Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 1388392 times)

TexasStash

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4600 on: June 17, 2018, 08:06:20 AM »
So much foam. Interesting foam, to be sure.

Siebrie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4601 on: June 18, 2018, 04:06:29 AM »
The Dutch didn't build walls to defend their cities, they built dykes (with walls on top) :) and they used water (canals, moats, swamps) to deter their enemies. See the city of Bourtange as a prime example of this.

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4602 on: June 18, 2018, 12:07:47 PM »
The Dutch didn't build walls to defend their cities, they built dykes (with walls on top) :) and they used water (canals, moats, swamps) to deter their enemies. See the city of Bourtange as a prime example of this.

I was always taught in school that my city used to look like this around 1450: http://www.eindhoven-in-beeld.nl/images/eb-eindhoven/31880.jpg

I'm not an expert in medieval history, but that's what I mean by walls. I think at some point the city also had the classic star fort shape like Bourtange, but there was only a small ditch surrounding the city, not a large moat like Bourtange and similar places. I think Maastricht, Nijmegen, Grave and 's-Hertogenbosch all had actual walls, probably combined with dykes, a star fort and lots of water. The old citadel in 's-Hertogenbosch is now an archive, it's a really inspiring place to do research in.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4603 on: June 18, 2018, 01:42:57 PM »
Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?

2Cent

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4604 on: June 19, 2018, 09:43:45 AM »
Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?
It was bombed in WW2. First by the British, then by the Germans during operation Market Garden.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4605 on: June 19, 2018, 01:36:57 PM »
Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?
It was bombed in WW2. First by the British, then by the Germans during operation Market Garden.

Ahhh that explains it.  What a shame. 

Threshkin

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4606 on: June 19, 2018, 07:21:48 PM »
Brugge Belgium.  Very cool looking place, well worth a few minutes exploring on google maps/street view.  Thanks.

For more views of Brugge/Bruges, see the movie In Bruges (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780536/). (Fair warning: it's not nearly as idyllic a movie as its setting would suggest. But it is very good.)
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We watched this movie on Father's Day based on this thread.
The movie was good, better than the second feature, The Lost City of Z.
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Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4607 on: June 21, 2018, 02:08:17 PM »
Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?
It was bombed in WW2. First by the British, then by the Germans during operation Market Garden.

Ahhh that explains it.  What a shame.

It was all gone long before that. The city was destroyed several times (by fire and war) in the middle ages and early modern age, and never completely rebuilt. In the 1880s a law was passed that allowed all cities to demolish their outdated defensive structures and many cities did. We like clean and fresh and new and modern in this country, not old stuff. My grandparents remember the ditches that were the last remnant of the old moat (20s/30s).  The citiy was completely destroyed in WWII and we used that occasion to start over with a clean slate: even the street plan was changed.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4608 on: June 21, 2018, 03:20:59 PM »
Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?
It was bombed in WW2. First by the British, then by the Germans during operation Market Garden.

Ahhh that explains it.  What a shame.

It was all gone long before that. The city was destroyed several times (by fire and war) in the middle ages and early modern age, and never completely rebuilt. In the 1880s a law was passed that allowed all cities to demolish their outdated defensive structures and many cities did. We like clean and fresh and new and modern in this country, not old stuff. My grandparents remember the ditches that were the last remnant of the old moat (20s/30s).  The citiy was completely destroyed in WWII and we used that occasion to start over with a clean slate: even the street plan was changed.

That's so sad.  But I guess that explains why so many Dutch people love Italy.  Around here, they like to preserve old stuff and traditions. 

jmecklenborg

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4609 on: July 02, 2018, 02:17:58 PM »
There has been an unfortunate return to wood apartment construction all over the United States, plus the quality of wood has gone down dramatically since WWII since the old growth forests are gone and everything's built out of fast-growing pine.  I own a brick home from 1914 that has old-growth pine joists and flooring, and the quality is much higher than today's pine, although very low-quality compared to the old-growth wood in the better homes and apartments from the 1800s and early 1900s. 

It's little known that the eastern United States sold off much of its old hardwood to the Caribbean in the 1700s and 1800s, because the islands were settled much earlier and were quickly denuded of whatever hardwood existed there.  Much was also sold to England and Ireland after they chopped down their last good trees.  And sadly...much of this was simply burnt for fuel and does not survive in structures that still stand. 


   

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4610 on: July 02, 2018, 06:15:19 PM »
There has been an unfortunate return to wood apartment construction all over the United States, plus the quality of wood has gone down dramatically since WWII since the old growth forests are gone and everything's built out of fast-growing pine.  I own a brick home from 1914 that has old-growth pine joists and flooring, and the quality is much higher than today's pine, although very low-quality compared to the old-growth wood in the better homes and apartments from the 1800s and early 1900s. 

