Relatives who just don't get it

[TartanTallulah]

...

at least she married a MAMIL. but crass behavior. Better have a 'No Soliciting' sign up at the party. That goes for anyone that tries peddling MLM crap.

Had to check but most of my gear is polyester and spandex - I think I am safe from that acronym.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandex

Lycra is a brand name for spandex aka elastane.
I'm a Mamil, admittedly, on certain weekends when I sit on my butt and do something with them legs.
[/quote]

My husband and I are MAMILs. Or OPILs, ;-) We have, on occasion, invited people to donate to charity in response to us doing a sporting event that's unusual or particularly stretching for us and blogging about our training and the event itself. And we sponsor other people who meet our criteria for sponsorship. But we'd never hijack a social event to ask for donations. That's just bad manners.

Interestingly, I did the local parkrun before the party and someone asked me what parkrun was and if I was doing it for charity.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

..
The almond charities don't have events of their own, but they sponsor competitors for different events such as, say, the Boston Marathon. The competitor is expected to raise money for the charity in amounts that greatly exceed whatever is spent on him or her. If they fail to do that, they are replaced by a volunteer who can and will. The athletes are expected to act like ambassadors for the charity in question and to actively promote the charity. It is something that generally only appeals to people with a strong emotional connection to the charity.
...

I love your summary of these!  Just a small correction:  The almond charities at events such as Boston require the participants to provide a credit card.  They aren't replaced if they fail to meet the fundraising minimum (which I believe is about $5k these days for the Boston-participating charities).  Instead, their credit card is charged for the difference between what they raised and the minimum.  So if you raised $2k from friends and family - bam, your credit card is hit with a $3k charge a couple of weeks before the event.

I know someone who is registering to run Boston next year with a charity.  She's already informed all of her friends that she'll be asking for a $50 donation from each.  "It's for cancer!" she told us.  Hmmm I think it's so she can run Boston but I'm a cynic like that.

Re: bolded part... there's one more twist. The following year, the runner who allows that to happen will lose their sponsorship and be replaced by a different athlete.

Another way of doing it is for the entry fee to be paid *only* for the highest-earning runner who raises the most money. That's problematic, logistics-wise because a lot of the folks running for the almond charities pay at least some of their own travel expenses.

[stashja]

I realise I sound like a horrible sister to my brother but I have no place else to vent about my parents’ doing their best to make sure he eventually ends up homeless, since my partner and I refuse to take him in. Anyway, in preparation for year 9 of his “studying” for the degree he will probably never earn, Mr. 35-Going-on-15 (my DH’s totally apt name for him) has agreed with my parents that he should move out of the rental apartment he shares with his former classmate Phil, who graduated about 5 years ago and is gainfully employed. Apparently, Phil’s socialising makes it hard for 35gf15 to “study” and THAT is the latest explanation of his academic and career rut. So what do my parents do? They find him his own apartment (rent: more than twice my mortgage) and now my mom is shopping Wayfair to furnish it for him. (What happened to his half of the other apartment’s furniture, which she bought a few years ago? Did the local thrift shops all close? Does Craigslist no longer exist?)

Anyway, thanks and sorry.

[Roadrunner53]

I realise I sound like a horrible sister to my brother but I have no place else to vent about my parents’ doing their best to make sure he eventually ends up homeless, since my partner and I refuse to take him in. Anyway, in preparation for year 9 of his “studying” for the degree he will probably never earn, Mr. 35-Going-on-15 (my DH’s totally apt name for him) has agreed with my parents that he should move out of the rental apartment he shares with his former classmate Phil, who graduated about 5 years ago and is gainfully employed. Apparently, Phil’s socialising makes it hard for 35gf15 to “study” and THAT is the latest explanation of his academic and career rut. So what do my parents do? They find him his own apartment (rent: more than twice my mortgage) and now my mom is shopping Wayfair to furnish it for him. (What happened to his half of the other apartment’s furniture, which she bought a few years ago? Did the local thrift shops all close? Does Craigslist no longer exist?)

Anyway, thanks and sorry.

No you are not a horrible sister. Your brother is in la la land and at 35 it is way past time to grow up. Your parents are enablers and he will never grow up.

When I was 35 I was a factory worker. Got married at age 19 almost 20. We saved our money like maniacs and two years later built our home. So at age 22 we moved into a brand new home with a mortgage of course. My hub and I changed jobs over the years and made more money. He eventually got his HVAC license and I ended up working for a R&D company. We continued to save like maniacs. We are now retired.

So what I am trying to say is that we came from humble beginnings. Me a factory worker and the hub not making that much money. But we evolved over the years and made a good life for ourselves.

Will your parents pay rent for him too? OMG!

[Tasse]

-The entire purpose of participating in a charitable endeavor is to raise money for the cause. I do not like charitable causes that require people to solicit money from friends or family to participate - you "running" is not raising money for the cause therefore, you are relying on sponsors to do it, and for me that's a no. Just like the whole ALS ice bucket challenge - make a viral sensation on the internet where people actively avoid giving money to charity by instead dumping ice water on themselves.

I totally agree with the sentiment that was going around the thread up above, but it's important to realize this sort of viral marketing (a) brought awareness of ALS into the mainstream, and (b) actually raised millions of dollars. And a lot of that money went not only to support people living with the disease, but also researchers working on understanding it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/28/health/the-ice-bucket-challenge-helped-scientists-discover-a-new-gene-tied-to-als.html

As a life sciences researcher - in what is becoming an increasingly parched funding climate - perhaps that matters more to me than to the average person. But I think this example deserves to be in a slightly different category than paying to attend a fancy charity gala, for example. No money was "wasted" making the donors feel good about themselves. You donated, or you were punished in an amusing public forum. I donated. And I never would have otherwise - it wouldn't have occurred to me.

EDIT: Removed giant chart for ease of reading. Chart showing distribution of ice bucket challenge funds here: http://www.alsa.org/assets/images/ibc/ALS-IBC-infographic-mobile1.png

[stashja]

No you are not a horrible sister. Your brother is in la la land and at 35 it is way past time to grow up. Your parents are enablers and he will never grow up.

When I was 35 I was a factory worker. Got married at age 19 almost 20. We saved our money like maniacs and two years later built our home. So at age 22 we moved into a brand new home with a mortgage of course. My hub and I changed jobs over the years and made more money. He eventually got his HVAC license and I ended up working for a R&D company. We continued to save like maniacs. We are now retired.

