Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 989087 times)

onlykelsey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #950 on: February 04, 2016, 01:53:48 PM »
BMI is also crap for very tall people.  My trim ex-college basketball player 6'8 friend is "overweight" despite being on the lanky side, and my very thin 6'4 husband has a BMI of 23 even though I can count his ribs.  The formula is kg/m^2, I wonder if kg/m^2.1 would adjust well for that.

druth

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #951 on: February 04, 2016, 02:14:06 PM »
There was actually somebody who came out with a 'New BMI' to solve for that.

https://people.maths.ox.ac.uk/trefethen/bmi_calc.html

onlykelsey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #952 on: February 04, 2016, 02:16:49 PM »
Interesting! I (5'4 woman) go from a 20.6 to 21.0 BMI.  My giant friend goes from... 25.4 to 23.4. 

Paul der Krake

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #953 on: February 04, 2016, 02:23:41 PM »
Okay, BMI is an imperfect proxy and it only applies to others. But again the underwriters don't care about outliers, they care about claim predictability. I am not in possession of data that proves or disproves a link between BMI and health costs, only suspicions.

There are ways that you could "exonerate" the outliers (tall people, linebackers, pregnant women, your mom). Auto insurers give discounts to good students to help with age discrimination.

I don't think it's likely that we'll see something like this soon though. There are lots of overweight people.


MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #954 on: February 04, 2016, 02:35:40 PM »
FOAM EVERYWHERE!

tiger002

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #955 on: February 04, 2016, 05:44:05 PM »
A bit off topic now, but thanks for the info about Credit Karma, it's good seeing why my credit score is the way it is. Though having over 750 despite doing nothing to go out of my way to build it proves that people obsess over it to much. Just pay bills on time and don't be in lots of debt, and I can't see anyone having a bad credit score.

Though I wonder how the score would be for the credit card utilization if I didn't have a credit card at all.

onlykelsey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #956 on: February 04, 2016, 05:57:49 PM »
You're welcome for the credit karma tip (if that was directed at me).  It always tells me my biggest negative factor is the low age of my accounts, which is frustrating because I can't make myself any older!  I guess I could have not opened a HELOC last year as well, though.

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #957 on: February 05, 2016, 10:38:48 AM »
You're welcome for the credit karma tip (if that was directed at me).  It always tells me my biggest negative factor is the low age of my accounts, which is frustrating because I can't make myself any older!  I guess I could have not opened a HELOC last year as well, though.

lol - same problem basically.


CreditKarma puts me at 724 (transunion) and 726 (equifax)

Age - 31.

My two biggest hits -  Age of credit, 5 years, 11 months, and Hard Inquiries - 6 (was house shopping last year (purchased one) and one credit union ran me 3 times alone)

I was at 810 prior to purchasing my home.

zephyr911

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #958 on: February 05, 2016, 10:56:13 AM »
I've had lenders tell me CreditKarma estimates slightly low due to the models they use. They don't necessarily pull your exact score - they calculate based on what they know of TU/EF scoring. The last time I actually saw both side by side, my real score was something like 20 or 30 points higher.
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mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #959 on: February 05, 2016, 11:35:43 AM »
It certainly is a balance between finding predictive factors that are supported by data and having those factors be allowed by the state departments of insurance. Plus, with 50 states + DC, GU, PR, VI, you'll virtually always have one state objecting to something the insurance carrier wants to do.
Right, there's definitely a social acceptance criteria. Right now, in the health market, we are cool with charging smokers and old people more, that's considered fair. Maybe in twenty years we'll be cool with charging more to anyone with a BMI > 30. Or lumping people into different risk pools by race. Or political leanings.

Is it illegal for a health insurer to use publicly available info to determine rates, am thinking that BMI, fitness levels and even political leanings would not be that hard to extract from FB for a great many people?  Maybe they could get BMI more directly but still.   Also could they use FB to look at your friends/family and there level of health, I assume there is some correlation within social circles.  Do the laws relate to the method of collection of information or its usage?

(I know this isn't a serious conversation about BMI, and no one was saying that it is a good indicator of health)

BMI would never happen. It is a pretty horrible indicator of health if you're going to use it as a major indicator. For example, by BMI my brother comes up Obese whereas I am merely overweight. In reality, my brother is ripped and can swim a mile without hesitation and other than asthma has no real health issues, whereas I really should lose 20 pounds of fat and add muscle, have about half the endurance that I did 6 years ago, and have high bloodpressure (although based on my family, that is going to be high no matter what). But looking at BMI, folks would say I'm in better health.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming
So they've changed the insurance at my old company, which used to self-insure.  I still have friends there, and one of my current coworker's spouses is there.

So, for their insurance, they have two different premium tiers.  There's a "test" now -
1.  BMI
2.  Smoker/ non=smoker
3.  Blood pressure
4.  Blood sugar
5.  ??  I don't remember the fifth one

If you OR your spouse fail 3 out of the 5, then you get the higher premiums.  I know this because my friend, whose husband works there, barely passed.  They don't smoke, but they are both overweight.  She passed, but he has both high BMI and high blood pressure.

That is astounding to me. Although I guess that the others *should* cancel the BMI out. Depending on what the 5th one is, I'd probably be close--I'm overweight by BMI standards (and admittedly in real life) and my BP will probably always be high (Thanks, genetics).
Maybe waist circumference?  I dunno, if I remember, I'll ask her when we are on our weekly walk/ gab session.

Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #960 on: February 05, 2016, 12:34:25 PM »
It certainly is a balance between finding predictive factors that are supported by data and having those factors be allowed by the state departments of insurance. Plus, with 50 states + DC, GU, PR, VI, you'll virtually always have one state objecting to something the insurance carrier wants to do.
Right, there's definitely a social acceptance criteria. Right now, in the health market, we are cool with charging smokers and old people more, that's considered fair. Maybe in twenty years we'll be cool with charging more to anyone with a BMI > 30. Or lumping people into different risk pools by race. Or political leanings.

Is it illegal for a health insurer to use publicly available info to determine rates, am thinking that BMI, fitness levels and even political leanings would not be that hard to extract from FB for a great many people?  Maybe they could get BMI more directly but still.   Also could they use FB to look at your friends/family and there level of health, I assume there is some correlation within social circles.  Do the laws relate to the method of collection of information or its usage?

