Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 3768158 times)

wordnerd

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4300 on: January 14, 2018, 03:08:20 PM »
I previously posted about my parents who bought a boat and then often used it solely as a waterside cocktail bar. Well, they bought it in August and have already upgraded to a larger boat. They originally justified this as "when we sell the smaller boat, it will only $XK more to buy the bigger boat." Then, "well, the new boat has some issues but we're getting $1K off the price." Now, it's "when we sell the smaller boat, it will cover the vast majority of projected repairs to the larger boat." Apparently, "vast majority" means that their asking price for the smaller boat is less than 70% of the projected repairs to the bigger boat. Finally, my dad doubts his ability to get the larger boat out of the slip without damaging it...

Le sigh.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4301 on: January 15, 2018, 04:45:37 AM »
If you are going the laundry - then you can dry it however you like.

Last summer I was drying my laundry on the line outside. And twice I was bitten by a tic. Once I woke up in the morning with a tic hanging in the back on my leg. Another time I was at work in the afternoon and noticed a tic hanging on the inside of my elbow. My colleague suggested that it might be due to line drying outside. The strange thing is that I have been line drying from the balcony for 15 years in our previous house, where I never had issues with tics. In this new house I also line dry on the balcony and had tics twice. According to my colleagues I need to shake the laundry really well when taking inside. I will focus on that the next summer. In the winter I use the tumble dry. I could also use the foldable drying rack and maybe I should focus on using that more often. With the current washing machine with a large capacity the rack if easily overfull.

Uturn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4302 on: January 15, 2018, 07:14:38 AM »
I was having dinner with Mom yesterday, and she mentioned that I should get a dog. 

Me: (chuckle) No, I plan on retiring in 3-5 years and want to be nomadic and a dog does not fit those plans.
Mom: What!?  But you're not even in your 50's yet, how can you retire?
Me:  Remember all those years that you called me a cheapskate because I don't have new cars and fancy gadgets?  I was buying a portfolio instead.
Mom:  I don't understand why you denied yourself a nice life just so that you can sit around the house so early in life.

Rubic

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4303 on: January 15, 2018, 07:22:21 AM »
ETA: Is it really that bad to be concerned about your family's finances? It's not like I can force them to change, anyway, if they really don't want to, but especially with the alcohol, it'd be better for their health too to cut back there. I want to help them have more money if I can because I think it'd make my mum especially happier if she didn't have to work as long. And all of us help with my dad's business.

Flip the script and imagine it's your mum nagging you because you're
not married, or don't have children, or don't live in a nice house.  Nobody
wants unsolicited advice, especially not a parent.

Both my parents were chain smokers for 20+ years, and me pointing out
the health hazards wouldn't have made any difference, and would probably
have harmed our relationship.  Fortunately they both quit soon after my
grandfather (a physician!) died of lung cancer in his early 60's.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4304 on: January 15, 2018, 07:40:04 AM »
I was having dinner with Mom yesterday, and she mentioned that I should get a dog. 

Me: (chuckle) No, I plan on retiring in 3-5 years and want to be nomadic and a dog does not fit those plans.
Mom: What!?  But you're not even in your 50's yet, how can you retire?
Me:  Remember all those years that you called me a cheapskate because I don't have new cars and fancy gadgets?  I was buying a portfolio instead.
Mom:  I don't understand why you denied yourself a nice life just so that you can sit around the house so early in life.
Did she somehow misunderstand the word "nomadic"?

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4305 on: January 15, 2018, 07:45:58 AM »
I was having dinner with Mom yesterday, and she mentioned that I should get a dog. 

Me: (chuckle) No, I plan on retiring in 3-5 years and want to be nomadic and a dog does not fit those plans.
Mom: What!?  But you're not even in your 50's yet, how can you retire?
Me:  Remember all those years that you called me a cheapskate because I don't have new cars and fancy gadgets?  I was buying a portfolio instead.
Mom:  I don't understand why you denied yourself a nice life just so that you can sit around the house so early in life.

Isn't it maddening that people just won't listen?  Or can't connect the dots because of pre-conceived notions in their heads?

I mean, you just said you're going to be nomadic, which is about as far from "just sit around the house" as you can get!


MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4306 on: January 15, 2018, 10:00:16 AM »
I was having dinner with Mom yesterday, and she mentioned that I should get a dog. 

Me: (chuckle) No, I plan on retiring in 3-5 years and want to be nomadic and a dog does not fit those plans.
Mom: What!?  But you're not even in your 50's yet, how can you retire?
Me:  Remember all those years that you called me a cheapskate because I don't have new cars and fancy gadgets?  I was buying a portfolio instead.
Mom:  I don't understand why you denied yourself a nice life just so that you can sit around the house so early in life.

Isn't it maddening that people just won't listen?  Or can't connect the dots because of pre-conceived notions in their heads?

I mean, you just said you're going to be nomadic, which is about as far from "just sit around the house" as you can get!

Well that is the impression most people have of retired people. This is largely due to having known people that are retired and do just sit around the house. This is a concern I have about my dad as he's toying with retiring but doesn't have a life. I fear he'll just sleep and watch TV all day.

Uturn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4307 on: January 15, 2018, 11:59:44 AM »
I was having dinner with Mom yesterday, and she mentioned that I should get a dog. 

Me: (chuckle) No, I plan on retiring in 3-5 years and want to be nomadic and a dog does not fit those plans.
Mom: What!?  But you're not even in your 50's yet, how can you retire?
Me:  Remember all those years that you called me a cheapskate because I don't have new cars and fancy gadgets?  I was buying a portfolio instead.
Mom:  I don't understand why you denied yourself a nice life just so that you can sit around the house so early in life.

Isn't it maddening that people just won't listen?  Or can't connect the dots because of pre-conceived notions in their heads?

I mean, you just said you're going to be nomadic, which is about as far from "just sit around the house" as you can get!

