Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 1961079 times)

Zikoris

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5500 on: August 23, 2019, 12:23:23 PM »
They also tend to have a different definition of poverty, and they would rather be in "poverty" in a crowded multi-family household than live a "cold sterile and lonely" western lifestyle. 

Your census link looks at a $25,000 poverty line.  A lot of people aim to FIRE and live on less than that, on purpose.

If people are happy with their living conditions then more power to them. However FIREing on $25k / year with a paid-off house, paid-off cars, all the leisure time in the world to solve problems and fix things, and having a million bucks worth of emergency money to fall back on is a VERY different situation than making $25k while working full time, renting, not having a car, and having credit card debt.

FIRE income is just not comparable to poverty income. They're completely different things.

Eh, that's debatable - we spend about 27-28K living in a major city, both working full time, renting, with no car, and that includes close to 10K of international travel to Europe and Asia every year. We don't have credit card debt, though I think our travel spending more than makes up for that. We intend to FIRE with the same spending level, as for us that translates into an extremely comfortable lifestyle.
You must have very cheap rent, I've always heard that Vancouver housing market is horrendous, and presumed rent was at least as expensive as Toronto, if not more.   If $27-28K includes 10K of travel, you're saying you live on $17-18K a year INCLUDING rent, if that's true, you're crushing it in way I didn't think possible.    I would have assumed your rent would be $10-18K a year (833-15/mth)

There are cheap housing options literally everywhere. Being like "Welp, guess this is just what X costs, so I'll pay that" is a guaranteed method to get ripped off on everything. Different cities have different options, but I guarantee you in any city there are frugal people killing it.

OtherJen

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5501 on: August 23, 2019, 12:31:31 PM »
They also tend to have a different definition of poverty, and they would rather be in "poverty" in a crowded multi-family household than live a "cold sterile and lonely" western lifestyle. 

Your census link looks at a $25,000 poverty line.  A lot of people aim to FIRE and live on less than that, on purpose.

If people are happy with their living conditions then more power to them. However FIREing on $25k / year with a paid-off house, paid-off cars, all the leisure time in the world to solve problems and fix things, and having a million bucks worth of emergency money to fall back on is a VERY different situation than making $25k while working full time, renting, not having a car, and having credit card debt.

FIRE income is just not comparable to poverty income. They're completely different things.

Eh, that's debatable - we spend about 27-28K living in a major city, both working full time, renting, with no car, and that includes close to 10K of international travel to Europe and Asia every year. We don't have credit card debt, though I think our travel spending more than makes up for that. We intend to FIRE with the same spending level, as for us that translates into an extremely comfortable lifestyle.

Didn't you say elsewhere that your annual household income is much higher than that (i.e., not poverty income)? You may be spending near the poverty level but you have significant savings. Your situation is awesome and inspiring, but also different from that of someone who makes $25K per year and has no choice but to live on that, regardless of whatever shit hits the fan. Psychologically, having a cushion for emergencies makes a big difference.

Zikoris

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5502 on: August 23, 2019, 12:44:47 PM »
They also tend to have a different definition of poverty, and they would rather be in "poverty" in a crowded multi-family household than live a "cold sterile and lonely" western lifestyle. 

Your census link looks at a $25,000 poverty line.  A lot of people aim to FIRE and live on less than that, on purpose.

If people are happy with their living conditions then more power to them. However FIREing on $25k / year with a paid-off house, paid-off cars, all the leisure time in the world to solve problems and fix things, and having a million bucks worth of emergency money to fall back on is a VERY different situation than making $25k while working full time, renting, not having a car, and having credit card debt.

FIRE income is just not comparable to poverty income. They're completely different things.

Eh, that's debatable - we spend about 27-28K living in a major city, both working full time, renting, with no car, and that includes close to 10K of international travel to Europe and Asia every year. We don't have credit card debt, though I think our travel spending more than makes up for that. We intend to FIRE with the same spending level, as for us that translates into an extremely comfortable lifestyle.

Didn't you say elsewhere that your annual household income is much higher than that (i.e., not poverty income)? You may be spending near the poverty level but you have significant savings. Your situation is awesome and inspiring, but also different from that of someone who makes $25K per year and has no choice but to live on that, regardless of whatever shit hits the fan. Psychologically, having a cushion for emergencies makes a big difference.