(I know this isn't a serious conversation about BMI, and no one was saying that it is a good indicator of health)

BMI would never happen. It is a pretty horrible indicator of health if you're going to use it as a major indicator. For example, by BMI my brother comes up Obese whereas I am merely overweight. In reality, my brother is ripped and can swim a mile without hesitation and other than asthma has no real health issues, whereas I really should lose 20 pounds of fat and add muscle, have about half the endurance that I did 6 years ago, and have high bloodpressure (although based on my family, that is going to be high no matter what). But looking at BMI, folks would say I'm in better health.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming
So they've changed the insurance at my old company, which used to self-insure.  I still have friends there, and one of my current coworker's spouses is there.

So, for their insurance, they have two different premium tiers.  There's a "test" now -
1.  BMI
2.  Smoker/ non=smoker
3.  Blood pressure
4.  Blood sugar
5.  ??  I don't remember the fifth one

If you OR your spouse fail 3 out of the 5, then you get the higher premiums.  I know this because my friend, whose husband works there, barely passed.  They don't smoke, but they are both overweight.  She passed, but he has both high BMI and high blood pressure.

That is astounding to me. Although I guess that the others *should* cancel the BMI out. Depending on what the 5th one is, I'd probably be close--I'm overweight by BMI standards (and admittedly in real life) and my BP will probably always be high (Thanks, genetics).
Maybe waist circumference?  I dunno, if I remember, I'll ask her when we are on our weekly walk/ gab session.

Waist circumference was used for my life insurance policy. Well, taken but not used - I was 8.5 months pregnant at the time, I basically looked like a hot air balloon!

JordanOfGilead

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #961 on: February 05, 2016, 12:49:47 PM »
It certainly is a balance between finding predictive factors that are supported by data and having those factors be allowed by the state departments of insurance. Plus, with 50 states + DC, GU, PR, VI, you'll virtually always have one state objecting to something the insurance carrier wants to do.
Right, there's definitely a social acceptance criteria. Right now, in the health market, we are cool with charging smokers and old people more, that's considered fair. Maybe in twenty years we'll be cool with charging more to anyone with a BMI > 30. Or lumping people into different risk pools by race. Or political leanings.

Is it illegal for a health insurer to use publicly available info to determine rates, am thinking that BMI, fitness levels and even political leanings would not be that hard to extract from FB for a great many people?  Maybe they could get BMI more directly but still.   Also could they use FB to look at your friends/family and there level of health, I assume there is some correlation within social circles.  Do the laws relate to the method of collection of information or its usage?

(I know this isn't a serious conversation about BMI, and no one was saying that it is a good indicator of health)

BMI would never happen. It is a pretty horrible indicator of health if you're going to use it as a major indicator. For example, by BMI my brother comes up Obese whereas I am merely overweight. In reality, my brother is ripped and can swim a mile without hesitation and other than asthma has no real health issues, whereas I really should lose 20 pounds of fat and add muscle, have about half the endurance that I did 6 years ago, and have high bloodpressure (although based on my family, that is going to be high no matter what). But looking at BMI, folks would say I'm in better health.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming
So they've changed the insurance at my old company, which used to self-insure.  I still have friends there, and one of my current coworker's spouses is there.

So, for their insurance, they have two different premium tiers.  There's a "test" now -
1.  BMI
2.  Smoker/ non=smoker
3.  Blood pressure
4.  Blood sugar
5.  ??  I don't remember the fifth one

If you OR your spouse fail 3 out of the 5, then you get the higher premiums.  I know this because my friend, whose husband works there, barely passed.  They don't smoke, but they are both overweight.  She passed, but he has both high BMI and high blood pressure.

That is astounding to me. Although I guess that the others *should* cancel the BMI out. Depending on what the 5th one is, I'd probably be close--I'm overweight by BMI standards (and admittedly in real life) and my BP will probably always be high (Thanks, genetics).
Maybe waist circumference?  I dunno, if I remember, I'll ask her when we are on our weekly walk/ gab session.

Waist circumference was used for my life insurance policy. Well, taken but not used - I was 8.5 months pregnant at the time, I basically looked like a hot air balloon!
Waist circumference is extremely biased against women anyway. When I was in the AF reserve, we had guys that would pass the waist measurements with a beer gut and women that would be in excellent physical condition and fail because they had naturally wide hips. I even had one friend that cut her diet down to 1000 calories a day (while still working out 2 hrs/day 6 days a week) to try and make the circumference so that she didn't fail her fitness assessment, even though she was capable of getting the maximum score in every other portion.

maco

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #962 on: February 05, 2016, 01:28:40 PM »

Waist circumference is extremely biased against women anyway. When I was in the AF reserve, we had guys that would pass the waist measurements with a beer gut and women that would be in excellent physical condition and fail because they had naturally wide hips. I even had one friend that cut her diet down to 1000 calories a day (while still working out 2 hrs/day 6 days a week) to try and make the circumference so that she didn't fail her fitness assessment, even though she was capable of getting the maximum score in every other portion.
Sounds like they didn't know where the measuring tape was supposed to go. Your anatomical waist is where you get creases in your sides/back when you do "I'm a little teapot," not wherever fashion happens to say your jeans should stop for this year's look.  My waist is a little above my belly button, on my floating ribs, nowhere near my hips.

JordanOfGilead

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #963 on: February 05, 2016, 01:43:00 PM »

Waist circumference is extremely biased against women anyway. When I was in the AF reserve, we had guys that would pass the waist measurements with a beer gut and women that would be in excellent physical condition and fail because they had naturally wide hips. I even had one friend that cut her diet down to 1000 calories a day (while still working out 2 hrs/day 6 days a week) to try and make the circumference so that she didn't fail her fitness assessment, even though she was capable of getting the maximum score in every other portion.
Sounds like they didn't know where the measuring tape was supposed to go. Your anatomical waist is where you get creases in your sides/back when you do "I'm a little teapot," not wherever fashion happens to say your jeans should stop for this year's look.  My waist is a little above my belly button, on my floating ribs, nowhere near my hips.
That kind of misunderstanding and "operator error" variation is another reason why waste circumference is such a bad indicator (they measured just above the hip bones, btw). Even when that's done correctly, it is still a biased measurement against women of certain body types and was frequently an issue with healthy people failing their height/weight/waist measurements.

onlykelsey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #964 on: February 05, 2016, 01:47:04 PM »
My sole financial guidance as a college student came from my grumpy elderly uncle.  He's said for years I should be planning on having at least 5 mn in today's dollars, which I accepted for a while but am now questioning.  I mentioned the idea of retiring early to him, and he mentioned that he and his wife (who don't buy anything on credit, eat at home 95% of the time, etc) spend $160K a year.  It honestly sort of threw me, sine I don't consider his lifestyle extravagant, while it's clearly not barebones.  It's all saved money, and I'm a fan of giving away/using money before you die rather than giving it to kids, but wow.