Well that is the impression most people have of retired people. This is largely due to having known people that are retired and do just sit around the house. This is a concern I have about my dad as he's toying with retiring but doesn't have a life. I fear he'll just sleep and watch TV all day.

When Dad retired, he took various jobs, mostly to keep busy.  He drove a schoolbus for a while, delivered parts for a local car dealer, did tractor work.  He stayed busy until Leukemia took him.  Mom retired and found a recliner and Fox News.

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4308 on: January 15, 2018, 12:54:28 PM »
When Dad retired, he took various jobs, mostly to keep busy.  He drove a schoolbus for a while, delivered parts for a local car dealer, did tractor work.  He stayed busy until Leukemia took him.  Mom retired and found a recliner and Fox News.

This sounds like my grandfather.

He sold his business and "retired" then drove school buses for a few years, delivered cars for a local dealership, visited his brothers to lend a hand every time they were harvesting or shearing, then got sick of watching his business decline so he bought it back and worked another 10 years.

He's now 86 and on his second go at retirement, spending lots of time on the water in his boat and having dinner with one of his children or grandchildren every night. He will never be one to just sit home.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4309 on: January 15, 2018, 01:05:37 PM »
ETA: Is it really that bad to be concerned about your family's finances? It's not like I can force them to change, anyway, if they really don't want to, but especially with the alcohol, it'd be better for their health too to cut back there. I want to help them have more money if I can because I think it'd make my mum especially happier if she didn't have to work as long. And all of us help with my dad's business.

Flip the script and imagine it's your mum nagging you because you're
not married, or don't have children, or don't live in a nice house.  Nobody
wants unsolicited advice, especially not a parent.

Both my parents were chain smokers for 20+ years, and me pointing out
the health hazards wouldn't have made any difference, and would probably
have harmed our relationship.  Fortunately they both quit soon after my
grandfather (a physician!) died of lung cancer in his early 60's.

I agree - nothing worse than unsolicited advice from a relative.  It would be different if your mum told you that they were about the lose the house and asked for your advice re saving money.  But it doesn't sound like she is doing that.  Also, even though you and your brother are paying board, having your adult children still living with you must be grating at times.  The way I see it, once you strike out on your own and run your own household then you can do it any way you like.  Until then, you've chosen to live in your parents' household and they can run things their way.

TomTX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4310 on: January 15, 2018, 07:52:14 PM »
I beg to differ on the dryer issue. My former boss had his electricity bill go up about $200 in a qtr maybe more. I can't remember the exact numbers. He discovered his wife had started using the dryer for every load of washing. Nothing else had changed.

Erm, is their vent totally clogged with lint? Does the wife just set the dryer for max time/temp and walk away?

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4311 on: January 16, 2018, 06:46:09 AM »
My mum is an intelligent woman and works as a Certified Financial Planner. 3 years ago, my fiance and I bought a cheap house that was in need of some TLC, which is why it was cheap. We've done quite a lot of work already and right now, we are almost done with the upstairs bathroom. Tomorrow the plumber will arrive to connect the new toilet (we didn't have one upstairs) and then it's done. I was excited about that and told my mum on the phone. Then she asked me what we still need to do, as she lives in a different city and doesn't visit a lot. We only have the kitchen and the (small) garden left, so we're nearly done.

Then she proceeded to tell me how it would be much better if we sold the home and bought another home that was already done up by someone else, so we didn't have to do "all that work". Well, first of all, we're nearly done. There's only about €10.000 of work left to do and in the short term, they're not necessary but cosmetic repairs. Secondly, we're in the middle of a huge housing boom, so it's generally a bad time to sell a cheap house and buy an expensive house. With her professional background, this is the most stupid advice she could possibly give. Thirdly, buying a comparable home completely fixed up by someone else could all in all cost us around €100.000 - house prices are at an all-time high and there are high additional costs to buying a house. And I didn't even include higher property taxes etc. Even when we would "just get a mortgage" that's a pretty huge waste of money for a house in the same neighbourhood with a more shiny kitchen, a fashionable floor and matching curtains throughout the house.

I told her this, and I don't want to get into an argument, but it really annoys me that someone with her education and professional background would dish out such stupid advice in their private life. I know she's good at her job and she would never recommend this to a client. She just keeps nagging about this because she just wants us to live in a different type of house and be different people. She feels like since we've doubled our income since we've bought this house, we should find a house that reflects our current level of wealth. She feels our house is a bit small at 800 square ft (3 bedrooms for 2 people, feels more than big enough for me) and I guess because she hopes she'll get grandchildren after all if we just have more bedrooms. She is very much aware that having children is not medically an option for us right now, but she brings it up all the time. She doesn't visit often, but when she does, she's always trying to get us out of the house to go shopping or to go to restaurants. She never does that when we visit her. It's like she hates being in this house at all, and it's not just me who thinks that. She sat next to my friend at my birthday and my friend later vented to my fiance about how much of a snob she thought my mum was ... (my friend is very polite and would never tell me, but my fiance told me).

I have tried to talk to her about this, but it's difficult because she just denies it. I try to ignore it when she says things like this, but it makes my blood boil. I just don't really get it because I wasn't raised like that and my mum has always lead a pretty simple life herself. She did move to another city when we were adults and she's in a different social circle now, full of people much wealthier than she is. Maybe they're a bit of a bad influence.

jinga nation

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4312 on: January 16, 2018, 07:24:42 AM »
@Imma How did your mother get the spending mentality of Americans? I thought Europe was much more financially conservative.

My wife is a CPA, qualified to practice in both the UK and USA. She says that co-workers in London were much more financially astute about investing their own money and looking for ways to reduce taxable income via various investments. However, it's a different story in the US, where many of her fellow CPAs love spending every dollar on their large houses, new cars, constant drinking and parties. We're talking 25-50 year olds, some even older. Many don't even put more than the minimum few percent in the 401(K) or IRA. There's only a couple of savvy ones, who are modest in their ways.

