Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 3768155 times)

JLee

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3400 on: August 01, 2017, 05:09:25 PM »
Huh...my pay stubs always have, but then I've always worked for state organizations and I feel like they usually have to provide a higher level of financial openness. My current university gave me a premium of $0 for choosing a lower-level plan with an employer-funded HSA (yup, read that right) and then filling out an online health self-assessment. I think they pay around $300/paycheck for me. But then I definitely have the most basic option they offer.

I'm pretty sure mine always have as well (non-gov now).

Proud Foot

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3401 on: August 02, 2017, 11:25:48 AM »
What?  Wait a sec.   All y'all's pay stubs dont include the company paid portion of your health insurance?  I have been taking this information for granted forever.  As of my last pay check my employer has paid 3457.30$ towards my insurance this year. 
I've never seen this on any of my of my wife's paychecks, across 6 companies.

I would love it if it were more public. It would incentivize companies to "compensate" employees who choose the HDHP options. They could put more money in the HSAs, to bring it up to par with the compensation of employees on fat cat plans.

Check your W-2 from last year.  The ACA required employers to report the cost of coverage in Box 12 Code DD. I don't remember seeing it on my paychecks prior to the ACA but it has been on there since that time.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3402 on: August 02, 2017, 12:31:21 PM »
What?  Wait a sec.   All y'all's pay stubs dont include the company paid portion of your health insurance?  I have been taking this information for granted forever.  As of my last pay check my employer has paid 3457.30$ towards my insurance this year. 
I've never seen this on any of my of my wife's paychecks, across 6 companies.

I would love it if it were more public. It would incentivize companies to "compensate" employees who choose the HDHP options. They could put more money in the HSAs, to bring it up to par with the compensation of employees on fat cat plans.

Check your W-2 from last year.  The ACA required employers to report the cost of coverage in Box 12 Code DD. I don't remember seeing it on my paychecks prior to the ACA but it has been on there since that time.
Yup, it's on my W-2. But my point still stands: the public doesn't understand taxes, and hiding it on a small box in a form that people blindly enter into turbotax or their accountant doesn't help much.

Proud Foot

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3403 on: August 02, 2017, 03:50:56 PM »
What?  Wait a sec.   All y'all's pay stubs dont include the company paid portion of your health insurance?  I have been taking this information for granted forever.  As of my last pay check my employer has paid 3457.30$ towards my insurance this year. 
I've never seen this on any of my of my wife's paychecks, across 6 companies.

I would love it if it were more public. It would incentivize companies to "compensate" employees who choose the HDHP options. They could put more money in the HSAs, to bring it up to par with the compensation of employees on fat cat plans.

Check your W-2 from last year.  The ACA required employers to report the cost of coverage in Box 12 Code DD. I don't remember seeing it on my paychecks prior to the ACA but it has been on there since that time.
Yup, it's on my W-2. But my point still stands: the public doesn't understand taxes, and hiding it on a small box in a form that people blindly enter into turbotax or their accountant doesn't help much.

I completely agree with you. I think a lot of people would be a little more grateful for the 15% premium increase* from the prior year if they actually saw how much their employer paid for the insurance, particularly if their increase was smaller than the total increase.
* I am not wanting to open up whether this is actually a reasonable/necessary increase or not.

mtn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3404 on: August 02, 2017, 04:43:09 PM »
Our company sent out an email detailing exactly how much it had been increasing for them over the past 3-4 years, and none of it was passed on to the employee. They finally raised our rates this year (less than the increase though).

The annoying thing is that they could easily cover the entire cost and it would barely touch the profits of the company, but our benefits are already very good compared to our competitors so they didn't have to.

MrMoogle

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3405 on: August 03, 2017, 10:04:10 AM »
What?  Wait a sec.   All y'all's pay stubs dont include the company paid portion of your health insurance?  I have been taking this information for granted forever.  As of my last pay check my employer has paid 3457.30$ towards my insurance this year. 
I've never seen this on any of my of my wife's paychecks, across 6 companies.

I would love it if it were more public. It would incentivize companies to "compensate" employees who choose the HDHP options. They could put more money in the HSAs, to bring it up to par with the compensation of employees on fat cat plans.

Check your W-2 from last year.  The ACA required employers to report the cost of coverage in Box 12 Code DD. I don't remember seeing it on my paychecks prior to the ACA but it has been on there since that time.
Yup, it's on my W-2. But my point still stands: the public doesn't understand taxes, and hiding it on a small box in a form that people blindly enter into turbotax or their accountant doesn't help much.

I completely agree with you. I think a lot of people would be a little more grateful for the 15% premium increase* from the prior year if they actually saw how much their employer paid for the insurance, particularly if their increase was smaller than the total increase.
* I am not wanting to open up whether this is actually a reasonable/necessary increase or not.
We have a yearly meeting regarding benefits, so everyone is well aware of what percentage our company pays vs what we pay.  Afterwards, I always hear griping about ObamaCare for a few weeks.  I'm sure in more liberal areas there would be complaints about greedy insurance companies.  If we have to pay more, there will always be someone/something to complain about because of it.

penguintroopers

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3406 on: August 05, 2017, 04:16:20 PM »
I did it! I've finally read all of the pages in this thread, from the very beginning. 69 pages of antimustachian hilariousness. I read the gems out loud or forwarded them in an email to my hubby.