It's little known that the eastern United States sold off much of its old hardwood to the Caribbean in the 1700s and 1800s, because the islands were settled much earlier and were quickly denuded of whatever hardwood existed there.  Much was also sold to England and Ireland after they chopped down their last good trees.  And sadly...much of this was simply burnt for fuel and does not survive in structures that still stand. 


A lot of eastern Canada's old growth forests were pine.  It made great masts and spars.   The forests we think are old growth forests are relatively young.
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BlueHouse

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4611 on: July 03, 2018, 01:30:04 PM »
My niece is living with me for the summer.  A few years ago, I hosted her brother.  Completely different issues, but same root cause.  Niece is 20, in college, and lives 100% off her parents (except for the part I pay for).  She's staying with me because I got her a job (her first ever), as an unpaid intern.  She takes uber to work every day.  She buys lunch out.  She eats most dinners out.  She gets mani/pedis on a regular basis.  She joins expensive gyms.  She charges everything to credit cards, which her parents pay (they are comfortable, but they still need to work to afford shit).  She really has no concept of how much it costs to just live on your own.  Her school loans are expected to be ~$200K.   

She will probably float through life and find someone else to pay her loans.  I don't even really resent it that much.  I just hope that she really can float, because I'm sure as hell not paying those school loans down while she gets massages and pedicures that I won't even treat myself to.
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jmecklenborg

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4612 on: July 03, 2018, 04:00:50 PM »
My niece is living with me for the summer.  A few years ago, I hosted her brother.  Completely different issues, but same root cause.  Niece is 20, in college, and lives 100% off her parents (except for the part I pay for).  She's staying with me because I got her a job (her first ever), as an unpaid intern.  She takes uber to work every day.  She buys lunch out.  She eats most dinners out.  She gets mani/pedis on a regular basis.  She joins expensive gyms.  She charges everything to credit cards, which her parents pay (they are comfortable, but they still need to work to afford shit).  She really has no concept of how much it costs to just live on your own.  Her school loans are expected to be ~$200K.   

She will probably float through life and find someone else to pay her loans.  I don't even really resent it that much.  I just hope that she really can float, because I'm sure as hell not paying those school loans down while she gets massages and pedicures that I won't even treat myself to.

Yeah imagine a first date with a woman like this when you've been stuck working crap part-time jobs to accelerate FI. 

About two years ago I met a girl who was about 28 at a party.  We walked out together but then things deteriorated when I mentioned that I usually work at a restaurant on the weekends.  Her complexion changed and she started treating me like a little kid and bragging about how she makes "$100/hr in my pajamas" before parting ways a few minutes later. 

I am friends with her friends and word will eventually reach her if it didn't already that I made $100k in 2017 in real estate speculation enabled by that restaurant job. 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 04:05:25 PM by jmecklenborg »

Linda_Norway

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4613 on: July 04, 2018, 01:53:12 AM »
My niece is living with me for the summer.  A few years ago, I hosted her brother.  Completely different issues, but same root cause.  Niece is 20, in college, and lives 100% off her parents (except for the part I pay for).  She's staying with me because I got her a job (her first ever), as an unpaid intern.  She takes uber to work every day.  She buys lunch out.  She eats most dinners out.  She gets mani/pedis on a regular basis.  She joins expensive gyms.  She charges everything to credit cards, which her parents pay (they are comfortable, but they still need to work to afford shit).  She really has no concept of how much it costs to just live on your own.  Her school loans are expected to be ~$200K.   

She will probably float through life and find someone else to pay her loans.  I don't even really resent it that much.  I just hope that she really can float, because I'm sure as hell not paying those school loans down while she gets massages and pedicures that I won't even treat myself to.

Then you have the whole summer to tell her some of your story. Maybe she'll remember it in a few years time when her credit card bills pile up...

9-Volt

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4614 on: July 04, 2018, 10:32:53 AM »
My sister in law just got her forth gym membership. Two regular ones, a Hit and yoga. She also has a more than adequate gym in her garage. She has been paying for the two and the Hit for years and only goes to yoga.

Scotts

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4615 on: July 04, 2018, 12:12:48 PM »
Yeah imagine a first date with a woman like this when you've been stuck working crap part-time jobs to accelerate FI. 

About two years ago I met a girl who was about 28 at a party.  We walked out together but then things deteriorated when I mentioned that I usually work at a restaurant on the weekends.  Her complexion changed and she started treating me like a little kid and bragging about how she makes "$100/hr in my pajamas" before parting ways a few minutes later. 

