Relatives who just don't get it

[mm1970]

It's just like electric bikes: they are a terrible choice if you're healthy and fit and ride a regular bike frequently, but if you're driving everywhere and not getting any exercise, an electric bike is a massive improvement.

Yeah,  I am going to call BS on that one.    My guess is that you have not owned an electric bike or you live where it is flat.  Most cyclists I knew looked down on them at the time (circa 2002/2003 here).

Once upon a time, I was a cyclist part time (to work), and when I got an electric kit, my frequency and distance traveled tripled... versus taking DH's car or the bus.

+1

I don't have an electric bike, but my neighbor up the street does.

We live on a big hill.  She has 2 kids.  Doesn't drive.  The neighborhood isn't particularly walkable - not horrible, but it's a little over a mile over a really big hill to get to the nearest grocery store.

The electric bike made a HUGE improvement in her life.  Before that, she and her husband were basically looking to move to a more walk able neighborhood.  AND she's in her late 50s and very very fit.  Because she doesn't drive, she pretty much walked EVERYWHERE.   But getting the kids from school at the end of the day got much better with the bike.  Sometimes she makes the round trip 2-3 times a day, and it's a big hill.

[max9505672]

It's just like electric bikes: they are a terrible choice if you're healthy and fit and ride a regular bike frequently, but if you're driving everywhere and not getting any exercise, an electric bike is a massive improvement.

Electric bikes are great if you have long distances and/or mountainous terrain, independently of how fit you are.

For example, it would take me 1h15 hour to go to work by bike. While not impossible, I wouldn't bike 3h30 hours/day even if I consider myself fit, it's just too much time at the end of the day. I do it sometimes, but not everyday.

With my electric bike, it takes roughly 30 minutes. Still a good physical exercise and much more viable on a daily basis.

[londonstache]

@Imma How did your mother get the spending mentality of Americans? I thought Europe was much more financially conservative.

@jinga nation alas, I think we're rapidly closing the gap on Americans. You still see some financially conservative decisions, but at least here in the UK they are fairly rare. For example in the UK 10 years ago most people paid cash for a car, leased it or got a traditional loan - where you owned the asset outright at the end. Now most people get a PCP payment plan (82% of sales are now these), which typically looks like paying less now in most cases for no ownership in the future. I also find the state of preparation for retirement also entirely horrific.

[snapperdude]

@Imma How did your mother get the spending mentality of Americans? I thought Europe was much more financially conservative.
[...] There's only a couple of savvy ones, who are modest in their ways.

Just because they are financial professionals doesn't mean they know how to save and invest for themselves.

I really don't know where she got that spending mentality. It's a new thing. My mum grew up in a very working class environment, she worked her way up, she taught us to budget and save money. Growing up she was super frugal, sewing all of our clothes and baking our bread. My parents had a very bad divorce when I was in in my early 20s and she ended up with practically nothing in a small one bedroom flat and her youngest kid still living at home with her. She was living so extremely frugal back then I actually gave her my old coat because she refused to buy a new one even though the zipper was broken and she was waiting in the cold for the bus to work every day. She saved up a lot of money to buy a nice house in a new city to start a new life there about 5 years ago. After that, she's changed so much I sometimes wonder who she is. Her new friends generally come from money and at around 60, most have received their full inheritances and have a lot of money. My mum isn't wealthy, but she's taken good care of herself in the past. She's close to 60, I know if she quit working today she has enough to live on until her pension and social security kicks in at 66.

She's still not spending a huge amount of money on herself compared to some people in this thread - she spends a lot on food and wine and eating in fancy restaurants and expensive clothes but not more than she can afford - but she's really pressuring us to spend money and judging others by how much money they spend. Because of her job, we're used to talking openly about money and she knows I save up for retirement, which she considers to be unneccessary 'at my stage in life'. I'm really happy that she goes on holiday every year, but I wish she would just shut up about my spending.

@kaypinkHH  When my parents were around 30 we lived in nearly exactly the same type of house in the same type of neighbourhood. Maybe she doesn't want to remember?

Perhaps she is feeling pressure to keep up with her new friends when they discuss the lifestyles of their children. She wants you to spend your money so she can tell her friends about how "well" you are doing.

[Imma]

She could brag about how her daughter has a savings rate of over 50%! But I guess that's not as cool as a 5 bedroom home.

[UKMustache]

@jinga nation alas, I think we're rapidly closing the gap on Americans. You still see some financially conservative decisions, but at least here in the UK they are fairly rare. For example in the UK 10 years ago most people paid cash for a car, leased it or got a traditional loan - where you owned the asset outright at the end. Now most people get a PCP payment plan (82% of sales are now these), which typically looks like paying less now in most cases for no ownership in the future. I also find the state of preparation for retirement also entirely horrific.
[/quote]

Have you seen the latest update to 'autotrader', you can now search by how much you want to pay per month.

*facepalm*

[jinga nation]

@UKMustache I tend to think of the British and Europeans as two separate identities. I have come to the UK several times, have plenty of 2nd cousins and in-laws there. I know y'all love to spend the almighty quids like there ain't no tomorrow, especially at the nearest Weatherspoon's chain pub. Or Kebabish.

Maybe I was stupidly under the impression that northern Europe was much more frugal and savvy. But then like Old Mother Europe, there's a lot of facades, buildings and personal and financial.

And now that Carilion's collapsed, how's it affecting those near and dear to you?

[RetiredAt63]

Canadians used to be considered more financially conservative than Americans.  Our banking system is still more conservative, but our savings rate is pathetic.  And our merchants are adopting all the American tactics - lots of advertising, "Black Friday" (how silly, not a holiday for us), pre-Christmas sales, etc..

[UKMustache]

@UKMustache I tend to think of the British and Europeans as two separate identities. I have come to the UK several times, have plenty of 2nd cousins and in-laws there. I know y'all love to spend the almighty quids like there ain't no tomorrow, especially at the nearest Weatherspoon's chain pub. Or Kebabish.

Maybe I was stupidly under the impression that northern Europe was much more frugal and savvy. But then like Old Mother Europe, there's a lot of facades, buildings and personal and financial.

And now that Carilion's collapsed, how's it affecting those near and dear to you?

Unfortunately just over half the UK agreed with you not too long ago, so it's not long before we are two separate identities.

It's too early to say what the impact of Carillion will be, I believe many of the projects are being taken in house by other parties so the damage could be largely mitigated.  Here's hoping anyway, I could do with another 12 months before we see trigger a correction!

