Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 1578263 times)

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4700 on: July 23, 2018, 12:10:00 PM »
Good gosh. This forum always redefines "real problems". Hope life is being nicer to you these days.

mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4701 on: July 23, 2018, 12:55:27 PM »
Our reputation in the family recently switched from poor to "frugal" when they figured out we make a good income x2 but spend a fraction of it (appearances). We were volun-told that we'd be hosting the elders in their old age b/c the rest of the family isn't settled or prosperous enough. Ahhh, yeah. More discussion is necessary...
My dad always volun-told me that I would be supporting him in his old age, and giving him a job running the office of my vet clinic (I applied, didn't get in, and now mainly thank my lucky stars for that because that is some crazy debt for an over saturated field...). I was always like, haha, good joke... as this was in high school and college, but he always had a serious note to it...

Then I found out that when my parents took out PLUS loans when I went to college, he took the max amount every year (only needed maybe half) and he told me I owed him the $100k in PLUS loans, though he couldn't show where the other $50k he didn't need to take out went.

I think I dodged a major bullet not getting into vet school...
Wow, you guys make me feel lucky, in some ways.  Both my parents are gone (my dad was super cheap, managed to save $15k in 23 years living on a very small amount of Social Security, well under $1000 a month).  My stepfather was frugal and has plenty of money.  My MIL is doing just fine with her SS and her house, and my FIL has a girlfriend who can bankroll him.

FireHiker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4702 on: July 23, 2018, 12:58:35 PM »
I am working on a clear set of rules that she has to follow before we'll give her money. It will include complete transparency in her finances and total accountability to us for what she's spending. Her pride will never let her be able to do it, so my hope is that by having firm boundaries, we can always place the blame squarely on her for being unwilling to meet our rules. And even then the only help we would probably be willing to give is to buy her house. That way we would be responsible for the mortgage, property taxes, and insurance, as well as any necessary repairs, so that she'll always have a roof over her head, but we'll also have equity to show for it in the end.

Although the specific details differ, your mom and my mom have some similarities. The "good" news for me is that I made it clear any help from me would require transparency and accountability and, so far, that seems to have worked. I hope the same is true for you. I will be honest, it is a constant source of stress in the back of my head, wondering what happens when she's mooched off her sister past the point of sustainability (the current "plan"). Fortunately she is very intimidated by the normalcy and financial stability of my husband's family and there is no way she'll ask me for anything. I think. I have two siblings she's helped out in various ways over the years, so I assume she would go to them first, but who knows. With three kids of my own, my priority lies with providing them with a stable foundation and ensuring my husband and I will never be a financial burden to them. Good luck to you with your mom, and always feel free to vent here. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people here who get it...

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4703 on: July 23, 2018, 01:09:02 PM »
Realistically we'll buy a duplex if we end up "hosting" any elders long term. Rent to the relative in one side, rent out the other side. Just more reminders that DW and I want to be debt free in our old age. Not buying new mortgages and new car payment books late in life. 

redbird

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4704 on: July 23, 2018, 02:08:13 PM »
Ugh. Lanthiriel's story about their mom reminds me of DH's sister.

SIL is in her mid 30's, a single mom with 2 kids, and insists on running her own jewelry-making business that makes her below minimum wage. She has a bachelor's in business (paid for 100% by the in-laws, she never had student loans) and should be able to do pretty well with this job... but she barely markets her business. She seriously could make more money by going to work at Target or the grocery store or Home Depot or McDonalds's (yes, these places and more are hiring locally). The only reason she survives is 1) MIL (who is awesome at finances) is her free accountant/tax preparer and 2) MIL/FIL not only pay 100% of the mortgage on the nice house they bought for her, but support her in many other ways financially. MIL and FIL are retired, have no debts, and have the money to afford to pay for this but it just boggles my mind, especially because it feels like it has to be negatively affecting their enjoyment of their retirement. Like SIL will constantly call FIL over to paint her walls because the littlest one colored on them again, or she'll ask MIL to take the older one to his sports games all the time because she doesn't feel like it.

MIL and FIL are lovely, wonderful people and super intelligent. They just really, really love their 2 children and don't want to let them fail or struggle. It wasn't a problem with DH, who is independent and self-reliant. They paid for his bachelor's too, but once he graduated, he decided to put on his adulting pants and has paid for his own way in life since. But SIL takes advantage of their generosity... and unfortunately, they let her.

I really don't know what SIL is going to do when her enabling parents pass away. DH has flat out said he'd be happy to give her free advice, but he's not paying her a cent. He knows he'll never see it again and she'll just keep coming back for more. She's gotten away with this for all 30-something years of her life, so unless a big change happens (like her parents dying), then I don't think she'll ever stop doing what she's doing.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4705 on: July 23, 2018, 02:40:35 PM »
I'd refrain from offering to give her money under any terms. She's young enough to fix her situation herself - and also young enough to leech off of you long enough to ruin your marriage and finances.

+1 to this. It'll start with an emergency that feels like a one-off and reasonable enough; then the camel's nose is in the tent and it will never end. People who cannot control their own spending have an infinite capacity to spend other people's money.

I thought that a one-off cash injection was going to fix a problem. It really didn't, it just opened the floodgate of requests. I also thought it would support our relationship: I have never been so wrong. Lending and giving money and advice damaged so many relationships (with the in-laws, between me and my husband, with my sister-in-law). It was the worst money we ever spent. My story here.

pachnik

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4706 on: July 23, 2018, 02:55:07 PM »
Ugh. Lanthiriel's story about their mom reminds me of DH's sister.