Helvegen

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #965 on: February 05, 2016, 01:54:21 PM »
Only the bottom right quadrant of the image is people you are talking about.  And that's 16%.

Of course everybody has a case of special snowflake syndrome, so they choose to believe they are in the 16%.

Yep. I don't know that many swole people that BMI would not properly vet, but I sure do know a lot of butthurt fat people that wish that BMI would not classify them as the overweight/obese people they actually are. I get it. I used to have a BMI in the mid 40s. I was in a lot of denial. I also thought I would not be fat anymore once I got down to 180 (30 BMI). Well got down there and I was still obviously overweight. It wasn't till I got to 140 that I really felt I looked like a normal weight and I now maintain in the 120s, BMI range of 20-21 for my height. Many pounds ago, I thought that weight would make me look like a spooky skeleton. NOPE.

I am in the best shape of my life now. I run about 25 miles a week. I don't get migraines or exercise headaches anymore. My TSH came way down after I lost the weight. Resting heart rate and blood pressure dropped like rocks. People respect the discipline and commitment it took to get here. I literally lost more weight than I weigh now - 270 to 125.

jengod

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #966 on: February 05, 2016, 02:14:02 PM »
I have a contribution to this thread.

Relative who owns Fugly Mansion he bought 3 years ago is trying to sell it for $500K gain. He bought it for $1.1M. He replaced the kitchen countertops with marble, put in some fancy kitchen appliances, redid a built-in to make room for a bigger TV, and redid a bathroom. I'd say he spent $50-75K on labor and materials. Updates notwithstanding, Fugly Mansion is out-of-date, badly arranged, poorly maintained and generally off-putting. And it has a man-made swamp in the backyard.

Fugly Mansion is not selling at $1.6M but he really, really just has to buy another $1.6M mansion the next county over Right! Now! so he's going to pay both mortgages for a while. He has the vague notion he can rent out Fugly Mansion or somehow otherwise make this work without going broke.

AUGGGGGHH!
Waste is lost profit made visible. #zerowastehome #permaculture

mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #967 on: February 05, 2016, 02:28:29 PM »
Quote
Waist circumference is extremely biased against women anyway. When I was in the AF reserve, we had guys that would pass the waist measurements with a beer gut and women that would be in excellent physical condition and fail because they had naturally wide hips. I even had one friend that cut her diet down to 1000 calories a day (while still working out 2 hrs/day 6 days a week) to try and make the circumference so that she didn't fail her fitness assessment, even though she was capable of getting the maximum score in every other portion.
I had similar problems in the Navy.  I have big hips, and I'm short.


Quote
I am in the best shape of my life now. I run about 25 miles a week. I don't get migraines or exercise headaches anymore. My TSH came way down after I lost the weight. Resting heart rate and blood pressure dropped like rocks. People respect the discipline and commitment it took to get here. I literally lost more weight than I weigh now - 270 to 125.

Sadly, people perhaps only respect it because it's visible.  The truth is, a lot of people put in the work, but it's not as visible, so it's not as respected.

MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #968 on: February 05, 2016, 02:33:35 PM »
Quote
Waist circumference is extremely biased against women anyway. When I was in the AF reserve, we had guys that would pass the waist measurements with a beer gut and women that would be in excellent physical condition and fail because they had naturally wide hips. I even had one friend that cut her diet down to 1000 calories a day (while still working out 2 hrs/day 6 days a week) to try and make the circumference so that she didn't fail her fitness assessment, even though she was capable of getting the maximum score in every other portion.
I had similar problems in the Navy.  I have big hips, and I'm short.

Reminds me of a story I had with the Marine Commandant, I can't recall his name. He was touring a base when an ordinary marine came up to him and politely told him that he was going to be discharged because he was over the weight requirement, even though he could beat the two mile time. The Commandant pulled out a watch and said, "Show me." The marine did, and the Commandant made sure that didn't get discharged. Don't know how true this is, but I've loved this story.

Sylly

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #969 on: February 05, 2016, 10:11:48 PM »
BMI is pretty good for something that only requires a height and a weight measurement, as opposed to having you lift your shirt and get out the calipers every time you go to the doctor.  In general the only people who I have seen have BMI not apply are slightly 'overweight' but bulked.  If you are bulked, you know it, and you probably aren't too concerned about weight loss in the first place. This never actually applies to people with BMI 40 who aren't lifting multiple hours a week.

Only the bottom right quadrant of the image is people you are talking about.  And that's 16%.

Of course everybody has a case of special snowflake syndrome, so they choose to believe they are in the 16%.

I do think that people put too much emphasis on being the right BMI when they should look to other health indicators as well, but other health indicators aren't as easy to ascertain as BMI.  I can't use a calculator online to find out my LDL/HDL or my blood pressure.  I also think things like: can you run a mile, can you do a pullup, etc. should be important also.

Coincidentally, there's a recent study on this (news article, paper) that suggests that the rate of misclassification by BMI isn't as low as 16%.

Quote
The study found that close to half of Americans who are considered “overweight” by virtue of their BMIs (47.4 percent, or 34.4 million people) are healthy, as are 19.8 million who are considered “obese.”
...

  • More than 30 percent of those with BMIs in the “normal” range — about 20.7 million people — are actually unhealthy based on their other health data.
  • More than 2 million people who are considered “very obese” by virtue of having a BMI of 35 or higher are actually healthy. That’s about 15 percent of Americans who are classified as very obese.

I hope people pay attention to this sort of studies, as I think the general trend toward using BMI as a factor for healthcare premiums is the wrong way to go.

Edited to add:
So based on the percentages quoted in the abstract and the US obesity statistics, that's about 36% of people that's misclassified if using BMI, and 27% who are affected negatively if higher BMI incurs higher premiums (i.e., get higher, unhealthy rate despite being actually healthy).
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 10:18:24 PM by Sylly »

coolistdude

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #970 on: February 07, 2016, 12:09:39 PM »
A couple weeks ago, while our my brother in law and sister in law gave us their nearly flawless couch for free (previously mentioned in this thread), my DW decided to make us all pizza for lunch. My brother in law commented how much he liked the pizza, and my wife smiled and said it was very inexpensive to make. My sister in law was perplexed by this, and commented that "eating food out is so much cheaper than making it at home." DW told her that the medium pizza costs about $2.50 to make and feeds me, DW and toddler without needing a side dish. Sometimes, I just do not get people. If you don't know the answer, just do some basic math.
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Nederstash

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #971 on: February 07, 2016, 12:23:40 PM »
I just made an account because my mother made a comment that definitely deserves to be up here. Don't get me wrong, I love her to bits, but she doesn't really get it. Whenever I bring up early retirement, I get the whole spiel: it can't be done, what would you do all day without work et cetera.

