Author Topic: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do  (Read 48898 times)

sokoloff

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #100 on: January 02, 2017, 09:45:20 AM »
Why is it OK for there to not be a middle ground, and for there to be nothing on the market to serve the senior citizen who only uses it to get groceries or go to doctor's appointments? I'm thinking: golf cart with doors. Limited range, limited speed, not allowed on major streets or highways.
You're describing something that already exists:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle

Loren Ver

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #101 on: January 02, 2017, 11:17:14 AM »
Ugh, buying cars.  Dealerships can be funny if you have time to waste.

When I was looking at replacing my non-functional little ford ranger with a functional little ford ranger.  Rangers are great sizes for hauling large sheets of wood and drywall.  I found a dealership  that had one for a good price (<6000).  Turns out the one online wasn't going to work.  The sales lady tried to convince me that a Ford F150 crew cab is a small truck....  When I said it was huge and the bed was too small for hauling wood, the assistant sales guy tried to convince me that a ranger couldn't carry a sheet of plywood.  DH and I stared at each other and DH said to me, "then how have we been hauling all this wood for years?"  We walked and had the old ranger fixed.

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Joggernot

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #102 on: January 02, 2017, 11:22:14 AM »
...I'm also wondering why we've got such a collective black-and-white mentality about 4-wheeled vehicle safety, when we routinely accept the notion that there's more than one kind of 2-wheeled device available and that some have constraints on when, where, and how they can be used.

Why is it OK for there to not be a middle ground, and for there to be nothing on the market to serve the senior citizen who only uses it to get groceries or go to doctor's appointments? I'm thinking: golf cart with doors. Limited range, limited speed, not allowed on major streets or highways.
Come to Rockport, TX and you can drive your modified golf cart on streets with a speed limit of 35 mph or lower.  We have one (no doors, but have seat belts) and use it for groceries, errands, the beach, going to events, etc...basically anywhere within range of the batteries.  There are quite a few mechanical restrictions (including no faster than 20 mph, lights) and the road restrictions and only in daylight.  We drive along the edge of the lane to make it easier for people to pass.  We've also modified it to go the full 20 mph, not the standard 15 mph.  If it let's me, I'll attach a copy of our law.

Am I afraid of being hit?  Not more than usual.  I rode scooters and m/c's from age 14 to 61 and was never in an accident.

act0fgod

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #103 on: January 02, 2017, 02:02:35 PM »
I've been looking at getting a volt for the last 4 months.  I check cars.com a couple times a month and have contacted the dealerships with the lowest online price within a couple hundred miles of where I live.  I've yet to have one agree on the price listed on cars.com.

One of my best friends went to the USAA online car buying site.  Basically an interface with the bank where dealerships list no haggle prices and you click and say you want the car so USAA starts the loan if you need one.  My friend went to the dealership after clicking on the vehicle he wanted at the price he wanted.  The dealership says nope we can't give you that price we'll give it to you for a thousand more if you're paying cash.  He shows them the price on USAA and truecar.com.  He calls USAA up and says what's the deal.  USAA basically tells him he can file a complaint and the dealership may loose their ability to market on the USAA car buying program.  Eventually the dealership brings the price down to within $300 of the USAA no haggle price.

Dave1442397

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #104 on: January 02, 2017, 03:37:41 PM »
I've been looking at getting a volt for the last 4 months.  I check cars.com a couple times a month and have contacted the dealerships with the lowest online price within a couple hundred miles of where I live.  I've yet to have one agree on the price listed on cars.com.

One of my best friends went to the USAA online car buying site.  Basically an interface with the bank where dealerships list no haggle prices and you click and say you want the car so USAA starts the loan if you need one.  My friend went to the dealership after clicking on the vehicle he wanted at the price he wanted.  The dealership says nope we can't give you that price we'll give it to you for a thousand more if you're paying cash.  He shows them the price on USAA and truecar.com.  He calls USAA up and says what's the deal.  USAA basically tells him he can file a complaint and the dealership may loose their ability to market on the USAA car buying program.  Eventually the dealership brings the price down to within $300 of the USAA no haggle price.

That sounds like a case of false advertising to me, and something that may leave the dealer open to legal action.

When I bought my current car, it was on Autotrader, eBay and cars.com, and they had it listed on the dealer's site too. The various prices had a $5000 spread, with the lowest price being the eBay listing.

I went to see the car, liked it, and said I'd buy it at the eBay price. They balked at that, saying it was only a "starting bid".  I told them I could push the "buy it now" button on my phone and cost them money in eBay commissions, or they could just give me the damn car at the advertised price.

It was a very good price. I was still seeing 2010 models with more miles at the same price two years later.

Spork

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #105 on: January 02, 2017, 03:40:53 PM »
I've been looking at getting a volt for the last 4 months.  I check cars.com a couple times a month and have contacted the dealerships with the lowest online price within a couple hundred miles of where I live.  I've yet to have one agree on the price listed on cars.com.

One of my best friends went to the USAA online car buying site.  Basically an interface with the bank where dealerships list no haggle prices and you click and say you want the car so USAA starts the loan if you need one.  My friend went to the dealership after clicking on the vehicle he wanted at the price he wanted.  The dealership says nope we can't give you that price we'll give it to you for a thousand more if you're paying cash.  He shows them the price on USAA and truecar.com.  He calls USAA up and says what's the deal.  USAA basically tells him he can file a complaint and the dealership may loose their ability to market on the USAA car buying program.  Eventually the dealership brings the price down to within $300 of the USAA no haggle price.

That sounds like a case of false advertising to me, and something that may leave the dealer open to legal action.

When I bought my current car, it was on Autotrader, eBay and cars.com, and they had it listed on the dealer's site too. The various prices had a $5000 spread, with the lowest price being the eBay listing.

I went to see the car, liked it, and said I'd buy it at the eBay price. They balked at that, saying it was only a "starting bid".  I told them I could push the "buy it now" button on my phone and cost them money in eBay commissions, or they could just give me the damn car at the advertised price.

It was a very good price. I was still seeing 2010 models with more miles at the same price two years later.