SIL is in her mid 30's, a single mom with 2 kids, and insists on running her own jewelry-making business that makes her below minimum wage. She has a bachelor's in business (paid for 100% by the in-laws, she never had student loans) and should be able to do pretty well with this job... but she barely markets her business. She seriously could make more money by going to work at Target or the grocery store or Home Depot or McDonalds's (yes, these places and more are hiring locally). The only reason she survives is 1) MIL (who is awesome at finances) is her free accountant/tax preparer and 2) MIL/FIL not only pay 100% of the mortgage on the nice house they bought for her, but support her in many other ways financially. MIL and FIL are retired, have no debts, and have the money to afford to pay for this but it just boggles my mind, especially because it feels like it has to be negatively affecting their enjoyment of their retirement. Like SIL will constantly call FIL over to paint her walls because the littlest one colored on them again, or she'll ask MIL to take the older one to his sports games all the time because she doesn't feel like it.

MIL and FIL are lovely, wonderful people and super intelligent. They just really, really love their 2 children and don't want to let them fail or struggle. It wasn't a problem with DH, who is independent and self-reliant. They paid for his bachelor's too, but once he graduated, he decided to put on his adulting pants and has paid for his own way in life since. But SIL takes advantage of their generosity... and unfortunately, they let her.

I really don't know what SIL is going to do when her enabling parents pass away. DH has flat out said he'd be happy to give her free advice, but he's not paying her a cent. He knows he'll never see it again and she'll just keep coming back for more. She's gotten away with this for all 30-something years of her life, so unless a big change happens (like her parents dying), then I don't think she'll ever stop doing what she's doing.

I have a friend whose sister is an older version of your SIL.  Friend's sister is mid-50's and her parents paid for a house, utilities etc. etc. and sister never worked a day in her life.  Mid-50's with no resume so probably unemployable at this point.  My friend resents her.  All the 'family help' went to one sibling and the other two sibs got very, very little.   

a286

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4707 on: July 23, 2018, 05:52:41 PM »
Our reputation in the family recently switched from poor to "frugal" when they figured out we make a good income x2 but spend a fraction of it (appearances). We were volun-told that we'd be hosting the elders in their old age b/c the rest of the family isn't settled or prosperous enough. Ahhh, yeah. More discussion is necessary...
My dad always volun-told me that I would be supporting him in his old age, and giving him a job running the office of my vet clinic (I applied, didn't get in, and now mainly thank my lucky stars for that because that is some crazy debt for an over saturated field...). I was always like, haha, good joke... as this was in high school and college, but he always had a serious note to it...

Then I found out that when my parents took out PLUS loans when I went to college, he took the max amount every year (only needed maybe half) and he told me I owed him the $100k in PLUS loans, though he couldn't show where the other $50k he didn't need to take out went.

I think I dodged a major bullet not getting into vet school...


Your father sounds like an asshole.
Yup, hes a damn piece of work. I'm just sorry it took 25 years of my to figure it out. He had me completely under his thumb. And he did shit to a lot of people not just me... took money from his in laws, screwed over his siblings, etc.

calimom

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4708 on: July 23, 2018, 08:12:00 PM »
@Lanthiriel thank you for sharing that very personal story about your mom. I know you love her and care about her long term situation, and how it might impact your own savings and early retirement plans. Quite honestly, it should be a sticky on this forum for any woman who thinks being a SAHM forever is a good career plan. Not harassing on SAHMs but there are four possible scenarios that could happen with well-earning husbands. 1) You end up divorced and under skilled in your 40s. 2) Your husband could die (mine did, at age 37, when I was 31. The SAHM thing became a distant memory for me) 3) Your husband could lose their job or become downsized. It happens. 4) Your partner could become disabled by illness or accident.  And then what?

Women (and some men) put themselves in very dangerous economic circumstances when they leave or never paid employment. Yes, it's great to stay home when children are small. OMG daycare! Strangers raising our children!! But putting it quite bluntly, women lose traction. lose pension and SS benefits when they opt out of the workforce. A retirement of poverty or taking handouts from grown children is simply not worth it.

I wish your mom and you and your sisters the best as you navigate what seems to be a very  difficult situation. Your mother is about 10 years away from traditional retirement benefits, here's hoping she makes the most of those years.

kelvin

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4709 on: July 27, 2018, 01:33:32 PM »
Recently started dating. It's been a few months, things are going swimmingly, and we have a fair amount in common regarding finances. (We're both fans of Canadian Couch Potato.)

Which led to the awkward rules regarding my family and talking about money:

1. Do not tell anyone in my family that you have investments + that your TFSA's are maxed out. My family have asked for money from SOs, barely-related inlaws, and casual acquaintances in the past.

2. Do not tell anyone in my family how much you paid for your house. My family are country bumpkins, they think your house is worth about 1/3 of its actual value because it's only 1400 sq ft.

3. My financial priorities going forward include a few strange categories.
-Paying off my debts, which were incurred while following advice from my parents.
-Parents will need assistance when they are elderly. I am willing to provide money, but not facetime. If they resume emotional blackmail + guilt trips, I will stop providing money.
-I have young cousins who are working very, very hard to break the cycle of poverty. I would like to enable them.

It's early enough in the relationship that none of these are dealbreakers yet. I wasn't going to let them sit, then surprise someone after we'd already become common-law.