Yes, we make much more than that. But I'm saying that even at that level, a person can be pretty comfortable if they're frugal. Like, lets say we only made 25K - take out only our international vacations but leave all our other spending the same, and you've already got a surplus of 7K/year to cover emergencies + some savings, and that's not even touching anything else like our video game spending, movies, concerts, hobbies, etc. And I actually have lived on those types of incomes - my first year living independently in Vancouver I made about 14K income, and while it wasn't the lap of luxury, it was fine - I had housing, food, basics, and a bit leftover for hobbies and some savings.

Goldielocks

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5503 on: August 23, 2019, 04:00:52 PM »
Yeah, my daughter's BF makes about $1400 a month, pays for a room and his food / utilities, and thinks it is great.  He works part time at McDonalds, lives in the greater vancouver area.

He has a cheap phone, did not even add cell service to it, just wifi for the longest time, and has a one zone transit pass.   He spends money on a couple of reasonable date nights a month, magic cards, and steam video games...  DD has to instruct him to replace clothes by going to the thrift store... big purchases are things like replacement headphones.

He seems very happy.

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5504 on: August 24, 2019, 12:21:12 PM »
Zig, I could be wrong but donít you have cheaper rent than many?

Zikoris

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5505 on: August 24, 2019, 01:54:13 PM »
Zig, I could be wrong but donít you have cheaper rent than many?

Yes, but that's not an accident. I have cheaper everything than almost anyone. You don't save 65% on average income by paying normal prices for stuff.

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5506 on: August 24, 2019, 02:07:57 PM »
Obviously, getting the journalism degree on student loans would have been better than an engineering one under the GI Bill, but hey, you live and learn, ama-right

I'm a fan of the non-traditional path. My kids are in a high school where they learn a trade half the day. I'm talking to the oldest about doing a year of community service/working before going to college. She's open to it.

But it's tough because some of her friends give off this vibe like they're better [off] than she is because they're going away to university. Where we live, it's like everyone has to go to college at 18. It's really not the right path for everyone, at least not at 18.

Yep - our eldest did a similar path as your daughter with HS vocational classes and friends here gave eldest the same vibe as your daughter got.

Fortunately eldest was wise enough to recognize that college money at that point in time would be waste as the eldest isn't ready for college. Is signed up for a state vocational school now. The school has a waiting list. We can afford to send eldest to a nearby state university later if that becomes a goal for eldest.

Live and learn: absolutely. Very happy with life's outcome but I definitely made some inefficient choices along the way aka mistakes. Should have far more money saved up and closer to retirement. We will still retire at ~60 with a comfortable situation.

By the River

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5507 on: August 26, 2019, 08:41:52 AM »
Obviously, getting the journalism degree on student loans would have been better than an engineering one under the GI Bill, but hey, you live and learn, ama-right

I'm a fan of the non-traditional path. My kids are in a high school where they learn a trade half the day. I'm talking to the oldest about doing a year of community service/working before going to college. She's open to it.

But it's tough because some of her friends give off this vibe like they're better [off] than she is because they're going away to university. Where we live, it's like everyone has to go to college at 18. It's really not the right path for everyone, at least not at 18.

Yep - our eldest did a similar path as your daughter with HS vocational classes and friends here gave eldest the same vibe as your daughter got.

Fortunately eldest was wise enough to recognize that college money at that point in time would be waste as the eldest isn't ready for college. Is signed up for a state vocational school now. The school has a waiting list. We can afford to send eldest to a nearby state university later if that becomes a goal for eldest.

Live and learn: absolutely. Very happy with life's outcome but I definitely made some inefficient choices along the way aka mistakes. Should have far more money saved up and closer to retirement. We will still retire at ~60 with a comfortable situation.

My son graduated from a "prestigious" high school where everyone was expected to attend college.  The graduation program listed the kids' college choices.  One was listed as "gap year"  I asked my son about that and he replied "X isn't going to college, his grandparents own a large B&B.  He is going to work there for a couple of years and then the grandparents will retire and he will take over"   The school just couldn't write "no college"   


Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5508 on: August 26, 2019, 03:49:41 PM »
Maybe the school thought they were doing the graduate a favor. Not going to college - the horror of it!!!

LadyMuMu

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5509 on: August 27, 2019, 06:51:18 AM »
What's wrong with Employment with Atheneum B&B or whatever the company name is? I think having a job lined up in May (even in a family business) is quite an accomplishment for a graduating senior. They put Nave, Marines, etc. I'm unclear how this is so very different.