I am friends with her friends and word will eventually reach her if it didn't already that I made $100k in 2017 in real estate speculation enabled by that restaurant job.

I can imagine that when the news reached her you may hear from her then.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4616 on: July 04, 2018, 05:14:56 PM »
Yeah imagine a first date with a woman like this when you've been stuck working crap part-time jobs to accelerate FI. 

About two years ago I met a girl who was about 28 at a party.  We walked out together but then things deteriorated when I mentioned that I usually work at a restaurant on the weekends.  Her complexion changed and she started treating me like a little kid and bragging about how she makes "$100/hr in my pajamas" before parting ways a few minutes later. 

I am friends with her friends and word will eventually reach her if it didn't already that I made $100k in 2017 in real estate speculation enabled by that restaurant job.

I suspect I might have made a statement along the lines of "Oh, I didn't realize you were in a line of work where you perform services for your clients in your bedroom attire.   $100 per hour is pretty cheap for that work, isn't it?"


Be glad you dodged that bullet.   Definitely not a keeper.

jmecklenborg

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4617 on: July 04, 2018, 09:39:00 PM »
I suspect I might have made a statement along the lines of "Oh, I didn't realize you were in a line of work where you perform services for your clients in your bedroom attire.   $100 per hour is pretty cheap for that work, isn't it?"


I kept it out of the original post but she claimed that she makes that much doing freelance grant writing.  I believe she started doing grant writing while working for a non-profit and then was able to attract freelance work. 

I rarely say this out loud in real life but I've made about $200,000 working part-time at a restaurant on top of my full-time job since graduating from college.  I think most of my relatives are completely baffled by my continued weekend work (and they don't like my little house) but will disapprove if I retire at age 45. 

I should add that I lucked out completely with a low-tech lot flipping scheme...the area improved much faster than I anticipated.  My relatives and coworkers made fun of me for paying close attention to property in "bad" neighborhoods but I'm having the last laugh.  Many people in my area were so blinded by old-fashioned pro-suburb anti-city bias but now they're red in the face because some people made out like bandits when the historic neighborhoods near public housing went from worst to first. 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 09:54:37 PM by jmecklenborg »

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4618 on: July 09, 2018, 03:37:21 PM »
I've been puzzled for a long time about my dad. He has been working as a [let's say podiatrist for anonymity] for 50 years (still at it @ 80+), lives frugally in a paid off house, yet never seems to have any money saved up. Just figured it out, whenever he has more than his monthly bills, he gives the money to Jesus. So much for any inheritance, but it's his money to do with whatever he wants. I just hope he isn't looking to me to fund his long term care.

Raymond Reddington

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4619 on: July 09, 2018, 04:24:18 PM »
I have an uncle who inherited a house from my grandmother who was a hoarder and refuses to throw anything out. He's basically been her caretaker for the last 20 years and is too cheap to do anything with his life. Divorced, no kids, no prospects, no hobbies, and just now decided that talking to his ex every once in a while (note: they were together over 25 years ago, and she has since remarried and lives entirely in another part of the country) would be his attempt to be social.

The house is a mess still and would probably be condemned by the local FD, and he has done nothing with whatever "wealth" she had. It's probably all sitting in various checking or savings accounts. He has 3 cars and drives everywhere, even though he has nothing to do except go to doctors and get groceries.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 06:55:00 PM by Raymond Reddington »
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SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4620 on: July 09, 2018, 04:33:57 PM »
I suspect I might have made a statement along the lines of "Oh, I didn't realize you were in a line of work where you perform services for your clients in your bedroom attire.   $100 per hour is pretty cheap for that work, isn't it?"


I kept it out of the original post but she claimed that she makes that much doing freelance grant writing.  I believe she started doing grant writing while working for a non-profit and then was able to attract freelance work. 

I rarely say this out loud in real life but I've made about $200,000 working part-time at a restaurant on top of my full-time job since graduating from college.  I think most of my relatives are completely baffled by my continued weekend work (and they don't like my little house) but will disapprove if I retire at age 45. 

I should add that I lucked out completely with a low-tech lot flipping scheme...the area improved much faster than I anticipated.  My relatives and coworkers made fun of me for paying close attention to property in "bad" neighborhoods but I'm having the last laugh.  Many people in my area were so blinded by old-fashioned pro-suburb anti-city bias but now they're red in the face because some people made out like bandits when the historic neighborhoods near public housing went from worst to first.

Very cool!    Kudos to you!

