Relatives who just don't get it

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Also, part of it is that SIL is very touchy and would absolutely stop speaking with MIL for a year if MIL gave her even tiny consequences for her actions.

Based on the rest of what you've told us, I see no down-side to that.

[mustachepungoeshere]

Lady SA, your SiL is obviously batshit crazy and deserves a serious kick up the arse for her childish attitudes and for taking advantage of your MiL.

SIL spends her time cruising exotic locales, buying luxurious clothing (for her job, of course! Can't be seen performing in the same glittery/slinky/outrageous evening gown twice in one month!...

She's on a cruise ship. She would have a new audience every week or two!

[Lady SA]

Also, part of it is that SIL is very touchy and would absolutely stop speaking with MIL for a year if MIL gave her even tiny consequences for her actions.

Based on the rest of what you've told us, I see no down-side to that.

Lol I completely agree with that. I have her blocked myself and any communication goes exclusively through DH. He does a good job rebuffing her ridiculous requests because he sees right through her, but his mom just can't bring herself to see reality. She knows its a bad situation, but can't bring herself to enact logical consequences with SIL because she's afraid of getting cut off. Honestly, it wouldn't be much different if SIL did cut her off out of spite -- the only time MIL hears from SIL is when SIL needs help paying bills. But in MIL's mind, that is better than nothing. DH and I haven't been able to persuade her otherwise, unfortunately.

MIL is a classic enabler, no doubt about it. We've gotten her to the point of not sending SIL monetary gifts once we pointed out that they were already gifting her the not-shut-off phone and such. Slow but steady progress on that front, but I don't think I'll ever be able to convince her to fully financially cut off SIL.

[Lady SA]

SIL spends her time cruising exotic locales, buying luxurious clothing (for her job, of course! Can't be seen performing in the same glittery/slinky/outrageous evening gown twice in one month!...

She's on a cruise ship. She would have a new audience every week or two!

EXACTLY. The logic boggles the mind.

[Lady SA]

Oh, I forgot another juicy tidbit about SIL! She cycles through boyfriends, about two per year, usually other crew members on the cruises she takes. They always bail on her once they start getting glimpses of her incredibly poor money skills. Her last one had to file her tax extensions for her (once he found out in June, I think, that she hadn't filed taxes) and then was gone within a month. LOL

Good on those guys for dodging that bullet.

I'm of the opinion that the only dude who will put up with her bullshit will be someone who is equally appallingly bad at finances, and then that will be a shitshow of epic proportions.

[martyconlonontherun]

Friend 1 was talking to wife about friend 2 while I say in the back seat of the car. Her complaint was friend came from a wealthy family, no student loans and
 had a good job  so she had a judgy attitude how everyone should max out their 401k. Friend 1 went on a tangent on how unrealistic it was and that people in the real world have expenses they have to pay. Friend 1 makes about 90k a year and had less student loans loans than me. I make 65k, had massive student debt and known to waste money (random ali express purchases, travel a ton {I drive/crash at apartments of friends, but you can't tell that by the photos when I'm at an interesting location), etc)

After her going on to my wife for five-ten minutes on the subject and being so annoyed that friend 2 would make such an insane comment, I pipe in from the back "I plan on maxing out my 401k this year" and put my headphones back on.

She drives a brand new leased Rave4 after trading in her previous leased Rav4 that was less than a year old because she liked the new body style better and "Got a really, really good deal," has a pure breed talk that she spoils, renting a trendy apartment, and constantly had expensive food tasted. Totally different mindset and it makes it hard when we hang out since No, i would rather not spend $40/person on dinner tonight when I would rather cook us all a good meal for the price of one person.
 

[Step37]

SIL spends her time cruising exotic locales, buying luxurious clothing (for her job, of course! Can't be seen performing in the same glittery/slinky/outrageous evening gown twice in one month!...

She's on a cruise ship. She would have a new audience every week or two!

EXACTLY. The logic boggles the mind.

Jesus, what an inconsiderate, parasitic twit. The mind boggles. Hope your MIL wakes up soon, Lady SA. This would be very hard to watch.

[Feivel2000]

Only a small thing, but it is a gifted coffee mug from a relative who struggles to pay the bills on time.
It is a nice gesture and I love him , but I wish he would have his priorities in order...

[Snow]

SIL spends her time cruising exotic locales, buying luxurious clothing (for her job, of course! Can't be seen performing in the same glittery/slinky/outrageous evening gown twice in one month!...

She's on a cruise ship. She would have a new audience every week or two!

EXACTLY. The logic boggles the mind.

Jesus, what an inconsiderate, parasitic twit. The mind boggles. Hope your MIL wakes up soon, Lady SA. This would be very hard to watch.

Wow, just. Wow.

[fluffmuffin]

That SIL, Lady SA. Wow. Just...wow.

[Spiffsome]

How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.

[economista]

How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.

