Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 2516578 times)

Bettersafe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6000 on: August 19, 2020, 12:25:16 PM »
Ahhh new entries.  I haven't been posting since this forum was saved at my work computer and I just now got back to work..partially..Covid has really put a crimp in plans in general hasn't it?  Anyway I have been still living with my financial that doesn't get it..and after a nearly a year and a half of paying no bills at all he paid $1000 towards our current rent of $1303.  Ironically that put us into credit status since I had prepaid $703 of it during the month of July.
Not sure what you mean by "my financial", but pretty sure it's not something good for you...

I second Dicey on this....

Plina

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6001 on: August 19, 2020, 01:15:59 PM »
Ahhh new entries.  I haven't been posting since this forum was saved at my work computer and I just now got back to work..partially..Covid has really put a crimp in plans in general hasn't it?  Anyway I have been still living with my financial that doesn't get it..and after a nearly a year and a half of paying no bills at all he paid $1000 towards our current rent of $1303.  Ironically that put us into credit status since I had prepaid $703 of it during the month of July.
Not sure what you mean by "my financial", but pretty sure it's not something good for you...

I second Dicey on this....

I guessed it was her fiance, that she seems to be supporting. Based on that he doesnít pay for anything I can agree on the not good part.

Model96

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6002 on: August 19, 2020, 04:20:26 PM »
Ahhh new entries.  I haven't been posting since this forum was saved at my work computer and I just now got back to work..partially..Covid has really put a crimp in plans in general hasn't it?  Anyway I have been still living with my financial that doesn't get it..and after a nearly a year and a half of paying no bills at all he paid $1000 towards our current rent of $1303.  Ironically that put us into credit status since I had prepaid $703 of it during the month of July.
Not sure what you mean by "my financial", but pretty sure it's not something good for you...

I second Dicey on this....

I guessed it was her fiance, that she seems to be supporting. Based on that he doesnít pay for anything I can agree on the not good part.

'Fiance' or 'financial'.........auto correct strikes again or is it a Freudian?? LoL

marty998

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6003 on: August 19, 2020, 04:28:30 PM »
Ahhh new entries.  I haven't been posting since this forum was saved at my work computer and I just now got back to work..partially..Covid has really put a crimp in plans in general hasn't it?  Anyway I have been still living with my financial that doesn't get it..and after a nearly a year and a half of paying no bills at all he paid $1000 towards our current rent of $1303.  Ironically that put us into credit status since I had prepaid $703 of it during the month of July.
Not sure what you mean by "my financial", but pretty sure it's not something good for you...

I second Dicey on this....

I guessed it was her fiance, that she seems to be supporting. Based on that he doesnít pay for anything I can agree on the not good part.

'Fiance' or 'financial'.........auto correct strikes again or is it a Freudian?? LoL

ďLiabilityĒ works as a nickname here!

LetItGrow

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6004 on: September 13, 2020, 08:02:19 PM »
Sis and I received a low six figure inheritance in 2004. Her husband recently remarked (with a bit of attitude) 'you probably still have every dollar' I didnít reply but thought 'true, and every one of those dollars now has a couple friends around'.

I think they are decently smart, but not sure. And most importantly I donít care. I only talk to them when I have to, which is not often.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6005 on: September 13, 2020, 08:08:47 PM »
Sis and I received a low six figure inheritance in 2004. Her husband recently remarked (with a bit of attitude) 'you probably still have every dollar' I didnít reply but thought 'true, and every one of those dollars now has a couple friends around'.

I don't care when people want to spend their money on things they enjoy rather than save and invest it. 

But it's annoying as hell to get the jealous attitude from folks who did that and grudge that you didn't.

AMandM

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6006 on: September 14, 2020, 08:57:24 AM »
Sis and I received a low six figure inheritance in 2004. Her husband recently remarked (with a bit of attitude) 'you probably still have every dollar' I didn’t reply but thought 'true, and every one of those dollars now has a couple friends around'.

I don't care when people want to spend their money on things they enjoy rather than save and invest it. 

But it's annoying as hell to get the jealous attitude from folks who did that and grudge that you didn't.

I assumed the attitude was contempt, not jealousy. Which is also annoying.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6007 on: September 14, 2020, 10:04:40 AM »
Sis and I received a low six figure inheritance in 2004. Her husband recently remarked (with a bit of attitude) 'you probably still have every dollar' I didnít reply but thought 'true, and every one of those dollars now has a couple friends around'.

I don't care when people want to spend their money on things they enjoy rather than save and invest it. 

But it's annoying as hell to get the jealous attitude from folks who did that and grudge that you didn't.

I assumed the attitude was contempt, not jealousy. Which is also annoying.

Wow.   Anyone that petulantly stupid quickly
 goes on on my "don't give a damn about" list.    Shame about your sister being married to him.

jinga nation

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6008 on: September 17, 2020, 02:25:32 PM »
Sis and I received a low six figure inheritance in 2004. Her husband recently remarked (with a bit of attitude) 'you probably still have every dollar' I didnít reply but thought 'true, and every one of those dollars now has a couple friends around'.

