Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 2247459 times)

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5100 on: December 16, 2018, 09:47:32 AM »
I wouldnít plan to ever support him.  When he gets so he canít afford his bills he can sell his condo and move into a low income senior housing apartment. 

ysette9

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5101 on: December 16, 2018, 10:30:48 AM »
Wow, what a story. I am so sorry you dealt with this growing up.

I don’t have to walk in your shoes, but if i did I would advise you to draw very firm, clear boundaries in your mind and with him about what you will and will not do for your father in the future. I would be inclined to offer no financial support whatsoever unless it is in the form of pre-purchased groceries or something that he can’t get his hands on. He has a long, solid track record of financial disaster, so anything you give him would only feed his disease.

If you are getting married then you are forming your own family which now takes precedent over your parents. I would be very upset as a spouse if I married someone who gave our joint household money to a walking disaster like that unless we had had deep discussions in advance of what we were both willing to do.

Finally, what if every time he complains about having money you offer to sell off some piece of junk for him to raise funds? The Tahoe, the boat, the gym set, the 100 guitars, the fishing poles, etc.? I’m sure he won’t take you up on it but if you repeat if ad naseum then  maybe he will get the message that financial outpatient care will not be coming from you and that perhaps he needs to look at his own actions as they relate to the problem he finds himself in.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5102 on: December 16, 2018, 12:15:36 PM »
Wow, what a story. I am so sorry you dealt with this growing up.

I donít have to walk in your shoes, but if i did I would advise you to draw very firm, clear boundaries in your mind and with him about what you will and will not do for your father in the future. I would be inclined to offer no financial support whatsoever unless it is in the form of pre-purchased groceries or something that he canít get his hands on. He has a long, solid track record of financial disaster, so anything you give him would only feed his disease.

If you are getting married then you are forming your own family which now takes precedent over your parents. I would be very upset as a spouse if I married someone who gave our joint household money to a walking disaster like that unless we had had deep discussions in advance of what we were both willing to do.

Finally, what if every time he complains about having money you offer to sell off some piece of junk for him to raise funds? The Tahoe, the boat, the gym set, the 100 guitars, the fishing poles, etc.? Iím sure he wonít take you up on it but if you repeat if ad naseum then  maybe he will get the message that financial outpatient care will not be coming from you and that perhaps he needs to look at his own actions as they relate to the problem he finds himself in.

Got it in one!

Hula Hoop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5103 on: December 16, 2018, 02:36:15 PM »
Wow debtfreejess - I'm so sorry that  you had to deal with that growing up.  Ysette gives great advice.  Maybe one thing you could consider paying for, if he agrees, is counselling.  It may be too late but it sounds like he has an addiction.

Dave1442397

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5104 on: December 17, 2018, 11:06:26 AM »
Wow, what a story. I am so sorry you dealt with this growing up.

I donít have to walk in your shoes, but if i did I would advise you to draw very firm, clear boundaries in your mind and with him about what you will and will not do for your father in the future. I would be inclined to offer no financial support whatsoever unless it is in the form of pre-purchased groceries or something that he canít get his hands on. He has a long, solid track record of financial disaster, so anything you give him would only feed his disease.

If you are getting married then you are forming your own family which now takes precedent over your parents. I would be very upset as a spouse if I married someone who gave our joint household money to a walking disaster like that unless we had had deep discussions in advance of what we were both willing to do.

Finally, what if every time he complains about having money you offer to sell off some piece of junk for him to raise funds? The Tahoe, the boat, the gym set, the 100 guitars, the fishing poles, etc.? Iím sure he wonít take you up on it but if you repeat if ad naseum then  maybe he will get the message that financial outpatient care will not be coming from you and that perhaps he needs to look at his own actions as they relate to the problem he finds himself in.

+1. You want to stay as far away from that mess as possible, at least from a financial perspective.

debtfreejess

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5105 on: December 17, 2018, 11:41:10 AM »
@Cassie - I wish. Unfortunately, he's re-financed the condo almost a half dozen times in the last 30 years and pulled out equity every time to live off of. So even if he sells it (which will be a pretty low price in its current condition), there won't be much of a cash cushion to be gained.

@ysette9 - Thanks for the kind words. I agree entirely. My partner and I talk about my dad a lot - fortunately, they both get along, but I've made it clear that I'm not going to sink our family to keep my dad afloat. I've already had conversations with him about his junk and that if he ever needed to move in with me, his hoard is not coming with him. My dad's grace in all this is that he really has never asked me for any money or support - he's only ever gotten birthday and Christmas presents from me, as well as a little help in the form of labor here and there.

@Hula Hoop - Thanks for the thoughts. My dad has actually been in therapy for over 15 years for depression, etc. My suspicion is that the therapist doesn't know how bad his hoarding is, since all that information is coming from my dad and he waffles back and forth in seeing it as a problem. 

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5106 on: December 17, 2018, 12:02:37 PM »
It might be a good idea to get him on a waiting list for senior housing if he will agree. The wait can be a couple of years or more. I am sorry you are in this situation. When things blow up I would help him access services.

FireHiker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5107 on: December 17, 2018, 12:15:14 PM »
@debtfreejess  Welcome to the MMM Board! I'm sorry to read about your situation with your dad. My mom is similar, and you'll find there are several of us around here with parents who will never really be financially stable who make baffling decisions. My mom has definitely had some bad luck over the years, but the way you put it about making things 10x worse with bad choices on top of it describes her exactly. Life may give you a cactus but that doesn't mean you have to choose to sit on it...and it's hard when you see your own parent make that choice over and over.

faithless

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5108 on: December 17, 2018, 12:25:16 PM »
Life may give you a cactus but that doesn't mean you have to choose to sit on it...and it's hard when you see your own parent make that choice over and over.

Very serious subject, but this quote did make me smile

FireHiker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5109 on: December 17, 2018, 03:19:51 PM »
Life may give you a cactus but that doesn't mean you have to choose to sit on it...and it's hard when you see your own parent make that choice over and over.