I have to say, without a doubt the grandparents who borrowed money to save for the grandchild was the most ludicrous thing in this entire thread. As antimustachian as the new cars, giant houses, and bloated grocery bills are, I can sometimes get them from some people. You gotta eat, go places, and put a roof over you head. Right? Right. (Yes, but not by spending 2-10x more cash than what you actually have to!).

Anyway, I'll contribute my relatives who just don't get it. Last month I got my credit report just to make sure everything was going ok, and because I was curious why my score was a full 50 points lower than my husbands (we can see our "scores" on the bill once per quarter), despite us having nearly identical credit histories. Similar outstanding student loan, and I added him as an account holder to my small CC I got in college for cashback rewards, pretty much the only thing is he isn't on the $300 department store card I haven't used for like 2 years.

Turns out I had a 50% utilization. I nearly spat out my tea because we never keep more than about $200 on the card at any given time. I thought someone had gone on a spending spree and I just now found out about it. Scrolling through I find a card with ~12.6k outstanding on a ~20k limit. I nearly lose it because I don't recognize this card at all, until I see the primary account person is my stepdad. I had forgotten when I studied abroad that my parents added me and gave me the card for emergencies. With no emergencies, when I came back to the states I promptly forget about the card.

But now its sad to think that my parents have had a huge CC bill for at least 2 years now at at least 18% (pretty sure my parents have a high FICO score, but I have no idea how much it actually is. It could be more like 20, 25, or even 29.99% shudders).

All the while they live at an hour away from where they work, commuting back and forth in a (thankfully?) medium sized SUV and carpool. They eat practically every night out because they get home so late (leave work at 6, commute an hour, you get home at 7 hungry with nothing cooked). They don't want to move closer to work because the cost per square foot increases as you move closer to the city, and my mom loves the country and they love the neighborhood they are in. So much so that when they moved, they just moved to the opposite side of the neighborhood because they wanted a single-level home. Thankfully, they talk about it being their retirement home (standard retirement is still another ~15-20 years away).

I also feel bad, because my parents contributed quite a bit to our wedding. I thought their financial picture was a lot better (no CC debt, and at least a couple thousand earmarked as a thankful gift to us for the wedding). Had I known I probably would have asked for less, because our wedding was very nice but there were things we could have trimmed some if needed.

Gronnie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3407 on: August 05, 2017, 04:45:08 PM »
snip

Hopefully they are still saving money for retirement and just think carrying some credit card debit is "normal", and that you don't have to support yourself AND them when they retire.

For now, call the card company and ask to be removed as an authorized user on the account and for it to be removed from your report.

penguintroopers

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3408 on: August 05, 2017, 07:43:04 PM »
I think they are doing pretty good in that respect. The next posting my score shot up 100 points, so I'm definitely off of it. I'm thinking I'll see a weird decrease because my open credit was cut by like 2/3rds, but I'm ok with that.

The in-laws are the ones we're worried about supporting through their retirement (pretty sure they've saved either $0 or less than $10k), which makes me kind of upset because we know of ways they could cut costs, but choose not to out of sheer laziness and apathy.

I could post more, but am waiting for hubby to give me the ok, since it is his parents.

bob999

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3409 on: August 07, 2017, 02:04:13 AM »
I have a relative who just haven't learnt financial literacy and probably never will.

They bought a house and then two brand new cars. The two cars were bought on the same day!! Then bought a block of land that they couldn't afford and within weeks put it up for sale. Then filed for bankruptcy due to over committing and not being able to afford the repayments.

A few years go by and they buy another house and (you guessed it) brand new SUV. This time around the housing market was favourable and the price of their  house went up so they withdrew the equity and blew it on casinos.

Realising they can't afford the loans (again) declared bankruptcy (round 2).

They have been discharged of their bankruptcy recently and (you will not believe it) they have just bought another house and are talking about upgrading their cars and furniture because the house needs 'new' look.


Feivel2000

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3410 on: August 07, 2017, 02:31:50 AM »
I have a relative who just haven't learnt financial literacy and probably never will.

They bought a house and then two brand new cars. The two cars were bought on the same day!! Then bought a block of land that they couldn't afford and within weeks put it up for sale. Then filed for bankruptcy due to over committing and not being able to afford the repayments.

A few years go by and they buy another house and (you guessed it) brand new SUV. This time around the housing market was favourable and the price of their  house went up so they withdrew the equity and blew it on casinos.

Realising they can't afford the loans (again) declared bankruptcy (round 2).

They have been discharged of their bankruptcy recently and (you will not believe it) they have just bought another house and are talking about upgrading their cars and furniture because the house needs 'new' look.
Who is really the stupid in this story? The people living in nice houses, driving new cars and having fun in the casinos? Or the banks?

bob999

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3411 on: August 07, 2017, 04:55:53 AM »
I have a relative who just haven't learnt financial literacy and probably never will.

They bought a house and then two brand new cars. The two cars were bought on the same day!! Then bought a block of land that they couldn't afford and within weeks put it up for sale. Then filed for bankruptcy due to over committing and not being able to afford the repayments.

A few years go by and they buy another house and (you guessed it) brand new SUV. This time around the housing market was favourable and the price of their  house went up so they withdrew the equity and blew it on casinos.

Realising they can't afford the loans (again) declared bankruptcy (round 2).