But then came the winning argument: she said that according to research (don't know which, she heard it on the radio), people who have nothing to do all day and are essentially bored, are more likely to ask to be euthanized.

As a Dutch legal professional, of course I could have summed up all the reasons why that's bullcrap, but I just promised not to get euthanized if I ever get bored of retirement and just left it at that.

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #972 on: February 07, 2016, 12:34:28 PM »
How can an adult think it is cheaper to eat out then to make it yourself at home?  I love to eat out but recognize that it costs much more than to eat at home.  Why did they no longer want the perfectly good couch?  I don't know anybody that replaces their furniture before it wears out.

ender

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #973 on: February 07, 2016, 12:57:17 PM »
How can an adult think it is cheaper to eat out then to make it yourself at home?  I love to eat out but recognize that it costs much more than to eat at home.  Why did they no longer want the perfectly good couch?  I don't know anybody that replaces their furniture before it wears out.

A lot of people have no clue how to cook.


Joggernot

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #974 on: February 07, 2016, 04:52:59 PM »
Why did they no longer want the perfectly good couch?  I don't know anybody that replaces their furniture before it wears out.
On Facebook I see something to the effect, "selling everything!  Decided we needed a new look."  They are selling three-year-old furniture because they want a "new look".  Aaarrrrgggghhhh.

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #975 on: February 07, 2016, 05:02:27 PM »
WE keep our couches, chairs until they wear out which is generally about 10-14 years. WE bought a dining room set of solid wood 40 years ago and still use it.  I have only had 2 sets of coffee & end tables. YOu buy what you like and then live with it. 

Dollar Slice

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #976 on: February 07, 2016, 06:06:37 PM »
How can an adult think it is cheaper to eat out then to make it yourself at home?

For some reason I'm picturing a conversation along the lines of "I mean, the oven costs a ton of money, and then you have to buy all those pots and pans and utensils, and I'd have to spend $30 on spices just for this one recipe!"
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Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #977 on: February 07, 2016, 06:34:09 PM »
A couple weeks ago, while our my brother in law and sister in law gave us their nearly flawless couch for free (previously mentioned in this thread), my DW decided to make us all pizza for lunch. My brother in law commented how much he liked the pizza, and my wife smiled and said it was very inexpensive to make. My sister in law was perplexed by this, and commented that "eating food out is so much cheaper than making it at home." DW told her that the medium pizza costs about $2.50 to make and feeds me, DW and toddler without needing a side dish. Sometimes, I just do not get people. If you don't know the answer, just do some basic math.

To be fair, that's having a stocked pantry and basic skills. The pattern I've typically seen is someone saying 'I'll cook more at home! It'll save money!' and then they go to an expensive grocery store and buy 2lb of flour (7$), a tiny jar of yeast (4$), cheese (5-6$), tomato sauce specifically billed for pizza (4$), and whatever topping they like (say, another 8$, because assuming meat... more if they're following a recipe that lists herbs and they buy some of each, even more if they don't have olive oil, etc). Easily a 30-40$ shopping trip. And then they get home, and they follow their recipe, but lacking usual kitchen skills it winds up being an ok-but-not-great pizza, and their conclusion, is, wow, could've ordered better for 20$. As opposed to how I make pizza: flour in 10kb bags for 8$, yeast in 1lb bricks for 3$ (lasts a year, and I make all our bread and pizza dough...), tomato sauce = can of tomatoes on sale = 1$, cheese = bought on sale in bulk = maybe 2$ worth of cheese on a pizza... yeah, your 2.50$US ain't far off from what we spend when we make pizza. Maybe add a dollar sometimes for specialty cheeses or veggies (made one last week with feta cheese and red onion... yum). It makes ZERO sense if you know how to shop and cook, but the people who think this usually don't, so... the pattern continues.

And to those who question people getting rid of couches: 2 of our 3 couches are from my mom's house, because (and I quote), they no longer matched her decor. They're comfy, they're great, they make an amazing tv room in the basement, and they were free. SCORE. But basically: it happens.


Making Cookies

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #978 on: February 07, 2016, 08:29:33 PM »
I understand it. Sometimes, you're just done with dealing with a car that doesn't work, and  by-gawd I'm willing to pay for one that I know will be reliable because it is new!

Depending on the loan amount, it may not be the most horrible thing in the world assuming she plans to keep it for 10 years or so. (And you highlighted it, she'll pay for food using the student loans)

Huh, that is funny coming from me. I just spent what I thought was an exorbitant amount of money on a 2006 Honda with 100k miles. But we'll have that for 3-5 years and we don't forsee losing a lot of money on it since (ignoring TTL) we paid about wholesale.

There ARE good+cheap+used cars. I've driven them all my life.

I've also had a car loan and limited income to pay for at the same time. What a numbskull idea (relative to my income level)!

My most recent used car purchase died one night as I pulled into the driveway - needed a fuel pump @ 155K miles.

My "funds limited" coworker seemed to be suspicious of that car when I purchased it b/c it was "too cheap to be good". When it died I got the "told you so" reaction.

We towed it to a mechanic friend of mine who has a lift (lousy weather for DIY driveway repairs). The tow was done with our other car that is nearing 300K miles and a tow rope. Nope, didn't need a $75 tow truck ride for 4 miles of country roads. We've done this before - DW & I. No sweat. Don't need a big car for a tow car either. Did it with our 2.0L four cylinder.

$250 for the part (lifetime warranty) plus $140 for labor and he was done by 9AM the next day.

Still, our used car broke down once. I suppose using typical consumerist logic I should give it to a dealer (trade-in) because it will forever be suspect. 

I'll mention here that the coworker's car has needed repairs multiple times over the past year and cost 6-7 times when purchased compared to what we paid for our car.

Coworker's car is newer and "prettier" but cheap/good/paid for makes a car very, very pretty to me... ;)

Will likely buy another new car eventually but we keep cars forever and I look at new cars like new clothes or vacations. Something nice to have IF-IF-IF you can afford it - reference my statement above that I was poor and had a car payment in the past. Would never repeat that mistake.

coolistdude

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #979 on: February 07, 2016, 08:34:35 PM »
How can an adult think it is cheaper to eat out then to make it yourself at home?  I love to eat out but recognize that it costs much more than to eat at home.  Why did they no longer want the perfectly good couch?  I don't know anybody that replaces their furniture before it wears out.

