Relatives who just don't get it

[Blackeagle]

In the end, my refusal to buy a new car was so upsetting that it caused my entire family to buy new cars. And I still have my Mini Cooper. People be crazy.

That is hilarious.  Also a bit horrifying.

[penguintroopers]

I moved a year ago with my partner from Los Angeles to Small Town, Indiana to FIRE and finally afford a house. My partner chose to go back to L.A. for one year to continue work and add another year to her pension. Ergo, I was alone for the first winter, which was a doozy.

My father, who also lives in Small Town, could not believe I intended to keep my 2005 Mini Cooper when surely a blizzard would come and destroy me in such a car. Since I didn’t have to go to work daily, I was confident I could get to where I needed to go without a big truck despite winter snow since nothing was mandatory. My partner and I would get a second, bigger vehicle once she came home permanently.

My father was so bothered by my refusal to get a new vehicle, he traded in his perfectly good, eight year old Toyota Tundra and bought another showroom floor Tundra for $53,000.

My brother had wanted the old Tundra, but since Dad didn’t sell it to him, he went out and LEASED a Toyota 4Runner (which he doesn’t need because he doesn’t live in snow.)

Brother’s wife decided she didn’t like her two-year old Toyota Highlander and traded that LEASE in for a Toyota Sienna.

Finally, my partner returned home and we got a 4Runner, which we’d been planning all along since her 14 year old Jeep Liberty was past its prime and was two wheel drive. We just gave the Jeep to some California friends with a landscaping business.

In the end, my refusal to buy a new car was so upsetting that it caused my entire family to buy new cars. And I still have my Mini Cooper. People be crazy.

I have heard from an ex-car salesman that the above scenario is a dealer's dream. Just one sale can cause a cascade in a family or a neighborhood where keeping up with the Jones' is the norm. Envy and greed satisfied in the vulture's lot.

What a crazy flurry of new car buying! 

I am not surprised that one sale can cascade in a family.  Here's my version of that.  In 2009, I finally got tired of my VW beetle (a 2000) because the 'check engine' light kept coming on.  That car was a lemon IMO.  Anyway, I went out and bought a new 2009 Honda Civic.  Right after that my dad crashed my parents' Toyota Tercel so they went out and bought a Yaris.   Sometime that year my brother and SIL also bought a Civic sedan.  We all still have those same cars in 2018 and have no intention of starting a new car cascade anytime soon.

Haha, it totally does. Hubby and I bought a new-to-us car 10 months ago that turned out to be a major lemon. We re-evaluated our wants and needs, upped our budget, and got another new-to-us car about a week and a half ago.

Cue MIL and FIL wanting another new-to-them vehicle. They want a large SUV, despite the fact that they went from being a five person family to a three person family. The thinking is "hey, what about when the kids (and relevant significant others) come home for holidays, everyone needs a seat in our SUV!". Me: but that's only a few times per year, and if you get a smaller vehicle you can have better gas mileage. MIL: Everything will have better gas mileage than the old truck (GMC Yukon), so that doesn't really matter much.

Me: but you could get a great Toyota Prius v, which does all the things you want, is within your budget, and gets 50 mpg....

MIL: Lol, no.

At least I tried.

[kimmarg]

My Honda Fit-driving, Minnesotan self is laughing uproariously at your family's insistence that Indiana winters require such ridiculous vehicles.

Keep your Mini Cooper (if you want; not my favorite car), and ignore them. You'll be fine.

I know, right? I drive a Honda Fit in Maine!

[Sibley]

Ok, new one. Venting here.

I love my parents, I really do, but dear lord are they CRAP at financial decisions. They somehow managed to accumulate $10k+ in credit card debt, and were paying 15 or 20% interest on it. I helped them do a balance transfer to a 0% interest card, have emphasized repeatedly all along that they want to pay off as much as they can. Well, the offer is up next week. I'd done a bit of research and identified a card they could move the balance to (important info: there will soon be 2 new income streams coming in that should be dedicated to debt payoff. This should be close to $2k a month. Now since mom does the bills and she's beyond crap at budgeting, I will have to stay on top of that to make sure it happens.)

But no! They got discouraged with the option I'd found, and instead of chatting with me (they're leaning heavily on me to for help with this stuff) decided to CLOSE the credit card. They're going to get a loan from Lending Tree to pay off the credit card.

All I can say is, I really, really want to just cut up all the credit cards. They don't know how to use them properly, and they're just shooting themselves in the foot, repeatedly.

And that's on top of the whole mess with the house. I'm not even getting into that.

[Roadrunner53]

My in-laws were horrible with money. They were not rich and would buy stupid stuff they couldn't afford on credit and would blow money eating out in diners all the while the electric company would turn off the electric. They would run out of heating oil. Then would buy stupid collectible stuff from Danbury Mint where they had to buy the whole collection. Every few months a new addition to the collection would be offered. Then FIL had a bunch of expensive hobbies that he had to spend tons of money on. Then with the collectibles, they had to buy curio cabinets to display this junk. They had no room for the cabinets so it was all jammed into tight corners. Plus, they smoked like chimneys so the collectibles got covered in nicotine. UGH!

I know this woman who used to work at a corporation and made good money. While she was working she bought all these collectibles and after she retired she continued to do so. She and her BF who lived together have a small condo. I have never been there but have been told numerous times that it is so packed with collectibles that there is only a small path to go from one room to the other. It is piled high with this junk! Her credit card debt is over $100,000 from this junk and she did take some vacations with the credit card. She can barely pay the minimum payments and is retired now so on a limited income. I am sure she never saved any money while working. What is wrong with people thinking they need this crap when they have no room for it and can't afford it either?

[Threshkin]

My in-laws were horrible with money. They were not rich and would buy stupid stuff they couldn't afford on credit and would blow money eating out in diners all the while the electric company would turn off the electric. They would run out of heating oil. Then would buy stupid collectible stuff from Danbury Mint where they had to buy the whole collection. Every few months a new addition to the collection would be offered. Then FIL had a bunch of expensive hobbies that he had to spend tons of money on. Then with the collectibles, they had to buy curio cabinets to display this junk. They had no room for the cabinets so it was all jammed into tight corners. Plus, they smoked like chimneys so the collectibles got covered in nicotine. UGH!

I know this woman who used to work at a corporation and made good money. While she was working she bought all these collectibles and after she retired she continued to do so. She and her BF who lived together have a small condo. I have never been there but have been told numerous times that it is so packed with collectibles that there is only a small path to go from one room to the other. It is piled high with this junk! Her credit card debt is over $100,000 from this junk and she did take some vacations with the credit card. She can barely pay the minimum payments and is retired now so on a limited income. I am sure she never saved any money while working. What is wrong with people thinking they need this crap when they have no room for it and can't afford it either?