Totally agree with Dave.  I wouldn't pay $1 more than an advertised price.  I'd be out the door.  If I was quick thinking enough, I'd try to get them on camera saying they wouldn't take the ad price.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #106 on: January 02, 2017, 05:06:00 PM »
Why is it OK for there to not be a middle ground, and for there to be nothing on the market to serve the senior citizen who only uses it to get groceries or go to doctor's appointments? I'm thinking: golf cart with doors. Limited range, limited speed, not allowed on major streets or highways.

Quote
I'm also wondering why we've got such a collective black-and-white mentality about 4-wheeled vehicle safety, when we routinely accept the notion that there's more than one kind of 2-wheeled device available and that some have constraints on when, where, and how they can be used.

One big difference is it's a lot easier to distinguish, for example, motordonorcyles from scooters from 4 wheeled vehicles. Society accepts that motordonorcyles mostly because they are rare compared to a 4 wheeled car and the risks are readily apparent to anyone with at least 2 brain cells to rub together. Moreover, it's relatively easy to make allowances for a scooter to use the side of the road and/or bike lane, but not as easy to make allowances for something like a golf cart at golf cart speeds. Roads would have to be re-engineered to allow for three different vehicle types.

As far as vehicle safety, even at relatively low speeds crashes can still happen at very deadly energies because of vehicles driving in opposite directions. The posted video only has the cars going ~35 mph and the POS vehicle still folds like a tent crushing its occupant. In order to make roads safe for things like you propose, you just can't have them sharing the road with regular 4 wheeled vehicles.

Nobody needed to reeingineer the roads to accommodate the Amish buggies, which are even more fragile and powered by horses, which routinely share roads with 4-wheeled vehicles. Nor have the roads been reeingineered to accommodate bicycles or motorcycles.

The roads don't need to be "made safe" for lighter vehicles. My entire point is that safe driving circumstances for light cars already exist and in fact constitute the majority of driving surfaces in most towns and rural areas.
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MilesTeg

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #107 on: January 02, 2017, 05:47:17 PM »

Nobody needed to reeingineer the roads to accommodate the Amish buggies, which are even more fragile and powered by horses, which routinely share roads with 4-wheeled vehicles. Nor have the roads been reeingineered to accommodate bicycles or motorcycles.

The roads don't need to be "made safe" for lighter vehicles. My entire point is that safe driving circumstances for light cars already exist and in fact constitute the majority of driving surfaces in most towns and rural areas.

Amish buggies are only tolerated because we literally have to in order to act in a constitutional manner.

As far as bicycles, last time I checked there was indeed re-engineering (perhaps an overstatement) of roads in order to safely accomidate them:


paddedhat

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #108 on: January 02, 2017, 07:40:33 PM »
Couple of points to ponder for those not living in Amish country. And by "Amish country" I mean thirty thousand Amish in one county, not a few families in BFE.

#1  Buggy accidents are not uncommon, and losing 4-6 souls in a horrific crash with a motor vehicle happens, more regularly that you would imagine. Amish view this as all part of God's will. 

#2 Thanks to LED technology, buggies are now one amazing light show after dark. They flash, strobe and can be seen for miles. If you rear end one after dark, you are either blind, or drunk.

#3 Buggies do a metric shit ton of damage to roads. Technically, steel shoed horses do, but they are a big part of the whole "horse and buggy" concept. I imagine that it's tough to get many miles on the buggy without one.  Heavily used blacktop roads have a  16" wide, shallow depression worn into a horse path, and the steel wheels buff the macadam to a high gloss. Some rural townships will repave just the narrow gully that the horses create, to re-level the road surface. I have seen the concrete road surface of a state highway bridge that was so heavily pounded by horses, they had ground the surface down to the point that the rebar was exposed.  The other amazing thing to see is local Mennonite farmers who run steel wheels on their tractors. They also do a nice job of  damaging roads. Now when it comes to why they can use tractors, but not rubber tires, well......... I'll leave that to them to explain.

Joggernot

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #109 on: January 03, 2017, 11:51:13 AM »
As far as bicycles, last time I checked there was indeed re-engineering (perhaps an overstatement) of roads in order to safely accomidate them:


Down here there are no bike lanes.  Most roads don't have shoulders, unless they are main highways.  The Farm to Market (FM) roads may have shoulders in town, but not outside the city limits.  We still share the road and I haven't seen or read about a car/bicycle accident since moving here.  Motorcycle/car accident...yes.

Spork

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #110 on: January 03, 2017, 12:24:15 PM »
As far as bicycles, last time I checked there was indeed re-engineering (perhaps an overstatement) of roads in order to safely accomidate them:


Down here there are no bike lanes.  Most roads don't have shoulders, unless they are main highways.  The Farm to Market (FM) roads may have shoulders in town, but not outside the city limits.  We still share the road and I haven't seen or read about a car/bicycle accident since moving here.  Motorcycle/car accident...yes.

FWIW, we get probably 2 car/bike collisions a year.  I'm Texas, too, but a ways north/east of you.  We have similar roads as to what you describe.
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gimp

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #111 on: January 03, 2017, 12:28:13 PM »
Grim, allow me to answer some of your points.

The problem with allowing shit-mobiles masquerading as real cars on the roads is two-fold.

One, if the car is capable of highway speeds, you will not be able to ban them from the highway. It simply won't work. They look enough like real cars to pass, people will use them on the highway regardless of legality, and it's going to be a real mess because people are idiots. The only way to get around that is to limit their top speed to ~35, which is already a thing that exists and you can go out and buy such a vehicle right now.

Two, the choice - now, you may say, well, we can simply sell these less safe cars and make sure everyone is informed that they're rolling death traps, and of course nobody would spend their money on them when they're for highway use. That's all very well and libertarian, but it is simply not how life works - dealerships will be convincing people to buy new instead of used, lying about the danger involved, and so on. People will convince themselves that they "deserve" a new car and would rather have new instead of used for the same price. And so on and so on. This is why regulations exist for many safety-related items like seat belts - people are fucking idiots and eventually we all get together and decide that enough is enough, people are dying for no good reason, and it benefits society to make it stop.

So we have minimum acceptable safety standards for four-wheeled production cars.