Very serious subject, but this quote did make me smile

Ha ha, thanks. I didn't make it up myself, but when I heard it I couldn't help but think how accurately it reflected my mother!

Freedomin5

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5110 on: December 19, 2018, 02:18:16 AM »
Argh...just need to vent...

The Background:
We pay for tutoring for a young family member who is at risk of failing high school because he stays up all night gaming, canít wake up for school the next morning, lives in a volatile household, and his mom says ďgrowing boys need their sleepĒ and doesnít make him go to school. This kid recently (last year) got a high end gaming computer. He also has an older laptop, a tablet, and a smart phone. Mom is on government assistance and they live with grandma practically rent-free. Kid is currently doing online courses after failing out of grade nine because he is a delicate snowflake who canít handle the rough highschool environment. We spend about $100/week on intensive tutoring for the kid to help him keep on top of his assignments because thereís no way this kid can manage a self-study program.

Today, we received a message from the kid asking us to buy him a MacBook ďso that he can study better and pass his coursesĒ. Basically, the message said that he is currently behind because:

1) itís the computerís fault because itís too slow to go online and write word documents (computer from 2016/2017)
2) itís the houseís fault because he can study better at the library (already suggested to him in August when he had multiple excuses why it wouldnít work)
3) itís the deskís fault because the ďdesk isnít good for writing onĒ (what the heck does that even mean?!?! And why would you need to write on a desk if youíre doing ONLINE courses?)

We are going to say no and point out that we spent his MacBook money on his tutoring.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 02:20:17 AM by Freedomin5 »

Dave1442397

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5111 on: December 19, 2018, 05:25:52 AM »
Today, we received a message from the kid asking us to buy him a MacBook ďso that he can study better and pass his coursesĒ. Basically, the message said that he is currently behind because:

1) itís the computerís fault because itís too slow to go online and write word documents (computer from 2016/2017)
2) itís the houseís fault because he can study better at the library (already suggested to him in August when he had multiple excuses why it wouldnít work)
3) itís the deskís fault because the ďdesk isnít good for writing onĒ (what the heck does that even mean?!?! And why would you need to write on a desk if youíre doing ONLINE courses?)

We are going to say no and point out that we spent his MacBook money on his tutoring.

Hate to say it, but he doesn't sound like he's taking any of this seriously right now. He's using your tuition support as an excuse to play games and skip school, and now he's using the computer/house/desk as excuses for failing even with tuition support. I don't see this changing until the economic support stops and he finds out that in the real world, no one is handing you money for nothing.

Freedomin5

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5112 on: December 19, 2018, 05:40:22 AM »
Today, we received a message from the kid asking us to buy him a MacBook ďso that he can study better and pass his coursesĒ. Basically, the message said that he is currently behind because:

1) itís the computerís fault because itís too slow to go online and write word documents (computer from 2016/2017)
2) itís the houseís fault because he can study better at the library (already suggested to him in August when he had multiple excuses why it wouldnít work)
3) itís the deskís fault because the ďdesk isnít good for writing onĒ (what the heck does that even mean?!?! And why would you need to write on a desk if youíre doing ONLINE courses?)

We are going to say no and point out that we spent his MacBook money on his tutoring.

Hate to say it, but he doesn't sound like he's taking any of this seriously right now. He's using your tuition support as an excuse to play games and skip school, and now he's using the computer/house/desk as excuses for failing even with tuition support. I don't see this changing until the economic support stops and he finds out that in the real world, no one is handing you money for nothing.

Yup, as part of our response to him, we are going to advise him to get a part-time job and save up for the luxuries he wants. If he fails grade nine even with tutoring then thatís it. Heís used up his one chance and the tutoring stops.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5113 on: December 19, 2018, 06:03:05 AM »
It sounds like the only thing that will help him is getting him out of a household that lets him stay up all night and then sleep in the next day and miss school.  Which is not a situation you can solve, unfortunately.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5114 on: December 19, 2018, 07:11:39 AM »
It sounds like the only thing that will help him is getting him out of a household that lets him stay up all night and then sleep in the next day and miss school.  Which is not a situation you can solve, unfortunately.

Contact his local department of child services and report that he's missing school because of what his mom does.    Maybe the law will solve the problem, one way or the other.  Doesn't sound like the mom will.


Slow&Steady

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5115 on: December 19, 2018, 07:31:09 AM »
It sounds like the only thing that will help him is getting him out of a household that lets him stay up all night and then sleep in the next day and miss school.  Which is not a situation you can solve, unfortunately.

Contact his local department of child services and report that he's missing school because of what his mom does.    Maybe the law will solve the problem, one way or the other.  Doesn't sound like the mom will.

As a foster parent (to a kid that some how dropped out after failing freshman year, but will finally graduate at the age of 20), removing that kid from his family might eventually help him get a high school diploma/GED but it 100% will create an entirely different and potentially longer list of issues.  The "system" is completely screwed up and although that kid not graduating from high school will negatively impact the rest of his life it is not a reason to remove him from his parents and create the trauma that that involves.  There is scientific research out that proves that removing a kid from his parents/home is very traumatic event and will cause lasting damage to the developing brain, unless that kid is in real danger while living in that house it is absolutely better for him to stay in the home. 

If @Freedomin5 wants to help this young teen, finding a way to do that without money (and without trying to have the kid removed from his mom/grandma) would probably be best.  I get the impression that FN5 does not live near the kid, if they do the best help would be to provide support in physically being present for the kid. Go to the house after work and sit down to work on homework with him, call him daily and ask how schoolwork is going, pick him up on weekends and go visit colleges, go shoot a basketball with him for a hour or two, teach him how to drive (if he is old enough), go with him to pick up job applications, find out if there is an HR person at a local factory or other employer that you 2 can go interview together, etc.