I have a friend who works at TD Ameritrade supporting individual investor accounts, customer-facing role. But she spends every penny partying, living like there's no tomorrow.

Just because they are financial professionals doesn't mean they know how to save and invest for themselves.

kaypinkHH

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4313 on: January 16, 2018, 07:46:25 AM »
@Imma I am in a very similar boat to you! We sold a house in a HCOL area, and could "afford" a much nicer house in the lower COL city we moved to. We decided to buy an older home with a rental unit attached, or a house that has renos to be done. My parents did not love this plan. During the house hunt process they kept sending us recommendations for completely "finished" homes, but either at the top of our budget, or in neighbourhoods we weren't interested in. Finally we did end up buying a house with a rental unit, and I can tell they are still not impressed with that decision. They justified their opinions as  "well it isn't what we would be looking for now"...maybe your mom has an issue with your house because she can't imagine living there...which is foolish, because she doesn't have to live there! Next time she brings up your house just calmly say, "Mom, we love our house, we aren't moving. We are super happy with our renos!"

Sometimes parents forget to look back to where they were at this age (give or take a few years). My mom and dad used a card table as a kitchen table for 5 years when I was a kid, but yet, for some reason I "MUST BUY" a fancy dining room table immediately.

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4314 on: January 16, 2018, 08:25:02 AM »
@Imma How did your mother get the spending mentality of Americans? I thought Europe was much more financially conservative.
[...] There's only a couple of savvy ones, who are modest in their ways.

Just because they are financial professionals doesn't mean they know how to save and invest for themselves.

I really don't know where she got that spending mentality. It's a new thing. My mum grew up in a very working class environment, she worked her way up, she taught us to budget and save money. Growing up she was super frugal, sewing all of our clothes and baking our bread. My parents had a very bad divorce when I was in in my early 20s and she ended up with practically nothing in a small one bedroom flat and her youngest kid still living at home with her. She was living so extremely frugal back then I actually gave her my old coat because she refused to buy a new one even though the zipper was broken and she was waiting in the cold for the bus to work every day. She saved up a lot of money to buy a nice house in a new city to start a new life there about 5 years ago. After that, she's changed so much I sometimes wonder who she is. Her new friends generally come from money and at around 60, most have received their full inheritances and have a lot of money. My mum isn't wealthy, but she's taken good care of herself in the past. She's close to 60, I know if she quit working today she has enough to live on until her pension and social security kicks in at 66.

She's still not spending a huge amount of money on herself compared to some people in this thread - she spends a lot on food and wine and eating in fancy restaurants and expensive clothes but not more than she can afford - but she's really pressuring us to spend money and judging others by how much money they spend. Because of her job, we're used to talking openly about money and she knows I save up for retirement, which she considers to be unneccessary 'at my stage in life'. I'm really happy that she goes on holiday every year, but I wish she would just shut up about my spending.

@kaypinkHH  When my parents were around 30 we lived in nearly exactly the same type of house in the same type of neighbourhood. Maybe she doesn't want to remember?

LadyMuMu

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4315 on: January 16, 2018, 08:46:46 AM »
We have a lower income and standard of living than both sets of my parents and it is REALLY difficult for them to accept at times. This in great part due to conscious choices we've made. My DH is an academic but could earn 3x as much in industry. I choose to stay home and run the domestic/financial part of our household with a little contract work on the side. If we were maxing out our educations and opportunities with other life choices, we'd be earning about 5-4x as much but would have a MUCH different lifestyle of work/life balance--one that more closely resembles their own.

I think it disrupts the typical American ideal that success means doing better than your parents. I think it is also feels like a rebuke of their own life choices at times--particularly not being as involved in our day-to-day lives when we were kids (nannies, summer-long camps, boarding schools). Most of all, I think they think of themselves as "middle class" even though they are wealthy. Heck, even we are upper middle class by income standards. So their self-narrative is disrupted that they are "ordinary" people.

mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4316 on: January 16, 2018, 11:29:48 AM »
Pretty minor one from me: My parents are absolutely not the worst spenders, but they still have obvious inefficiencies to my eyes. Anyway, I made a comment about how much my mum uses the tumble drier - which is too much, when we have an indoor drying rack (which apparently "takes up too much space" even though it's out all the time whether we're using it or not?!) and an outdoor washing line  (which we can use in the warmer half of the year) - and how it might save money on the electricity bill if we cut back. And she said, "Never mind saving, what about earning more?"

Also, I calculated that my dad drinks £1000 a year of beer and/or wine, at least. Yes, I know he enjoys it. But that's not that far off a particularly frugal budget for all other food for one person for a year.
My wine budget is probably pretty close to that a year.

I don't drink all of it - for Christmas I gave away 5 bottles, and I also take the majority of the wine to parties and get-togethers.

mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4317 on: January 16, 2018, 11:33:39 AM »
It's just like electric bikes: they are a terrible choice if you're healthy and fit and ride a regular bike frequently, but if you're driving everywhere and not getting any exercise, an electric bike is a massive improvement.

Yeah,  I am going to call BS on that one.    My guess is that you have not owned an electric bike or you live where it is flat.  Most cyclists I knew looked down on them at the time (circa 2002/2003 here).

Once upon a time, I was a cyclist part time (to work), and when I got an electric kit, my frequency and distance traveled tripled... versus taking DH's car or the bus.
+1

I don't have an electric bike, but my neighbor up the street does.

We live on a big hill.  She has 2 kids.  Doesn't drive.  The neighborhood isn't particularly walkable - not horrible, but it's a little over a mile over a really big hill to get to the nearest grocery store.