They have been discharged of their bankruptcy recently and (you will not believe it) they have just bought another house and are talking about upgrading their cars and furniture because the house needs 'new' look.
Who is really the stupid in this story? The people living in nice houses, driving new cars and having fun in the casinos? Or the banks?

Sometimes I wonder the same thing. My relatives can't believe why anyone would impose not spending money when they can afford it. Their whole purpose to exist is to consume more.

MrMoogle

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3412 on: August 07, 2017, 09:26:12 AM »
I have a relative who just haven't learnt financial literacy and probably never will.

They bought a house and then two brand new cars. The two cars were bought on the same day!! Then bought a block of land that they couldn't afford and within weeks put it up for sale. Then filed for bankruptcy due to over committing and not being able to afford the repayments.

A few years go by and they buy another house and (you guessed it) brand new SUV. This time around the housing market was favourable and the price of their  house went up so they withdrew the equity and blew it on casinos.

Realising they can't afford the loans (again) declared bankruptcy (round 2).

They have been discharged of their bankruptcy recently and (you will not believe it) they have just bought another house and are talking about upgrading their cars and furniture because the house needs 'new' look.
Who is really the stupid in this story? The people living in nice houses, driving new cars and having fun in the casinos? Or the banks?
I bet the banks are charged a huge interest rate on the loans.  These people probably have extremely low credit scores.  They probably are making huge interest on the first 6 months and then taking the house/car back, and overall making money.  Also, sometimes they get to garnish wages after a bankruptcy. 

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3413 on: August 10, 2017, 03:27:45 AM »
I did it! I've finally read all of the pages in this thread, from the very beginning. 69 pages of antimustachian hilariousness. I read the gems out loud or forwarded them in an email to my hubby.

I have to say, without a doubt the grandparents who borrowed money to save for the grandchild was the most ludicrous thing in this entire thread.

You can read more about them here. There is seemingly no end to the horror.

2Cent

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3414 on: August 10, 2017, 04:07:15 AM »
My future inlaws...

They lost more than 100k to a ponzi scheme many years ago (before I knew them), the leader said he had 'good christian values' so they trusted him.  Now they are involved in a pyramid scheme(life leadership), which couldn't possibly be a scam because it has 'good christian values.  They refuse to see any similarity.  Their kids have all tried to talk them out of this but they refuse to listen.

Recently their business went bankrupt and for whatever reason it wasn't tax shielded, so now they are going bankrupt as well.  Because they have really bad credit history they couldn't get a car loan, so they LEASED a brand new Ford Fusion.  Never mind that they had working cars and could have bought a nicer one with a few months of their lease payments.  They changed their minds and decided they wanted the equity instead so they gave it back(presumably taking whatever penalities as well), and buying a used 2014 Lincoln for 20k! (I can only imagine the terms of this loan...). 

From my understanding this could either completely derail their bankruptcy at worst, get taken back if the court thinks it isn't a reasonable expense, or maybe worst of all, they could agree to keep paying the payments even after they get out of bankruptcy.

I'm scared shitless of having to fund them when they are older.
At least if they hit rock bottom now, they have some time to get used to live on a lower budget which is forced on them by circumstance rather than a limit that you set for their funding.

Feivel2000

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3415 on: August 10, 2017, 04:15:06 AM »
I did it! I've finally read all of the pages in this thread, from the very beginning. 69 pages of antimustachian hilariousness. I read the gems out loud or forwarded them in an email to my hubby.

I have to say, without a doubt the grandparents who borrowed money to save for the grandchild was the most ludicrous thing in this entire thread.

You can read more about them here. There is seemingly no end to the horror.
The link doesn't work for me. Can you name the thread and subforum?

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3416 on: August 10, 2017, 04:44:59 AM »
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/playing-with-fire-is-getting-burned

journals/playing-with-fire-is-getting-burned

Any better?

Snow

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3417 on: August 10, 2017, 06:50:34 AM »
I'm not sure if I should feel exasperated or just sad about my brother. The guy is sweet as anything, has a reasonable, but not high-paying job and really wants to settle down with a partner. This bleeds through into his dating game and he seems to attract leeches like nothing else.

10 years ago, he approached my dad in tears because his then-gf1 had convinced him to take out some $50k worth of CC debt and then ran off with the money. The interests were really bad, so dad liquidated all the funds he had saved so far (he had just started saving in funds at this point) and re-mortgaged the house to put it all into one big loan with a small interest. This refinancing alone saved my brother over $200 a month. It was agreed that he should pay my dad back x amount each month for y years.

Roll forward five years, and the poor idiot does it again. His then-gf2 didn't run off with the money at least, but insisted on luxurious holidays several times a year that they could not afford (and didn't work). He has also been getting lax with the repayments to my dad lately, because "They have to understand that he is poor." and "What's the big deal?".

It makes me sad that at this point, it very well looks like SO and I will be able to afford a mortgage much earlier that him, and he is several years my senior (and went straight to work, rather than through 5 years of poor student life). In confidence, my dad also told me that he would be very happy to help me (and SO) with a mortgage, should we wish. But my brother has burned his bridges in that regard.