[Imma]

@UKMustache I tend to think of the British and Europeans as two separate identities. I have come to the UK several times, have plenty of 2nd cousins and in-laws there. I know y'all love to spend the almighty quids like there ain't no tomorrow, especially at the nearest Weatherspoon's chain pub. Or Kebabish.

Maybe I was stupidly under the impression that northern Europe was much more frugal and savvy. But then like Old Mother Europe, there's a lot of facades, buildings and personal and financial.

My mother used to work in the UK and she always said that on the continent we're 10 years behind on the UK, and the UK's 25 years behind on the USA when it comes to financial matters. I do think that shopping and eating out are a lot less common in here than in the US, and so is spending money on 'flashy' things. Because of the strict calvinist heritage in north/west Europe, borrowing money and spending on decadent things used to be heavily frowned upon. It's now a little bit more acceptable because of celebrity culture, but most people still wear jeans and a t-shirt, most women don't have fake nails, fake tan, whitened teeth or have their hair blow dried. This seems to be a LOT more common in the UK.

Household debts are generally very high in western Europe, that's mainly because land is insanely expensive and prices go up most of the time and never go down a lot, land is just very scarce. People have very high mortgages because that's the only way you can buy a house and it varies from country to country whether deposits are required. In my own country (the NL) the government has new strict rules for mortgages. A (small) deposit is now mandatory.

While I support the regulation of the financial industry, it has led to unintended consequences. Because the regulated formal banking sector is now so strict, people turn to the unregulated part of the market. 100% interest only mortgages have been outlawed and any existing loans are now taken into account when you apply for a mortgage. I think any existing loan is actually weighed 150%, so if you have a loan for originally 10.000, the lender has to subtract 15.000 or something from your max. mortgage even if the actual balance of the loan is now only 2000.

People used to pay cash for things like cars, but they have less disposable income now because they have to pay off the mortgage. Taking out a regular loan from the bank for a car is unwise for people who want to buy a home or refinance, so instead they will lease a car because the lease payments are not a loan and not taken into account for a mortgage. Leasing is very expensive compared to buying or even a loan, and you end up with nothing. Lease companies are almost completely unregulated. So these laws basically just shift loans from the responsible, regulated sector to the irresponsible loan shark business.

[Imma]

@UKMustache I tend to think of the British and Europeans as two separate identities. I have come to the UK several times, have plenty of 2nd cousins and in-laws there. I know y'all love to spend the almighty quids like there ain't no tomorrow, especially at the nearest Weatherspoon's chain pub. Or Kebabish.

Maybe I was stupidly under the impression that northern Europe was much more frugal and savvy. But then like Old Mother Europe, there's a lot of facades, buildings and personal and financial.

And now that Carilion's collapsed, how's it affecting those near and dear to you?

Unfortunately just over half the UK agreed with you not too long ago, so it's not long before we are two separate identities.

This Brexit thing is definitely becoming a bigger disaster by the day. We do a lot of business with the UK and this uncertainty isn't doing anyone any good. And let's not even talk about exchange rates. There are strong regional identities but I believe they can exist within the structure of Europe. In the end I think there's a lot more (both culturally and economically) that connects us Europeans to each other than what divides us.

[BTDretire]

I have tried to talk to her about this, but it's difficult because she just denies it. I try to ignore it when she says things like this, but it makes my blood boil. I just don't really get it because I wasn't raised like that and my mum has always lead a pretty simple life herself. She did move to another city when we were adults and she's in a different social circle now, full of people much wealthier than she is. Maybe they're a bit of a bad influence.

 We have an unwritten but getting to be a well worn rule in our home, it is better to have others waste their energy being mad at us then to waste our energy being at them. It is mostly used with family members.


  I won't give much detail: arrgh, the more I wrote the more detail I gave, so here are the details. The 'family' wanted us to sponsor another part of the family consisting 4 members into the states. Because our life was very busy owning our own business (plus I'm retiring) and knowing how little help the family is to the family, we opted out and would not do this. There was much discussion and even hand written letters begging. But NO!

 I told one family member that everyone in the family relies on my wife to do way to many things now, (she speaks the best English and they use their lack, as an excuse), if we did what you are asking, we would not have time to run our business, because there would be no help from the family.
 This was passed to other family members and pissed everyone off.

 When  a family is sponsored, you need to take care of everything from housing, food, doctor, dentist, car, insurance, school, documents, money, etc. So No! It was quiet year with the family mad at us, but then more and more contact was made. (I enjoyed the time off as did my wife, for a while)
  Then out of the blue with zero mention, 1 member of this family shows up, he is accepted to at an out of state school. This family member is going to spend three weeks at the sponsors house before school starts. Everyday my wife gets a call with all the complaints about the lazy do nothing young man, how he is afraid of the dark and leaves the lights on all night, how he won't clean up after dinner, how he demands a fresh towel everyday, won't eat the meal they cook, needs something else cooked, how he spends all day on his phone playing video games, and much more. A week of daily complaints!
  At the end of the first week the husband of the sponsoring pair came over and I see he is having a very animated conversation with my wife in their native language. I usually ignore most of what is going on, but after he left I ask my wife what that was about. She got a grin 1/2 mile wide and said, he apologized for the whole year of being mad at us and how he now understands what he was asking us to do.
  The next two weeks there are several attempts to get other family members to pitch in and help pay for the the young man's rent, food money and school tuition, also several attempts to get other family to take in the young man for a few days, this never happens, as I said no one wants to help.
 By the end of the 3 weeks they are trying to find ways to send him back to the home country. He is now at school, but I wonder how much support they will give him.
  I have pointed out to my wife how unfair it is for them to commit to this and then within 3 weeks decide they don't want to. She agrees but has made it clear she does not want to hear anymore about it from her family.

  I have this desire to tell them they did nothing compared to, bringing the whole family, but I won't do it.

 Also during this first week, the sponsor, my wife's sister, tried to point out SHE was the only one that could have sponsored the young man, because she had $40,000 in the bank to prove she could handle the responsibility. My wife held her tongue and didn't point out we have savings to generate over $75,000 every year for the rest of our lives.

  The apology was, as they say, priceless!

 I might add, now the relatives do get it!

[mm1970]

I have tried to talk to her about this, but it's difficult because she just denies it. I try to ignore it when she says things like this, but it makes my blood boil. I just don't really get it because I wasn't raised like that and my mum has always lead a pretty simple life herself. She did move to another city when we were adults and she's in a different social circle now, full of people much wealthier than she is. Maybe they're a bit of a bad influence.

 We have an unwritten but getting to be a well worn rule in our home, it is better to have others waste their energy being mad at us then to waste our energy being at them. It is mostly used with family members.

snip
 
  The apology was, as they say, priceless!