Mind you, nothing stops you from buying a kit car or similar - something that basically has a tube chassis (or sometimes fancier), suspension, drivetrain, and nothing else. Super light, super fast, super fun, and it'll kill you. That's fine if you build it in your garage or if you buy it from a boutique, limited production manufacturer. These types of cars are allowed specifically because anyone buying one or building one has a bunch of money and is knowledgeable about cars and has done research. Normal families don't buy them, kids don't turn into a bloody mess inside of them, because they're toys. There are no dealerships trying to convince families to buy them, nobody is pretending they're anything but a fun death trap. Much like motorcycles, it's very much a "you do you" situation that works only because the numbers are so small, because the drivers are all enthusiasts, and because they're generally used only in the best situations (dry ground, warm tires, good visibility, low traffic.)

As for winter tires, winter tires are not a safety item in Florida, so nobody is mandating that you use winter tires in Florida. It's that simple. Winter tires are a safety item in other parts of the country, and guess what? Their use is mandated! Here in the sierras, you have to have AWD/4WD, proper all-season tires, winter tires, or chains, depending on the snow severity. In other places, winter-capable tires are required by law between certain months. Bringing up Florida is a red herring, a strawman - Florida doesn't see a significant amount of snow, ice, or even sub-zero temperatures, so it's not an issue to drive on basic all-seasons year round; with a careful foot and careful distance keeping, even high performance summer tires do just fine in the coldest Florida winter despite having the traction of rubber pucks. Try that shit in the sierras with snow on the ground and you'll die. Hence laws.

Horse-and-buggies are a weird case - they're allowed on the roads essentially due to the first amendment rights of the amish. Despite that, deaths (especially in years past, when they weren't decked out in lights) were common. They're destructive, dangerous, and shitty (literally), and the only reason we really allow them is because of weird religious bullshit and lots of tradition (and shitloads of road signs, and fairly limited impact because very few areas in the countries have buggies on the roads.)

So I guess if you want, start a main-stream religion that demands that you drive shitty deathtrap cars on the highway.

MilesTeg

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #112 on: January 03, 2017, 01:51:12 PM »
Down here there are no bike lanes.  Most roads don't have shoulders, unless they are main highways.  The Farm to Market (FM) roads may have shoulders in town, but not outside the city limits.  We still share the road and I haven't seen or read about a car/bicycle accident since moving here.  Motorcycle/car accident...yes.

In similar news, I haven't heard or seen or read about an automobile accident in several years in my town (pop 150k). Though, I have see a couple shrines to dead biker on roads without bike lanes. Apparently my town has solved the issue of car accidents! I hadn't realized that until just now.


Joggernot

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #113 on: January 03, 2017, 03:23:28 PM »
Down here there are no bike lanes.  Most roads don't have shoulders, unless they are main highways.  The Farm to Market (FM) roads may have shoulders in town, but not outside the city limits.  We still share the road and I haven't seen or read about a car/bicycle accident since moving here.  Motorcycle/car accident...yes.

In similar news, I haven't heard or seen or read about an automobile accident in several years in my town (pop 150k). Though, I have see a couple shrines to dead biker on roads without bike lanes. Apparently my town has solved the issue of car accidents! I hadn't realized that until just now.
There are few m/c accidents that don't involve a car somehow.  Exception is the xxxxx rockets and their stunt rides and curve drifting.  Down here a roadside "shrine" uses a Spanish word, "deconses" (spelled wrong).  Alcohol plays well for both car and m/c accidents.  When I rode I was the most defensive rider on the road.  Saved me a couple time to be ready to stop when no one else was stopping.

Sorry, we're off topic.  Where's the foam retardant?

Just Joe

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #114 on: January 03, 2017, 03:41:28 PM »
You know how dealership salesmen descend upon you when you drive onto the lot, since they're all looking for commission?

If you want to just shop, try riding a bicycle to the dealer. The salesmen want nothing to do with you.

Or arrive in something old - even if still quite presentable. Appearances really count for something with that bunch. I hate dealers. I buy my OEM parts online and either install them myself or hire an independent shop to do it for me. 

Metric Mouse

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #115 on: January 04, 2017, 07:09:26 AM »

Nobody needed to reeingineer the roads to accommodate the Amish buggies, which are even more fragile and powered by horses, which routinely share roads with 4-wheeled vehicles. Nor have the roads been reeingineered to accommodate bicycles or motorcycles.

The roads don't need to be "made safe" for lighter vehicles. My entire point is that safe driving circumstances for light cars already exist and in fact constitute the majority of driving surfaces in most towns and rural areas.

Amish buggies are only tolerated because we literally have to in order to act in a constitutional manner.

As far as bicycles, last time I checked there was indeed re-engineering (perhaps an overstatement) of roads in order to safely accomidate them:



That has to be the widest bike lane I've ever seen.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2017, 09:00:25 AM »
I'm amazed that they actually left sufficient room for parked cars to open their doors without killing someone riding by.....

Here in Seattle, the big new thing seems to be to put little floppy "candlestick" things between the car lane and the bike lane to try to reduce driver impingement on the bike lane.  The only problem is, within a couple of weeks of the bike lanes opening up, most of the "candlesticks" have been plowed over/broken off by cars.  Which makes me pretty darn scared to use the bike lanes, since clearly drivers don't give a shit about staying in their lane....
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Just Joe

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2017, 02:10:45 PM »
Man, I wish we had golf cart / bike trails to use to get across town. I'd pedal or use a cart every day it wasn't snowing. Its absurd to drive around our little town in a "big" car capable of 'round the globe travel. No point in driving a 3000 lb car to fetch a gallon of milk or haul two adults a few miles this way or that.

Really we only do it b/c bicycles here are dangerous (no reliable sidewalks, no bike lanes, no shoulder, early darkness half the year, idiot drivers) and carts are illegal due to their speed limitations. 

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2017, 02:27:34 PM »
I'm hearing your points, folks, and thanks for the heads up about the buggy accidents in particular.

My big concern is that every new anti-idiot innovation we come up with (and this isn't just a problem limited to cars) simply helps inspire people to new heights of idiocy. The phrase "moral hazard" is popping up in my mind right now, and I think there's a good chance our widespread foam-padding might be a factor behind risk-taking behavior.

Also, I'm worried about our society's widespread stupidity problem.

Consider, for example, the root cause behind a stupid person driving a souped-up golf cart, Tata, or similar not-safe-for-highway-speeds vehicle on the highway. We can all imagine it happening. But it's not just the vehicle that creates the problem. It's also the stupidity. A person not suffering from stupidity wouldn't take the Go-Kart on the Interstate. For the big failure to happen, we need both the critical ingredients, plus a bit of random stuff like other vehicles, rain, unforeseen circumstances, and a bunch of stuff that is bound to happen sooner or later.