And don't give a damn about your relatives pissing on your FIRE party with their disapproval.   If you get tired of it, remind them that if you had followed their advice about financial plans before, you would still have to work for a living...

jmecklenborg

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4621 on: July 09, 2018, 05:49:34 PM »
And don't give a damn about your relatives pissing on your FIRE party with their disapproval.   If you get tired of it, remind them that if you had followed their advice about financial plans before, you would still have to work for a living...

Yeah we have a family culture that looks dimly on not working.  Even if you have the money to retire, you are expected to still work full-time until 62 or so.

craiglepaige

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4622 on: July 09, 2018, 06:15:55 PM »
And don't give a damn about your relatives pissing on your FIRE party with their disapproval.   If you get tired of it, remind them that if you had followed their advice about financial plans before, you would still have to work for a living...

Yeah we have a family culture that looks dimly on not working.  Even if you have the money to retire, you are expected to still work full-time until 62 or so.
[/quote

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Blackeagle

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4623 on: July 09, 2018, 06:45:54 PM »
There has been an unfortunate return to wood apartment construction all over the United States, plus the quality of wood has gone down dramatically since WWII since the old growth forests are gone and everything's built out of fast-growing pine.  I own a brick home from 1914 that has old-growth pine joists and flooring, and the quality is much higher than today's pine, although very low-quality compared to the old-growth wood in the better homes and apartments from the 1800s and early 1900s. 

When my grandfather built his house back in 1950, he built it with oak framing, using lumber from some timber my grandmother's family owned.

TartanTallulah

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4624 on: July 11, 2018, 02:34:27 PM »
My husband has a large extended family and every summer as many of them as possible get together for an informal social event. It's this coming weekend. There's a Facebook group for those attending.

Everyone has been posting things like when they're arriving, where they're staying, what food/drink they're bringing, and how they can't wait to see everyone again.

Except for one cousin. This woman is married for the second time, to a delightful man who has a fat wallet. What she posted was, "We're coming down via (place) and (husband) will be cycling because he can't miss his training for (expensive corporate obstacle race featuring mud). We're doing this gruelling event to raise money for (charity). It's not just us; (four other members of her husband's family) are taking part too. You can make donations via (online giving site) or if you prefer you can give us your donation in person at the weekend.

This event costs £85 a ticket and will result in the destruction of a set of running kit and a pair of shoes per participant. If it was really All About Charity, they could have donated their entry fees and what they're saving by not having to replace ruined kit instead of threatening to spoil the party by rattling a can under people's noses.

We'll be giving them a wide berth.



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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4625 on: July 11, 2018, 04:10:32 PM »
My husband has a large extended family and every summer as many of them as possible get together for an informal social event. It's this coming weekend. There's a Facebook group for those attending.

Everyone has been posting things like when they're arriving, where they're staying, what food/drink they're bringing, and how they can't wait to see everyone again.

Except for one cousin. This woman is married for the second time, to a delightful man who has a fat wallet. What she posted was, "We're coming down via (place) and (husband) will be cycling because he can't miss his training for (expensive corporate obstacle race featuring mud). We're doing this gruelling event to raise money for (charity). It's not just us; (four other members of her husband's family) are taking part too. You can make donations via (online giving site) or if you prefer you can give us your donation in person at the weekend.

This event costs £85 a ticket and will result in the destruction of a set of running kit and a pair of shoes per participant. If it was really All About Charity, they could have donated their entry fees and what they're saving by not having to replace ruined kit instead of threatening to spoil the party by rattling a can under people's noses.

We'll be giving them a wide berth.
at least she married a MAMIL. but crass behavior. Better have a 'No Soliciting' sign up at the party. That goes for anyone that tries peddling MLM crap.
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AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4626 on: July 11, 2018, 06:31:32 PM »
...
at least she married a MAMIL. but crass behavior. Better have a 'No Soliciting' sign up at the party. That goes for anyone that tries peddling MLM crap.
[/quote]

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BeautifulDay

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4627 on: July 11, 2018, 08:09:02 PM »
I've been puzzled for a long time about my dad. He has been working as a [let's say podiatrist for anonymity] for 50 years (still at it @ 80+), lives frugally in a paid off house, yet never seems to have any money saved up. Just figured it out, whenever he has more than his monthly bills, he gives the money to Jesus. So much for any inheritance, but it's his money to do with whatever he wants. I just hope he isn't looking to me to fund his long term care.
This is my parents except in addition to giving to Jesus they also give to freeloading siblings. Dad will work until he dies.  But if that's what he wants, ok.  I'll probably help pay mom's long term care.  She never had much say in any financial matters, so not exactly her fault. Who knows what she might have chosen given actual options.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4628 on: July 11, 2018, 08:27:02 PM »
We walked out together but then things deteriorated when I mentioned that I usually work at a restaurant on the weekends.