By the River

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5510 on: August 27, 2019, 06:59:15 AM »
What's wrong with Employment with Atheneum B&B or whatever the company name is? I think having a job lined up in May (even in a family business) is quite an accomplishment for a graduating senior. They put Nave, Marines, etc. I'm unclear how this is so very different.

Yes, the school did put the branch of the armed services for the kids going that route.  The one going to work filled his paperwork out with something to the effect of no college, working at xxx.   However, this school likes to advertise 100% of graduates attend college or armed services. 

Raenia

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5511 on: August 27, 2019, 07:09:19 AM »
What's wrong with Employment with Atheneum B&B or whatever the company name is? I think having a job lined up in May (even in a family business) is quite an accomplishment for a graduating senior. They put Nave, Marines, etc. I'm unclear how this is so very different.

Yes, the school did put the branch of the armed services for the kids going that route.  The one going to work filled his paperwork out with something to the effect of no college, working at xxx.   However, this school likes to advertise 100% of graduates attend college or armed services.

So, purposefully lying to keep their stats up.  Lovely.

Dabnasty

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5512 on: August 27, 2019, 07:19:56 AM »
What's wrong with Employment with Atheneum B&B or whatever the company name is? I think having a job lined up in May (even in a family business) is quite an accomplishment for a graduating senior. They put Nave, Marines, etc. I'm unclear how this is so very different.

Yes, the school did put the branch of the armed services for the kids going that route.  The one going to work filled his paperwork out with something to the effect of no college, working at xxx.   However, this school likes to advertise 100% of graduates attend college or armed services.

So, purposefully lying to keep their stats up.  Lovely.

Stats that encourage tunnel vision toward a life that's not for everyone. Even better.

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5513 on: August 27, 2019, 07:25:34 AM »
What's wrong with Employment with Atheneum B&B or whatever the company name is? I think having a job lined up in May (even in a family business) is quite an accomplishment for a graduating senior. They put Nave, Marines, etc. I'm unclear how this is so very different.

Yes, the school did put the branch of the armed services for the kids going that route.  The one going to work filled his paperwork out with something to the effect of no college, working at xxx.   However, this school likes to advertise 100% of graduates attend college or armed services.

So, purposefully lying to keep their stats up.  Lovely.

Explaining outliers can be a pia and take up to time/audience bandwidth better spent on other things. 

"100% of our graduates go to college"
vs
"95% of our graduates go to college; those 5% tend to go into family business, the peace corp, had bad problems with family and need to find there own path, then sometimes young adults just dont want to go into higher ed..."

100% and 95% are in this context very nearly the same but the 95% needs explanation...

Not that lying is good or we should be perpetuating the system where all young adults NEED to go to college...

LadyMuMu

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5514 on: August 27, 2019, 09:10:55 AM »
Next year, 100% of our graduates are going to college, public or military service, or directly into the workforce. First rule of PR is to focus attention on what you want them to see, not report what they want to hear.

Nederstash

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5515 on: August 29, 2019, 10:41:45 AM »
I know I've posted about my brother before. I love him, I do, but I want to slap him sometimes... PSA: if you have borrowed big sums of money from your retired aging parents, PAY IT BACK. Don't spend it on flashy cars and expensive holidays while my parents keep having to be frugal after a lifetime of hard work. Ugh.
 
I know it's none of my business, it's squarely between them, but it does piss me off.

bluebelle

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5516 on: August 29, 2019, 10:57:26 AM »
I know I've posted about my brother before. I love him, I do, but I want to slap him sometimes... PSA: if you have borrowed big sums of money from your retired aging parents, PAY IT BACK. Don't spend it on flashy cars and expensive holidays while my parents keep having to be frugal after a lifetime of hard work. Ugh.
 
I know it's none of my business, it's squarely between them, but it does piss me off.
It's sad how many grown-ass "children" think it's okay to spend their parents money.   Even if you're going to eventually inherit it, it's not yours yet.

mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5517 on: August 29, 2019, 01:55:34 PM »
What's wrong with Employment with Atheneum B&B or whatever the company name is? I think having a job lined up in May (even in a family business) is quite an accomplishment for a graduating senior. They put Nave, Marines, etc. I'm unclear how this is so very different.

