Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 1548664 times)

BMW Jalopy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4600 on: July 09, 2018, 03:37:21 PM »
I've been puzzled for a long time about my dad. He has been working as a [let's say podiatrist for anonymity] for 50 years (still at it @ 80+), lives frugally in a paid off house, yet never seems to have any money saved up. Just figured it out, whenever he has more than his monthly bills, he gives the money to Jesus. So much for any inheritance, but it's his money to do with whatever he wants. I just hope he isn't looking to me to fund his long term care.

Raymond Reddington

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4601 on: July 09, 2018, 04:24:18 PM »
I have an uncle who inherited a house from my grandmother who was a hoarder and refuses to throw anything out. He's basically been her caretaker for the last 20 years and is too cheap to do anything with his life. Divorced, no kids, no prospects, no hobbies, and just now decided that talking to his ex every once in a while (note: they were together over 25 years ago, and she has since remarried and lives entirely in another part of the country) would be his attempt to be social.

The house is a mess still and would probably be condemned by the local FD, and he has done nothing with whatever "wealth" she had. It's probably all sitting in various checking or savings accounts. He has 3 cars and drives everywhere, even though he has nothing to do except go to doctors and get groceries.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 06:55:00 PM by Raymond Reddington »

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4602 on: July 09, 2018, 04:33:57 PM »
I suspect I might have made a statement along the lines of "Oh, I didn't realize you were in a line of work where you perform services for your clients in your bedroom attire.   $100 per hour is pretty cheap for that work, isn't it?"


I kept it out of the original post but she claimed that she makes that much doing freelance grant writing.  I believe she started doing grant writing while working for a non-profit and then was able to attract freelance work. 

I rarely say this out loud in real life but I've made about $200,000 working part-time at a restaurant on top of my full-time job since graduating from college.  I think most of my relatives are completely baffled by my continued weekend work (and they don't like my little house) but will disapprove if I retire at age 45. 

I should add that I lucked out completely with a low-tech lot flipping scheme...the area improved much faster than I anticipated.  My relatives and coworkers made fun of me for paying close attention to property in "bad" neighborhoods but I'm having the last laugh.  Many people in my area were so blinded by old-fashioned pro-suburb anti-city bias but now they're red in the face because some people made out like bandits when the historic neighborhoods near public housing went from worst to first.

Very cool!    Kudos to you!

And don't give a damn about your relatives pissing on your FIRE party with their disapproval.   If you get tired of it, remind them that if you had followed their advice about financial plans before, you would still have to work for a living...

jmecklenborg

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4603 on: July 09, 2018, 05:49:34 PM »
And don't give a damn about your relatives pissing on your FIRE party with their disapproval.   If you get tired of it, remind them that if you had followed their advice about financial plans before, you would still have to work for a living...

Yeah we have a family culture that looks dimly on not working.  Even if you have the money to retire, you are expected to still work full-time until 62 or so.

Blackeagle

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4604 on: July 09, 2018, 06:45:54 PM »
There has been an unfortunate return to wood apartment construction all over the United States, plus the quality of wood has gone down dramatically since WWII since the old growth forests are gone and everything's built out of fast-growing pine.  I own a brick home from 1914 that has old-growth pine joists and flooring, and the quality is much higher than today's pine, although very low-quality compared to the old-growth wood in the better homes and apartments from the 1800s and early 1900s. 

When my grandfather built his house back in 1950, he built it with oak framing, using lumber from some timber my grandmother's family owned.

TartanTallulah

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4605 on: July 11, 2018, 02:34:27 PM »
My husband has a large extended family and every summer as many of them as possible get together for an informal social event. It's this coming weekend. There's a Facebook group for those attending.

Everyone has been posting things like when they're arriving, where they're staying, what food/drink they're bringing, and how they can't wait to see everyone again.

Except for one cousin. This woman is married for the second time, to a delightful man who has a fat wallet. What she posted was, "We're coming down via (place) and (husband) will be cycling because he can't miss his training for (expensive corporate obstacle race featuring mud). We're doing this gruelling event to raise money for (charity). It's not just us; (four other members of her husband's family) are taking part too. You can make donations via (online giving site) or if you prefer you can give us your donation in person at the weekend.

This event costs £85 a ticket and will result in the destruction of a set of running kit and a pair of shoes per participant. If it was really All About Charity, they could have donated their entry fees and what they're saving by not having to replace ruined kit instead of threatening to spoil the party by rattling a can under people's noses.

We'll be giving them a wide berth.

jinga nation

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4606 on: July 11, 2018, 04:10:32 PM »
My husband has a large extended family and every summer as many of them as possible get together for an informal social event. It's this coming weekend. There's a Facebook group for those attending.

Everyone has been posting things like when they're arriving, where they're staying, what food/drink they're bringing, and how they can't wait to see everyone again.

Except for one cousin. This woman is married for the second time, to a delightful man who has a fat wallet. What she posted was, "We're coming down via (place) and (husband) will be cycling because he can't miss his training for (expensive corporate obstacle race featuring mud). We're doing this gruelling event to raise money for (charity). It's not just us; (four other members of her husband's family) are taking part too. You can make donations via (online giving site) or if you prefer you can give us your donation in person at the weekend.

This event costs £85 a ticket and will result in the destruction of a set of running kit and a pair of shoes per participant. If it was really All About Charity, they could have donated their entry fees and what they're saving by not having to replace ruined kit instead of threatening to spoil the party by rattling a can under people's noses.