I have a friend who was horrified that a father at their son's school drives Uber on the weekend. She thought that people of their status should not have to have second jobs and isn't it a shame that the system and all the education debt are so unfair.

I bit my tongue, but I thought it was admirable that the guy was working two jobs to earn whatever money they needed or wanted: paying down that pesky education debt for one thing!

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4629 on: July 11, 2018, 09:33:47 PM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4630 on: July 11, 2018, 10:39:44 PM »
Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?
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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4631 on: July 11, 2018, 11:19:56 PM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

There is a charity bike ride I enjoy doing. It’s not exactly mustachian, and besides the entry fee it requires a fairly hefty “donation”. I just pay the donation because I can’t bring myself to ask people to donate so that I can ride, even if it is 100 miles.

Then again, I never thought about asking people to sponsor me to eat my dinner. Maybe I should try that...
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Linda_Norway

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4632 on: July 12, 2018, 01:17:46 AM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

I don't like it too. I remember having done this once or twice as a child in primary school, because the whole school did so. I asked the neighbours to sign up. But it is an embarrassing thing to do. And you morally bring people in a difficult position to recline.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4633 on: July 12, 2018, 05:24:40 AM »
...
at least she married a MAMIL. but crass behavior. Better have a 'No Soliciting' sign up at the party. That goes for anyone that tries peddling MLM crap.

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[/quote]
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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4634 on: July 12, 2018, 06:02:38 AM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

There is a charity bike ride I enjoy doing. It’s not exactly mustachian, and besides the entry fee it requires a fairly hefty “donation”. I just pay the donation because I can’t bring myself to ask people to donate so that I can ride, even if it is 100 miles.

Then again, I never thought about asking people to sponsor me to eat my dinner. Maybe I should try that...

I feel the same way about those bike rides. I did a few of them years ago. Not only did I dislike asking people for money, I found that almost everyone I rode with was asking the same group of people for money, which got old in a hurry.

These days, I only do rides where the entry fee is the donation. I did one a few weeks ago that was a last-minute thing, and they were giving out T-shirts after the ride. They didn't have my size, and they were very apologetic about it, offering to special order me the size I needed, etc, because "you paid for the shirt". I said, "No, I donated to your charity - I don't care about the shirt."

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4635 on: July 12, 2018, 07:39:23 AM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

There is a charity bike ride I enjoy doing. It’s not exactly mustachian, and besides the entry fee it requires a fairly hefty “donation”. I just pay the donation because I can’t bring myself to ask people to donate so that I can ride, even if it is 100 miles.

Then again, I never thought about asking people to sponsor me to eat my dinner. Maybe I should try that...

I feel the same way about those bike rides. I did a few of them years ago. Not only did I dislike asking people for money, I found that almost everyone I rode with was asking the same group of people for money, which got old in a hurry.

These days, I only do rides where the entry fee is the donation. I did one a few weeks ago that was a last-minute thing, and they were giving out T-shirts after the ride. They didn't have my size, and they were very apologetic about it, offering to special order me the size I needed, etc, because "you paid for the shirt". I said, "No, I donated to your charity - I don't care about the shirt."

Free t-shirts from charities are the worst. If I give you $20 to help sick people, why on earth would I want you to turn around and spend a portion of that on a shirt for me. If I wanted a shirt, I would have bought one and given you less money.

I get that the little gifts encourage some people to give, presumably for a net increase in funds, and that the free shirts may act as a sort of advertising, but still. I don't like it.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4636 on: July 12, 2018, 12:24:19 PM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

I hated it when I was a kid. My school had us do one of those with laps around the city park walking path. They kept saying that we're helping the charity by walking. I thought it was ridiculous to present it like that. Donate money to charity, or go for a walk. Don't act like walking is curing cancer. It also taught me that my family, neighbors, and mom's friends are super tight. Most of them refused, but the ones that agrees all put 1 cent with one person putting a whopping 2 cents per lap. My mom tried to get family to give some more but they said they didn't want to be forced to pay some high amount since I was a high energy kid. So in my time limit of 1 hour I made 5 laps around our city park walking path. One person looked confused I only raised 5 cents off him and gave me a dollar. So if he was willing to give a dollar, why not bid a little more? Did he really think a little kid would run over a hundred laps in an hour? The park was huge.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4637 on: July 12, 2018, 01:58:51 PM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

Ah ha, this is why I was somewhat misplaced at the VP of fundraising for the school PTA.

