Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 1584086 times)

saguaro

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4950 on: October 25, 2018, 12:01:36 PM »
The fair thing would be to adjust the estate shares to compensate for people who "got theirs early" but the siblings knew Dad would never do that, it divides everything equally.  So that only encouraged the siblings to hold their hand out early and often. My friend will not get what he should have but he's not bitter about it.

DH is somewhat bitter about it.  As much as I try to point out that he was able to make it on his own (and should be proud of that) plus he's better off as a mustachian for it, he's still miffed that his parents favored his sister.  It not because of the money but the inequality. It says to him that he is less important and he's never forgotten that.  It doesn't help that my in laws stupidly made comparisons to his sister's husband who was making more money while DH was young, getting his start on his career and wasn't making as much.  And then finding out during that same time that his parents were supporting SIL with EOC, on top of the money her husband brought in.  They were pretty unkind about that at times so personally I think they are pretty fortunate that their son is even talking to them.

I think a friend of mine hit the nail on the head when she said that unequal distributions from parents to siblings, whether in life or after it, are almost always seen as unequal distributions of love from parents to their children.  And as the distribution after death is the last distribution it sets that inequality in stone, for ever.  Could you help your DH see how to separate the money from the love?  Or even, at an extreme, help his parents to do so?

I agree with your friend.   For a long time, I was angry over the unfairness as well and it was because I saw it the same way: as lack of love for DH. That pissed me off.  However, in recent years, I have come to realize that down deep DH's parents do love him in spite of the money given to the sister, even if they don't say it and act in weird ways.   I think the money to the sister is really given from a place of deep unhappiness and insecurity, wanting to buy her love and love of her children, which she manipulated (she's a self professed operator) while DH is simply not wired that way.    I have pointed this out to DH, and also told him that if anything happened to him, I think they would be devastated, far more than they realize.    I am not sure I have entirely convinced DH though, while he doesn't seem as angry/hurt about it as before and agrees with me, he still maintains that giving what they gave to his sister is quite a lot, which it is, and maybe it's just something that will always be there.  Any unlikely change in the estate planning to make it "more fair", won't make it fair in his mind anyway because so much has been given already.   

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4951 on: October 25, 2018, 01:27:43 PM »
We have a family member who is overweight with physical and mental health problems. He took up boxing two months ago because this type of focused exercise is good for him physically, mentally, and emotionally. We just heard that his mom is making him quit because itís too expensive. Mom is low income. When we questioned further, we found out that:

1. He was getting private lessons to the tune of $100/hour.
2. He was doing this a couple times per week.
3. He cannot join a gym or group lesson because he is a special snowflake. (Not her exact words, but that was the gist).

Itís kind of frustrating. I think mom was trying to drop hints for us to cover his lessons. Umm...no. 8% of our monthly spending already goes to this kid for private tutoring because he failed high school last year. Heís going to need to find a cheaper way to get exercise.

Buy him a $25 bicycle from Craigslist. Help him get the maintenance sorted (safe) and teach him how to lock it up and keep it out of the weather. Lots of exercise can be had. Freedom. And transportation so he can get a job (the real goal). He could ride it across the country were he so inclined.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 01:37:46 PM by Just Joe »

magnet18

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4952 on: October 25, 2018, 02:26:56 PM »
Not only did my cousin buy a new Jeep, they bought a paperweight

Cousin and her husband already both drive newish SUVs.

Cousins husband bought her a new jeep a few months ago to surprise her.  Not any jeep, but the most expensive trail hawk with ALL the options

I assumed she would sell her other daily driver SUV... Nope... Just found out it's still her daily driver.

She doesn't want to drive it because parking is tight, so she driver her smaller, couple year old suv...

Alright, so we've established neither of them daily drive it... What about that roadtrip, or any off the beaten path adventures?

Nope, they don't want to take the purpose built off-road vehicle off road or on any remote backroads...
And they don't want to take it on long trips because THEY DON'T WANT TO PUT TOO MANY MILES ON IT

I'm absolutley dumbfounded, they bought an $80,000 paperweight they they pay insurance and interest and registration for, and it just sits in their garage depreciating rapidly...

I guess they occasionally get groceries in it

I can't even concept

ketchup

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4953 on: October 25, 2018, 02:43:57 PM »
Not only did my cousin buy a new Jeep, they bought a paperweight

Cousin and her husband already both drive newish SUVs.

Cousins husband bought her a new jeep a few months ago to surprise her.  Not any jeep, but the most expensive trail hawk with ALL the options

I assumed she would sell her other daily driver SUV... Nope... Just found out it's still her daily driver.

She doesn't want to drive it because parking is tight, so she driver her smaller, couple year old suv...

Alright, so we've established neither of them daily drive it... What about that roadtrip, or any off the beaten path adventures?

Nope, they don't want to take the purpose built off-road vehicle off road or on any remote backroads...
And they don't want to take it on long trips because THEY DON'T WANT TO PUT TOO MANY MILES ON IT

I'm absolutley dumbfounded, they bought an $80,000 paperweight they they pay insurance and interest and registration for, and it just sits in their garage depreciating rapidly...

I guess they occasionally get groceries in it

I can't even concept
Surprise, honey, I spent $80,000!

