton of forum threads in Ford forums about prevention of plug breaks.)  Coils were a pain in the back too.  And while there were aftermarket coils in the $9 range, the Motorcraft coils (that Ford would use) are $40+ retail.

It *shouldn't* be more than a 30 minute job.  But bad engineering can change that.
Yeah it definitely varies.  I had a V8 Buick that took me about 2-3 hours (and multiple bleeding knuckles) to change the damn wires/plugs due to really obnoxious placement and everything in the way, but my current 4-cylinder Hyundai was about 20 minutes working at a leisurely pace.  My old 3-cylinder Metro was even simpler, maybe 10 minutes.

MilesTeg

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #330 on: February 23, 2017, 01:30:08 PM »
I wonder if they're averaging the hourly rate of the really-difficult-to-replace coils/plugs with the right-there-on-top coils/plugs.  My old Ford truck was not a 30 minute job and required specialized tools to even extract the back 4 plugs.  The design is such that Ford *expects* the plugs to break.  (There are a ton of forum threads in Ford forums about prevention of plug breaks.)  Coils were a pain in the back too.  And while there were aftermarket coils in the $9 range, the Motorcraft coils (that Ford would use) are $40+ retail.

It *shouldn't* be more than a 30 minute job.  But bad engineering can change that.

Maybe they are, but there's no reason for a dealer to not know how much effort every model takes (at least for the vehicles they sell). The car in question is the 4 plugs right there on top (well, under a replaceable plastic engine cover, gasp!).

Did you mean averaging the cost regardless of individual effort?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 01:33:23 PM by MilesTeg »

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #331 on: February 23, 2017, 03:05:54 PM »
I wonder if they're averaging the hourly rate of the really-difficult-to-replace coils/plugs with the right-there-on-top coils/plugs.  My old Ford truck was not a 30 minute job and required specialized tools to even extract the back 4 plugs.  The design is such that Ford *expects* the plugs to break.  (There are a ton of forum threads in Ford forums about prevention of plug breaks.)  Coils were a pain in the back too.  And while there were aftermarket coils in the $9 range, the Motorcraft coils (that Ford would use) are $40+ retail.

It *shouldn't* be more than a 30 minute job.  But bad engineering can change that.

Maybe they are, but there's no reason for a dealer to not know how much effort every model takes (at least for the vehicles they sell). The car in question is the 4 plugs right there on top (well, under a replaceable plastic engine cover, gasp!).

Did you mean averaging the cost regardless of individual effort?

At some level the dealership model relies heavily on the ignorance of the public to operate at a highly profitable level. I have repeatedly heard comments from industry insiders that there is no real money in selling new cars, but used vehicles sales and the service department make up for it, with a vengeance.

The average owner has no clue if swapping plugs is worth $75, or $750.  Our CRV is an excellent example. I was going to have a dealer service the trans. To follow the maintenance schedule and to be able to have documentation, later down the road, if there is an issue. I called around. Two dealers wanted $99, one wanted $179. All were doing the exact same thing, dumping a bit over 3 qts. of Honda trans. fluid out, and putting the same amount back in. As far as Honda is concerned, there is no filter replacement, dropping the pan, replacing gaskets, etc. Just, dump and refill, it's actually a lot easier and faster than changing the engine oil. I do it myself now, it takes ten minutes, and $28 in material. Every time a victim shows up at a dealer and pays $179 for the service, the tech. makes $10-15 on the job, the parts department charges $40, and the dealership end up with $120-130 for a 20 minute job. Now, keep a twenty bay service center busy, and generate that kind of revenue, and the result is a system where looking you in the eye and quoting $500 to do a job with $80 in parts, and half an hour is shop time, is just part of the game.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #332 on: February 23, 2017, 03:20:39 PM »
I wonder if they're averaging the hourly rate of the really-difficult-to-replace coils/plugs with the right-there-on-top coils/plugs.  My old Ford truck was not a 30 minute job and required specialized tools to even extract the back 4 plugs.  The design is such that Ford *expects* the plugs to break.  (There are a ton of forum threads in Ford forums about prevention of plug breaks.)  Coils were a pain in the back too.  And while there were aftermarket coils in the $9 range, the Motorcraft coils (that Ford would use) are $40+ retail.

It *shouldn't* be more than a 30 minute job.  But bad engineering can change that.