The electric bike made a HUGE improvement in her life.  Before that, she and her husband were basically looking to move to a more walk able neighborhood.  AND she's in her late 50s and very very fit.  Because she doesn't drive, she pretty much walked EVERYWHERE.   But getting the kids from school at the end of the day got much better with the bike.  Sometimes she makes the round trip 2-3 times a day, and it's a big hill.

max9505672

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4318 on: January 17, 2018, 07:33:54 AM »
It's just like electric bikes: they are a terrible choice if you're healthy and fit and ride a regular bike frequently, but if you're driving everywhere and not getting any exercise, an electric bike is a massive improvement.
Electric bikes are great if you have long distances and/or mountainous terrain, independently of how fit you are.

For example, it would take me 1h15 hour to go to work by bike. While not impossible, I wouldn't bike 3h30 hours/day even if I consider myself fit, it's just too much time at the end of the day. I do it sometimes, but not everyday.

With my electric bike, it takes roughly 30 minutes. Still a good physical exercise and much more viable on a daily basis.

londonstache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4319 on: January 17, 2018, 09:14:04 AM »
@Imma How did your mother get the spending mentality of Americans? I thought Europe was much more financially conservative.

@jinga nation alas, I think we're rapidly closing the gap on Americans. You still see some financially conservative decisions, but at least here in the UK they are fairly rare. For example in the UK 10 years ago most people paid cash for a car, leased it or got a traditional loan - where you owned the asset outright at the end. Now most people get a PCP payment plan (82% of sales are now these), which typically looks like paying less now in most cases for no ownership in the future. I also find the state of preparation for retirement also entirely horrific.

snapperdude

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4320 on: January 17, 2018, 06:23:15 PM »
@Imma How did your mother get the spending mentality of Americans? I thought Europe was much more financially conservative.
[...] There's only a couple of savvy ones, who are modest in their ways.

Just because they are financial professionals doesn't mean they know how to save and invest for themselves.

I really don't know where she got that spending mentality. It's a new thing. My mum grew up in a very working class environment, she worked her way up, she taught us to budget and save money. Growing up she was super frugal, sewing all of our clothes and baking our bread. My parents had a very bad divorce when I was in in my early 20s and she ended up with practically nothing in a small one bedroom flat and her youngest kid still living at home with her. She was living so extremely frugal back then I actually gave her my old coat because she refused to buy a new one even though the zipper was broken and she was waiting in the cold for the bus to work every day. She saved up a lot of money to buy a nice house in a new city to start a new life there about 5 years ago. After that, she's changed so much I sometimes wonder who she is. Her new friends generally come from money and at around 60, most have received their full inheritances and have a lot of money. My mum isn't wealthy, but she's taken good care of herself in the past. She's close to 60, I know if she quit working today she has enough to live on until her pension and social security kicks in at 66.

She's still not spending a huge amount of money on herself compared to some people in this thread - she spends a lot on food and wine and eating in fancy restaurants and expensive clothes but not more than she can afford - but she's really pressuring us to spend money and judging others by how much money they spend. Because of her job, we're used to talking openly about money and she knows I save up for retirement, which she considers to be unneccessary 'at my stage in life'. I'm really happy that she goes on holiday every year, but I wish she would just shut up about my spending.

@kaypinkHH  When my parents were around 30 we lived in nearly exactly the same type of house in the same type of neighbourhood. Maybe she doesn't want to remember?

Perhaps she is feeling pressure to keep up with her new friends when they discuss the lifestyles of their children. She wants you to spend your money so she can tell her friends about how "well" you are doing.

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4321 on: January 18, 2018, 02:38:55 AM »
She could brag about how her daughter has a savings rate of over 50%! But I guess that's not as cool as a 5 bedroom home.

UKMustache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4322 on: January 18, 2018, 02:56:57 AM »
@jinga nation alas, I think we're rapidly closing the gap on Americans. You still see some financially conservative decisions, but at least here in the UK they are fairly rare. For example in the UK 10 years ago most people paid cash for a car, leased it or got a traditional loan - where you owned the asset outright at the end. Now most people get a PCP payment plan (82% of sales are now these), which typically looks like paying less now in most cases for no ownership in the future. I also find the state of preparation for retirement also entirely horrific.
[/quote]

Have you seen the latest update to 'autotrader', you can now search by how much you want to pay per month.

*facepalm*

jinga nation

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4323 on: January 18, 2018, 08:23:54 AM »
@UKMustache I tend to think of the British and Europeans as two separate identities. I have come to the UK several times, have plenty of 2nd cousins and in-laws there. I know y'all love to spend the almighty quids like there ain't no tomorrow, especially at the nearest Weatherspoon's chain pub. Or Kebabish.

Maybe I was stupidly under the impression that northern Europe was much more frugal and savvy. But then like Old Mother Europe, there's a lot of facades, buildings and personal and financial.

And now that Carilion's collapsed, how's it affecting those near and dear to you?

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4324 on: January 18, 2018, 09:55:11 AM »
Canadians used to be considered more financially conservative than Americans.  Our banking system is still more conservative, but our savings rate is pathetic.  And our merchants are adopting all the American tactics - lots of advertising, "Black Friday" (how silly, not a holiday for us), pre-Christmas sales, etc..

UKMustache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4325 on: January 18, 2018, 10:40:52 AM »
@UKMustache I tend to think of the British and Europeans as two separate identities. I have come to the UK several times, have plenty of 2nd cousins and in-laws there. I know y'all love to spend the almighty quids like there ain't no tomorrow, especially at the nearest Weatherspoon's chain pub. Or Kebabish.

Maybe I was stupidly under the impression that northern Europe was much more frugal and savvy. But then like Old Mother Europe, there's a lot of facades, buildings and personal and financial.

And now that Carilion's collapsed, how's it affecting those near and dear to you?

Unfortunately just over half the UK agreed with you not too long ago, so it's not long before we are two separate identities.

It's too early to say what the impact of Carillion will be, I believe many of the projects are being taken in house by other parties so the damage could be largely mitigated.  Here's hoping anyway, I could do with another 12 months before we see trigger a correction!