This is completely true.  In my family you only get help if you "need" it.  So if you are responsible, hard working, and independent, you won't get any help at all from your parents.  If you are irresponsible, lazy, and a complete screw up, they will help you out constantly and give you plenty of money and things.  This extrapolates out to the larger family as well - if you are the first person in the entire history of your family to graduate from college (and do it with no help from your parents at all), none of your relatives will show up to your graduation party.  If you are a 20 year old with no college at all, a part time minimum wage job, and you get pregnant accidentally with a guy you've been dating for just a few weeks, every damn family member for 3 generations will show up to your baby shower and literally shower you in gifts, gift cards, and congratulations.  Yes, these events happened a week apart, and yes I am still slightly bitter about it. 

[Feivel2000]

How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.

This is completely true.  In my family you only get help if you "need" it.  So if you are responsible, hard working, and independent, you won't get any help at all from your parents.  If you are irresponsible, lazy, and a complete screw up, they will help you out constantly and give you plenty of money and things.  This extrapolates out to the larger family as well - if you are the first person in the entire history of your family to graduate from college (and do it with no help from your parents at all), none of your relatives will show up to your graduation party.  If you are a 20 year old with no college at all, a part time minimum wage job, and you get pregnant accidentally with a guy you've been dating for just a few weeks, every damn family member for 3 generations will show up to your baby shower and literally shower you in gifts, gift cards, and congratulations.  Yes, these events happened a week apart, and yes I am still slightly bitter about it.

Don't be too bitter about this. It's well described as weakaning the weak and strengthening the strong (or something like that, I read a [truly terrible] German translation), in Millionaire Next Door.

[sw1tch]

How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.

This is completely true.  In my family you only get help if you "need" it.  So if you are responsible, hard working, and independent, you won't get any help at all from your parents.  If you are irresponsible, lazy, and a complete screw up, they will help you out constantly and give you plenty of money and things.  This extrapolates out to the larger family as well - if you are the first person in the entire history of your family to graduate from college (and do it with no help from your parents at all), none of your relatives will show up to your graduation party.  If you are a 20 year old with no college at all, a part time minimum wage job, and you get pregnant accidentally with a guy you've been dating for just a few weeks, every damn family member for 3 generations will show up to your baby shower and literally shower you in gifts, gift cards, and congratulations.  Yes, these events happened a week apart, and yes I am still slightly bitter about it.

Reading this brought out a twinge in my neck..  I can relate and (sadly) one-up this.  Not only were my accomplishments not all that important, but I was supposed to be the one to shower the gifts onto those others that "needed" it.  So, no help from parents and I had to be a surrogate parent to other siblings and to the parents themselves.

[mm1970]

How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.

This is completely true.  In my family you only get help if you "need" it.  So if you are responsible, hard working, and independent, you won't get any help at all from your parents.  If you are irresponsible, lazy, and a complete screw up, they will help you out constantly and give you plenty of money and things.  This extrapolates out to the larger family as well - if you are the first person in the entire history of your family to graduate from college (and do it with no help from your parents at all), none of your relatives will show up to your graduation party.  If you are a 20 year old with no college at all, a part time minimum wage job, and you get pregnant accidentally with a guy you've been dating for just a few weeks, every damn family member for 3 generations will show up to your baby shower and literally shower you in gifts, gift cards, and congratulations.  Yes, these events happened a week apart, and yes I am still slightly bitter about it.

I can relate.

On the other hand... go fund me.  I had an interesting experience with it recently, as one family member and one friend put them out there for help.

Now, in general, I'm not opposed to go fund me.  Sometimes, people just need help.

But I couldn't help to think about it -
- in the case of my niece, she got sober and was fundraising for tuition for a class to teach a particular kind of exercise.  She recently got her degree in counseling, and feels that it will help her be a better counselor.  (After being a bartender well into her 30's.)  Interestingly, the amount wasn't high - less than $4000.  I noticed that not a single family member donated.  Not her mother or brother.  Only friends.  Not aunts (and there are a lot of us).  Now, my family tends to be all "bootstraps".  But my own personal thought (aside from I rarely see her, so why ask me?), is that she's in her mid-30s and has a job.  Save up for a year and then take the class.

[wannabe-stache]

I recently discovered MMM and have shared with friends and family, nearly all of which have little to no savings.  Luckily my wife and i have always been savers but we've recently really buckled down and save 70-80% of our income now.  FIRE for us will be at $3M in less than 10 years i think.

Some of our less well-off family came to town for the birth of our first child a month ago (yay!).  They are some of the kin that we have shared the MMM philosophy with and they have made some changes (bought a lawnmower to cut their own grass, cut out 5x coffee trips each week, etc.).

The rented an AirBNB a couple doors down, so they had a kitchen to utilize.  Instead of using the kitchen, they ate out for lunch nearly every single day, and restaurants around us are not cheap.  and there wasn't a day that went by that they weren't running to dunkin donuts for coffee.

i am fairly certain that they have a negative net worth.  and they have 2 kids under 5 years old that have kiddie toys galore.

i just don't get it.  neither do they.

