Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 3482772 times)

merula

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5250 on: March 28, 2019, 11:31:59 AM »
My nephew (14) plays for a pro soccer team here in england, in the u15 team (college sport isnt a thing here, the pro teams are responsible for growing (or buying talent). He gets ALL of his gear for free (like a shit-ton of it, 5 shirts so you always play in a clean shirt if you're in a weekend long tournament)

It's the same here. If you're "could go pro" good and over 13, you can get your gear for free. Junior hockey teams, higher level Little League teams for baseball, scholarships to private high schools, etc.

It's kinda like MLMs. Good businesses give their salespeople sales samples and inventory. Bad businesses make them buy it themselves.

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5251 on: March 28, 2019, 11:48:37 AM »
Wow Imma I had no idea about the Dutch culture. When we were in Italy apartments and condos were small so people expressed their wealth through their clothes, etc.  We are older so our house is nice but when we were young we bought a old house that needed lots of work. We fixed it as we had the money.

KathrinS

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5252 on: March 28, 2019, 04:03:34 PM »

His son (18) wants to be an ice hockey player, so obviously he needs all of the best, professional gear.  He needs new, expensive hockey sticks (over $100) every few weeks because when he loses, he smashes them on the ground in rage.


This is besides the point but if he's still buying his own sticks at 18 (as opposed to getting them from a team), he isn't going to be a hockey player.

He keeps moving to new teams because the coaches tell him he should just play recreationally, he's not good enough to go pro. The family consensus: 'Poor boy! Those horrible coaches, they just don't like him. Why can't we find a decent coach?' Then they move to a new team, paying yet another membership fee.

Oh, man.  That's just sad.  There was a family in my neighborhood growing up who were the same way - their son was going to be an NHL superstar! The delusion lasted well past the point of there being any hope - like there is a major junior team in town - there's a very obvious skill differential between those kids and your kid.  When you get to the point that you are aging out of  junior and you've never managed to crack a Junior A roster, it's time to accept that your deep and abiding love for hockey can always remain but you need to find another way to earn your living.  The sheer amount of money wasted was one thing, but even worse was when they finally accepted that the hockey thing was never going to pan out (kid was in his mid 20's), he was just totally lost.  No back up plan.  No ambition to do anything else.  He kind of just lingered around in a state of disbelief not really doing anything for several years.  I've long since lost touch with the family - but I hope he figured his shit out and managed to get his life back together.

This strikes a chord because I was very into ballet for a long time, but had started at 16 so it was a real challenge to get to a good level. I held onto my dream for a long time and my family spent a lot of money on my training. (Luckily, they also made me go to university at the same time!) I did have potential, and there were teachers who were very encouraging, but by the time I was 22/23, I realised that I'd have to spend another 2 or so years in training, not making any money. So, I changed tracks and am now (at 25) working full time. I'm the first born child of our generation in my family - including all of my cousins - so they sometimes make statements like 'Kathrin also got to live her dream, why shouldn't he?' Let's just hope he also realises at some point that he'll have to earn a living. Or maybe not, and he'll end up living off his dad forever ...

UncleX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5253 on: March 29, 2019, 04:41:41 AM »
@Cassie In our country, it's considered very important that your home looks picture perfect. Most homes are small in this country, the cars are small, no one cares about designer clothes but a perfect house is a must have. Even if you are poor - then you just get your stuff from cheaper stores. Flashy/expensive interiors are frowned upon, but your home has tot be absolutely spotless and decorated in a certain way. Dutch people are forthright to a fault. When we moved in our neighbour told us that we have the wrong curtains, as we are the only home in the street that don't have curtains in a particular style.
Wow Imma I had no idea about the Dutch culture. When we were in Italy apartments and condos were small so people expressed their wealth through their clothes, etc.  We are older so our house is nice but when we were young we bought a old house that needed lots of work. We fixed it as we had the money.
I am Dutch and live in the Netherlands too. I’m not offended or anything, but I feel there is a bit (too much) of generalizing going on here. What @Imma is describing is certainly not what I consider Dutch culture in general.

There are a lot of differences between urban areas like de Randstad and more rural areas like de Achterhoek, the north-east and the south and I am actually generalizing myself considering those differences. But there are loads of huge houses and cars in the Netherlands and as long as I keep my house and car in front of it maintained to a certain level, I don't think anybody really cares. Family wants me to be happy and neighbors want to keep our neighborhood nice, that’s it.

Where I live people are not as straightforward as the stereotypical Dutchman is supposed to be. Sure there would be talk about my ugly curtains, if I had any, but I wouldn’t be included in that conversation.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2019, 05:26:17 AM by UncleX »

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5254 on: March 29, 2019, 05:16:19 AM »
Wow Imma I had no idea about the Dutch culture. When we were in Italy apartments and condos were small so people expressed their wealth through their clothes, etc.  We are older so our house is nice but when we were young we bought a old house that needed lots of work. We fixed it as we had the money.

This is kind of a stereotypical generalization about Italy too.  I know that Italians are famous for the "bella figura" but in the countryside lots of wealthier people have huge houses.  And my Italian friends have old cars, old phones and non-flashy clothes.
 Even here in the city, people often put a lot of money into renovating their homes.  Not everyone has a huge apartment as not everyone is wealthy but they are often house proud.  Kind of like where i come from in the US (NYC).