Now I see that we can partially address the problem by taking away one ingredient in the mess... the vehicle... requiring the stupid person to purchase a safer vehicle that might partly mitigate his or her imbecility or at least make a stupidity-induced wreck more survivable. But the stupid is still out there, and now it's got something heavier.

I'm hoping (vainly, perhaps) for a way to reduce the amount of stupidity, or at least keep it from increasing. Now it could just be my antisocial tendencies acting up, but at times I fantasize about a Darwinian approach in which stupidity could be more fatal to its possessor.
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MilesTeg

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2017, 02:37:54 PM »
I'm hearing your points, folks, and thanks for the heads up about the buggy accidents in particular.

My big concern is that every new anti-idiot innovation we come up with (and this isn't just a problem limited to cars) simply helps inspire people to new heights of idiocy. The phrase "moral hazard" is popping up in my mind right now, and I think there's a good chance our widespread foam-padding might be a factor behind risk-taking behavior.

Also, I'm worried about our society's widespread stupidity problem.

Consider, for example, the root cause behind a stupid person driving a souped-up golf cart, Tata, or similar not-safe-for-highway-speeds vehicle on the highway. We can all imagine it happening. But it's not just the vehicle that creates the problem. It's also the stupidity. A person not suffering from stupidity wouldn't take the Go-Kart on the Interstate. For the big failure to happen, we need both the critical ingredients, plus a bit of random stuff like other vehicles, rain, unforeseen circumstances, and a bunch of stuff that is bound to happen sooner or later.

Now I see that we can partially address the problem by taking away one ingredient in the mess... the vehicle... requiring the stupid person to purchase a safer vehicle that might partly mitigate his or her imbecility or at least make a stupidity-induced wreck more survivable. But the stupid is still out there, and now it's got something heavier.

I'm hoping (vainly, perhaps) for a way to reduce the amount of stupidity, or at least keep it from increasing. Now it could just be my antisocial tendencies acting up, but at times I fantasize about a Darwinian approach in which stupidity could be more fatal to its possessor.

I don't see it as protecting people from their stupidity, I see it as protecting ME from other people's stupidity. Both from direct harm caused to me (say losing control of a poorly engineered car causing an accident with me) or indirect harm caused to me (in the form of higher society costs for car insurance, emergency responders, medical facilities, etc.).

And, of course, the "me" includes not my my person, but anyone else not capable of or allowed to make the decision about safety such as minor in a POS vehicle or other similar. If the decision to buy an inherently unsafe car ONLY affected the person making that decision (and with full disclosure) I would have no problem with it. Unfortunately it's just not how it works in the real world.

It doesn't matter how obvious the danger is, there are plenty of people willing to engage in the activity. See: motordonorcycles.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 03:19:22 PM by MilesTeg »

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2017, 02:47:07 PM »
I'm hearing your points, folks, and thanks for the heads up about the buggy accidents in particular.

My big concern is that every new anti-idiot innovation we come up with (and this isn't just a problem limited to cars) simply helps inspire people to new heights of idiocy. The phrase "moral hazard" is popping up in my mind right now, and I think there's a good chance our widespread foam-padding might be a factor behind risk-taking behavior.

Also, I'm worried about our society's widespread stupidity problem.

Consider, for example, the root cause behind a stupid person driving a souped-up golf cart, Tata, or similar not-safe-for-highway-speeds vehicle on the highway. We can all imagine it happening. But it's not just the vehicle that creates the problem. It's also the stupidity. A person not suffering from stupidity wouldn't take the Go-Kart on the Interstate. For the big failure to happen, we need both the critical ingredients, plus a bit of random stuff like other vehicles, rain, unforeseen circumstances, and a bunch of stuff that is bound to happen sooner or later.

Now I see that we can partially address the problem by taking away one ingredient in the mess... the vehicle... requiring the stupid person to purchase a safer vehicle that might partly mitigate his or her imbecility or at least make a stupidity-induced wreck more survivable. But the stupid is still out there, and now it's got something heavier.

I'm hoping (vainly, perhaps) for a way to reduce the amount of stupidity, or at least keep it from increasing. Now it could just be my antisocial tendencies acting up, but at times I fantasize about a Darwinian approach in which stupidity could be more fatal to its possessor.

I don't see it as protecting people from their stupidity, I see it as protecting ME from other people's stupidity.

Bingo.

The introduction of lane-departure warnings, radar cruise control and auto emergency braking (to name just a few) are all things that could protect me if another driver falls asleep at the wheel, gets distracted by their kids in the backseat, or starts texting.

I don't believe we can out-legislate or out-tech stupidity, and I don't believe that driver aids replace defensive driving, but more people are likely to buy a car with the above tech than they are to undergo advanced driver training.

gimp

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2017, 03:53:15 PM »
I agree as well.

There are a lot of new beeps and boops, new safety features that I think are garbage, things that no real driver needs. Lane departure warning. Automatic braking. Stuff like that.

And I won't bloody well be putting those on my car.

However, I am happy to have other people have those things. As MilesTeg has said, those things protect me from stupidity. I'm glad to have it. I don't swerve out of my lane, but other people do, so lane departure for other people is just lovely.

On the other hand, there are safety features that only the ignorant argue against. ABS is one. Traction control, and electronic stability control (or active handling, as it's called in my car) is another. Backup cameras are great, though I hate the center dashboard screen, apart from that, they're great. There is literally no downside to having ABS. You cannot pump your brakes better than a good ABS module. There is no downside to having traction control (with an option to disable it for when you're on the track or carving canyons); same for ESC. These things save your fucking ass when you'd otherwise end up sideways. There is no downside to a camera that shows you what's behind your bumper, though some implementations admittedly suck (but then, it's still a fairly new feature.)

Having ABS doesn't make you a monkey who can't properly brake. It saves even the best drivers on areas of terrible traction - it can save you on gravel, on standing water, on black ice. Certainly there are shitty drivers who use the brake as a binary switch, slamming it at the last possible moment to cause their ABS to activate. Now, you can argue that it's ABS that allows them to brake poorly. It's really not. If ABS didn't exist, they'd still slam the brakes, but they'd slide a bit. Maybe they'd leave a little more distance for the slide. That doesn't make me feel safer - they're still monkeys, but now their car makes us (them, me) safer.