Obsessive-compulsive behavior.  Another form is people who save compulsively and absolutely refuse to spend their money.

[FatCat]

My in-laws were horrible with money. They were not rich and would buy stupid stuff they couldn't afford on credit and would blow money eating out in diners all the while the electric company would turn off the electric. They would run out of heating oil. Then would buy stupid collectible stuff from Danbury Mint where they had to buy the whole collection. Every few months a new addition to the collection would be offered. Then FIL had a bunch of expensive hobbies that he had to spend tons of money on. Then with the collectibles, they had to buy curio cabinets to display this junk. They had no room for the cabinets so it was all jammed into tight corners. Plus, they smoked like chimneys so the collectibles got covered in nicotine. UGH!

I know this woman who used to work at a corporation and made good money. While she was working she bought all these collectibles and after she retired she continued to do so. She and her BF who lived together have a small condo. I have never been there but have been told numerous times that it is so packed with collectibles that there is only a small path to go from one room to the other. It is piled high with this junk! Her credit card debt is over $100,000 from this junk and she did take some vacations with the credit card. She can barely pay the minimum payments and is retired now so on a limited income. I am sure she never saved any money while working. What is wrong with people thinking they need this crap when they have no room for it and can't afford it either?

Sometimes they think the collectables will be worth more someday. Or maybe they just like them. I knew someone with a massive beanie baby collection. Her walls were covered in them. Garage full of them. You couldn't walk through the house for all the beanie babies and garbage. When she died they were all thrown in the trash. Her son didn't want to sort the collection to see if any were worth anything. His friends said they would do if it they could get a cut of the value, but he said he wanted all the money from any sale. Since he wanted other people to do all the work and give him all the money he ended up with nothing.

[Roadrunner53]

My husbands aunt became a hoarder late in life. Very weird. When she passed away, her apartment was floor to ceiling with stuff and lots of it was from QVC in original bags and boxes and never used. Her apartment was infested with bed bugs and every single thing had to be thrown out. A clean up company had to come in with special gear so they didn't get eaten by the bugs. This was in an old, old apartment building and most likely no way to get rid of these bugs unless the whole building was fumigated. As far as I know, only her apartment was fumigated. I am sure the bed bugs were not brought in by her but her apartment got infested by others in the building. Probably every single apartment was infested. UGH! I had visited the apartment many years ago when her parents lived there and it was a tidy apartment. Can't imagine how this hoarder thing happened.

[Just Joe]

Our reputation in the family recently switched from poor to "frugal" when they figured out we make a good income x2 but spend a fraction of it (appearances). We were volun-told that we'd be hosting the elders in their old age b/c the rest of the family isn't settled or prosperous enough. Ahhh, yeah. More discussion is necessary...

It's the result of a long term spending problem by several parts of the family including our elders.

Maybe DW and I need to build a Sears catalog cottage in the backyard.

We love them but we'd rather have them near us, not necessarily under the same roof. ;)

[Sibley]

Ok, so since everyone got onto the STUFF category, I feel up to discussing the basement of my parent's house.

House is old. Old enough that something has happened to the drainage tiles around the foundation, and there is now a small water problem that will eventually destroy the foundation if not remediated. Fixing it involves cutting into the basement slab all around the foundation, digging down, putting in drainage, and there will be a sump pump. This is pretty major work. In order to do this, they will need to clear 4-5 feet all around the basement to give access. In order to clear 4-5 feet in the basement, they will have to move a shit ton of stuff. 75% of it isn't used, won't be used, should go away.

Separately, there have been discussions for the last couple years about selling the house and them moving near me (300 miles away). In preparation for an eventual move, mom has been going through things and decluttering. She's gotten rid of a TON of stuff. Recently, I hit upon the idea of having her open, sort, and repack everything, then put a label on each box of keep or sell. It's needed - the boxes are 20 years old, they will not survive a move. When they do move, any box labeled keep gets put in the truck, no thought process needed. It also gets around some other problems with the process due to my dad's dementia.

Mom liked this idea. So she has been doing this. She's gone through most of the attic and a big chunk of the basement, and has been stacking up the sell boxes all in one area. She has in fact completely filled that area up.

How do these 2 very different topics intersect? The sell boxes are in the basement. Given the amount of stuff in the basement in general, in order to do the basement work, they basically need to get all these sell boxes out, then shuffle other stuff into that spot (most of which other stuff should go away too). However, while mom has labeled these boxes "sell", there doesn't seem to be much intention of doing anything with them now, just "later". Never mind the multiple pieces of large furniture in the basement which need to go and I can't move.

Then lets add in that they DO NOT have the money for the basement stuff, doing it won't add value to the house, and given age and tolerance, they are not capable of actually dealing with the work anyway.

My sister and I have suggested that they sell the house now, as is, with 2 tenants - them and their upstairs tenant. They can continue to live there for another year or so with no maintenance/repair responsibilities. Mom and dad separately say they want to sell now, but despite our best efforts, we haven't been able to coordinate a conversation where all this is said!

We're at a standstill. ugh. thanks for letting me vent

[ms]

...I feel up to discussing the basement of my parent's house.

House is old. Old enough that something has happened to the drainage tiles around the foundation, and there is now a small water problem that will eventually destroy the foundation if not remediated. Fixing it involves cutting into the basement slab all around the foundation, digging down, putting in drainage, and there will be a sump pump. This is pretty major work.

snip snip

Out of curiosity, is there no solution that involves weather proofing the basement from the outside? We just did that on our 60 year old bungalow where they dug out around and sealed the foundation and put in new weeping tile on the perimeter. They also put a sump pump in the cold room. Let me tell you how happy we were when it was raining and we saw that sump pump spew water out for the first time.

The job cost about 12 grand, so not cheap either but the cutting the slab sounds very major.

Sorry to hear about the basement hoard of stuff - that's not an easy hurdle.

[Sibley]

...I feel up to discussing the basement of my parent's house.

House is old. Old enough that something has happened to the drainage tiles around the foundation, and there is now a small water problem that will eventually destroy the foundation if not remediated. Fixing it involves cutting into the basement slab all around the foundation, digging down, putting in drainage, and there will be a sump pump. This is pretty major work.

snip snip

Out of curiosity, is there no solution that involves weather proofing the basement from the outside? We just did that on our 60 year old bungalow where they dug out around and sealed the foundation and put in new weeping tile on the perimeter. They also put a sump pump in the cold room. Let me tell you how happy we were when it was raining and we saw that sump pump spew water out for the first time.

The job cost about 12 grand, so not cheap either but the cutting the slab sounds very major.

Sorry to hear about the basement hoard of stuff - that's not an easy hurdle.

Going from the inside is about $12k. Doing the outside is $20k. They've gotten quotes both ways.

[Raymond Reddington]

Ok, so since everyone got onto the STUFF category, I feel up to discussing the basement of my parent's house.