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5255 on: March 30, 2019, 04:09:00 AM »
@Cassie In our country, it's considered very important that your home looks picture perfect. Most homes are small in this country, the cars are small, no one cares about designer clothes but a perfect house is a must have. Even if you are poor - then you just get your stuff from cheaper stores. Flashy/expensive interiors are frowned upon, but your home has tot be absolutely spotless and decorated in a certain way. Dutch people are forthright to a fault. When we moved in our neighbour told us that we have the wrong curtains, as we are the only home in the street that don't have curtains in a particular style.
Wow Imma I had no idea about the Dutch culture. When we were in Italy apartments and condos were small so people expressed their wealth through their clothes, etc.  We are older so our house is nice but when we were young we bought a old house that needed lots of work. We fixed it as we had the money.
I am Dutch and live in the Netherlands too. I’m not offended or anything, but I feel there is a bit (too much) of generalizing going on here. What @Imma is describing is certainly not what I consider Dutch culture in general.

There are a lot of differences between urban areas like de Randstad and more rural areas like de Achterhoek, the north-east and the south and I am actually generalizing myself considering those differences. But there are loads of huge houses and cars in the Netherlands and as long as I keep my house and car in front of it maintained to a certain level, I don't think anybody really cares. Family wants me to be happy and neighbors want to keep our neighborhood nice, that’s it.

Where I live people are not as straightforward as the stereotypical Dutchman is supposed to be. Sure there would be talk about my ugly curtains, if I had any, but I wouldn’t be included in that conversation.

Obviously there are regional differences in all countries, not just NL. Dutch directness varies - thankfully we're not all as direct as people in Amsterdam or Rotterdam (yes, that's a generalisation, of course not every single person from those cities is extremely direct but the social norm is to be very direct). I'm from the rural south myself and now in a city in the south.

No, not every single person in NL has a small house, especially in rural areas homes tend to be a bit bigger, but the vast majority of people live in apartments, terraced or semi-detached homes on fairly small plots. Not just in the cities, in rural areas like the north many people also live in houses like that. Same goes for cars: sure, lots of people have big fancy cars but the most common cars on the road are models like the VW Golf and Polo.

What you say about "maintaining your house and car up to a certain level" is exactly what I mean. If you drive through the NL from north to south you will see a uniformness that you won't see in a lot of other countries, because there is a very strong social pressure about what a house, car, garden etc should look like. The norms may very from street to street or town to town but they are generally pretty strict. If you don't know what I mean, drive to Belgium and compare. Books from travellers from centuries ago already refer to the uniformness and cleanliness. You can even see it in the landscape.

In your area it might not be the norm for your neighbours to inform you about the curtains issue, but the fact people are taking about the colour of your curtains is in itself insane.

Where I'm from this social pressure also extends to the indoors of a home. My neighbours might gossip a bit about my weird interior but don't actually care that much about it as long as I don't paint my front door in another colour, but my family definitely does care. For example, my mother would never allow any family gatherings in my house because the extended family would see what my house looks like and she'd be ashamed. I have heard the same thing from other friends so it's not just my family being weird. My in-laws are like that too. It might be a southern / rural thing to feel that shame though.

UncleX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5256 on: March 30, 2019, 05:48:32 AM »
Obviously there are regional differences in all countries, not just NL. Dutch directness varies - thankfully we're not all as direct as people in Amsterdam or Rotterdam (yes, that's a generalisation, of course not every single person from those cities is extremely direct but the social norm is to be very direct). I'm from the rural south myself and now in a city in the south.

No, not every single person in NL has a small house, especially in rural areas homes tend to be a bit bigger, but the vast majority of people live in apartments, terraced or semi-detached homes on fairly small plots. Not just in the cities, in rural areas like the north many people also live in houses like that. Same goes for cars: sure, lots of people have big fancy cars but the most common cars on the road are models like the VW Golf and Polo.

What you say about "maintaining your house and car up to a certain level" is exactly what I mean. If you drive through the NL from north to south you will see a uniformness that you won't see in a lot of other countries, because there is a very strong social pressure about what a house, car, garden etc should look like. The norms may very from street to street or town to town but they are generally pretty strict. If you don't know what I mean, drive to Belgium and compare. Books from travellers from centuries ago already refer to the uniformness and cleanliness. You can even see it in the landscape.

In your area it might not be the norm for your neighbours to inform you about the curtains issue, but the fact people are taking about the colour of your curtains is in itself insane.

Where I'm from this social pressure also extends to the indoors of a home. My neighbours might gossip a bit about my weird interior but don't actually care that much about it as long as I don't paint my front door in another colour, but my family definitely does care. For example, my mother would never allow any family gatherings in my house because the extended family would see what my house looks like and she'd be ashamed. I have heard the same thing from other friends so it's not just my family being weird. My in-laws are like that too. It might be a southern / rural thing to feel that shame though.
I don’t really have an issue with generalisation, it’s just what people do and often based on facts. I agree with most of what you are saying, especially about the uniformness of how houses are built and streets look. When you pass the German or Belgian border you immediately notice a change in landscape and housing. Usually not better or worse, just different in my opinion (there are exceptions).

A certain level of maintenance to me means that you don’t make a scrapyard out of your driveway, you mow your lawn once in a while and keep your house from falling apart. I am from the rural south too and I don’t really experience this pressure you mention. Maybe I’m just lucky to have non-intrusive relatives. It’s a bit sad that your mother would be ashamed of your choices that make you happy. She should be happy and proud.