So if I get anything from Playing with Fire UK's thread about inlaws... it is that I, sadly, cannot allow myself to get entangled with my brother's finances. It has caused enough strain on family relationships as it is. I will just continue playing the impoverished student who gets by, but not much more.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 06:52:19 AM by Snow »

prognastat

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3418 on: August 10, 2017, 07:47:22 AM »
I'm not sure if I should feel exasperated or just sad about my brother. The guy is sweet as anything, has a reasonable, but not high-paying job and really wants to settle down with a partner. This bleeds through into his dating game and he seems to attract leeches like nothing else.

10 years ago, he approached my dad in tears because his then-gf1 had convinced him to take out some $50k worth of CC debt and then ran off with the money. The interests were really bad, so dad liquidated all the funds he had saved so far (he had just started saving in funds at this point) and re-mortgaged the house to put it all into one big loan with a small interest. This refinancing alone saved my brother over $200 a month. It was agreed that he should pay my dad back x amount each month for y years.

Roll forward five years, and the poor idiot does it again. His then-gf2 didn't run off with the money at least, but insisted on luxurious holidays several times a year that they could not afford (and didn't work). He has also been getting lax with the repayments to my dad lately, because "They have to understand that he is poor." and "What's the big deal?".

It makes me sad that at this point, it very well looks like SO and I will be able to afford a mortgage much earlier that him, and he is several years my senior (and went straight to work, rather than through 5 years of poor student life). In confidence, my dad also told me that he would be very happy to help me (and SO) with a mortgage, should we wish. But my brother has burned his bridges in that regard.

So if I get anything from Playing with Fire UK's thread about inlaws... it is that I, sadly, cannot allow myself to get entangled with my brother's finances. It has caused enough strain on family relationships as it is. I will just continue playing the impoverished student who gets by, but not much more.

It's a fine line between helping a friend or family member that is doing terribly financially and getting dragged down by them. It's like saving a drowning person, if you aren't careful in how you do it they can drag you down with them.

RWD

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3419 on: August 10, 2017, 07:49:18 AM »
I did it! I've finally read all of the pages in this thread, from the very beginning. 69 pages of antimustachian hilariousness. I read the gems out loud or forwarded them in an email to my hubby.

I have to say, without a doubt the grandparents who borrowed money to save for the grandchild was the most ludicrous thing in this entire thread.

You can read more about them here. There is seemingly no end to the horror.
The link doesn't work for me. Can you name the thread and subforum?
The link works fine for me. Were you not logged in? The Journals subforum can only be viewed when you are logged in.

Feivel2000

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3420 on: August 10, 2017, 09:00:12 AM »
I did it! I've finally read all of the pages in this thread, from the very beginning. 69 pages of antimustachian hilariousness. I read the gems out loud or forwarded them in an email to my hubby.

I have to say, without a doubt the grandparents who borrowed money to save for the grandchild was the most ludicrous thing in this entire thread.

You can read more about them here. There is seemingly no end to the horror.
The link doesn't work for me. Can you name the thread and subforum?
The link works fine for me. Were you not logged in? The Journals subforum can only be viewed when you are logged in.
Might be a Tapatalk problem...

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3421 on: August 10, 2017, 10:32:37 AM »
He has also been getting lax with the repayments to my dad lately, because "They have to understand that he is poor." and "What's the big deal?".

The problem with hanging out with vampires is that you eventually become one. This, I believe, is what may have happened to your brother. After spending so much time with leeches, he's accustomed to the notion that it's right, reasonable, and OK to *be* in a one-way-street relationship. It feels normal. So flipping the script and being the person to whom resources flow also feels appropriate.

"They have to understand that he is poor."

No, *HE* has to understand that he is poor, and that his poverty is a direct result of thinking with his little head because he's got a reasonable job that should be able to pay for his necessities. Although he has the Constitutional right to the pursuit of happiness, even to the point of bankrupting himself in the quest for nooky, he also has the adult responsibility of making sure the negative consequences of those decisions stop with him. He does not have the right to drag other people into his financial quagmire.

As part of the understanding that he is poor-- and by that, I mean that he has a middle-class income but tons of debt due to past decisions-- he has to grok the fact that multiple expensive vacations simply aren't things he can afford, for him OR for someone else.

He also has to understand that his father made major personal sacrifices in order to bail him out the first time. He liquidated all his own savings and mortgaged the family home to save his son, thereby delaying his own retirement and possibly ensuring that he'll never have one. And, how has he repaid his father's sacrifice? By deciding that he doesn't have to repay the debt, by trying to stick his father with the bill, and by trying to gouge even more out of the good old man.

Pleasant personality notwithstanding, these are not the acts of a nice or good person. They are the self-absorbed decisions of a complete jerk. He might be "sweet as anything" but I don't think that what he's done to your father is very sweet. It appears to me that the sweetness has some very selective targets. He clearly has the skills to butter people up to get what he wants out of them, and he's very agreeable when getting what he wants, but look how he behaves when his father asks him to hold up his end of the deal. Tantrum time!

"What's the big deal?"

The big deal is that his father has worked hard all his life, and simply cannot afford to subsidize somebody with a higher standard of living than himself. Most likely he didn't get to go on the various beaches, cruises, and whatever other vacations your brother's girlfriend gouged, wheedled, boinked, manipulated, or tantrumed out of your brother. He didn't get to benefit from the vacation, and he also didn't get to benefit from whatever else the girlfriend did to convince your brother she was worth taking on vacation. All those benefits were directed toward your brother.