House is old. Old enough that something has happened to the drainage tiles around the foundation, and there is now a small water problem that will eventually destroy the foundation if not remediated. Fixing it involves cutting into the basement slab all around the foundation, digging down, putting in drainage, and there will be a sump pump. This is pretty major work. In order to do this, they will need to clear 4-5 feet all around the basement to give access. In order to clear 4-5 feet in the basement, they will have to move a shit ton of stuff. 75% of it isn't used, won't be used, should go away.

Separately, there have been discussions for the last couple years about selling the house and them moving near me (300 miles away). In preparation for an eventual move, mom has been going through things and decluttering. She's gotten rid of a TON of stuff. Recently, I hit upon the idea of having her open, sort, and repack everything, then put a label on each box of keep or sell. It's needed - the boxes are 20 years old, they will not survive a move. When they do move, any box labeled keep gets put in the truck, no thought process needed. It also gets around some other problems with the process due to my dad's dementia.

Mom liked this idea. So she has been doing this. She's gone through most of the attic and a big chunk of the basement, and has been stacking up the sell boxes all in one area. She has in fact completely filled that area up.

How do these 2 very different topics intersect? The sell boxes are in the basement. Given the amount of stuff in the basement in general, in order to do the basement work, they basically need to get all these sell boxes out, then shuffle other stuff into that spot (most of which other stuff should go away too). However, while mom has labeled these boxes "sell", there doesn't seem to be much intention of doing anything with them now, just "later". Never mind the multiple pieces of large furniture in the basement which need to go and I can't move.

Then lets add in that they DO NOT have the money for the basement stuff, doing it won't add value to the house, and given age and tolerance, they are not capable of actually dealing with the work anyway.

My sister and I have suggested that they sell the house now, as is, with 2 tenants - them and their upstairs tenant. They can continue to live there for another year or so with no maintenance/repair responsibilities. Mom and dad separately say they want to sell now, but despite our best efforts, we haven't been able to coordinate a conversation where all this is said!

We're at a standstill. ugh. thanks for letting me vent

And to think my hoarder grandmother (RIP) !solved! that problem by putting newspaper down in the basement to soak up the moisture! Sad part is after she passed my uncle who lives there now has done absolutely nothing to clean the house. There was a two feet wide space to walk through the house, that's it. Everything else was piles of junk and plastic bags full of junk. Food that expired twenty years ago. Periodicals, magazines, and church bulletins for the last 30 years. The freezer hadn't been defrosted since the Clinton presidency. The oven had barely ever been used, because that was where bread got stored. I once stayed with them for a summer when I was in school. Two full van loads of crap I took to a dumpster (with her permission, of course) made a barely noticeable difference. And I'm talking like, can't see out the rear view mirror full. It got so bad I just couldn't go up there anymore.

And that was years ago, I can't even imagine how bad it is now. For the life of me, I don't get how people get so attached to stuff they can't even enjoy their living space. "Collectibles" are particularly odious to me. Buying and saving junk cuz it might be worth more money someday. AKA mindless speculation. I'd rather accumulate space (land), freedom (money), knowledge, experience, and skills.

[Roadrunner53]

My aunt and uncle (now deceased) collected antiques. They had some old house they moved out of and I believe it was such a junk hole and falling apart they had to get out. So they bought antiques (furniture) and stored them there. Last I heard the house had basically self destructed because of holes in the roof and other issues. So they spent money on these antiques, stored them in a junk hole and lost everything. Not to mention they held onto it so long they were too elderly to do anything with it before the house fell apart. They always had the mind set that the longer they held onto the stuff the more valuable it would become. Guess they didn't think about the roof leaking all over the furniture. Not to mention, the house was probably hellish hot in the summer and freezing cold in the winter and the humidity in the summer. I would think most antique furniture should be stored in some kind of controlled temperatures to prevent warping, mold, mildew and water damage!

[ysette9]

That is a shame. My aunt and uncle have had a passion for antiques for the last 20 or more years. They have some really nice stuff. Despite growing up around that my sister and I fall perfectly into the millennial stereotype of not wanting stuff. They recognize that and wonderfully are in talks with a museum to take their collection when they eventually do die. Things aren’t hammered out yet but then they should have plenty of good years ahead of them (knock on wood). Unlike the situation above, they aren’t hoarders or anything, they just live in a huge house with things in it.

[Roadrunner53]

That is a shame. My aunt and uncle have had a passion for antiques for the last 20 or more years. They have some really nice stuff. Despite growing up around that my sister and I fall perfectly into the millennial stereotype of not wanting stuff. They recognize that and wonderfully are in talks with a museum to take their collection when they eventually do die. Things aren’t hammered out yet but then they should have plenty of good years ahead of them (knock on wood). Unlike the situation above, they aren’t hoarders or anything, they just live in a huge house with things in it.

Good plan on the furniture!

[Just Joe]

I know of two guys from different families and don't know each other. Each has same situation. Last surviving family member. Neither ever married. Both inherited everything in the entire family. Both an old family house full of everyone's stuff. And there it sits. These two guys are the lifetime caretakers for it all. Won't/can't part with it. They would both clear some money if they sold out but none of it is museum grade stuff, just regular stuff from several country families. Pots and pans, old appliances, furniture, old clothes.

Both are well off they could afford to travel a little, live in a comfortable modern home, and participate in their towns (and they do stay involved in their churches).

Makes me a sad to think about people trapped by stuff.

[ysette9]

And if they are the last of their lines, who cleans up the mess when they die?

[Roadrunner53]

I know of two guys from different families and don't know each other. Each has same situation. Last surviving family member. Neither ever married. Both inherited everything in the entire family. Both an old family house full of everyone's stuff. And there it sits. These two guys are the lifetime caretakers for it all. Won't/can't part with it. They would both clear some money if they sold out but none of it is museum grade stuff, just regular stuff from several country families. Pots and pans, old appliances, furniture, old clothes.

Both are well off they could afford to travel a little, live in a comfortable modern home, and participate in their towns (and they do stay involved in their churches).

Makes me a sad to think about people trapped by stuff.

Maybe the situation is so overwhelming they don't know where to begin. Seems if there is so much junk to go thru it would take a lifetime. These guys need to hire some kind of a clean out company or just hire two guys and get a dumpster and have them toss the obvious trash and maybe put some of the junk in a pile to determine if it is worth donating or selling. Someone needs to talk to these two guys and get them motivated to get the junk out of the house. Could be a fire hazard too.

[Sibley]

That is a shame. My aunt and uncle have had a passion for antiques for the last 20 or more years. They have some really nice stuff. Despite growing up around that my sister and I fall perfectly into the millennial stereotype of not wanting stuff. They recognize that and wonderfully are in talks with a museum to take their collection when they eventually do die. Things aren’t hammered out yet but then they should have plenty of good years ahead of them (knock on wood). Unlike the situation above, they aren’t hoarders or anything, they just live in a huge house with things in it.