Just to be clear @Imma, I don’t want to argue with you, it’s just conversation about our slightly different views on Dutch culture.

ysette9

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5257 on: March 30, 2019, 06:28:33 AM »
This is fascinating to listen to the two of you talk about Dutch culture. Thank you for sharing. The only time I have been to the NL was when I was a kid, and I wasn’t observing things like house uniformity at that age. :)

What do the Dutch think of Americans and our weird obsession with individualism?

gatortator

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5258 on: March 30, 2019, 07:37:12 AM »
I agree. this discussion on Dutch culture is very interesting to me, since my mom's side of the family is of Dutch descent. (my great grand parents came to the US as kids and the family stayed within the same close knit community until my mom's generation)

some of the stories about relatives now make more sense.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5259 on: March 30, 2019, 09:01:01 AM »
I also grew up in the Netherlands. What I noticed from houses is that many people who live in a street with similar houses, want it paint their wood a different color. The rest of the house is usually made of brick. But wooden elements that were delivered in brown are often painted over in another color, like white. Even if the houses stand in a row against each other and the wooden bar covers several homes. One house paints their's blue, another green and a third white. My parents hated that.

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5260 on: March 30, 2019, 10:47:23 AM »
In my street the houses are all painted according to a very intricate pattern. There are two types of houses in the street and one type all have the same paint colours, the other type have two houses in colour 1, two houses in colour 2, etc. I'm in a house of the last type. The houses were built half a century ago by the same housing association who presumably chose the paint colours, but they're all owner occupied now and have been for years and years. If I were to paint my house in the "wrong" colour I would not at all be surprised to come home one day and find that my neighbour has painted over my door :)  We have been talking about a loft conversion to create an extra bedroom but I know the neighbours would kill us.

Of course some streets have stronger social control than others. In both my hometown and current street, most residents have been around for decades. Other than the paint and the curtains some other social rules in our street are no bikes in front of the house, everyone has to have the same front yard, washing the windows and the pavement in front of your house every week, never opening your curtains completely during the day but also not keeping them completely closed. I'm afraid we break every single one of them. I try to be extra nice to my neighbours and just hope they don't hate me too much. It's not that I do it on purpose, I just lack the time. I have to say our street always looks very neat and tidy but if we ever move, we would probably consider a place with less neighbours.

My relatives aren't even that bad, a friend of mine also lives in a house her parents don't like. Her grandparents live next to her parents and are dependent on them for transport and they refused to take the grandparents when they visited because "they don't have to see this mess" (it's small but not rat-infested or something). They have also gifted her plenty of "proper" furniture for when she buys a "real" house that just sits in storage. Another set of friends got a large gift of money from their parents to buy a house with on the condition they got a big say in which house was purchased and how it was decorated. I guess moaning about a standard white kitchen (woningbouwkeuken) isn't that bad :)

I'm curious to hear about Dutch people across the Atlantic! I honestly had no idea there were close-knit Dutch communities at all. I have relatives in Canada and they all assimilated very quickly. No one speaks Dutch except the ones born here and they all changed their names to English names. I had the impression that was pretty common.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5261 on: March 30, 2019, 11:12:46 AM »
My neighbors would hate me if I lived in the Netherlands.  I guess the reason why I was attracted to Mustachianism is that I'm pretty non-conformist to community standards. 

Here in Italy, the only thing which really pisses off the neighbors in my apartment building is people throwing their cigarette butts on the stairs, people leaving the elevator door open so that it's blocked on one floor and people leaving the front door of the building open.  It would also be taboo to have a loud party late at night as it would keep the neighbors awake but I think that's pretty normal.  For the record, our apartment building is painted pink, the one attached to ours is yellow and the one next to that is greed - no one cares. We all hang our laundry outside to dry in the sun on clothes lines stretched between windows outside. 

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5262 on: March 30, 2019, 11:26:08 AM »
Wow I cannot believe that neighbors try to micromanage each other. The first thing I do in the morning is open my curtains all the way.  I also cannot imagine being ashamed of where your kids live. It’s nobody’s business.

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5263 on: March 30, 2019, 12:31:29 PM »
The curtains thing is probably because we live close to each other. If they are all the way open people can look right into your house, but completely closed all day looks like you have something to hide. I think I'm a pretty easy neighbour. As long as you don't keep me awake at night, build a drugs lab in the attic or throw bags of thrash in the garden I don't care much.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5264 on: March 30, 2019, 12:52:36 PM »
The curtains thing is probably because we live close to each other. If they are all the way open people can look right into your house, but completely closed all day looks like you have something to hide. I think I'm a pretty easy neighbour. As long as you don't keep me awake at night, build a drugs lab in the attic or throw bags of thrash in the garden I don't care much.

Isn't that why Dutch people like "vitrage" (see through curtains) in addition to normal curtains? Those can be kept close all day while you still let in sunlight.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5265 on: March 30, 2019, 03:35:23 PM »
The curtains thing is probably because we live close to each other. If they are all the way open people can look right into your house, but completely closed all day looks like you have something to hide.

But that's no one's business.  Personally I'd want to hide my messy house from such nosy neighbors.  Also, I don't think we've washed our windows since we moved in more than 3 years ago.  We're total slobs. 

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5266 on: March 30, 2019, 04:13:27 PM »
I'm curious to hear about Dutch people across the Atlantic! I honestly had no idea there were close-knit Dutch communities at all. I have relatives in Canada and they all assimilated very quickly. No one speaks Dutch except the ones born here and they all changed their names to English names. I had the impression that was pretty common.