So what I am trying to say is that we came from humble beginnings. Me a factory worker and the hub not making that much money. But we evolved over the years and made a good life for ourselves.

Will your parents pay rent for him too? OMG!

I admire people who have taken your journey, RR. I hope you and your husband are enjoying your retirement.

They say that because he is paying his own rent and has since a few months after being fired from his last job but one (about a year ago) he is doing fine. I work in education so I know his situation is not normal nor good. I don’t want him to be homeless. Oh, and his idea of a mixed drink last Christmas nearly knocked out my DH, who is 6’3, but had no effect on 35go15. I see him so infrequently I guess it’s possible it’s high tolerance and not alcoholism, but I have no idea.

[shelivesthedream]

It's absolutely the banana charities I have a problem with - my beef being with sponsorship, not with events. And it's partly because I do think it's something for nothing. "Sponsor me to hop a thousand times!" Why? Why should I give you money for hopping? What do I get out of it? Nothing. So you might as well ask me donate based on the charity's need and merits and not bother with the hopping.

[mm1970]

What I've learned is, depending on the school, this is how people like to donate money:
...
3.  "Come to dinner at X pizza place and the school gets part of the proceeds."  How about instead of spending $50 so that the school gets $7.50, I just give you ten bucks and eat at home?  (This is tricky though, as it also supports a local business that supports the school.)
...

This one drives me nuts - these are posted on FB about once a week in my community, for various fundraisers like the high school girls' volleyball team, or "help buy junior's family a wheelchair van."  Even if the entire community turns out and spends $5k on sub sandwiches or pizza or whatever that night, junior's family only ends up with $500 for their new van.  I like a variation on your idea better: Each family that wants to participate buys a Costco pizza for their dinner for $10 and then gives $40 to the charity.  A much better split, IMO.

I write a check to my kids' PTAs in the beginning of school year with a note that says "Please considered the enclosed money a donation in lieu of participation in fundraisers".   

I help with events at the school and donate time as well, but do not help with much fundraising and refuse to buy anything related to them.   It has worked well for years and most PTA treasurers and presidents have thanked me since most parents just refuse to participate or give anything.

Yep.  We love you guys.

My kindergartner's best friend this year - the only mom on the playground older than me! - asked me what kind of donation would be the "guilt-free, leave me alone!" number.  I told her how much we donate (I do volunteer too, but I'm a sucker.) 

[TheGrimSqueaker]

It's absolutely the banana charities I have a problem with - my beef being with sponsorship, not with events. And it's partly because I do think it's something for nothing. "Sponsor me to hop a thousand times!" Why? Why should I give you money for hopping? What do I get out of it? Nothing. So you might as well ask me donate based on the charity's need and merits and not bother with the hopping.

You are looking at it from a donor perspective. I tend to look at it from a programmatic perspective. Neither perspective is inherently "right" or "wrong" it just depends on where a person is standing.

My experience is that when a group of people help to raise the money they collectively benefit from, their attitude toward the resources is different from their attitude if they don't have to do anything to earn the money and it just falls from the sky.

In youth sports in the United States and Canada, there's a bit of a jock entitlement attitude that creeps in when all the kids have to do is show up and enjoy the results of someone else's effort. The mentality is: "I'm so good, people pay just for me to show up." They start thinking of themselves as mini-professionals, and the "more talented" ones tend to take it to an extreme. It fosters a certain arrogance toward the volunteers and other people who make it possible. Requiring them to hop a thousand times, for example, or to participate in some other annoying and meaningless or even painful task, gives them a sense of ownership in the organization and helps them better appreciate the new jerseys or whatever else they're buying. It also makes them less obnoxious.

Hence the banana.

[Raymond Reddington]

It's absolutely the banana charities I have a problem with - my beef being with sponsorship, not with events. And it's partly because I do think it's something for nothing. "Sponsor me to hop a thousand times!" Why? Why should I give you money for hopping? What do I get out of it? Nothing. So you might as well ask me donate based on the charity's need and merits and not bother with the hopping.

You are looking at it from a donor perspective. I tend to look at it from a programmatic perspective. Neither perspective is inherently "right" or "wrong" it just depends on where a person is standing.

My experience is that when a group of people help to raise the money they collectively benefit from, their attitude toward the resources is different from their attitude if they don't have to do anything to earn the money and it just falls from the sky.

In youth sports in the United States and Canada, there's a bit of a jock entitlement attitude that creeps in when all the kids have to do is show up and enjoy the results of someone else's effort. The mentality is: "I'm so good, people pay just for me to show up." They start thinking of themselves as mini-professionals, and the "more talented" ones tend to take it to an extreme. It fosters a certain arrogance toward the volunteers and other people who make it possible. Requiring them to hop a thousand times, for example, or to participate in some other annoying and meaningless or even painful task, gives them a sense of ownership in the organization and helps them better appreciate the new jerseys or whatever else they're buying. It also makes them less obnoxious.

Hence the banana.

I generally agree that athletes in today's culture are entitled, but that it could be mitigated better than by making them sell candy in the subway, run in circles, or some of the other things they've been asked to do.

IMO the entitlement in today's athletes stems from:
-Parents' refusal to enforce basic adult behavior on the field, even in small kids. That means you carry your equipment, that means you hustle, you support your teammates, and (most important) the parents do not undermine the coach by crying about playing time. Failure to do any of those things results in punishment, which has to be tailored for the kid. Maybe making fun of a poor kid's glove means the kid's glove is confiscated and he has to play with a crappy glove, or maybe it means he sits out a game. Arguing with the ref or ump means a suspension. Getting benched by the coach means not entertaining the whining when the kid comes home upset he didn't play much. Parents are the biggest influence on their kids, and in sports, this has become outrageous. Kids need to learn how to fail, and how to recover from it. And they need to be kids. They don't need to be playing the sports the parents think they'll go pro in 12 months out of the year. If anything, that just increases the risk of a serious injury as muscles need time in the offseason to recover.
-The cultural phenomenon created by ESPN and other media stations where the focus is always on who is next. This has led to the mass marketing of college athletics, and even high school athletics, which, always popular in some circles, have now become a national excuse to gamble. This exploits the unpaid labor of the athletes, while also providing them with a sense of entitlement that they should not have at this fragile point in their working and earning careers by sticking cameras in their face, asking them about political events in society, and televising their decisions on where to go to school/play, as well as hyping them so much that even the most humble athlete starts to get a big head. This is coupled with the failure of most leagues to provide enough good and repeated information on personal finance once the player turns pro, that many get in trouble. Given the amounts of money owners and leagues are raking in from inflated ticket prices and media contracts, there is certainly more that can be done here. Personally, I find it impossible to root for *any* spoiled athlete. I understand their motivation to monetize their career as much as possible, but it's more how they react to adversity, their status with our laws, etc. that if they cross a line, I just can't root for them.
-Participation trophies have weakened the sense of accomplishment among younger kids especially. Many kids are even embarrassed to receive them.