I don't care when people want to spend their money on things they enjoy rather than save and invest it. 

But it's annoying as hell to get the jealous attitude from folks who did that and grudge that you didn't.

I assumed the attitude was contempt, not jealousy. Which is also annoying.

Wow.   Anyone that petulantly stupid quickly
 goes on on my "don't give a damn about" list.    Shame about your sister being married to him.

If I were @LetItGrow, and if the sister was within earshot, I'd say "It's a shame that she married someone dumber than a bag of rocks. At least rocks can be polished."

YYK

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6009 on: September 21, 2020, 04:27:42 PM »
Have a brother in law who pays 6% interest on a mortgage with about 15 years remaining and refuses to refinance even though can easily get 2.5% interest 15 year fixed rate mortgage now with no closing costs.  Reason is thinks that besides the "hassles" is he gets to deduct more interest on his tax return on what is paying now while ignoring when I explained that even with the tax deduction is still paying a lot more overall every year.

Besides this also paid $60 per person for a family of 3 for some premium lounge access at Hong Kong airport while transitting even though has a priority pass card from one of his credit cards that would've included access to the exact same freaking lounge at no cost (And argued with me, wouldn't listen when I explained this once again). 

He keeps getting the latest IPhones for himself and wife every year and keeps all the old ones (not sell or trade in) as claims somehow all their personal data can somehow be extracted even if does a factory reset on the phones. 

Pays for premium gas for a Honda Accord (car will "run better" as per him).  This is besides a bunch of other things I've observed them do over the years, somehow finds ways to spend money I didnt think possible, and believes that everything is automatically better by spending more money in any case! 

All this on less than a third of our annual income which for them is barely above 6 figures.

I know someone who has a similar attitude, though not nearly to the same degree. "This costs a lot of money, so it's better!" ???

TomTX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6010 on: September 21, 2020, 07:01:41 PM »
"You would rather pay the bank $3 to avoid paying $1 in taxes? How does that work out?"

gatortator

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6011 on: September 22, 2020, 07:09:18 PM »
"You would rather pay the bank $3 to avoid paying $1 in taxes? How does that work out?"

Tax wise but fee foolish.

 We have family who are shining examples of this thought process.  23 year old me paid attention and learned from their mistakes but sadly they never did.

Silverwood

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6012 on: September 25, 2020, 01:52:28 PM »
My brother lost his license and the guy who drives him to work is sick this week. So he messaged me asking if i wanted to make some money. Cab ride is $20 one way.  I figured if he gave me $20 which would pay for gas thatd be good enough. Family discount and all that.

Well today is Friday and i have yet to see any money. I drove him to the bank to deposit money after work. Didnt see a dime then. Drove him to McDonald's for food. He complained about our dollar compared to the States  after ordering $300 in vitamins. Last night he cabbed home after going out for wings with the boys. Complained about wasting food from his $80 dollar/week food delivery box.

Did i mention im on mat leave and am budgeted down to the last dollar.  Im not asking for  the money. Id even be ok if he said hed help me out on the weekend with some projects im finishing. But nope he will end up being too busy.

Last time I fall for this. Its  because im excited to see him. Im bored at home and its not a big deal to drive him. But i cant handle his entitlement and lack of self awareness anymore.

sherr

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6013 on: September 25, 2020, 02:35:09 PM »
My brother lost his license and the guy who drives him to work is sick this week. So he messaged me asking if i wanted to make some money. Cab ride is $20 one way.  I figured if he gave me $20 which would pay for gas thatd be good enough. Family discount and all that.

Well today is Friday and i have yet to see any money. I drove him to the bank to deposit money after work. Didnt see a dime then. Drove him to McDonald's for food. He complained about our dollar compared to the States  after ordering $300 in vitamins. Last night he cabbed home after going out for wings with the boys. Complained about wasting food from his $80 dollar/week food delivery box.

Did i mention im on mat leave and am budgeted down to the last dollar.  Im not asking for  the money. Id even be ok if he said hed help me out on the weekend with some projects im finishing. But nope he will end up being too busy.

Last time I fall for this. Its  because im excited to see him. Im bored at home and its not a big deal to drive him. But i cant handle his entitlement and lack of self awareness anymore.

Wait, did you ask for $20, or just assume that he'd give it to you? I mean I guess that if he asked you if you "wanted to make some money" then he ought to give you something sometime. But beyond that I'd say you're 49% to blame here for not specifying things beforehand and then being mad when your expectations are not met. Next time just be specific and communicate your expectations and it won't blow up into a whole "thing".
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 03:05:23 PM by sherr »

Silverwood

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6014 on: September 25, 2020, 02:59:07 PM »
We talked about it. He told me cabs are $20.  He was the one who texted me asking if i wanted to make some money for this week.  He said hed rather pay me than pay a cab


Also its not a thing. Its not worth it to me to make it a big deal. I was mostly venting here because he just doesnt get it. Hes 35.  I said i would do it.  I thought he would give me something because of the way he worded it.  Since he didnt, i just adjust for next time. Meaning i wont do it.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 03:03:35 PM by Silverwood »

chrisgermany

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6015 on: September 26, 2020, 12:24:55 AM »
Ask him for the money. You also should have told him you'd be happy for the leftovers of the food box.
Give him the chance to improve.
 It is not a big thing to nicely remind him next time you see him.

alienbogey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6016 on: October 04, 2020, 09:37:03 AM »
This post is to provide some follow up to the post quoted below that I made some time ago. 