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4326 on: January 18, 2018, 10:58:23 AM »
@UKMustache I tend to think of the British and Europeans as two separate identities. I have come to the UK several times, have plenty of 2nd cousins and in-laws there. I know y'all love to spend the almighty quids like there ain't no tomorrow, especially at the nearest Weatherspoon's chain pub. Or Kebabish.

Maybe I was stupidly under the impression that northern Europe was much more frugal and savvy. But then like Old Mother Europe, there's a lot of facades, buildings and personal and financial.


My mother used to work in the UK and she always said that on the continent we're 10 years behind on the UK, and the UK's 25 years behind on the USA when it comes to financial matters. I do think that shopping and eating out are a lot less common in here than in the US, and so is spending money on 'flashy' things. Because of the strict calvinist heritage in north/west Europe, borrowing money and spending on decadent things used to be heavily frowned upon. It's now a little bit more acceptable because of celebrity culture, but most people still wear jeans and a t-shirt, most women don't have fake nails, fake tan, whitened teeth or have their hair blow dried. This seems to be a LOT more common in the UK.

Household debts are generally very high in western Europe, that's mainly because land is insanely expensive and prices go up most of the time and never go down a lot, land is just very scarce. People have very high mortgages because that's the only way you can buy a house and it varies from country to country whether deposits are required. In my own country (the NL) the government has new strict rules for mortgages. A (small) deposit is now mandatory.

While I support the regulation of the financial industry, it has led to unintended consequences. Because the regulated formal banking sector is now so strict, people turn to the unregulated part of the market. 100% interest only mortgages have been outlawed and any existing loans are now taken into account when you apply for a mortgage. I think any existing loan is actually weighed 150%, so if you have a loan for originally 10.000, the lender has to subtract 15.000 or something from your max. mortgage even if the actual balance of the loan is now only 2000.

People used to pay cash for things like cars, but they have less disposable income now because they have to pay off the mortgage. Taking out a regular loan from the bank for a car is unwise for people who want to buy a home or refinance, so instead they will lease a car because the lease payments are not a loan and not taken into account for a mortgage. Leasing is very expensive compared to buying or even a loan, and you end up with nothing. Lease companies are almost completely unregulated. So these laws basically just shift loans from the responsible, regulated sector to the irresponsible loan shark business.

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4327 on: January 18, 2018, 11:09:30 AM »
@UKMustache I tend to think of the British and Europeans as two separate identities. I have come to the UK several times, have plenty of 2nd cousins and in-laws there. I know y'all love to spend the almighty quids like there ain't no tomorrow, especially at the nearest Weatherspoon's chain pub. Or Kebabish.

Maybe I was stupidly under the impression that northern Europe was much more frugal and savvy. But then like Old Mother Europe, there's a lot of facades, buildings and personal and financial.

And now that Carilion's collapsed, how's it affecting those near and dear to you?

Unfortunately just over half the UK agreed with you not too long ago, so it's not long before we are two separate identities.


This Brexit thing is definitely becoming a bigger disaster by the day. We do a lot of business with the UK and this uncertainty isn't doing anyone any good. And let's not even talk about exchange rates. There are strong regional identities but I believe they can exist within the structure of Europe. In the end I think there's a lot more (both culturally and economically) that connects us Europeans to each other than what divides us.

BTDretire

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4328 on: January 18, 2018, 11:12:05 AM »
I have tried to talk to her about this, but it's difficult because she just denies it. I try to ignore it when she says things like this, but it makes my blood boil. I just don't really get it because I wasn't raised like that and my mum has always lead a pretty simple life herself. She did move to another city when we were adults and she's in a different social circle now, full of people much wealthier than she is. Maybe they're a bit of a bad influence.

 We have an unwritten but getting to be a well worn rule in our home, it is better to have others waste their energy being mad at us then to waste our energy being at them. It is mostly used with family members.


  I won't give much detail: arrgh, the more I wrote the more detail I gave, so here are the details. The 'family' wanted us to sponsor another part of the family consisting 4 members into the states. Because our life was very busy owning our own business (plus I'm retiring) and knowing how little help the family is to the family, we opted out and would not do this. There was much discussion and even hand written letters begging. But NO!

 I told one family member that everyone in the family relies on my wife to do way to many things now, (she speaks the best English and they use their lack, as an excuse), if we did what you are asking, we would not have time to run our business, because there would be no help from the family.
 This was passed to other family members and pissed everyone off.

 When  a family is sponsored, you need to take care of everything from housing, food, doctor, dentist, car, insurance, school, documents, money, etc. So No! It was quiet year with the family mad at us, but then more and more contact was made. (I enjoyed the time off as did my wife, for a while)
  Then out of the blue with zero mention, 1 member of this family shows up, he is accepted to at an out of state school. This family member is going to spend three weeks at the sponsors house before school starts. Everyday my wife gets a call with all the complaints about the lazy do nothing young man, how he is afraid of the dark and leaves the lights on all night, how he won't clean up after dinner, how he demands a fresh towel everyday, won't eat the meal they cook, needs something else cooked, how he spends all day on his phone playing video games, and much more. A week of daily complaints!
  At the end of the first week the husband of the sponsoring pair came over and I see he is having a very animated conversation with my wife in their native language. I usually ignore most of what is going on, but after he left I ask my wife what that was about. She got a grin 1/2 mile wide and said, he apologized for the whole year of being mad at us and how he now understands what he was asking us to do.
  The next two weeks there are several attempts to get other family members to pitch in and help pay for the the young man's rent, food money and school tuition, also several attempts to get other family to take in the young man for a few days, this never happens, as I said no one wants to help.
 By the end of the 3 weeks they are trying to find ways to send him back to the home country. He is now at school, but I wonder how much support they will give him.
  I have pointed out to my wife how unfair it is for them to commit to this and then within 3 weeks decide they don't want to. She agrees but has made it clear she does not want to hear anymore about it from her family.