You see this in many high school and college athletes as well, who DON'T go on to have the same success, yet it's rarely talked about. The values of sports as a pursuit for children is that they instill values of teamwork, cooperation, sportsmanship, working towards a goal, preparation, and performance under pressure. We've gotten away from that, and a lot of the uncivil behavior and win at all costs mentality, IMO, is as a result of kids who were taught the opposite values growing up.

[SwordGuy]

I generally agree that athletes in today's culture are entitled,

I think they've been that way for quite some generations.   It's nothing new.   

Until US society values learning and kindness more than the ability to carry a piece of dead pig across a field, it will stay that way.

[DocCyane]

I moved a year ago with my partner from Los Angeles to Small Town, Indiana to FIRE and finally afford a house. My partner chose to go back to L.A. for one year to continue work and add another year to her pension. Ergo, I was alone for the first winter, which was a doozy.

My father, who also lives in Small Town, could not believe I intended to keep my 2005 Mini Cooper when surely a blizzard would come and destroy me in such a car. Since I didn’t have to go to work daily, I was confident I could get to where I needed to go without a big truck despite winter snow since nothing was mandatory. My partner and I would get a second, bigger vehicle once she came home permanently.

My father was so bothered by my refusal to get a new vehicle, he traded in his perfectly good, eight year old Toyota Tundra and bought another showroom floor Tundra for $53,000.

My brother had wanted the old Tundra, but since Dad didn’t sell it to him, he went out and LEASED a Toyota 4Runner (which he doesn’t need because he doesn’t live in snow.)

Brother’s wife decided she didn’t like her two-year old Toyota Highlander and traded that LEASE in for a Toyota Sienna.

Finally, my partner returned home and we got a 4Runner, which we’d been planning all along since her 14 year old Jeep Liberty was past its prime and was two wheel drive. We just gave the Jeep to some California friends with a landscaping business.

In the end, my refusal to buy a new car was so upsetting that it caused my entire family to buy new cars. And I still have my Mini Cooper. People be crazy.

[Sibley]

I moved a year ago with my partner from Los Angeles to Small Town, Indiana to FIRE and finally afford a house. My partner chose to go back to L.A. for one year to continue work and add another year to her pension. Ergo, I was alone for the first winter, which was a doozy.

My father, who also lives in Small Town, could not believe I intended to keep my 2005 Mini Cooper when surely a blizzard would come and destroy me in such a car. Since I didn’t have to go to work daily, I was confident I could get to where I needed to go without a big truck despite winter snow since nothing was mandatory. My partner and I would get a second, bigger vehicle once she came home permanently.

My father was so bothered by my refusal to get a new vehicle, he traded in his perfectly good, eight year old Toyota Tundra and bought another showroom floor Tundra for $53,000.

My brother had wanted the old Tundra, but since Dad didn’t sell it to him, he went out and LEASED a Toyota 4Runner (which he doesn’t need because he doesn’t live in snow.)

Brother’s wife decided she didn’t like her two-year old Toyota Highlander and traded that LEASE in for a Toyota Sienna.

Finally, my partner returned home and we got a 4Runner, which we’d been planning all along since her 14 year old Jeep Liberty was past its prime and was two wheel drive. We just gave the Jeep to some California friends with a landscaping business.

In the end, my refusal to buy a new car was so upsetting that it caused my entire family to buy new cars. And I still have my Mini Cooper. People be crazy.

What?!? You're retired, as long as you've got plenty of supplies you can stay home indefinitely. Your family is nuts.

[merula]

I moved a year ago with my partner from Los Angeles to Small Town, Indiana to FIRE and finally afford a house. My partner chose to go back to L.A. for one year to continue work and add another year to her pension. Ergo, I was alone for the first winter, which was a doozy.

My Honda Fit-driving, Minnesotan self is laughing uproariously at your family's insistence that Indiana winters require such ridiculous vehicles.

Keep your Mini Cooper (if you want; not my favorite car), and ignore them. You'll be fine.

[solon]

I moved a year ago with my partner from Los Angeles to Small Town, Indiana to FIRE and finally afford a house. My partner chose to go back to L.A. for one year to continue work and add another year to her pension. Ergo, I was alone for the first winter, which was a doozy.

My father, who also lives in Small Town, could not believe I intended to keep my 2005 Mini Cooper when surely a blizzard would come and destroy me in such a car. Since I didn’t have to go to work daily, I was confident I could get to where I needed to go without a big truck despite winter snow since nothing was mandatory. My partner and I would get a second, bigger vehicle once she came home permanently.

My father was so bothered by my refusal to get a new vehicle, he traded in his perfectly good, eight year old Toyota Tundra and bought another showroom floor Tundra for $53,000.

My brother had wanted the old Tundra, but since Dad didn’t sell it to him, he went out and LEASED a Toyota 4Runner (which he doesn’t need because he doesn’t live in snow.)

Brother’s wife decided she didn’t like her two-year old Toyota Highlander and traded that LEASE in for a Toyota Sienna.

Finally, my partner returned home and we got a 4Runner, which we’d been planning all along since her 14 year old Jeep Liberty was past its prime and was two wheel drive. We just gave the Jeep to some California friends with a landscaping business.

In the end, my refusal to buy a new car was so upsetting that it caused my entire family to buy new cars. And I still have my Mini Cooper. People be crazy.

Lot of Toyota lovers in your family, huh?

[jinga nation]

I moved a year ago with my partner from Los Angeles to Small Town, Indiana to FIRE and finally afford a house. My partner chose to go back to L.A. for one year to continue work and add another year to her pension. Ergo, I was alone for the first winter, which was a doozy.

My father, who also lives in Small Town, could not believe I intended to keep my 2005 Mini Cooper when surely a blizzard would come and destroy me in such a car. Since I didn’t have to go to work daily, I was confident I could get to where I needed to go without a big truck despite winter snow since nothing was mandatory. My partner and I would get a second, bigger vehicle once she came home permanently.