Maybe they are, but there's no reason for a dealer to not know how much effort every model takes (at least for the vehicles they sell). The car in question is the 4 plugs right there on top (well, under a replaceable plastic engine cover, gasp!).

Did you mean averaging the cost regardless of individual effort?

That was what I was wondering... having the poor schmucks with well engineered autos subsidizing the other poor schmucks with stupidly engineered autos. 

I took my PITA to a non-dealer mechanic to have my plugs/coils changed.  I forget what it cost me, but I spent a good 30 minutes just scratching my head and wondering how the hell it would be done.  Whatever they charged me I was happy to pay it.  Gladly, that truck is gone and our current fleet is back to easily accessed engines.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #333 on: February 24, 2017, 12:12:18 PM »
As far as Honda is concerned, there is no filter replacement, dropping the pan, replacing gaskets, etc. Just, dump and refill, it's actually a lot easier and faster than changing the engine oil. I do it myself now, it takes ten minutes, and $28 in material.

Which automatic Honda CR-V doesn't have a filter in the transmission (or gets ignored by the dealer)?

I want to avoid that one on the used market. Seriously.

The inaccessible coils/plugs sometimes I hear of mechanics unbolting engine mounts and rotating/lifting engines to provide more access. I have one of those domestic FWD cars with the inaccessible spark plugs one side. I hope to never need to repeat that maintenance. It cost $12-$15 for parts but it took hours of aggravation. My other cars are four cylinders and the task takes 25 minutes and requires no cussing. 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 12:15:26 PM by Tasty Pinecones »

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #334 on: February 24, 2017, 12:35:27 PM »
Ridiculous things I have recently heard while price comparing for some maintenance work:

Me: What is your price for plug/coil replacement
Stealership: $500
me: <can't stifle the laugh> What, $500 to change some plugs?
Stealership: Yes sir, it's a complex process, it's $150 in parts and $350 in labor.
me: <click>

Spark plugs+coils cost about $10-15 a piece retail, and it's about a 30 minute job for a decent mechanic with a few simple tools (ratchet + spark plug socket).

Never, EVER use a dealership for service. They are often utterly criminal in their over charging. I'm fairly certain this particular dealership uses their service department as a sales tool. Overcharge the shit out of people with older cars so they think more about that shiny new car.

I wonder if they're averaging the hourly rate of the really-difficult-to-replace coils/plugs with the right-there-on-top coils/plugs.  My old Ford truck was not a 30 minute job and required specialized tools to even extract the back 4 plugs.  The design is such that Ford *expects* the plugs to break.  (There are a ton of forum threads in Ford forums about prevention of plug breaks.)  Coils were a pain in the back too.  And while there were aftermarket coils in the $9 range, the Motorcraft coils (that Ford would use) are $40+ retail.

It *shouldn't* be more than a 30 minute job.  But bad engineering can change that.
Yeah it definitely varies.  I had a V8 Buick that took me about 2-3 hours (and multiple bleeding knuckles) to change the damn wires/plugs due to really obnoxious placement and everything in the way, but my current 4-cylinder Hyundai was about 20 minutes working at a leisurely pace.  My old 3-cylinder Metro was even simpler, maybe 10 minutes.

1989 oldsmobile cutlas supreme.  front 2 plugs were ok to reach.  Oldsmobile provided a loop attached to the engine, you put a pry bar on this loop, unbolt the engine, and use the prybar to rotate the engine so you can access the remaining 4 plugs.  I didn't try that one myself.  Our family had a mechanic friend that did car maintenance for cheap at the time.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #335 on: February 24, 2017, 01:24:19 PM »
As far as Honda is concerned, there is no filter replacement, dropping the pan, replacing gaskets, etc. Just, dump and refill, it's actually a lot easier and faster than changing the engine oil. I do it myself now, it takes ten minutes, and $28 in material.

Which automatic Honda CR-V doesn't have a filter in the transmission (or gets ignored by the dealer)?

I want to avoid that one on the used market. Seriously.



The lack of a filter, and the suggestion that dealers are avoiding doing the work correctly, are both assumptions on your part. A transmission that lasts nearly forever with scheduled maintenance is pretty much SOP in the CRVs.  If you have a problem with a product that is extremely reliable, when give a modest amount of factory recommended service, don't buy one. Seriously.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #336 on: February 24, 2017, 02:20:24 PM »
As far as Honda is concerned, there is no filter replacement, dropping the pan, replacing gaskets, etc. Just, dump and refill, it's actually a lot easier and faster than changing the engine oil. I do it myself now, it takes ten minutes, and $28 in material.