AMandM

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5116 on: December 19, 2018, 08:58:58 AM »
My gifts to DD are totally based on what she wants/needs, and always discussed with her first - so I have given snow tires, coffee tables, etc. - or to be more precise, we discussed budgets and my limits, she bought the items and I forked over the money.  But she thinks of those gifts fondly, the snow tires included - what says caring more than being sure your beloved child is not at risk winter driving?

I have a friend whose boyfriend bought her pretty earrings for Christmas the first year they were dating. The second year, when they were much more serious, he said something about the Christmas present he had picked out for her that made her think it might be an engagement ring. She was all happy and excited and full of anticipation.  Come Christmas, he gives a box much bigger than a ring would need. Somewhat puzzled, she unwraps it and finds... a set of jumper cables.

In the moment, she was pretty taken aback, but she recognized that it meant he cared about her. He knew she was driving an old car on country roads every day, and he didn't want her to get stuck out in the boonies. They did get engaged later, and they've been married for over 30 years.

When she was telling me this story, her husband interrupted to say that you can give earrings to any girl, but the jumper cables were chosen for her particular situation. Also, as a percentage of his disposable cash, the cables were much bigger than the earrings, because he chose heavy-duty, reliable ones.  My friend agreed, and said they still have those cables today.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5117 on: December 19, 2018, 09:07:40 AM »
My gifts to DD are totally based on what she wants/needs, and always discussed with her first - so I have given snow tires, coffee tables, etc. - or to be more precise, we discussed budgets and my limits, she bought the items and I forked over the money.  But she thinks of those gifts fondly, the snow tires included - what says caring more than being sure your beloved child is not at risk winter driving?

When she was telling me this story, her husband interrupted to say that you can give earrings to any girl, but the jumper cables were chosen for her particular situation. Also, as a percentage of his disposable cash, the cables were much bigger than the earrings, because he chose heavy-duty, reliable ones.  My friend agreed, and said they still have those cables today.

He gets major brownie points for that gift - he thought of her situation, he wanted her to be safe driving, he got the expensive heavy-duty ones instead of the cheapies.  He showed he cared.

AMandM

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5118 on: December 19, 2018, 09:16:34 AM »
Finally, what if every time he complains about having money you offer to sell off some piece of junk for him to raise funds? The Tahoe, the boat, the gym set, the 100 guitars, the fishing poles, etc.? Iím sure he wonít take you up on it but if you repeat if ad naseum then  maybe he will get the message that financial outpatient care will not be coming from you and that perhaps he needs to look at his own actions as they relate to the problem he finds himself in.

He did say they'd be collectibles.  Time to sell them to a different collector!

In all seriousness, OP, I'm sorry you're in this situation but glad you and your fiance are facing it together.

partgypsy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5119 on: December 19, 2018, 12:13:31 PM »
My gifts to DD are totally based on what she wants/needs, and always discussed with her first - so I have given snow tires, coffee tables, etc. - or to be more precise, we discussed budgets and my limits, she bought the items and I forked over the money.  But she thinks of those gifts fondly, the snow tires included - what says caring more than being sure your beloved child is not at risk winter driving?

When she was telling me this story, her husband interrupted to say that you can give earrings to any girl, but the jumper cables were chosen for her particular situation. Also, as a percentage of his disposable cash, the cables were much bigger than the earrings, because he chose heavy-duty, reliable ones.  My friend agreed, and said they still have those cables today.

He gets major brownie points for that gift - he thought of her situation, he wanted her to be safe driving, he got the expensive heavy-duty ones instead of the cheapies.  He showed he cared.

That actually is a sweet story. The guy I'm seeing, there is a 0% chance he would buy me jewelry. But, he helped me renovate my kitchen including making a place for a dishwasher so I'm not chained to the sink doing dishes every day. Bought and helped install nice and more secure front and back doors on my house. Also helped with multiple house emergencies and a car emergency. I really appreciate if he says he's going to do something, even if there are complications or a delay, he does it. In fact I'm still not used to it.

mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5120 on: December 19, 2018, 01:09:52 PM »
Today, we received a message from the kid asking us to buy him a MacBook ďso that he can study better and pass his coursesĒ. Basically, the message said that he is currently behind because:

1) itís the computerís fault because itís too slow to go online and write word documents (computer from 2016/2017)
2) itís the houseís fault because he can study better at the library (already suggested to him in August when he had multiple excuses why it wouldnít work)
3) itís the deskís fault because the ďdesk isnít good for writing onĒ (what the heck does that even mean?!?! And why would you need to write on a desk if youíre doing ONLINE courses?)

We are going to say no and point out that we spent his MacBook money on his tutoring.

Hate to say it, but he doesn't sound like he's taking any of this seriously right now. He's using your tuition support as an excuse to play games and skip school, and now he's using the computer/house/desk as excuses for failing even with tuition support. I don't see this changing until the economic support stops and he finds out that in the real world, no one is handing you money for nothing.

Yup, as part of our response to him, we are going to advise him to get a part-time job and save up for the luxuries he wants. If he fails grade nine even with tutoring then thatís it. Heís used up his one chance and the tutoring stops.

What's the quote...never work harder for someone else than they are willing to work for themselves?

Freedomin5

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5121 on: December 20, 2018, 12:14:47 AM »
It sounds like the only thing that will help him is getting him out of a household that lets him stay up all night and then sleep in the next day and miss school.  Which is not a situation you can solve, unfortunately.

Contact his local department of child services and report that he's missing school because of what his mom does.    Maybe the law will solve the problem, one way or the other.  Doesn't sound like the mom will.

As a foster parent (to a kid that some how dropped out after failing freshman year, but will finally graduate at the age of 20), removing that kid from his family might eventually help him get a high school diploma/GED but it 100% will create an entirely different and potentially longer list of issues.  The "system" is completely screwed up and although that kid not graduating from high school will negatively impact the rest of his life it is not a reason to remove him from his parents and create the trauma that that involves.  There is scientific research out that proves that removing a kid from his parents/home is very traumatic event and will cause lasting damage to the developing brain, unless that kid is in real danger while living in that house it is absolutely better for him to stay in the home. 