That only works when the furniture is museum worthy. What my parents have is decidedly not.

[Sibley]

And if they are the last of their lines, who cleans up the mess when they die?

The executor, whomever that is. Either they tapped someone, or it'll end up going through probate court and they'll assign someone. Expenses generally paid out of the estate, then there are laws about what to do with assets if someone dies intestate.

[AlanStache]

Or if a good percent of the stuff is worth something then an estate sale can happen; someone would still need to deal with the junk stuff.

[Just Joe]

Both are very sentimental people.

[Threshkin]

...
Sometimes they think the collectables will be worth more someday. Or maybe they just like them. I knew someone with a massive beanie baby collection. Her walls were covered in them. Garage full of them. You couldn't walk through the house for all the beanie babies and garbage. When she died they were all thrown in the trash. Her son didn't want to sort the collection to see if any were worth anything. His friends said they would do if it they could get a cut of the value, but he said he wanted all the money from any sale. Since he wanted other people to do all the work and give him all the money he ended up with nothing.

My DW purchased a fairly large beanie baby collection at a yard sale.  She paid roughly 10 cents a piece for them.  They were the state beanies.  Each one had a quarter in the foot....

We still have  few left. Sans quarters they make good gifts for little kids.

[AlanStache]

beanie baby: When this came up the other day I checked ebay and some are actually worth more than 10$, I was shocked.  No clue what percent of them are still worth something. 

[Jouer]

...
Sometimes they think the collectables will be worth more someday. Or maybe they just like them. I knew someone with a massive beanie baby collection. Her walls were covered in them. Garage full of them. You couldn't walk through the house for all the beanie babies and garbage. When she died they were all thrown in the trash. Her son didn't want to sort the collection to see if any were worth anything. His friends said they would do if it they could get a cut of the value, but he said he wanted all the money from any sale. Since he wanted other people to do all the work and give him all the money he ended up with nothing.

My DW purchased a fairly large beanie baby collection at a yard sale.  She paid roughly 10 cents a piece for them.  They were the state beanies.  Each one had a quarter in the foot....

We still have  few left. Sans quarters they make good gifts for little kids.

Am I reading this right? Someone sold you an item for 10 cents and the item included 25 cents with it?

[FIRE@50]

Arbitrage...

[Threshkin]

...
Sometimes they think the collectables will be worth more someday. Or maybe they just like them. I knew someone with a massive beanie baby collection. Her walls were covered in them. Garage full of them. You couldn't walk through the house for all the beanie babies and garbage. When she died they were all thrown in the trash. Her son didn't want to sort the collection to see if any were worth anything. His friends said they would do if it they could get a cut of the value, but he said he wanted all the money from any sale. Since he wanted other people to do all the work and give him all the money he ended up with nothing.

My DW purchased a fairly large beanie baby collection at a yard sale.  She paid roughly 10 cents a piece for them.  They were the state beanies.  Each one had a quarter in the foot....

We still have  few left. Sans quarters they make good gifts for little kids.

Am I reading this right? Someone sold you an item for 10 cents and the item included 25 cents with it?

Yup.  :)  The quarters were in full view.  AIR, she got about 50 of them.  TBH they may have been worth more intact but we didn't bother with the hassle of trying to find a buyer.  We just pocketed the quarters and gave away the BBs.  They are great gifts for young kids. 

[Just Joe]

I related to a relative that I was doing ebike maintenance this weekend. I don't ride daily but several times a week when the weather is fair.

Relative kept stubbornly trying to relate it to motorcycle ownership as if this ebike was a failed motorcycle. Can't go as far or as fast. I ought to get rid of the ebike and get a motorcycle. WTH?

This isn't the first time. We had this same conversation a couple of years ago too.

Maybe I'm supposed to buy a motorcycle and do weekend rides with the relative. I like motorcycles and owned them in the past. I just like my bicycle better. <sigh>

Far cheaper and nearly silent. I see more wildlife this way and see all sorts of things at 15 mph that I'd never notice at 45 mph.

[Raymond Reddington]

But, but, wait, how???

The math does not compute.

[Lanthiriel]

I need somewhere to vent and my husband and sisters are sick of hearing about it...

My mom is 54. She divorced my dad (a 30+ year federal employee) almost 10 years ago. While they were married, she was largely a SAHM but for maybe the last 10 years of their marriage, she worked a part-time job at an elementary school. After the divorce, she bought a house she couldn't afford that was 40 minutes from her job. Over the years, she lost child support for each of my sisters as they left for college, and alimony dropped off around when the last one left. She tried foster parenting to supplement her income, but it was "too hard." The last year she lived in the HCOL west coast suburb I grew up in, she was making $18/hr working 7 hour days during the 180-day school year. I recently found out that during that year my grandparents paid $10k to fix her roof, bought her a vacuum cleaner, and paid for her heat that winter because she "couldn't afford it" despite her telling me about all the times she went out with her friends to the casino.

She decided to move to rural North Carolina to be near my sister. She figured that because Indeed has dozens of low skill positions posted, she'd just walk right into a job. She sols her house and spent $40k on a truck and trailer because she wanted to camp across the US. This took three weeks and now she drives a large AWD truck everywhere and the trailer hasn't moved except between storage facilities since she arrived.

She got a shitty part-time job and put all of her money except $25k into buying a small house with about a $40k mortgage. The house needs a new roof that she still has not paid for and my sister is pretty sure that that $25k emergency fund is almost gone. She finally got a shitty full-time job that she hates after she realized that she can't work in the NC school system unless she has an AA (which you think she'd have looked into before moving). She is looking into finishing her AA FINALLY but is contemplating doing a certificate program even though she has 20 years of experience working in elementary schools and that's what she loves doing. I finally lost it on her and told her that she's been trying to take the easy way out for 10 years and she finally just needs to buck up and do what needs to be done even if it's "hard" and "takes longer." She is just about to head back to the west coast for two weeks of unpaid vacation because "she deserves it."

She is constantly talking about the things she buys--purses, furniture, lawn ornaments, things for my sister's in laws, Christmas presents. She makes $11/hr and has expensive benefits. She drove 80 miles/day round-trip in her big truck. As far as I know she has maybe $100k in retirement. She also I think has a small pension from her old school district job that will show up at some point. I don't know whether she's eligible for Social Security or not. I know my dad doesn't pay into it because of his federal job, but I'm not sure if her school job was also exempt. I know she's eligible for some of my dad's pension when he retires. She refuses to look into all of this for reasons that are beyond me, so she has NO IDEA what her retirement income will look like or when she might start receiving it. Every time I think I get a little bit of accurate information, she says something else that makes me think she's lying to me.