 I might add, now the relatives do get it!

That was amazing.  And fascinating. I've just recently begun to realize issues with foreigners sometimes, by reading blogs.  I didn't realize that some countries the teenagers are so accustomed to servants that they don't actually know how to hang up a towel so it dries (and reuse it), and take basic care of themselves.

Most of my experience with teens from other countries (and even then, not direct experience, just via family) is Denmark.  Not all countries are the same!

[BTDretire]

I have tried to talk to her about this, but it's difficult because she just denies it. I try to ignore it when she says things like this, but it makes my blood boil. I just don't really get it because I wasn't raised like that and my mum has always lead a pretty simple life herself. She did move to another city when we were adults and she's in a different social circle now, full of people much wealthier than she is. Maybe they're a bit of a bad influence.

 We have an unwritten but getting to be a well worn rule in our home, it is better to have others waste their energy being mad at us then to waste our energy being at them. It is mostly used with family members.

snip
 
  The apology was, as they say, priceless!

 I might add, now the relatives do get it!

That was amazing.  And fascinating. I've just recently begun to realize issues with foreigners sometimes, by reading blogs.

There is so much more gossip I could tell.

  I didn't realize that some countries the teenagers are so accustomed to servants that they don't actually know how to hang up a towel so it dries (and reuse it), and take basic care of themselves.

The boy's mother did everything for him, even took care of a chamber pot so he didn't need to walk downstairs to use the bathroom.

Most of my experience with teens from other countries (and even then, not direct experience, just via family) is Denmark.  Not all countries are the same!

This culture pushes their children very hard to excel, if they don't excel as the parents say, it brings shame to the parents. My wife is still pushing our 26 your old daughter even though she graduated with a minor and major 1yr+ early from a university and is 1 semester before she gets a Masters. But it is never enough.
 I'm very proud of my daughter and she knows it, she's a wonderful strong young lady, she gets a lot of that strength from her mother. When she does certain things, I'll tease, just like your mother, She'll say,
"I'm not like my mother!"  :-)
On the plus side, my wife's attitude and tenacity is also why we are FI.

[LeRainDrop]

I have tried to talk to her about this, but it's difficult because she just denies it. I try to ignore it when she says things like this, but it makes my blood boil. I just don't really get it because I wasn't raised like that and my mum has always lead a pretty simple life herself. She did move to another city when we were adults and she's in a different social circle now, full of people much wealthier than she is. Maybe they're a bit of a bad influence.

 We have an unwritten but getting to be a well worn rule in our home, it is better to have others waste their energy being mad at us then to waste our energy being at them. It is mostly used with family members.

snip
 
  The apology was, as they say, priceless!

 I might add, now the relatives do get it!

That was amazing.  And fascinating. I've just recently begun to realize issues with foreigners sometimes, by reading blogs.  I didn't realize that some countries the teenagers are so accustomed to servants that they don't actually know how to hang up a towel so it dries (and reuse it), and take basic care of themselves.

Most of my experience with teens from other countries (and even then, not direct experience, just via family) is Denmark.  Not all countries are the same!

Fascinating for sure!  Thanks for sharing, BTDretire.

[With This Herring]

*snip*
 By the end of the 3 weeks they are trying to find ways to send him back to the home country. He is now at school, but I wonder how much support they will give him.
  I have pointed out to my wife how unfair it is for them to commit to this and then within 3 weeks decide they don't want to. She agrees but has made it clear she does not want to hear anymore about it from her family.
*snip*

In my (uninformed) opinion, they committed to sponsoring an semi-adult, not to spoon-feeding a baby, so I wouldn't blame them for trying to get out of it now. 

But man, what a story!  A chamber pot!

[Hula Hoop]

*snip*
 By the end of the 3 weeks they are trying to find ways to send him back to the home country. He is now at school, but I wonder how much support they will give him.
  I have pointed out to my wife how unfair it is for them to commit to this and then within 3 weeks decide they don't want to. She agrees but has made it clear she does not want to hear anymore about it from her family.
*snip*

In my (uninformed) opinion, they committed to sponsoring an semi-adult, not to spoon-feeding a baby, so I wouldn't blame them for trying to get out of it now. 

But man, what a story!  A chamber pot!

Yes - that is completely amazing to imagine the mother dealing with a chamber pot.  Yikes.  Now I kind of want to know what country they are from.  I'm really curious.

For the Europe and frugality discussion above - one of my pet peeves is people making generalizations about Europe.  I live in one of the original member states of the European Union (Italy) and almost everything is completely different here from, say, Germany- from weather, to food, to language, to attitudes towards money and this is Western Europe.  There is also the whole of Eastern Europe which is also very different. 

Anyway, Italians have traditionally been very fiscally responsible.  Personal savings rates are very high, home ownership is high and salaries are low. People grow their own veggies, can stuff and live in tiny spaces with extended family. Things kind of changed to some extent during the boom years of the 80s but now with the crisis and stagnation people have had to go back to the old ways to some extent.  I tend to hang out with not so wealthy people though and our kids go to a heavily immigrant school so obviously things would be different in a posher area.  Our friends drive ancient, tiny cars, holidays are at the ancestral village down south staying with family where they also stock up on homemade canned tomatoes, olive oil and wine, they live in tiny apartments and only move out of their parents home at a very advanced age. Italians also have an extremely low birth rate and tend to have either 0 or 1 kid.  Here it's not so much a choice as a necessity as salaries are so low generally speaking.

[Roadrunner53]

Relatives had a very small greenhouse filled with exotic flowers. The flowers were warm and toasty (like 85 degrees) while the children and wife had barely any heat in the house. Would run out of oil for the house heat but always had heat for the flowers. This was only a hobby and no income was made from flowers.

[Imma]

There are indeed huge differences between European countries. I have lived only in the north and west, the mostly protestant countries. That's where my experience comes from. Things are different in eastern en southern Europe. Obviously first of all because the northern and western countries are a lot wealthier than the southern and eastern countries. I also think the difference in religion (protestant vs. catholic / orthodox) plays a major role.

Still, I do believe there's a lot more that unites Europe rather than what divides us. I work in international trade and it's very easy to deal with other Europeans - and we have customers and suppliers all across Europe. It takes a lot more effort / intercultural communication skills to deal with Americans, Asians or people from the Middle East.

[iris lily]

Relatives had a very small greenhouse filled with exotic flowers. The flowers were warm and toasty (like 85 degrees) while the children and wife had barely any heat in the house. Would run out of oil for the house heat but always had heat for the flowers. This was only a hobby and no income was made from flowers.