My father was so bothered by my refusal to get a new vehicle, he traded in his perfectly good, eight year old Toyota Tundra and bought another showroom floor Tundra for $53,000.

My brother had wanted the old Tundra, but since Dad didn’t sell it to him, he went out and LEASED a Toyota 4Runner (which he doesn’t need because he doesn’t live in snow.)

Brother’s wife decided she didn’t like her two-year old Toyota Highlander and traded that LEASE in for a Toyota Sienna.

Finally, my partner returned home and we got a 4Runner, which we’d been planning all along since her 14 year old Jeep Liberty was past its prime and was two wheel drive. We just gave the Jeep to some California friends with a landscaping business.

In the end, my refusal to buy a new car was so upsetting that it caused my entire family to buy new cars. And I still have my Mini Cooper. People be crazy.

I have heard from an ex-car salesman that the above scenario is a dealer's dream. Just one sale can cause a cascade in a family or a neighborhood where keeping up with the Jones' is the norm. Envy and greed satisfied in the vulture's lot. 

[pachnik]

I moved a year ago with my partner from Los Angeles to Small Town, Indiana to FIRE and finally afford a house. My partner chose to go back to L.A. for one year to continue work and add another year to her pension. Ergo, I was alone for the first winter, which was a doozy.

My father, who also lives in Small Town, could not believe I intended to keep my 2005 Mini Cooper when surely a blizzard would come and destroy me in such a car. Since I didn’t have to go to work daily, I was confident I could get to where I needed to go without a big truck despite winter snow since nothing was mandatory. My partner and I would get a second, bigger vehicle once she came home permanently.

My father was so bothered by my refusal to get a new vehicle, he traded in his perfectly good, eight year old Toyota Tundra and bought another showroom floor Tundra for $53,000.

My brother had wanted the old Tundra, but since Dad didn’t sell it to him, he went out and LEASED a Toyota 4Runner (which he doesn’t need because he doesn’t live in snow.)

Brother’s wife decided she didn’t like her two-year old Toyota Highlander and traded that LEASE in for a Toyota Sienna.

Finally, my partner returned home and we got a 4Runner, which we’d been planning all along since her 14 year old Jeep Liberty was past its prime and was two wheel drive. We just gave the Jeep to some California friends with a landscaping business.

In the end, my refusal to buy a new car was so upsetting that it caused my entire family to buy new cars. And I still have my Mini Cooper. People be crazy.

I have heard from an ex-car salesman that the above scenario is a dealer's dream. Just one sale can cause a cascade in a family or a neighborhood where keeping up with the Jones' is the norm. Envy and greed satisfied in the vulture's lot.

What a crazy flurry of new car buying! 

I am not surprised that one sale can cascade in a family.  Here's my version of that.  In 2009, I finally got tired of my VW beetle (a 2000) because the 'check engine' light kept coming on.  That car was a lemon IMO.  Anyway, I went out and bought a new 2009 Honda Civic.  Right after that my dad crashed my parents' Toyota Tercel so they went out and bought a Yaris.   Sometime that year my brother and SIL also bought a Civic sedan.  We all still have those same cars in 2018 and have no intention of starting a new car cascade anytime soon.

[Just Joe]

Wow - a Tundra can cost $60K+ loaded out... Ouch!

I guess my 4WD crewcab daydream will be a base Mahindra 4-door if they ever sell them here.

I assume Mahindra would sell something cheaper and more basic than any of the brands currently selling trucks in the USA.

[Blackeagle]

In the end, my refusal to buy a new car was so upsetting that it caused my entire family to buy new cars. And I still have my Mini Cooper. People be crazy.

That is hilarious.  Also a bit horrifying.

[penguintroopers]

I moved a year ago with my partner from Los Angeles to Small Town, Indiana to FIRE and finally afford a house. My partner chose to go back to L.A. for one year to continue work and add another year to her pension. Ergo, I was alone for the first winter, which was a doozy.

My father, who also lives in Small Town, could not believe I intended to keep my 2005 Mini Cooper when surely a blizzard would come and destroy me in such a car. Since I didn’t have to go to work daily, I was confident I could get to where I needed to go without a big truck despite winter snow since nothing was mandatory. My partner and I would get a second, bigger vehicle once she came home permanently.

My father was so bothered by my refusal to get a new vehicle, he traded in his perfectly good, eight year old Toyota Tundra and bought another showroom floor Tundra for $53,000.

My brother had wanted the old Tundra, but since Dad didn’t sell it to him, he went out and LEASED a Toyota 4Runner (which he doesn’t need because he doesn’t live in snow.)

Brother’s wife decided she didn’t like her two-year old Toyota Highlander and traded that LEASE in for a Toyota Sienna.

Finally, my partner returned home and we got a 4Runner, which we’d been planning all along since her 14 year old Jeep Liberty was past its prime and was two wheel drive. We just gave the Jeep to some California friends with a landscaping business.

In the end, my refusal to buy a new car was so upsetting that it caused my entire family to buy new cars. And I still have my Mini Cooper. People be crazy.

I have heard from an ex-car salesman that the above scenario is a dealer's dream. Just one sale can cause a cascade in a family or a neighborhood where keeping up with the Jones' is the norm. Envy and greed satisfied in the vulture's lot.

What a crazy flurry of new car buying! 

I am not surprised that one sale can cascade in a family.  Here's my version of that.  In 2009, I finally got tired of my VW beetle (a 2000) because the 'check engine' light kept coming on.  That car was a lemon IMO.  Anyway, I went out and bought a new 2009 Honda Civic.  Right after that my dad crashed my parents' Toyota Tercel so they went out and bought a Yaris.   Sometime that year my brother and SIL also bought a Civic sedan.  We all still have those same cars in 2018 and have no intention of starting a new car cascade anytime soon.

Haha, it totally does. Hubby and I bought a new-to-us car 10 months ago that turned out to be a major lemon. We re-evaluated our wants and needs, upped our budget, and got another new-to-us car about a week and a half ago.

Cue MIL and FIL wanting another new-to-them vehicle. They want a large SUV, despite the fact that they went from being a five person family to a three person family. The thinking is "hey, what about when the kids (and relevant significant others) come home for holidays, everyone needs a seat in our SUV!". Me: but that's only a few times per year, and if you get a smaller vehicle you can have better gas mileage. MIL: Everything will have better gas mileage than the old truck (GMC Yukon), so that doesn't really matter much.