If @Freedomin5 wants to help this young teen, finding a way to do that without money (and without trying to have the kid removed from his mom/grandma) would probably be best.  I get the impression that FN5 does not live near the kid, if they do the best help would be to provide support in physically being present for the kid. Go to the house after work and sit down to work on homework with him, call him daily and ask how schoolwork is going, pick him up on weekends and go visit colleges, go shoot a basketball with him for a hour or two, teach him how to drive (if he is old enough), go with him to pick up job applications, find out if there is an HR person at a local factory or other employer that you 2 can go interview together, etc.

@Slow&Steady is spot on. We live on the other side of the world and only see the kid once a year. We do check in with him via Skype every other week. We are in contact with the tutor, and pay her directly (rather than giving mom or the kid the money). If we lived in the country, we would be at that kids house every day working on homework. Heck, I would even drive the kid to school myself. Iíd be visiting teachers and school admin and being that squeaky wheel with his teachers. We considered offering to pay for boarding school, but this kid and his mom have other emotional issues, and mom would not let kid leave her side. So we do what we can.

2Cent

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5122 on: December 20, 2018, 02:40:27 AM »
....

That actually is a sweet story. The guy I'm seeing, there is a 0% chance he would buy me jewelry. But, he helped me renovate my kitchen including making a place for a dishwasher so I'm not chained to the sink doing dishes every day. Bought and helped install nice and more secure front and back doors on my house. Also helped with multiple house emergencies and a car emergency. I really appreciate if he says he's going to do something, even if there are complications or a delay, he does it. In fact I'm still not used to it.

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5123 on: December 21, 2018, 02:57:19 PM »
1) itís the computerís fault because itís too slow to go online and write word documents (computer from 2016/2017)

I know his problem is BS but tell him to put free Mint Linux on his "elderly" computer. The speed will return. He can run it from a flashdrive. If you are lucky it'll spark a CS fascination that he can parlay into a career.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5124 on: December 23, 2018, 02:47:45 PM »
I have a relative with which I always exchange super practical gifts, specifically requested gifts. This year I asked for an expensive air dryer rack for clothes. These things are made of individually powder coated steel bars and held together with replaceable bolts. As opposed to the cheap white powder coated, poorly welded racks that always break.  And relative requested a particular tool for the xmas swap. That's all good, mustachian, even. The reason for this post is the amused comment that I got when I nominated the dryer rack - I should stop being to lazy and just put my clothes in the tumble dryer....... um...wha????

Dicey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5125 on: December 24, 2018, 09:07:08 AM »
I have a relative with which I always exchange super practical gifts, specifically requested gifts. This year I asked for an expensive air dryer rack for clothes. These things are made of individually powder coated steel bars and held together with replaceable bolts. As opposed to the cheap white powder coated, poorly welded racks that always break.  And relative requested a particular tool for the xmas swap. That's all good, mustachian, even. The reason for this post is the amused comment that I got when I nominated the dryer rack - I should stop being to lazy and just put my clothes in the tumble dryer....... um...wha????
@AnnaGrowsAMustache, I'm looking for a high quality drying rack. Care to share details?

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5126 on: December 24, 2018, 10:06:31 AM »
I have a relative with which I always exchange super practical gifts, specifically requested gifts. This year I asked for an expensive air dryer rack for clothes. These things are made of individually powder coated steel bars and held together with replaceable bolts. As opposed to the cheap white powder coated, poorly welded racks that always break.  And relative requested a particular tool for the xmas swap. That's all good, mustachian, even. The reason for this post is the amused comment that I got when I nominated the dryer rack - I should stop being to lazy and just put my clothes in the tumble dryer....... um...wha????
@AnnaGrowsAMustache, I'm looking for a high quality drying rack. Care to share details?

I'm in NZ, so I doubt details would help you..... Nice that someone else appreciates the quality drying rack, though!

Fi(re) on the Farm

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5127 on: December 24, 2018, 04:24:52 PM »
I have a relative with which I always exchange super practical gifts, specifically requested gifts. This year I asked for an expensive air dryer rack for clothes. These things are made of individually powder coated steel bars and held together with replaceable bolts. As opposed to the cheap white powder coated, poorly welded racks that always break.  And relative requested a particular tool for the xmas swap. That's all good, mustachian, even. The reason for this post is the amused comment that I got when I nominated the dryer rack - I should stop being to lazy and just put my clothes in the tumble dryer....... um...wha????
@AnnaGrowsAMustache, I'm looking for a high quality drying rack. Care to share details?

I'm in NZ, so I doubt details would help you..... Nice that someone else appreciates the quality drying rack, though!

Me too! I have two heavy duty wood ones and a couple of metal ones, I'd love to have a really good sturdy one.

Freedomin5

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5128 on: December 25, 2018, 05:54:27 PM »
Argh...just need to vent...

The Background:
We pay for tutoring for a young family member who is at risk of failing high school because he stays up all night gaming, canít wake up for school the next morning, lives in a volatile household, and his mom says ďgrowing boys need their sleepĒ and doesnít make him go to school. This kid recently (last year) got a high end gaming computer. He also has an older laptop, a tablet, and a smart phone. Mom is on government assistance and they live with grandma practically rent-free. Kid is currently doing online courses after failing out of grade nine because he is a delicate snowflake who canít handle the rough highschool environment. We spend about $100/week on intensive tutoring for the kid to help him keep on top of his assignments because thereís no way this kid can manage a self-study program.

Today, we received a message from the kid asking us to buy him a MacBook ďso that he can study better and pass his coursesĒ. Basically, the message said that he is currently behind because:

1) itís the computerís fault because itís too slow to go online and write word documents (computer from 2016/2017)
2) itís the houseís fault because he can study better at the library (already suggested to him in August when he had multiple excuses why it wouldnít work)
3) itís the deskís fault because the ďdesk isnít good for writing onĒ (what the heck does that even mean?!?! And why would you need to write on a desk if youíre doing ONLINE courses?)