The Dutch family origin people I know here still have the original spelling for last names but generally have more English (or French in Quebec) first names.  That isn't unusual, if you see someone with (for example) an Irish origin last name, the first name will also be anglicized.

OtherJen

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5267 on: March 30, 2019, 08:35:06 PM »
I'm curious to hear about Dutch people across the Atlantic! I honestly had no idea there were close-knit Dutch communities at all. I have relatives in Canada and they all assimilated very quickly. No one speaks Dutch except the ones born here and they all changed their names to English names. I had the impression that was pretty common.

The Dutch family origin people I know here still have the original spelling for last names but generally have more English (or French in Quebec) first names.  That isn't unusual, if you see someone with (for example) an Irish origin last name, the first name will also be anglicized.

My Dutch great-grandfather emigrated to rural Alberta, Canada. My great-grandmother was Scottish and English, though, so my grandfather and siblings all had English names. Our branch of the family moved to Detroit in the 1920s, where my grandfather married my US-born grandma (of Scottish and Irish descent) and the family assimilated fully. There’s still a clan of people near Edmonton, Alberta with the same surname (distant cousins), and they still use some Dutch language. I assume there’s a sizable ethnic Dutch population there.

UncleX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5268 on: March 31, 2019, 07:35:38 AM »
In the Netherlands often a contractor or a few contractors build a whole quarter as a project and there is a lot of uniformity in these quarters then. The architect decides on everything including colours of the doors etc. (but not curtains). Often when you buy a house in these quarters you have to keep the uniformity intact to a certain level and for a certain period of time. It probably varies from case to case.

As said, personally I don’t recognize what Imma describes, so maybe there are even bigger differences within the Netherlands than I realized.

iris lily

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5269 on: March 31, 2019, 07:50:16 AM »
I’d like to know more about getting a mortgage for a garden.

It is probablynabout big landscaping proje ts and outdoor kitchens and things of that nature.

Goldielocks

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5270 on: March 31, 2019, 05:31:17 PM »
I'm curious to hear about Dutch people across the Atlantic! I honestly had no idea there were close-knit Dutch communities at all. I have relatives in Canada and they all assimilated very quickly. No one speaks Dutch except the ones born here and they all changed their names to English names. I had the impression that was pretty common.

The Dutch family origin people I know here still have the original spelling for last names but generally have more English (or French in Quebec) first names.  That isn't unusual, if you see someone with (for example) an Irish origin last name, the first name will also be anglicized.

My Dutch great-grandfather emigrated to rural Alberta, Canada. My great-grandmother was Scottish and English, though, so my grandfather and siblings all had English names. Our branch of the family moved to Detroit in the 1920s, where my grandfather married my US-born grandma (of Scottish and Irish descent) and the family assimilated fully. There’s still a clan of people near Edmonton, Alberta with the same surname (distant cousins), and they still use some Dutch language. I assume there’s a sizable ethnic Dutch population there.

Plautdietsch isn't Dutch, and is still spoken in rural areas in the Prairies due to religious cutural communities who tie back to a Dutch minister but are not themselves, Dutch...

...and, I think, is quite different from Plattdeutsch (a version of which which my great grandmother spoke).   Pretty much everywhere in Alberta, low German as well as Scandinavian and Dutch languages were NOT spoken during WWII because to the lazy English ear, they sounded like German, which was strongly discriminated against in the west. (Amazing, given what Holland and the Netherlands went through).   And those communities in Alberta no longer speak German sounding languages.
 It (language spoken) survived in more populous German eastern Canada communities (cities like New Berlin... renamed Kitchener for similar reasons).

markbike528CBX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5271 on: March 31, 2019, 09:12:45 PM »
....snip...

 It (language spoken) survived in more populous German eastern Canada communities (cities like New Berlin... renamed Kitchener for similar reasons).

In New Berlin PA, the pronunciation tends to be New Ber'ln,but the name retained.
1815, New Berlin was the county seat, and had 7 German-language newspapers, 3 English language newspapers.

A town in Indiana, is "Pershing or New Germantown" , really, 80 years later( at the time) and it still is undecided?

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5272 on: April 01, 2019, 02:46:57 AM »
The curtains thing is probably because we live close to each other. If they are all the way open people can look right into your house, but completely closed all day looks like you have something to hide.

But that's no one's business.  Personally I'd want to hide my messy house from such nosy neighbors.  Also, I don't think we've washed our windows since we moved in more than 3 years ago.  We're total slobs.

The whole curtains issue started because we don't have those see-through curtains Linea referred to. Everyone has them but we. You are supposed to have the see through curtains (maybe a little gap between them so you can look out on the street) during the day. We just have regular curtains and they're open when I'm home and downstairs and want daylight and closed otherwise. If the neighbour is feeling awkward about looking into our house all day then maybe he should do something useful with his life instead of staring out of his own window all day.

The thread about the possible prostitute/dealer neighbour also reminded me about another neighbour, who told my partner I'd had "received several male visitors" while he was away for the weekend. He's so direct he isn't used to people trying to say something politely, so at first he didn't understand she was implying I was cheating. The lady was batshit crazy and would spread around gossip like that all the time, we haven't laughed so hard about neighbourhood gossip since she moved out. 

We were in Belgium today and we took a different route than we normally do. We were looking out of the train window trying to guess whether we were still in BE or already in NL. It takes about 5 seconds to determine that. Funny as BE has only been independent for 150 years and there has only been a real, hard border for a century. My family is from both sides of the border and my grandparents, born between WWI and WWII, remember the time way back when there were little cultural and linguage differences between both areas. BE is definitely on the list for places to retire to.