We'll be giving them a wide berth.
at least she married a MAMIL. but crass behavior. Better have a 'No Soliciting' sign up at the party. That goes for anyone that tries peddling MLM crap.

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4607 on: July 11, 2018, 06:31:32 PM »
...
at least she married a MAMIL. but crass behavior. Better have a 'No Soliciting' sign up at the party. That goes for anyone that tries peddling MLM crap.
[/quote]

Had to check but most of my gear is polyester and spandex - I think I am safe from that acronym.

BeautifulDay

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4608 on: July 11, 2018, 08:09:02 PM »
I've been puzzled for a long time about my dad. He has been working as a [let's say podiatrist for anonymity] for 50 years (still at it @ 80+), lives frugally in a paid off house, yet never seems to have any money saved up. Just figured it out, whenever he has more than his monthly bills, he gives the money to Jesus. So much for any inheritance, but it's his money to do with whatever he wants. I just hope he isn't looking to me to fund his long term care.
This is my parents except in addition to giving to Jesus they also give to freeloading siblings. Dad will work until he dies.  But if that's what he wants, ok.  I'll probably help pay mom's long term care.  She never had much say in any financial matters, so not exactly her fault. Who knows what she might have chosen given actual options.

jengod

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4609 on: July 11, 2018, 08:27:02 PM »
We walked out together but then things deteriorated when I mentioned that I usually work at a restaurant on the weekends.

I have a friend who was horrified that a father at their son's school drives Uber on the weekend. She thought that people of their status should not have to have second jobs and isn't it a shame that the system and all the education debt are so unfair.

I bit my tongue, but I thought it was admirable that the guy was working two jobs to earn whatever money they needed or wanted: paying down that pesky education debt for one thing!


shelivesthedream

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4610 on: July 11, 2018, 09:33:47 PM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

Dicey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4611 on: July 11, 2018, 10:39:44 PM »
Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?
OMG, ROFL!

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4612 on: July 11, 2018, 11:19:56 PM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

There is a charity bike ride I enjoy doing. It’s not exactly mustachian, and besides the entry fee it requires a fairly hefty “donation”. I just pay the donation because I can’t bring myself to ask people to donate so that I can ride, even if it is 100 miles.

Then again, I never thought about asking people to sponsor me to eat my dinner. Maybe I should try that...

Linda_Norway

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4613 on: July 12, 2018, 01:17:46 AM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

I don't like it too. I remember having done this once or twice as a child in primary school, because the whole school did so. I asked the neighbours to sign up. But it is an embarrassing thing to do. And you morally bring people in a difficult position to recline.

jinga nation

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4614 on: July 12, 2018, 05:24:40 AM »
...
at least she married a MAMIL. but crass behavior. Better have a 'No Soliciting' sign up at the party. That goes for anyone that tries peddling MLM crap.

Had to check but most of my gear is polyester and spandex - I think I am safe from that acronym.
[/quote]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandex

Lycra is a brand name for spandex aka elastane.
I'm a Mamil, admittedly, on certain weekends when I sit on my butt and do something with them legs.

Dave1442397

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4615 on: July 12, 2018, 06:02:38 AM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

There is a charity bike ride I enjoy doing. It’s not exactly mustachian, and besides the entry fee it requires a fairly hefty “donation”. I just pay the donation because I can’t bring myself to ask people to donate so that I can ride, even if it is 100 miles.

Then again, I never thought about asking people to sponsor me to eat my dinner. Maybe I should try that...

I feel the same way about those bike rides. I did a few of them years ago. Not only did I dislike asking people for money, I found that almost everyone I rode with was asking the same group of people for money, which got old in a hurry.

These days, I only do rides where the entry fee is the donation. I did one a few weeks ago that was a last-minute thing, and they were giving out T-shirts after the ride. They didn't have my size, and they were very apologetic about it, offering to special order me the size I needed, etc, because "you paid for the shirt". I said, "No, I donated to your charity - I don't care about the shirt."

Dabnasty

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4616 on: July 12, 2018, 07:39:23 AM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

There is a charity bike ride I enjoy doing. It’s not exactly mustachian, and besides the entry fee it requires a fairly hefty “donation”. I just pay the donation because I can’t bring myself to ask people to donate so that I can ride, even if it is 100 miles.

Then again, I never thought about asking people to sponsor me to eat my dinner. Maybe I should try that...

I feel the same way about those bike rides. I did a few of them years ago. Not only did I dislike asking people for money, I found that almost everyone I rode with was asking the same group of people for money, which got old in a hurry.

These days, I only do rides where the entry fee is the donation. I did one a few weeks ago that was a last-minute thing, and they were giving out T-shirts after the ride. They didn't have my size, and they were very apologetic about it, offering to special order me the size I needed, etc, because "you paid for the shirt". I said, "No, I donated to your charity - I don't care about the shirt."

Free t-shirts from charities are the worst. If I give you $20 to help sick people, why on earth would I want you to turn around and spend a portion of that on a shirt for me. If I wanted a shirt, I would have bought one and given you less money.

I get that the little gifts encourage some people to give, presumably for a net increase in funds, and that the free shirts may act as a sort of advertising, but still. I don't like it.