We are going to say no and point out that we spent his MacBook money on his tutoring.

I have an update. I like posting here because you guys "get it", whereas I have to Explain The Obvious in real life because some people "don't get it".

Anyway, I was looking over bank statements because it's the end of the year and noticed that we haven't been paying the tutor for the past two weeks. We have been keeping in touch with the kid's mom on a weekly basis, and she never mentioned anything. So I reached out to the tutor to try to figure out what's going on. Turns out the mom stopped tutoring because the "kid is focusing on other subjects right now". I don't even know what that means because this tutor was responsible for helping him with ALL his subjects. Mom said that the 2+ hours of tutoring he was receiving was "too much for him to handle" because he has other stuff he needs to do. What other stuff?!?! The kid sleeps in until noon every day and then games for another good chunk of the day. ARGH!!! (Oh, and calling CPS is a no go because there isn't actually any abuse going on, and it was the public school that asked the kid to leave and do his lessons online, so technically he is still "in school", and even though his household has some stupid thinking patterns, it's actually quite stable. You can't call CPS because someone is stupid.).

No wonder the kid asked for a new laptop. It's to help him study better because he now doesn't have a tutor. He and his mom do not understand that having a new electronic will not help him with planning and organization, time management, etc. -- all those important executive functioning skills that help you hold a job and be an Independent and Successful human being.

Well, I'm sitting on the fence in terms of continuing to provide tutoring. You know how they say, you can teach a man to fish and give him a new fishing pole, but you can't actually make him pick up the pole and actually fish, or he may sell the pole because...I don't why you would sell the pole. I can't figure it out. But I have a feeling this kind of thinking is what keeps people poor and downtrodden.

/rant over

sapphail

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5129 on: December 25, 2018, 06:44:11 PM »
Turns out the mom stopped tutoring because the "kid is focusing on other subjects right now". I don't even know what that means because this tutor was responsible for helping him with ALL his subjects. Mom said that the 2+ hours of tutoring he was receiving was "too much for him to handle" because he has other stuff he needs to do.

Well, I'm sitting on the fence in terms of continuing to provide tutoring. You know how they say, you can teach a man to fish and give him a new fishing pole, but you can't actually make him pick up the pole and actually fish, or he may sell the pole because...I don't why you would sell the pole. I can't figure it out. But I have a feeling this kind of thinking is what keeps people poor and downtrodden.

Honestly, I think you've done all you can do at this point, and you've got the patience of a saint for trying to help him for as long as you have. One of two things needs to happen at this stage - either the kid needs to realize his life is going to go nowhere doing what he's doing and develop a work ethic (unlikely, given his mother's enabling), or his mum needs to realize that she's not doing him any favours and light a fire under his arse (equally unlikely). I don't think his mum is going to realize this is a bad idea until he's 25, still living with her and still playing video games all day.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5130 on: December 25, 2018, 06:45:01 PM »
Argh...


Don't toss more good money after bad.   They won't do it.   Unless something in that kid's mind or heart changes, he's just a lost soul.  Let him be lost on his own time and own dime.  Ditto with his parent(s).


Not your circus, not your monkeys.

tralfamadorian

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5131 on: December 25, 2018, 06:50:16 PM »
I finally have a good one for this thread. Relative came by with toddler wearing prada shoes. *dead*

Dicey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5132 on: December 25, 2018, 07:35:48 PM »
I finally have a good one for this thread. Relative came by with toddler wearing prada shoes. *dead*
My grandbaby lives in Aspen. She got brand-name skis for Christmas...from the Sporting Goods Resale Store. Same place I bought DH a lululemon jacket for $20, then found $15 inside a small zippered pocket. They also have a great (3 story!) thrift shop right downtown. Mommy used to be a nanny, so she also gets super high-end hand-me-downs from rich former clients for zero dollars.
Now, if those Prada shoes still had price tags on them, that might be another story. But don't forget - doting grandparents are known to do stoopid things.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5133 on: December 25, 2018, 09:45:13 PM »
Argh...just need to vent...

The Background:
We pay for tutoring for a young family member who is at risk of failing high school because he stays up all night gaming, canít wake up for school the next morning, lives in a volatile household, and his mom says ďgrowing boys need their sleepĒ and doesnít make him go to school. This kid recently (last year) got a high end gaming computer. He also has an older laptop, a tablet, and a smart phone. Mom is on government assistance and they live with grandma practically rent-free. Kid is currently doing online courses after failing out of grade nine because he is a delicate snowflake who canít handle the rough highschool environment. We spend about $100/week on intensive tutoring for the kid to help him keep on top of his assignments because thereís no way this kid can manage a self-study program.

Today, we received a message from the kid asking us to buy him a MacBook ďso that he can study better and pass his coursesĒ. Basically, the message said that he is currently behind because:

1) itís the computerís fault because itís too slow to go online and write word documents (computer from 2016/2017)
2) itís the houseís fault because he can study better at the library (already suggested to him in August when he had multiple excuses why it wouldnít work)
3) itís the deskís fault because the ďdesk isnít good for writing onĒ (what the heck does that even mean?!?! And why would you need to write on a desk if youíre doing ONLINE courses?)

We are going to say no and point out that we spent his MacBook money on his tutoring.

I have an update. I like posting here because you guys "get it", whereas I have to Explain The Obvious in real life because some people "don't get it".