It's also funny that @UncleX is apparantly from pretty much the same area I am and perceives our culture so differently. What I always thought was one of the most distinctive aspects about the south is everybody being so concerned about keeping up appearances and what will the family think about this? Even though not many people in the younger generation are still actively religious, the Catholic heritage with the focus on the family and parents being shamed if their children do not conform I feel is still there.

I had never heard of Plautdietsch and it's indeed more German than Dutch, but on wikipedia I found the Lord's Prayer in Plautdietsch and it's still understandable to me, even though this language hasn't been connected to standard Dutch or German for centuries.

runbikerun

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5273 on: April 01, 2019, 04:16:52 AM »
My nephew (14) plays for a pro soccer team here in england, in the u15 team (college sport isnt a thing here, the pro teams are responsible for growing (or buying talent). He gets ALL of his gear for free (like a shit-ton of it, 5 shirts so you always play in a clean shirt if you're in a weekend long tournament)

There was a great quote from a professional cyclist who was asked how a teenager wanting to go pro could get the attention of a team. His answer was "win every race you ever enter."

If you're hoping to be a professional athlete and you're sixteen years old, then you need to be the best player on the pitch or the fastest runner or rider on the track every time you lace up. If you've competed against one or two people who were better than you, the odds are already against you.

flipboard

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5274 on: April 04, 2019, 12:24:37 PM »
The curtains thing is probably because we live close to each other. If they are all the way open people can look right into your house, but completely closed all day looks like you have something to hide. I think I'm a pretty easy neighbour. As long as you don't keep me awake at night, build a drugs lab in the attic or throw bags of thrash in the garden I don't care much.

Isn't that why Dutch people like "vitrage" (see through curtains) in addition to normal curtains? Those can be kept close all day while you still let in sunlight.
Aren't these a thing across middle Europe? I'm pretty sure these see through curtains are common in Germany, Poland, Switzerland (Austria too?).

They're somewhat of a necessity when you have city buildings with lots of windows.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5275 on: April 04, 2019, 01:18:54 PM »
What I forgot to mention in the original post......the SIL works (high up) in the mortgage industry.


But...  But...   She's had a mortgage interest tax deduction all these years.   You would think it would have made her rich!!! :)

Goldielocks

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5276 on: April 04, 2019, 05:05:34 PM »
What I forgot to mention in the original post......the SIL works (high up) in the mortgage industry.


But...  But...   She's had a mortgage interest tax deduction all these years.   You would think it would have made her rich!!! :)

<<hearts>>

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5277 on: April 04, 2019, 05:48:43 PM »
When I was in Poland the curtains were see through and no heavy curtains over them.

cloudsail

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5278 on: April 05, 2019, 03:33:27 PM »
New to the forums and enjoying this thread. 

Back in 2008 when the housing market bubble crashed, I mentioned to my SIL that I was refinancing our house to take advantage of the 4+% drop in rates.  She confessed she rather keep her almost 9% rate than show anyone at the bank her full financial picture.  Ten years later the DH and I are debt and mortgage free and planning to RE in a few years.  SIL who makes more than DH and I combined, and who is married to second wage earner, recently complained that she will never be able to retire because of all their bills.

Update on this relative:  My DH was speaking with the SIL last night and mentioned that he recently quit his job because it had become too physically demanding.  No he didn't have the next job lined up when he quit, but we've got a few months saved up in the emergency fund so he has time to get his medical issues straightened out and can be picky about what he applies for next. (He may have also mentioned that he's a little less than three years away from being able to RE anyways - I wasn't in the room for this call.) My DH reports that the SIL blew her top and said "some of us DON'T have our mortgage paid off".

What I forgot to mention in the original post......the SIL works (high up) in the mortgage industry.

She was in the mortgage industry and couldn't see the sense in financing from a terrible rate???

Goldielocks

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5279 on: April 05, 2019, 05:57:47 PM »
New to the forums and enjoying this thread. 

Back in 2008 when the housing market bubble crashed, I mentioned to my SIL that I was refinancing our house to take advantage of the 4+% drop in rates.  She confessed she rather keep her almost 9% rate than show anyone at the bank her full financial picture.  Ten years later the DH and I are debt and mortgage free and planning to RE in a few years.  SIL who makes more than DH and I combined, and who is married to second wage earner, recently complained that she will never be able to retire because of all their bills.

Update on this relative:  My DH was speaking with the SIL last night and mentioned that he recently quit his job because it had become too physically demanding.  No he didn't have the next job lined up when he quit, but we've got a few months saved up in the emergency fund so he has time to get his medical issues straightened out and can be picky about what he applies for next. (He may have also mentioned that he's a little less than three years away from being able to RE anyways - I wasn't in the room for this call.) My DH reports that the SIL blew her top and said "some of us DON'T have our mortgage paid off".

What I forgot to mention in the original post......the SIL works (high up) in the mortgage industry.

She was in the mortgage industry and couldn't see the sense in financing from a terrible rate???
I am guessing that their credit rating and finances were so bad by then that there was a real risk of losing her job if her employer saw it... given her role in finance where you have to be credit worthy to not considered to be an embezzlement risk..  (?)

And that most employees get a "sweatheart" deal with their employer for their own mortgage, so it never would occur to them to shop it elsewhere because you don't do that as an employee of X company.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5280 on: April 06, 2019, 06:15:52 AM »
New to the forums and enjoying this thread. 