What I've learned is, depending on the school, this is how people like to donate money:
1.  The jog-a-thon.  It's cute, and I'm glad people do it.
2.  The auction.  Spend hours and hours getting things donated, and then people will bid for them and buy them.   Do I need discounted laser surgery?  Or dinner for 2?
3.  "Come to dinner at X pizza place and the school gets part of the proceeds."  How about instead of spending $50 so that the school gets $7.50, I just give you ten bucks and eat at home?  (This is tricky though, as it also supports a local business that supports the school.)
4. "Party books" - where a couple or a few folks will throw a "party" with a fee to attend.  The people throwing the party pay for it.  The fees for attending go to the school.

I can't be the only one who would rather just write a check?

Aside from just donating money, I do, on occasion, donate to people doing a marathon or bike ride or some such thing for charity.  Because I think it's good for them to go out and run and stuff.  Or whatever.  At least they have to "work" for it.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4638 on: July 12, 2018, 02:47:43 PM »
While it's not in the context of schools typically (I don't have kids), I tend to agree.

-The entire purpose of participating in a charitable endeavor is to raise money for the cause. I do not like charitable causes that require people to solicit money from friends or family to participate - you "running" is not raising money for the cause therefore, you are relying on sponsors to do it, and for me that's a no. Just like the whole ALS ice bucket challenge - make a viral sensation on the internet where people actively avoid giving money to charity by instead dumping ice water on themselves.
-Get togethers that waste donated money by the costs, generally detract from the overall mission in my opinion (exception below). T-shirts can be used to successfully market the cause, provided they are produced at low cost, and they advance the cause in a way that is supportive of the cause. Meaning, I cringe when I see T shirts promoting a "1 mile walk for charity" - might as well put "crossing the street for charity" as there's no difficulty involved, and IMO it undermines the charitable cause in many ways, not the least of which is the laughability factor.
-Get togethers can, however, be productive in the context of donors who have reached a certain level participating in an expensive dinner at the location of the charity. These get togethers attract people of considerable means, all of whom are invested in the organization to varying positive degrees, and the opportunity exists to showcase the most recent goings on, how the money is being put to use, and to solicit further donations tastefully in the context of the hospitality extended to donors. However, at this level of giving, it goes way beyond "pay $20 for the school and get a pizza party"

Just my thoughts.
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minniesmom

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4639 on: July 12, 2018, 06:44:27 PM »
Just like the whole ALS ice bucket challenge - make a viral sensation on the internet where people actively avoid giving money to charity by instead dumping ice water on themselves.

I mostly agree with you except for this part. Many regular folks that participated in the ALS ice bucket challenge also donated $100 or more in addition to posting a silly video. Look it up. Donations skyrocketed compared to the previous year. It was probably one of the greatest charitable campaigns of our lifetime, and the irony is, it was not conceived or even managed by professional fundraisers. Just sort of took on a life of its own, and it would not have been effective without the viral video component.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4640 on: July 12, 2018, 07:06:00 PM »
Ha, I'm the relative who just doesn't get it! I *have* shown up at a family event with my spouse with both of us wearing the T-shirt for the bike ride we were doing that summer, and fundraising for a charity. I guess now that I've read this, I shouldn't be surprised it didn't amount to many (any?) donations.

We did complete our 100km bike ride (the one and only time we went that distance) and met the minimal fundraising goal, mostly with donations from close family members (not the extended family members at the family gathering).

Now, when I do this type of thing, I usually just post a link to the fundraising on my FB page and don't approach that many people directly. I think my days of minimal donation amounts are over. I will go the annual Terry Fox Run (walking or biking) for as long as I am able to -- that guy is an inspiration and commemorating him every year is something that is near and dear to my heart, no matter how much or how little I fund raise.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4641 on: July 12, 2018, 10:59:53 PM »
The point behind the T-shirts is that it's one of the cheapest ways in the world to advertise and build brand recognition. Instead of paying $$$ for a billboard, pay a few dollars per person for the T-shirt. Then, when they wear it to the gym or while pulling weeds in the front yard and talk to their neighbors, everyone who sees the T-shirt gets a tiny bit of ad exposure. It takes hundreds or even thousands of brand exposures before people recognize the charity or are seriously tempted to donate. It's the same with the sponsorship model: the goal is to build a brand and to give people some kind of experience with the charity or connection to it. The big money doesn't come from the grandparents or family who pay a kid 1 cent per lap at the local thing-a-thon. It comes from the major sponsors or donors who make a donation directly to the charity that is triggered by the announcement of the event, or by a request or announcement by the right person.