I have no idea. It just confuses me, especially when we aren't talking about $2 Costco pizza serving but a $10+ pizza. It boils down to wanting a $1700 couch from Costco that was too big for their living room. I mentioned the story earlier:

Quote
A couple weeks ago my sister in law called DW to inform us that they did not want their unscratched reclining loveseat anymore. They had instead gone to Costco (I love Costco but this is nuts) and purchased a $1700 giant three piece sectional couch that overpowered their living room and made it so fat people couldn't walk behind it to the rest of the house. My BIL apologized that the reclining feature on the loveseat sometimes needed coaxing to work. After owning it for a week, I know exactly how to get the troublesome side to work without issue. Then he told me they would need to find an appropriate house for this 3 piece couch to fit. I listened sympathetically like I do at work when people complain about money to their Starbucks cup.
The good: 27 years old, 1 car, not renting anymore.
The bad: Single income, only about $17k in retirement, and no FI date.
The ugly: 1 year ago I was doing much better but lost all possessions due to mold. It has been an emotional roller coaster.

Blog: http://bravelycontent.blogspot.com/

Making Cookies

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #980 on: February 07, 2016, 10:21:46 PM »
We just replaced a couch so we could have a sleeper couch for guests (small house).

Also, the old couch was beat. Foam in cushions was not longer supportive. Springs under cushions were not as strong as they once were. Was a cheap couch when it was new. It lasted ten years. Would last another ten in a bachelor's pad where appearance is not a high priority. I gave it to extended family but think it will wind up with one of my nephews in their first apartment.

Making Cookies

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #981 on: February 07, 2016, 10:28:14 PM »
The cost of making pizza remind me of having a home shop (like mine). Am able to accomplish many tasks, many repairs, many improvements for zero cost b/c the tools are always there. So is a far selection of hardware like bolts, screws, roll pins, cotter keys, etc.

You buy it all along slowly as you need it and then make use of it a good many times.

jengod

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #982 on: February 07, 2016, 11:54:25 PM »
A couple weeks ago, while our my brother in law and sister in law gave us their nearly flawless couch for free (previously mentioned in this thread), my DW decided to make us all pizza for lunch. My brother in law commented how much he liked the pizza, and my wife smiled and said it was very inexpensive to make. My sister in law was perplexed by this, and commented that "eating food out is so much cheaper than making it at home." DW told her that the medium pizza costs about $2.50 to make and feeds me, DW and toddler without needing a side dish. Sometimes, I just do not get people. If you don't know the answer, just do some basic math.

To be fair, that's having a stocked pantry and basic skills. The pattern I've typically seen is someone saying 'I'll cook more at home! It'll save money!' and then they go to an expensive grocery store and buy 2lb of flour (7$), a tiny jar of yeast (4$), cheese (5-6$), tomato sauce specifically billed for pizza (4$), and whatever topping they like (say, another 8$, because assuming meat... more if they're following a recipe that lists herbs and they buy some of each, even more if they don't have olive oil, etc). Easily a 30-40$ shopping trip. And then they get home, and they follow their recipe, but lacking usual kitchen skills it winds up being an ok-but-not-great pizza, and their conclusion, is, wow, could've ordered better for 20$. As opposed to how I make pizza: flour in 10kb bags for 8$, yeast in 1lb bricks for 3$ (lasts a year, and I make all our bread and pizza dough...), tomato sauce = can of tomatoes on sale = 1$, cheese = bought on sale in bulk = maybe 2$ worth of cheese on a pizza... yeah, your 2.50$US ain't far off from what we spend when we make pizza. Maybe add a dollar sometimes for specialty cheeses or veggies (made one last week with feta cheese and red onion... yum). It makes ZERO sense if you know how to shop and cook, but the people who think this usually don't, so... the pattern continues.

And to those who question people getting rid of couches: 2 of our 3 couches are from my mom's house, because (and I quote), they no longer matched her decor. They're comfy, they're great, they make an amazing tv room in the basement, and they were free. SCORE. But basically: it happens.

I really wish this forum had a LIKE function, because this post is great.
Waste is lost profit made visible. #zerowastehome #permaculture

coolistdude

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #983 on: February 08, 2016, 11:05:00 AM »
A couple weeks ago, while our my brother in law and sister in law gave us their nearly flawless couch for free (previously mentioned in this thread), my DW decided to make us all pizza for lunch. My brother in law commented how much he liked the pizza, and my wife smiled and said it was very inexpensive to make. My sister in law was perplexed by this, and commented that "eating food out is so much cheaper than making it at home." DW told her that the medium pizza costs about $2.50 to make and feeds me, DW and toddler without needing a side dish. Sometimes, I just do not get people. If you don't know the answer, just do some basic math.

To be fair, that's having a stocked pantry and basic skills. The pattern I've typically seen is someone saying 'I'll cook more at home! It'll save money!' and then they go to an expensive grocery store and buy 2lb of flour (7$), a tiny jar of yeast (4$), cheese (5-6$), tomato sauce specifically billed for pizza (4$), and whatever topping they like (say, another 8$, because assuming meat... more if they're following a recipe that lists herbs and they buy some of each, even more if they don't have olive oil, etc). Easily a 30-40$ shopping trip. And then they get home, and they follow their recipe, but lacking usual kitchen skills it winds up being an ok-but-not-great pizza, and their conclusion, is, wow, could've ordered better for 20$. As opposed to how I make pizza: flour in 10kb bags for 8$, yeast in 1lb bricks for 3$ (lasts a year, and I make all our bread and pizza dough...), tomato sauce = can of tomatoes on sale = 1$, cheese = bought on sale in bulk = maybe 2$ worth of cheese on a pizza... yeah, your 2.50$US ain't far off from what we spend when we make pizza. Maybe add a dollar sometimes for specialty cheeses or veggies (made one last week with feta cheese and red onion... yum). It makes ZERO sense if you know how to shop and cook, but the people who think this usually don't, so... the pattern continues.

And to those who question people getting rid of couches: 2 of our 3 couches are from my mom's house, because (and I quote), they no longer matched her decor. They're comfy, they're great, they make an amazing tv room in the basement, and they were free. SCORE. But basically: it happens.

I really wish this forum had a LIKE function, because this post is great.