And all that is at the cost of, what, twenty pounds and a hundred fifty dollars? ABS is old hat. All you really need is a wheel speed sensor in four wheel hubs (really not expensive to mass manufacture), a little bit of extra brake line routing (dirt cheap), and some electronics. In return, your ass is safer when you hit black ice that you didn't see and didn't expect. Shit that happens to every driver, no matter how good they are.

Also, for those of us who drive older cars, is that if this stuff breaks down, the car still works. ABS out, traction control out? Car still works. You don't have to fix it. It's not a form of forced car upgrades. Of course, fixing it is usually not that hard, though occasionally expensive. So it goes.

mwulff

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #122 on: January 05, 2017, 12:03:35 AM »
I agree and then again I don't really agree completely.

Here is my point of view:

A very high percentage of accidents are caused by the slow biological monkey behind the wheel. Evolution has not prepared us for the experience of hurtling down interstates at 65+ mph. Our attention span, reaction time and even sensory equipment is not really capable of processing all that is going on.

For many years the solution has been to help the monkey do better. ABS is a great example, the monkey can't brake at maximum without locking the wheels so let's make sure the wheels never lock. Same with ESP/ESC, the monkey can't let off the gas and counter-steer fast enough so we take the monkey out of the equation.

We also figure out that the monkeys are soft squishy biological things that explode in a big mess if they get crushed, so we invent crumple zones and airbags.

All this stuff is passive safety in that it doesn't affect any of your actions, but we are still not equipped to deal with interstate speeds. The next logical step is to start intervening when the monkey screws up:

Lane departure warning (which actually does work and provides more safety), blind spot indicators, automatic braking (because the monkey looked somewhere else at the wrong second), collision alerts, forward looking radar (used in automatic cruise control), semi-autonomous self steering (Tesla autopilot) and the list goes on and on...

These systems are all an evolutionary step on the way to removing the monkey from the steering wheel. I drive a Tesla with autopilot and I would not give it up for the world. It keeps the lane better than I can, reacts way way faster when something unexpected happens and it takes a lot of low level work out of driving, leaving me free to concentrate on the big picture in traffic.

In the end the best thing we can do is to take the monkey out of the equation. This is happening fast and will probably be reality within 5-10 years, and personally I can't wait. The autopilot system is a bite of the forbidden fruit, once you try it you want more.

I would love to be able to call my car and have it come pick me up after a party. Have it drive me (in the passenger seat) to the nearest burger-joint and then take me safely home to my bed. Friday-drunk-party monkey would love that.

I look forward to the day when nobody are allowed to drive themselves on public roads and humans manually controlling vehicles is a thing we do on racetracks.


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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #123 on: January 05, 2017, 12:21:51 AM »
On the other hand, there are safety features that only the ignorant argue against. ABS is one. Traction control, and electronic stability control (or active handling, as it's called in my car) is another. Backup cameras are great, though I hate the center dashboard screen, apart from that, they're great. There is literally no downside to having ABS. You cannot pump your brakes better than a good ABS module. There is no downside to having traction control (with an option to disable it for when you're on the track or carving canyons); same for ESC. These things save your fucking ass when you'd otherwise end up sideways. There is no downside to a camera that shows you what's behind your bumper, though some implementations admittedly suck (but then, it's still a fairly new feature.)

Having ABS doesn't make you a monkey who can't properly brake. It saves even the best drivers on areas of terrible traction - it can save you on gravel, on standing water, on black ice. Certainly there are shitty drivers who use the brake as a binary switch, slamming it at the last possible moment to cause their ABS to activate. Now, you can argue that it's ABS that allows them to brake poorly. It's really not. If ABS didn't exist, they'd still slam the brakes, but they'd slide a bit. Maybe they'd leave a little more distance for the slide. That doesn't make me feel safer - they're still monkeys, but now their car makes us (them, me) safer.

Are you familiar with the Munich taxi drivers experiment?

Drivers with ABS displayed less driving skill than those with the ABS, and had a slightly higher accident rate than drivers without ABS. The 'safety system' changed behaviour enough that it had the reverse effect. Safety systems can make the money behave worse, it learns that it can brake late and get away with it, so it brakes later and later.

Quote
Subsequent analysis of the rating scales showed that drivers of cabs with ABS made sharper turns in curves, were less accurate in their lane-holding behaviour, proceeded at a shorter forward sight distance, made more poorly adjusted merging manoeuvres and created more "traffic conflicts". This is a technical term for a situation in which one or more traffic participants have to take swift action to avoid a collision with another road user. Finally, as compared with the non-ABS cabs, the ABS cabs were driven faster at one of the four measuring points along the route. All these differences were significant.

To put this experiment in the context of our original two options for reducing risk, ABS brakes are an example of an action that reduces the consequences of risky behaviour.

But the study did not end there, and finds some evidence that the opposite type of strategy, increasing the consequences of risk taking, has quite an effect.

In a further extension of their study, the researchers analysed the accidents recorded by the same taxi company during an additional year. No difference in accident or severity rate between ABS and non-ABS vehicles was observed, but ABS taxis had more accidents under slippery driving conditions than the comparison vehicles.

Source here

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #124 on: January 05, 2017, 04:31:06 AM »
On the other hand, there are safety features that only the ignorant argue against. ABS is one. Traction control, and electronic stability control (or active handling, as it's called in my car) is another. Backup cameras are great, though I hate the center dashboard screen, apart from that, they're great. There is literally no downside to having ABS. You cannot pump your brakes better than a good ABS module. There is no downside to having traction control (with an option to disable it for when you're on the track or carving canyons); same for ESC. These things save your fucking ass when you'd otherwise end up sideways. There is no downside to a camera that shows you what's behind your bumper, though some implementations admittedly suck (but then, it's still a fairly new feature.)

Having ABS doesn't make you a monkey who can't properly brake. It saves even the best drivers on areas of terrible traction - it can save you on gravel, on standing water, on black ice. Certainly there are shitty drivers who use the brake as a binary switch, slamming it at the last possible moment to cause their ABS to activate. Now, you can argue that it's ABS that allows them to brake poorly. It's really not. If ABS didn't exist, they'd still slam the brakes, but they'd slide a bit. Maybe they'd leave a little more distance for the slide. That doesn't make me feel safer - they're still monkeys, but now their car makes us (them, me) safer.