Back in 2008 when the housing market bubble crashed, I mentioned to my SIL that I was refinancing our house to take advantage of the 4+% drop in rates.  She confessed she rather keep her almost 9% rate than show anyone at the bank her full financial picture.  Ten years later the DH and I are debt and mortgage free and planning to RE in a few years.  SIL who makes more than DH and I combined, and who is married to second wage earner, recently complained that she will never be able to retire because of all their bills.

Update on this relative:  My DH was speaking with the SIL last night and mentioned that he recently quit his job because it had become too physically demanding.  No he didn't have the next job lined up when he quit, but we've got a few months saved up in the emergency fund so he has time to get his medical issues straightened out and can be picky about what he applies for next. (He may have also mentioned that he's a little less than three years away from being able to RE anyways - I wasn't in the room for this call.) My DH reports that the SIL blew her top and said "some of us DON'T have our mortgage paid off".

What I forgot to mention in the original post......the SIL works (high up) in the mortgage industry.

She was in the mortgage industry and couldn't see the sense in financing from a terrible rate???
I am guessing that their credit rating and finances were so bad by then that there was a real risk of losing her job if her employer saw it... given her role in finance where you have to be credit worthy to not considered to be an embezzlement risk..  (?)

And that most employees get a "sweatheart" deal with their employer for their own mortgage, so it never would occur to them to shop it elsewhere because you don't do that as an employee of X company.

And her "sweetheart" deal was over 9%. Oof.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5281 on: April 06, 2019, 11:35:10 AM »
New to the forums and enjoying this thread. 

Back in 2008 when the housing market bubble crashed, I mentioned to my SIL that I was refinancing our house to take advantage of the 4+% drop in rates.  She confessed she rather keep her almost 9% rate than show anyone at the bank her full financial picture.  Ten years later the DH and I are debt and mortgage free and planning to RE in a few years.  SIL who makes more than DH and I combined, and who is married to second wage earner, recently complained that she will never be able to retire because of all their bills.

Update on this relative:  My DH was speaking with the SIL last night and mentioned that he recently quit his job because it had become too physically demanding.  No he didn't have the next job lined up when he quit, but we've got a few months saved up in the emergency fund so he has time to get his medical issues straightened out and can be picky about what he applies for next. (He may have also mentioned that he's a little less than three years away from being able to RE anyways - I wasn't in the room for this call.) My DH reports that the SIL blew her top and said "some of us DON'T have our mortgage paid off".

What I forgot to mention in the original post......the SIL works (high up) in the mortgage industry.
She was in the mortgage industry and couldn't see the sense in financing from a terrible rate???
I am guessing that their credit rating and finances were so bad by then that there was a real risk of losing her job if her employer saw it... given her role in finance where you have to be credit worthy to not considered to be an embezzlement risk..  (?)

And that most employees get a "sweatheart" deal with their employer for their own mortgage, so it never would occur to them to shop it elsewhere because you don't do that as an employee of X company.

And her "sweetheart" deal was over 9%. Oof.
Well, the company did know one side of the finance equation.  Also, what better way to tie an employee down than with an albatross of debt?   Shades of the company store.  I wonder if the mortgage was tied to employment?

Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5282 on: April 08, 2019, 07:41:48 AM »
Learned this weekend from a relative: apparently wedding loans are <a thing people do>. (???????)

As in: 'my in-laws expect a style of wedding that runs +/- 60K, and are putting up 40K of that, so I'm going to take out a 20K loan because, since proposing a year and a half ago, we haven't been able to put aside any money in anticipation of this blessed event'. No word on how you're planning on paying off the 20K loan (that's roughly 50% of your take-home pay as a couple, mind - here's hoping your wedding guests are real generous, I guess?), and no hint of changing how you're celebrating said event to match the available 40K.

... no wonder they want cash presents.

(To be clear: their money, their life, their problems, their choices, and they're not whining to me or making it my business, so not really my business and I'm not actively judging - sometimes we all make iffy financial decisions because the finances are secondary to the relationships you're preserving, so, fine. I just can't imaging voluntarily digging a hole that big without a clear plan to dig a way back out, and it's scary to look at from the outside.)

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5283 on: April 08, 2019, 08:05:09 AM »
Learned this weekend from a relative: apparently wedding loans are <a thing people do>. (???????)

As in: 'my in-laws expect a style of wedding that runs +/- 60K, and are putting up 40K of that, so I'm going to take out a 20K loan because, since proposing a year and a half ago, we haven't been able to put aside any money in anticipation of this blessed event'. No word on how you're planning on paying off the 20K loan (that's roughly 50% of your take-home pay as a couple, mind - here's hoping your wedding guests are real generous, I guess?), and no hint of changing how you're celebrating said event to match the available 40K.

... no wonder they want cash presents.

(To be clear: their money, their life, their problems, their choices, and they're not whining to me or making it my business, so not really my business and I'm not actively judging - sometimes we all make iffy financial decisions because the finances are secondary to the relationships you're preserving, so, fine. I just can't imaging voluntarily digging a hole that big without a clear plan to dig a way back out, and it's scary to look at from the outside.)

Wow.   That's some special stupid.

They make $40k and they'll take out a loan for $20k to get married with?  Lordy!  That's stupid.

And the parents will spend $40k on this?   $40k could buy a house outright in my area.  It would need another $5k to $10k of work but a lot of that could be delayed a couple of years.

Boggles my mind.