I'll never understand why anyone wouldn't file for divorce that evening...

RWD

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4954 on: October 25, 2018, 03:11:54 PM »
Not any jeep, but the most expensive trail hawk with ALL the options

[...] they bought an $80,000 paperweight

Are you sure it was the Trailhawk? The Grand Cherokee Trailhawk is only $43.6k MSRP and I doubt options would double the price. The TrackHawk is $86.2k MSRP + options, so that seems more likely. 707 hp on that bad boy...

Freedomin5

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4955 on: October 25, 2018, 04:51:55 PM »
We have a family member who is overweight with physical and mental health problems. He took up boxing two months ago because this type of focused exercise is good for him physically, mentally, and emotionally. We just heard that his mom is making him quit because itís too expensive. Mom is low income. When we questioned further, we found out that:

1. He was getting private lessons to the tune of $100/hour.
2. He was doing this a couple times per week.
3. He cannot join a gym or group lesson because he is a special snowflake. (Not her exact words, but that was the gist).

Itís kind of frustrating. I think mom was trying to drop hints for us to cover his lessons. Umm...no. 8% of our monthly spending already goes to this kid for private tutoring because he failed high school last year. Heís going to need to find a cheaper way to get exercise.

Buy him a $25 bicycle from Craigslist. Help him get the maintenance sorted (safe) and teach him how to lock it up and keep it out of the weather. Lots of exercise can be had. Freedom. And transportation so he can get a job (the real goal). He could ride it across the country were he so inclined.

@Just Joe  He has one. DH left his $1000 road bike for him all tuned up. Mom wonít let him ride it because ďitís too dangerousĒ, and anyway, he has no where to go because he stays home and plays video games all day. You can see how frustrating this situation is. You really canít do anything to help people who wonít help themselves.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 10:54:54 PM by Freedomin5 »

nouveauRiche

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4956 on: October 25, 2018, 06:30:54 PM »
Not only did my cousin buy a new Jeep, they bought a paperweight

Surprise, honey, I spent $80,000!

I'll never understand why anyone wouldn't file for divorce that evening...

A few years ago we were watching TV and saw an ad where the wife looks outside on Christmas morning and there's a new Mercedes out front with a big red bow on it. 

I turned to DH and said these words: "I would kill you." 

Not that there's any danger - DH & I are luckily cut from the same piece of cloth.

magnet18

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4957 on: October 26, 2018, 04:41:14 AM »
Not only did my cousin buy a new Jeep, they bought a paperweight

Surprise, honey, I spent $80,000!

I'll never understand why anyone wouldn't file for divorce that evening...

A few years ago we were watching TV and saw an ad where the wife looks outside on Christmas morning and there's a new Mercedes out front with a big red bow on it. 

I turned to DH and said these words: "I would kill you." 

Not that there's any danger - DH & I are luckily cut from the same piece of cloth.

Oh yea, I wasn't there, but according to DW it was literally in the driveway with a big bow when she got home
I think it was birthday or anniversary or something

Let's say they attract each other for a reason, she was absolutely thrilled

The whole family was thrilled... Such a sweet romantic thing to do, they say, as they complain about never retiring


Not any jeep, but the most expensive trail hawk with ALL the options

[...] they bought an $80,000 paperweight

Are you sure it was the Trailhawk? The Grand Cherokee Trailhawk is only $43.6k MSRP and I doubt options would double the price. The TrackHawk is $86.2k MSRP + options, so that seems more likely. 707 hp on that bad boy...

I didn't look up the MSRP, Whatever a fully loaded Wrangler is plus title and tax

Yea, the one with a solid front axle, purpose built for off roading, that is terrible on road, with 4 doors and heated leather seats and an expensive hard top that has never been removed

RWD

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4958 on: October 26, 2018, 06:42:56 AM »
Not any jeep, but the most expensive trail hawk with ALL the options

[...] they bought an $80,000 paperweight

Are you sure it was the Trailhawk? The Grand Cherokee Trailhawk is only $43.6k MSRP and I doubt options would double the price. The TrackHawk is $86.2k MSRP + options, so that seems more likely. 707 hp on that bad boy...

I didn't look up the MSRP, Whatever a fully loaded Wrangler is plus title and tax

Yea, the one with a solid front axle, purpose built for off roading, that is terrible on road, with 4 doors and heated leather seats and an expensive hard top that has never been removed

Huh, I couldn't find a Trailhawk version of the Wrangler on Jeep's website. The most expensive one I could find is the Wrangler Rubicon which is $41.4k MSRP. In the configurator I was able to get it up to $60.7k by ticking every option box that increased the price.

tralfamadorian

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4959 on: October 26, 2018, 06:54:55 AM »
Jesus, wranglers have gotten expensive. I paid $14k for mine brand new back in the day.

Slow&Steady

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4960 on: October 26, 2018, 06:59:46 AM »
Not only did my cousin buy a new Jeep, they bought a paperweight

Surprise, honey, I spent $80,000!

I'll never understand why anyone wouldn't file for divorce that evening...

A few years ago we were watching TV and saw an ad where the wife looks outside on Christmas morning and there's a new Mercedes out front with a big red bow on it. 

I turned to DH and said these words: "I would kill you." 