FatCat

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4617 on: July 12, 2018, 12:24:19 PM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

I hated it when I was a kid. My school had us do one of those with laps around the city park walking path. They kept saying that we're helping the charity by walking. I thought it was ridiculous to present it like that. Donate money to charity, or go for a walk. Don't act like walking is curing cancer. It also taught me that my family, neighbors, and mom's friends are super tight. Most of them refused, but the ones that agrees all put 1 cent with one person putting a whopping 2 cents per lap. My mom tried to get family to give some more but they said they didn't want to be forced to pay some high amount since I was a high energy kid. So in my time limit of 1 hour I made 5 laps around our city park walking path. One person looked confused I only raised 5 cents off him and gave me a dollar. So if he was willing to give a dollar, why not bid a little more? Did he really think a little kid would run over a hundred laps in an hour? The park was huge.

mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4618 on: July 12, 2018, 01:58:51 PM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

Ah ha, this is why I was somewhat misplaced at the VP of fundraising for the school PTA.

What I've learned is, depending on the school, this is how people like to donate money:
1.  The jog-a-thon.  It's cute, and I'm glad people do it.
2.  The auction.  Spend hours and hours getting things donated, and then people will bid for them and buy them.   Do I need discounted laser surgery?  Or dinner for 2?
3.  "Come to dinner at X pizza place and the school gets part of the proceeds."  How about instead of spending $50 so that the school gets $7.50, I just give you ten bucks and eat at home?  (This is tricky though, as it also supports a local business that supports the school.)
4. "Party books" - where a couple or a few folks will throw a "party" with a fee to attend.  The people throwing the party pay for it.  The fees for attending go to the school.

I can't be the only one who would rather just write a check?

Aside from just donating money, I do, on occasion, donate to people doing a marathon or bike ride or some such thing for charity.  Because I think it's good for them to go out and run and stuff.  Or whatever.  At least they have to "work" for it.

Raymond Reddington

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4619 on: July 12, 2018, 02:47:43 PM »
While it's not in the context of schools typically (I don't have kids), I tend to agree.

-The entire purpose of participating in a charitable endeavor is to raise money for the cause. I do not like charitable causes that require people to solicit money from friends or family to participate - you "running" is not raising money for the cause therefore, you are relying on sponsors to do it, and for me that's a no. Just like the whole ALS ice bucket challenge - make a viral sensation on the internet where people actively avoid giving money to charity by instead dumping ice water on themselves.
-Get togethers that waste donated money by the costs, generally detract from the overall mission in my opinion (exception below). T-shirts can be used to successfully market the cause, provided they are produced at low cost, and they advance the cause in a way that is supportive of the cause. Meaning, I cringe when I see T shirts promoting a "1 mile walk for charity" - might as well put "crossing the street for charity" as there's no difficulty involved, and IMO it undermines the charitable cause in many ways, not the least of which is the laughability factor.
-Get togethers can, however, be productive in the context of donors who have reached a certain level participating in an expensive dinner at the location of the charity. These get togethers attract people of considerable means, all of whom are invested in the organization to varying positive degrees, and the opportunity exists to showcase the most recent goings on, how the money is being put to use, and to solicit further donations tastefully in the context of the hospitality extended to donors. However, at this level of giving, it goes way beyond "pay $20 for the school and get a pizza party"

Just my thoughts.

minniesmom

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4620 on: July 12, 2018, 06:44:27 PM »
Just like the whole ALS ice bucket challenge - make a viral sensation on the internet where people actively avoid giving money to charity by instead dumping ice water on themselves.

I mostly agree with you except for this part. Many regular folks that participated in the ALS ice bucket challenge also donated $100 or more in addition to posting a silly video. Look it up. Donations skyrocketed compared to the previous year. It was probably one of the greatest charitable campaigns of our lifetime, and the irony is, it was not conceived or even managed by professional fundraisers. Just sort of took on a life of its own, and it would not have been effective without the viral video component.

Dee

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4621 on: July 12, 2018, 07:06:00 PM »
Ha, I'm the relative who just doesn't get it! I *have* shown up at a family event with my spouse with both of us wearing the T-shirt for the bike ride we were doing that summer, and fundraising for a charity. I guess now that I've read this, I shouldn't be surprised it didn't amount to many (any?) donations.

We did complete our 100km bike ride (the one and only time we went that distance) and met the minimal fundraising goal, mostly with donations from close family members (not the extended family members at the family gathering).

Now, when I do this type of thing, I usually just post a link to the fundraising on my FB page and don't approach that many people directly. I think my days of minimal donation amounts are over. I will go the annual Terry Fox Run (walking or biking) for as long as I am able to -- that guy is an inspiration and commemorating him every year is something that is near and dear to my heart, no matter how much or how little I fund raise.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4622 on: July 12, 2018, 10:59:53 PM »
The point behind the T-shirts is that it's one of the cheapest ways in the world to advertise and build brand recognition. Instead of paying $$$ for a billboard, pay a few dollars per person for the T-shirt. Then, when they wear it to the gym or while pulling weeds in the front yard and talk to their neighbors, everyone who sees the T-shirt gets a tiny bit of ad exposure. It takes hundreds or even thousands of brand exposures before people recognize the charity or are seriously tempted to donate. It's the same with the sponsorship model: the goal is to build a brand and to give people some kind of experience with the charity or connection to it. The big money doesn't come from the grandparents or family who pay a kid 1 cent per lap at the local thing-a-thon. It comes from the major sponsors or donors who make a donation directly to the charity that is triggered by the announcement of the event, or by a request or announcement by the right person.