I feel compelled to report this prejudicial post against innocent flowers. It is not their fault they cant generate income, they are blameless! There is nothing wrong with giving the  flowers in the house more attention and resources than the humans. Really, seek treatment for your Anthophobia.


KIDDING!  :)

[Hula Hoop]

Relatives had a very small greenhouse filled with exotic flowers. The flowers were warm and toasty (like 85 degrees) while the children and wife had barely any heat in the house. Would run out of oil for the house heat but always had heat for the flowers. This was only a hobby and no income was made from flowers.

What about the husband?  Did he just sit in the greenhouse with the flowers while the wife and kids shivered in the main house?

[Roadrunner53]

He doted on the flowers by watering, plucking off dead leaves and planting other junk. He had a hobo wallet and a rich mans hobby. He grew orchids and many varieties. I thought it was beyond STUPID! Granted the flowers were pretty but a STUPID hobby for someone who couldn't afford it. Plus, to make his family suffer freezing in the house while the plants had so much heat was ridiculous. His house needed repair too. He was a selfish pig and everything was all about him.

[Sun Hat]

Our friends drive ancient, tiny cars, holidays are at the ancestral village down south staying with family where they also stock up on homemade canned tomatoes, olive oil and wine, they live in tiny apartments and only move out of their parents home at a very advanced age.

I know that you're talking about a lifestyle imposed by financial limitation rather than choice, but holidays in southern Italy in villages where tomatoes, olives and grapes are grown sound absolutely perfect to this chilly, gardening obsessed Canadian!

[Sibley]

He doted on the flowers by watering, plucking off dead leaves and planting other junk. He had a hobo wallet and a rich mans hobby. He grew orchids and many varieties. I thought it was beyond STUPID! Granted the flowers were pretty but a STUPID hobby for someone who couldn't afford it. Plus, to make his family suffer freezing in the house while the plants had so much heat was ridiculous. His house needed repair too. He was a selfish pig and everything was all about him.

In a perfect world, his wife would divorce him, get primary custody of the kids AND the house. Including the greenhouse. Then she could proceed to sell the house to someone who doesn't care about flowers and ex-husband could watch from a distance as the greenhouse was demolished.

[Hula Hoop]

Our friends drive ancient, tiny cars, holidays are at the ancestral village down south staying with family where they also stock up on homemade canned tomatoes, olive oil and wine, they live in tiny apartments and only move out of their parents home at a very advanced age.

I know that you're talking about a lifestyle imposed by financial limitation rather than choice, but holidays in southern Italy in villages where tomatoes, olives and grapes are grown sound absolutely perfect to this chilly, gardening obsessed Canadian!

I doubt many non-Italians would deal very well with a month spent picking and canning a million tomatoes in oppressive heat in a non air conditioned 2-3 room house with their entire extended family who hate each other (obviously, not everyone's family hates each other but several of my Italian friends are in this situation each summer.  No matter how great the tomato sauce tastes, this is so not how I want to spend my summer vacations.

[Roadrunner53]

Sibley, Hahaha, that would have been great to see the green house demolished! Unfortunately wife would have never divorced him. She was a doormat. He was a monster who used her first son who was born before they married as his personal slave. He made him pluck weeds all day long in the summer while the other kids were playing baseball. He wouldn't take the kid to any sports that he adored. If he wanted to play he had to walk or bike home probably 7 miles each way on a busy road. The mother never drove. Typical 1950's household. The man also had anger problems and if he didn't like his dinner, he would toss the plate with food on it across the room and it would smash on the wall. Yep, what a monster and if this kid was in a household like this today, they would have removed the kid and put him in foster care. The kid bought this jerk a Happy Father's Day mug from his paper route and the monster put a crappy mug in the paper bag and tossed it against the wall and broke it. The kid thought his mug was in the bag. This broke his heart forever. The monster thought it was FUNNY. What some kids go thru is just horrible.

[Sun Hat]

I doubt many non-Italians would deal very well with a month spent picking and canning a million tomatoes in oppressive heat in a non air conditioned 2-3 room house with their entire extended family who hate each other (obviously, not everyone's family hates each other but several of my Italian friends are in this situation each summer.  No matter how great the tomato sauce tastes, this is so not how I want to spend my summer vacations.

Ok, that does sound terrible. I pick and can tomatoes for a month, but it's just the dog and I, so it's a very pleasant process. Too crowded conditions can sour any experience.

[LeRainDrop]

Sibley, Hahaha, that would have been great to see the green house demolished! Unfortunately wife would have never divorced him. She was a doormat. He was a monster who used her first son who was born before they married as his personal slave. He made him pluck weeds all day long in the summer while the other kids were playing baseball. He wouldn't take the kid to any sports that he adored. If he wanted to play he had to walk or bike home probably 7 miles each way on a busy road. The mother never drove. Typical 1950's household. The man also had anger problems and if he didn't like his dinner, he would toss the plate with food on it across the room and it would smash on the wall. Yep, what a monster and if this kid was in a household like this today, they would have removed the kid and put him in foster care. The kid bought this jerk a Happy Father's Day mug from his paper route and the monster put a crappy mug in the paper bag and tossed it against the wall and broke it. The kid thought his mug was in the bag. This broke his heart forever. The monster thought it was FUNNY. What some kids go thru is just horrible.

Sounds like my broke-ass, monster brother.  A few weeks ago, he took my mom's cell phone and then, pretending to be her, texted me late at night saying that my brother (meaning himself) had slit his wrists.  He had not actually self-harmed.  He later told mom that he wanted me to suffer with feeling like I caused him to kill himself because I hadn't answered his phone calls that day, even though I did respond to his text message.  Anyhow, I guess this is a forum for disclosing bad money management, not lack of self-control and abuse.  So, I will add that at 30 years old, this guy was given $6k from my parents so that he could move across the country and work on his "dream."  He promptly spent ALL the money before he even reached the other side of the country and then asked to "borrow" money from me and my other brother.  We did give him a "last chance loan," which he amazingly did pay back a few years later.  The next few years involved more emotional/psychological coercion by him to "loan" him more money (only mom is the softy who gave more), and lots of mistreatment of his then-girlfriend.  Eventually, he couldn't manage staying there anymore, which is why he trekked back across the country last year to live with mom and leach off of her entirely.  She is still working full-time-plus hours in her 60s to support herself, meanwhile able-bodied man in his prime can't lift a finger and collected a very generous unemployment benefit till it just ran out.

[mustachepungoeshere]

Sounds like my broke-ass, monster brother.  A few weeks ago, he took my mom's cell phone and then, pretending to be her, texted me late at night saying that my brother (meaning himself) had slit his wrists...