Not that there's any danger - DH & I are luckily cut from the same piece of cloth.

I have told my SO multiple times that if he ever gets me DEBT for a gift then there is zero chance that he knows who I am and we will need some serious counseling if we are going to make things work.

RWD

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4961 on: October 26, 2018, 07:12:52 AM »
Jesus, wranglers have gotten expensive. I paid $14k for mine brand new back in the day.

You can still get one for $24k. They were $14k back in 1998, which is $22k today, so the price increases have barely exceeded inflation.

Goldielocks

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4962 on: October 26, 2018, 05:19:36 PM »
I think the appropriate reply when you see an extravagant gift is "Wow,  Thanks, honey, however did you save up enough money for all of this?"

The answer will signal the next direction of the conversation.

Megma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4963 on: October 26, 2018, 06:52:43 PM »
Not only did my cousin buy a new Jeep, they bought a paperweight

Surprise, honey, I spent $80,000!

I'll never understand why anyone wouldn't file for divorce that evening...

A few years ago we were watching TV and saw an ad where the wife looks outside on Christmas morning and there's a new Mercedes out front with a big red bow on it. 

I turned to DH and said these words: "I would kill you." 

Not that there's any danger - DH & I are luckily cut from the same piece of cloth.

I have told my SO multiple times that if he ever gets me DEBT for a gift then there is zero chance that he knows who I am and we will need some serious counseling if we are going to make things work.

These comments killed me, I read them to DH and told him 3 reasons I donít want a surprise Mercedes:
1. I want to choose my own car, I have to drive it every day.
2. Iíd want a Tesla, duh.
3. Better not spend that much money without talking about it. The real issue of course 🙂

Sugaree

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4964 on: October 26, 2018, 07:38:10 PM »
Not only did my cousin buy a new Jeep, they bought a paperweight

Surprise, honey, I spent $80,000!

I'll never understand why anyone wouldn't file for divorce that evening...

A few years ago we were watching TV and saw an ad where the wife looks outside on Christmas morning and there's a new Mercedes out front with a big red bow on it. 

I turned to DH and said these words: "I would kill you." 

Not that there's any danger - DH & I are luckily cut from the same piece of cloth.

I have told my SO multiple times that if he ever gets me DEBT for a gift then there is zero chance that he knows who I am and we will need some serious counseling if we are going to make things work.

My ex did this kind of crap.  Like the birthday that I asked him to not spend money we didn't have.  When he insisted that I pick something I asked for a particular pair of shoes to replace the pair of been wearing for 10 years.   I got the camera and memory card that he wanted and a gift card to a place that didn't even carry the brand of shoes I wanted. Just part of why he's an ex.

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4965 on: October 26, 2018, 09:52:11 PM »
Neither of us spends more than 100 without agreeing.

VividPixels

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4966 on: October 27, 2018, 08:02:02 AM »
Interesting that DH, their son who never got a penny of EOC from them, does talk to them and makes a point to remain in contact as they get older.

What's EOC? It's been driving me crazy for a couple days now.

Freedomin5

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4967 on: October 27, 2018, 08:32:37 AM »
@VividPixels Economic Outpatient Care

OtherJen

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4968 on: October 27, 2018, 09:09:01 AM »
Interesting that DH, their son who never got a penny of EOC from them, does talk to them and makes a point to remain in contact as they get older.

What's EOC? It's been driving me crazy for a couple days now.

Economic outpatient care. I think it's from The Millionaire Next Door.

RWD

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4969 on: October 27, 2018, 09:12:15 AM »
Interesting that DH, their son who never got a penny of EOC from them, does talk to them and makes a point to remain in contact as they get older.

What's EOC? It's been driving me crazy for a couple days now.

Economic Outpatient Care, probably.

fredbear

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4970 on: October 27, 2018, 09:38:08 AM »


What's EOC? It's been driving me crazy for a couple days now.
Economic Outpatient Care.  After Thomas Stanley.  Duck duck go is your friend.

VividPixels

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4971 on: October 27, 2018, 09:41:32 AM »
Economic outpatient care. I think it's from The Millionaire Next Door.

Ah, thanks! Also, sympathy to GatorNation / saguaro about the family drama...

Raenia

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4972 on: October 27, 2018, 11:49:26 AM »
Interesting that DH, their son who never got a penny of EOC from them, does talk to them and makes a point to remain in contact as they get older.

What's EOC? It's been driving me crazy for a couple days now.

I believe it's Economic Outpatient Care.

Goldielocks

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4973 on: October 27, 2018, 02:40:26 PM »
"Economic Outpatient Care"

A term from the book "Millionaire Next Door" by Thomas Stanley.
He has an entire chapter on this topic, alone, and this chapter is by far the best in a book that I found life-changing ideas in.   

His other key idea for me: "Choose to live in a neighborhood where you are in the top 10% of incomes, and you will never feel pressure to keep up with others' spending, and will feel wealthier and save more money" [ paraphrased]

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4974 on: October 27, 2018, 03:04:58 PM »
"Economic Outpatient Care"

A term from the book "Millionaire Next Door" by Thomas Stanley.
He has an entire chapter on this topic, alone, and this chapter is by far the best in a book that I found life-changing ideas in.   