Me: but you could get a great Toyota Prius v, which does all the things you want, is within your budget, and gets 50 mpg....

MIL: Lol, no.

At least I tried.

[kimmarg]

My Honda Fit-driving, Minnesotan self is laughing uproariously at your family's insistence that Indiana winters require such ridiculous vehicles.

Keep your Mini Cooper (if you want; not my favorite car), and ignore them. You'll be fine.

I know, right? I drive a Honda Fit in Maine!

[Sibley]

Ok, new one. Venting here.

I love my parents, I really do, but dear lord are they CRAP at financial decisions. They somehow managed to accumulate $10k+ in credit card debt, and were paying 15 or 20% interest on it. I helped them do a balance transfer to a 0% interest card, have emphasized repeatedly all along that they want to pay off as much as they can. Well, the offer is up next week. I'd done a bit of research and identified a card they could move the balance to (important info: there will soon be 2 new income streams coming in that should be dedicated to debt payoff. This should be close to $2k a month. Now since mom does the bills and she's beyond crap at budgeting, I will have to stay on top of that to make sure it happens.)

But no! They got discouraged with the option I'd found, and instead of chatting with me (they're leaning heavily on me to for help with this stuff) decided to CLOSE the credit card. They're going to get a loan from Lending Tree to pay off the credit card.

All I can say is, I really, really want to just cut up all the credit cards. They don't know how to use them properly, and they're just shooting themselves in the foot, repeatedly.

And that's on top of the whole mess with the house. I'm not even getting into that.

[Roadrunner53]

My in-laws were horrible with money. They were not rich and would buy stupid stuff they couldn't afford on credit and would blow money eating out in diners all the while the electric company would turn off the electric. They would run out of heating oil. Then would buy stupid collectible stuff from Danbury Mint where they had to buy the whole collection. Every few months a new addition to the collection would be offered. Then FIL had a bunch of expensive hobbies that he had to spend tons of money on. Then with the collectibles, they had to buy curio cabinets to display this junk. They had no room for the cabinets so it was all jammed into tight corners. Plus, they smoked like chimneys so the collectibles got covered in nicotine. UGH!

I know this woman who used to work at a corporation and made good money. While she was working she bought all these collectibles and after she retired she continued to do so. She and her BF who lived together have a small condo. I have never been there but have been told numerous times that it is so packed with collectibles that there is only a small path to go from one room to the other. It is piled high with this junk! Her credit card debt is over $100,000 from this junk and she did take some vacations with the credit card. She can barely pay the minimum payments and is retired now so on a limited income. I am sure she never saved any money while working. What is wrong with people thinking they need this crap when they have no room for it and can't afford it either?

[Threshkin]

My in-laws were horrible with money. They were not rich and would buy stupid stuff they couldn't afford on credit and would blow money eating out in diners all the while the electric company would turn off the electric. They would run out of heating oil. Then would buy stupid collectible stuff from Danbury Mint where they had to buy the whole collection. Every few months a new addition to the collection would be offered. Then FIL had a bunch of expensive hobbies that he had to spend tons of money on. Then with the collectibles, they had to buy curio cabinets to display this junk. They had no room for the cabinets so it was all jammed into tight corners. Plus, they smoked like chimneys so the collectibles got covered in nicotine. UGH!

I know this woman who used to work at a corporation and made good money. While she was working she bought all these collectibles and after she retired she continued to do so. She and her BF who lived together have a small condo. I have never been there but have been told numerous times that it is so packed with collectibles that there is only a small path to go from one room to the other. It is piled high with this junk! Her credit card debt is over $100,000 from this junk and she did take some vacations with the credit card. She can barely pay the minimum payments and is retired now so on a limited income. I am sure she never saved any money while working. What is wrong with people thinking they need this crap when they have no room for it and can't afford it either?

Obsessive-compulsive behavior.  Another form is people who save compulsively and absolutely refuse to spend their money.

[FatCat]

My in-laws were horrible with money. They were not rich and would buy stupid stuff they couldn't afford on credit and would blow money eating out in diners all the while the electric company would turn off the electric. They would run out of heating oil. Then would buy stupid collectible stuff from Danbury Mint where they had to buy the whole collection. Every few months a new addition to the collection would be offered. Then FIL had a bunch of expensive hobbies that he had to spend tons of money on. Then with the collectibles, they had to buy curio cabinets to display this junk. They had no room for the cabinets so it was all jammed into tight corners. Plus, they smoked like chimneys so the collectibles got covered in nicotine. UGH!

I know this woman who used to work at a corporation and made good money. While she was working she bought all these collectibles and after she retired she continued to do so. She and her BF who lived together have a small condo. I have never been there but have been told numerous times that it is so packed with collectibles that there is only a small path to go from one room to the other. It is piled high with this junk! Her credit card debt is over $100,000 from this junk and she did take some vacations with the credit card. She can barely pay the minimum payments and is retired now so on a limited income. I am sure she never saved any money while working. What is wrong with people thinking they need this crap when they have no room for it and can't afford it either?

Sometimes they think the collectables will be worth more someday. Or maybe they just like them. I knew someone with a massive beanie baby collection. Her walls were covered in them. Garage full of them. You couldn't walk through the house for all the beanie babies and garbage. When she died they were all thrown in the trash. Her son didn't want to sort the collection to see if any were worth anything. His friends said they would do if it they could get a cut of the value, but he said he wanted all the money from any sale. Since he wanted other people to do all the work and give him all the money he ended up with nothing.

[Roadrunner53]

My husbands aunt became a hoarder late in life. Very weird. When she passed away, her apartment was floor to ceiling with stuff and lots of it was from QVC in original bags and boxes and never used. Her apartment was infested with bed bugs and every single thing had to be thrown out. A clean up company had to come in with special gear so they didn't get eaten by the bugs. This was in an old, old apartment building and most likely no way to get rid of these bugs unless the whole building was fumigated. As far as I know, only her apartment was fumigated. I am sure the bed bugs were not brought in by her but her apartment got infested by others in the building. Probably every single apartment was infested. UGH! I had visited the apartment many years ago when her parents lived there and it was a tidy apartment. Can't imagine how this hoarder thing happened.

[Just Joe]

Our reputation in the family recently switched from poor to "frugal" when they figured out we make a good income x2 but spend a fraction of it (appearances). We were volun-told that we'd be hosting the elders in their old age b/c the rest of the family isn't settled or prosperous enough. Ahhh, yeah. More discussion is necessary...