  I have this desire to tell them they did nothing compared to, bringing the whole family, but I won't do it.

 Also during this first week, the sponsor, my wife's sister, tried to point out SHE was the only one that could have sponsored the young man, because she had $40,000 in the bank to prove she could handle the responsibility. My wife held her tongue and didn't point out we have savings to generate over $75,000 every year for the rest of our lives.

  The apology was, as they say, priceless!

 I might add, now the relatives do get it!


mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4329 on: January 18, 2018, 02:02:07 PM »
I have tried to talk to her about this, but it's difficult because she just denies it. I try to ignore it when she says things like this, but it makes my blood boil. I just don't really get it because I wasn't raised like that and my mum has always lead a pretty simple life herself. She did move to another city when we were adults and she's in a different social circle now, full of people much wealthier than she is. Maybe they're a bit of a bad influence.

 We have an unwritten but getting to be a well worn rule in our home, it is better to have others waste their energy being mad at us then to waste our energy being at them. It is mostly used with family members.

snip

 
  The apology was, as they say, priceless!

 I might add, now the relatives do get it!

That was amazing.  And fascinating. I've just recently begun to realize issues with foreigners sometimes, by reading blogs.  I didn't realize that some countries the teenagers are so accustomed to servants that they don't actually know how to hang up a towel so it dries (and reuse it), and take basic care of themselves.

Most of my experience with teens from other countries (and even then, not direct experience, just via family) is Denmark.  Not all countries are the same!

BTDretire

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4330 on: January 18, 2018, 04:26:27 PM »
I have tried to talk to her about this, but it's difficult because she just denies it. I try to ignore it when she says things like this, but it makes my blood boil. I just don't really get it because I wasn't raised like that and my mum has always lead a pretty simple life herself. She did move to another city when we were adults and she's in a different social circle now, full of people much wealthier than she is. Maybe they're a bit of a bad influence.

 We have an unwritten but getting to be a well worn rule in our home, it is better to have others waste their energy being mad at us then to waste our energy being at them. It is mostly used with family members.

snip

 
  The apology was, as they say, priceless!

 I might add, now the relatives do get it!

That was amazing.  And fascinating. I've just recently begun to realize issues with foreigners sometimes, by reading blogs.
There is so much more gossip I could tell.
Quote
  I didn't realize that some countries the teenagers are so accustomed to servants that they don't actually know how to hang up a towel so it dries (and reuse it), and take basic care of themselves.
The boy's mother did everything for him, even took care of a chamber pot so he didn't need to walk downstairs to use the bathroom.
Quote
Most of my experience with teens from other countries (and even then, not direct experience, just via family) is Denmark.  Not all countries are the same!
This culture pushes their children very hard to excel, if they don't excel as the parents say, it brings shame to the parents. My wife is still pushing our 26 your old daughter even though she graduated with a minor and major 1yr+ early from a university and is 1 semester before she gets a Masters. But it is never enough.
 I'm very proud of my daughter and she knows it, she's a wonderful strong young lady, she gets a lot of that strength from her mother. When she does certain things, I'll tease, just like your mother, She'll say,
"I'm not like my mother!"  :-)
On the plus side, my wife's attitude and tenacity is also why we are FI.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4331 on: January 19, 2018, 01:18:24 AM »
I have tried to talk to her about this, but it's difficult because she just denies it. I try to ignore it when she says things like this, but it makes my blood boil. I just don't really get it because I wasn't raised like that and my mum has always lead a pretty simple life herself. She did move to another city when we were adults and she's in a different social circle now, full of people much wealthier than she is. Maybe they're a bit of a bad influence.

 We have an unwritten but getting to be a well worn rule in our home, it is better to have others waste their energy being mad at us then to waste our energy being at them. It is mostly used with family members.

snip

 
  The apology was, as they say, priceless!

 I might add, now the relatives do get it!

That was amazing.  And fascinating. I've just recently begun to realize issues with foreigners sometimes, by reading blogs.  I didn't realize that some countries the teenagers are so accustomed to servants that they don't actually know how to hang up a towel so it dries (and reuse it), and take basic care of themselves.

Most of my experience with teens from other countries (and even then, not direct experience, just via family) is Denmark.  Not all countries are the same!

Fascinating for sure!  Thanks for sharing, BTDretire.

With This Herring

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4332 on: January 19, 2018, 06:22:04 PM »
*snip*
 By the end of the 3 weeks they are trying to find ways to send him back to the home country. He is now at school, but I wonder how much support they will give him.
  I have pointed out to my wife how unfair it is for them to commit to this and then within 3 weeks decide they don't want to. She agrees but has made it clear she does not want to hear anymore about it from her family.
*snip*

In my (uninformed) opinion, they committed to sponsoring an semi-adult, not to spoon-feeding a baby, so I wouldn't blame them for trying to get out of it now. 

But man, what a story!  A chamber pot!

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4333 on: January 20, 2018, 08:17:19 AM »
*snip*
 By the end of the 3 weeks they are trying to find ways to send him back to the home country. He is now at school, but I wonder how much support they will give him.
  I have pointed out to my wife how unfair it is for them to commit to this and then within 3 weeks decide they don't want to. She agrees but has made it clear she does not want to hear anymore about it from her family.
*snip*

In my (uninformed) opinion, they committed to sponsoring an semi-adult, not to spoon-feeding a baby, so I wouldn't blame them for trying to get out of it now. 

But man, what a story!  A chamber pot!

Yes - that is completely amazing to imagine the mother dealing with a chamber pot.  Yikes.  Now I kind of want to know what country they are from.  I'm really curious.

For the Europe and frugality discussion above - one of my pet peeves is people making generalizations about Europe.  I live in one of the original member states of the European Union (Italy) and almost everything is completely different here from, say, Germany- from weather, to food, to language, to attitudes towards money and this is Western Europe.  There is also the whole of Eastern Europe which is also very different. 