His other key idea for me: "Choose to live in a neighborhood where you are in the top 10% of incomes, and you will never feel pressure to keep up with others' spending, and will feel wealthier and save more money" [ paraphrased]

Great advice!

Zikoris

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4975 on: October 27, 2018, 06:47:10 PM »
Interesting that DH, their son who never got a penny of EOC from them, does talk to them and makes a point to remain in contact as they get older.

What's EOC? It's been driving me crazy for a couple days now.

Economic Outpatient Care, otherwise known at the adult version of a child's allowance from the parents.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4976 on: October 27, 2018, 10:12:25 PM »
Interesting that DH, their son who never got a penny of EOC from them, does talk to them and makes a point to remain in contact as they get older.

What's EOC? It's been driving me crazy for a couple days now.

Economic Outpatient Care: a concept discussed pretty thoroughly in "The Millionaire Next Door" by Stanley and Danko, which many of the people on this board have read. The book itself has many flaws, however it had several key insights about the impact frugality and investment have on a person's net worth especially later in life. One of the things Stanley and Danko identified as being detrimental to wealth accumulation is receiving significant amounts of financial aid from others. Parents in particular provide EOC to struggling children to "help" them but end up weakening them instead and teaching them to mooch.

Jouer

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4977 on: October 28, 2018, 09:27:53 PM »
Neither of us spends more than 100 without agreeing.
Same.
I just had to negotiate with my wife for a $300 guys' ski weekend because we don't usually pay that much for accommodations. The guys I am going with want a pimped out chalet, which is not my style, but I want to spend time with them so I sucked it up. They don't understand why I had to think about it.

Mrs.Piano

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4978 on: October 29, 2018, 03:19:22 AM »
DH is somewhat bitter about it.  As much as I try to point out that he was able to make it on his own (and should be proud of that) plus he's better off as a mustachian for it, he's still miffed that his parents favored his sister.  It not because of the money but the inequality. It says to him that he is less important and he's never forgotten that.  It doesn't help that my in laws stupidly made comparisons to his sister's husband who was making more money while DH was young, getting his start on his career and wasn't making as much.  And then finding out during that same time that his parents were supporting SIL with EOC, on top of the money her husband brought in.  They were pretty unkind about that at times so personally I think they are pretty fortunate that their son is even talking to them.

Please tell DH that I understand. All of the EOC to my sister over the years and now my mom asks *me* for money every month.  I send her $100/month but my sister who LIVES with her pays nothing in rent or utilities. It is not at all that I need the money but sometimes the unequal treatment is painful and hard to take.

charis

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4979 on: October 29, 2018, 10:22:23 AM »
DH is somewhat bitter about it.  As much as I try to point out that he was able to make it on his own (and should be proud of that) plus he's better off as a mustachian for it, he's still miffed that his parents favored his sister.  It not because of the money but the inequality. It says to him that he is less important and he's never forgotten that.  It doesn't help that my in laws stupidly made comparisons to his sister's husband who was making more money while DH was young, getting his start on his career and wasn't making as much.  And then finding out during that same time that his parents were supporting SIL with EOC, on top of the money her husband brought in.  They were pretty unkind about that at times so personally I think they are pretty fortunate that their son is even talking to them.

Please tell DH that I understand. All of the EOC to my sister over the years and now my mom asks *me* for money every month.  I send her $100/month but my sister who LIVES with her pays nothing in rent or utilities. It is not at all that I need the money but sometimes the unequal treatment is painful and hard to take.

This is the concern, I imagine, for many in that situation, whether it's $100 or much more.  If the relationship was otherwise good, I would not be too upset with the parents (beyond a mild frustration that they don't see it) because it's their money and no one else is entitled to it.  But I'd be furious at the (able-bodied) sibling for taking the money.  It's like taking money indirectly out of your pocket!

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4980 on: October 29, 2018, 11:18:55 AM »
DH is somewhat bitter about it.  As much as I try to point out that he was able to make it on his own (and should be proud of that) plus he's better off as a mustachian for it, he's still miffed that his parents favored his sister.  It not because of the money but the inequality. It says to him that he is less important and he's never forgotten that.  It doesn't help that my in laws stupidly made comparisons to his sister's husband who was making more money while DH was young, getting his start on his career and wasn't making as much.  And then finding out during that same time that his parents were supporting SIL with EOC, on top of the money her husband brought in.  They were pretty unkind about that at times so personally I think they are pretty fortunate that their son is even talking to them.

Please tell DH that I understand. All of the EOC to my sister over the years and now my mom asks *me* for money every month.  I send her $100/month but my sister who LIVES with her pays nothing in rent or utilities. It is not at all that I need the money but sometimes the unequal treatment is painful and hard to take.

One of my pet peeves is when someone takes to me in order to give to someone else... I call them "redistributors" and it's especially annoying when the recipients of their largesse are fully capable of handling their own expenses or who are living at a higher standard of living than me. I have a few such individuals in my family and I've had to really limit contact with them.