Are you familiar with the Munich taxi drivers experiment?

Drivers with ABS displayed less driving skill than those with the ABS, and had a slightly higher accident rate than drivers without ABS. The 'safety system' changed behaviour enough that it had the reverse effect. Safety systems can make the money behave worse, it learns that it can brake late and get away with it, so it brakes later and later.

Quote
Subsequent analysis of the rating scales showed that drivers of cabs with ABS made sharper turns in curves, were less accurate in their lane-holding behaviour, proceeded at a shorter forward sight distance, made more poorly adjusted merging manoeuvres and created more "traffic conflicts". This is a technical term for a situation in which one or more traffic participants have to take swift action to avoid a collision with another road user. Finally, as compared with the non-ABS cabs, the ABS cabs were driven faster at one of the four measuring points along the route. All these differences were significant.

To put this experiment in the context of our original two options for reducing risk, ABS brakes are an example of an action that reduces the consequences of risky behaviour.

But the study did not end there, and finds some evidence that the opposite type of strategy, increasing the consequences of risk taking, has quite an effect.

In a further extension of their study, the researchers analysed the accidents recorded by the same taxi company during an additional year. No difference in accident or severity rate between ABS and non-ABS vehicles was observed, but ABS taxis had more accidents under slippery driving conditions than the comparison vehicles.

Source here

I looked up the Munich Taxi driver experiment which was conducted in the 1980's when ABS was a new and novel thing. The study is often cited in ultra-liberal/anarchist circles as an example of how the nanny-state decreases security for all of us.

The study is not online and no proper references exist online to find out what was going on or what the result data were and how reliable they are.

There is however some notes that hint that drivers felt more confident with ABS and therefore took unnecessary risks. Fast forward to 2017 and ABS is everywhere and not something people think about, it is therefore possible that by now we don't consider ABS a confidence-boosting device and drive as we normally would.

I would ask that somebody produce the original study, because the websites that refer to the study are of very questionably quality indeed.

I will leave you with a video of two cars colliding. One is built in the US according to US law and one is built in Mexico to mexican standards, which would you rather be in?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85OysZ_4lp0

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #125 on: January 05, 2017, 04:59:45 AM »
I will leave you with a video of two cars colliding. One is built in the US according to US law and one is built in Mexico to mexican standards, which would you rather be in?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85OysZ_4lp0

But... but... but Ford is moving some of their vehicle factories to Mexico!!!!!!

But seriously, the next video debunked the rumor I'd heard that SUVs and Pickups were less safe in accidents than cars, so thank you for the link!
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #126 on: January 05, 2017, 10:16:36 AM »
In the end the best thing we can do is to take the monkey out of the equation. This is happening fast and will probably be reality within 5-10 years, and personally I can't wait. The autopilot system is a bite of the forbidden fruit, once you try it you want more.

I would love to be able to call my car and have it come pick me up after a party. Have it drive me (in the passenger seat) to the nearest burger-joint and then take me safely home to my bed. Friday-drunk-party monkey would love that.

I look forward to the day when nobody are allowed to drive themselves on public roads and humans manually controlling vehicles is a thing we do on racetracks.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #127 on: January 05, 2017, 10:31:55 AM »
Is the Nissan Tsuru is structurally the same as the early 90s Nissan Sentra that it resembles?

The modern safety designs we are seeing in the USA may represent an endless arm's race always making last year's car less safe simply b/c it shares the road with this year's model.

How would the Nissan Tsuru fare against a 1992 Nissan Sentra? How would the '58 Chevy Impala fare against another car of its generation?

I don't mind older cars and I adjust my driving habits to take fewer chances when I drive them. My oldest cars are no less safe than a 2017 motorcycle and I do ride motorcycles. Rather than making people feel invincible I don't think it is a bad thing for people to be scared of their vehicles and the physics which apply to them. As John Muir (VW fame) wrote if everyone drove like they were strapped to the front of the vehicle or as if they had a big spike in the center of the steering wheel aimed at them - people would slow down and engage their brains for the driving experience.

I think the best safety system to date will be when the inattentive and risky drivers have been automated and eliminated from the driving process.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #128 on: January 05, 2017, 11:04:29 AM »
Is the Nissan Tsuru is structurally the same as the early 90s Nissan Sentra that it resembles?

The modern safety designs we are seeing in the USA may represent an endless arm's race always making last year's car less safe simply b/c it shares the road with this year's model.

How would the Nissan Tsuru fare against a 1992 Nissan Sentra? How would the '58 Chevy Impala fare against another car of its generation?

...snip....

I think the best safety system to date will be when the inattentive and risky drivers have been automated and eliminated from the driving process.

Actually in most 1950-60-70's cars both involved monkeys would end up dead or seriously injured in a crash. No crumple zones, no airbags, no collapsing pedals and steering wheel is really deadly.

Take 2010+ cars and smash them together and you stand a much better chance. But it's not an arms race per se. Cars are designed to crumble better and keep the interior shell intact.

So if you're in a 2010 car it might actually be better if the car you hit is from 2017 if it's able to absorb energy better.

And here is what happens when equal age cars (1970's) go head to head: https://youtu.be/YiNjZLEgAiY

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #129 on: January 05, 2017, 11:10:38 AM »
Actually in most 1950-60-70's cars both involved monkeys would end up dead or seriously injured in a crash. No crumple zones, no airbags, no collapsing pedals and steering wheel is really deadly.


My anecdotal data is probably worth nothing, but I can tell you that it certainly is possible to drive a 1970s British sports car (probably 1960s technology there) into a concrete guard rail doing 75mph and just get out and walk away.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #130 on: January 05, 2017, 11:13:42 AM »
Actually in most 1950-60-70's cars both involved monkeys would end up dead or seriously injured in a crash. No crumple zones, no airbags, no collapsing pedals and steering wheel is really deadly.


My anecdotal data is probably worth nothing, but I can tell you that it certainly is possible to drive a 1970s British sports car (probably 1960s technology there) into a concrete guard rail doing 75mph and just get out and walk away.