It's the result of a long term spending problem by several parts of the family including our elders.

Maybe DW and I need to build a Sears catalog cottage in the backyard.

We love them but we'd rather have them near us, not necessarily under the same roof. ;)

[Sibley]

Ok, so since everyone got onto the STUFF category, I feel up to discussing the basement of my parent's house.

House is old. Old enough that something has happened to the drainage tiles around the foundation, and there is now a small water problem that will eventually destroy the foundation if not remediated. Fixing it involves cutting into the basement slab all around the foundation, digging down, putting in drainage, and there will be a sump pump. This is pretty major work. In order to do this, they will need to clear 4-5 feet all around the basement to give access. In order to clear 4-5 feet in the basement, they will have to move a shit ton of stuff. 75% of it isn't used, won't be used, should go away.

Separately, there have been discussions for the last couple years about selling the house and them moving near me (300 miles away). In preparation for an eventual move, mom has been going through things and decluttering. She's gotten rid of a TON of stuff. Recently, I hit upon the idea of having her open, sort, and repack everything, then put a label on each box of keep or sell. It's needed - the boxes are 20 years old, they will not survive a move. When they do move, any box labeled keep gets put in the truck, no thought process needed. It also gets around some other problems with the process due to my dad's dementia.

Mom liked this idea. So she has been doing this. She's gone through most of the attic and a big chunk of the basement, and has been stacking up the sell boxes all in one area. She has in fact completely filled that area up.

How do these 2 very different topics intersect? The sell boxes are in the basement. Given the amount of stuff in the basement in general, in order to do the basement work, they basically need to get all these sell boxes out, then shuffle other stuff into that spot (most of which other stuff should go away too). However, while mom has labeled these boxes "sell", there doesn't seem to be much intention of doing anything with them now, just "later". Never mind the multiple pieces of large furniture in the basement which need to go and I can't move.

Then lets add in that they DO NOT have the money for the basement stuff, doing it won't add value to the house, and given age and tolerance, they are not capable of actually dealing with the work anyway.

My sister and I have suggested that they sell the house now, as is, with 2 tenants - them and their upstairs tenant. They can continue to live there for another year or so with no maintenance/repair responsibilities. Mom and dad separately say they want to sell now, but despite our best efforts, we haven't been able to coordinate a conversation where all this is said!

We're at a standstill. ugh. thanks for letting me vent

[ms]

...I feel up to discussing the basement of my parent's house.

House is old. Old enough that something has happened to the drainage tiles around the foundation, and there is now a small water problem that will eventually destroy the foundation if not remediated. Fixing it involves cutting into the basement slab all around the foundation, digging down, putting in drainage, and there will be a sump pump. This is pretty major work.

snip snip

Out of curiosity, is there no solution that involves weather proofing the basement from the outside? We just did that on our 60 year old bungalow where they dug out around and sealed the foundation and put in new weeping tile on the perimeter. They also put a sump pump in the cold room. Let me tell you how happy we were when it was raining and we saw that sump pump spew water out for the first time.

The job cost about 12 grand, so not cheap either but the cutting the slab sounds very major.

Sorry to hear about the basement hoard of stuff - that's not an easy hurdle.

[Sibley]

...I feel up to discussing the basement of my parent's house.

House is old. Old enough that something has happened to the drainage tiles around the foundation, and there is now a small water problem that will eventually destroy the foundation if not remediated. Fixing it involves cutting into the basement slab all around the foundation, digging down, putting in drainage, and there will be a sump pump. This is pretty major work.

snip snip

Out of curiosity, is there no solution that involves weather proofing the basement from the outside? We just did that on our 60 year old bungalow where they dug out around and sealed the foundation and put in new weeping tile on the perimeter. They also put a sump pump in the cold room. Let me tell you how happy we were when it was raining and we saw that sump pump spew water out for the first time.

The job cost about 12 grand, so not cheap either but the cutting the slab sounds very major.

Sorry to hear about the basement hoard of stuff - that's not an easy hurdle.

Going from the inside is about $12k. Doing the outside is $20k. They've gotten quotes both ways.

[Raymond Reddington]

Ok, so since everyone got onto the STUFF category, I feel up to discussing the basement of my parent's house.

House is old. Old enough that something has happened to the drainage tiles around the foundation, and there is now a small water problem that will eventually destroy the foundation if not remediated. Fixing it involves cutting into the basement slab all around the foundation, digging down, putting in drainage, and there will be a sump pump. This is pretty major work. In order to do this, they will need to clear 4-5 feet all around the basement to give access. In order to clear 4-5 feet in the basement, they will have to move a shit ton of stuff. 75% of it isn't used, won't be used, should go away.

Separately, there have been discussions for the last couple years about selling the house and them moving near me (300 miles away). In preparation for an eventual move, mom has been going through things and decluttering. She's gotten rid of a TON of stuff. Recently, I hit upon the idea of having her open, sort, and repack everything, then put a label on each box of keep or sell. It's needed - the boxes are 20 years old, they will not survive a move. When they do move, any box labeled keep gets put in the truck, no thought process needed. It also gets around some other problems with the process due to my dad's dementia.

Mom liked this idea. So she has been doing this. She's gone through most of the attic and a big chunk of the basement, and has been stacking up the sell boxes all in one area. She has in fact completely filled that area up.

How do these 2 very different topics intersect? The sell boxes are in the basement. Given the amount of stuff in the basement in general, in order to do the basement work, they basically need to get all these sell boxes out, then shuffle other stuff into that spot (most of which other stuff should go away too). However, while mom has labeled these boxes "sell", there doesn't seem to be much intention of doing anything with them now, just "later". Never mind the multiple pieces of large furniture in the basement which need to go and I can't move.

Then lets add in that they DO NOT have the money for the basement stuff, doing it won't add value to the house, and given age and tolerance, they are not capable of actually dealing with the work anyway.

My sister and I have suggested that they sell the house now, as is, with 2 tenants - them and their upstairs tenant. They can continue to live there for another year or so with no maintenance/repair responsibilities. Mom and dad separately say they want to sell now, but despite our best efforts, we haven't been able to coordinate a conversation where all this is said!