Anyway, Italians have traditionally been very fiscally responsible.  Personal savings rates are very high, home ownership is high and salaries are low. People grow their own veggies, can stuff and live in tiny spaces with extended family. Things kind of changed to some extent during the boom years of the 80s but now with the crisis and stagnation people have had to go back to the old ways to some extent.  I tend to hang out with not so wealthy people though and our kids go to a heavily immigrant school so obviously things would be different in a posher area.  Our friends drive ancient, tiny cars, holidays are at the ancestral village down south staying with family where they also stock up on homemade canned tomatoes, olive oil and wine, they live in tiny apartments and only move out of their parents home at a very advanced age. Italians also have an extremely low birth rate and tend to have either 0 or 1 kid.  Here it's not so much a choice as a necessity as salaries are so low generally speaking.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4334 on: January 20, 2018, 08:24:35 AM »
Relatives had a very small greenhouse filled with exotic flowers. The flowers were warm and toasty (like 85 degrees) while the children and wife had barely any heat in the house. Would run out of oil for the house heat but always had heat for the flowers. This was only a hobby and no income was made from flowers.

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4335 on: January 20, 2018, 09:40:02 AM »
There are indeed huge differences between European countries. I have lived only in the north and west, the mostly protestant countries. That's where my experience comes from. Things are different in eastern en southern Europe. Obviously first of all because the northern and western countries are a lot wealthier than the southern and eastern countries. I also think the difference in religion (protestant vs. catholic / orthodox) plays a major role.

Still, I do believe there's a lot more that unites Europe rather than what divides us. I work in international trade and it's very easy to deal with other Europeans - and we have customers and suppliers all across Europe. It takes a lot more effort / intercultural communication skills to deal with Americans, Asians or people from the Middle East.

iris lily

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4336 on: January 20, 2018, 10:29:40 AM »
Relatives had a very small greenhouse filled with exotic flowers. The flowers were warm and toasty (like 85 degrees) while the children and wife had barely any heat in the house. Would run out of oil for the house heat but always had heat for the flowers. This was only a hobby and no income was made from flowers.

I feel compelled to report this prejudicial post against innocent flowers. It is not their fault they cant generate income, they are blameless! There is nothing wrong with giving the  flowers in the house more attention and resources than the humans. Really, seek treatment for your Anthophobia.


KIDDING!  :)

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4337 on: January 20, 2018, 11:00:10 AM »
Relatives had a very small greenhouse filled with exotic flowers. The flowers were warm and toasty (like 85 degrees) while the children and wife had barely any heat in the house. Would run out of oil for the house heat but always had heat for the flowers. This was only a hobby and no income was made from flowers.

What about the husband?  Did he just sit in the greenhouse with the flowers while the wife and kids shivered in the main house?


Roadrunner53

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4338 on: January 20, 2018, 03:32:08 PM »
He doted on the flowers by watering, plucking off dead leaves and planting other junk. He had a hobo wallet and a rich mans hobby. He grew orchids and many varieties. I thought it was beyond STUPID! Granted the flowers were pretty but a STUPID hobby for someone who couldn't afford it. Plus, to make his family suffer freezing in the house while the plants had so much heat was ridiculous. His house needed repair too. He was a selfish pig and everything was all about him.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4339 on: January 21, 2018, 01:11:44 PM »
He doted on the flowers by watering, plucking off dead leaves and planting other junk. He had a hobo wallet and a rich mans hobby. He grew orchids and many varieties. I thought it was beyond STUPID! Granted the flowers were pretty but a STUPID hobby for someone who couldn't afford it. Plus, to make his family suffer freezing in the house while the plants had so much heat was ridiculous. His house needed repair too. He was a selfish pig and everything was all about him.

In a perfect world, his wife would divorce him, get primary custody of the kids AND the house. Including the greenhouse. Then she could proceed to sell the house to someone who doesn't care about flowers and ex-husband could watch from a distance as the greenhouse was demolished.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4340 on: January 21, 2018, 03:08:19 PM »
Our friends drive ancient, tiny cars, holidays are at the ancestral village down south staying with family where they also stock up on homemade canned tomatoes, olive oil and wine, they live in tiny apartments and only move out of their parents home at a very advanced age.

I know that you're talking about a lifestyle imposed by financial limitation rather than choice, but holidays in southern Italy in villages where tomatoes, olives and grapes are grown sound absolutely perfect to this chilly, gardening obsessed Canadian!

I doubt many non-Italians would deal very well with a month spent picking and canning a million tomatoes in oppressive heat in a non air conditioned 2-3 room house with their entire extended family who hate each other (obviously, not everyone's family hates each other but several of my Italian friends are in this situation each summer.  No matter how great the tomato sauce tastes, this is so not how I want to spend my summer vacations.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4341 on: January 21, 2018, 03:28:07 PM »
Sibley, Hahaha, that would have been great to see the green house demolished! Unfortunately wife would have never divorced him. She was a doormat. He was a monster who used her first son who was born before they married as his personal slave. He made him pluck weeds all day long in the summer while the other kids were playing baseball. He wouldn't take the kid to any sports that he adored. If he wanted to play he had to walk or bike home probably 7 miles each way on a busy road. The mother never drove. Typical 1950's household. The man also had anger problems and if he didn't like his dinner, he would toss the plate with food on it across the room and it would smash on the wall. Yep, what a monster and if this kid was in a household like this today, they would have removed the kid and put him in foster care. The kid bought this jerk a Happy Father's Day mug from his paper route and the monster put a crappy mug in the paper bag and tossed it against the wall and broke it. The kid thought his mug was in the bag. This broke his heart forever. The monster thought it was FUNNY. What some kids go thru is just horrible.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4342 on: January 21, 2018, 11:15:53 PM »
Sibley, Hahaha, that would have been great to see the green house demolished! Unfortunately wife would have never divorced him. She was a doormat. He was a monster who used her first son who was born before they married as his personal slave. He made him pluck weeds all day long in the summer while the other kids were playing baseball. He wouldn't take the kid to any sports that he adored. If he wanted to play he had to walk or bike home probably 7 miles each way on a busy road. The mother never drove. Typical 1950's household. The man also had anger problems and if he didn't like his dinner, he would toss the plate with food on it across the room and it would smash on the wall. Yep, what a monster and if this kid was in a household like this today, they would have removed the kid and put him in foster care. The kid bought this jerk a Happy Father's Day mug from his paper route and the monster put a crappy mug in the paper bag and tossed it against the wall and broke it. The kid thought his mug was in the bag. This broke his heart forever. The monster thought it was FUNNY. What some kids go thru is just horrible.