I belong to a circle of friends who regularly do sponsorship based giving: "I'm raising money for ABC or XYZ". We tend to make sure our donations show up as "anonymous" on social media, and we don't co-opt family events to talk about fundraising, however each of us knows who the others are and what their pet charities are. People choose the charities that are meaningful to them and that are extremely well run. They're mostly medical research and medical assistance charities. Sometimes the fund raising has an athletic component, but when it does, people pay their own way or donate the value of what they expect to receive.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4623 on: July 13, 2018, 12:52:41 AM »
The question that I usually want to ask is "And how much are you donating? Oh, nothing? Well, I'll put in as much as you are. I'll run too! Yay for curing cancer!"

I get that obviously it must work for the charities otherwise they wouldn't do it - but I still don't get it.

Intrigued

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4624 on: July 13, 2018, 06:24:59 AM »
Isn't the point on charity events that people don't simply donate enough to support many of the worthwhile charities so doing a sponsored event is required.

That sponsored event not only raises more money than they otherwise would, including a large chunk of the participation fee being a donation/profit, but as mentioned above it also raises awareness for the charity both in terms of information they are trying to make public (e.g. symptoms of a disease) but also financially in future donations.

Yes the individual will want to take part (that is after all what the charity is aiming for to make these events attractive) but shouldn't be knocked for a worthwhile cause. Whether you donate or not is another matter, appreciate all have preferences and it is a social issue that puts people under pressure - just can't see it being something to criticise another person about.

(And I don't take part in these events as prefer to establish who I'm supporting and donate regularly to them)

Slow&Steady

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4625 on: July 13, 2018, 07:47:15 AM »
I recently received the below message thread from a family member.

"Did you know they now have a (S&S favorite band) station on satellite radio"

"That is cool, I don't have satellite radio"

"Really, with as much time as you spend in the car it would be a good investment."

"Radio is free"

However, same family member turned a side gig into his full-time income and I guess could be considered FIREd.  Except that he allows parents and in-law to pay part of his bills to do this and has 0 savings.

Sibley

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4626 on: July 13, 2018, 08:30:18 AM »
Isn't the point on charity events that people don't simply donate enough to support many of the worthwhile charities so doing a sponsored event is required.

That sponsored event not only raises more money than they otherwise would, including a large chunk of the participation fee being a donation/profit, but as mentioned above it also raises awareness for the charity both in terms of information they are trying to make public (e.g. symptoms of a disease) but also financially in future donations.

Yes the individual will want to take part (that is after all what the charity is aiming for to make these events attractive) but shouldn't be knocked for a worthwhile cause. Whether you donate or not is another matter, appreciate all have preferences and it is a social issue that puts people under pressure - just can't see it being something to criticise another person about.

(And I don't take part in these events as prefer to establish who I'm supporting and donate regularly to them)

Actually, I think the problem is more that we have too many charities, many of them poorly run. Evidence: websites that allow you to evaluate how much of your donation actually goes to the charitable purpose. Get rid of all those nonprofits that have disproportionate overheads and we'll shrink the list overall.

Dabnasty

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4627 on: July 13, 2018, 08:47:30 AM »
I recently received the below message thread from a family member.

"Did you know they now have a (S&S favorite band) station on satellite radio"

"That is cool, I don't have satellite radio"

"Really, with as much time as you spend in the car it would be a good investment."

"Radio is free"

However, same family member turned a side gig into his full-time income and I guess could be considered FIREd.  Except that he allows parents and in-law to pay part of his bills to do this and has 0 savings.
I don't think he could be considered FIREd in any way. He is definitely not financially independent if others pay part of his bills and he has no savings. He's not really retired either if he's working a sidegig.

More like "Financially dependent, part time self employed"?

FireHiker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4628 on: July 13, 2018, 10:14:42 AM »
Ah ha, this is why I was somewhat misplaced at the VP of fundraising for the school PTA.

What I've learned is, depending on the school, this is how people like to donate money:
1.  The jog-a-thon.  It's cute, and I'm glad people do it.
2.  The auction.  Spend hours and hours getting things donated, and then people will bid for them and buy them.   Do I need discounted laser surgery?  Or dinner for 2?
3.  "Come to dinner at X pizza place and the school gets part of the proceeds."  How about instead of spending $50 so that the school gets $7.50, I just give you ten bucks and eat at home?  (This is tricky though, as it also supports a local business that supports the school.)
4. "Party books" - where a couple or a few folks will throw a "party" with a fee to attend.  The people throwing the party pay for it.  The fees for attending go to the school.

I can't be the only one who would rather just write a check?


Thankfully my kids' schools have the option to just write a tax-deductive check to the school foundation/PTSA instead of participating in any of the fundraising. That's the option we choose. We will occasionally do the "dining for dollars" thing if it's a local place we like; eating out is one of our biggest mustachian challenges but we try to be smarter about it anyway. At least they don't do the awful selling wrapping paper thing anymore like my oldest son's elementary school 10 years ago. I hated that!

Slow&Steady

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4629 on: July 13, 2018, 11:09:24 AM »
I recently received the below message thread from a family member.

"Did you know they now have a (S&S favorite band) station on satellite radio"

"That is cool, I don't have satellite radio"

"Really, with as much time as you spend in the car it would be a good investment."

"Radio is free"

However, same family member turned a side gig into his full-time income and I guess could be considered FIREd.  Except that he allows parents and in-law to pay part of his bills to do this and has 0 savings.
I don't think he could be considered FIREd in any way. He is definitely not financially independent if others pay part of his bills and he has no savings. He's not really retired either if he's working a sidegig.

More like "Financially dependent, part time self employed"?

I agree, guess I should stop trying to spin it into a positive. 