[Sibley]

I recently discovered MMM and have shared with friends and family, nearly all of which have little to no savings.  Luckily my wife and i have always been savers but we've recently really buckled down and save 70-80% of our income now.  FIRE for us will be at $3M in less than 10 years i think.

Some of our less well-off family came to town for the birth of our first child a month ago (yay!).  They are some of the kin that we have shared the MMM philosophy with and they have made some changes (bought a lawnmower to cut their own grass, cut out 5x coffee trips each week, etc.).

The rented an AirBNB a couple doors down, so they had a kitchen to utilize.  Instead of using the kitchen, they ate out for lunch nearly every single day, and restaurants around us are not cheap.  and there wasn't a day that went by that they weren't running to dunkin donuts for coffee.

i am fairly certain that they have a negative net worth.  and they have 2 kids under 5 years old that have kiddie toys galore.

i just don't get it.  neither do they.

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency. 

[StockBeard]

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.

Not if their yearly income is 500k

[paddedhat]

Don't be too bitter about this. It's well described as weaking the weak and strengthening the strong (or something like that, I read a [truly terrible] German translation), in Millionaire Next Door.

I was raised in a bizarre, and unintended social experiment. I was raised by a stay at home mom and a step dad, who was a recently retired ex-marine, an amphibious assault soldier. He was tough as nails, she went along with the program. A decade later, after my mom had two additional kids, she wanted to be somebody, and find a career. She headed off for a social work degree, and got immersed in a very different style of child rearing. Essentially, the pop psychology of the day (early 1970s) made it clear that everything she had done so far was totally wrong, and that discipline and structure would only lead to failure when raising kids. This, in some ways boiled down to no discipline or boundaries, and later in life, a desire to please and enable the children, particularly the lone daughter. The odd part, is that the entire family understood that there was a clear divide between how I was raised, and how the two younger ones were. My step dad freely admitted such, and lamented that his desire to actually raise his two younger kids as he (and most of society) saw fit, was a constant source of marriage issues, and that they essentially failed with those two.

To say that this was a contrast in strengthening some, and weakening others, is an understatement. My half-brother is marginally functional as a self-sustaining adult, and my half-sister is an epic train wreck. If I had the cash the parents burned on those two, by the time they were young adults, in order to enable, and extract them from various messes, I could of bought a new home, and really gotten a great head start, right out of the gate.

[cheapass]

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.

Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

[Proud Foot]

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.

Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

Read through the original post and the numbers work out. 4% of a $3m stache is $120k. If his expenses are around $120k and they are saving between 70-80% of income that puts income at $400-$600k

[Sibley]

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.

Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

Read through the original post and the numbers work out. 4% of a $3m stache is $120k. If his expenses are around $120k and they are saving between 70-80% of income that puts income at $400-$600k

I'm not questioning the numbers. I'm questioning one of 2 things, or possibly both:

1. Such low risk tolerance that $3M is needed to FIRE.
2. Expenses are so high as to require $3M to FIRE.

[Abundant life]

Don't be too bitter about this. It's well described as weaking the weak and strengthening the strong (or something like that, I read a [truly terrible] German translation), in Millionaire Next Door.

I was raised in a bizarre, and unintended social experiment. I was raised by a stay at home mom and a step dad, who was a recently retired ex-marine, an amphibious assault soldier. He was tough as nails, she went along with the program. A decade later, after my mom had two additional kids, she wanted to be somebody, and find a career. She headed off for a social work degree, and got immersed in a very different style of child rearing. Essentially, the pop psychology of the day (early 1970s) made it clear that everything she had done so far was totally wrong, and that discipline and structure would only lead to failure when raising kids. This, in some ways boiled down to no discipline or boundaries, and later in life, a desire to please and enable the children, particularly the lone daughter. The odd part, is that the entire family understood that there was a clear divide between how I was raised, and how the two younger ones were. My step dad freely admitted such, and lamented that his desire to actually raise his two younger kids as he (and most of society) saw fit, was a constant source of marriage issues, and that they essentially failed with those two.

To say that this was a contrast in strengthening some, and weakening others, is an understatement. My half-brother is marginally functional as a self-sustaining adult, and my half-sister is an epic train wreck. If I had the cash the parents burned on those two, by the time they were young adults, in order to enable, and extract them from various messes, I could of bought a new home, and really gotten a great head start, right out of the gate.

Which is the social experiment Paddlehat, your quasi-military upbringing, which made you an independent self-supporting adult or the pop-psychology of the 70s, that produced the failure of your siblings?

[With This Herring]

Don't be too bitter about this. It's well described as weaking the weak and strengthening the strong (or something like that, I read a [truly terrible] German translation), in Millionaire Next Door.