Which automatic Honda CR-V doesn't have a filter in the transmission (or gets ignored by the dealer)?

I want to avoid that one on the used market. Seriously.



The lack of a filter, and the suggestion that dealers are avoiding doing the work correctly, are both assumptions on your part. A transmission that lasts nearly forever with scheduled maintenance is pretty much SOP in the CRVs.  If you have a problem with a product that is extremely reliable, when give a modest amount of factory recommended service, don't buy one. Seriously.

I don't know the CRV... but a whole lot of auto tranny filters are not much more than a fine mesh screen.  There's not always much to replace.  It's meant to catch metal filings but not meant to screen out the dirt fines and carbon like an oil filter.  And a lot of modern cars actually DO NOT have an official service interval for auto transmission fluid. 
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #337 on: February 24, 2017, 02:31:58 PM »
I want to avoid that one on the used market. Seriously.
It's a lot of recent Honda vehicles, including the Odysseys.  There *is* a filter that can be replaced, but doing so requires removing the transmission, as the filter is accessed from inside the transmission, on the side where it mates to the engine.

With the car repair work I've been doing lately, I think what I want in a car is a longitudinal engine (so that timing belts are easy to change), fewer cylinders rather than more, and a manual transmission.  There's a lot to be said for maintainability. :)

Just Joe

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #338 on: February 24, 2017, 02:42:35 PM »
As far as Honda is concerned, there is no filter replacement, dropping the pan, replacing gaskets, etc. Just, dump and refill, it's actually a lot easier and faster than changing the engine oil. I do it myself now, it takes ten minutes, and $28 in material.

Which automatic Honda CR-V doesn't have a filter in the transmission (or gets ignored by the dealer)?

I want to avoid that one on the used market. Seriously.



The lack of a filter, and the suggestion that dealers are avoiding doing the work correctly, are both assumptions on your part. A transmission that lasts nearly forever with scheduled maintenance is pretty much SOP in the CRVs.  If you have a problem with a product that is extremely reliable, when give a modest amount of factory recommended service, don't buy one. Seriously.

I didn't say they didn't have a filter. I asked which one - so I can verify this for myself. A quick look at Rock Auto's catalog shows filters for CRV automatics at least for the random years that I looked for.

I'll admit I have trust issues especially with dealers who have lied to me many times. I don't trust independents much more but I have not caught them in lies like the dealers. With all shops I want to be informed before I deal with them. I've worked on my cars roughly 40 years now and have had cars last well beyond 300K miles so i must be doing something correctly. 

Now there was supposedly a Honda transmission in some of the V-6 people haulers (Pilot, Odyssey, Ridgeline) for a year or so that did not age well. If I decide to buy one of those vehicles - I will find out if it was rumor or real. The rumor said that there was a non-user serviceable filter. I would avoid these vehicles if the rumor was real. My question about the CR-V was the first step of this process for that model.

I like Hondas and have owned several. We also have a couple of CR-Vs in the family that have been super. Don't know if we dodged a bullet (one has a clutch, the other does not).

Edit: Ah, I see that Zolotiyeruki has heard the same things. I have a domestic automatic and it's filter is much like Spork described. I do service both the fluid and the filter screen at purchase time (used car) b/c I can't be sure when it was done and then again however many miles later the manual suggests. Its cheap insurance b/c I do it myself.

Did this once on a pickup truck I drove and found chucks of metal in the pan. Was a wakeup call to sell it soon. Next buyer knew about the problem I assure you but I did not want to make the repairs myself.

Planning to do the same fluid/filter change on another of our cars this weekend.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 02:49:32 PM by Tasty Pinecones »

paddedhat

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #339 on: February 24, 2017, 04:06:05 PM »
As far as Honda is concerned, there is no filter replacement, dropping the pan, replacing gaskets, etc. Just, dump and refill, it's actually a lot easier and faster than changing the engine oil. I do it myself now, it takes ten minutes, and $28 in material.

Which automatic Honda CR-V doesn't have a filter in the transmission (or gets ignored by the dealer)?