Anyway, I was looking over bank statements because it's the end of the year and noticed that we haven't been paying the tutor for the past two weeks. We have been keeping in touch with the kid's mom on a weekly basis, and she never mentioned anything. So I reached out to the tutor to try to figure out what's going on. Turns out the mom stopped tutoring because the "kid is focusing on other subjects right now". I don't even know what that means because this tutor was responsible for helping him with ALL his subjects. Mom said that the 2+ hours of tutoring he was receiving was "too much for him to handle" because he has other stuff he needs to do. What other stuff?!?! The kid sleeps in until noon every day and then games for another good chunk of the day. ARGH!!! (Oh, and calling CPS is a no go because there isn't actually any abuse going on, and it was the public school that asked the kid to leave and do his lessons online, so technically he is still "in school", and even though his household has some stupid thinking patterns, it's actually quite stable. You can't call CPS because someone is stupid.).

No wonder the kid asked for a new laptop. It's to help him study better because he now doesn't have a tutor. He and his mom do not understand that having a new electronic will not help him with planning and organization, time management, etc. -- all those important executive functioning skills that help you hold a job and be an Independent and Successful human being.

Well, I'm sitting on the fence in terms of continuing to provide tutoring. You know how they say, you can teach a man to fish and give him a new fishing pole, but you can't actually make him pick up the pole and actually fish, or he may sell the pole because...I don't why you would sell the pole. I can't figure it out. But I have a feeling this kind of thinking is what keeps people poor and downtrodden.

/rant over

You can't help people; you can only help them help themselves. None of the people in this story are helping themselves.

Nederstash

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5134 on: December 26, 2018, 05:45:12 AM »
I've posted about my oldest brother before. He has induced facepalms that would put Jean-Luc Picard to shame and he's currently prepping for the biggest mistake yet. He's 42, his girlfriend 44. He has a really bad work history, because, according to him, no one listens to his great ideas. He says he just can't work under a boss (this is probably true...). Anyway, after a string of jobs with some unemployment tossed in there, he's a self-employed manager. He has had a business in the past, that did well. By now he's been working as an independent manager, working for a big company, going on 3 years now. He's doing well, he's taking home 5k a month (after tax!) and his girlfriend around 4k a month.

He really wants to buy a house. He has no retirement saved - NONE at all. This house will be his retirement plan.
Being self-empoyed means he didn't qualify for a mortgage until the 3 year mark. That'll happen in the next few months, same for his girlfriend (also self-employed). I visited him recently, he's all giddy:

Him: The bank will let us pick something for a million!
Me: What, seriously?
Him: Yeah, that's the top mortgage we can afford.
Me: So, in what range are you going to search?
Him: *owlish blinking*
Me: I mean, you're not going for a full million, right? You wanted to pay it off for retirement?
Him: That's 25 years away, plenty of time to pay it down.
Me: ooo-kay. So what are you doing for a downpayment?
Him: We've been saving up for that.
Me: Good for you! For a house that price, I'm thinking you'll put down 20% or so? So... 200k?"
Him: *looks like I grew another head* N-no, not that much.
*awkward pause*
Him: You meant, how much we saved for closing costs? We'll have that covered.

You guys, I just couldn't... My brain gave a compiling error and just noped out. With their combined take home pay of 9k a month and the rent that's only 1200, I figured they'd be stashing. Even with 2k spending a month on top of their rent, they'd have been able to stash 200k in 3 years.

In hindsight, of course they didn't stash that much. There's 2 brand new cars, an Audi and a BMW. They go on weekend getaways every other weekend: Paris, London, Bruges, or some castle in the French or German countryside (the wine region of course!). That's every other weekend. (We live in the Netherlands btw, that's between the UK and Germany). For their actual holidays, 3 times a year, they do shit like cruises (most recently to Oman and Qatar I think?), or going to Dubai, Bali, Africa.

Of course they've got jack shit saved. And no way can they keep up that lifestyle with a 1 million euro chain around their neck. No way can they pay a mortgage off early or even save anything else for retirement. The only thing I can hope for is that he doesn't hit my parents up for a bailout again. There's still a 35k loan outstanding. Oh, and I can hope he keeps his job...

I feel shitty for posting this online but I can't actually discuss this with anyone who knows him. It's so frustrating but he won't take me seriously at all! I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall! AAARGH

Dicey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5135 on: December 26, 2018, 09:18:43 AM »
I see no reason for you to feel shitty, @Nederstash. It's not like you're naming names. This is a good place to vent.

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5136 on: December 26, 2018, 09:35:53 AM »
Maybe with no down payment the bank wonít loan them that much money.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5137 on: December 26, 2018, 10:02:27 AM »
Nederstash Your brother is able to bring home $5,000 after taxes but is this dumb with buying a million dollar house? At best he should start smaller and work up after he sees the costs of home ownership. He seems to like his freedom to travel so this will put a crimp in his lifestyle. He could have the best of both worlds if he would buy a modest home in good condition so he doesn't have to put much money into it. Buying a house is much more than plunking down the money to buy it. Things go wrong, things break down. Heating systems get old, ac gets old, appliances break. Yardwork requires equipment, or you need to hire someone to do the work...more money. Then has he even considered the taxes on the million dollar home? OMG!

Not sure how close you are to your brother but if you are, maybe you could write out several sensible scenario's to show him on paper how one scenario is going to drag him down to the gutter and another scenario will allow him the best of both worlds of a modest house that is affordable and allow for the travel he loves.

How can he be smart enough to make big bucks and is so clueless on buying a million dollar house. So many rich people have bought into buying lots of real estate only to find they end up bankrupt.

 

Nederstash

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5138 on: December 26, 2018, 01:50:32 PM »
Thanks, guys! Felt good to vent, I needed that. I used to be close to my brother, at least until I started behaving like an adult (err.. 25 or so). My brother is 10 years older than me and we've always gotten along in the big brother-little sister dynamic. Ever since I really settled into adult life and began to have actual opinions on houses, finances, work etc, we became more like equals. I wasn't looking up to him anymore, I was challenging him on his ideas. I think that's when our relationship grew more distant. I suspect he might not be willing or able to grasp that he might be wrong and I might be right.

Family's weird, man. I'll give it another go, thanks for the suggestion @Roadrunner53. But that's my final try.