+1. Something to add to making pizza cheaply is that we will buy the very large can of tomato sauce from Costco, season it, and then freeze it. Voila! $2-$3 is enough pizza sauce for 12+ pizzas (I don't have the exact numbers since my wife does this). We use the Tightwad Gazette pizza recipe (book 2).
The good: 27 years old, 1 car, not renting anymore.
The bad: Single income, only about $17k in retirement, and no FI date.
The ugly: 1 year ago I was doing much better but lost all possessions due to mold. It has been an emotional roller coaster.

Blog: http://bravelycontent.blogspot.com/

Pooperman

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #984 on: February 08, 2016, 11:18:33 AM »
A couple weeks ago, while our my brother in law and sister in law gave us their nearly flawless couch for free (previously mentioned in this thread), my DW decided to make us all pizza for lunch. My brother in law commented how much he liked the pizza, and my wife smiled and said it was very inexpensive to make. My sister in law was perplexed by this, and commented that "eating food out is so much cheaper than making it at home." DW told her that the medium pizza costs about $2.50 to make and feeds me, DW and toddler without needing a side dish. Sometimes, I just do not get people. If you don't know the answer, just do some basic math.

To be fair, that's having a stocked pantry and basic skills. The pattern I've typically seen is someone saying 'I'll cook more at home! It'll save money!' and then they go to an expensive grocery store and buy 2lb of flour (7$), a tiny jar of yeast (4$), cheese (5-6$), tomato sauce specifically billed for pizza (4$), and whatever topping they like (say, another 8$, because assuming meat... more if they're following a recipe that lists herbs and they buy some of each, even more if they don't have olive oil, etc). Easily a 30-40$ shopping trip. And then they get home, and they follow their recipe, but lacking usual kitchen skills it winds up being an ok-but-not-great pizza, and their conclusion, is, wow, could've ordered better for 20$. As opposed to how I make pizza: flour in 10kb bags for 8$, yeast in 1lb bricks for 3$ (lasts a year, and I make all our bread and pizza dough...), tomato sauce = can of tomatoes on sale = 1$, cheese = bought on sale in bulk = maybe 2$ worth of cheese on a pizza... yeah, your 2.50$US ain't far off from what we spend when we make pizza. Maybe add a dollar sometimes for specialty cheeses or veggies (made one last week with feta cheese and red onion... yum). It makes ZERO sense if you know how to shop and cook, but the people who think this usually don't, so... the pattern continues.

And to those who question people getting rid of couches: 2 of our 3 couches are from my mom's house, because (and I quote), they no longer matched her decor. They're comfy, they're great, they make an amazing tv room in the basement, and they were free. SCORE. But basically: it happens.

I really wish this forum had a LIKE function, because this post is great.

+1. Something to add to making pizza cheaply is that we will buy the very large can of tomato sauce from Costco, season it, and then freeze it. Voila! $2-$3 is enough pizza sauce for 12+ pizzas (I don't have the exact numbers since my wife does this). We use the Tightwad Gazette pizza recipe (book 2).

To add to this, pizza sauce differs from pasta sauce in that it has honey in it. That's the main difference really.

maco

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #985 on: February 08, 2016, 11:43:38 AM »
And to those who question people getting rid of couches: 2 of our 3 couches are from my mom's house, because (and I quote), they no longer matched her decor. They're comfy, they're great, they make an amazing tv room in the basement, and they were free. SCORE. But basically: it happens.
Were my parents unusual in having our sleeper sofa reupholstered? They had it done professionally, which I'm sure cost more than doing it themselves, but also I'm sure was less than a new couch.

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #986 on: February 08, 2016, 11:47:13 AM »
Sometimes redoing the upholstery on a couch costs more then a new one. It really depends and the structure of the ouch has to still be in good shape. I got married at 18 and could not cook. Guess what-I figured it out-it is not rocket science.  I don't love cooking. It is a task I do like many others. Over the years I have gotten to be a much better cook. It is not that hard to make decent meals. I like to eat out once/week but to expensive and unhealthy to do more then that.  When we were young we never could afford to eat out.

mtn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #987 on: February 08, 2016, 11:56:18 AM »
A couple weeks ago, while our my brother in law and sister in law gave us their nearly flawless couch for free (previously mentioned in this thread), my DW decided to make us all pizza for lunch. My brother in law commented how much he liked the pizza, and my wife smiled and said it was very inexpensive to make. My sister in law was perplexed by this, and commented that "eating food out is so much cheaper than making it at home." DW told her that the medium pizza costs about $2.50 to make and feeds me, DW and toddler without needing a side dish. Sometimes, I just do not get people. If you don't know the answer, just do some basic math.

To be fair, that's having a stocked pantry and basic skills. The pattern I've typically seen is someone saying 'I'll cook more at home! It'll save money!' and then they go to an expensive grocery store and buy 2lb of flour (7$), a tiny jar of yeast (4$), cheese (5-6$), tomato sauce specifically billed for pizza (4$), and whatever topping they like (say, another 8$, because assuming meat... more if they're following a recipe that lists herbs and they buy some of each, even more if they don't have olive oil, etc). Easily a 30-40$ shopping trip. And then they get home, and they follow their recipe, but lacking usual kitchen skills it winds up being an ok-but-not-great pizza, and their conclusion, is, wow, could've ordered better for 20$. As opposed to how I make pizza: flour in 10kb bags for 8$, yeast in 1lb bricks for 3$ (lasts a year, and I make all our bread and pizza dough...), tomato sauce = can of tomatoes on sale = 1$, cheese = bought on sale in bulk = maybe 2$ worth of cheese on a pizza... yeah, your 2.50$US ain't far off from what we spend when we make pizza. Maybe add a dollar sometimes for specialty cheeses or veggies (made one last week with feta cheese and red onion... yum). It makes ZERO sense if you know how to shop and cook, but the people who think this usually don't, so... the pattern continues.

And to those who question people getting rid of couches: 2 of our 3 couches are from my mom's house, because (and I quote), they no longer matched her decor. They're comfy, they're great, they make an amazing tv room in the basement, and they were free. SCORE. But basically: it happens.

I really wish this forum had a LIKE function, because this post is great.

+1. Something to add to making pizza cheaply is that we will buy the very large can of tomato sauce from Costco, season it, and then freeze it. Voila! $2-$3 is enough pizza sauce for 12+ pizzas (I don't have the exact numbers since my wife does this). We use the Tightwad Gazette pizza recipe (book 2).

To add to this, pizza sauce differs from pasta sauce in that it has honey in it. That's the main difference really.