I want to avoid that one on the used market. Seriously.



The lack of a filter, and the suggestion that dealers are avoiding doing the work correctly, are both assumptions on your part. A transmission that lasts nearly forever with scheduled maintenance is pretty much SOP in the CRVs.  If you have a problem with a product that is extremely reliable, when give a modest amount of factory recommended service, don't buy one. Seriously.

I don't know the CRV... but a whole lot of auto tranny filters are not much more than a fine mesh screen.  There's not always much to replace.  It's meant to catch metal filings but not meant to screen out the dirt fines and carbon like an oil filter.  And a lot of modern cars actually DO NOT have an official service interval for auto transmission fluid.

The last of the geared automatic CRVs (up to 2014) have intervals of 30K on the fluid change. Honda does not have a serviceable filter on that trans. and only calls for drain and fill, no flush machine allowed. AS a DIY task, if you can safely walk and pick your nose at the same time, you can tackle this.  I know that the company had issues with their V-6 and van autos, but their other stuff is basically bulletproof. I've got a buddy who is a great independent mechanic. He always says that if everybody drove CRVs, he would be out of a job. He claims that anybody who even makes a half-assed attempt to take care of a CRV will typically be in the second decade of ownership, and past 200K miles before it needs anything but consumable maintenance items. They rarely fail or break.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #340 on: February 24, 2017, 04:10:33 PM »
Now there was supposedly a Honda transmission in some of the V-6 people haulers (Pilot, Odyssey, Ridgeline) for a year or so that did not age well. If I decide to buy one of those vehicles - I will find out if it was rumor or real. The rumor said that there was a non-user serviceable filter. I would avoid these vehicles if the rumor was real. My question about the CR-V was the first step of this process for that model.
Those were the V6's used in Odysseys and Accords in the 99-04 time range.  Those actually had an easily-replaceable filter.  The non-serviceable ones are newer.

ETwagon

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #341 on: February 24, 2017, 10:10:21 PM »
Snake pit...er... car sales training video.  "When that title comes back to you it acts just like a share of stock"

 https://youtu.be/O1eB8ji7Kzg

 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 10:22:23 PM by ETwagon »

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #342 on: February 25, 2017, 08:30:38 AM »
Snake pit...er... car sales training video.  "When that title comes back to you it acts just like a share of stock"

 https://youtu.be/O1eB8ji7Kzg

Wow... After all the comments saying...
Quote from: Josh Calbert
at that payment he paid almost 72000 for a 55000 dollar truck. 25000 might be retail with maybe 17 trade in value so he still paid 57k like i said in one of your previous videos smoke and mirrors lmao
and
Quote from: ddss6
$996/mo over 72 months for a $55k vehicle? That's 9.15% interest. Yikes.

He just responds:
Quote from: Steve Richards
You don't have the whole picture.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #343 on: February 25, 2017, 10:04:45 AM »
The last of the geared automatic CRVs (up to 2014) have intervals of 30K on the fluid change. Honda does not have a serviceable filter on that trans. and only calls for drain and fill, no flush machine allowed. AS a DIY task, if you can safely walk and pick your nose at the same time, you can tackle this.  I know that the company had issues with their V-6 and van autos, but their other stuff is basically bulletproof. I've got a buddy who is a great independent mechanic. He always says that if everybody drove CRVs, he would be out of a job. He claims that anybody who even makes a half-assed attempt to take care of a CRV will typically be in the second decade of ownership, and past 200K miles before it needs anything but consumable maintenance items. They rarely fail or break.

As a matter of fact I'm replacing the engine in our CR-V today. Lasted 300K miles before the oil pump went out. More cost effective to install a JDM engine than it is to buy a replacement oil pump for $200+ for a wornout engine. Well, actually the engine is still good (switched off immediately) but worn. Transmission and chassis are still good too. Still on the original clutch which I will be replacing if the replacement engine's clutch is worn (shouldn't be, low mileage).