I belong to a circle of friends who regularly do sponsorship based giving: "I'm raising money for ABC or XYZ". We tend to make sure our donations show up as "anonymous" on social media, and we don't co-opt family events to talk about fundraising, however each of us knows who the others are and what their pet charities are. People choose the charities that are meaningful to them and that are extremely well run. They're mostly medical research and medical assistance charities. Sometimes the fund raising has an athletic component, but when it does, people pay their own way or donate the value of what they expect to receive.
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shelivesthedream

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4642 on: July 13, 2018, 12:52:41 AM »
The question that I usually want to ask is "And how much are you donating? Oh, nothing? Well, I'll put in as much as you are. I'll run too! Yay for curing cancer!"

I get that obviously it must work for the charities otherwise they wouldn't do it - but I still don't get it.

Intrigued

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4643 on: July 13, 2018, 06:24:59 AM »
Isn't the point on charity events that people don't simply donate enough to support many of the worthwhile charities so doing a sponsored event is required.

That sponsored event not only raises more money than they otherwise would, including a large chunk of the participation fee being a donation/profit, but as mentioned above it also raises awareness for the charity both in terms of information they are trying to make public (e.g. symptoms of a disease) but also financially in future donations.

Yes the individual will want to take part (that is after all what the charity is aiming for to make these events attractive) but shouldn't be knocked for a worthwhile cause. Whether you donate or not is another matter, appreciate all have preferences and it is a social issue that puts people under pressure - just can't see it being something to criticise another person about.

(And I don't take part in these events as prefer to establish who I'm supporting and donate regularly to them)

Slow&Steady

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4644 on: July 13, 2018, 07:47:15 AM »
I recently received the below message thread from a family member.

"Did you know they now have a (S&S favorite band) station on satellite radio"

"That is cool, I don't have satellite radio"

"Really, with as much time as you spend in the car it would be a good investment."

"Radio is free"

However, same family member turned a side gig into his full-time income and I guess could be considered FIREd.  Except that he allows parents and in-law to pay part of his bills to do this and has 0 savings.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4645 on: July 13, 2018, 08:30:18 AM »
Isn't the point on charity events that people don't simply donate enough to support many of the worthwhile charities so doing a sponsored event is required.

That sponsored event not only raises more money than they otherwise would, including a large chunk of the participation fee being a donation/profit, but as mentioned above it also raises awareness for the charity both in terms of information they are trying to make public (e.g. symptoms of a disease) but also financially in future donations.

Yes the individual will want to take part (that is after all what the charity is aiming for to make these events attractive) but shouldn't be knocked for a worthwhile cause. Whether you donate or not is another matter, appreciate all have preferences and it is a social issue that puts people under pressure - just can't see it being something to criticise another person about.

(And I don't take part in these events as prefer to establish who I'm supporting and donate regularly to them)

Actually, I think the problem is more that we have too many charities, many of them poorly run. Evidence: websites that allow you to evaluate how much of your donation actually goes to the charitable purpose. Get rid of all those nonprofits that have disproportionate overheads and we'll shrink the list overall.

Dabnasty

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4646 on: July 13, 2018, 08:47:30 AM »
I recently received the below message thread from a family member.

"Did you know they now have a (S&S favorite band) station on satellite radio"

"That is cool, I don't have satellite radio"

"Really, with as much time as you spend in the car it would be a good investment."

"Radio is free"

However, same family member turned a side gig into his full-time income and I guess could be considered FIREd.  Except that he allows parents and in-law to pay part of his bills to do this and has 0 savings.
I don't think he could be considered FIREd in any way. He is definitely not financially independent if others pay part of his bills and he has no savings. He's not really retired either if he's working a sidegig.

More like "Financially dependent, part time self employed"?

FireHiker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4647 on: July 13, 2018, 10:14:42 AM »
Ah ha, this is why I was somewhat misplaced at the VP of fundraising for the school PTA.

What I've learned is, depending on the school, this is how people like to donate money:
1.  The jog-a-thon.  It's cute, and I'm glad people do it.
2.  The auction.  Spend hours and hours getting things donated, and then people will bid for them and buy them.   Do I need discounted laser surgery?  Or dinner for 2?
3.  "Come to dinner at X pizza place and the school gets part of the proceeds."  How about instead of spending $50 so that the school gets $7.50, I just give you ten bucks and eat at home?  (This is tricky though, as it also supports a local business that supports the school.)
4. "Party books" - where a couple or a few folks will throw a "party" with a fee to attend.  The people throwing the party pay for it.  The fees for attending go to the school.

I can't be the only one who would rather just write a check?


Thankfully my kids' schools have the option to just write a tax-deductive check to the school foundation/PTSA instead of participating in any of the fundraising. That's the option we choose. We will occasionally do the "dining for dollars" thing if it's a local place we like; eating out is one of our biggest mustachian challenges but we try to be smarter about it anyway. At least they don't do the awful selling wrapping paper thing anymore like my oldest son's elementary school 10 years ago. I hated that!