Snow

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3422 on: August 10, 2017, 11:02:48 AM »
The problem with hanging out with vampires is that you eventually become one. This, I believe, is what may have happened to your brother. After spending so much time with leeches, he's accustomed to the notion that it's right, reasonable, and OK to *be* in a one-way-street relationship. It feels normal. So flipping the script and being the person to whom resources flow also feels appropriate.

That... may have hit the nail on the head pretty hard. I think you might have just altered how I view my immature older brother.

I had not thought it to such extremes. Pension funds are seperate, so dad is still able to retire, and he has a small house and good personal finance sense. He will be all right.

But to think that my brother blew over two down-payments for a mortgage (hell, it's over 50% of a full mortgage at the prices down there) on air and is a liability on top of it... is pretty darn... off-putting? Distressing? Something along those lines.

Ann

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3423 on: August 10, 2017, 11:17:06 AM »
Pleasant personality notwithstanding, these are not the acts of a nice or good person.

I agree with GrimSqueaker's assessment.  I know Snow said his brother was "sweet" and didn't use the term "good person" or "nice", but I would like to segue into my distaste of people saying "I'm a good person" or "He's a good person".  I think such labeling opens up to justification of all sorts of selfish and even evil acts.  The human brain loves short cuts and we need them to function efficiently, but I wish people would avoid that one.  People aren't "good".  They just are, and need to decide every day how they will form their life.  Is this action or past action "good" or "bad"?  And it will be a mixed bag, with a lot of neutral.   And it's not additive.

Step37

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3424 on: August 10, 2017, 02:47:11 PM »
The problem with hanging out with vampires is that you eventually become one. This, I believe, is what may have happened to your brother. After spending so much time with leeches, he's accustomed to the notion that it's right, reasonable, and OK to *be* in a one-way-street relationship. It feels normal. So flipping the script and being the person to whom resources flow also feels appropriate.

That... may have hit the nail on the head pretty hard. I think you might have just altered how I view my immature older brother.

I had not thought it to such extremes. Pension funds are seperate, so dad is still able to retire, and he has a small house and good personal finance sense. He will be all right.

But to think that my brother blew over two down-payments for a mortgage (hell, it's over 50% of a full mortgage at the prices down there) on air and is a liability on top of it... is pretty darn... off-putting? Distressing? Something along those lines.

Snow, thank you for posting this, and TGS, thank you for the awesome response. You have both inspired me to text my sister and request that she begin repayment of the "short-term" loan I gave her TWO YEARS AGO. She agreed. I know that she and her husband are in a better place income-wise than they were, but this has only been since spring so I was giving them some breathing room . . . Enough already. The fact that it's a spending problem and not an income problem does not register with them.

She is coming to visit next month and will be bringing me post-dated cheques. If she can afford an airline ticket, she can afford to start paying me.

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3425 on: August 10, 2017, 07:44:32 PM »
"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is in the Declaration of Independence not the Constitution.

fluffmuffin

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3426 on: August 11, 2017, 08:30:37 AM »
Back OT from the healthcare chatter: My future SIL, OMG. I love her, but sometimes I just want to shake her. She's a teacher in a LCOL state, so doesn't have a high income. She's chosen to live by herself for the last three years instead of having a roommate, so she's been putting 50% of her salary towards rent every single month. She uses shopping as entertainment, has like three closets full of clothing, and goes to Marshalls/TJ Maxx every. single. week. She has virtually no savings and could only go on the family vacay this summer because the future in-laws subsidized her flight, which they did not have to do for anyone else, including the brother who's generally accepted to be a wayward fuckup and who only started holding down a full-time job a year ago.

She's moving today and keeps sending me texts about "oh no, I can't believe how much stuff I have to move, this is the worstttt," and she can't afford movers or to rent a truck so she's having to drive her compact car back and forth between her old city and her new city with all of her crap. Hmm, maybe EVERYTHING would be better if you bought less stuff at TJ Maxx?

Props to her, she is moving in with a roommate in her new city. We talked about how cutting her rent by so much would let her start saving, which I was thrilled about. But then she told me the reason why she wants to save: so she can get a place by herself after the school year :( It's just so frustrating. She tells me she's stressed out about money and I wish I could help, but I feel like I've just started making progress with my SO after three years of dating and a full year of cohabitation. I love my future in-laws, but they did not raise their kids with a lot of financial literacy. I don't understand how that happened, since they're so on top of their own finances. My SO says they just never talked about money and that if there was something they wanted, they would just get it. Sigh.

The future SIL just texted me to ask about the brand of bag I brought with me on vacation so she could start shopping for one. It was a (hand-me-down) Longchamp Le Pliage, which retail around $145.

At least no one has had to take out an extra mortgage to service her debts, like Snow's brother. Yet...

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3427 on: August 11, 2017, 10:11:29 AM »
"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is in the Declaration of Independence not the Constitution.

I was actually going for a WWE reference: when a character is doing something extremely silly or self-destructive, the announcer describes it as exercising his (or in a very rare case, her) "Constitutional right to..." do something stupid that no sane person would do. The WWE use of the word "Constitutional" is deliberately ironic and also hilarious. I was kind of trying to tap into that.

former player

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3428 on: August 11, 2017, 11:13:44 AM »
"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is in the Declaration of Independence not the Constitution.