One of the realities of the next generation of vehicles is that very few are still available with a manual transmission. DW and I prefer a manual transmission. So with the four cylinder engines, usually the CVT is the transmission by default. The first 100K I think they are fairly bulletproof. If though a person keeps a car 250K miles or more, I expect it to need an expensive rebuild. Maybe earlier if that vehicle is used to tow a little - like ours always has. So the next step is to go looking to see how the "severe use" crowd gets along with these transmissions. Yeah - severe use is relative to the kind of vehicle. ;)

paddedhat

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #344 on: February 25, 2017, 01:53:56 PM »
well, there are still plenty of 4cyl units out there with geared ( non-CVT) transmissions, and some builders may never head towards them, using 8-9 or more gears in their autos instead. As for costs, it can be pretty surprising. Many shops will no longer repair or rebuild transmissions, and will install replacement units from large remanufacturing companies. In the last few years I have had a clutch done on a VW and a trans. replaced on a Focus. The trans. was about $600 more. I would always question the durability of a CVT compared to a traditional auto.  Nissan was an early adopter of the CVTs. I know the service writer at a Nissan dealer. She claims that their CVTs are not only pretty pathetic, but they are essentially disposable. They install several of them a week, most are customer pay, since they seem to last long enough to squeak through the warranty.

Just Joe

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #345 on: February 26, 2017, 08:02:59 AM »
Yeah there was a CVT in the extended family that went out twice before 80K miles. Something was wrong with the design I suppose. Scary when manual transmissions can last hundreds of thousands of miles while a CVT can't make it to 100K in some circumstances. Yeah, I'll row my own gears happily. ;)

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #346 on: February 27, 2017, 08:07:38 AM »
So in trying to live a more Mustachian life, my fiance and I decided that we needed to consolidate down from two vehicles to just one, and utilize the public transportation options around our town. There wasn't anything particularly bad about either vehicle, both paid off, reliable, and pretty fuel efficient. We actually ended up selling my car because the interior was in much better shape, and we figured we could get more money for it. Just finished that off this weekend actually.

The point of all that in this thread is that we needed to get a spare key for my fiance's Camry. Currently, she only has one copy of the original master key and a key fob. So naturally I decided we should get at least 1 spare, especially if this is going to be our only car going forward. We decided to go down to the Toyota dealership and see what the protocol for this was, and if all was good then get a copy made.

Quick digression, and I know this isn't all dealerships, but when did these places become campuses? I mean, I had to follow signs for the appropriate type of service I was coming there for and you pretty much had to drive from one to another. I've seen accredited academic institutions that have a smaller geographic footprint than this place.

So we wait around for the "parts guy" we'd been directed to finish his phone call (30% work / 70% screwing around) and then explain our situation. First part that was a bit odd, the kind of exaggerated air being pushed through pursed lips sound when I explained the make/model we were working with (2002 Camry), like that made his job harder by being an older car or something. It's a 15 year old Camry, not some crazy import, ya know?  The key copy part was straightforward, check the VIN with some California registry and if all checks out then get a copy made right there. But the key fob... whoooo boy. Got to schedule a time with the service department, make sure to bring all existing key fobs, wait around for 30-1hr, and if all goes well then you're finished. And if there are any issues, well then it'll take more time. Oh yeah, hour of service time ($80) plus cost of additional key fob ($50) was gonna be $130 for just one more key fob it it went well.  So, without being rude I very much let him know we were not interested in getting a key fob from the dealership.

I understand that sometimes dealerships do things in less time-effective ways in order to utilize available services they can charge for, but cost aside, the ineffectiveness in that workflow for adding a key fob for an existing car is painful. It's not my area of expertise so I'm hoping there's some security or technical reason they're at least doing it this way.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #347 on: February 27, 2017, 08:10:05 AM »
Do you really need another key fob?  If your car keys don't have little security chips in them, you can just get a few copies made at your local hardware store.  It's a pretty cheap service.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #348 on: February 27, 2017, 08:13:16 AM »
Looks like you can program a new key fob yourself. For example:
https://northcoastkeyless.com/2002-toyota-camry-keyless-entry-remote-programming-instructions/

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #349 on: February 27, 2017, 08:16:44 AM »
Do you really need another key fob?  If your car keys don't have little security chips in them, you can just get a few copies made at your local hardware store.  It's a pretty cheap service.
Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your point of view), most cars from the last 15 years or so have come with transponder keys, which help deter theft, but also make replacement (or duplicate) keys far more expensive.  Personally, I think car makers should give people the ability to disable the transponder functionality after 10 years or so, so you don't have to spend $100 on a new key for your 10-year-old car that nobody is going to bother trying to steal.

You *can* usually program your own key fobs, but not your own keys.