Your data would be valid if you did it a 1000 times ;) but please don't. You're pretty lucky though? If you survived a head on collision you should seriously consider playing the lottery.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #131 on: January 05, 2017, 11:15:29 AM »
Actually in most 1950-60-70's cars both involved monkeys would end up dead or seriously injured in a crash. No crumple zones, no airbags, no collapsing pedals and steering wheel is really deadly.


My anecdotal data is probably worth nothing, but I can tell you that it certainly is possible to drive a 1970s British sports car (probably 1960s technology there) into a concrete guard rail doing 75mph and just get out and walk away.

Your data would be valid if you did it a 1000 times ;) but please don't. You're pretty lucky though? If you survived a head on collision you should seriously consider playing the lottery.

LOL.  Yes, I was certainly lucky.  And no, I have no plans on seeing the average outcome.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #132 on: January 05, 2017, 12:02:16 PM »
https://www.carbuyingtips.com/articles/blog/how-to-avoid-upside-down-car-loans.htm

break even point on the avg 7 year loan is around year 6 ... this should not be allowed.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #133 on: January 05, 2017, 12:32:19 PM »
I was returning a leased Ford last month (I'm leaving behind a life of antiMustachian sin, the angels in heaven sang!) I made the big mistake of telling them that I wouldn't be replacing my expired lease with a new lease. Let's just say that they didn't make helping me a top priority. I had to run back to the dealership several times to sign things.

I shoulda just said I would be leasing the Platinum Edition F350, then backed out after they had my expired lease worked out. Bastards.


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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #134 on: January 05, 2017, 12:41:16 PM »
Is the Nissan Tsuru is structurally the same as the early 90s Nissan Sentra that it resembles?

The modern safety designs we are seeing in the USA may represent an endless arm's race always making last year's car less safe simply b/c it shares the road with this year's model.

How would the Nissan Tsuru fare against a 1992 Nissan Sentra? How would the '58 Chevy Impala fare against another car of its generation?

...snip....

I think the best safety system to date will be when the inattentive and risky drivers have been automated and eliminated from the driving process.

Actually in most 1950-60-70's cars both involved monkeys would end up dead or seriously injured in a crash. No crumple zones, no airbags, no collapsing pedals and steering wheel is really deadly.

Take 2010+ cars and smash them together and you stand a much better chance. But it's not an arms race per se. Cars are designed to crumble better and keep the interior shell intact.

So if you're in a 2010 car it might actually be better if the car you hit is from 2017 if it's able to absorb energy better.

And here is what happens when equal age cars (1970's) go head to head: https://youtu.be/YiNjZLEgAiY

Car crash death statistics support this - far fewer people are injured and killed on the roads today, despite far more miles being driven. Cars are getting objectively safer over time.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #135 on: January 05, 2017, 12:52:38 PM »
https://www.carbuyingtips.com/articles/blog/how-to-avoid-upside-down-car-loans.htm

break even point on the avg 7 year loan is around year 6 ... this should not be allowed.

I remember an Armed Forces Network commercial from a few years ago showing the stupidity of financing furniture for the same reason.  It had a time lapse of what a sofa with a family of kids and pets looks like over the course of 5 years while you still owe money on it.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #136 on: January 05, 2017, 12:54:10 PM »
https://www.carbuyingtips.com/articles/blog/how-to-avoid-upside-down-car-loans.htm

break even point on the avg 7 year loan is around year 6 ... this should not be allowed.

I remember an Armed Forces Network commercial from a few years ago showing the stupidity of financing furniture for the same reason.  It had a time lapse of what a sofa with a family of kids and pets looks like over the course of 5 years while you still owe money on it.

Military folks are often terrible with $. It's really sad. I'm glad that they at least banned payday loans to military people.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #137 on: January 05, 2017, 01:19:10 PM »
https://www.carbuyingtips.com/articles/blog/how-to-avoid-upside-down-car-loans.htm

break even point on the avg 7 year loan is around year 6 ... this should not be allowed.
You mean should literally be illegal?

I disagree. In general, you make people worse off, not better off, by restricting their choice. I have a 5 (or maybe 6, I'm not exactly sure) year loan at 0% on my car. If they offered me a 20 year loan at 0%, I'd have taken that... :)

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #138 on: January 05, 2017, 01:39:40 PM »
https://www.carbuyingtips.com/articles/blog/how-to-avoid-upside-down-car-loans.htm

break even point on the avg 7 year loan is around year 6 ... this should not be allowed.

I remember an Armed Forces Network commercial from a few years ago showing the stupidity of financing furniture for the same reason.  It had a time lapse of what a sofa with a family of kids and pets looks like over the course of 5 years while you still owe money on it.

Financing furniture is a silly mistake to be avoided, but having children is ok? Seems like the commercial missed the point...
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #139 on: January 05, 2017, 03:58:58 PM »
I've had a rather odd experience when buying a used car in June of 2016. My wife and I had just arrived in the US after having travelled around the world for the past more than six months, and were planning to travel around North America for three months in a minivan converted into a campervan. Thus, I did a lot of research and narrowed down my search on three specifig makes and models: Toyota Sienna 2004 or later, Honda Odyssey 2004 or later, or Kia Sedona 2006 or later. A buddy of mine recommended to check out the dealer's website and go look at their lots on a sunday since there would be no salespeople around to annoy me, which turned out to be a great idea. I ended up printing out a total of ten listings from three different dealerships across town (two Toyota, one Kia) and we went out to look at them. Only problem was we didn't find a any of'em on any of the dealers' lots.

So, the next day I went in again, handed the salesmen the respective printouts, and asked to see these cars and these cars only. Turns out not a single salesperson was able to "find them" on their lot. To this very day I don't know if they were unwilling or unable to locate them. Instead, they tried to sell me something else (read: much more expensive). After being unable to locate the cars I specifically asked for all salesmen at all three dealerships proceeded with their default spiel. First, ask the customer how much he or she wants to spend. Second, take that amount, add another two or three thousand dollars, and consider it to be a downpayment for a brand-new car. Third, present them with cars they never asked for and pull every single trick in the book to convince them why it's smarter to spend $40,000 on a brand-new car instead of the original $7,000 on a used car they came in for in the first place.