Her current level of spending is unsustainable and I don't know what I'm going to do when the first request for money comes in. My husband is vehemently against giving her money and I understand why. My dad tried to pay for her to get a teaching degree. Her dad did too. But she has always had a million reasons why she can't implement a long-term plan to make her life better. It's just been a series of band-aids that are clearly on the path to resulting in her being completely broke. I don't see why we should be responsible for maintaining her lifestyle when she won't put in the effort. Plus she's YOUNG. She could live another 40 years, and it's not fair to me that I will have to work more years because she didn't want to work them. This summer is literally the first summer she's worked IN HER ENTIRE LIFE.

I am working on a clear set of rules that she has to follow before we'll give her money. It will include complete transparency in her finances and total accountability to us for what she's spending. Her pride will never let her be able to do it, so my hope is that by having firm boundaries, we can always place the blame squarely on her for being unwilling to meet our rules. And even then the only help we would probably be willing to give is to buy her house. That way we would be responsible for the mortgage, property taxes, and insurance, as well as any necessary repairs, so that she'll always have a roof over her head, but we'll also have equity to show for it in the end.

OK, that was a novel... Rant over. For now.

[Raymond Reddington]

Ugh, lawn ornaments are quite possibly the literal worst. Why anyone spends money on these odious, ugly, no resale value pieces of garbage is beyond me. You are better off lighting the money on fire in the winter...at least it provides a little heat.

[Roadrunner53]

I need somewhere to vent and my husband and sisters are sick of hearing about it...

My mom is 54. She divorced my dad (a 30+ year federal employee) almost 10 years ago. While they were married, she was largely a SAHM but for maybe the last 10 years of their marriage, she worked a part-time job at an elementary school. After the divorce, she bought a house she couldn't afford that was 40 minutes from her job. Over the years, she lost child support for each of my sisters as they left for college, and alimony dropped off around when the last one left. She tried foster parenting to supplement her income, but it was "too hard." The last year she lived in the HCOL west coast suburb I grew up in, she was making $18/hr working 7 hour days during the 180-day school year. I recently found out that during that year my grandparents paid $10k to fix her roof, bought her a vacuum cleaner, and paid for her heat that winter because she "couldn't afford it" despite her telling me about all the times she went out with her friends to the casino.

She decided to move to rural North Carolina to be near my sister. She figured that because Indeed has dozens of low skill positions posted, she'd just walk right into a job. She sols her house and spent $40k on a truck and trailer because she wanted to camp across the US. This took three weeks and now she drives a large AWD truck everywhere and the trailer hasn't moved except between storage facilities since she arrived.

She got a shitty part-time job and put all of her money except $25k into buying a small house with about a $40k mortgage. The house needs a new roof that she still has not paid for and my sister is pretty sure that that $25k emergency fund is almost gone. She finally got a shitty full-time job that she hates after she realized that she can't work in the NC school system unless she has an AA (which you think she'd have looked into before moving). She is looking into finishing her AA FINALLY but is contemplating doing a certificate program even though she has 20 years of experience working in elementary schools and that's what she loves doing. I finally lost it on her and told her that she's been trying to take the easy way out for 10 years and she finally just needs to buck up and do what needs to be done even if it's "hard" and "takes longer." She is just about to head back to the west coast for two weeks of unpaid vacation because "she deserves it."

She is constantly talking about the things she buys--purses, furniture, lawn ornaments, things for my sister's in laws, Christmas presents. She makes $11/hr and has expensive benefits. She drove 80 miles/day round-trip in her big truck. As far as I know she has maybe $100k in retirement. She also I think has a small pension from her old school district job that will show up at some point. I don't know whether she's eligible for Social Security or not. I know my dad doesn't pay into it because of his federal job, but I'm not sure if her school job was also exempt. I know she's eligible for some of my dad's pension when he retires. She refuses to look into all of this for reasons that are beyond me, so she has NO IDEA what her retirement income will look like or when she might start receiving it. Every time I think I get a little bit of accurate information, she says something else that makes me think she's lying to me.

Her current level of spending is unsustainable and I don't know what I'm going to do when the first request for money comes in. My husband is vehemently against giving her money and I understand why. My dad tried to pay for her to get a teaching degree. Her dad did too. But she has always had a million reasons why she can't implement a long-term plan to make her life better. It's just been a series of band-aids that are clearly on the path to resulting in her being completely broke. I don't see why we should be responsible for maintaining her lifestyle when she won't put in the effort. Plus she's YOUNG. She could live another 40 years, and it's not fair to me that I will have to work more years because she didn't want to work them. This summer is literally the first summer she's worked IN HER ENTIRE LIFE.

I am working on a clear set of rules that she has to follow before we'll give her money. It will include complete transparency in her finances and total accountability to us for what she's spending. Her pride will never let her be able to do it, so my hope is that by having firm boundaries, we can always place the blame squarely on her for being unwilling to meet our rules. And even then the only help we would probably be willing to give is to buy her house. That way we would be responsible for the mortgage, property taxes, and insurance, as well as any necessary repairs, so that she'll always have a roof over her head, but we'll also have equity to show for it in the end.

OK, that was a novel... Rant over. For now.

Here is some information on Federal pension division. I hope your mother discussed it during the divorce proceedings: https://work.chron.com/divorced-spouses-rights-federal-employees-retirement-16909.html

Your mother sounds like a train wreck. Can your two sisters and you set up a meeting with your mom to discuss all these issues? You need to write an agenda of issues to present to her. Can you contact your father in regard to the pension? Maybe you could meet with your sisters to discuss Plan A, Plan B, Plan C.  Plans of action. Your mother is going to self destruct soon.

It is obvious she needs to get her AA and quickly. Can she take on line course while still working?
She needs to sell the truck and trailer and get a car good on gas.
She needs to stop spending money stupidly.
She needs to figure what money she will have for retirement.
Could she sell the house and find low income housing until she gets her AA?
Could she live with you or one of your sisters and pay a low rent till she gets her AA and a better job?

There is so much going on here not sure where she would start, but all doable IF she is willing to work on HERSELF! Not sure how you can force any of this on her but if you and your sisters confront her, maybe she will wake up.
Good luck and keep us updated!

[AlanStache]

I need somewhere to vent and my husband and sisters are sick of hearing about it...

My mom is 54. She divorced my dad (a 30+ year federal employee) almost 10 years ago. While they were married, she was largely a SAHM but for maybe the last 10 years of their marriage, she worked a part-time job at an elementary school. After the divorce, she bought a house she couldn't afford that was 40 minutes from her job. Over the years, she lost child support for each of my sisters as they left for college, and alimony dropped off around when the last one left. She tried foster parenting to supplement her income, but it was "too hard." The last year she lived in the HCOL west coast suburb I grew up in, she was making $18/hr working 7 hour days during the 180-day school year. I recently found out that during that year my grandparents paid $10k to fix her roof, bought her a vacuum cleaner, and paid for her heat that winter because she "couldn't afford it" despite her telling me about all the times she went out with her friends to the casino.