It's hard to deal with a redistributor for three reasons. First, their ability to consume is infinite. They're not limited by time, space, or opportunity because they can and do hand resources out to anyone who crosses their path. Now, the human ability to produce resources such as money, material assets, and other forms of wealth is finite simply because there are only 24 hours in a day and 7 days in a week. The same goes for his or her ability to consume. The ultra-rich, or the FIRE, discover that there's a level of consumption beyond which they cannot easily spend. Even if they do not use their own time or labor to generate wealth anymore, there are still only 24 hours in a day. So, there are only so many meals that can be eaten, only so many trips that can be taken, and only so many garments that can be worn. It makes little sense to own stuff you can't or don't use, so ultimately there's an upper limit to human consumption. That, of course, cannot be said of a redistributor because his or her ability to consume resources isn't limited by time and space, because he or she makes use of other people's time in a perverse kind of reverse delegation. There's the giver (you) whose role is to generate resources and give to the redistributor. There's the redistributor, who turns around and redistributes whatever he or she is given and then returns to the giver with his or her hand out, saying "I need. I don't have. Somebody took. Somebody stole. Somebody borrowed and didn't return. This happened. That happened." The story is generally pretty convincing, so the giver bails out the redistributor time and again. This is emotionally hard on the giver, which is the second reason why it's hard to interact with a redistributor.

The third reason it's hard to interact with a redistributor is that, in any community shared between the giver and the redistributor, the giver's name ends up being trashed. Why is this? Well, on the other side of the redistributor is what I call the entourage: a group of people who are either mooching hard off the redistributor or engaging in what they think is a normal interdependent reciprocal relationship, except that the resources the redistributor uses to maintain the relationship don't come from the redistributor but from the giver. This is a fact the redistributor conceals. To cultivate his or her relationship with the entourage, and to justify the vulture-like way in which the entourage competes to see who can rip off the biggest piece of flesh, the redistributor makes sure to depict the giver as an extremely wealthy person who doesn't notice or doesn't mind the endless extravagance (when in reality the giver is doing his or her utmost to stop the bleeding) or as an extremely bad person who deserves the financial abuse. When the giver meets the entourage, it's usually unpleasant because the entourage goes into flying monkey mode and rebukes the giver for not giving more, for cruelly mistreating the redistributor, or for turning off the tap. The entourage very seldom actually gets to know the giver-- they don't enjoy the cognitive dissonance that comes from learning that they have been complicit in deliberate financial abuse of the giver, that they've been directing their gratitude to the wrong person, and that the person who deserves their gratitude and friendship is one they've been taught to hate.

A redistributor can spoil things, give them away, allow them to be stolen, waste them, sell them for pennies on the dollar, or otherwise burn through resources with superhuman abandon. It's because even though their time isn't generally impinged upon by the exigencies of a full-time job or other resource-generating work, they aren't using just their time to consume the giver's resources. They're using their time, their relatives' time, their friends' time, and on and on. If you have to support a redistributor, you find out pretty quickly that you're not just supporting them. You're supporting them, plus a needy entourage.

The individuals in the entourage can be a mixed bag. Some are completely dependent on the redistributor because they're feeding an addiction or some other financial rabbit hole. Others are relatively normal people who think that they and the redistributor have a normal reciprocating relationship in which they take turns borrowing clothing, paying for lunch, and buying each other treats or gifts. They are generally unaware that the money the redistributor spends on them has been gouged out of somebody else, or that the gifts they receive or are loaned put the redistributor in a bind so that the redistributor has "no choice" except to come back to the giver and ask for more. A few are deliberately using the redistributor to gain access to the giver's resources. They know the giver "has money" or "has a good job", and they know the giver has been willing to share resources with the redistributor in the past, so they pressure the redistributor to "get money out of" the giver for the entourage's use. They also pressure the redistributor to allow them access to the giver's other resources such as a home, a vehicle, or personal effects. The redistributor consistently caves to the pressure, but knows from experience that the giver cannot or will not subsidize the member of the entourage. So, the redistributor gives his or her own resources, and ends up short, creating distress or even an emergency so that the giver has no choice but to step in and relieve the redistributor's distress. Then the cycle begins again.

Most of the time, the redistributor's gifts to the entourage are outside the giver's view. The giver often does not have a relationship, and definitely does not have a reciprocating give-and-receive exchange, with the members of the entourage. This does two things. First, it's the reciprocator who gets credit from the gift and who builds social capital. When someone in the entourage reciprocates, the gift, treat, or debt repayment is made to the redistributor, not to the giver. The giver doesn't get any return whatsoever on his or her investment and is frequently cut out of the society created by the redistributor and the entourage. The redistributor and the entourage can have a very good time on the giver's dime, and a very good time when someone in the entourage has something to share, but guess who never gets invited to the party? The giver. This is part of the redistributor's game. By making sure that the giver "can't come" (more frequently, the invitation is not passed on), the redistributor makes sure he or she can play the giver and the entourage off against each other. He or she exaggerates the extent to which people in the entourage steal, borrow, or otherwise deprive him or her of assets, and conceals the extent to which the redistributor initiates the transaction. This lets him or her get more out of the giver. Meanwhile, he or she conceals the giver's role in the support provided to the entourage. This stimulates reciprocity in members of the entourage that are inclined to it, but the reciprocity only extends as far as the redistributor.

From a giver's perspective, being used that way is a form of financial and social abuse. It sucks monkey balls.