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5284 on: April 08, 2019, 08:20:51 AM »
I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5285 on: April 08, 2019, 08:43:41 AM »
Well, lots of guests (culturally expected) in a very high COL area (we're in Canada, but... Toronto would probably be comparable to Los Angeles, for costs?)

I'd personally lean towards learning to say 'no' to family expectatations and doing something that's in the realm of what we can afford (as in: what we HAVE money for, not an abstract idea of 'affordable' - concrete 'do we have the $' question), and let family relationships deal (or not), but that also means accepting the fall-out of family relationships that don't recover for whatever reason. But I'm also better at being a brick wall of no than the average person, so... *shrugs* Not actively judging, but I'm quite pleased I'm not in that situation, it looks anxiety-inducing in the extreme. Here's hoping their culturally-expected guests are culturally-mandated-to-be-generous, I suppose!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 08:45:42 AM by Kitsune »

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5286 on: April 08, 2019, 09:10:38 AM »
I'm guessing that maybe they are Indian immigrants and this is an Indian wedding we're talking about?  I have friends who are Indian immigrants and their families expected them to invite hundreds of people.  It was crazy expensive and all about keeping up with the Joneses.

The most fun Indian wedding I've been to was between a friend who is an Indian immigrant in the US and another friend who is not Indian and was born and bred in the US.  Even though she is white, the bride wore a beautiful sari for the wedding, which her future mother in law bought in India for surprisingly little considering how stunning it was.  The groom wore traditional Indian attire and a turban.  The wedding was performed by an Episcopalian minister (bride was Episcopalian, groom non-practicing Hindu - family not that religious) and they had a Hindu blessing later during a trip to India.  The food was catered from an Indian restaurant and the we danced the night away to Bollywood music.  The bride put her foot down about costs so they had fewer than 100 guests.

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5287 on: April 08, 2019, 09:19:38 AM »
I have a friend from a culture where 600+ guests is the norm, but funny enough the weddings in her family are usually not that expensive. There are several very large, affordable venues in our area that specifically target these weddings, they are not that expensive and are already completely decorated. All the food for all of these guests is cooked by aunts and sisters and neighbours and the gifts are very generous. The big downside is that she's basically catering someone else's wedding for free once a month and isn't planning to get married herself (which is taboo in her culture).

We avoided our family's expectations by not getting married at all. We plan to elope some time in the future and expect some angry relatives when it happens, but at the same time no one is still expecting a wedding and I know they will be really happy that I'm finally wearing a ring. I'm just so glad I didn't grow up in my friend's family. It's so hard to find the balance between not offending your whole family (she loves them and wants a relationship with them) and living the life that you want to live.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5288 on: April 08, 2019, 09:34:34 AM »
Greek - I think she's a third or fourth generation immigrant? And a lot of it, culturally, seems to be about showing that the family CAN. Regardless of whether that's reflected in reality.

I mean, I come at this from the perspective of someone who made most of the food for our wedding (we hired someone to roast meat and did everything else ourselves - because there are no decent restaurants in a 20-mile radius), and had a fantastically fun country wedding for under 5K (and, y'know, feeding and boozing 130 people costs money, so 5K ain't the worst) - seriously, good time had by all. 60K just boggles. my. mind. Especially 60k that ain't there.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5289 on: April 10, 2019, 03:36:37 AM »
Greek - I think she's a third or fourth generation immigrant? And a lot of it, culturally, seems to be about showing that the family CAN. Regardless of whether that's reflected in reality.

Funnily enough, I've heard from a couple of Greek friends (ie born and grew up in Greece) that nowadays in Greece huge, traditional weddings are not the norm.  They were all shaking their heads at the movie "My big, fat Greek Wedding" as that is not really done nowadays in Greece.  In fact, a lot of people just live together and have kids and don't bother with a wedding at all.  But, as usual, immigrant communities preserve the social norms of a previous era.

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5290 on: April 10, 2019, 05:48:26 AM »
Greek - I think she's a third or fourth generation immigrant? And a lot of it, culturally, seems to be about showing that the family CAN. Regardless of whether that's reflected in reality.

Funnily enough, I've heard from a couple of Greek friends (ie born and grew up in Greece) that nowadays in Greece huge, traditional weddings are not the norm.  They were all shaking their heads at the movie "My big, fat Greek Wedding" as that is not really done nowadays in Greece.  In fact, a lot of people just live together and have kids and don't bother with a wedding at all.  But, as usual, immigrant communities preserve the social norms of a previous era.

Was that change brought on by the Greek government financial crisis, or was it already underway? 

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5291 on: April 10, 2019, 07:43:57 AM »
Greek - I think she's a third or fourth generation immigrant? And a lot of it, culturally, seems to be about showing that the family CAN. Regardless of whether that's reflected in reality.

Funnily enough, I've heard from a couple of Greek friends (ie born and grew up in Greece) that nowadays in Greece huge, traditional weddings are not the norm.  They were all shaking their heads at the movie "My big, fat Greek Wedding" as that is not really done nowadays in Greece.  In fact, a lot of people just live together and have kids and don't bother with a wedding at all.  But, as usual, immigrant communities preserve the social norms of a previous era.

Was that change brought on by the Greek government financial crisis, or was it already underway?

I got the impression that it was already underway quite a long time ago in Athens and a bit more recently in the countryside.  My friend who grew up in Athens is in his late 40s, so his youth pre-dated the economic crisis.  He has two children with his Greek ex-partner but they never married.  Apparently this was/is pretty normal in Greece (just like here in Italy - about half my friends are not married to the fathers of their children).  My other Greek friend is a bit younger - about 35 - and he lives here in Italy with his Italian partner.  No plans to get married even though they own an apartment together.  He said that in the small town in Greece where he comes from this is pretty normal nowadays - he has never mentioned parental pressure to get married - and big weddings like in My Big Fat Greek Wedding would be quite retro.