Slow&Steady

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4648 on: July 13, 2018, 11:09:24 AM »
I recently received the below message thread from a family member.

"Did you know they now have a (S&S favorite band) station on satellite radio"

"That is cool, I don't have satellite radio"

"Really, with as much time as you spend in the car it would be a good investment."

"Radio is free"

However, same family member turned a side gig into his full-time income and I guess could be considered FIREd.  Except that he allows parents and in-law to pay part of his bills to do this and has 0 savings.
I don't think he could be considered FIREd in any way. He is definitely not financially independent if others pay part of his bills and he has no savings. He's not really retired either if he's working a sidegig.

More like "Financially dependent, part time self employed"?

I agree, guess I should stop trying to spin it into a positive. 

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4649 on: July 13, 2018, 11:19:46 AM »
The question that I usually want to ask is "And how much are you donating? Oh, nothing? Well, I'll put in as much as you are. I'll run too! Yay for curing cancer!"

I get that obviously it must work for the charities otherwise they wouldn't do it - but I still don't get it.

I think it's because there are some differences between charities that aren't always evident. Let's call them "apple", "orange", "banana", "grape", and "almond" charities.

An apple charity uses the thing-a-thon for fund raising and outreach. People who participate pay their own admission fees and often make an additional donation. They are supporting something that frequently has nothing to do with the sports activity and frequently support the apple charity in other ways. Most of the labor comes from volunteers and groups of people that support the apple charity. In my hometown, for example, there's a major running event every spring that benefits the zoo and aquarium. The running event is part of a well planned fund raising and publicity program, and some years it's brought in over a million dollars. It's not the only way the zoo charity brings in money, because the outreach experience is just as big a part of it. But it gives the zoo access to attention and money from people who aren't primarily interested in the zoo, such as runners. Part of the run actually goes through the zoo in the behind-the-scenes area people don't ordinarily get to see. With an apple charity event, you pay to play but there's little emphasis on getting other people to pay.

An orange charity is more interested in promoting the thing-a-thon activity than it is in raising money for some purpose. People who do athletic events or thing-a-thons for orange charities pay fees to participate, but the charity putting on the event is devoted solely to the popularization of the sport. Most of the admission fees go to running the event and paying overhead expenses, because the event *is* the attraction. A small portion may be directed to a health or human services charity but that's more to take advantage of the other charity's name and social capital.

The banana charities are the ones that use sponsorship based thing-a-thons where people hit up their friends and family for per-unit contributions of $x per golf hole or $y per lap. These are either very small local charities where the participants or their families benefit from whatever is raised. Although they tend to be the kind of things many people in the community resent because they don't enjoy being asked for sponsorship or required to solicit money, banana charity thing-a-thons provide a crucial life lesson because they teach people, especially kids, that it's very difficult to get something for nothing, just by sticking their hand out. If they want new jerseys for their soccer team, or if they want that new Little League park, it's just like in the old Britney Spears song: "(they'd) better work, bitch". The labor in question is usually trivial, such as running around in circles or jumping rope, however they provide a better life lesson than, say, the GoFundMe approach where people just stick their hands out. Banana charities help people develop an anti-entitlement attitude. Yes, it's a mathematically inefficient way to raise money. I regard it as part of a character-building process in which the people who benefit from the charitable work have some ownership in the organization: it's part of participating.

The grape charities are highly devoted to fund raising, much like the apple charities, and for them it's all about raising cash beyond the initial participation fee. The responsible ones do encourage people to sponsor themselves before asking anyone else to chip in, because they care about credibility for themselves and for their participants. Not all grape charities are responsible that way, and when a self-absorbed weenie gets involved you get behavior much like what you're complaining about.

The almond charities don't have events of their own, but they sponsor competitors for different events such as, say, the Boston Marathon. The competitor is expected to raise money for the charity in amounts that greatly exceed whatever is spent on him or her. If they fail to do that, they are replaced by a volunteer who can and will. The athletes are expected to act like ambassadors for the charity in question and to actively promote the charity. It is something that generally only appeals to people with a strong emotional connection to the charity.

I go in mostly for apple and almond charities, with orange if and only if I enjoy the activity (I regard them much like a for-profit vendor of services). I did a grape event back in May that involved getting my head shaved bald; it's for an organization I respect that uses its income in an extremely effective and efficient way. For banana groups, I don't get involved in the thing-a-thons anymore or waste time footling around and trying to follow up to make sure everyone gets paid. But I have been known to make a donation if I support the mission.

What I think you're seeing is some obnoxious grape and banana behavior.
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