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4630 on: July 13, 2018, 11:19:46 AM »
The question that I usually want to ask is "And how much are you donating? Oh, nothing? Well, I'll put in as much as you are. I'll run too! Yay for curing cancer!"

I get that obviously it must work for the charities otherwise they wouldn't do it - but I still don't get it.

I think it's because there are some differences between charities that aren't always evident. Let's call them "apple", "orange", "banana", "grape", and "almond" charities.

An apple charity uses the thing-a-thon for fund raising and outreach. People who participate pay their own admission fees and often make an additional donation. They are supporting something that frequently has nothing to do with the sports activity and frequently support the apple charity in other ways. Most of the labor comes from volunteers and groups of people that support the apple charity. In my hometown, for example, there's a major running event every spring that benefits the zoo and aquarium. The running event is part of a well planned fund raising and publicity program, and some years it's brought in over a million dollars. It's not the only way the zoo charity brings in money, because the outreach experience is just as big a part of it. But it gives the zoo access to attention and money from people who aren't primarily interested in the zoo, such as runners. Part of the run actually goes through the zoo in the behind-the-scenes area people don't ordinarily get to see. With an apple charity event, you pay to play but there's little emphasis on getting other people to pay.

An orange charity is more interested in promoting the thing-a-thon activity than it is in raising money for some purpose. People who do athletic events or thing-a-thons for orange charities pay fees to participate, but the charity putting on the event is devoted solely to the popularization of the sport. Most of the admission fees go to running the event and paying overhead expenses, because the event *is* the attraction. A small portion may be directed to a health or human services charity but that's more to take advantage of the other charity's name and social capital.

The banana charities are the ones that use sponsorship based thing-a-thons where people hit up their friends and family for per-unit contributions of $x per golf hole or $y per lap. These are either very small local charities where the participants or their families benefit from whatever is raised. Although they tend to be the kind of things many people in the community resent because they don't enjoy being asked for sponsorship or required to solicit money, banana charity thing-a-thons provide a crucial life lesson because they teach people, especially kids, that it's very difficult to get something for nothing, just by sticking their hand out. If they want new jerseys for their soccer team, or if they want that new Little League park, it's just like in the old Britney Spears song: "(they'd) better work, bitch". The labor in question is usually trivial, such as running around in circles or jumping rope, however they provide a better life lesson than, say, the GoFundMe approach where people just stick their hands out. Banana charities help people develop an anti-entitlement attitude. Yes, it's a mathematically inefficient way to raise money. I regard it as part of a character-building process in which the people who benefit from the charitable work have some ownership in the organization: it's part of participating.

The grape charities are highly devoted to fund raising, much like the apple charities, and for them it's all about raising cash beyond the initial participation fee. The responsible ones do encourage people to sponsor themselves before asking anyone else to chip in, because they care about credibility for themselves and for their participants. Not all grape charities are responsible that way, and when a self-absorbed weenie gets involved you get behavior much like what you're complaining about.

The almond charities don't have events of their own, but they sponsor competitors for different events such as, say, the Boston Marathon. The competitor is expected to raise money for the charity in amounts that greatly exceed whatever is spent on him or her. If they fail to do that, they are replaced by a volunteer who can and will. The athletes are expected to act like ambassadors for the charity in question and to actively promote the charity. It is something that generally only appeals to people with a strong emotional connection to the charity.

I go in mostly for apple and almond charities, with orange if and only if I enjoy the activity (I regard them much like a for-profit vendor of services). I did a grape event back in May that involved getting my head shaved bald; it's for an organization I respect that uses its income in an extremely effective and efficient way. For banana groups, I don't get involved in the thing-a-thons anymore or waste time footling around and trying to follow up to make sure everyone gets paid. But I have been known to make a donation if I support the mission.

What I think you're seeing is some obnoxious grape and banana behavior.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4631 on: July 13, 2018, 11:28:45 AM »
Isn't the point on charity events that people don't simply donate enough to support many of the worthwhile charities so doing a sponsored event is required.

That sponsored event not only raises more money than they otherwise would, including a large chunk of the participation fee being a donation/profit, but as mentioned above it also raises awareness for the charity both in terms of information they are trying to make public (e.g. symptoms of a disease) but also financially in future donations.

Yes the individual will want to take part (that is after all what the charity is aiming for to make these events attractive) but shouldn't be knocked for a worthwhile cause. Whether you donate or not is another matter, appreciate all have preferences and it is a social issue that puts people under pressure - just can't see it being something to criticise another person about.

(And I don't take part in these events as prefer to establish who I'm supporting and donate regularly to them)

Actually, I think the problem is more that we have too many charities, many of them poorly run. Evidence: websites that allow you to evaluate how much of your donation actually goes to the charitable purpose. Get rid of all those nonprofits that have disproportionate overheads and we'll shrink the list overall.

Most of those sites have no way to compare different kinds of charities and no intelligent way to measure the results, so making them happy is mostly a paperwork exercise.

A medical research charity will always have a gigantic overhead and a small number of people served, but its assets will usually greatly exceed its debt because it has loads of assets. A fund raising charity that gives money to that medical research charity will retain very few assets and spend next to nothing on overhead and administration, but may use debt as a tool to help with seasonal fundraising related costs to maximize cash flow throughput to their program. They are maximizing their benefit to their program and doing it in a sustainable way but they get dinged for it.

Most small charities that pay for administration turn into life support systems for the administrators and his or her cronies.

Goldielocks

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4632 on: July 13, 2018, 11:47:22 AM »
Re- school fundraising, small group fundraising.