I was actually going for a WWE reference: when a character is doing something extremely silly or self-destructive, the announcer describes it as exercising his (or in a very rare case, her) "Constitutional right to..." do something stupid that no sane person would do. The WWE use of the word "Constitutional" is deliberately ironic and also hilarious. I was kind of trying to tap into that.
The bolded explains a lot about Trump: he must have missed the memo on that.

Snow

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3429 on: August 11, 2017, 11:29:00 PM »
This thread, and some of the inheritance threads, is making me increasingly happy that my family doesn't have very much to fight over. Though, I am now starting to entertain the thought that my "poor" brother might try to screw me over, but 1) I'll build my own life, always have, and 2) that is so far into the horizon that I am not going to let it cloud my skies.

K-ice

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3430 on: August 15, 2017, 01:10:27 PM »
I am  very frustrated with a young relative.  They just started living on their own and made a good choice of renting a reasonably priced suite and found a job. But they keep posting or liking stupid  stuff like:
 
"After I get my hair and nails done I only have $2 in my bank account."

I worry that it is true and I know they have asked another relative for money recently.  Even if it is not true, they should not find those posts funny.

They have stuck with the job for a few months but I know they broke their lease. I'm not sure of the lease details, but I am very concerned with their responsibility level.

It is just frustrating to watch.  I am not sure I should PM them to offer budgeting help or anything. I am known as the "good with numbers geek" in the family.  But I don't want to come off as condescending.





marielle

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3431 on: August 15, 2017, 01:25:16 PM »
I am  very frustrated with a young relative.  They just started living on their own and made a good choice of renting a reasonably priced suite and found a job. But they keep posting or liking stupid  stuff like:
 
"After I get my hair and nails done I only have $2 in my bank account."

I worry that it is true and I know they have asked another relative for money recently.  Even if it is not true, they should not find those posts funny.

They have stuck with the job for a few months but I know they broke their lease. I'm not sure of the lease details, but I am very concerned with their responsibility level.

It is just frustrating to watch.  I am not sure I should PM them to offer budgeting help or anything. I am known as the "good with numbers geek" in the family.  But I don't want to come off as condescending.

Sounds like something your relative will learn on their own if things continue down this road. Provided no one offers bail-outs of course. Maybe you could send a couple links to articles but the advice could fall on deaf ears or possibly make things worse. Wasn't there a study that said when you argue with someone and provide facts/evidence that they just double down on their original belief?

Feivel2000

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3432 on: August 15, 2017, 02:11:33 PM »
When my sister got her first real paying job, I shared a couple of MMM articles with her, together with the observation that I would be ~100k richer if I had known these ideas and mindset when I got my first job (12 years ago).

I think it worked.

Lady SA

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3433 on: August 15, 2017, 03:03:54 PM »
I hereby submit my SIL as a very frustrating case of dumbass-ness.

She has zero financial skills. DH and I are quite sure she doesn't understand how banks work. Literally, like she doesn't understand the difference between checking and savings accounts and definitely doesn't understand the concept of auto bill pay.

She went to university to get a degree in performance piano. She racked up more than $80k+ in student loans, which her mom, my MIL, cosigned. FIL (divorced from MIL) saw the trainwreck coming a mile away and refused to cosign any loans with her, but MIL couldn't let SIL not go to college so she signed her financial life away. SIL graduated 5 years ago but has never consistently paid her loans (doesn't even pay the minimum when she deigns to pay at all), even though she has a pretty sweet gig playing pianos on cruise ships. This is hugely impacting my MIL's credit, who still has 3 younger children to put through college in the next few years.

SIL spends her time cruising exotic locales, buying luxurious clothing (for her job, of course! Can't be seen performing in the same glittery/slinky/outrageous evening gown twice in one month!), doing all the dumb tourist money-trap activities each week (ziplining, exotic expensive restaurants, etc). For someone whose job pays for room and board for the duration of the contract (!), and feeds you breakfast, lunch, and dinner, she saves NOTHING. Her living expenses SHOULD be low (and because of these perks, the pay is correspondingly low too), but she constantly racks up credit card debt (using a card that has foreign transaction fees!! WHILE ON INTERNATIONAL CRUISES. WHAT.) to party with her crew friends.

A few years ago, she started refusing to pay for her portion of the phone bill (MIL had her on her family plan). She was blowing through (roaming!) data like nobody's business and her portion was at least $100+ PER MONTH. My poor MIL called me, sobbing, because she had to dip into college savings for the younger sisters to pay this outrageous phone bill that SIL had stopped contributing to for the last 8 months--and it came out that previous to that, SIL would use that same $100 worth of data, but only send something like $30 per month and call it good enough. I told MIL to kick SIL off her plan, but MIL was horrified at the idea; SIL is often out of the country and leaving her without a phone was unfathomable. Also, part of it is that SIL is very touchy and would absolutely stop speaking with MIL for a year if MIL gave her even tiny consequences for her actions. I dropped it because MIL was getting so agitated, and I honestly have no idea how that all got worked out, if at all.

SIL treats MIL like an ATM with unlimited money (and gets outraged when the ATM shows signs of reluctance) because she deserves it for going through the trauma of her parents divorcing when she was 7. The kicker is that MIL and SFIL don't make all that much -- maybe they bring in $40k per year, if that, and have almost no retirement savings, but SIL thinks they are rolling in money and are selfish if they don't subsidize her lifestyle.