I was raised in a bizarre, and unintended social experiment. I was raised by a stay at home mom and a step dad, who was a recently retired ex-marine, an amphibious assault soldier. He was tough as nails, she went along with the program. A decade later, after my mom had two additional kids, she wanted to be somebody, and find a career. She headed off for a social work degree, and got immersed in a very different style of child rearing. Essentially, the pop psychology of the day (early 1970s) made it clear that everything she had done so far was totally wrong, and that discipline and structure would only lead to failure when raising kids. This, in some ways boiled down to no discipline or boundaries, and later in life, a desire to please and enable the children, particularly the lone daughter. The odd part, is that the entire family understood that there was a clear divide between how I was raised, and how the two younger ones were. My step dad freely admitted such, and lamented that his desire to actually raise his two younger kids as he (and most of society) saw fit, was a constant source of marriage issues, and that they essentially failed with those two.

To say that this was a contrast in strengthening some, and weakening others, is an understatement. My half-brother is marginally functional as a self-sustaining adult, and my half-sister is an epic train wreck. If I had the cash the parents burned on those two, by the time they were young adults, in order to enable, and extract them from various messes, I could of bought a new home, and really gotten a great head start, right out of the gate.

Which is the social experiment Paddlehat, your quasi-military upbringing, which made you an independent self-supporting adult or the pop-psychology of the 70s, that produced the failure of your siblings?

I would guess that the social experiment was PaddedHat's strict/traditional upbringing being used as a control subject against the half-siblings raised as no-rules test subjects.  So, both.

[AlanStache]

I recently discovered MMM and have shared with friends and family, nearly all of which have little to no savings.  Luckily my wife and i have always been savers but we've recently really buckled down and save 70-80% of our income now.  FIRE for us will be at $3M in less than 10 years i think.
...

A 3MM FIRE number is VERY high for around here.  Typically we do not include property values or other non-stock market assets as part of the '4% rule' as the 4% rule is based off long term average stock market returns.  If you have positive net worth now and are saving 70-80% your FIRE date should not be 10 years out unless you have some big expenses coming up (paying for kids Stanford education, buying your parents a yacht, going to space with Virgin Galactic, etc).  It might be useful to post a case study in a new thread if you are unsure how 4% applies to your specific situation.

[paddedhat]

Which is the social experiment Paddlehat, your quasi-military upbringing, which made you an independent self-supporting adult or the pop-psychology of the 70s, that produced the failure of your siblings?
[/quote]
I would guess that the social experiment was PaddedHat's strict/traditional upbringing being used as a control subject against the half-siblings raised as no-rules test subjects.  So, both.
[/quote]
[/color]
The entire family, and the polar opposite approach to child rearing, was the experiment. My side of the deal was not extreme enough to qualify as a  "quasi-military" experience, but more of a rigid, traditional, mid-century approach to "family values" one would expect from much of the working class, white America, at that time. My brother and sister were nearly a decade younger, and there experience was a lot less disciplined, and more of a "do your own thing, judgement free, Mom is here to be your buddy, not a mentor, or discplinarian" experience. This really WAS cutting edge, early 1970s "best practice" psychological garbage, shoveled at many universities at that point. By the time I was out of the house, my half sister was basically out of control, and Mom was deep into a 60 hr a week career.  At that point, IMHO, guilt became a major driver of their relationship. Mom spent the next few decades coddling and enabling to the point that it was pretty horrible to watch, and I only did so at a distance.

 The DW and I raised two decent young adults, and we retired with no financial worries, about 15 years early. My half-bro has been completely broke on several occasions, including running up $125K in CC debt at one point (no that is not a typo) and losing his home. He gets by at this time ,with a sales job. He is in his late 40s, and doesn't have a dime to his name, or any long term relationships.  The half-sis is a disaster on SSDI, with a felony DUI fatality among her multiple DUI convictions, and a major prescription drug addiction. Mom died nearly a decade ago. Both parents died 20-25 years younger than expected, and the stress of the family situation was a major factor in their failed health and very early demise. I haven't had contact with the half-sister since the funeral.

Sorry, but this one is a bit light in the happy ending department.

[Cassie]

PH: that is really sad about your 2 siblings. We raised our kids about the same time and ignored the pop psychology stuff.  WE raised our kids the way we were raised.  I too went to college later at age 31 but did not ignore my kids in order to do it. I gave up things like going to events unless kid related, reading for fun, watching TV, etc. It was just kids and school and everything that revolved around that. It was fine because I got to my goal without sacrificing my family.

[wannabe-stache]

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.

Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

Read through the original post and the numbers work out. 4% of a $3m stache is $120k. If his expenses are around $120k and they are saving between 70-80% of income that puts income at $400-$600k

Sorry that i missed all these posts (i did mention i am new around here).  A few reasons my numbers seem out of whack:

1. I am very conservative by nature.  i assume a 3% SWR, partially b/c my wife would kill me if the whole "FIRE" thing didn't end well.
2. I also assume we will spend around $90-100K per year which we really shouldn't, but we could (and used to).  In 2016 i probably spent $25K on training, coaching services and travel related to a fitness endeavor.  We probably spent $5K on expensive wines on a Napa trip.  Yes, we were really dumb.  I still budget $10K/year for travel alone.
3. We live in a HCOL area.
4. My first child was born one month ago.  I cannot convince my wife that we don't actually need hundreds of egyptian cotton swaddles...luckily most have been gifts.

My spreadsheet actually indicates we'll be FI in 3-4 years but we all know how many assumptions go into that (market returns, expenses, ability to continue to save $200K+ per year).  At a 4% SWR and cutting back expenses to normal levels i am fairly certain we could retire next year.

The good news is that we've got it under control. I traded in my BMW for a honda, let my landscaper go, cook all meals at home (i like to cook), canceled cable, etc.

Sometimes it feels weird to think about spending the weekends making freezer meals, hummus and homemade bread when i could be relaxing on the couch with my wife and baby, particularly when we have a high AGI at the moment.  Something about that doesn't feel right, almost feels selfish although i know that FIRE = more time with family during the "RE" part.

[MgoSam]

Roll forward five years, and the poor idiot does it again. His then-gf2 didn't run off with the money at least, but insisted on luxurious holidays several times a year that they could not afford (and didn't work). He has also been getting lax with the repayments to my dad lately, because "They have to understand that he is poor." and "What's the big deal?".

This pisses the #$$ out of me. Your brother needs to understand "that he is poor," not the father. I am far from poor but there's a TON of things I don't do because even though I can afford it I can't mentally justify it's expense. Luxury holidays is one of the things that I've put off for the time being, my vacations consist of visiting a cousin and hanging out in that area or when going on a work trip, extending my stay for a few extra days so I only need to pay for lodging, food, and other expenses.

If you're brother were poor and paying for these vacations out of his own pocket then fine, I wouldn't really care, but the fact that someone else is forking the bill is obscene.

[wannabe-stache]

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.

Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

Read through the original post and the numbers work out. 4% of a $3m stache is $120k. If his expenses are around $120k and they are saving between 70-80% of income that puts income at $400-$600k

I'm not questioning the numbers. I'm questioning one of 2 things, or possibly both:

1. Such low risk tolerance that $3M is needed to FIRE.
2. Expenses are so high as to require $3M to FIRE.

It's the risk tolerance. I assume 3% SWR.  And while we don't need to spend $100K+, i guess i would like to be able to.  There are many places i have yet to see and someday i would like to.

[kayvent]

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.

Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

Read through the original post and the numbers work out. 4% of a $3m stache is $120k. If his expenses are around $120k and they are saving between 70-80% of income that puts income at $400-$600k

Sorry that i missed all these posts (i did mention i am new around here).  A few reasons my numbers seem out of whack:

1. I am very conservative by nature.  i assume a 3% SWR, partially b/c my wife would kill me if the whole "FIRE" thing didn't end well.
2. I also assume we will spend around $90-100K per year which we really shouldn't, but we could (and used to).  In 2016 i probably spent $25K on training, coaching services and travel related to a fitness endeavor.  We probably spent $5K on expensive wines on a Napa trip.  Yes, we were really dumb.  I still budget $10K/year for travel alone.
3. We live in a HCOL area.
4. My first child was born one month ago.  I cannot convince my wife that we don't actually need hundreds of egyptian cotton swaddles...luckily most have been gifts.

My spreadsheet actually indicates we'll be FI in 3-4 years but we all know how many assumptions go into that (market returns, expenses, ability to continue to save $200K+ per year).  At a 4% SWR and cutting back expenses to normal levels i am fairly certain we could retire next year.

The good news is that we've got it under control. I traded in my BMW for a honda, let my landscaper go, cook all meals at home (i like to cook), canceled cable, etc.

Sometimes it feels weird to think about spending the weekends making freezer meals, hummus and homemade bread when i could be relaxing on the couch with my wife and baby, particularly when we have a high AGI at the moment.  Something about that doesn't feel right, almost feels selfish although i know that FIRE = more time with family during the "RE" part.

I give you credit for coming so far and I 100% can understand your wife's conservative and motherly tendencies. Those are assets.

With respect to that last part, I think you have it a bit wrong. A frugal lifestyle can mean more time now? I feel sorry for people who work overtime, never see their children, and they are so depressed over the last two that they get convenience food for their lunch. Never realizing the latter has a feedback loop with the priors.

Also, concerning bread. We eat one loaf of bread a week at my house (myself, one child). I like baking and my daughter likes cooking with me. Cooking loaves myself saves me 0.50$ (I buy ethical eggs). Given the time it takes me, the ROI is too low to bake bread for any reason but pleasure occasionally. The only way I could make it work economically would be to buy a set-and-forget bread maker or stand mixer to slice down the time invested. (Even then, the break even point for me would be 2-4 years.)