This is like saying that a PC differs from a Mac because a PC has an intel processor. I've only had two pizza sauces with honey. Both were horrible. Brown Sugar is the correct method IF you like a sweet sauce.

The cost of making pizza right is pretty high in my experience unless you're making enough to feed about 30 people--at which point the time/effort benefit of getting carryout outweighs the cost benefit. It is one of the few foods that I've come across that it makes more sense to get it from the restaurant because I can't do it right for a cheap enough price.

I can do a fair facsimile of a Domino's/Papa John's/Little Caesars, but those are all cheap and not really good anyways. So at home from scratch I usually only make a white pizza--dough, butter/garlic combo, mozzarella and parmesan, then however many or little that you like of any vegetables or meats. Otherwise I just can't do a good enough job for cheap enough/fast enough to make it worth it.

I suppose it should be mentioned that having grown up in Chicagoland and living in Chicago now, I'm pretty picky with my pizza. (No, I'm not talking about deep dish either--completely different conversation)

rockstache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #988 on: February 08, 2016, 12:18:18 PM »

Sometimes redoing the upholstery on a couch costs more then a new one.

Seriously. My mom got a really expensive couch from someone years ago and now would like a new slipcover because it's ripped and faded. They're selling online from $800-$1000! For a slipcover!!

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #989 on: February 08, 2016, 12:26:34 PM »
Kohl's has slip covers from about 100.00 and they are always having half price sales.

rockstache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #990 on: February 08, 2016, 12:42:21 PM »
Yeah but it's a non-standard size, so normal covers don't fit. Bleh.

mtn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #991 on: February 08, 2016, 12:44:05 PM »
We have a chair that I want to get reupholstered. Should be easy, since it is basically just 2 couch cushions. Over $300.

I'm considering learning to do it myself; how hard could it be?

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #992 on: February 08, 2016, 12:54:22 PM »
I am not the worlds greatest cook but am confused when people say pizza is expensive and difficult to make. I find it just the opposite.

Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #993 on: February 08, 2016, 12:59:25 PM »

Sometimes redoing the upholstery on a couch costs more then a new one.

Seriously. My mom got a really expensive couch from someone years ago and now would like a new slipcover because it's ripped and faded. They're selling online from $800-$1000! For a slipcover!!

We got ours on Overstock (cats scratched the hell out of the couches, and we're not getting them reupholstered until we no longer have cats) for about 60-80$ per slipcover. Worth it for us, if only becuase you can wash them when they get too cat-hair-ed. ;)

For 800$, I can re-cover the couch in a really nice fabric. And pay someone to do it for me.

mtn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #994 on: February 08, 2016, 01:16:56 PM »
I am not the worlds greatest cook but am confused when people say pizza is expensive and difficult to make. I find it just the opposite.

The dough alone takes me about 45 minutes, and that is if I'm cheating and not letting it sit overnight. The sauce is another 30 minutes to an hour. At the end of it, I'd have to clean 2 mixing bowls, a cookie sheet/pizza stone, a sauce pan, rolling pin, and the entire counter, and since I used a lot of olive oil it was a real pain in the butt to get the rolling pin and cookie sheet clean. Then the cost comes in with the cheese--this stuff is going to give you a pizza that is pretty "Meh".



I usually ended up spending about $10 in cheese per pizza. No idea how much my dough and sauce costed--probably about $1 for the dough and $5 for the sauce (I used a beer in my sauce). So let's call it a $15 pizza. It was really good, but it isn't worth that much time and effort when I can get one that is as good or better from the place 100 feet away from my house for $20. Back when I was in college? Sure, absolutely. If I lived in certain parts of the country where good pizza doesn't exist (Lookin at you, St. Louis)? Definitely. But not worth it around here.

If you want to get a Boboli crust and pizza sauce from a can, sure--not hard or expensive, but it tastes about like monkeybutt to me at that point anyways and isn't any cheaper than Little Caesars. No thanks.


EDIT: I should mention that in general I am a really good cook, as is my wife. For both of us, we were raised with moms/dads who cooked most meals and going out was a real treat. We didn't go to Outback Steakhouse, we went to a real restaurant. We typically don't go out unless we're really pressed for time or it is a birthday, most things we can make better and cheaper than a restaurant.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 01:20:20 PM by mtn »

coolistdude

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #995 on: February 08, 2016, 01:21:58 PM »
A couple weeks ago, while our my brother in law and sister in law gave us their nearly flawless couch for free (previously mentioned in this thread), my DW decided to make us all pizza for lunch. My brother in law commented how much he liked the pizza, and my wife smiled and said it was very inexpensive to make. My sister in law was perplexed by this, and commented that "eating food out is so much cheaper than making it at home." DW told her that the medium pizza costs about $2.50 to make and feeds me, DW and toddler without needing a side dish. Sometimes, I just do not get people. If you don't know the answer, just do some basic math.

To be fair, that's having a stocked pantry and basic skills. The pattern I've typically seen is someone saying 'I'll cook more at home! It'll save money!' and then they go to an expensive grocery store and buy 2lb of flour (7$), a tiny jar of yeast (4$), cheese (5-6$), tomato sauce specifically billed for pizza (4$), and whatever topping they like (say, another 8$, because assuming meat... more if they're following a recipe that lists herbs and they buy some of each, even more if they don't have olive oil, etc). Easily a 30-40$ shopping trip. And then they get home, and they follow their recipe, but lacking usual kitchen skills it winds up being an ok-but-not-great pizza, and their conclusion, is, wow, could've ordered better for 20$. As opposed to how I make pizza: flour in 10kb bags for 8$, yeast in 1lb bricks for 3$ (lasts a year, and I make all our bread and pizza dough...), tomato sauce = can of tomatoes on sale = 1$, cheese = bought on sale in bulk = maybe 2$ worth of cheese on a pizza... yeah, your 2.50$US ain't far off from what we spend when we make pizza. Maybe add a dollar sometimes for specialty cheeses or veggies (made one last week with feta cheese and red onion... yum). It makes ZERO sense if you know how to shop and cook, but the people who think this usually don't, so... the pattern continues.

And to those who question people getting rid of couches: 2 of our 3 couches are from my mom's house, because (and I quote), they no longer matched her decor. They're comfy, they're great, they make an amazing tv room in the basement, and they were free. SCORE. But basically: it happens.

I really wish this forum had a LIKE function, because this post is great.