The original is long, so Cliff Notes:  Financially responsible son marries financially horribly irresponsible woman, she prevails, they rack up tens of thousands in debt and end up in a significantly negative monthly cash flow situation.  We rescue them and set them up in a living situation that will allow them to save their sinking financial ship, if they will only do so.

Note:  This saga from parental rescue to today takes place over 2.5 years.

I could write a long essay but instead I'll give the cliff notes.

Son (young 20's, no debt, savings, paid cash for used car) marries woman with issues but he loves her.  His call.  He has a strange inability to say no to her and she introduces him to spending.  It's like watching someone go from a gateway drug to harder stuff as they buy all kinds of crap including starting a collection of old video games.  He's in the service and they have a new child, he's getting out in a few weeks without a solid job lined up, AND THEY BUY A NEW CAR.

DIL quote #1:  "We bought it now because we know that no one will finance us once we get out of the military in two weeks."

Evil Manipulative Mother In Law (EMMIL) had visited for the birth of the child (staying in our home for 3 weeks) and now she begins an intensive campaign of manipulative emotional hostage taking along with outright factual lies to get the young family to move across the country to be closer to her.  It works, and they spend a crap ton of money (financed by selling son's paid-for car) to move to where education and job prospect pies-in-the-sky have been promised by EMMIL.  More poor financial decisions on housing (a too big house is rented), schooling (GI Bill tuition wasted), training for non-existent job prospects (lies by both PIL), etc. etc. 

Throughout this debacle we have offered our opinions when asked, sometimes not when asked, and then shut our mouths and watched the train wreck.  DIL has consistently ignored us and instead acted on her mother's advice.

Young family finally clues in about EMMIL and moves 5 states away, both taking low paying jobs but getting away from the poison. 

DIL quote #2:  "I guess we shouldn't have been taking financial advice from people [her parents] who have been bankrupt four times." 

 [And ignoring advice from her parents in law, us, who paid for college for kids with no loans required, have paid off their mortgage, have zero debt of any kind, and can retire any time they please.]

They finally start listening to us and opening their financial books.  Tons of debt (half student debt brought into the marriage), a monthly cash flow of -$500 and no way to fix that, behind on rent, utilities, etc.  They'll be living under an overpass in 6 months.

We bail them out enough to bring them home and get them into a living situation.  Son gets job and starts looking for a better one.  DIL re-passes her state boards and starts working part time.  They start listening to us on money.  A decision is made to not declare bankruptcy.  They work out repayment plans with creditors.  Credit cards save one are paid off and they're working on the last one.

And, lo & behold, it's DIL who has taken charge of the family finances and is doing all this.  There have been a few relapses (a $200 Christmas gift for hubby) but, by and large, she's shopping at thrift stores, clipping coupons, accumulating a small emergency fund, etc. etc.

DIL quote #3:  "I think in a few years we'll be able to start saving for a down payment."


There have been missteps along the way.  From another post of mine here on MMM from their narrative:

"Relatives:  Well into 5 digits of debt, at current income/spending levels will take approximately forever to pay off, husband recently couldn't get security clearance for significantly better job due to debt status.  Upon hearing our made-gently-as-possible suggestion that perhaps they don't need to go through case after case of carbonated, lightly flavored canned water, and that wife maybe doesn't actually NEED to buy enough ugly Christmas sweaters that she has a different one for each day of December (her stated goal), this was the reply:

"But we want to enjoy life." "

So, let's get caught up, shall we?  (I'll try to be brief.)

DIL was running the family finances and doing much, much better, but has a self-confessed impulse shopping/spending problem.  [Insert gigantic parental eye-roll here]  Finally, son re-assumed the Chancellor of the Exchequer role and things improved further.

DIL got a new and better paying job.  It's been a challenge for her, but she's doing well.  She recently passed her 90 day review with good comments from her boss.

They have been making all their payments, debt has steadily decreased, credit score is way, way up, and two weeks ago they closed on their first house.  They actually bought the place for $20k less than their maximum financed amount!  The trailer we had bought to house them on our property is cleaned up and for sale on craigslist.

We were at their new house for grandson's 5th birthday party and DIL was heard mentioning their overall budget, the amount she was allowed* to spend on party decorations, and regretted that she could only afford 2 balloons for the party.

*Note:  "Allowed" may sound patronizing but, believe me, this woman very, very, very much needs someone to corral her spending impulses. 

So, we're cautiously optimistic that they've patched the leaks, pumped the ship mostly dry, and will live happily ever after.




SunnyDays

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6017 on: October 04, 2020, 10:19:34 AM »
Hmmm.  Well, I hate to pop those two balloons, but chances are that DIL will feel increasingly resentful over time that she's being "allowed" to only spend so much on anything when she has her own income.  Unless she puts some effort into controlling her impulses herself and not just relying on your son to do it for her.  So far, so good, but only time will tell long term.