MIL and DH often try to talk with her to get her to take care of her bills and basic responsibilities. DH wants her to refinance her loans out of MIL's name but she can't get her shit together and do it because it's "too hard". She likes to use her time at sea as an excuse to ostrich and stick her head in the sand and not deal with things because "she can't get in contact". Bullshit, she has enough contact with the outside world to post a bajillion selfies in exotic places wearing a new swimsuit/outfit each time. She just refuses to deal with the scariness of finances because they are overwhelming and she shuts down completely.

Each year she also doesn't get her shit together for filing taxes and files for at least 2 or 3 extensions. Mostly because she can't be bothered gathering the few various documents she needs and "doesn't feel like it" <head explodes>. Again, taxes are big and scary so she ostriches. She messaged DH a few weeks ago and asked/demanded he do her taxes for her because her extension is up in like 2 weeks. DH told her "No way. I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole." lol

SIL is 3 years older than we are, but we are MILES ahead of her both financially and maturity-wise. I just cannot fathom taking advantage of family generosity/support like that and actively trying to be as much of a financial and emotional burden as possible. Within 2 months of having full-time jobs after college, both DH and I refinanced our loans to be in our names only so our parent's credit would no longer be affected. We have our own phone plan and pay it completely ourselves. We pay our taxes judiciously and file well before the deadline, every year.

I would have no problem simply letting her experience the natural consequences of being a complete dumbass and jerk, but the problem is my sweet MIL. She has tied herself financially to SIL and cannot extricate herself, and is sinking slowly because of SIL's ineptitude and selfishness. MIL made quite a few poor choices to enable SIL, but now seems to want out, but there's no way to get free without SIL's cooperation. We try to help out and cover some of MIL's and SFIL's bills, and help DH's younger sisters with books and a bit of tuition, but I get so steamed that each gift is in some way helping to subsidize SIL.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 03:17:21 PM by Lady SA »

ysette9

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3434 on: August 15, 2017, 03:33:30 PM »
Wow, what a disaster of a story. The MIL sounds like a classic enabler. For addicts there is al-anon for the family members so they can learn how to not be enablers and support the addict while living their own lives. It sounds like someone needs to open an equivalent organization for family members of financial disasters.

dandarc

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3435 on: August 15, 2017, 03:45:50 PM »
Lady SA -

Sounds like your MIL is a pretty hard-core enabler.  No idea if this would help, but your MIL / SIL dynamic sounds an awful lot like my Mom / Drug-addicted sister's dynamic.  "This is how drug addicts treat their parents" might put SIL's behavior in perspective.  Perhaps a follow up with "If you continue to give her money, she'll have no reason to change . . ."  If MIL is anything like my mom, she'll say the right things when you talk with her, but when it comes down to brass tacks, she'll continue to cave.  At least she'll know that you think that what she's doing is not helping anyone - if enough people she respects tell her that, maybe one day she'll start the process of removing the leach, which by then will be even more difficult.  If not, well at least you tried, and made it clear you're not participating in the insanity.

It is OK to be generous so long as nobody is being harmed.  In this case, many people are being harmed - MIL/FIL and SIL, obviously, and then you've got the other sisters.  Then I'm guessing this topic comes up fairly often, causing others such as you and DH distress.  MIL is basically saying with all this "not pissing off SIL is more important than everything else in my life, including doing what is best for SIL."

Anyway - sorry for everyone involved.  This sort of crap is very difficult.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3436 on: August 15, 2017, 04:55:51 PM »
Also, part of it is that SIL is very touchy and would absolutely stop speaking with MIL for a year if MIL gave her even tiny consequences for her actions.

Based on the rest of what you've told us, I see no down-side to that.

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3437 on: August 15, 2017, 04:58:44 PM »
Lady SA, your SiL is obviously batshit crazy and deserves a serious kick up the arse for her childish attitudes and for taking advantage of your MiL.

SIL spends her time cruising exotic locales, buying luxurious clothing (for her job, of course! Can't be seen performing in the same glittery/slinky/outrageous evening gown twice in one month!...

She's on a cruise ship. She would have a new audience every week or two!

Lady SA

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3438 on: August 15, 2017, 05:16:38 PM »
Also, part of it is that SIL is very touchy and would absolutely stop speaking with MIL for a year if MIL gave her even tiny consequences for her actions.

Based on the rest of what you've told us, I see no down-side to that.

Lol I completely agree with that. I have her blocked myself and any communication goes exclusively through DH. He does a good job rebuffing her ridiculous requests because he sees right through her, but his mom just can't bring herself to see reality. She knows its a bad situation, but can't bring herself to enact logical consequences with SIL because she's afraid of getting cut off. Honestly, it wouldn't be much different if SIL did cut her off out of spite -- the only time MIL hears from SIL is when SIL needs help paying bills. But in MIL's mind, that is better than nothing. DH and I haven't been able to persuade her otherwise, unfortunately.

MIL is a classic enabler, no doubt about it. We've gotten her to the point of not sending SIL monetary gifts once we pointed out that they were already gifting her the not-shut-off phone and such. Slow but steady progress on that front, but I don't think I'll ever be able to convince her to fully financially cut off SIL.

Lady SA

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3439 on: August 15, 2017, 05:17:33 PM »
SIL spends her time cruising exotic locales, buying luxurious clothing (for her job, of course! Can't be seen performing in the same glittery/slinky/outrageous evening gown twice in one month!...