That is horrific. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

... because I hadn't answered his phone calls that day, even though I did respond to his text message

I think he's beyond logic at this point.

[londonstache]

Because of the strict calvinist heritage in north/west Europe, borrowing money and spending on decadent things used to be heavily frowned upon. It's now a little bit more acceptable because of celebrity culture, but most people still wear jeans and a t-shirt, most women don't have fake nails, fake tan, whitened teeth or have their hair blow dried. This seems to be a LOT more common in the UK.

@Imma my wife (Mrs londonstache) is half Dutch and I'm working on the language currently. I'm of the opinion that the general Dutch approach I've seen so far of keep things simple, spend time outside and with family, be frugal etc. is a far better way of living. "Kijken, kijken, niet kopen"* is also our shopping philosophy!

*For the non-Dutch speaker, "Look, but don't buy"

[Roadrunner53]

Eventually, he couldn't manage staying there anymore, which is why he trekked back across the country last year to live with mom and leach off of her entirely.  She is still working full-time-plus hours in her 60s to support herself, meanwhile able-bodied man in his prime can't lift a finger and collected a very generous unemployment benefit till it just ran out.
[/quote]

LeRainDrop, your brother sounds like a jerk to expect his mommy, at his age, to support him! So many parents are doing this. My neighbor has two sons, one around 21 and the other around 25. Both live at home rent free. They pay NOTHING! The only thing I think they pay for is food and they seem to eat a lot of fast food. The older kid works some seasonal summer work so he only works around 6-7 months and the other younger one who went to trade school to be a plumber can't be bothered to work as an apprentice so he can get his tradesman's license. He works off and on at various jobs then quits. He sells junk parts and has made the yard a messed up junkyard. These two are going nowhere. WHY, WHY, WHY don't these kids have any vision for the future? Do they see themselves living at home with daddy till they retire? Plus, wouldn't you think they would want to travel around the United States or the world? Guess not! No vision for anything. How do kids go to school for 12 years and end up like this?

[Just Joe]

These kinds of children (men) who leach may be more common than we think. My coworker has a 20s yr old son like this and the family just seems to enable it. He's been in involved in drugs, etc. Family struggles to support him financially. In and out of rehab, changes jobs like the rest of us change clothes. Debt, problems and more problems.

I know a several more of these kinds of guys unable to launch into adulthood despite being halfway through their lives. Parents just keep footing the bill.

[MgoSam]

No matter how great the tomato sauce tastes, this is so not how I want to spend my summer vacations.

Yup, I recall a ton of childhood vacations revolving around spending time at various family members where I was essentially told to be visible but silent unless any of the uncles and aunts wanted to tell me how to live my life. Then I was expected to lap up whatever commands they gave and not say a word that could be considered against their advice.

My sister was organizing a cousin get together since we are all spread out over the country. She was planning to do it at a Mexican resort next Christmas. But the adults in the family found out and now it is a family reunion. I've already messaged her that I'm not going to go and she's responded by saying that she understands.

[Roadrunner53]

The father of these guys proposed that they start paying some of the utilities and the two of them had a hissy fit and 'threatened' to leave! Hahahha, then told the father all the places they could go and live for free! OMG, I would have told them to pack their bags and GO, GO, GO! This was several years ago and they are still there.

[Just Joe]

By all means leave! Let me help you gather your things! I'll throw it to -errr, put it on the sidewalk for you (from a distance). ;)

[BJacks]

These kinds of children (men) who leach may be more common than we think. My coworker has a 20s yr old son like this and the family just seems to enable it. He's been in involved in drugs, etc. Family struggles to support him financially. In and out of rehab, changes jobs like the rest of us change clothes. Debt, problems and more problems.

I know a several more of these kinds of guys unable to launch into adulthood despite being halfway through their lives. Parents just keep footing the bill.

You just described my brother and my father's relationship. My brother is 23 and lives with my dad. Does who knows what kinds of drugs and is an alcoholic. My dad is worried that he'll end up killing himself or get deeper involved than he is if he kicks him out. So he lets him stay.

Brother doesn't pay rent but is under the delusion that he is doing my dad a favor by staying there and apparently my dad would 'lose the house' if he wasn't there to 'take care of things'. Our grandparents carry the mortgage and my dad literally build the house. I don't think he even mows the lawn.

If my brother makes it to 25 at this point he'll be lucky. He is dealing with one DUI and it's just a matter of time until the next one. We did not have it rough growing up but the way he tells it he had a horrible childhood and everything in his life that could go wrong has.

[Roadrunner53]

These kids are beyond spoiled rotten. I think the father has a bit of a guilt trip because the mother was a raging alcoholic and her shenanigans of embarrassment happened when they were teens. The father finally divorced her. She was a menace and was thrown out of bars, lost her license, cracked up her car, picked her kid up at school drunk, arrested a few times and put in jail. Got kicked out of a bar, fell down in the parking lot and broke her teeth. Went to rehab so many times the insurance wouldn't pay for any more times. But the father isn't doing these guys any favors if you ask me guilt trip or not!

[Apple_Tango]

If my brother makes it to 25 at this point he'll be lucky. He is dealing with one DUI and it's just a matter of time until the next one. We did not have it rough growing up but the way he tells it he had a horrible childhood and everything in his life that could go wrong has.

I've always wondered about that... Honestly I'm a sheltered person so I don't know anyone who does street drugs (statistically I probably do...I do know alcoholics and one person who's addicted to pain pills due to bad health problems). But on the tv show Intervention, there is usually a story about abuse or trauma in childhood and the kid turns to drugs to cope with it. And yet there might be siblings who went through the same thing that are stone cold sober.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

The father of these guys proposed that they start paying some of the utilities and the two of them had a hissy fit and 'threatened' to leave! Hahahha, then told the father all the places they could go and live for free! OMG, I would have told them to pack their bags and GO, GO, GO! This was several years ago and they are still there.

Funny-- my 18-year-old daughter threw a tantrum on the 25th of December when I was unwilling to give her money she hadn't earned. She announced she was leaving and that I'd never see her again, and my response (now that she's 18) was "that actually works for me". Since then she has not returned.

I'm not a fan of being verbally, emotionally, socially, psychologically, financially, and occasionally even physically abused. Until she turned 18 the law required that I not respond in kind and that I support her financially and allow her continued access to my home regardless of her behavior. The conditions of our adoption also required that I never lay a hand on her even in self defense. However, once she turned 18 I was no longer required to be a punching bag or ATM.

If having a positive relationship with me isn't important to her, I refuse to allow it to be important to me. My fucks stepped right into a row (how grateful I am to have them well trained) and I began executing Escape Plan Alpha.