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4710 on: July 27, 2018, 02:46:56 PM »
I think it is fine to ask if they want financial advice but if they don’t I would leave it alone. If they have hinted about needing money in the future I would make it clear that it won’t happen.

Lanthiriel

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4711 on: July 27, 2018, 03:03:20 PM »
@Step37, thank you for recommending PlayingwithFire's journal. It inspired me to move my rant to my old journal so that I don't overtake this thread.

@calimom, re: being a SAH parent. It is a terrifying risk. One that I staunchly refused to take in large part because of my mother's experience. I love my husband and we've been together 12 years, but for many many many reasons, I would never want to have to trust him with my entire well being.

You all have been very helpful in wrapping my mind around talking to my mom when she's here next week. It kind of feels like not my business, but also that it could become my business very quickly. I am naturally VERY blunt and upfront, but with my mother that leads to an immediate breakdown. Wish me luck.   

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4712 on: July 28, 2018, 07:27:21 AM »
@Lanthiriel thank you for sharing that very personal story about your mom. I know you love her and care about her long term situation, and how it might impact your own savings and early retirement plans. Quite honestly, it should be a sticky on this forum for any woman who thinks being a SAHM forever is a good career plan. Not harassing on SAHMs but there are four possible scenarios that could happen with well-earning husbands. 1) You end up divorced and under skilled in your 40s. 2) Your husband could die (mine did, at age 37, when I was 31. The SAHM thing became a distant memory for me) 3) Your husband could lose their job or become downsized. It happens. 4) Your partner could become disabled by illness or accident.  And then what?

Women (and some men) put themselves in very dangerous economic circumstances when they leave or never paid employment. Yes, it's great to stay home when children are small. OMG daycare! Strangers raising our children!! But putting it quite bluntly, women lose traction. lose pension and SS benefits when they opt out of the workforce. A retirement of poverty or taking handouts from grown children is simply not worth it.


This is so true.   I had a paying job my whole married life.  When I left Ex, some friends commented that if they wanted to leave their husbands (they didn't, but they were thinking "what if") they couldn't because they had no outside income and no pension.

Reminds me of the old saying "A woman is one man away from poverty"

sapphail

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4713 on: July 28, 2018, 09:13:41 PM »
This is so true.   I had a paying job my whole married life.  When I left Ex, some friends commented that if they wanted to leave their husbands (they didn't, but they were thinking "what if") they couldn't because they had no outside income and no pension.

Reminds me of the old saying "A woman is one man away from poverty"

This is so true. After seeing my mother (who my violent prick of a father would not allow to work or drive, so she couldn't leave him), and many other women of her generation, be left destitute after their husbands ran out on them , I can't comprehend anyone still wanting to put themselves in such a vulnerable position. Even if he's a good and decent guy, what happens if he gets hit by a truck tomorrow? A life insurance payout might be enough to cover what's left of the mortgage, but you've still then got every other expense to worry about, especially if you've got kids. Bugger that.

abpa

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4714 on: July 30, 2018, 08:29:50 AM »
My brother and his wife were subsidized by my father for their entire marriage until my father died. My brother's wife has not worked for money ever.  One of their children was profoundly disabled but died about 6 months after our father (it was a really bad year).  However, that was 8 years ago.  My brother has primarily worked at minimum wage jobs and is clueless about money.  At that time I was making about $100k/yr so he decided that I would become the new enabler.  That worked for a few years (honestly, I didn't mind helping out every once in a while).  They sold their mortgage free home, which they had purchased with the life insurance policy and purchased a homestead in southern Colorado and my brother got a job at a feed store, his wife stayed home with the kids (who were in high school at this time).  I started getting phone calls about not having enough money to buy food.  Finally, I suggested (as gently as I could) that if they can't afford to put food on the table, perhaps his wife should consider getting a job. 

It was as if I had suggested that they filet and bbq the children.  A week or so later, my brother began sending me a series of nasty (full of the "c" word and other abusive language) text messages, saying that I owed his wife an apology.  His wife called me "a dictator" (I don't think it means what she thinks it means).  Because of all this, my relationship with my brother is seriously damaged.

And he's never paid back a single loan.

Don't loan money to family if there is a pattern of poor money management.

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4715 on: July 30, 2018, 08:54:45 AM »
re: abpa

I thought that homesteads typically grew food crops...

As has been said around here "No." is a complete sentence. 

abpa

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4716 on: July 30, 2018, 09:02:09 AM »
I thought that homesteads typically grew food crops...

As has been said around here "No." is a complete sentence.


This incident was the end of the gravy train.  And yeah, a well planned homestead grows food crops.  Homesteads based on hare brained schemes do not.


AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4717 on: July 30, 2018, 01:14:47 PM »
My brother and his wife were subsidized by my father for their entire marriage until my father died. My brother's wife has not worked for money ever.  One of their children was profoundly disabled but died about 6 months after our father (it was a really bad year).  However, that was 8 years ago.  My brother has primarily worked at minimum wage jobs and is clueless about money.  At that time I was making about $100k/yr so he decided that I would become the new enabler.  That worked for a few years (honestly, I didn't mind helping out every once in a while).  They sold their mortgage free home, which they had purchased with the life insurance policy and purchased a homestead in southern Colorado and my brother got a job at a feed store, his wife stayed home with the kids (who were in high school at this time).  I started getting phone calls about not having enough money to buy food.  Finally, I suggested (as gently as I could) that if they can't afford to put food on the table, perhaps his wife should consider getting a job. 