She decided to move to rural North Carolina to be near my sister. She figured that because Indeed has dozens of low skill positions posted, she'd just walk right into a job. She sols her house and spent $40k on a truck and trailer because she wanted to camp across the US. This took three weeks and now she drives a large AWD truck everywhere and the trailer hasn't moved except between storage facilities since she arrived.

She got a shitty part-time job and put all of her money except $25k into buying a small house with about a $40k mortgage. The house needs a new roof that she still has not paid for and my sister is pretty sure that that $25k emergency fund is almost gone. She finally got a shitty full-time job that she hates after she realized that she can't work in the NC school system unless she has an AA (which you think she'd have looked into before moving). She is looking into finishing her AA FINALLY but is contemplating doing a certificate program even though she has 20 years of experience working in elementary schools and that's what she loves doing. I finally lost it on her and told her that she's been trying to take the easy way out for 10 years and she finally just needs to buck up and do what needs to be done even if it's "hard" and "takes longer." She is just about to head back to the west coast for two weeks of unpaid vacation because "she deserves it."

She is constantly talking about the things she buys--purses, furniture, lawn ornaments, things for my sister's in laws, Christmas presents. She makes $11/hr and has expensive benefits. She drove 80 miles/day round-trip in her big truck. As far as I know she has maybe $100k in retirement. She also I think has a small pension from her old school district job that will show up at some point. I don't know whether she's eligible for Social Security or not. I know my dad doesn't pay into it because of his federal job, but I'm not sure if her school job was also exempt. I know she's eligible for some of my dad's pension when he retires. She refuses to look into all of this for reasons that are beyond me, so she has NO IDEA what her retirement income will look like or when she might start receiving it. Every time I think I get a little bit of accurate information, she says something else that makes me think she's lying to me.

Her current level of spending is unsustainable and I don't know what I'm going to do when the first request for money comes in. My husband is vehemently against giving her money and I understand why. My dad tried to pay for her to get a teaching degree. Her dad did too. But she has always had a million reasons why she can't implement a long-term plan to make her life better. It's just been a series of band-aids that are clearly on the path to resulting in her being completely broke. I don't see why we should be responsible for maintaining her lifestyle when she won't put in the effort. Plus she's YOUNG. She could live another 40 years, and it's not fair to me that I will have to work more years because she didn't want to work them. This summer is literally the first summer she's worked IN HER ENTIRE LIFE.

I am working on a clear set of rules that she has to follow before we'll give her money. It will include complete transparency in her finances and total accountability to us for what she's spending. Her pride will never let her be able to do it, so my hope is that by having firm boundaries, we can always place the blame squarely on her for being unwilling to meet our rules. And even then the only help we would probably be willing to give is to buy her house. That way we would be responsible for the mortgage, property taxes, and insurance, as well as any necessary repairs, so that she'll always have a roof over her head, but we'll also have equity to show for it in the end.

OK, that was a novel... Rant over. For now.

Here is some information on Federal pension division. I hope your mother discussed it during the divorce proceedings: https://work.chron.com/divorced-spouses-rights-federal-employees-retirement-16909.html

Your mother sounds like a train wreck. Can your two sisters and you set up a meeting with your mom to discuss all these issues? You need to write an agenda of issues to present to her. Can you contact your father in regard to the pension? Maybe you could meet with your sisters to discuss Plan A, Plan B, Plan C.  Plans of action. Your mother is going to self destruct soon.

It is obvious she needs to get her AA and quickly. Can she take on line course while still working?
She needs to sell the truck and trailer and get a car good on gas.
She needs to stop spending money stupidly.
She needs to figure what money she will have for retirement.
Could she sell the house and find low income housing until she gets her AA?
Could she live with you or one of your sisters and pay a low rent till she gets her AA and a better job?

There is so much going on here not sure where she would start, but all doable IF she is willing to work on HERSELF! Not sure how you can force any of this on her but if you and your sisters confront her, maybe she will wake up.
Good luck and keep us updated!

Change will be hard because what she has been doing has been "working" for 54 years.  Make sure you and your husband understand how each other feels on this - preemptively bringing in a third party might not be a bad idea. 

[Sibley]

Ugh, lawn ornaments are quite possibly the literal worst. Why anyone spends money on these odious, ugly, no resale value pieces of garbage is beyond me. You are better off lighting the money on fire in the winter...at least it provides a little heat.

Yes, they're dumb. However, I need to pick up a cheap fake sitting deer for my cat. She like to rub noses with the statue, and her previous statue friend is gone. (yes, I'm a crazy cat lady. The white cat in my pic is the one who is missing her statue friend)

[Rural]

Ugh, lawn ornaments are quite possibly the literal worst. Why anyone spends money on these odious, ugly, no resale value pieces of garbage is beyond me. You are better off lighting the money on fire in the winter...at least it provides a little heat.

Yes, they're dumb. However, I need to pick up a cheap fake sitting deer for my cat. She like to rub noses with the statue, and her previous statue friend is gone. (yes, I'm a crazy cat lady. The white cat in my pic is the one who is missing her statue friend)

That's not a lawn ornament, it's a cat toy. Totally different.

[Step37]

@Lanthiriel that sounds like an absolutely horrible situation. I don’t know if you’ve ever checked out Playing with Fire UK’s journal, but she has (amazingly, against all odds) gotten her crazy-spending in-laws’ finances and spending under much better control. It’s a pretty incredible story to date, and may offer some good insights about how to handle your situation.

[Lanthiriel]

Thanks for the kind words and ideas, guys. I really needed to get the whole thing off my chest. You're right that it's probably time to take a more proactive approach. She's staying with me for a few days in a couple of weeks. Might be a good time to try to get all the cards on the table.

[Raymond Reddington]

Ugh, lawn ornaments are quite possibly the literal worst. Why anyone spends money on these odious, ugly, no resale value pieces of garbage is beyond me. You are better off lighting the money on fire in the winter...at least it provides a little heat.

Yes, they're dumb. However, I need to pick up a cheap fake sitting deer for my cat. She like to rub noses with the statue, and her previous statue friend is gone. (yes, I'm a crazy cat lady. The white cat in my pic is the one who is missing her statue friend)

That's not a lawn ornament, it's a cat toy. Totally different.

This. Seconded.

[Sun Hat]

I need somewhere to vent and my husband and sisters are sick of hearing about it...

My mom is 54....

...

Your mother sounds like a train wreck. Can your two sisters and you set up a meeting with your mom to discuss all these issues? You need to write an agenda of issues to present to her. Can you contact your father in regard to the pension? Maybe you could meet with your sisters to discuss Plan A, Plan B, Plan C.  Plans of action. Your mother is going to self destruct soon.