It was too late at night to make a hardware store run, but I changed the locks the next day and got myself off the car title and alerted the neighborhood watch the following day. On the third day my ego rose from the dead because I got all her belongings boxed up and moved to a storage shed. In exchange for her signature on the storage shed contract, I gave up the hostage I'd taken: the last of the money I'd saved for her college (which she hadn't yet succeeded in stealing and spending on lowlifes). She's still on my health insurance for the calendar year and I paid for her wisdom tooth surgery earlier in January, however I'm no longer paying for any vehicle related expenses. I've had no further contact from her aside from a phone call after her wisdom tooth surgery to thank me for making it happen (I can't imagine who put her up to it-- this brat doesn't experience gratitude much less express it; of course she was on pain meds so that could have changed her behavior).

Since then I've been gradually restoring the house to its pre-brat condition. Five doors need to be replaced due to having been irreparably damaged, one jamb must be replaced due to having been ripped entirely off and snapped. I'm doing drywall repair, filling in multiple holes she bashed or gouged in the walls. A room will have to be entirely repainted and the carpets in two rooms removed and replaced. I was able to temporarily salvage the blinds and curtain rods although all are damaged.

The Venomous Spaz Beast and I are living happily ever after. I haven't hosted any big dinner parties yet but had a couple people over for dinner yesterday evening. Gradually things are falling back into place. I'm replenishing the 'stache at the same time. Overall I expected to bounce back a lot faster however shock is real. The VSB is still adjusting and will have to repeat the Canine Good Citizen test, but seems to be happier with my daughter gone and more attention and lap time for her.

[Sibley]

Sibley, Hahaha, that would have been great to see the green house demolished! Unfortunately wife would have never divorced him. She was a doormat. He was a monster who used her first son who was born before they married as his personal slave. He made him pluck weeds all day long in the summer while the other kids were playing baseball. He wouldn't take the kid to any sports that he adored. If he wanted to play he had to walk or bike home probably 7 miles each way on a busy road. The mother never drove. Typical 1950's household. The man also had anger problems and if he didn't like his dinner, he would toss the plate with food on it across the room and it would smash on the wall. Yep, what a monster and if this kid was in a household like this today, they would have removed the kid and put him in foster care. The kid bought this jerk a Happy Father's Day mug from his paper route and the monster put a crappy mug in the paper bag and tossed it against the wall and broke it. The kid thought his mug was in the bag. This broke his heart forever. The monster thought it was FUNNY. What some kids go thru is just horrible.

Sounds like my broke-ass, monster brother.  A few weeks ago, he took my mom's cell phone and then, pretending to be her, texted me late at night saying that my brother (meaning himself) had slit his wrists.  He had not actually self-harmed.  He later told mom that he wanted me to suffer with feeling like I caused him to kill himself because I hadn't answered his phone calls that day, even though I did respond to his text message.  Anyhow, I guess this is a forum for disclosing bad money management, not lack of self-control and abuse.  So, I will add that at 30 years old, this guy was given $6k from my parents so that he could move across the country and work on his "dream."  He promptly spent ALL the money before he even reached the other side of the country and then asked to "borrow" money from me and my other brother.  We did give him a "last chance loan," which he amazingly did pay back a few years later.  The next few years involved more emotional/psychological coercion by him to "loan" him more money (only mom is the softy who gave more), and lots of mistreatment of his then-girlfriend.  Eventually, he couldn't manage staying there anymore, which is why he trekked back across the country last year to live with mom and leach off of her entirely.  She is still working full-time-plus hours in her 60s to support herself, meanwhile able-bodied man in his prime can't lift a finger and collected a very generous unemployment benefit till it just ran out.

Reddit. Look for JustNoMIL, JustNoSpouse, JustNoFamily, and Raised by Narcissists. I'm sure there's others, but those are the ones I know about. If any of it applies to you, I'm so sorry but there's support out there.

[Sibley]

The father of these guys proposed that they start paying some of the utilities and the two of them had a hissy fit and 'threatened' to leave! Hahahha, then told the father all the places they could go and live for free! OMG, I would have told them to pack their bags and GO, GO, GO! This was several years ago and they are still there.

Funny-- my 18-year-old daughter threw a tantrum on the 25th of December when I was unwilling to give her money she hadn't earned. She announced she was leaving and that I'd never see her again, and my response (now that she's 18) was "that actually works for me". Since then she has not returned.

I'm not a fan of being verbally, emotionally, socially, psychologically, financially, and occasionally even physically abused. Until she turned 18 the law required that I not respond in kind and that I support her financially and allow her continued access to my home regardless of her behavior. The conditions of our adoption also required that I never lay a hand on her even in self defense. However, once she turned 18 I was no longer required to be a punching bag or ATM.

If having a positive relationship with me isn't important to her, I refuse to allow it to be important to me. My fucks stepped right into a row (how grateful I am to have them well trained) and I began executing Escape Plan Alpha.

It was too late at night to make a hardware store run, but I changed the locks the next day and got myself off the car title and alerted the neighborhood watch the following day. On the third day my ego rose from the dead because I got all her belongings boxed up and moved to a storage shed. In exchange for her signature on the storage shed contract, I gave up the hostage I'd taken: the last of the money I'd saved for her college (which she hadn't yet succeeded in stealing and spending on lowlifes). She's still on my health insurance for the calendar year and I paid for her wisdom tooth surgery earlier in January, however I'm no longer paying for any vehicle related expenses. I've had no further contact from her aside from a phone call after her wisdom tooth surgery to thank me for making it happen (I can't imagine who put her up to it-- this brat doesn't experience gratitude much less express it; of course she was on pain meds so that could have changed her behavior).

Since then I've been gradually restoring the house to its pre-brat condition. Five doors need to be replaced due to having been irreparably damaged, one jamb must be replaced due to having been ripped entirely off and snapped. I'm doing drywall repair, filling in multiple holes she bashed or gouged in the walls. A room will have to be entirely repainted and the carpets in two rooms removed and replaced. I was able to temporarily salvage the blinds and curtain rods although all are damaged.

The Venomous Spaz Beast and I are living happily ever after. I haven't hosted any big dinner parties yet but had a couple people over for dinner yesterday evening. Gradually things are falling back into place. I'm replenishing the 'stache at the same time. Overall I expected to bounce back a lot faster however shock is real. The VSB is still adjusting and will have to repeat the Canine Good Citizen test, but seems to be happier with my daughter gone and more attention and lap time for her.

I'm so sorry. People can be real shits sometimes. Hopefully she'll straighten herself out and become a decent human being.