Three activities that work locally, here.

1.  Raffle baskets -- people donate the stuff for the baskets.  There are 8-12 baskets, total.  Other people buy tickets and put them in the raffle box next to the basket they want to win, or across all of them.

Almost free to the coordinating group (they buy the tickets, wrapping materials, only), and generates a LOT of money.

2.  Garage sale type event - using donations.  This relies on your volunteer group giving you very nice quality items to have, such as a working lawnmower or nice patio furniture, nice bicycles and housewares, for a spring event.

3.  50/50 tickets,  Need a gambling  / charity license to do these, but they can also raise a lot if you have a large crowd because the pay -out is usually well over $100 for each 50/50 draw series.

This last one only works well if you have a trend of history, you need a few years of well run events on that specific week of the year to start to build a crowd -- and that is hosting a social dinner or lunch event.  Our church does octoberfest (with a band and beer), and a Christmas soup/sandwich lunch (with massive bake sale).   The bakesale only nets about $350, but the soup / sandwich lunch gets $750 net of costs. Oktoberfest nets about $1000.  These mainly work because people want to socialize, and socializing is the primary purpose, not the money...and so over half of the participants are not affiliated with the church.  The entry prices are very low ($6 lunch, $15 dinner), and the hall can fit about 180 people.   The church keeps the "religious" theme to a bare minimum.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4633 on: July 13, 2018, 11:59:56 AM »
Re- school fundraising, small group fundraising.

Three activities that work locally, here.

1.  Raffle baskets -- people donate the stuff for the baskets.  There are 8-12 baskets, total.  Other people buy tickets and put them in the raffle box next to the basket they want to win, or across all of them.

Almost free to the coordinating group (they buy the tickets, wrapping materials, only), and generates a LOT of money.

2.  Garage sale type event - using donations.  This relies on your volunteer group giving you very nice quality items to have, such as a working lawnmower or nice patio furniture, nice bicycles and housewares, for a spring event.

3.  50/50 tickets,  Need a gambling  / charity license to do these, but they can also raise a lot if you have a large crowd because the pay -out is usually well over $100 for each 50/50 draw series.

This last one only works well if you have a trend of history, you need a few years of well run events on that specific week of the year to start to build a crowd -- and that is hosting a social dinner or lunch event.  Our church does octoberfest (with a band and beer), and a Christmas soup/sandwich lunch (with massive bake sale).   The bakesale only nets about $350, but the soup / sandwich lunch gets $750 net of costs. Oktoberfest nets about $1000.  These mainly work because people want to socialize, and socializing is the primary purpose, not the money...and so over half of the participants are not affiliated with the church.  The entry prices are very low ($6 lunch, $15 dinner), and the hall can fit about 180 people.   The church keeps the "religious" theme to a bare minimum.

What's allowable, or not allowable, for many charities varies depending on the tax code and the laws that apply. I notice that you're in BC, which benefits from Canada's much more liberal rules about charity raffles, charity bingo, and social activities involving alcohol.

State-side, #1 and #3 are considered "not tax exempt" activities and the same would apply to the beer portion of your church's Oktoberfest. Money raised from alcohol sales or gambling becomes taxable income that must be tracked separately. (This keeps charities from competing effectively with other legally sanctioned forms of alcohol sale or gambling). Moreover, if the money earned by a charity in this way ever becomes the majority of its income, the charity can lose its tax exempt status.

Goldielocks

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4634 on: July 13, 2018, 12:06:01 PM »
...
Moreover, if the money earned by a charity in this way ever becomes the majority of its income, the charity can lose its tax exempt status.

LOL  not to mention throwing doubt on the religious status and likely being subject to review and censure by the bishop!  (Some Alcohol = ok.  Minor fundraising on property with a social focus = ok.  Being a for profit sales and drinking outlet =/= NOT OK!)

markbike528CBX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4635 on: July 13, 2018, 09:57:33 PM »
...
Moreover, if the money earned by a charity in this way ever becomes the majority of its income, the charity can lose its tax exempt status.

LOL  not to mention throwing doubt on the religious status and likely being subject to review and censure by the bishop!  (Some Alcohol = ok.  Minor fundraising on property with a social focus = ok.  Being a for profit sales and drinking outlet =/= NOT OK!)

hmm....... In my town THE biggest party is the local "Octoberfest" fundraiser for a church school.  Anonymous to protect the best party in town.

ohsnap

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4636 on: July 14, 2018, 08:17:44 AM »
What I've learned is, depending on the school, this is how people like to donate money:
...
3.  "Come to dinner at X pizza place and the school gets part of the proceeds."  How about instead of spending $50 so that the school gets $7.50, I just give you ten bucks and eat at home?  (This is tricky though, as it also supports a local business that supports the school.)
...
This one drives me nuts - these are posted on FB about once a week in my community, for various fundraisers like the high school girls' volleyball team, or "help buy junior's family a wheelchair van."  Even if the entire community turns out and spends $5k on sub sandwiches or pizza or whatever that night, junior's family only ends up with $500 for their new van.  I like a variation on your idea better: Each family that wants to participate buys a Costco pizza for their dinner for $10 and then gives $40 to the charity.  A much better split, IMO.

ohsnap

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4637 on: July 14, 2018, 08:25:44 AM »
..
The almond charities don't have events of their own, but they sponsor competitors for different events such as, say, the Boston Marathon. The competitor is expected to raise money for the charity in amounts that greatly exceed whatever is spent on him or her. If they fail to do that, they are replaced by a volunteer who can and will. The athletes are expected to act like ambassadors for the charity in question and to actively promote the charity. It is something that generally only appeals to people with a strong emotional connection to the charity.
...