Always put a value on your time and enjoyment. If buying two two-dollar whole grain loaves of bread a week costs you two extra dollars, saves you an hour, is about as healthy, and you don't find baking fun.......play with baby and baby.

[marielle]

Also, concerning bread. We eat one loaf of bread a week at my house (myself, one child). I like baking and my daughter likes cooking with me. Cooking loaves myself saves me 0.50$ (I buy ethical eggs). Given the time it takes me, the ROI is too low to bake bread for any reason but pleasure occasionally. The only way I could make it work economically would be to buy a set-and-forget bread maker or stand mixer to slice down the time invested. (Even then, the break even point for me would be 2-4 years.)

What kind of bread are you making that has eggs? The most basic recipe only has water, bread flour, yeast, and salt. Also, a great substitute for eggs in baking is 3 tablespoons water mixed with 1 tablespoon flaxseed (let it sit for a couple minutes first). Cruelty free and healthy!

I'll admit I do have a bread machine, but to me it's worth its weight in gold. You can also use the dough setting on a food processor if you have a dough blade.

It costs me around 50 cents to make 6-8 burger buns at home with the bread machine versus $3 at the store (unless I buy the really shitty ones but no thanks). Maybe about 5-10 minutes of effort to measure ingredients and later pull the dough out of the machine to divide up into balls and bake. Even if the savings wasn't that much, it's still worth it for bread that is far superior than the basic stuff at the store. I'm sure I could find something equivalent at the bakery but it would be double the price then.

[wannabe-stache]

Sometimes it feels weird to think about spending the weekends making freezer meals, hummus and homemade bread when i could be relaxing on the couch with my wife and baby, particularly when we have a high AGI at the moment.  Something about that doesn't feel right, almost feels selfish although i know that FIRE = more time with family during the "RE" part.
[/quote]

I give you credit for coming so far and I 100% can understand your wife's conservative and motherly tendencies. Those are assets.

With respect to that last part, I think you have it a bit wrong. A frugal lifestyle can mean more time now? I feel sorry for people who work overtime, never see their children, and they are so depressed over the last two that they get convenience food for their lunch. Never realizing the latter has a feedback loop with the priors.

Also, concerning bread. We eat one loaf of bread a week at my house (myself, one child). I like baking and my daughter likes cooking with me. Cooking loaves myself saves me 0.50$ (I buy ethical eggs). Given the time it takes me, the ROI is too low to bake bread for any reason but pleasure occasionally. The only way I could make it work economically would be to buy a set-and-forget bread maker or stand mixer to slice down the time invested. (Even then, the break even point for me would be 2-4 years.)

Always put a value on your time and enjoyment. If buying two two-dollar whole grain loaves of bread a week costs you two extra dollars, saves you an hour, is about as healthy, and you don't find baking fun.......play with baby and baby.
[/quote]

What I meant by the frugal lifestyle "taking time" was that it's faster and easier to eat out, or buy processed food, or pay a landscaper, rather than to do it yourself.  Luckily, a) i really enjoy cooking and b) i am the type to really commit, perhaps borderline obsessive at times.  So knowing that doing these things myself will save us $ and let us retire earlier, i don't want to give in and go back to excessive spending on restaurants or buying things one at a time from the corner grocery store.

Regarding my job, due to a tremendous amount of luck and a little hard work, i am blessed to work pretty easy hours and still earn enough to not really have to worry about $ for the time being.

Good point on the bread though - all things in moderation, even frugality. i won't be line drying my clothes or riding my bike to work, at least not in the South FL summer heat.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

You either pay for something with time or money. I think it's an individual choice which you prefer. You pay either way, however.

[AlanStache]

You either pay for something with time or money. I think it's an individual choice which you prefer. You pay either way, however.

Have you not been reading this thread?  All you have to do is send a text to your parents and they will Amazon you some food or pay the landlord - takes like 3 seconds.  :-)

[kayvent]

Also, concerning bread. We eat one loaf of bread a week at my house (myself, one child). I like baking and my daughter likes cooking with me. Cooking loaves myself saves me 0.50$ (I buy ethical eggs). Given the time it takes me, the ROI is too low to bake bread for any reason but pleasure occasionally. The only way I could make it work economically would be to buy a set-and-forget bread maker or stand mixer to slice down the time invested. (Even then, the break even point for me would be 2-4 years.)

What kind of bread are you making that has eggs? The most basic recipe only has water, bread flour, yeast, and salt. Also, a great substitute for eggs in baking is 3 tablespoons water mixed with 1 tablespoon flaxseed (let it sit for a couple minutes first). Cruelty free and healthy!

I'll admit I do have a bread machine, but to me it's worth its weight in gold. You can also use the dough setting on a food processor if you have a dough blade.