Sounds like my broke-ass, monster brother.  A few weeks ago, he took my mom's cell phone and then, pretending to be her, texted me late at night saying that my brother (meaning himself) had slit his wrists.  He had not actually self-harmed.  He later told mom that he wanted me to suffer with feeling like I caused him to kill himself because I hadn't answered his phone calls that day, even though I did respond to his text message.  Anyhow, I guess this is a forum for disclosing bad money management, not lack of self-control and abuse.  So, I will add that at 30 years old, this guy was given $6k from my parents so that he could move across the country and work on his "dream."  He promptly spent ALL the money before he even reached the other side of the country and then asked to "borrow" money from me and my other brother.  We did give him a "last chance loan," which he amazingly did pay back a few years later.  The next few years involved more emotional/psychological coercion by him to "loan" him more money (only mom is the softy who gave more), and lots of mistreatment of his then-girlfriend.  Eventually, he couldn't manage staying there anymore, which is why he trekked back across the country last year to live with mom and leach off of her entirely.  She is still working full-time-plus hours in her 60s to support herself, meanwhile able-bodied man in his prime can't lift a finger and collected a very generous unemployment benefit till it just ran out.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 12:00:06 AM by LeRainDrop »

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4343 on: January 21, 2018, 11:27:51 PM »
Sounds like my broke-ass, monster brother.  A few weeks ago, he took my mom's cell phone and then, pretending to be her, texted me late at night saying that my brother (meaning himself) had slit his wrists...

That is horrific. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

Quote
... because I hadn't answered his phone calls that day, even though I did respond to his text message

I think he's beyond logic at this point.

londonstache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4344 on: January 22, 2018, 05:15:22 AM »

Because of the strict calvinist heritage in north/west Europe, borrowing money and spending on decadent things used to be heavily frowned upon. It's now a little bit more acceptable because of celebrity culture, but most people still wear jeans and a t-shirt, most women don't have fake nails, fake tan, whitened teeth or have their hair blow dried. This seems to be a LOT more common in the UK.

@Imma my wife (Mrs londonstache) is half Dutch and I'm working on the language currently. I'm of the opinion that the general Dutch approach I've seen so far of keep things simple, spend time outside and with family, be frugal etc. is a far better way of living. "Kijken, kijken, niet kopen"* is also our shopping philosophy!

*For the non-Dutch speaker, "Look, but don't buy"

Roadrunner53

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4345 on: January 22, 2018, 05:45:02 AM »


Eventually, he couldn't manage staying there anymore, which is why he trekked back across the country last year to live with mom and leach off of her entirely.  She is still working full-time-plus hours in her 60s to support herself, meanwhile able-bodied man in his prime can't lift a finger and collected a very generous unemployment benefit till it just ran out.
[/quote]

LeRainDrop, your brother sounds like a jerk to expect his mommy, at his age, to support him! So many parents are doing this. My neighbor has two sons, one around 21 and the other around 25. Both live at home rent free. They pay NOTHING! The only thing I think they pay for is food and they seem to eat a lot of fast food. The older kid works some seasonal summer work so he only works around 6-7 months and the other younger one who went to trade school to be a plumber can't be bothered to work as an apprentice so he can get his tradesman's license. He works off and on at various jobs then quits. He sells junk parts and has made the yard a messed up junkyard. These two are going nowhere. WHY, WHY, WHY don't these kids have any vision for the future? Do they see themselves living at home with daddy till they retire? Plus, wouldn't you think they would want to travel around the United States or the world? Guess not! No vision for anything. How do kids go to school for 12 years and end up like this?

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4346 on: January 22, 2018, 08:34:17 AM »
These kinds of children (men) who leach may be more common than we think. My coworker has a 20s yr old son like this and the family just seems to enable it. He's been in involved in drugs, etc. Family struggles to support him financially. In and out of rehab, changes jobs like the rest of us change clothes. Debt, problems and more problems.

I know a several more of these kinds of guys unable to launch into adulthood despite being halfway through their lives. Parents just keep footing the bill.

MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4347 on: January 22, 2018, 08:41:51 AM »
No matter how great the tomato sauce tastes, this is so not how I want to spend my summer vacations.

Yup, I recall a ton of childhood vacations revolving around spending time at various family members where I was essentially told to be visible but silent unless any of the uncles and aunts wanted to tell me how to live my life. Then I was expected to lap up whatever commands they gave and not say a word that could be considered against their advice.

My sister was organizing a cousin get together since we are all spread out over the country. She was planning to do it at a Mexican resort next Christmas. But the adults in the family found out and now it is a family reunion. I've already messaged her that I'm not going to go and she's responded by saying that she understands.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4348 on: January 22, 2018, 08:47:30 AM »
The father of these guys proposed that they start paying some of the utilities and the two of them had a hissy fit and 'threatened' to leave! Hahahha, then told the father all the places they could go and live for free! OMG, I would have told them to pack their bags and GO, GO, GO! This was several years ago and they are still there.

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4349 on: January 22, 2018, 09:55:20 AM »
By all means leave! Let me help you gather your things! I'll throw it to -errr, put it on the sidewalk for you (from a distance). ;)

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!