I love your summary of these!  Just a small correction:  The almond charities at events such as Boston require the participants to provide a credit card.  They aren't replaced if they fail to meet the fundraising minimum (which I believe is about $5k these days for the Boston-participating charities).  Instead, their credit card is charged for the difference between what they raised and the minimum.  So if you raised $2k from friends and family - bam, your credit card is hit with a $3k charge a couple of weeks before the event.

I know someone who is registering to run Boston next year with a charity.  She's already informed all of her friends that she'll be asking for a $50 donation from each.  "It's for cancer!" she told us.  Hmmm I think it's so she can run Boston but I'm a cynic like that.

CindyBS

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4638 on: July 14, 2018, 01:18:59 PM »
What I've learned is, depending on the school, this is how people like to donate money:
...
3.  "Come to dinner at X pizza place and the school gets part of the proceeds."  How about instead of spending $50 so that the school gets $7.50, I just give you ten bucks and eat at home?  (This is tricky though, as it also supports a local business that supports the school.)
...
This one drives me nuts - these are posted on FB about once a week in my community, for various fundraisers like the high school girls' volleyball team, or "help buy junior's family a wheelchair van."  Even if the entire community turns out and spends $5k on sub sandwiches or pizza or whatever that night, junior's family only ends up with $500 for their new van.  I like a variation on your idea better: Each family that wants to participate buys a Costco pizza for their dinner for $10 and then gives $40 to the charity.  A much better split, IMO.

I write a check to my kids' PTAs in the beginning of school year with a note that says "Please considered the enclosed money a donation in lieu of participation in fundraisers".   

I help with events at the school and donate time as well, but do not help with much fundraising and refuse to buy anything related to them.   It has worked well for years and most PTA treasurers and presidents have thanked me since most parents just refuse to participate or give anything.

TartanTallulah

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4639 on: July 14, 2018, 01:24:46 PM »
...
at least she married a MAMIL. but crass behavior. Better have a 'No Soliciting' sign up at the party. That goes for anyone that tries peddling MLM crap.

Had to check but most of my gear is polyester and spandex - I think I am safe from that acronym.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandex

Lycra is a brand name for spandex aka elastane.
I'm a Mamil, admittedly, on certain weekends when I sit on my butt and do something with them legs.
[/quote]

My husband and I are MAMILs. Or OPILs, ;-) We have, on occasion, invited people to donate to charity in response to us doing a sporting event that's unusual or particularly stretching for us and blogging about our training and the event itself. And we sponsor other people who meet our criteria for sponsorship. But we'd never hijack a social event to ask for donations. That's just bad manners.

Interestingly, I did the local parkrun before the party and someone asked me what parkrun was and if I was doing it for charity.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4640 on: July 14, 2018, 03:04:18 PM »
..
The almond charities don't have events of their own, but they sponsor competitors for different events such as, say, the Boston Marathon. The competitor is expected to raise money for the charity in amounts that greatly exceed whatever is spent on him or her. If they fail to do that, they are replaced by a volunteer who can and will. The athletes are expected to act like ambassadors for the charity in question and to actively promote the charity. It is something that generally only appeals to people with a strong emotional connection to the charity.
...

I love your summary of these!  Just a small correction:  The almond charities at events such as Boston require the participants to provide a credit card.  They aren't replaced if they fail to meet the fundraising minimum (which I believe is about $5k these days for the Boston-participating charities).  Instead, their credit card is charged for the difference between what they raised and the minimum.  So if you raised $2k from friends and family - bam, your credit card is hit with a $3k charge a couple of weeks before the event.

I know someone who is registering to run Boston next year with a charity.  She's already informed all of her friends that she'll be asking for a $50 donation from each.  "It's for cancer!" she told us.  Hmmm I think it's so she can run Boston but I'm a cynic like that.

Re: bolded part... there's one more twist. The following year, the runner who allows that to happen will lose their sponsorship and be replaced by a different athlete.

Another way of doing it is for the entry fee to be paid *only* for the highest-earning runner who raises the most money. That's problematic, logistics-wise because a lot of the folks running for the almond charities pay at least some of their own travel expenses.

stashja

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4641 on: July 14, 2018, 03:06:21 PM »
I realise I sound like a horrible sister to my brother but I have no place else to vent about my parents’ doing their best to make sure he eventually ends up homeless, since my partner and I refuse to take him in. Anyway, in preparation for year 9 of his “studying” for the degree he will probably never earn, Mr. 35-Going-on-15 (my DH’s totally apt name for him) has agreed with my parents that he should move out of the rental apartment he shares with his former classmate Phil, who graduated about 5 years ago and is gainfully employed. Apparently, Phil’s socialising makes it hard for 35gf15 to “study” and THAT is the latest explanation of his academic and career rut. So what do my parents do? They find him his own apartment (rent: more than twice my mortgage) and now my mom is shopping Wayfair to furnish it for him. (What happened to his half of the other apartment’s furniture, which she bought a few years ago? Did the local thrift shops all close? Does Craigslist no longer exist?)