It is obvious she needs to get her AA and quickly. Can she take on line course while still working?
She needs to sell the truck and trailer and get a car good on gas.
She needs to stop spending money stupidly.
She needs to figure what money she will have for retirement.
Could she sell the house and find low income housing until she gets her AA?
Could she live with you or one of your sisters and pay a low rent till she gets her AA and a better job?

There is so much going on here not sure where she would start, but all doable IF she is willing to work on HERSELF! Not sure how you can force any of this on her but if you and your sisters confront her, maybe she will wake up.
Good luck and keep us updated!

I like RoadRunner 53's idea of sitting her down with your sisters. Something akin to an intervention is in order. She needs to be told in a firm but loving way that her spending is going to lead her to ruin and is causing hardship to everyone around her. If you're able to chart out best and worst case scenarios (where she'd be with current spending and no family to bail her out), it may drive the point home.

I'd refrain from offering to give her money under any terms. She's young enough to fix her situation herself - and also young enough to leech off of you long enough to ruin your marriage and finances.

[SwordGuy]

@Lanthiriel ,  if you end up speaking to your mom, you will need to be REALLY blunt.  Subtle hints and cues will not work.

Unless you are really used to being REALLY blunt, you'll probably think you ARE being blunt when you're still too soft-worded to get thru the armor plating in your mom's skull.   Blunt will almost certainly be needed.   Toss in a lot of love with the message but ONLY if it's "Tough Love".   

"Mom, we love you.  We love you enough to tell you really important things that you need to know, even though they might hurt your feelings.   We do not want to hurt your feelings because we love you.   But this is so important we need to say it anyway."

"Mom, you are going broke.   It is your own fault.  No one else is to blame.   You can fix this yourself.  We expect you to fix this problem yourself.  We will NOT bail you out.  You will sink or swim based on your own choices.  This is not negotiable.   We will not endanger our own childrlen's financial future because you repeatedly make poor financial life choices. "


And, of course, you're making a choice to walk away if she chooses financial suicide.   It's the right choice.

"Mom, we are actually very good with money.  Because we love you, we are willing to share our knowledge with you so you know what changes in your behavior you need to make in order to fix this problem.   We hope you choose to fix the problem because it will be so much better for you if you do.   But that is your choice.   You need to adult up and face the financial facts, or you can choose to stay on your current path.  Either way, the result you get will be the one you chose and the one you earned by your actions."


If your message isn't at least that blunt, I'm wagering all she'll hear is , "blah blah Money (Oh, not getting any, nevermind) blah blah blah."

[Roadrunner53]

@Lanthiriel ,  if you end up speaking to your mom, you will need to be REALLY blunt.  Subtle hints and cues will not work.

Unless you are really used to being REALLY blunt, you'll probably think you ARE being blunt when you're still too soft-worded to get thru the armor plating in your mom's skull.   Blunt will almost certainly be needed.   Toss in a lot of love with the message but ONLY if it's "Tough Love".   

"Mom, we love you.  We love you enough to tell you really important things that you need to know, even though they might hurt your feelings.   We do not want to hurt your feelings because we love you.   But this is so important we need to say it anyway."

"Mom, you are going broke.   It is your own fault.  No one else is to blame.   You can fix this yourself.  We expect you to fix this problem yourself.  We will NOT bail you out.  You will sink or swim based on your own choices.  This is not negotiable.   We will not endanger our own childrlen's financial future because you repeatedly make poor financial life choices. "


And, of course, you're making a choice to walk away if she chooses financial suicide.   It's the right choice.

"Mom, we are actually very good with money.  Because we love you, we are willing to share our knowledge with you so you know what changes in your behavior you need to make in order to fix this problem.   We hope you choose to fix the problem because it will be so much better for you if you do.   But that is your choice.   You need to adult up and face the financial facts, or you can choose to stay on your current path.  Either way, the result you get will be the one you chose and the one you earned by your actions."


If your message isn't at least that blunt, I'm wagering all she'll hear is , "blah blah Money (Oh, not getting any, nevermind) blah blah blah."

I think on top of this oral presentation you should have some written out materials like:

Problem 1: Expensive vehicle and trailer, low gas mileage, long commute, cost of gas too much
Solution: Sell truck and trailer, buy economical non gas guzzler, can bank part of sale of truck and trailer

Problem 2: Need to figure out retirement money
Solution: Refer to divorce papers on ex's Federal Pension division agreement. Figure out any other retirement money available.

Problem 3: Not knowing what your money needs per month, per year
Solution: Need to list all monthly, yearly expenses to find out $$ needs and stop spending money on unnecessary gifts, clothing and accessories to be able to pay expenses

Put more facts and figures and $$ into each problem and solution to make your case. List out all the issues with problem and solution so she can see that even though there is a problem, there is a solution. Give her a copy and ask if you can help her with these issues. Sometimes we all need a shoulder to lean on.

You can point out that she is spending as an example 5 gallons of gas a day times 5 days a week that is 25 gallons times around $3 a gallon. That would be $75 a week on a salary of $11 an hour times 40 hours which is $440 a week minus taxes and minus  $75 equals X amount of dollars.

List it all out like this so she can see it in black and white.

I would also check into low income housing and have that information for her in black and white. Tell her the benefits of unloading the house because of the repairs, taxes and so forth. At least till she gets a better paying job. If she has a nest egg for retirement she might not qualify for low income housing. Maybe then she needs to find a cheap rent.

Good luck but get your ducks in a row because you may only have one shot at this.

No one wants to see their mother live under a bridge but sometimes you can't help those who won't help themselves.

[a286]

Our reputation in the family recently switched from poor to "frugal" when they figured out we make a good income x2 but spend a fraction of it (appearances). We were volun-told that we'd be hosting the elders in their old age b/c the rest of the family isn't settled or prosperous enough. Ahhh, yeah. More discussion is necessary...

My dad always volun-told me that I would be supporting him in his old age, and giving him a job running the office of my vet clinic (I applied, didn't get in, and now mainly thank my lucky stars for that because that is some crazy debt for an over saturated field...). I was always like, haha, good joke... as this was in high school and college, but he always had a serious note to it...

Then I found out that when my parents took out PLUS loans when I went to college, he took the max amount every year (only needed maybe half) and he told me I owed him the $100k in PLUS loans, though he couldn't show where the other $50k he didn't need to take out went.

I think I dodged a major bullet not getting into vet school...

[Just Joe]

Good gosh. This forum always redefines "real problems". Hope life is being nicer to you these days.

[mm1970]

Our reputation in the family recently switched from poor to "frugal" when they figured out we make a good income x2 but spend a fraction of it (appearances). We were volun-told that we'd be hosting the elders in their old age b/c the rest of the family isn't settled or prosperous enough. Ahhh, yeah. More discussion is necessary...