It was as if I had suggested that they filet and bbq the children.  A week or so later, my brother began sending me a series of nasty (full of the "c" word and other abusive language) text messages, saying that I owed his wife an apology.  His wife called me "a dictator" (I don't think it means what she thinks it means).  Because of all this, my relationship with my brother is seriously damaged.

And he's never paid back a single loan.

Don't loan money to family if there is a pattern of poor money management.

On the plus side, there's no more loaning of money after the c word comes out. It's an international rule of finance.

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4718 on: July 31, 2018, 12:19:22 AM »
I trusted my parents to take care of themselves and my kids trust me.  They had a modest pension, SS and savings. My dad died at 73 and my mom lived within her means, traveled , etc . She also prepaid all funeral expenses.   In her late 80’s she no longer wants to travel, lives within her means and would never take a dime from anyone.  When she passed she left no debts and no inheritance.  I am so glad she enjoyed her money.  We never worried because we knew she would adjust to her circumstances without burdening others. 

87tweetybirds

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4719 on: July 31, 2018, 06:03:32 AM »
My in-laws...
At the beginning of our marriage when it became clear to me that they expected him to support them-even though they weren't employed, and aren't too old to be able to be employed- I convinced him that he had to put our family (marriage and children) first, and then could support them with a set amount, but that could not be sending entire pay check to support parents... he continues to do so, sending about $50/ month, with more for birthdays, and other gift giving occasions. I've accepted that this will be how it is until they pass away (MIL is 55, FIL 66, FIL has some health issues, but his mother is still living, MIL is a non-compliant diabetic, who's mother passed from complications from diabetes before she was 60)
My Sister in law is shaping up to take a leaf out of her parents book. She came to visit "us" (really to visit friends she'd made on a previous visit including a boyfriend), and she and boyfriend decided to get married. Knowing this will involve immigration paperwork after the wedding to change her status to a permanent resident, and having investigated how much this would cost (personal experience with the cost of immigration paperwork), we encouraged her to have basically city hall wedding, costing only the paperwork, and then be able to save the rest for the impending immigration costs. Boyfriends family convince them they'll be better off having a post wedding party because the groom's family give good wedding presents, often large amounts of cash.
We said, your choice, here's some $ for a wedding present to put toward the immigration costs. She told DH of others also giving cash presents, to a total of at least $1500.
She's now asking for help with the immigration costs. Says the costs will be about $2000, and they just don't have it (that's about what we figured it would be and told them so before they got married) and they need $800 for a deposit on a different apartment for when their current contract is up (they knew that before they signed the 4 month subletting agreement).
He works 2 jobs, pest control and works as a waiter at an upscale restaurant, and she babysits for some friends while waiting for her work visa. Between the two of them she says they're still unable to save. Is it horrible of me to think, maybe you should have saved like we said you'd need to? Maybe you can't afford to eat out several times a week, and lay off on the vacations, shopping for anything other than food etc.? I'm reluctant to help (she called it a loan, but I'm doubtful we'd ever get it back), fearing we'd become the bank of big brother when they have cash flow problems in the future, especially when I can see that their cash flow issues stem from a lack of budgeting, while trying to keep up with their friends (one of whom is bank rolled by daddy).

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4720 on: July 31, 2018, 07:40:05 AM »
Not really finance but worth a head shake. My retired parents want to host some of the grandkids for the weekend.

They have just returned from the next state over (all day drive one way) to pickup my sibling's kids. We have been invited to send our younger child to their house for a sleep over. We live ~150 miles away but they won't come get our child. Only halfway. ??? Been like this for years. We've even had an episode where they will come as far as ten minutes away but not to our actual house. We live in a nice home and a nice easily accessible neighborhood.

Whatever. Doesn't matter we were planning to go all the way and check on the in-laws who live in the same town. Also we'll be local if the sleep over should go awry and our youngest wants to leave suddenly.

We don't get worked up over this sort of stuff anymore but WTH?

Dave1442397

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4721 on: July 31, 2018, 11:01:03 AM »
I'm reluctant to help (she called it a loan, but I'm doubtful we'd ever get it back), fearing we'd become the bank of big brother when they have cash flow problems in the future, especially when I can see that their cash flow issues stem from a lack of budgeting, while trying to keep up with their friends (one of whom is bank rolled by daddy).

Tell them to go get a real loan from a bank, or Lending Club, etc, and pay it back. I wouldn't even explain why you won't give them money apart from saying something like "It's not possible given our current financial circumstances". They don't need to know that you're saving your money instead of wasting it.

FreshPrincess

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4722 on: August 01, 2018, 06:37:48 AM »
Conversation with my sister:

Me: I feel so relieved that dad finally got a job that pays 55k/yr.  That's about what FreshPrince makes and if we had to, we could continue living in this house on his salary alone with a few life modifications.
Sister: I hate you.  I make more than that and we couldn't live off my salary alone in our house.
Me: well, we certainly wouldn't be saving as much and i'd have to give up some of my luxuries... but we could make it work.
Sister: I still hate you.  You don't have kids.  Kids and student loans make me poor.

Narrator: But it wasn't the kids and the student loans making her poor.  It was the country club membership, leased SUV, golf trips and Nordstrom habit...

jinga nation

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4723 on: August 01, 2018, 09:37:47 AM »
Conversation with my sister:

Me: I feel so relieved that dad finally got a job that pays 55k/yr.  That's about what FreshPrince makes and if we had to, we could continue living in this house on his salary alone with a few life modifications.
Sister: I hate you.  I make more than that and we couldn't live off my salary alone in our house.
Me: well, we certainly wouldn't be saving as much and i'd have to give up some of my luxuries... but we could make it work.
Sister: I still hate you.  You don't have kids.  Kids and student loans make me poor.