Yes, the school did put the branch of the armed services for the kids going that route.  The one going to work filled his paperwork out with something to the effect of no college, working at xxx.   However, this school likes to advertise 100% of graduates attend college or armed services.
Ah, memories.  When I graduated from college, our department sent out a braggy letter about the % of students going to graduate school, the average starting salary of those getting jobs, and "other", like military service. (aka me, and one other guy).  Yeah, I'm an "other".  I guess a starting salary of $19k wasn't anything to brag about, ha!  They didn't want me to bring their numbers down (avg salary at that point was $40k, early 1990s).

saguaro

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5518 on: August 29, 2019, 02:35:49 PM »
I know I've posted about my brother before. I love him, I do, but I want to slap him sometimes... PSA: if you have borrowed big sums of money from your retired aging parents, PAY IT BACK. Don't spend it on flashy cars and expensive holidays while my parents keep having to be frugal after a lifetime of hard work. Ugh.
 
I know it's none of my business, it's squarely between them, but it does piss me off.
It's sad how many grown-ass "children" think it's okay to spend their parents money.   Even if you're going to eventually inherit it, it's not yours yet.

My SIL and niece, her daughter, have constantly gotten money off MIL and FIL for years.   These are not loans, it's full-on EOC.   It's been especially bad since MIL and FIL have gotten sizeable inheritances from both sets of parents and allowed themselves to become the family ATM, SIL has worked them like a pro.   Now if there were some issues like illness, disability, unemployment or some other misfortune going on, I would understand it as supporting through hard times but it is not and never has been the case.  They just want things and have no quibbles about taking from two retired people who are becoming increasingly frail.  At least MIL and FIL are finally saying no out of concern for having enough to fund any assisted living or care.   They still may be OK however DH and I have no idea what their financial picture is.   We have stayed out of that business but MIL has let slip enough about it over the years that it does piss DH off. 

Tass

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5519 on: August 29, 2019, 02:58:50 PM »
After much futile searching, I must ask: what does EOC stand for?

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5520 on: August 29, 2019, 03:03:11 PM »
After much futile searching, I must ask: what does EOC stand for?
Economic Outpatient Care.   It's a term from the book "The Millionaire Next Door."     It means someone (but not them) is funding part of their lifestyle.

onehair

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5521 on: September 16, 2019, 09:51:58 AM »
Yay the thread is still here though I am not too cheery just yet: As I put in a previous message on the general thread I am now working 2 jobs due to my SO and his irresponsible habits.  So the 2nd job is at McDonalds I am planning to leave it once I get my savings back to where they were before this latest debacle.  Anyway a few weeks ago after I catch up the rent and bills (and before you ask I don't give him a dime) he comes to me with his latest scheme: He wants me to cosign with him on a $7000 loan he thinks he can get and he will pay it once he gets his Social Security.  Bear in mind he ran through his TSP and still has the carnote plus back taxes to resolve.  I asked who would pay it until your SS kicks in?  I got a blank stare so then I refused on the grounds that I am repaying a loan as it is and also carrying the household.  He still gets a pension but it is being garnished by the Feds for back state taxes.  I figured out the person in need of Economic Life Support is...me. 

Sibley

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5522 on: September 16, 2019, 10:52:10 AM »
Yay the thread is still here though I am not too cheery just yet: As I put in a previous message on the general thread I am now working 2 jobs due to my SO and his irresponsible habits.  So the 2nd job is at McDonalds I am planning to leave it once I get my savings back to where they were before this latest debacle.  Anyway a few weeks ago after I catch up the rent and bills (and before you ask I don't give him a dime) he comes to me with his latest scheme: He wants me to cosign with him on a $7000 loan he thinks he can get and he will pay it once he gets his Social Security.  Bear in mind he ran through his TSP and still has the carnote plus back taxes to resolve.  I asked who would pay it until your SS kicks in?  I got a blank stare so then I refused on the grounds that I am repaying a loan as it is and also carrying the household.  He still gets a pension but it is being garnished by the Feds for back state taxes.  I figured out the person in need of Economic Life Support is...me.

I'm so sorry that your spouse is such an idiot with money. If you decide to kick him to the curb, you've got this internet stranger rooting for you. And with any luck, you can dump him with all the debt he's created and walk away.

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5523 on: September 16, 2019, 12:39:24 PM »
Wow you certainly don't deserve to have that kind of crap happen and it doesn't sound like you guys are young since he has a pension. The fact that you need a second job and it's at McDonald's would be great motivation for booting him out.