[Gronnie]

The father of these guys proposed that they start paying some of the utilities and the two of them had a hissy fit and 'threatened' to leave! Hahahha, then told the father all the places they could go and live for free! OMG, I would have told them to pack their bags and GO, GO, GO! This was several years ago and they are still there.

Funny-- my 18-year-old daughter threw a tantrum on the 25th of December when I was unwilling to give her money she hadn't earned. She announced she was leaving and that I'd never see her again, and my response (now that she's 18) was "that actually works for me". Since then she has not returned.

I'm not a fan of being verbally, emotionally, socially, psychologically, financially, and occasionally even physically abused. Until she turned 18 the law required that I not respond in kind and that I support her financially and allow her continued access to my home regardless of her behavior. The conditions of our adoption also required that I never lay a hand on her even in self defense. However, once she turned 18 I was no longer required to be a punching bag or ATM.

If having a positive relationship with me isn't important to her, I refuse to allow it to be important to me. My fucks stepped right into a row (how grateful I am to have them well trained) and I began executing Escape Plan Alpha.

It was too late at night to make a hardware store run, but I changed the locks the next day and got myself off the car title and alerted the neighborhood watch the following day. On the third day my ego rose from the dead because I got all her belongings boxed up and moved to a storage shed. In exchange for her signature on the storage shed contract, I gave up the hostage I'd taken: the last of the money I'd saved for her college (which she hadn't yet succeeded in stealing and spending on lowlifes). She's still on my health insurance for the calendar year and I paid for her wisdom tooth surgery earlier in January, however I'm no longer paying for any vehicle related expenses. I've had no further contact from her aside from a phone call after her wisdom tooth surgery to thank me for making it happen (I can't imagine who put her up to it-- this brat doesn't experience gratitude much less express it; of course she was on pain meds so that could have changed her behavior).

Since then I've been gradually restoring the house to its pre-brat condition. Five doors need to be replaced due to having been irreparably damaged, one jamb must be replaced due to having been ripped entirely off and snapped. I'm doing drywall repair, filling in multiple holes she bashed or gouged in the walls. A room will have to be entirely repainted and the carpets in two rooms removed and replaced. I was able to temporarily salvage the blinds and curtain rods although all are damaged.

The Venomous Spaz Beast and I are living happily ever after. I haven't hosted any big dinner parties yet but had a couple people over for dinner yesterday evening. Gradually things are falling back into place. I'm replenishing the 'stache at the same time. Overall I expected to bounce back a lot faster however shock is real. The VSB is still adjusting and will have to repeat the Canine Good Citizen test, but seems to be happier with my daughter gone and more attention and lap time for her.

So sorry it has turned out like this for you. My uncle adopted a bunch of "problem" children (Native American children where mother was on drugs and all had fetal alcohol syndrome). For the most part, the ones he got young enough are turning out great, but the older ones all are just terrible people. Expect to have an infant dumped on your doorstep at some point.

[Roadrunner53]

TheGrimSqueaker, WOW, just WOW, she will realize one day what she threw away. I hope that day comes and you all can have a peaceful reunion.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

The father of these guys proposed that they start paying some of the utilities and the two of them had a hissy fit and 'threatened' to leave! Hahahha, then told the father all the places they could go and live for free! OMG, I would have told them to pack their bags and GO, GO, GO! This was several years ago and they are still there.

Funny-- my 18-year-old daughter threw a tantrum on the 25th of December when I was unwilling to give her money she hadn't earned. She announced she was leaving and that I'd never see her again, and my response (now that she's 18) was "that actually works for me". Since then she has not returned.

I'm not a fan of being verbally, emotionally, socially, psychologically, financially, and occasionally even physically abused. Until she turned 18 the law required that I not respond in kind and that I support her financially and allow her continued access to my home regardless of her behavior. The conditions of our adoption also required that I never lay a hand on her even in self defense. However, once she turned 18 I was no longer required to be a punching bag or ATM.

If having a positive relationship with me isn't important to her, I refuse to allow it to be important to me. My fucks stepped right into a row (how grateful I am to have them well trained) and I began executing Escape Plan Alpha.

It was too late at night to make a hardware store run, but I changed the locks the next day and got myself off the car title and alerted the neighborhood watch the following day. On the third day my ego rose from the dead because I got all her belongings boxed up and moved to a storage shed. In exchange for her signature on the storage shed contract, I gave up the hostage I'd taken: the last of the money I'd saved for her college (which she hadn't yet succeeded in stealing and spending on lowlifes). She's still on my health insurance for the calendar year and I paid for her wisdom tooth surgery earlier in January, however I'm no longer paying for any vehicle related expenses. I've had no further contact from her aside from a phone call after her wisdom tooth surgery to thank me for making it happen (I can't imagine who put her up to it-- this brat doesn't experience gratitude much less express it; of course she was on pain meds so that could have changed her behavior).

Since then I've been gradually restoring the house to its pre-brat condition. Five doors need to be replaced due to having been irreparably damaged, one jamb must be replaced due to having been ripped entirely off and snapped. I'm doing drywall repair, filling in multiple holes she bashed or gouged in the walls. A room will have to be entirely repainted and the carpets in two rooms removed and replaced. I was able to temporarily salvage the blinds and curtain rods although all are damaged.

The Venomous Spaz Beast and I are living happily ever after. I haven't hosted any big dinner parties yet but had a couple people over for dinner yesterday evening. Gradually things are falling back into place. I'm replenishing the 'stache at the same time. Overall I expected to bounce back a lot faster however shock is real. The VSB is still adjusting and will have to repeat the Canine Good Citizen test, but seems to be happier with my daughter gone and more attention and lap time for her.

So sorry it has turned out like this for you. My uncle adopted a bunch of "problem" children (Native American children where mother was on drugs and all had fetal alcohol syndrome). For the most part, the ones he got young enough are turning out great, but the older ones all are just terrible people. Expect to have an infant dumped on your doorstep at some point.

Note to self: 9 months from now, program CPS into speed dial.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

TheGrimSqueaker, WOW, just WOW, she will realize one day what she threw away. I hope that day comes and you all can have a peaceful reunion.

I'm envisioning a healthy but distant relationship. As much distance as is necessary to be healthy. With an extra side order of distance.

[Roadrunner53]

Understand completely! I have a brother in law that is EVIL like his father. He is the spawn of the devil like his father. He caused so many problems over the years that we no longer speak to him. It has been probably 18 years. Sometimes you just have to let go to save your sanity. No need to be a martyr and be subjected to theses people's rants and raves that make your life miserable. Most of the family is dysfunctional except one sister. Hahaha, liked your comment on CPS on speed dial! FUNNY!