Mrs.Piano

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4981 on: October 29, 2018, 11:34:34 AM »
I am not upset about the money I am not getting, but it is a bit annoying that my Mom is actually asking me to subsidize the whole thing. Mr. Piano and I have agreed to live on a budget and I feel squeezed by what I am giving monthly, even though it is a small amount of our net worth. I would feel more inclined if my sister was not living there for free.

saguaro

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4982 on: October 29, 2018, 12:33:14 PM »
DH is somewhat bitter about it.  As much as I try to point out that he was able to make it on his own (and should be proud of that) plus he's better off as a mustachian for it, he's still miffed that his parents favored his sister.  It not because of the money but the inequality. It says to him that he is less important and he's never forgotten that.  It doesn't help that my in laws stupidly made comparisons to his sister's husband who was making more money while DH was young, getting his start on his career and wasn't making as much.  And then finding out during that same time that his parents were supporting SIL with EOC, on top of the money her husband brought in.  They were pretty unkind about that at times so personally I think they are pretty fortunate that their son is even talking to them.

Please tell DH that I understand. All of the EOC to my sister over the years and now my mom asks *me* for money every month.  I send her $100/month but my sister who LIVES with her pays nothing in rent or utilities. It is not at all that I need the money but sometimes the unequal treatment is painful and hard to take.

@Mrs.Piano, thanks.    I will pass on your comments to DH.   At this point, his parents are not in any need of money, they seem to have enough to pay their bills and part of not giving to SIL (or her daughter) is to make sure they have enough funds to subsidize any care they may need.   So at least they may have turned off the money spigot in time.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 03:56:50 PM by saguaro »

slugline

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4983 on: October 29, 2018, 01:15:07 PM »
Interesting that DH, their son who never got a penny of EOC from them, does talk to them and makes a point to remain in contact as they get older.

What's EOC? It's been driving me crazy for a couple days now.

"Economic Outpatient Care" -- a phrase coined in the book The Millionaire Next Door.

charis

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4984 on: October 29, 2018, 01:18:44 PM »
I am not upset about the money I am not getting, but it is a bit annoying that my Mom is actually asking me to subsidize the whole thing. Mr. Piano and I have agreed to live on a budget and I feel squeezed by what I am giving monthly, even though it is a small amount of our net worth. I would feel more inclined if my sister was not living there for free.

That's what I was trying to say, but TGS said better - not suggesting anyone here would be upset about not getting handouts.  I am wondering why you continue to let your sister take advantage of you (through your mom).  Can you not end this by telling her that you can no longer afford the monthly payments and suggest that your sister start contributing?

If my parent asked me for money while supporting my (able bodied/minded) brother, there's no way I would agree to that.  My financial goals (paying down mortgage/student loans, funding my child's 529 account, saving for retirement, etc.) are just as valid as anyone else's.  And certainly trump the sibling's goal of not paying rent.

SunnyDays

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4985 on: October 29, 2018, 02:33:58 PM »
Brilliant post, GrimSqueaker!  I've never thought about it all exactly like that.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4986 on: October 29, 2018, 02:46:47 PM »
TGS, you rock.

Sugaree

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4987 on: October 30, 2018, 09:33:17 AM »
That would be my husband's brother and his wife.  They got married in a wedding that had to have cost $100k+ by the time it was all said and done.  I know her dress was from the current season's collection and retailed for $5000 though she claimed to have gotten it at a trunk show for $1800.  They were both grad students at the time, so financing of this blessed event fell on her family (I have no idea how they pulled that one out of their ass, TBH) and MIL/FIL.  The wedding was followed almost exactly 9 months later by baby.  They move to fourth tier city so that BIL can start his PhD program, paid for by MIL/FIL of course, and live off of the proceeds from the sale of GFIL's house, which BIL was sole inheritor of (there's a bit of an inheritance drama story there, but that's not really relevant to this narrative).  They blew through that money in about 3 years, so they weren't living totally extravagantly (except for that pesky Whole Foods habit), but they weren't working either.  She finishes her PhD in what can only be described as a very, very specialized concentration within a humanities field and discovers that academia is not exactly a path to stability these days.  In fact, there are only about 50 programs in the entire US that have her program.  She finally finds a non tenure-track job.  In Europe.  Which is going to require a $50k "advance" on BIL's inheritance.  But they have to push the move back a few months because she's pregnant again.  Kid #2 is born and they move a few weeks later.  However, they've now moved to one of the more expensive cities in Europe and just can't live in a bad part of town so they talk to some of her relatives and find a place to rent for way under market value.  She works.  He keeps the kids and works on his dissertation (they briefly looked for someone to do a nanny share with them so that he would have time to work).  The relative either decides to move back into the condo or decides that  they need to get at least fair market value for it, so they move to another place in the same general area.  It's still one of the less expensive places, but it's now close to 100% of her salary.  From what I can tell, MIL/FIL were actually paying BIL more in EOC each month than she was making working.  But wait.  This apartment has...some "problems".  After several complaints to their landlord, she took them up on their offer to find somewhere else to live.  They finally acquiesced and found a place outside the city.  Sometime in all this, BIL adequately defends his dissertation by the skin of his teeth.  SIL is over a year into a 2 year fellowship.  Nine months before they fellowship ends she finds out she's pregnant.  This was planned.  It's twins.  This was unplanned.  So fast forward a few months and the twins are born.  Neither one of them are working any significant amount, and MIL/FIL give them the ultimatum that they have 6 months of EOC left if they choose to remain in Europe.  So, at the 6 month mark they move back to the states (and take another $30k "advance" to do so).  Now that they are back in the states they are staying for free in a house that her family somehow procured.  I think they might be "housesitting" long-term.  They, and by they I mean MIL/FIL, have bought a car because no public transportation.  SIL did find a job.  It's not in her exact field, and is likely to be detrimental to getting a job in her field, but it pays the bills.  BIL works third shift, 10 hours a week. It's a job that's technically in his field, but is something that could be done with a BA instead of a PhD.  He seems to spend most of his days driving the kids around watching sea planes take off.