Two dealerships we ended up walking out of slamming the door behind us because we got so annoyed at their behavior it was painful. I'm still asking myself whether this trick would ever work on anyone? If I have $7,000 to spend on a car, why would I spend more than $40,000 instead? Who does that? Are people really that stupid?
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #140 on: January 05, 2017, 04:06:33 PM »
I'm still asking myself whether this trick would ever work on anyone? If I have $7,000 to spend on a car, why would I spend more than $40,000 instead? Who does that? Are people really that stupid?

Yes, and in quantities enough to perpetuate those tactics.

I've been wondering lately if salesmen also play up the fear tactics of "you live in a snowy area, have a large vehicle you don't know how to use."  The last couple major snow days we've had here (including today) have revealed the utter lack of driving knowledge in my community.  Most of the accidents have been SUVs and pickup trucks going off the road.  In a military city you're going to find a lot of trucks no matter where in the US you are, but I have to wonder if people are buying them not just for the man-card status, but also some fear of the weather and if the dealerships are pressuring buyers into them.  I just drove my Prius through six inches of snow with barely a skid, but had to dodge a truck fishtailing down the road.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #141 on: January 05, 2017, 04:54:05 PM »
Another thing I've never understood: why lock people in an office for an extended period of time after they've already settled on a price? It's not as though they need to check my credit, find the keys, or do other paperwork; it's all on a computer file somewhere and it can most likely be printed out in seconds.

The next time that happens-- getting locked in a salesperson's office-- I'm going to be sorely tempted to urinate somewhere in that office just for grins and giggles.
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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #142 on: January 05, 2017, 05:29:12 PM »
Another thing I've never understood: why lock people in an office for an extended period of time after they've already settled on a price? It's not as though they need to check my credit, find the keys, or do other paperwork; it's all on a computer file somewhere and it can most likely be printed out in seconds.

The next time that happens-- getting locked in a salesperson's office-- I'm going to be sorely tempted to urinate somewhere in that office just for grins and giggles.

I assume this is hyperbole?

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #143 on: January 05, 2017, 05:39:55 PM »
It is not. The classic maneuver is they take your car keys, for some random reason, when you come in to the dealer. Never give up your car keys unless everyone has signed a trade-in agreement.

They'll also make you wait in the office to wear you down, far too often.

Dirty tricks. Easy to fuck with them if you know what's up.

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #144 on: January 05, 2017, 06:47:37 PM »
It is not. The classic maneuver is they take your car keys, for some random reason, when you come in to the dealer. Never give up your car keys unless everyone has signed a trade-in agreement.

They'll also make you wait in the office to wear you down, far too often.

Dirty tricks. Easy to fuck with them if you know what's up.

On our last purchase, we were in salesdude's office for about 6 hours.  All negotiations happened in the first 15 minutes.  We didn't budge after that.  We should have left, but it was 2 hours home with no car and we didn't.  We did finally get it for the price we held firm on.
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With This Herring

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #145 on: January 05, 2017, 09:08:59 PM »
Another thing I've never understood: why lock people in an office for an extended period of time after they've already settled on a price? It's not as though they need to check my credit, find the keys, or do other paperwork; it's all on a computer file somewhere and it can most likely be printed out in seconds.

The next time that happens-- getting locked in a salesperson's office-- I'm going to be sorely tempted to urinate somewhere in that office just for grins and giggles.

I assume this is hyperbole?
It is not. The classic maneuver is they take your car keys, for some random reason, when you come in to the dealer. Never give up your car keys unless everyone has signed a trade-in agreement.

They'll also make you wait in the office to wear you down, far too often.

Dirty tricks. Easy to fuck with them if you know what's up.

What.  WHAT?!  How is that not illegal?  Why do people stand for it?!

Wow, I am never going to a dealer to buy a car.  I will continue to purchase used vehicles from Russian individuals via CraigsList.
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JLee

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #146 on: January 05, 2017, 09:56:44 PM »
Another thing I've never understood: why lock people in an office for an extended period of time after they've already settled on a price? It's not as though they need to check my credit, find the keys, or do other paperwork; it's all on a computer file somewhere and it can most likely be printed out in seconds.

The next time that happens-- getting locked in a salesperson's office-- I'm going to be sorely tempted to urinate somewhere in that office just for grins and giggles.

I assume this is hyperbole?
It is not. The classic maneuver is they take your car keys, for some random reason, when you come in to the dealer. Never give up your car keys unless everyone has signed a trade-in agreement.

They'll also make you wait in the office to wear you down, far too often.

Dirty tricks. Easy to fuck with them if you know what's up.

What.  WHAT?!  How is that not illegal?  Why do people stand for it?!

Wow, I am never going to a dealer to buy a car.  I will continue to purchase used vehicles from Russian individuals via CraigsList.

Pretty sure it would be.  A dealer can't just "take your car keys" and "lock people in an office."

I've bought from a couple of dealers and have never had any problems.  I have always gone to them to look at one specific vehicle, and I never trade in.

gimp

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #147 on: January 05, 2017, 09:59:12 PM »
They don't "just take your keys" or "just lock you in," they lie to you or convince you to willingly go along with it. It's sales tactics, not kidnapping. There's a slight difference.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #148 on: January 05, 2017, 11:28:51 PM »
FWIW, we've had much better luck going with small-time, independent (used car) dealers.  Several years ago, we were in the market for a minivan.  We went to the big dealer near us, took one for a test drive, and told them our budget.  They came back with a number $2500 higher.  We told them "this is how much we have to spend, sorry."  They tried to do the whole four-square thing, but we were young and naive and stubborn and ignored any numbers except the OTD price, and just told 'em that our budget wasn't flexible.   We walked out of there without a van that day.


craiglepaige

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Re: Ridiculous Things Dealerships Say and Do
« Reply #149 on: January 06, 2017, 06:51:11 AM »
FWIW, we've had much better luck going with small-time, independent (used car) dealers.  Several years ago, we were in the market for a minivan.  We went to the big dealer near us, took one for a test drive, and told them our budget.  They came back with a number $2500 higher.  We told them "this is how much we have to spend, sorry."  They tried to do the whole four-square thing, but we were young and naive and stubborn and ignored any numbers except the OTD price, and just told 'em that our budget wasn't flexible.   We walked out of there without a van that day.


Sounds to me like you were a badass :)
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