It costs me around 50 cents to make 6-8 burger buns at home with the bread machine versus $3 at the store (unless I buy the really shitty ones but no thanks). Maybe about 5-10 minutes of effort to measure ingredients and later pull the dough out of the machine to divide up into balls and bake. Even if the savings wasn't that much, it's still worth it for bread that is far superior than the basic stuff at the store. I'm sure I could find something equivalent at the bakery but it would be double the price then.

Do you have a bread maker recommendation?

[Carless]

I recommend one with the more horizontal pan if possible.  Also, I've never NOT seen one on sale when I go to the thrift store.

[Playing with Fire UK]

You either pay for something with time or money. I think it's an individual choice which you prefer. You pay either way, however.

Have you not been reading this thread?  All you have to do is send a text to your parents and they will Amazon you some food or pay the landlord - takes like 3 seconds.  :-)

Thank you for an actually LOL, and for making me spray coffee on the keyboard.

[Playing with Fire UK]

You either pay for something with time or money. I think it's an individual choice which you prefer. You pay either way, however.

Have you not been reading this thread?  All you have to do is send a text to your parents and they will Amazon you some food or pay the landlord - takes like 3 seconds.  :-)

Thank you for an actually LOL, and for making me spray coffee on the keyboard.

But no worries on the keyboard, just texted Mummy and Daddy and they're shipping me a new one. You're right, no time at all, and free.

[chicklet42]

My mother asked me to run to the grocery store for her to pick up a few things (for which she would reimburse me). One of the things she needed me to pick up for her was dish soap. Because she is a woman in her mid-forties with absolutely nothing saved for retirement and no plans in that arena, I got her the cheapest dish soap in the store (she usually buys a fancy organic brand). I talked with her about it beforehand and she agreed it was a good idea. When I came home and unpacked the dish soap, my sister, who was visiting at the time, looked at me as if I had punched a kitten. She could not believe I bought cheap dish soap. She thought it was morally reprehensible for me to even suggest my mother try a cheaper and somewhat less environmentally healthy soap. She remained pissed off at me for quite some time, as if experimenting with affordable soap options was one of the worst things a human could do. My sister, I should mention, always buys the fancy organic brands, and is always incredibly broke!

[iris lily]

I didnt know organic dish soap existed. What dies that actually mean, I wonder. Dish soap without herbicides or i sectisides? I guess I use "organic" soaps then, too.haha

[AlanStache]

I didnt know organic dish soap existed. What dies that actually mean, I wonder. Dish soap without herbicides or i sectisides? I guess I use "organic" soaps then, too.haha

I think it means that 'Sodium Dodecylbenzene Sulfonate' was raised without antibiotics on pesticide free grain.
http://www.palmolive.com/ingredients

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

I didnt know organic dish soap existed. What dies that actually mean, I wonder. Dish soap without herbicides or i sectisides? I guess I use "organic" soaps then, too.haha

I think it means that 'Sodium Dodecylbenzene Sulfonate' was raised without antibiotics on pesticide free grain.
http://www.palmolive.com/ingredients

ahahhahahahhahhahah :)

[jinga nation]

Also, concerning bread. We eat one loaf of bread a week at my house (myself, one child). I like baking and my daughter likes cooking with me. Cooking loaves myself saves me 0.50$ (I buy ethical eggs). Given the time it takes me, the ROI is too low to bake bread for any reason but pleasure occasionally. The only way I could make it work economically would be to buy a set-and-forget bread maker or stand mixer to slice down the time invested. (Even then, the break even point for me would be 2-4 years.)

What kind of bread are you making that has eggs? The most basic recipe only has water, bread flour, yeast, and salt. Also, a great substitute for eggs in baking is 3 tablespoons water mixed with 1 tablespoon flaxseed (let it sit for a couple minutes first). Cruelty free and healthy!

I'll admit I do have a bread machine, but to me it's worth its weight in gold. You can also use the dough setting on a food processor if you have a dough blade.

It costs me around 50 cents to make 6-8 burger buns at home with the bread machine versus $3 at the store (unless I buy the really shitty ones but no thanks). Maybe about 5-10 minutes of effort to measure ingredients and later pull the dough out of the machine to divide up into balls and bake. Even if the savings wasn't that much, it's still worth it for bread that is far superior than the basic stuff at the store. I'm sure I could find something equivalent at the bakery but it would be double the price then.

Do you have a bread maker recommendation?

I use the Hamilton Beach Programmable Bread Machine, 2-Pound Bread Maker with Gluten-Free Setting (29882)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005EPRF1I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

We've used it for over 2 years now. The loaves are tall. Never had a bad bread. The smell of fresh bread is amazing. Just found out that I can make fresh jam with it. Have to try that next. My wife also uses it to make pizza dough.