ysette9

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4988 on: October 30, 2018, 11:18:31 AM »
What an astounding story. Good counterpoint to my assumption that PhDs have some brains.

ysette9

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4989 on: October 30, 2018, 11:18:00 AM »
What an astounding story. Good counterpoint to my assumption that PhDs have some brains.

Sugaree

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4990 on: October 30, 2018, 11:45:09 AM »
I suspect that they've figured out that MIL/FIL won't let the kids suffer any more than they have to. 


Oh...I just thought of another good one.  DH was talking to BIL the other day and BIL was expounding on how great food stamps were and that we should get on them.  LOL.  Between the two of us, we're going to pull in just over $100k before taxes this year.  I'm not sure if it's because he's that out of touch or if MIL has been in his ear about how much we're struggling too (can't make the golden child feel bad about himself).

Mrs.Piano

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4991 on: October 30, 2018, 03:54:19 PM »
I am not upset about the money I am not getting, but it is a bit annoying that my Mom is actually asking me to subsidize the whole thing. Mr. Piano and I have agreed to live on a budget and I feel squeezed by what I am giving monthly, even though it is a small amount of our net worth. I would feel more inclined if my sister was not living there for free.

That's what I was trying to say, but TGS said better - not suggesting anyone here would be upset about not getting handouts.  I am wondering why you continue to let your sister take advantage of you (through your mom).  Can you not end this by telling her that you can no longer afford the monthly payments and suggest that your sister start contributing?

If my parent asked me for money while supporting my (able bodied/minded) brother, there's no way I would agree to that.  My financial goals (paying down mortgage/student loans, funding my child's 529 account, saving for retirement, etc.) are just as valid as anyone else's.  And certainly trump the sibling's goal of not paying rent.

Youíre right. I will put Mom on notice that I will only be giving her 9 more months of cash. This will give her time to re-adjust by selling her house or doing something else. Thank you.

Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4992 on: October 30, 2018, 07:09:59 PM »
My dad: finally, for the first time in years, showing some financial sense. Kinda.
My mom: disabled, but on a really good disability insurance payment. Their retirement savings: bad for my nerves, in summary.

My brother: early 20s, student, fully subsidized by my parents, living with his girlfriend. SIL: sensible, together, good with money. Convinces him to get a job (partially to take the load off my parents, partially because she gets annoyed watching him play video games while she works 20+ hours a week to cover her share of expenses). Brother is convinced. Starts applying for jobs. Tells my mother.

She convinces him to not get a job because they'll keep paying for everything while he's in school.

???????

(Also JFC where was that level of help when I was a student? And graduated on time? And was on a set stipend that left me with 40$ for groceries on a good week??)

Sibley

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4993 on: November 02, 2018, 10:31:02 AM »
My dad: finally, for the first time in years, showing some financial sense. Kinda.
My mom: disabled, but on a really good disability insurance payment. Their retirement savings: bad for my nerves, in summary.

My brother: early 20s, student, fully subsidized by my parents, living with his girlfriend. SIL: sensible, together, good with money. Convinces him to get a job (partially to take the load off my parents, partially because she gets annoyed watching him play video games while she works 20+ hours a week to cover her share of expenses). Brother is convinced. Starts applying for jobs. Tells my mother.

She convinces him to not get a job because they'll keep paying for everything while he's in school.

???????

(Also JFC where was that level of help when I was a student? And graduated on time? And was on a set stipend that left me with 40$ for groceries on a good week??)

Your brother is SCREWED later in life. Because when the bank of mom & dad closes, and it will close, he is going to be in trouble. The longer that goes on, the worse it's going to get.

Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4994 on: November 02, 2018, 07:07:26 PM »
My dad: finally, for the first time in years, showing some financial sense. Kinda.
My mom: disabled, but on a really good disability insurance payment. Their retirement savings: bad for my nerves, in summary.

My brother: early 20s, student, fully subsidized by my parents, living with his girlfriend. SIL: sensible, together, good with money. Convinces him to get a job (partially to take the load off my parents, partially because she gets annoyed watching him play video games while she works 20+ hours a week to cover her share of expenses). Brother is convinced. Starts applying for jobs. Tells my mother.

She convinces him to not get a job because they'll keep paying for everything while he's in school.

???????

(Also JFC where was that level of help when I was a student? And graduated on time? And was on a set stipend that left me with 40$ for groceries on a good week??)