My dad always volun-told me that I would be supporting him in his old age, and giving him a job running the office of my vet clinic (I applied, didn't get in, and now mainly thank my lucky stars for that because that is some crazy debt for an over saturated field...). I was always like, haha, good joke... as this was in high school and college, but he always had a serious note to it...

Then I found out that when my parents took out PLUS loans when I went to college, he took the max amount every year (only needed maybe half) and he told me I owed him the $100k in PLUS loans, though he couldn't show where the other $50k he didn't need to take out went.

I think I dodged a major bullet not getting into vet school...

Wow, you guys make me feel lucky, in some ways.  Both my parents are gone (my dad was super cheap, managed to save $15k in 23 years living on a very small amount of Social Security, well under $1000 a month).  My stepfather was frugal and has plenty of money.  My MIL is doing just fine with her SS and her house, and my FIL has a girlfriend who can bankroll him.

[FireHiker]

I am working on a clear set of rules that she has to follow before we'll give her money. It will include complete transparency in her finances and total accountability to us for what she's spending. Her pride will never let her be able to do it, so my hope is that by having firm boundaries, we can always place the blame squarely on her for being unwilling to meet our rules. And even then the only help we would probably be willing to give is to buy her house. That way we would be responsible for the mortgage, property taxes, and insurance, as well as any necessary repairs, so that she'll always have a roof over her head, but we'll also have equity to show for it in the end.

Although the specific details differ, your mom and my mom have some similarities. The "good" news for me is that I made it clear any help from me would require transparency and accountability and, so far, that seems to have worked. I hope the same is true for you. I will be honest, it is a constant source of stress in the back of my head, wondering what happens when she's mooched off her sister past the point of sustainability (the current "plan"). Fortunately she is very intimidated by the normalcy and financial stability of my husband's family and there is no way she'll ask me for anything. I think. I have two siblings she's helped out in various ways over the years, so I assume she would go to them first, but who knows. With three kids of my own, my priority lies with providing them with a stable foundation and ensuring my husband and I will never be a financial burden to them. Good luck to you with your mom, and always feel free to vent here. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people here who get it...

[Just Joe]

Realistically we'll buy a duplex if we end up "hosting" any elders long term. Rent to the relative in one side, rent out the other side. Just more reminders that DW and I want to be debt free in our old age. Not buying new mortgages and new car payment books late in life. 

[redbird]

Ugh. Lanthiriel's story about their mom reminds me of DH's sister.

SIL is in her mid 30's, a single mom with 2 kids, and insists on running her own jewelry-making business that makes her below minimum wage. She has a bachelor's in business (paid for 100% by the in-laws, she never had student loans) and should be able to do pretty well with this job... but she barely markets her business. She seriously could make more money by going to work at Target or the grocery store or Home Depot or McDonalds's (yes, these places and more are hiring locally). The only reason she survives is 1) MIL (who is awesome at finances) is her free accountant/tax preparer and 2) MIL/FIL not only pay 100% of the mortgage on the nice house they bought for her, but support her in many other ways financially. MIL and FIL are retired, have no debts, and have the money to afford to pay for this but it just boggles my mind, especially because it feels like it has to be negatively affecting their enjoyment of their retirement. Like SIL will constantly call FIL over to paint her walls because the littlest one colored on them again, or she'll ask MIL to take the older one to his sports games all the time because she doesn't feel like it.

MIL and FIL are lovely, wonderful people and super intelligent. They just really, really love their 2 children and don't want to let them fail or struggle. It wasn't a problem with DH, who is independent and self-reliant. They paid for his bachelor's too, but once he graduated, he decided to put on his adulting pants and has paid for his own way in life since. But SIL takes advantage of their generosity... and unfortunately, they let her.

I really don't know what SIL is going to do when her enabling parents pass away. DH has flat out said he'd be happy to give her free advice, but he's not paying her a cent. He knows he'll never see it again and she'll just keep coming back for more. She's gotten away with this for all 30-something years of her life, so unless a big change happens (like her parents dying), then I don't think she'll ever stop doing what she's doing.

[Playing with Fire UK]

I'd refrain from offering to give her money under any terms. She's young enough to fix her situation herself - and also young enough to leech off of you long enough to ruin your marriage and finances.

+1 to this. It'll start with an emergency that feels like a one-off and reasonable enough; then the camel's nose is in the tent and it will never end. People who cannot control their own spending have an infinite capacity to spend other people's money.

I thought that a one-off cash injection was going to fix a problem. It really didn't, it just opened the floodgate of requests. I also thought it would support our relationship: I have never been so wrong. Lending and giving money and advice damaged so many relationships (with the in-laws, between me and my husband, with my sister-in-law). It was the worst money we ever spent. My story here.

[pachnik]

Ugh. Lanthiriel's story about their mom reminds me of DH's sister.

SIL is in her mid 30's, a single mom with 2 kids, and insists on running her own jewelry-making business that makes her below minimum wage. She has a bachelor's in business (paid for 100% by the in-laws, she never had student loans) and should be able to do pretty well with this job... but she barely markets her business. She seriously could make more money by going to work at Target or the grocery store or Home Depot or McDonalds's (yes, these places and more are hiring locally). The only reason she survives is 1) MIL (who is awesome at finances) is her free accountant/tax preparer and 2) MIL/FIL not only pay 100% of the mortgage on the nice house they bought for her, but support her in many other ways financially. MIL and FIL are retired, have no debts, and have the money to afford to pay for this but it just boggles my mind, especially because it feels like it has to be negatively affecting their enjoyment of their retirement. Like SIL will constantly call FIL over to paint her walls because the littlest one colored on them again, or she'll ask MIL to take the older one to his sports games all the time because she doesn't feel like it.

MIL and FIL are lovely, wonderful people and super intelligent. They just really, really love their 2 children and don't want to let them fail or struggle. It wasn't a problem with DH, who is independent and self-reliant. They paid for his bachelor's too, but once he graduated, he decided to put on his adulting pants and has paid for his own way in life since. But SIL takes advantage of their generosity... and unfortunately, they let her.

I really don't know what SIL is going to do when her enabling parents pass away. DH has flat out said he'd be happy to give her free advice, but he's not paying her a cent. He knows he'll never see it again and she'll just keep coming back for more. She's gotten away with this for all 30-something years of her life, so unless a big change happens (like her parents dying), then I don't think she'll ever stop doing what she's doing.

I have a friend whose sister is an older version of your SIL.  Friend's sister is mid-50's and her parents paid for a house, utilities etc. etc. and sister never worked a day in her life.  Mid-50's with no resume so probably unemployable at this point.  My friend resents her.  All the 'family help' went to one sibling and the other two sibs got very, very little.