We're at a standstill. ugh. thanks for letting me vent

And to think my hoarder grandmother (RIP) !solved! that problem by putting newspaper down in the basement to soak up the moisture! Sad part is after she passed my uncle who lives there now has done absolutely nothing to clean the house. There was a two feet wide space to walk through the house, that's it. Everything else was piles of junk and plastic bags full of junk. Food that expired twenty years ago. Periodicals, magazines, and church bulletins for the last 30 years. The freezer hadn't been defrosted since the Clinton presidency. The oven had barely ever been used, because that was where bread got stored. I once stayed with them for a summer when I was in school. Two full van loads of crap I took to a dumpster (with her permission, of course) made a barely noticeable difference. And I'm talking like, can't see out the rear view mirror full. It got so bad I just couldn't go up there anymore.

And that was years ago, I can't even imagine how bad it is now. For the life of me, I don't get how people get so attached to stuff they can't even enjoy their living space. "Collectibles" are particularly odious to me. Buying and saving junk cuz it might be worth more money someday. AKA mindless speculation. I'd rather accumulate space (land), freedom (money), knowledge, experience, and skills.

[Roadrunner53]

My aunt and uncle (now deceased) collected antiques. They had some old house they moved out of and I believe it was such a junk hole and falling apart they had to get out. So they bought antiques (furniture) and stored them there. Last I heard the house had basically self destructed because of holes in the roof and other issues. So they spent money on these antiques, stored them in a junk hole and lost everything. Not to mention they held onto it so long they were too elderly to do anything with it before the house fell apart. They always had the mind set that the longer they held onto the stuff the more valuable it would become. Guess they didn't think about the roof leaking all over the furniture. Not to mention, the house was probably hellish hot in the summer and freezing cold in the winter and the humidity in the summer. I would think most antique furniture should be stored in some kind of controlled temperatures to prevent warping, mold, mildew and water damage!

[ysette9]

That is a shame. My aunt and uncle have had a passion for antiques for the last 20 or more years. They have some really nice stuff. Despite growing up around that my sister and I fall perfectly into the millennial stereotype of not wanting stuff. They recognize that and wonderfully are in talks with a museum to take their collection when they eventually do die. Things aren’t hammered out yet but then they should have plenty of good years ahead of them (knock on wood). Unlike the situation above, they aren’t hoarders or anything, they just live in a huge house with things in it.

[Roadrunner53]

That is a shame. My aunt and uncle have had a passion for antiques for the last 20 or more years. They have some really nice stuff. Despite growing up around that my sister and I fall perfectly into the millennial stereotype of not wanting stuff. They recognize that and wonderfully are in talks with a museum to take their collection when they eventually do die. Things aren’t hammered out yet but then they should have plenty of good years ahead of them (knock on wood). Unlike the situation above, they aren’t hoarders or anything, they just live in a huge house with things in it.

Good plan on the furniture!

[Just Joe]

I know of two guys from different families and don't know each other. Each has same situation. Last surviving family member. Neither ever married. Both inherited everything in the entire family. Both an old family house full of everyone's stuff. And there it sits. These two guys are the lifetime caretakers for it all. Won't/can't part with it. They would both clear some money if they sold out but none of it is museum grade stuff, just regular stuff from several country families. Pots and pans, old appliances, furniture, old clothes.

Both are well off they could afford to travel a little, live in a comfortable modern home, and participate in their towns (and they do stay involved in their churches).

Makes me a sad to think about people trapped by stuff.

[ysette9]

And if they are the last of their lines, who cleans up the mess when they die?

[Roadrunner53]

I know of two guys from different families and don't know each other. Each has same situation. Last surviving family member. Neither ever married. Both inherited everything in the entire family. Both an old family house full of everyone's stuff. And there it sits. These two guys are the lifetime caretakers for it all. Won't/can't part with it. They would both clear some money if they sold out but none of it is museum grade stuff, just regular stuff from several country families. Pots and pans, old appliances, furniture, old clothes.

Both are well off they could afford to travel a little, live in a comfortable modern home, and participate in their towns (and they do stay involved in their churches).

Makes me a sad to think about people trapped by stuff.

Maybe the situation is so overwhelming they don't know where to begin. Seems if there is so much junk to go thru it would take a lifetime. These guys need to hire some kind of a clean out company or just hire two guys and get a dumpster and have them toss the obvious trash and maybe put some of the junk in a pile to determine if it is worth donating or selling. Someone needs to talk to these two guys and get them motivated to get the junk out of the house. Could be a fire hazard too.

[Sibley]

That is a shame. My aunt and uncle have had a passion for antiques for the last 20 or more years. They have some really nice stuff. Despite growing up around that my sister and I fall perfectly into the millennial stereotype of not wanting stuff. They recognize that and wonderfully are in talks with a museum to take their collection when they eventually do die. Things aren’t hammered out yet but then they should have plenty of good years ahead of them (knock on wood). Unlike the situation above, they aren’t hoarders or anything, they just live in a huge house with things in it.

That only works when the furniture is museum worthy. What my parents have is decidedly not.

[Sibley]

And if they are the last of their lines, who cleans up the mess when they die?

The executor, whomever that is. Either they tapped someone, or it'll end up going through probate court and they'll assign someone. Expenses generally paid out of the estate, then there are laws about what to do with assets if someone dies intestate.

[AlanStache]

Or if a good percent of the stuff is worth something then an estate sale can happen; someone would still need to deal with the junk stuff.

[Just Joe]

Both are very sentimental people.

[Threshkin]

...
Sometimes they think the collectables will be worth more someday. Or maybe they just like them. I knew someone with a massive beanie baby collection. Her walls were covered in them. Garage full of them. You couldn't walk through the house for all the beanie babies and garbage. When she died they were all thrown in the trash. Her son didn't want to sort the collection to see if any were worth anything. His friends said they would do if it they could get a cut of the value, but he said he wanted all the money from any sale. Since he wanted other people to do all the work and give him all the money he ended up with nothing.

My DW purchased a fairly large beanie baby collection at a yard sale.  She paid roughly 10 cents a piece for them.  They were the state beanies.  Each one had a quarter in the foot....

We still have  few left. Sans quarters they make good gifts for little kids.

[AlanStache]

beanie baby: When this came up the other day I checked ebay and some are actually worth more than 10$, I was shocked.  No clue what percent of them are still worth something. 