Your brother is SCREWED later in life. Because when the bank of mom & dad closes, and it will close, he is going to be in trouble. The longer that goes on, the worse it's going to get.

Yep.

Just ain't much I can do about it.

MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4995 on: November 06, 2018, 11:59:19 AM »
My dad: finally, for the first time in years, showing some financial sense. Kinda.
My mom: disabled, but on a really good disability insurance payment. Their retirement savings: bad for my nerves, in summary.

My brother: early 20s, student, fully subsidized by my parents, living with his girlfriend. SIL: sensible, together, good with money. Convinces him to get a job (partially to take the load off my parents, partially because she gets annoyed watching him play video games while she works 20+ hours a week to cover her share of expenses). Brother is convinced. Starts applying for jobs. Tells my mother.

She convinces him to not get a job because they'll keep paying for everything while he's in school.

???????

(Also JFC where was that level of help when I was a student? And graduated on time? And was on a set stipend that left me with 40$ for groceries on a good week??)

Your brother is SCREWED later in life. Because when the bank of mom & dad closes, and it will close, he is going to be in trouble. The longer that goes on, the worse it's going to get.

Yep.

Just ain't much I can do about it.

It may be worthwhile to make it clear to your brother that you aren't going to be a piggybank for him and that it will be far better to get his life together now. I would recommend that he get a job and not tell his mother, and just invest that money in his rainy day fund. That likely isn't going to happen based on your description of him, but it would be nice to dream.

Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4996 on: November 07, 2018, 06:18:28 AM »
My dad: finally, for the first time in years, showing some financial sense. Kinda.
My mom: disabled, but on a really good disability insurance payment. Their retirement savings: bad for my nerves, in summary.

My brother: early 20s, student, fully subsidized by my parents, living with his girlfriend. SIL: sensible, together, good with money. Convinces him to get a job (partially to take the load off my parents, partially because she gets annoyed watching him play video games while she works 20+ hours a week to cover her share of expenses). Brother is convinced. Starts applying for jobs. Tells my mother.

She convinces him to not get a job because they'll keep paying for everything while he's in school.

???????

(Also JFC where was that level of help when I was a student? And graduated on time? And was on a set stipend that left me with 40$ for groceries on a good week??)

Your brother is SCREWED later in life. Because when the bank of mom & dad closes, and it will close, he is going to be in trouble. The longer that goes on, the worse it's going to get.

Yep.

Just ain't much I can do about it.

It may be worthwhile to make it clear to your brother that you aren't going to be a piggybank for him and that it will be far better to get his life together now. I would recommend that he get a job and not tell his mother, and just invest that money in his rainy day fund. That likely isn't going to happen based on your description of him, but it would be nice to dream.

Knowing my brother? He wouldn't ask for a handout. But he totally would be incapable of planning ahead and managing his money, and, unless his girlfriend takes over the full management of joint finances (... which I suppose is traditional, in my family), he's likely to find himself declaring bankruptcy before age 40.

I do the financial education I can, and it seems to be REALLY sticking with the girlfriend and he's kind of open to it, so... we'll see.  He has very little incentive to manage his grocery money when going over by 100$ is ok, y'know? Why bother?

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4997 on: November 07, 2018, 03:18:42 PM »
(Also JFC where was that level of help when I was a student? And graduated on time? And was on a set stipend that left me with 40$ for groceries on a good week??)

EXACTLY! (vaguely similar situation once upon a time)

EricEng

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4998 on: November 07, 2018, 04:18:29 PM »
Brother is convinced. Starts applying for jobs. Tells my mother.

She convinces him to not get a job because they'll keep paying for everything while he's in school.

??????
This seems reasonable for me.  His job is to finish school asap and learn everything he can so he can start a real job making good money.  Spending 20-30 hours a week earning min wage just risks wasting money on classes that are flunked or not learning what he could of given time and focus.

It's same reason I discourage working during high school (assuming conditions permit).  Spend that extra time in high school for instance taking advanced college courses.  That said, a short summer job flipping burgers will teach you the value of money and provided me lots of motivation in college when I considered the alternative to finishing my report/projects.

This assumes he isn't being wasteful or excessive in his expenses in college.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4999 on: November 07, 2018, 04:34:51 PM »
Brother is convinced. Starts applying for jobs. Tells my mother.

She convinces him to not get a job because they'll keep paying for everything while he's in school.

??????
This seems reasonable for me.  His job is to finish school asap and learn everything he can so he can start a real job making good money.  Spending 20-30 hours a week earning min wage just risks wasting money on classes that are flunked or not learning what he could of given time and focus.

It's same reason I discourage working during high school (assuming conditions permit).  Spend that extra time in high school for instance taking advanced college courses.  That said, a short summer job flipping burgers will teach you the value of money and provided me lots of motivation in college when I considered the alternative to finishing my report/projects.

This assumes he isn't being wasteful or excessive in his expenses in college.

It also assumes that he's actually putting in significant effort in these classes. There are people who don't, unless they personally have skin in the game. Much depends on the maturity of the student. For every focused individual such as yourself there is someone at the opposite end of the motivation spectrum who is skating by and having a good time courtesy of the Bank of Parent, stretching "school" out for as many months or years as possible and making no coherent progress toward graduation with a grade-point average high enough to be competitive with employers or advanced programs.