Narrator: But it wasn't the kids and the student loans making her poor.  It was the country club membership, leased SUV, golf trips and Nordstrom habit...

Don't you call out your sister for her financial stupidity? Or do you think she'll read your mind?

My brother and I call each other out for stupid spending. Recently I bought the NES Classic Edition and my brother called me an idiot. Although he has a valid justification to have a smartwatch, I still call him an idiot. That's how we have each other's backs.

Facepunches begin at home.

FreshPrincess

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4724 on: August 01, 2018, 09:51:41 AM »
Don't you worry - she knows how I feel.  We had a long talk when she went on maternity leave and they were struggling and pulling from savings because her paycheck was cut to 70% or so...

The frustrating part is that she and her husband make a combined total of about $50k/yr more than FreshPrince and I.  So it's really easy for them to say "... but we can afford it...".

I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make her thirsty. So... her money, her problem.


Conversation with my sister:

Me: I feel so relieved that dad finally got a job that pays 55k/yr.  That's about what FreshPrince makes and if we had to, we could continue living in this house on his salary alone with a few life modifications.
Sister: I hate you.  I make more than that and we couldn't live off my salary alone in our house.
Me: well, we certainly wouldn't be saving as much and i'd have to give up some of my luxuries... but we could make it work.
Sister: I still hate you.  You don't have kids.  Kids and student loans make me poor.

Narrator: But it wasn't the kids and the student loans making her poor.  It was the country club membership, leased SUV, golf trips and Nordstrom habit...

Don't you call out your sister for her financial stupidity? Or do you think she'll read your mind?

My brother and I call each other out for stupid spending. Recently I bought the NES Classic Edition and my brother called me an idiot. Although he has a valid justification to have a smartwatch, I still call him an idiot. That's how we have each other's backs.

Facepunches begin at home.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 11:28:53 AM by FreshPrincess »

K-ice

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4725 on: August 01, 2018, 11:23:13 AM »
This hit home.

Don't you call out your sister for her financial stupidity? Or do you think she'll read your mind?

My brother and I call each other out for stupid spending. Recently I bought the NES Classic Edition and my brother called me an idiot. Although he has a valid justification to have a smartwatch, I still call him an idiot. That's how we have each other's backs.

Facepunches begin at home.

Nope! I don't dare.

It sounds like you have a great sibling relationship.

I could go on and on about the leased vehicles, expensive dinners and wine, expensive hobbies, "once in a lifetime" trips, autographed junk,  parental loans...

But they have no problem making me feel bad for being frugal.

I've gotten over it. (But obviously not enough to not rant here a bit :) )

FireHiker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4726 on: August 01, 2018, 12:33:25 PM »
I trusted my parents to take care of themselves and my kids trust me.  They had a modest pension, SS and savings. My dad died at 73 and my mom lived within her means, traveled , etc . She also prepaid all funeral expenses.   In her late 80’s she no longer wants to travel, lives within her means and would never take a dime from anyone.  When she passed she left no debts and no inheritance.  I am so glad she enjoyed her money.  We never worried because we knew she would adjust to her circumstances without burdening others.

I am so jealous of this. I heard from my mom over the weekend. Background: We do not have a good relationship; I grew up in chaos with poverty and homelessness...that would have been preventable in large part if she hadn't been a spender. She's spent the past ten years not working, mooching off of other people: first her sister, then she spent 5 years "caretaking" a house for a friend (when they suggested she finally pay very marginal, below market, rent, she moved back with her sister), and now she's been back at her sister's for 2.5 years. The house is so gross and unsanitary that I won't visit: original carpet from the 1980's with a stench from years of cat, dog, and bird waste, ugh it's so gross. Anyway, her sister is finally selling the house so my mom is scrambling to find somewhere to live. Again. She hasn't paid rent in ten years and has zero savings to show for it. I used to have access to her bank account and tallied one year that she spent 2/3 of her meager monthly income (social security and a small pension) buying crap on ebay. We are absolutely not in a position to bail her out financially; my oldest goes to college in another year. She has ignored my financial advice and offers of help for years and years. She will NOT be living with us because it would be an absolute disaster. But, ugh, I feel the stress over the whole situation. She should have applied for section 8 housing ten years ago when I suggested it, and I think she finally did a year or two ago. It has a 6-10 year wait list depending on the county...if she had done it ten years ago she would likely be settled somewhere. But, she's never been one to plan ahead, ever, so everything is ALWAYS a crisis. I remember that from utility bills being shut off, cars not being maintained, not having dental care for several years as a child and then getting a root canal at 17 because of it.

Wow, sorry for the rant...guess I needed to get some of that out today.

partgypsy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4727 on: August 01, 2018, 12:53:00 PM »
yes, both my older brother and my sister need to apply to get on that list. i have been suggesting this for years to get on it now; the worst is when you qualify you don't need it. And their answer is, "well you still need an income to qualify, and what if I don't have a job?" (both are living rent free with family members, both currently don't work). Hmm. Don't have an answer for that, other than, get a job, make some kind of income? I get stressed just thinking about their situations, but it's still not a hair on fire situation, even though they completely dependent on someone else for housing and support? and one of them is living with someone who has already stated they are selling their house in a year to move into a small apartment (i.e. no more free housing).