[Jouer]

...
Sometimes they think the collectables will be worth more someday. Or maybe they just like them. I knew someone with a massive beanie baby collection. Her walls were covered in them. Garage full of them. You couldn't walk through the house for all the beanie babies and garbage. When she died they were all thrown in the trash. Her son didn't want to sort the collection to see if any were worth anything. His friends said they would do if it they could get a cut of the value, but he said he wanted all the money from any sale. Since he wanted other people to do all the work and give him all the money he ended up with nothing.

My DW purchased a fairly large beanie baby collection at a yard sale.  She paid roughly 10 cents a piece for them.  They were the state beanies.  Each one had a quarter in the foot....

We still have  few left. Sans quarters they make good gifts for little kids.

Am I reading this right? Someone sold you an item for 10 cents and the item included 25 cents with it?

[FIRE@50]

Arbitrage...

[Threshkin]

...
Sometimes they think the collectables will be worth more someday. Or maybe they just like them. I knew someone with a massive beanie baby collection. Her walls were covered in them. Garage full of them. You couldn't walk through the house for all the beanie babies and garbage. When she died they were all thrown in the trash. Her son didn't want to sort the collection to see if any were worth anything. His friends said they would do if it they could get a cut of the value, but he said he wanted all the money from any sale. Since he wanted other people to do all the work and give him all the money he ended up with nothing.

My DW purchased a fairly large beanie baby collection at a yard sale.  She paid roughly 10 cents a piece for them.  They were the state beanies.  Each one had a quarter in the foot....

We still have  few left. Sans quarters they make good gifts for little kids.

Am I reading this right? Someone sold you an item for 10 cents and the item included 25 cents with it?

Yup.  :)  The quarters were in full view.  AIR, she got about 50 of them.  TBH they may have been worth more intact but we didn't bother with the hassle of trying to find a buyer.  We just pocketed the quarters and gave away the BBs.  They are great gifts for young kids. 

[Just Joe]

I related to a relative that I was doing ebike maintenance this weekend. I don't ride daily but several times a week when the weather is fair.

Relative kept stubbornly trying to relate it to motorcycle ownership as if this ebike was a failed motorcycle. Can't go as far or as fast. I ought to get rid of the ebike and get a motorcycle. WTH?

This isn't the first time. We had this same conversation a couple of years ago too.

Maybe I'm supposed to buy a motorcycle and do weekend rides with the relative. I like motorcycles and owned them in the past. I just like my bicycle better. <sigh>

Far cheaper and nearly silent. I see more wildlife this way and see all sorts of things at 15 mph that I'd never notice at 45 mph.

[Raymond Reddington]

But, but, wait, how???

The math does not compute.

[Lanthiriel]

I need somewhere to vent and my husband and sisters are sick of hearing about it...

My mom is 54. She divorced my dad (a 30+ year federal employee) almost 10 years ago. While they were married, she was largely a SAHM but for maybe the last 10 years of their marriage, she worked a part-time job at an elementary school. After the divorce, she bought a house she couldn't afford that was 40 minutes from her job. Over the years, she lost child support for each of my sisters as they left for college, and alimony dropped off around when the last one left. She tried foster parenting to supplement her income, but it was "too hard." The last year she lived in the HCOL west coast suburb I grew up in, she was making $18/hr working 7 hour days during the 180-day school year. I recently found out that during that year my grandparents paid $10k to fix her roof, bought her a vacuum cleaner, and paid for her heat that winter because she "couldn't afford it" despite her telling me about all the times she went out with her friends to the casino.

She decided to move to rural North Carolina to be near my sister. She figured that because Indeed has dozens of low skill positions posted, she'd just walk right into a job. She sols her house and spent $40k on a truck and trailer because she wanted to camp across the US. This took three weeks and now she drives a large AWD truck everywhere and the trailer hasn't moved except between storage facilities since she arrived.

She got a shitty part-time job and put all of her money except $25k into buying a small house with about a $40k mortgage. The house needs a new roof that she still has not paid for and my sister is pretty sure that that $25k emergency fund is almost gone. She finally got a shitty full-time job that she hates after she realized that she can't work in the NC school system unless she has an AA (which you think she'd have looked into before moving). She is looking into finishing her AA FINALLY but is contemplating doing a certificate program even though she has 20 years of experience working in elementary schools and that's what she loves doing. I finally lost it on her and told her that she's been trying to take the easy way out for 10 years and she finally just needs to buck up and do what needs to be done even if it's "hard" and "takes longer." She is just about to head back to the west coast for two weeks of unpaid vacation because "she deserves it."

She is constantly talking about the things she buys--purses, furniture, lawn ornaments, things for my sister's in laws, Christmas presents. She makes $11/hr and has expensive benefits. She drove 80 miles/day round-trip in her big truck. As far as I know she has maybe $100k in retirement. She also I think has a small pension from her old school district job that will show up at some point. I don't know whether she's eligible for Social Security or not. I know my dad doesn't pay into it because of his federal job, but I'm not sure if her school job was also exempt. I know she's eligible for some of my dad's pension when he retires. She refuses to look into all of this for reasons that are beyond me, so she has NO IDEA what her retirement income will look like or when she might start receiving it. Every time I think I get a little bit of accurate information, she says something else that makes me think she's lying to me.

Her current level of spending is unsustainable and I don't know what I'm going to do when the first request for money comes in. My husband is vehemently against giving her money and I understand why. My dad tried to pay for her to get a teaching degree. Her dad did too. But she has always had a million reasons why she can't implement a long-term plan to make her life better. It's just been a series of band-aids that are clearly on the path to resulting in her being completely broke. I don't see why we should be responsible for maintaining her lifestyle when she won't put in the effort. Plus she's YOUNG. She could live another 40 years, and it's not fair to me that I will have to work more years because she didn't want to work them. This summer is literally the first summer she's worked IN HER ENTIRE LIFE.

I am working on a clear set of rules that she has to follow before we'll give her money. It will include complete transparency in her finances and total accountability to us for what she's spending. Her pride will never let her be able to do it, so my hope is that by having firm boundaries, we can always place the blame squarely on her for being unwilling to meet our rules. And even then the only help we would probably be willing to give is to buy her house. That way we would be responsible for the mortgage, property taxes, and insurance, as well as any necessary repairs, so that she'll always have a roof over her head, but we'll also have equity to show for it in the end.

OK, that was a novel... Rant over. For now.

[Raymond Reddington]

Ugh, lawn ornaments are quite possibly the literal worst. Why anyone spends money on these odious, ugly, no resale value pieces of garbage is beyond me. You are better off lighting the money on fire in the winter...at least it provides a little heat.