FlytilFIRE

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6018 on: October 04, 2020, 01:13:48 PM »
Hmmm.  Well, I hate to pop those two balloons, but chances are that DIL will feel increasingly resentful over time that she's being "allowed" to only spend so much on anything when she has her own income.  Unless she puts some effort into controlling her impulses herself and not just relying on your son to do it for her.  So far, so good, but only time will tell long term.

Not necessarily. Being able to sleep at night, knowing your bills are paid can be highly addictive. Hooray for them! At this stage, frequent positive reinforcement is encouraged, reminding the couple of how far they've come, and how proud of them you are.

There's no mention of a monthly "fun money" amount, which can also be really helpful. If she knows she'll have a certain amount to blow any way she wants, it can help ensure the rest of the budget stays intact.

Thanks for the update. So glad that things are moving forward.

DadJokes

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6019 on: October 04, 2020, 04:20:29 PM »
Hmmm.  Well, I hate to pop those two balloons, but chances are that DIL will feel increasingly resentful over time that she's being "allowed" to only spend so much on anything when she has her own income.  Unless she puts some effort into controlling her impulses herself and not just relying on your son to do it for her.  So far, so good, but only time will tell long term.

Yep, that's how I read that as well.

If she feels like they are deprived, then it's not going to last.

Kris

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6020 on: October 04, 2020, 04:25:31 PM »
Hmmm.  Well, I hate to pop those two balloons, but chances are that DIL will feel increasingly resentful over time that she's being "allowed" to only spend so much on anything when she has her own income.  Unless she puts some effort into controlling her impulses herself and not just relying on your son to do it for her.  So far, so good, but only time will tell long term.

Yep, that's how I read that as well.

If she feels like they are deprived, then it's not going to last.

Truth. She was either totally teasing, or not so much.

If itís the latter, I think that feeling will only get worse.

elaine amj

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6021 on: October 04, 2020, 09:31:01 PM »
I remember your stories about your son and DIL and am so very glad to hear the latest update that the ship continues to sail on calmer seas.

Sent from my VCE-AL00 using Tapatalk


ysette9

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6022 on: October 05, 2020, 01:44:17 PM »
It is nice to hear a positive update. Thanks for sharing.

Ideally I think each half of a couple should be responsible adults and have access and knowledge about the household finances. That is how it works between my husband and me.

But realistically I understand that some people arenít capable of that. With my parents my mother controls the money and my father gets a okay money allowance. They do discuss major things and make decisions together, but it was long ago decided that if he ran the finances they would be in debt, the way he was when the two of them met. Similarly my FIL had the impulse control and understanding of a child, so he got an allowance and my MIL controls it all. I am happy to be married to a more responsible person but I canít fault people for finding workarounds if their spouse has strengths elsewhere.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6023 on: October 05, 2020, 01:46:55 PM »
It is nice to hear a positive update. Thanks for sharing.

Ideally I think each half of a couple should be responsible adults and have access and knowledge about the household finances. That is how it works between my husband and me.

But realistically I understand that some people arenít capable of that...
There's also the matter of time--if one spouse is sufficiently responsible, the other can simply let them handle it, with period joint reviews, of course.

Zoot

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6024 on: October 05, 2020, 03:13:00 PM »
Ideally I think each half of a couple should be responsible adults and have access and knowledge about the household finances. That is how it works between my husband and me.

But realistically I understand that some people arenít capable of that. With my parents my mother controls the money and my father gets a okay money allowance. They do discuss major things and make decisions together, but it was long ago decided that if he ran the finances they would be in debt, the way he was when the two of them met. Similarly my FIL had the impulse control and understanding of a child, so he got an allowance and my MIL controls it all.

This reminds me of a character from Jane Austen's Persuasion: Sir Walter Elliot, whose wife had, during her lifetime, managed the household efficiently and within-budget; upon her death, Sir Walter soon found himself in dire financial straits.  Rather than "retrench" (i.e., reduce expenses) in some thoughtful way, they think of MAYBE cutting off some charities, not re-doing the drawing room, or not giving the usual gift to the family middle daughter, Anne (the heroine of the novel): 

Quote from: Jane Austen
The Kellynch property was good, but not equal to Sir Walter's apprehension of the state required in its possessor. While Lady Elliot lived, there had been method, moderation, and economy, which had just kept him within his income; but with her had died all such right-mindedness, and from that period he had been constantly exceeding it. It had not been possible for him to spend less; he had done nothing but what Sir Walter Elliot was imperiously called on to do; but blameless as he was, he was not only growing dreadfully in debt, but was hearing of it so often, that it became vain to attempt concealing it longer, even partially, from his daughter. He had given her some hints of it the last spring in town; he had gone so far even as to say, "Can we retrench? Does it occur to you that there is any one article in which we can retrench?" and Elizabeth, to do her justice, had, in the first ardour of female alarm, set seriously to think what could be done, and had finally proposed these two branches of economy, to cut off some unnecessary charities, and to refrain from new furnishing the drawing-room; to which expedients she afterwards added the happy thought of their taking no present down to Anne, as had been the usual yearly custom. But these measures, however good in themselves, were insufficient for the real extent of the evil, the whole of which Sir Walter found himself obliged to confess to her soon afterwards. Elizabeth had nothing to propose of deeper efficacy. She felt herself ill-used and unfortunate, as did her father; and they were neither of them able to devise any means of lessening their expenses without compromising their dignity, or relinquishing their comforts in a way not to be borne.