I actually really am grateful for this thread because I see even worse messed up situations than my own family.  And I know when the time comes where I'm expected for provide free housing, it will be very hard to say no, even if the situation was entirely preventable.
The Yes but is really strong with my sister. I suggested that she move from the (expensive suburb) she currently lives and can't afford to a town in NC, and I would let her live with me 2, 3 months rent free to make transition. Her remark was, sorry I don't want to live through the Compton riots." Basically, she is insulting where I live, because, there are more Black people living here? I saw red, and figured, she can just keep helping herself.     

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4728 on: August 01, 2018, 10:54:54 PM »
So sorry to people experiencing their family trying to manipulate them and expecting to be taken care of.  Stay strong and set boundaries.

AMandM

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4729 on: August 02, 2018, 02:55:20 PM »
The Yes but is really strong with my sister. I suggested that she move from the (expensive suburb) she currently lives and can't afford to a town in NC, and I would let her live with me 2, 3 months rent free to make transition. Her remark was, sorry I don't want to live through the Compton riots." Basically, she is insulting where I live, because, there are more Black people living here? I saw red, and figured, she can just keep helping herself.     

Well, okayyyyy then... I guess you want to find and fund your own housing.

So sorry for all of you!

Freedomin5

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4730 on: August 03, 2018, 01:55:56 AM »
Have to vent a bit...

A family member who is terrible with finances and budgeting spent several minutes whinging about the need to hire a tutor for her teenage kid who is flunking out of school and how she can’t afford the expense. We offer to pay for her kid’s tutoring, with the caveat that kid also needs to put in work, otherwise we pull our support. The next day, I see her shopping online for $100 handbags and a $100 Tiffany ID tag for their dog.

Sigh.

We will still pay for kid’s tutoring. No point making the kid suffer for their mom’s stupidity. But if the kid skips or cancels even one session because they’re “too tired” or “doesn’t feel like it” or “doesn’t need it” that day, then we are not paying for any future sessions. We don’t believe in working harder than the actual individual to save the individual.

reeshau

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4731 on: August 03, 2018, 06:39:20 AM »
We don’t believe in working harder than the actual individual to save the individual.
@Freedomin5, I love how you phrased this!

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4732 on: August 03, 2018, 07:28:17 AM »
So self-responsibility may be a dying thing? ;)

(Maybe it never existed?)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 07:32:17 AM by Just Joe »

FIRE@50

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4733 on: August 03, 2018, 08:10:30 AM »
Conversation with my sister:

Me: I feel so relieved that dad finally got a job that pays 55k/yr.  That's about what FreshPrince makes and if we had to, we could continue living in this house on his salary alone with a few life modifications.
Sister: I hate you.  I make more than that and we couldn't live off my salary alone in our house.
Me: well, we certainly wouldn't be saving as much and i'd have to give up some of my luxuries... but we could make it work.
Sister: I still hate you.  You don't have kids.  Kids and student loans make me poor.

Narrator: But it wasn't the kids and the student loans making her poor.  It was the country club membership, leased SUV, golf trips and Nordstrom habit...

Don't you call out your sister for her financial stupidity? Or do you think she'll read your mind?

My brother and I call each other out for stupid spending. Recently I bought the NES Classic Edition and my brother called me an idiot. Although he has a valid justification to have a smartwatch, I still call him an idiot. That's how we have each other's backs.

Facepunches begin at home.
PLEASE run for office with this as your campaign slogan. I don't care what office it is. The hats and t-shirt sales would be off the charts.

Freedomin5

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4734 on: August 03, 2018, 08:55:00 AM »
So self-responsibility may be a dying thing? ;)

(Maybe it never existed?)

@Just Joe  Probably doesn’t exist in the mom, especially when you factor in a history of severe mental illness, long-term emotional abuse as a child and now as an adult by family members, and traumatic brain injury. So a kid growing up in that kind of environment started life holding firmly to the short straw. Never had a chance to learn about responsibility or see it modeled. Kid only experienced the first two (of the three circumstances mentioned), so we are hoping he has enough resilience to graduate high school and leave the chaotic household to get a university degree, which just may allow him to escape the cycle. That’s the only reason we are supporting him — to give him a fighting chance. If I lived in the same country as he does, I’d tutor him myself. But since I don’t, a good chunk of my monthly after-tax income goes toward giving him a fighting chance of having a decent life so that he will end up on the contributing end and not the receiving end of social assistance.

One of my biggest worries is that mom may inadvertently sabotage his efforts. Mom is constantly telling him to “take it easy” and “not over-exert himself” because “emotional health is important” and “growing boys need their sleep” so he should “sleep in until noon”. When he asks her and other family members to stop screaming at each other so he can study, she tells him he has to figure it out for himself and she’s not going to baby him. And then she turns around and calls him irresponsible when he is unable to finish his work. I told mom he needs to meet with his tutor at the library and she insists that he meets the tutor at home because “it’s not convenient in the winter”. Um...1) it’s summer right now, and 2) the library is a 5-minute walk away, as in, my 4-year-old has walked to the library in 5 minutes. Then I suggested he meet at the tutor’s home, who happens to be a neighbor; her excuse is that he might get anxious in an unfamiliar environment. I can’t help the mom; I sure hope the kid has the balls to go for what he wants and develop a thick enough skin to identify and ignore his mom’s ignorant suggestions.

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4735 on: August 03, 2018, 11:22:59 AM »
Have to vent a bit...