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5292 on: April 10, 2019, 11:10:08 AM »
The norm in Poland is still 2-3 day weddings.  It was a lot more fun than weddings in the states.

mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5293 on: April 10, 2019, 01:54:27 PM »
I'm guessing that maybe they are Indian immigrants and this is an Indian wedding we're talking about?  I have friends who are Indian immigrants and their families expected them to invite hundreds of people.  It was crazy expensive and all about keeping up with the Joneses.

The most fun Indian wedding I've been to was between a friend who is an Indian immigrant in the US and another friend who is not Indian and was born and bred in the US.  Even though she is white, the bride wore a beautiful sari for the wedding, which her future mother in law bought in India for surprisingly little considering how stunning it was.  The groom wore traditional Indian attire and a turban.  The wedding was performed by an Episcopalian minister (bride was Episcopalian, groom non-practicing Hindu - family not that religious) and they had a Hindu blessing later during a trip to India.  The food was catered from an Indian restaurant and the we danced the night away to Bollywood music.  The bride put her foot down about costs so they had fewer than 100 guests.
Prob one of my all time favorite weddings was Indian.  My coworker (from India) and his bride (second gen Indian American).  They had the whole shebang and it was GORGEOUS.  Once my boss told me that we weren't expected to pay attention for the whole 2+ hour ceremony.  The food was fantastic.  The saris...amazing.  Many of the guests needed to change out of the saris to their "party clothes" for the reception.  As we were staying at the hotel, I let them use our room and MAN the party dresses were just as good.  I love fabric and color.

Then a bunch of Pakistani-type techno dance music.  Good food, amazing fabrics, dance music, and friends??

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5294 on: April 11, 2019, 09:13:50 AM »
The norm in Poland is still 2-3 day weddings.  It was a lot more fun than weddings in the states.

A friend of mine married a Polish woman and they had the wedding in her hometown. I wasn't able to go but everyone told me it was one of the most fun weddings they'd ever been to.

My favorite wedding was a couple who invited all guests to the ceremony at the register office at 4.30 pm (usually in here only the close family and friends attend the civil ceremony itself). Then they hired off their favourite restaurant and we had a laid back party with really good food until 9 or 10 pm. No one was super tired or drunk and everyone got a chance to actually talk to the couple.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5295 on: April 11, 2019, 11:01:57 AM »
My son married a Polish woman and they feed a different food course every hour. Lots of alcohol but no one is drunk. They played a lot of funny games and most join in.  Some of the games involved the married couple or the parents of both. Lots of traditional group dancing.   Polish people are super friendly and inclusive. A few people spoke English and would translate.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5296 on: April 12, 2019, 02:09:51 PM »
I can't even imagine what a 60k wedding looks like. The most expensive wedding in my social circle that I know of was €15k and involved an actual castle for a venue, lots of guests, a horse drawn carriage and a very expensive dress. I thought that was a lot.

Don't forget fireworks. Must have fireworks.

gooki

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5297 on: April 12, 2019, 07:03:08 PM »
And cryogenic frozen butterflies.

ender

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5298 on: April 14, 2019, 07:19:34 PM »
My son married a Polish woman and they feed a different food course every hour. Lots of alcohol but no one is drunk. They played a lot of funny games and most join in.  Some of the games involved the married couple or the parents of both. Lots of traditional group dancing.   Polish people are super friendly and inclusive. A few people spoke English and would translate.

We did a barn dance at our wedding (basically square dancing with other group dances too).

1000x better than the traditional DJ music thing that is so popular now. Seriously, does anyone actually like that type of dance?

A bunch of our relatives looked embarrassed they enjoyed themselves, it was hilarious. "I don't dance" followed by that smile and awkward "I'm actually having fun this is weird" after getting them dragged out. Plus, group dances are so much easier to convince people to join with :-)

mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5299 on: April 15, 2019, 11:26:17 AM »
My son married a Polish woman and they feed a different food course every hour. Lots of alcohol but no one is drunk. They played a lot of funny games and most join in.  Some of the games involved the married couple or the parents of both. Lots of traditional group dancing.   Polish people are super friendly and inclusive. A few people spoke English and would translate.

We did a barn dance at our wedding (basically square dancing with other group dances too).

1000x better than the traditional DJ music thing that is so popular now. Seriously, does anyone actually like that type of dance?

A bunch of our relatives looked embarrassed they enjoyed themselves, it was hilarious. "I don't dance" followed by that smile and awkward "I'm actually having fun this is weird" after getting them dragged out. Plus, group dances are so much easier to convince people to join with :-)

Uh, me?

I liked that kind of dance in the mid-1990s when I got married too.  I love dancing! I embarrass the heck out of my kids if I'm ever dropping them at a school dance, or happen  to hear music and break out into dance.

Then again, I grew up having to do square dancing in gym class, and the hokey pokey or other line dances in high school, and pretty much grew to hate them.

Hated them so much I said "no hokey pokey, no chicken dance" to my DJ at my wedding. When my SIL asked for Macarena he said "sorry, bride says no line dances".  She begged, I was 3 glasses of wine in, and relented.

Then proceeded to hear the reggae version of Macarena 10x a day on our Caribbean honeymoon, sigh.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!