There was only a small part of his estate that Sir Walter could dispose of; but had every acre been alienable, it would have made no difference. He had condescended to mortgage as far as he had the power, but he would never condescend to sell. No; he would never disgrace his name so far. The Kellynch estate should be transmitted whole and entire, as he had received it.

Their two confidential friends, Mr Shepherd, who lived in the neighbouring market town, and Lady Russell, were called to advise them; and both father and daughter seemed to expect that something should be struck out by one or the other to remove their embarrassments and reduce their expenditure, without involving the loss of any indulgence of taste or pride.

(edit: spelling, syntax)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 03:21:51 PM by Zoot »

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6025 on: October 05, 2020, 03:45:37 PM »
There's a wealth of knowledge about people and the problems they cause for themselves in the classics.   And Austen, like Dickens, really understood human nature.

SheWhoWalksAtLunch

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6026 on: October 06, 2020, 07:26:41 AM »
As a teen I read Austen for the romance, then as a young adult I read it for the wit.  Now I can see the history, economics and social commentary imbedded in every story.  Austen is well worth a read if you've never picked up one of her books.

Zoot

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6027 on: October 06, 2020, 09:00:51 AM »
As a teen I read Austen for the romance, then as a young adult I read it for the wit.  Now I can see the history, economics and social commentary imbedded in every story.  Austen is well worth a read if you've never picked up one of her books.

This x 1000.  :)  The plots of Austen's novels are woven through with financial matters, from Darcy's £10,000 a year to the Dashwoods getting ejected from Norland to the "handsome, clever, and rich" Emma Woodhouse.  There is so much insight about money in her work!

I actually credit Austen (and Amy Dacyczyn, to a lesser degree, and in a different way) for introducing me to the notion of financial independence.  I discovered her work in the mid 90s (when I was around 30--late to the Austen party!) through the BBC production with Jennifer Ehle and Colin Firth, and was intrigued by the new-to-me notion that the gentry of that time didn't engage in "trade" but instead lived off their generationally-accumulated fortunes and the proceeds from their estates.  "Wouldn't it be nice to have THAT kind of setup," I thought.  When I discovered MMM roughly 15 years later, it all clicked in to place.

SheWhoWalksAtLunch

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6028 on: October 06, 2020, 09:15:41 AM »
As a teen I read Austen for the romance, then as a young adult I read it for the wit.  Now I can see the history, economics and social commentary imbedded in every story.  Austen is well worth a read if you've never picked up one of her books.

This x 1000.  :)  The plots of Austen's novels are woven through with financial matters, from Darcy's £10,000 a year to the Dashwoods getting ejected from Norland to the "handsome, clever, and rich" Emma Woodhouse.  There is so much insight about money in her work!

I actually credit Austen (and Amy Dacyczyn, to a lesser degree, and in a different way) for introducing me to the notion of financial independence.  I discovered her work in the mid 90s (when I was around 30--late to the Austen party!) through the BBC production with Jennifer Ehle and Colin Firth, and was intrigued by the new-to-me notion that the gentry of that time didn't engage in "trade" but instead lived off their generationally-accumulated fortunes and the proceeds from their estates.  "Wouldn't it be nice to have THAT kind of setup," I thought.  When I discovered MMM roughly 15 years later, it all clicked in to place.

It gets better.  Austen describes several family's fortunes as being "in the 4 percents" meaning they were earning enough interest for a safe withdrawl rate.

Zoot

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6029 on: October 06, 2020, 09:22:49 AM »
It gets better.  Austen describes several family's fortunes as being "in the 4 percents" meaning they were earning enough interest for a safe withdrawl rate.

Oh my goodness--I've seen/heard that phrase over and over in her novels and in adaptations, and I have NEVER made that connection.  Who knew Austen pre-figured Bengen by nearly two centuries? 

Thanks for the brain explosion!  :) 

chaskavitch

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6030 on: October 06, 2020, 09:24:00 AM »
It gets better.  Austen describes several family's fortunes as being "in the 4 percents" meaning they were earning enough interest for a safe withdrawl rate.

Oh my goodness--I've seen/heard that phrase over and over in her novels and in adaptations, and I have NEVER made that connection.  Who knew Austen pre-figured Bengen by nearly two centuries? 

Thanks for the brain explosion!  :)

That's amazing!  I never knew that's what she meant either, but it makes so much sense. 

Kris

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6031 on: October 06, 2020, 11:15:25 AM »
I love Jane Austen. I read Pride and Prejudice to my husband last winter every night over dinner prep. And I got him so into the 1995 Pride and Prejudice that we watch it at least once a year.