A family member who is terrible with finances and budgeting spent several minutes whinging about the need to hire a tutor for her teenage kid who is flunking out of school and how she can’t afford the expense. We offer to pay for her kid’s tutoring, with the caveat that kid also needs to put in work, otherwise we pull our support. The next day, I see her shopping online for $100 handbags and a $100 Tiffany ID tag for their dog.

Sigh.

We will still pay for kid’s tutoring. No point making the kid suffer for their mom’s stupidity. But if the kid skips or cancels even one session because they’re “too tired” or “doesn’t feel like it” or “doesn’t need it” that day, then we are not paying for any future sessions. We don’t believe in working harder than the actual individual to save the individual.

Have you communicated your requirements to the kid directly?  It does not sound like you can count on mom to relay the importance of this.  I would also recommend khan academy, you do have to be self motivated but even as an adult working engineer I found it helpful for going back and reviewing some things. 

Freedomin5

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4736 on: August 03, 2018, 11:51:57 AM »
Have to vent a bit...

A family member who is terrible with finances and budgeting spent several minutes whinging about the need to hire a tutor for her teenage kid who is flunking out of school and how she can’t afford the expense. We offer to pay for her kid’s tutoring, with the caveat that kid also needs to put in work, otherwise we pull our support. The next day, I see her shopping online for $100 handbags and a $100 Tiffany ID tag for their dog.

Sigh.

We will still pay for kid’s tutoring. No point making the kid suffer for their mom’s stupidity. But if the kid skips or cancels even one session because they’re “too tired” or “doesn’t feel like it” or “doesn’t need it” that day, then we are not paying for any future sessions. We don’t believe in working harder than the actual individual to save the individual.

Have you communicated your requirements to the kid directly?  It does not sound like you can count on mom to relay the importance of this.  I would also recommend khan academy, you do have to be self motivated but even as an adult working engineer I found it helpful for going back and reviewing some things.

@AlanStache Yes. It’s been communicated to the mom, the kid, and the tutor individually. Tutor has instructions to update me weekly with the number of hours of tutoring completed and with his progress.

ixtap

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4737 on: August 03, 2018, 03:30:59 PM »

I have a friend whose sister is an older version of your SIL.  Friend's sister is mid-50's and her parents paid for a house, utilities etc. etc. and sister never worked a day in her life.  Mid-50's with no resume so probably unemployable at this point.  My friend resents her.  All the 'family help' went to one sibling and the other two sibs got very, very little.   

It is clear to us that we have less of a relationship with the in laws than their other children in large part because we don't need them. Clearly these are not people we were ever going to be able to have a warm adult relationship with.

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4738 on: August 06, 2018, 08:54:25 AM »
So self-responsibility may be a dying thing? ;)

(Maybe it never existed?)

@Just Joe  Probably doesn’t exist in the mom, especially when you factor in a history of severe mental illness, long-term emotional abuse as a child and now as an adult by family members, and traumatic brain injury. So a kid growing up in that kind of environment started life holding firmly to the short straw. Never had a chance to learn about responsibility or see it modeled. Kid only experienced the first two (of the three circumstances mentioned), so we are hoping he has enough resilience to graduate high school and leave the chaotic household to get a university degree, which just may allow him to escape the cycle. That’s the only reason we are supporting him — to give him a fighting chance. If I lived in the same country as he does, I’d tutor him myself. But since I don’t, a good chunk of my monthly after-tax income goes toward giving him a fighting chance of having a decent life so that he will end up on the contributing end and not the receiving end of social assistance.

One of my biggest worries is that mom may inadvertently sabotage his efforts. Mom is constantly telling him to “take it easy” and “not over-exert himself” because “emotional health is important” and “growing boys need their sleep” so he should “sleep in until noon”. When he asks her and other family members to stop screaming at each other so he can study, she tells him he has to figure it out for himself and she’s not going to baby him. And then she turns around and calls him irresponsible when he is unable to finish his work. I told mom he needs to meet with his tutor at the library and she insists that he meets the tutor at home because “it’s not convenient in the winter”. Um...1) it’s summer right now, and 2) the library is a 5-minute walk away, as in, my 4-year-old has walked to the library in 5 minutes. Then I suggested he meet at the tutor’s home, who happens to be a neighbor; her excuse is that he might get anxious in an unfamiliar environment. I can’t help the mom; I sure hope the kid has the balls to go for what he wants and develop a thick enough skin to identify and ignore his mom’s ignorant suggestions.

The kid is very, very lucky to have you in his life.

jinga nation

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4739 on: August 06, 2018, 09:18:46 AM »
Conversation with my sister:

Me: I feel so relieved that dad finally got a job that pays 55k/yr.  That's about what FreshPrince makes and if we had to, we could continue living in this house on his salary alone with a few life modifications.
Sister: I hate you.  I make more than that and we couldn't live off my salary alone in our house.
Me: well, we certainly wouldn't be saving as much and i'd have to give up some of my luxuries... but we could make it work.
Sister: I still hate you.  You don't have kids.  Kids and student loans make me poor.

Narrator: But it wasn't the kids and the student loans making her poor.  It was the country club membership, leased SUV, golf trips and Nordstrom habit...

Don't you call out your sister for her financial stupidity? Or do you think she'll read your mind?

My brother and I call each other out for stupid spending. Recently I bought the NES Classic Edition and my brother called me an idiot. Although he has a valid justification to have a smartwatch, I still call him an idiot. That's how we have each other's backs.