+1. Something to add to making pizza cheaply is that we will buy the very large can of tomato sauce from Costco, season it, and then freeze it. Voila! $2-$3 is enough pizza sauce for 12+ pizzas (I don't have the exact numbers since my wife does this). We use the Tightwad Gazette pizza recipe (book 2).

To add to this, pizza sauce differs from pasta sauce in that it has honey in it. That's the main difference really.

This is like saying that a PC differs from a Mac because a PC has an intel processor. I've only had two pizza sauces with honey. Both were horrible. Brown Sugar is the correct method IF you like a sweet sauce.

The cost of making pizza right is pretty high in my experience unless you're making enough to feed about 30 people--at which point the time/effort benefit of getting carryout outweighs the cost benefit. It is one of the few foods that I've come across that it makes more sense to get it from the restaurant because I can't do it right for a cheap enough price.

I can do a fair facsimile of a Domino's/Papa John's/Little Caesars, but those are all cheap and not really good anyways. So at home from scratch I usually only make a white pizza--dough, butter/garlic combo, mozzarella and parmesan, then however many or little that you like of any vegetables or meats. Otherwise I just can't do a good enough job for cheap enough/fast enough to make it worth it.

I suppose it should be mentioned that having grown up in Chicagoland and living in Chicago now, I'm pretty picky with my pizza. (No, I'm not talking about deep dish either--completely different conversation)

You bring up a good point. DW makes batches of dough, sauce, and cheese for pizzas. We freeze 'em and then when pizza Monday is here, she pulls the ingredients out, and I prepare the food. Without toppings, it is about $2.50 for 1 pizza (serves 2.5 people). It takes me about 25 mins to make the pizza (including cook time), and it is very fresh. Much better than a $5.55 Little Caesars.

I think this boils down to a combination of MMM and Jack Bauer. Just figure it out, do it and save the effort of making excuses. Of course, for some people, take out may be better if you are making six figures a year and  working toward FI. But in my case, DW is a homemaker so we get to be creative with saving money. I'm not looking to start an argument, just explaining why we do what we do :)
The good: 27 years old, 1 car, not renting anymore.
The bad: Single income, only about $17k in retirement, and no FI date.
The ugly: 1 year ago I was doing much better but lost all possessions due to mold. It has been an emotional roller coaster.

Blog: http://bravelycontent.blogspot.com/

mtn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #996 on: February 08, 2016, 01:27:17 PM »

You bring up a good point. DW makes batches of dough, sauce, and cheese for pizzas. We freeze 'em
I think this boils down to a combination of MMM and Jack Bauer. Just figure it out, do it and save the effort of making excuses. Of course, for some people, take out may be better if you are making six figures a year and  working toward FI. But in my case, DW is a homemaker so we get to be creative with saving money. I'm not looking to start an argument, just explaining why we do what we do :)

Bah, my dough for some reason doesn't freeze well. I did try this.

And you're still missing good cheese if it is only costing you $3 or less! Unless you have some cheese hookup I'm unaware of.

DTaggart

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #997 on: February 08, 2016, 01:28:37 PM »
I know that my dad has a lot of open lines of credit just to keep his score up (Mortgage, mortgage (second house), auto, auto, credit card, credit card, credit card)--all of them could be paid off now, but he likes his 800 something score. Knowing him though, I doubt that it is actually costing him anything--he probably carries such a low balance on all the credit cards that he doesn't really even get a hit.

The only other person I am acquainted with that I know has an 800 something score is leveraged up to his eyeballs on everything and probably is paycheck to paycheck. But he has never missed a payment; he can be trusted, while I, with my one credit card, cannot, even though I just paid cash for a nice car and have over $20k in liquid or near liquid funds.

When I last saw my score (a year and half ago maybe?) it was just over 800. My mortgage was paid off several years prior, cars have been paid off for years. The only "debt" I have are 3-4 credit cards with very high limits that get paid in full each month.

Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #998 on: February 08, 2016, 01:30:04 PM »
Huh. Interesting. I'm very Italian, pizza-wise: thin crust, thin non-sweet sauce, fresh cheese. For the crust, I usually use Ricardo's recipe (35 minutes, most of which aren't active effort - thank you, Kitchen Aid dough hook!). Sauce = can of tomatoes put through the blender with a bit of salt and pepper. Cheese... that depends. Non-schmancy cheese would be a thin layer of sharp cheddar or mozzarella, but the family likes the cheddar better (5$ for 2lb on sale, but you need to grate it yourself). I've also used sliced fresh mozzarella balls (2 for 8$ at Costco, you need 1 for a pizza that will feed 2 adults and a child), dollops of ricotta or ricotta salata (which I make), or feta cheese (less than 3$). Add slivered fresh basil leaves in season, and you're coming pretty close to a trattoria. :)

I'm still at less than an hour of active effort, 2 bowls, and a pizza stone, and less than 5$CAD to feed 2 adults...

Though, to be fair, my calculations might be jiggered in the opposite direction: we live in the country. We don't get delivery, the nearest (crap) pizza is a half-hour drive away, and the nearest decent (but not as good as mine) pizza is a full 45 minute drive from our house... so it's not really something we consider an option.

mtn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #999 on: February 08, 2016, 01:33:32 PM »
Huh. Interesting. I'm very Italian, pizza-wise: thin crust, thin non-sweet sauce, fresh cheese. For the crust, I usually use Ricardo's recipe (35 minutes, most of which aren't active effort - thank you, Kitchen Aid dough hook!). Sauce = can of tomatoes put through the blender with a bit of salt and pepper. Cheese... that depends. Non-schmancy cheese would be a thin layer of sharp cheddar or mozzarella, but the family likes the cheddar better (5$ for 2lb on sale, but you need to grate it yourself). I've also used sliced fresh mozzarella balls (2 for 8$ at Costco, you need 1 for a pizza that will feed 2 adults and a child), dollops of ricotta or ricotta salata (which I make), or feta cheese (less than 3$). Add slivered fresh basil leaves in season, and you're coming pretty close to a trattoria. :)

I'm still at less than an hour of active effort, 2 bowls, and a pizza stone, and less than 5$CAD to feed 2 adults...

Though, to be fair, my calculations might be jiggered in the opposite direction: we live in the country. We don't get delivery, the nearest (crap) pizza is a half-hour drive away, and the nearest decent (but not as good as mine) pizza is a full 45 minute drive from our house... so it's not really something we consider an option.

My wife and I have been talking about getting that dough hook--we have the mixer, this should be an obvious way to use it. I just don't know that it would make me make pizza all that much more, and I don't think I'd use it for anything else.