Man, now I'm gonna have to do a reread of all her other books.

merula

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6032 on: October 06, 2020, 11:21:51 AM »
Not only does Austen have astute economic commentary, the economist Thomas Piketty references her works extensively (along with Balzac, the French novelist working a few decades later) in his books Capital in the Twenty-first Century and Capital and Inequality.

Austen's works make it clear that everyone in that era expected a 5% return on capital, so that Darcy's £10,000 p.a. income was exactly equivalent to £200,000 in capital. Piketty also draws on the way she links social class and income; there are tons of quotes like the Persuasion one above sprinkled throughout her books.

pachnik

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6033 on: October 06, 2020, 11:35:41 AM »
It gets better.  Austen describes several family's fortunes as being "in the 4 percents" meaning they were earning enough interest for a safe withdrawl rate.

Oh my goodness--I've seen/heard that phrase over and over in her novels and in adaptations, and I have NEVER made that connection.  Who knew Austen pre-figured Bengen by nearly two centuries? 

Thanks for the brain explosion!  :)

+1  I've also read her novels several times over and never made the connection!!!  LOL!!! 

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6034 on: October 06, 2020, 11:41:50 AM »
Georgette Heyer does too, though not as much.  And some of her characters from good but impoverished families (think Church of England Minister's children) go shopping in the inexpensive but good quality places and carry their shopping home in bags from the expensive places so no-one will know.  And some take their grandmother's stored clothing (from when there was huge amounts of fabric in a dress) and make up new dresses.  Shades of Scarlet and the curtains.

ixtap

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6035 on: October 06, 2020, 12:33:59 PM »
As a teen I read Austen for the romance, then as a young adult I read it for the wit.  Now I can see the history, economics and social commentary imbedded in every story.  Austen is well worth a read if you've never picked up one of her books.

This x 1000.  :)  The plots of Austen's novels are woven through with financial matters, from Darcy's £10,000 a year to the Dashwoods getting ejected from Norland to the "handsome, clever, and rich" Emma Woodhouse.  There is so much insight about money in her work!

I actually credit Austen (and Amy Dacyczyn, to a lesser degree, and in a different way) for introducing me to the notion of financial independence.  I discovered her work in the mid 90s (when I was around 30--late to the Austen party!) through the BBC production with Jennifer Ehle and Colin Firth, and was intrigued by the new-to-me notion that the gentry of that time didn't engage in "trade" but instead lived off their generationally-accumulated fortunes and the proceeds from their estates.  "Wouldn't it be nice to have THAT kind of setup," I thought.  When I discovered MMM roughly 15 years later, it all clicked in to place.

It gets better.  Austen describes several family's fortunes as being "in the 4 percents" meaning they were earning enough interest for a safe withdrawl rate.

The four percents were a specific corporate bondz rather than just an ideal.

There are many folks of independent means, not just generational wealth. Whether you made you fortune in the military or trade, achieving that independence is looked at differently than continuing to practice whatever made you rich in the first place.

DeniseNJ

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6036 on: October 07, 2020, 07:03:49 AM »
I found it facinating that the true mark of wealth was not having to work.  Even if you were very modestly endowed with very little to spare, a gentleman was one who didn't need to work.  As if once you had enough to live on it was rather obscene to work and continue to earn more. (MMM?) People of means did charity work and had literary clubs and magazines and ran small or huge estates, similar to nobility but without the titles.  They were the "rich," and then there were the poor, who worked hard with little result and depended on the charity of the "rich."

It wasn't until industrialization when it became possible to get rich by working (in industry) that the working class became the middle class.  They couldn't afford to "retire" but as long as they kept working, they had plenty of dough.  At first it was crass.  But then "industry" became industrious and the middle class was born, coming into the world gung ho, screeching, with a sense of rightousness and entitlement, and an established pattern of work and spend, work and spend, to show that even though you had to work, you had plenty of money as evidenced by all of your nice things. But with no sense of owing to the less fortunate.  After all, they work hard for their money so why should they support those who don't.

And here we are today!

ysette9

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6037 on: October 10, 2020, 04:06:15 PM »
I love Pride and Prejudice and Jane Eyre. As with others I agree that I find the parallels with FIRE fascinating, especially the philosophical parts of what you do with your life if you donít have to fill your days with work.

To my modern eyes it often feels like the rich in those books are constructing their days to constantly combat boredom and a sense of meaningless in life. Of course this is 1000x worse for the women who have such narrowly prescribed lives and can basically aspire to nothing more than marrying a rich dude, and yet are expected to somehow not behave as if their entire lifeís purpose is to land some unsuspecting gentleman.

That aside, the talk of income and fortune and who will inherit what and when is interesting for how forthright it all is. We seem to keep our own financial matters quite private where as in P&P the whole neighborhood knows what Mr Bingleyís net worth is before he even moves into town.

accountingteacher

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6038 on: October 11, 2020, 08:32:00 PM »
Is anyone else interested in creating a ĎJane Austenís Economicsí thread?