Facepunches begin at home.
PLEASE run for office with this as your campaign slogan. I don't care what office it is. The hats and t-shirt sales would be off the charts.

I'll never run for public office in this country (USA). That's opening up my private life to media and opponents and all kinds of nasties. Especially when I'm outed as being financially conservative and socially liberal (watch them wrestle with that juxtaposition), and who "profited off people's misfortunes" (I actually used savings to buy foreclousures for cash after the housing crisis).
Side effect: they'll connect the dots from me to MMMForums, and the MMMan himself, which may rain horse manure on us all.
No good deed goes unpunished.
And I don't need money from hats and t-shirt sales. Fuck that consumerism bullshit (no offence to FIRE@50).

ducky19

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4740 on: August 06, 2018, 11:52:33 AM »
I think fiscally conservative and socially liberal describes a lot of folks here - a "live and let live" philosophy, better known as the Libertarian party. If only we could get someone more electable than Gary Johnson on the ticket, I think we'd have a shot at breaking down the two party system that has failed this country utterly. Not trying to derail the thread, apologize in advance if it does!

Rubic

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4741 on: August 06, 2018, 02:33:40 PM »
I think fiscally conservative and socially liberal describes a lot of folks here

Yep.  I've described myself in exactly those words since George W. Bush Bill Clinton was president.

Nicholas Carter

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4742 on: August 07, 2018, 09:05:23 AM »
In February my wife and I got denied for our first mortgage. A decade ago, my mother took out three credit cards in my name, to 'pad my credit score'.
I found out in the meeting with the loan agent that my mother took those cards, maxed out their balances, then quit making payments on them.
By May I had payed off the cards, which took quite a bit of life efficiency and putting off other investments.
In the time since February my mother has asked me for a loan four times.

onlykelsey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4743 on: August 07, 2018, 09:07:15 AM »
In February my wife and I got denied for our first mortgage. A decade ago, my mother took out three credit cards in my name, to 'pad my credit score'.
I found out in the meeting with the loan agent that my mother took those cards, maxed out their balances, then quit making payments on them.
By May I had payed off the cards, which took quite a bit of life efficiency and putting off other investments.
In the time since February my mother has asked me for a loan four times.

Oof.  I had a father like that.  He once threatened to sue teenaged me for money my dead mother (to whom he was not married) left me for college.  I know now that was a toothless threat, but talk about dependent behavior.

Cool Friend

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4744 on: August 07, 2018, 09:08:34 AM »
In February my wife and I got denied for our first mortgage. A decade ago, my mother took out three credit cards in my name, to 'pad my credit score'.
I found out in the meeting with the loan agent that my mother took those cards, maxed out their balances, then quit making payments on them.
By May I had payed off the cards, which took quite a bit of life efficiency and putting off other investments.
In the time since February my mother has asked me for a loan four times.

Jesus, is that even legal?

patchyfacialhair

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4745 on: August 07, 2018, 09:15:19 AM »
In February my wife and I got denied for our first mortgage. A decade ago, my mother took out three credit cards in my name, to 'pad my credit score'.
I found out in the meeting with the loan agent that my mother took those cards, maxed out their balances, then quit making payments on them.
By May I had payed off the cards, which took quite a bit of life efficiency and putting off other investments.
In the time since February my mother has asked me for a loan four times.

So...your mother committed identity theft...and you paid the bills to cover up for her? Wow...


RWD

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4746 on: August 07, 2018, 09:22:55 AM »
In February my wife and I got denied for our first mortgage. A decade ago, my mother took out three credit cards in my name, to 'pad my credit score'.
I found out in the meeting with the loan agent that my mother took those cards, maxed out their balances, then quit making payments on them.
By May I had payed off the cards, which took quite a bit of life efficiency and putting off other investments.
In the time since February my mother has asked me for a loan four times.

Jesus, is that even legal?

No, it is certainly not. It's identity theft, as mentioned by patchyfacialhair. This comes up often on reddit's /r/personalfinance/ section. Some parents just don't care that they throw their children under the bus to get ahead temporarily.

The unfortunate thing is because they are "family" a lot of people are hesitant to report them to the police. Your two options are claim fraud and risk having your family member locked up or eat the cost, live with your crappy credit score, and hope they don't do it again...

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4747 on: August 07, 2018, 09:25:16 AM »
...and go low contact. Never again would I want untrustworthy people - even parents - to get a peek into my financial and professional life.

merula

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4748 on: August 07, 2018, 09:44:25 AM »
In February my wife and I got denied for our first mortgage. A decade ago, my mother took out three credit cards in my name, to 'pad my credit score'.
I found out in the meeting with the loan agent that my mother took those cards, maxed out their balances, then quit making payments on them.
By May I had payed off the cards, which took quite a bit of life efficiency and putting off other investments.
In the time since February my mother has asked me for a loan four times.

That's absolutely terrible. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

There are a group of us on here who do "tradeline sales" in which we add people who want to raise their credit score as authorized users on our credit cards to  temporarily raise their credit scores. This strategy can also work when people you know add you as an authorized user on their cards. If you're still hurting from a credit perspective, PM me and I can talk you through the details; you can potentially save quite a bit in mortgage interest.

marion10

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4749 on: August 07, 2018, 10:57:40 AM »
I had a friend who taught at a private school that was for high achieving low income youth. This was a regular occurence when her seniors turned 18- that a family member (often a parent) would either fraudulently take out credit cards using their information or get them to be a co-signer. Horrible- she tried to warn kids- but they felt they could not go against their family.