[former player]

@TheGrimSqueaker Do you have any advice for anyone thinking of taking on foster children? On a strictly temporary basis (emergency placements, respite placements, and so on)?  I've been thinking of doing this for a while, and there is a desperate shortage of foster parents in my area, but on the other hand I'm fond of my home and its inherited antiques.  If you couldn't make it work, I strongly suspect that I couldn't.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

@TheGrimSqueaker Do you have any advice for anyone thinking of taking on foster children? On a strictly temporary basis (emergency placements, respite placements, and so on)?  I've been thinking of doing this for a while, and there is a desperate shortage of foster parents in my area, but on the other hand I'm fond of my home and its inherited antiques.  If you couldn't make it work, I strongly suspect that I couldn't.

Yes. My advice is: do it if, and only if, you plan to get into fostering as a full-time employment activity for at least one of the adults in your household. Unless you've got someone who can keep his or her eyes on the kiddo(s) 24x7, what you have is a disaster waiting to happen to your home. Absolutely zero children are in foster care because they want to be. They're mad at their bio-parents, mad at family, mad at social workers, and likely to take it out on whatever is convenient. Somebody, somewhere, destroyed something valuable of theirs and the odds are that they'll eventually lose it and pay it forward to you or your home. Especially if (as is the case with emergency care) you're dealing with freshly snatched children who have just been ripped from their homes. They react like kidnap victims because that's what they are.

When you foster, your entire life must revolve around fostering. At least one parent should be present full-time. Even if the child doesn't commit shenanigans, you'll have to deal with multiple appointments. The first two weeks I had my kid, there were something like 15 mandatory appointments on the other side of town. I took two weeks off work just to deal with that, and I was one of the lucky ones: I didn't have to take the kid to mandatory visitation. Visitation is when you take time off work during the school day, pull the kid out of school, drive him or her to the social services office, wait around for a parent who may or may not show up, deal with the resulting meltdown, and generally lose a day's worth of schooling plus the day before and the day after when the kid can't concentrate. This happens once to twice per week. Then there are all the tutoring and Special Ed appointments due to the fact the kid is now behind in school. Add that to medical and psych appointments (you will have at least one medical/dental/psych appointment OR related emergency per week) and your work will invariably suffer. To avoid unemployment it's best to have, or be, a full-time homemaker. The system is set up to reward people who foster full-time. To be financially viable, it generally requires a home to house about three to five foster kids per adult.

Adoption out of foster care works (sometimes) as a byproduct of foster care when a foster placement leads to loving family bonds. I've seen that happen several times. Sometimes when a placement isn't a good fit you'll see a kid blow out of a home and be placed somewhere else such as in a respite or temporary home. (Is this what you're volunteering to do? I don't recommend it.)

There's a big push to try to get hard-to-place kids adopted out. Age, incidentally, isn't a barrier to placement or bonding by itself. The biggest risk, overall, is a one-sided bond like what I ended up with. I bonded with the kiddo enough to overlook her multiple previous placements and to believe the shrinks and professionals who swore she'd changed. As a result I got exactly what I deserved: trapped in a situation in which a fully-grown, violent person with significant documented mental health problems had the right to (a) decline treatment for those problems, and (b) access my home and resources at any time. That ain't fun.

I do recommend charitable ventures and service projects involving kids, which might range from youth sports to volunteer tutoring or community based mentoring.

[former player]

That all makes a lot of sense, thank you.  I haven't heard it set out so clearly in any other information I've seen.

I think a "toe in the water" approach by trying mentoring might be the best option, and then see how it goes.

[kaypinkHH]

Compared to the above posts this post is very light, but I wanted to share.

Over the past 3 months I have lived with my in-laws. I am very very fortunate that they let us stay with them, and they have been feeding us etc. while Mr.HH and I look for a house. We owe them big time. (I'm considering writing them a cheque, but they probably won't cash it...they are hard to shop for.)

That all being said, there are small things that they (early 60s) do differently than us (30), that make us chuckle. (Note, they seem to be happy with their lives, and we haven't complained/critiqued any of this, again we are grateful, but just interesting to see how they live their life vs us!). They are retired, FIL from disability back when he was 51, is now 65. MIL retired at 57, but still works part time. Both have some sort of pension.
 
- They buy so many options of things (not just 1 or two types of fruit...but ALL THE FRUIT), and then cook huge meals with so many options (not just turkey, but HAM, and SAUSAGES!) and have leftovers- but then don't have a plan for the leftovers. I can't imagine how much waste they are producing.
- My MIL came home from her part time retirement gig planning she was going to host people for dinner, and bought pre-shredded cheese for tacos because she was SO TIRED and "it was easier to deal with". Mr.HH and I were around to help! FIL was home ALL DAY, he could have prepped the dinner.
- They buy a lot of pre-cut/pre-washed veggies/fruit, single packages of food, keurig coffee- all these "costly" short cuts that totally make sense if you have little kiddos at home/working full time etc. But nope...we have two retired folk who watch a crazy amount of TV, who think of all these things as good deals!
- Which leads me to- SO MUCH TV. Omg it is on all the time. That is their main hobby.
- Very little recycling.  My FIL doesn't believe in recycling, thinks it actually hurts the environment, and it is all a government scam. Don't get him started on green energy and electric cars!
- Stress over things they can't control: They watch the news, or see a story on facebook, and are PERSONALLY IMPACTED by these stories. Driving around the city/traffic is stressful, weather events are stressful. EVERYTHING IS STRESSFUL.
- Tolerance of things: In the past 3 months my FIL has purchased the following items- New computer (his old one was a bit slow), new dryer (old one was acting weird, probably a loose door latch), new snow tires for the car (old ones were new, just not good enough). He will start looking for a new car soon (he trades in his car every 3 years and continuously carries a loan). Meanwhile MIL works the part time gig to save money to visit her other son and grandchildren across the country.
- FIL is very unhealthy (severely obese, shortness of breath, joint problems, high BP etc. etc.), but considers himself an expert on health, and critiques anyone who is active. MIL/FIL were very concerned when Mr.HH came home from the gym slightly stiff from working out. Comments like "you shouldn't push yourself so hard!" and "so and so started working out, and then died of a heart attack!" are common.
- Meals are mostly meat and carbs, with a few veggies (FIL skips those because he is concerned they may cause kidney stones??), everything is covered in ketchup/dressing/sugary sauces.

I want to say some of the difference are age/generational, but my BIL and his wife have a lot of the above habits (even though they live far away)! It would have been interesting to see if Mr.HH and I hadn't moved away for 6+ years, discovered MMM, decided we cared about our health/the environment, if we would be the same?