Shivan

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5139 on: December 26, 2018, 08:13:58 PM »
I got a lottery ticket for Christmas. Mother-in-law says if I win, I need to add a room to my house. For months, she's been telling my wife things like "I think you'd be happier with some more room". We're all staying together for the next week and I'll need to bite my tongue from saying "OH I'M SORRY, IS MY 3-BR, 2400-SQ FOOT HOUSE NOT BIG ENOUGH FOR MY FAMILY OF FOUR? AT LEAST I DIDN'T LOSE MY HOUSE TO FORECLOSURE SIX YEARS AGO LIKE YOU DID. AT LEAST I DIDN'T REMOVE VALUE FROM MY NEW HOUSE BY COMBINING TWO BEDROOMS INTO ONE LIKE YOU DID. AT LEAST I DON'T HAVE THREE STORAGE BUILDINGS FULL OF CRAP LIKE YOU DO. AT LEAST I DON'T PAY 25% CREDIT CARD INTEREST LIKE YOU DO. AT LEAST I'M NOT SIXTY YEARS OLD AND WORKS LONG HOURS AND HAS A NEGATIVE NET WORTH LIKE YOU. IF YOU THINK ANYONE NEEDS ANOTHER ROOM FULL OF CRAP TO BE HAPPY, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPINESS IS!"

Dicey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5140 on: December 26, 2018, 08:43:58 PM »
LMAO. That is a beautiful mustachian rant. You go, @Shivan!

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5141 on: December 26, 2018, 09:35:40 PM »
Shiva, your house is huge for 4 people. 5 of us in 1800 sq ft and we thought we had died and went to heaven:))

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5142 on: December 26, 2018, 09:38:26 PM »
I got a lottery ticket for Christmas. Mother-in-law says if I win, I need to add a room to my house. For months, she's been telling my wife things like "I think you'd be happier with some more room". We're all staying together for the next week and I'll need to bite my tongue from saying "OH I'M SORRY, IS MY 3-BR, 2400-SQ FOOT HOUSE NOT BIG ENOUGH FOR MY FAMILY OF FOUR? AT LEAST I DIDN'T LOSE MY HOUSE TO FORECLOSURE SIX YEARS AGO LIKE YOU DID. AT LEAST I DIDN'T REMOVE VALUE FROM MY NEW HOUSE BY COMBINING TWO BEDROOMS INTO ONE LIKE YOU DID. AT LEAST I DON'T HAVE THREE STORAGE BUILDINGS FULL OF CRAP LIKE YOU DO. AT LEAST I DON'T PAY 25% CREDIT CARD INTEREST LIKE YOU DO. AT LEAST I'M NOT SIXTY YEARS OLD AND WORKS LONG HOURS AND HAS A NEGATIVE NET WORTH LIKE YOU. IF YOU THINK ANYONE NEEDS ANOTHER ROOM FULL OF CRAP TO BE HAPPY, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPINESS IS!"

ahahhahhaha, love it! Funny how the financially dim always know what you need.

Fi(re) on the Farm

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5143 on: December 27, 2018, 05:21:56 AM »
I got a lottery ticket for Christmas. Mother-in-law says if I win, I need to add a room to my house. For months, she's been telling my wife things like "I think you'd be happier with some more room". We're all staying together for the next week and I'll need to bite my tongue from saying "OH I'M SORRY, IS MY 3-BR, 2400-SQ FOOT HOUSE NOT BIG ENOUGH FOR MY FAMILY OF FOUR? AT LEAST I DIDN'T LOSE MY HOUSE TO FORECLOSURE SIX YEARS AGO LIKE YOU DID. AT LEAST I DIDN'T REMOVE VALUE FROM MY NEW HOUSE BY COMBINING TWO BEDROOMS INTO ONE LIKE YOU DID. AT LEAST I DON'T HAVE THREE STORAGE BUILDINGS FULL OF CRAP LIKE YOU DO. AT LEAST I DON'T PAY 25% CREDIT CARD INTEREST LIKE YOU DO. AT LEAST I'M NOT SIXTY YEARS OLD AND WORKS LONG HOURS AND HAS A NEGATIVE NET WORTH LIKE YOU. IF YOU THINK ANYONE NEEDS ANOTHER ROOM FULL OF CRAP TO BE HAPPY, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPINESS IS!"

That's an epic rant - if it was my MIL she'd want us to build an extra room because she wants someplace to live when she's broke.

Dicey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5144 on: December 27, 2018, 06:12:24 AM »
I got a lottery ticket for Christmas. Mother-in-law says if I win, I need to add a room to my house. For months, she's been telling my wife things like "I think you'd be happier with some more room". We're all staying together for the next week and I'll need to bite my tongue from saying "OH I'M SORRY, IS MY 3-BR, 2400-SQ FOOT HOUSE NOT BIG ENOUGH FOR MY FAMILY OF FOUR? AT LEAST I DIDN'T LOSE MY HOUSE TO FORECLOSURE SIX YEARS AGO LIKE YOU DID. AT LEAST I DIDN'T REMOVE VALUE FROM MY NEW HOUSE BY COMBINING TWO BEDROOMS INTO ONE LIKE YOU DID. AT LEAST I DON'T HAVE THREE STORAGE BUILDINGS FULL OF CRAP LIKE YOU DO. AT LEAST I DON'T PAY 25% CREDIT CARD INTEREST LIKE YOU DO. AT LEAST I'M NOT SIXTY YEARS OLD AND WORKS LONG HOURS AND HAS A NEGATIVE NET WORTH LIKE YOU. IF YOU THINK ANYONE NEEDS ANOTHER ROOM FULL OF CRAP TO BE HAPPY, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPINESS IS!"