[marielle]

Also, concerning bread. We eat one loaf of bread a week at my house (myself, one child). I like baking and my daughter likes cooking with me. Cooking loaves myself saves me 0.50$ (I buy ethical eggs). Given the time it takes me, the ROI is too low to bake bread for any reason but pleasure occasionally. The only way I could make it work economically would be to buy a set-and-forget bread maker or stand mixer to slice down the time invested. (Even then, the break even point for me would be 2-4 years.)

What kind of bread are you making that has eggs? The most basic recipe only has water, bread flour, yeast, and salt. Also, a great substitute for eggs in baking is 3 tablespoons water mixed with 1 tablespoon flaxseed (let it sit for a couple minutes first). Cruelty free and healthy!

I'll admit I do have a bread machine, but to me it's worth its weight in gold. You can also use the dough setting on a food processor if you have a dough blade.

It costs me around 50 cents to make 6-8 burger buns at home with the bread machine versus $3 at the store (unless I buy the really shitty ones but no thanks). Maybe about 5-10 minutes of effort to measure ingredients and later pull the dough out of the machine to divide up into balls and bake. Even if the savings wasn't that much, it's still worth it for bread that is far superior than the basic stuff at the store. I'm sure I could find something equivalent at the bakery but it would be double the price then.

Do you have a bread maker recommendation?

I use the Hamilton Beach Programmable Bread Machine, 2-Pound Bread Maker with Gluten-Free Setting (29882)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005EPRF1I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

We've used it for over 2 years now. The loaves are tall. Never had a bad bread. The smell of fresh bread is amazing. Just found out that I can make fresh jam with it. Have to try that next. My wife also uses it to make pizza dough.

I have this one for I believe about 2 years as well:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004VCZEOU/

Looks like the refurbished model isn't a bad deal. The only thing that is a bit annoying is the loud beeping that you can't turn off, but looks like someone in the reviews has a solution to just desolder that bit!

I would definitely suggest using only bread flour and maybe even some wheat gluten added in as well. I ignored all the recipes that the machine came with. All of them call for milk or butter which is ridiculous for almost all bread recipes...

Also, be careful with washing the bowl and blade. Mine is still fine, but is starting to show some signs of wear of the non-stick coating. Use only the soft side of the sponge and soak the bowl first if you have to.

[marielle]

Maybe I should get this back on topic...I'm pretty excited about reaching positive networth finally but I feel like I can't even celebrate it! I'm going to my bf's parent's new beach house this weekend and I don't know if it's even worth mentioning. But I'm almost tempted to say something to see what nasty comments I get (we have received comments that we live like "porpers" among other things which I've mentioned on this thread before). Who knows, maybe they'll actually have nice things to say for once?

Probably shouldn't mention it around my bf's sister though because she is several years older and very much so in debt because of student loans from her master's degree (undergrad was fully paid for by the parents) and a brand new SUV...

I'm at least going to wash my car today, they can judge all they want for driving my 14 year old "beater" but at least it will look nice. To be fair, it actually doesn't look like it's old when cleaned up because of a newer paint job.

[MrMoogle]

Maybe I should get this back on topic...I'm pretty excited about reaching positive networth finally but I feel like I can't even celebrate it! I'm going to my bf's parent's new beach house this weekend and I don't know if it's even worth mentioning. But I'm almost tempted to say something to see what nasty comments I get (we have received comments that we live like "porpers" among other things which I've mentioned on this thread before). Who knows, maybe they'll actually have nice things to say for once?

Probably shouldn't mention it around my bf's sister though because she is several years older and very much so in debt because of student loans from her master's degree (undergrad was fully paid for by the parents) and a brand new SUV...

I'm at least going to wash my car today, they can judge all they want for driving my 14 year old "beater" but at least it will look nice. To be fair, it actually doesn't look like it's old when cleaned up because of a newer paint job.

Congrats! A lot of people on here didn't get a positive net worth until much later than 24.

[Playing with Fire UK]

Maybe I should get this back on topic...I'm pretty excited about reaching positive networth finally but I feel like I can't even celebrate it! I'm going to my bf's parent's new beach house this weekend and I don't know if it's even worth mentioning. But I'm almost tempted to say something to see what nasty comments I get (we have received comments that we live like "porpers" among other things which I've mentioned on this thread before). Who knows, maybe they'll actually have nice things to say for once?

Probably shouldn't mention it around my bf's sister though because she is several years older and very much so in debt because of student loans from her master's degree (undergrad was fully paid for by the parents) and a brand new SUV...

I'm at least going to wash my car today, they can judge all they want for driving my 14 year old "beater" but at least it will look nice. To be fair, it actually doesn't look like it's old when cleaned up because of a newer paint job.

Well done!! Whatever they say, know that we are all cheering you on.

[With This Herring]

Congrats, Marielle!  I would suggest you not mention it.  Also, "porpers" sounds like a terrible spelling for "dolphin," haha.  (And my, you are ambitious!  I have never washed my car.)