She's on a cruise ship. She would have a new audience every week or two!

EXACTLY. The logic boggles the mind.

Lady SA

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3440 on: August 15, 2017, 05:36:46 PM »
Oh, I forgot another juicy tidbit about SIL! She cycles through boyfriends, about two per year, usually other crew members on the cruises she takes. They always bail on her once they start getting glimpses of her incredibly poor money skills. Her last one had to file her tax extensions for her (once he found out in June, I think, that she hadn't filed taxes) and then was gone within a month. LOL

Good on those guys for dodging that bullet.

I'm of the opinion that the only dude who will put up with her bullshit will be someone who is equally appallingly bad at finances, and then that will be a shitshow of epic proportions.

martyconlonontherun

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3441 on: August 15, 2017, 08:15:23 PM »
Friend 1 was talking to wife about friend 2 while I say in the back seat of the car. Her complaint was friend came from a wealthy family, no student loans and
 had a good job  so she had a judgy attitude how everyone should max out their 401k. Friend 1 went on a tangent on how unrealistic it was and that people in the real world have expenses they have to pay. Friend 1 makes about 90k a year and had less student loans loans than me. I make 65k, had massive student debt and known to waste money (random ali express purchases, travel a ton {I drive/crash at apartments of friends, but you can't tell that by the photos when I'm at an interesting location), etc)

After her going on to my wife for five-ten minutes on the subject and being so annoyed that friend 2 would make such an insane comment, I pipe in from the back "I plan on maxing out my 401k this year" and put my headphones back on.

She drives a brand new leased Rave4 after trading in her previous leased Rav4 that was less than a year old because she liked the new body style better and "Got a really, really good deal," has a pure breed talk that she spoils, renting a trendy apartment, and constantly had expensive food tasted. Totally different mindset and it makes it hard when we hang out since No, i would rather not spend $40/person on dinner tonight when I would rather cook us all a good meal for the price of one person.
 

Step37

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3442 on: August 15, 2017, 08:43:17 PM »
SIL spends her time cruising exotic locales, buying luxurious clothing (for her job, of course! Can't be seen performing in the same glittery/slinky/outrageous evening gown twice in one month!...

She's on a cruise ship. She would have a new audience every week or two!


EXACTLY. The logic boggles the mind.

Jesus, what an inconsiderate, parasitic twit. The mind boggles. Hope your MIL wakes up soon, Lady SA. This would be very hard to watch.

Feivel2000

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3443 on: August 16, 2017, 01:30:52 AM »
Only a small thing, but it is a gifted coffee mug from a relative who struggles to pay the bills on time.
It is a nice gesture and I love him , but I wish he would have his priorities in order...

Snow

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3444 on: August 16, 2017, 06:46:50 AM »
SIL spends her time cruising exotic locales, buying luxurious clothing (for her job, of course! Can't be seen performing in the same glittery/slinky/outrageous evening gown twice in one month!...

She's on a cruise ship. She would have a new audience every week or two!


EXACTLY. The logic boggles the mind.

Jesus, what an inconsiderate, parasitic twit. The mind boggles. Hope your MIL wakes up soon, Lady SA. This would be very hard to watch.

Wow, just. Wow.

fluffmuffin

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3445 on: August 16, 2017, 07:21:00 AM »
That SIL, Lady SA. Wow. Just...wow.

Spiffsome

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3446 on: August 16, 2017, 06:27:50 PM »
How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3447 on: August 16, 2017, 08:38:59 PM »
How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.

economista

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3448 on: August 17, 2017, 08:21:28 AM »
How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.

This is completely true.  In my family you only get help if you "need" it.  So if you are responsible, hard working, and independent, you won't get any help at all from your parents.  If you are irresponsible, lazy, and a complete screw up, they will help you out constantly and give you plenty of money and things.  This extrapolates out to the larger family as well - if you are the first person in the entire history of your family to graduate from college (and do it with no help from your parents at all), none of your relatives will show up to your graduation party.  If you are a 20 year old with no college at all, a part time minimum wage job, and you get pregnant accidentally with a guy you've been dating for just a few weeks, every damn family member for 3 generations will show up to your baby shower and literally shower you in gifts, gift cards, and congratulations.  Yes, these events happened a week apart, and yes I am still slightly bitter about it. 

Feivel2000

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3449 on: August 17, 2017, 08:37:00 AM »
How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.

This is completely true.  In my family you only get help if you "need" it.  So if you are responsible, hard working, and independent, you won't get any help at all from your parents.  If you are irresponsible, lazy, and a complete screw up, they will help you out constantly and give you plenty of money and things.  This extrapolates out to the larger family as well - if you are the first person in the entire history of your family to graduate from college (and do it with no help from your parents at all), none of your relatives will show up to your graduation party.  If you are a 20 year old with no college at all, a part time minimum wage job, and you get pregnant accidentally with a guy you've been dating for just a few weeks, every damn family member for 3 generations will show up to your baby shower and literally shower you in gifts, gift cards, and congratulations.  Yes, these events happened a week apart, and yes I am still slightly bitter about it.

Don't be too bitter about this. It's well described as weakaning the weak and strengthening the strong (or something like that, I read a [truly terrible] German translation), in Millionaire Next Door.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 02:38:32 AM by Feivel2000 »