That's an epic rant - if it was my MIL she'd want us to build an extra room because she wants someplace to live when she's broke.
Funny, I was expecting that to be part of Shivan's epic rant. Maybe fear of that is the fuel. Personally, I'd be very worried. Hell, I'd be looking into the Witness Protection Program.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5145 on: December 27, 2018, 07:21:50 AM »
Family's weird, man. I'll give it another go, thanks for the suggestion @Roadrunner53. But that's my final try.
challenging their choices head on may produce more backlash than progress. A more effective approach may be to ask questions that will lead him to realize the folly of his path. "Wow, $1m is a lot of mortgage! What's the monthly payment like?" "Does that mean you'll have to pay for anything that breaks, like a furnace?" "Are there property taxes on it, too?"

OtherJen

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5146 on: December 27, 2018, 10:38:03 AM »
Family's weird, man. I'll give it another go, thanks for the suggestion @Roadrunner53. But that's my final try.
challenging their choices head on may produce more backlash than progress. A more effective approach may be to ask questions that will lead him to realize the folly of his path. "Wow, $1m is a lot of mortgage! What's the monthly payment like?" "Does that mean you'll have to pay for anything that breaks, like a furnace?" "Are there property taxes on it, too?"

Or you could simply waste your breath and have the joy (sarcasm) of hearing them complain about those things 2 years later.

I have a couple of friends who recently bought a big first house that they really couldn't afford or manage even on two salaries. Because their parents gave them the full downpayment and they had a lot of lines of credit with which to fill the house with furniture, they waived off all of my kind suggestions (from more than a decade of homeownership) to make sure that they set aside money for taxes, insurance, and upkeep. Two years later, they're living on debtóalthough they "had" to hire a housekeeper because they're always working and because their neighbors all have housekeepersóand complaining about how expensive their property taxes are. Between the complaining, the fawning over perceived wealthier neighbors, and the condescending comments about my small house, I've definitely reduced the amount of time that I spend with them.

Apples

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5147 on: December 28, 2018, 08:51:52 AM »
Family's weird, man. I'll give it another go, thanks for the suggestion @Roadrunner53. But that's my final try.
challenging their choices head on may produce more backlash than progress. A more effective approach may be to ask questions that will lead him to realize the folly of his path. "Wow, $1m is a lot of mortgage! What's the monthly payment like?" "Does that mean you'll have to pay for anything that breaks, like a furnace?" "Are there property taxes on it, too?"

+1,000,000.  This is the most effective strategy I've found for challenging ideas while in a public place and/or trying to socialize.  Make comments about "wow, you're so confident, you must have really sat down and looked hard at your budget", "is there anything you'll have to give up for the house?  I know that kind of thing can be worth it", "man, when the A/C breaks that's a lot of house to cool back down", "do you know who you're going to call for big repairs", "any idea, % wise, how much more utilities will be?"  All said in a polite, interested tone of voice.  Usually the other person changes the conversation when they start getting uncomfortable.  This doesn't work on jerks who would turn it around and call you weird for asking so many boring/money questions, just live life man.  Also works well to shut down the convo when MLM products come up.  Ask them what's in in and how it works.  Demand a specific answer.  All with enthusiasm, as if if you could only understand how it worked, you'd of course buy some.

LPG

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5148 on: December 28, 2018, 10:06:51 AM »
Family's weird, man. I'll give it another go, thanks for the suggestion @Roadrunner53. But that's my final try.
challenging their choices head on may produce more backlash than progress. A more effective approach may be to ask questions that will lead him to realize the folly of his path. "Wow, $1m is a lot of mortgage! What's the monthly payment like?" "Does that mean you'll have to pay for anything that breaks, like a furnace?" "Are there property taxes on it, too?"

+1,000,000.  This is the most effective strategy I've found for challenging ideas while in a public place and/or trying to socialize.  Make comments about "wow, you're so confident, you must have really sat down and looked hard at your budget", "is there anything you'll have to give up for the house?  I know that kind of thing can be worth it", "man, when the A/C breaks that's a lot of house to cool back down", "do you know who you're going to call for big repairs", "any idea, % wise, how much more utilities will be?"  All said in a polite, interested tone of voice.  Usually the other person changes the conversation when they start getting uncomfortable.  This doesn't work on jerks who would turn it around and call you weird for asking so many boring/money questions, just live life man.  Also works well to shut down the convo when MLM products come up.  Ask them what's in in and how it works.  Demand a specific answer.  All with enthusiasm, as if if you could only understand how it worked, you'd of course buy some.

Ahahahahaha! Well, I think I've just learned that I'm socially awkward. I usually behave that way out of genuine enthusiasm and a desire to understand. And to even give it a chance, and consider it. I wonder how often I accidentally make people so uncomfortable that they back down, when really I'm just trying to make sense of it and hoping to get excited.

Nederstash

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #5149 on: December 28, 2018, 02:48:03 PM »
Family's weird, man. I'll give it another go, thanks for the suggestion @Roadrunner53. But that's my final try.
challenging their choices head on may produce more backlash than progress. A more effective approach may be to ask questions that will lead him to realize the folly of his path. "Wow, $1m is a lot of mortgage! What's the monthly payment like?" "Does that mean you'll have to pay for anything that breaks, like a furnace?" "Are there property taxes on it, too?"

+1,000,000.  This is the most effective strategy I've found for challenging ideas while in a public place and/or trying to socialize.  Make comments about "wow, you're so confident, you must have really sat down and looked hard at your budget", "is there anything you'll have to give up for the house?  I know that kind of thing can be worth it", "man, when the A/C breaks that's a lot of house to cool back down", "do you know who you're going to call for big repairs", "any idea, % wise, how much more utilities will be?"  All said in a polite, interested tone of voice.  Usually the other person changes the conversation when they start getting uncomfortable.  This doesn't work on jerks who would turn it around and call you weird for asking so many boring/money questions, just live life man.  Also works well to shut down the convo when MLM products come up.  Ask them what's in in and how it works.  Demand a specific answer.  All with enthusiasm, as if if you could only understand how it worked, you'd of course buy some.

these are great questions, definitely gonna use them!