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6039 on: October 11, 2020, 08:41:39 PM »
Is anyone else interested in creating a ĎJane Austenís Economicsí thread?

Go for it!

I'll go put my Regency British Naval Uniform on in anticipation...

shelivesthedream

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6040 on: October 12, 2020, 01:24:28 AM »
Is anyone else interested in creating a ĎJane Austenís Economicsí thread?

YES. Never read any myself but would LOVE to lurk as I adore social history of a slightly later period. Please post the link here!

Zoot

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6041 on: October 12, 2020, 05:58:37 AM »
I'm SO in on the Jane Austen economics thread--so in, in fact, that I went ahead and created it! 

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/jane-austen-economics/

I'll go put my Regency British Naval Uniform on in anticipation...

Now thinking delightful thoughts of Captain Wentworth.  Thanks for the great start to my day!  ;-)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 06:01:15 AM by Zoot »

GatorNation

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6042 on: October 16, 2020, 05:12:08 AM »
My 25 year old cousin lives with her parents because she refuses to get a real job.  She's obsessed with music and hooping (dancing with a hula hoop) and is convinced her hobby will somehow make her a lot of money.  She loves to travel, eat out and party.  She posted on facebook recently that she earns less than $400/week (between hooping, working at a call center, and her pornography work). Her parents have bought her 2 new cars, give her a lot of money, and are constantly saving her from every problem she encounters.  However, she is of the belief that she's some sort of economy/policy genius and is always posting on facebook how the evil American capitalist system must be destroyed.  Here are her two most recent facebook posts:

-Amazing how a bank will charge you a whole ass $35 just for writing a check from the wrong account.  It literally cost them $0 and took me .5 seconds to log in and transfer the funds.  $35.. that's 2-3 meals.  Could feed a small family.  and they charge this to thousands of working class people a day just for making mistakes.  F**K capitalism I don't want to live in this late-stage imperialist hell anymore.  I just wanna gather nuts n berries man.

Later than day, she also wrote:

-My mom just now, angry at me: "that status you posted is stupid.  it's your own fault you can't manage your finances."  I feel sorry for people who want to see change in the world but don't see how breaking generations of capitalist greed could maybe somehow be a good start.  It's sad how brainwashed the average person is into thinking that this is the only logical way to manage money/run an economy.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6043 on: October 16, 2020, 05:36:15 AM »
My 25 year old cousin lives with her parents because she refuses to get a real job.  She's obsessed with music and hooping (dancing with a hula hoop) and is convinced her hobby will somehow make her a lot of money.  She loves to travel, eat out and party.  She posted on facebook recently that she earns less than $400/week (between hooping, working at a call center, and her pornography work). Her parents have bought her 2 new cars, give her a lot of money, and are constantly saving her from every problem she encounters.  However, she is of the belief that she's some sort of economy/policy genius and is always posting on facebook how the evil American capitalist system must be destroyed.  Here are her two most recent facebook posts:

-Amazing how a bank will charge you a whole ass $35 just for writing a check from the wrong account.  It literally cost them $0 and took me .5 seconds to log in and transfer the funds.  $35.. that's 2-3 meals.  Could feed a small family.  and they charge this to thousands of working class people a day just for making mistakes.  F**K capitalism I don't want to live in this late-stage imperialist hell anymore.  I just wanna gather nuts n berries man.

Later than day, she also wrote:

-My mom just now, angry at me: "that status you posted is stupid.  it's your own fault you can't manage your finances."  I feel sorry for people who want to see change in the world but don't see how breaking generations of capitalist greed could maybe somehow be a good start.  It's sad how brainwashed the average person is into thinking that this is the only logical way to manage money/run an economy.
"Honey, capitalism is why you have a phone, an internet connection, and a website to post your complaints on."

bbqbonelesswing

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6044 on: October 16, 2020, 07:24:26 AM »
My 25 year old cousin lives with her parents because she refuses to get a real job.  She's obsessed with music and hooping (dancing with a hula hoop) and is convinced her hobby will somehow make her a lot of money.  She loves to travel, eat out and party.  She posted on facebook recently that she earns less than $400/week (between hooping, working at a call center, and her pornography work). Her parents have bought her 2 new cars, give her a lot of money, and are constantly saving her from every problem she encounters.  However, she is of the belief that she's some sort of economy/policy genius and is always posting on facebook how the evil American capitalist system must be destroyed.  Here are her two most recent facebook posts:

-Amazing how a bank will charge you a whole ass $35 just for writing a check from the wrong account.  It literally cost them $0 and took me .5 seconds to log in and transfer the funds.  $35.. that's 2-3 meals.  Could feed a small family.  and they charge this to thousands of working class people a day just for making mistakes.  F**K capitalism I don't want to live in this late-stage imperialist hell anymore.  I just wanna gather nuts n berries man.

Later than day, she also wrote:

-My mom just now, angry at me: "that status you posted is stupid.  it's your own fault you can't manage your finances."  I feel sorry for people who want to see change in the world but don't see how breaking generations of capitalist greed could maybe somehow be a good start.  It's sad how brainwashed the average person is into thinking that this is the only logical way to manage money/run an economy.

Maybe she should open her own bank- then she could give away all the free services she wants.

dandarc

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6045 on: October 16, 2020, 09:22:24 AM »
The system can suck and people can be mismanaging their finances at the same time. We can and should work on both at the same time.

former player

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6046 on: October 16, 2020, 10:08:19 AM »
My 25 year old cousin lives with her parents because she refuses to get a real job.  She's obsessed with music and hooping (dancing with a hula hoop) and is convinced her hobby will somehow make her a lot of money.  She loves to travel, eat out and party.  She posted on facebook recently that she earns less than $400/week (between hooping, working at a call center, and her pornography work). Her parents have bought her 2 new cars, give her a lot of money, and are constantly saving her from every problem she encounters.  However, she is of the belief that she's some sort of economy/policy genius and is always posting on facebook how the evil American capitalist system must be destroyed.  Here are her two most recent facebook posts:

-Amazing how a bank will charge you a whole ass $35 just for writing a check from the wrong account.  It literally cost them $0 and took me .5 seconds to log in and transfer the funds.  $35.. that's 2-3 meals.  Could feed a small family.  and they charge this to thousands of working class people a day just for making mistakes.  F**K capitalism I don't want to live in this late-stage imperialist hell anymore.  I just wanna gather nuts n berries man.

Later than day, she also wrote:

-My mom just now, angry at me: "that status you posted is stupid.  it's your own fault you can't manage your finances."  I feel sorry for people who want to see change in the world but don't see how breaking generations of capitalist greed could maybe somehow be a good start.  It's sad how brainwashed the average person is into thinking that this is the only logical way to manage money/run an economy.

Maybe she should open her own bank- then she could give away all the free services she wants.
Maybe if she can't manage more than one bank account at a time she should only have one bank account.

Sibley

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6047 on: October 16, 2020, 03:43:28 PM »
My 25 year old cousin lives with her parents because she refuses to get a real job.  She's obsessed with music and hooping (dancing with a hula hoop) and is convinced her hobby will somehow make her a lot of money.  She loves to travel, eat out and party.  She posted on facebook recently that she earns less than $400/week (between hooping, working at a call center, and her pornography work). Her parents have bought her 2 new cars, give her a lot of money, and are constantly saving her from every problem she encounters.  However, she is of the belief that she's some sort of economy/policy genius and is always posting on facebook how the evil American capitalist system must be destroyed.  Here are her two most recent facebook posts:

-Amazing how a bank will charge you a whole ass $35 just for writing a check from the wrong account.  It literally cost them $0 and took me .5 seconds to log in and transfer the funds.  $35.. that's 2-3 meals.  Could feed a small family.  and they charge this to thousands of working class people a day just for making mistakes.  F**K capitalism I don't want to live in this late-stage imperialist hell anymore.  I just wanna gather nuts n berries man.

Later than day, she also wrote:

-My mom just now, angry at me: "that status you posted is stupid.  it's your own fault you can't manage your finances."  I feel sorry for people who want to see change in the world but don't see how breaking generations of capitalist greed could maybe somehow be a good start.  It's sad how brainwashed the average person is into thinking that this is the only logical way to manage money/run an economy.

Maybe she should open her own bank- then she could give away all the free services she wants.
Maybe if she can't manage more than one bank account at a time she should only have one bank account.

Maybe the bank of mom and dad should close. IE, no more money, and oh btw she now owes rent, every month, on the 1st, and if she can't/won't she can move out.

Girl needs to grow up (and yes, I deliberately called her a girl, because an adult woman has her shit together better than that).

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6048 on: October 16, 2020, 05:51:49 PM »
It's interesting how those who are least responsible for themselves can be most critical of the 'evils' of the system that supports their irresponsible behavior...

Roadrunner53

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6049 on: October 17, 2020, 04:45:22 AM »
My next door neighbor is divorced and his two mid 20 year old sons live with him. So the Dad says to the son's that he would like to have them start pitching in to help pay for utilities and some other stuff but not actually charging them rent. They laughed at the dad. The older one had a hissy fit and told his father he could live elsewhere with a friend a pay nothing. So he huffed off. About 5 days later he comes home to do his dirty laundry! Are you kidding me? Eventually, his arrangement with the friend must have fizzled and he dragged his sorry butt home. I still don't think either son pays anything to live there. It is ridiculous! They both work. Of course the older one is very lazy and has no ambition. Seems to get seasonal jobs and who knows if he even has medical. He may get paid under the table which means he may not be paying into Social Security. The younger one works under the table and is self employed. So he is also not paying into the 'system'. They think they are getting away with not paying taxes. One day, when they need help or are old and need SS, good luck to them. The older one may be still on Daddy's medical insurance but not much longer. The younger one will be on it for a couple more years. Then no insurance for either of them thru daddy. Because they are young they think they are invincible and will never get sick or hurt they won't bother to buy insurance.
Somehow I envision these two sons still living in the basement as 40 year old men. UGH! Kind of a creepy thought! I blame the Dad for creating this situation. He seems afraid to upset his little boys.