Anyway, thanks and sorry.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4642 on: July 14, 2018, 03:21:04 PM »
I realise I sound like a horrible sister to my brother but I have no place else to vent about my parents’ doing their best to make sure he eventually ends up homeless, since my partner and I refuse to take him in. Anyway, in preparation for year 9 of his “studying” for the degree he will probably never earn, Mr. 35-Going-on-15 (my DH’s totally apt name for him) has agreed with my parents that he should move out of the rental apartment he shares with his former classmate Phil, who graduated about 5 years ago and is gainfully employed. Apparently, Phil’s socialising makes it hard for 35gf15 to “study” and THAT is the latest explanation of his academic and career rut. So what do my parents do? They find him his own apartment (rent: more than twice my mortgage) and now my mom is shopping Wayfair to furnish it for him. (What happened to his half of the other apartment’s furniture, which she bought a few years ago? Did the local thrift shops all close? Does Craigslist no longer exist?)

Anyway, thanks and sorry.

No you are not a horrible sister. Your brother is in la la land and at 35 it is way past time to grow up. Your parents are enablers and he will never grow up.

When I was 35 I was a factory worker. Got married at age 19 almost 20. We saved our money like maniacs and two years later built our home. So at age 22 we moved into a brand new home with a mortgage of course. My hub and I changed jobs over the years and made more money. He eventually got his HVAC license and I ended up working for a R&D company. We continued to save like maniacs. We are now retired.

So what I am trying to say is that we came from humble beginnings. Me a factory worker and the hub not making that much money. But we evolved over the years and made a good life for ourselves.

Will your parents pay rent for him too? OMG!

Tass

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4643 on: July 14, 2018, 03:30:31 PM »
-The entire purpose of participating in a charitable endeavor is to raise money for the cause. I do not like charitable causes that require people to solicit money from friends or family to participate - you "running" is not raising money for the cause therefore, you are relying on sponsors to do it, and for me that's a no. Just like the whole ALS ice bucket challenge - make a viral sensation on the internet where people actively avoid giving money to charity by instead dumping ice water on themselves.

I totally agree with the sentiment that was going around the thread up above, but it's important to realize this sort of viral marketing (a) brought awareness of ALS into the mainstream, and (b) actually raised millions of dollars. And a lot of that money went not only to support people living with the disease, but also researchers working on understanding it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/28/health/the-ice-bucket-challenge-helped-scientists-discover-a-new-gene-tied-to-als.html

As a life sciences researcher - in what is becoming an increasingly parched funding climate - perhaps that matters more to me than to the average person. But I think this example deserves to be in a slightly different category than paying to attend a fancy charity gala, for example. No money was "wasted" making the donors feel good about themselves. You donated, or you were punished in an amusing public forum. I donated. And I never would have otherwise - it wouldn't have occurred to me.

EDIT: Removed giant chart for ease of reading. Chart showing distribution of ice bucket challenge funds here: http://www.alsa.org/assets/images/ibc/ALS-IBC-infographic-mobile1.png
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 03:32:47 PM by Tass »

stashja

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4644 on: July 14, 2018, 04:33:15 PM »

No you are not a horrible sister. Your brother is in la la land and at 35 it is way past time to grow up. Your parents are enablers and he will never grow up.

When I was 35 I was a factory worker. Got married at age 19 almost 20. We saved our money like maniacs and two years later built our home. So at age 22 we moved into a brand new home with a mortgage of course. My hub and I changed jobs over the years and made more money. He eventually got his HVAC license and I ended up working for a R&D company. We continued to save like maniacs. We are now retired.

So what I am trying to say is that we came from humble beginnings. Me a factory worker and the hub not making that much money. But we evolved over the years and made a good life for ourselves.

Will your parents pay rent for him too? OMG!

I admire people who have taken your journey, RR. I hope you and your husband are enjoying your retirement.

They say that because he is paying his own rent and has since a few months after being fired from his last job but one (about a year ago) he is doing fine. I work in education so I know his situation is not normal nor good. I don’t want him to be homeless. Oh, and his idea of a mixed drink last Christmas nearly knocked out my DH, who is 6’3, but had no effect on 35go15. I see him so infrequently I guess it’s possible it’s high tolerance and not alcoholism, but I have no idea.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 04:35:27 PM by stashja »

shelivesthedream

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4645 on: July 14, 2018, 11:58:36 PM »
It's absolutely the banana charities I have a problem with - my beef being with sponsorship, not with events. And it's partly because I do think it's something for nothing. "Sponsor me to hop a thousand times!" Why? Why should I give you money for hopping? What do I get out of it? Nothing. So you might as well ask me donate based on the charity's need and merits and not bother with the hopping.

mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4646 on: July 15, 2018, 09:53:01 AM »
What I've learned is, depending on the school, this is how people like to donate money:
...
3.  "Come to dinner at X pizza place and the school gets part of the proceeds."  How about instead of spending $50 so that the school gets $7.50, I just give you ten bucks and eat at home?  (This is tricky though, as it also supports a local business that supports the school.)
...
This one drives me nuts - these are posted on FB about once a week in my community, for various fundraisers like the high school girls' volleyball team, or "help buy junior's family a wheelchair van."  Even if the entire community turns out and spends $5k on sub sandwiches or pizza or whatever that night, junior's family only ends up with $500 for their new van.  I like a variation on your idea better: Each family that wants to participate buys a Costco pizza for their dinner for $10 and then gives $40 to the charity.  A much better split, IMO.

I write a check to my kids' PTAs in the beginning of school year with a note that says "Please considered the enclosed money a donation in lieu of participation in fundraisers".   

I help with events at the school and donate time as well, but do not help with much fundraising and refuse to buy anything related to them.   It has worked well for years and most PTA treasurers and presidents have thanked me since most parents just refuse to participate or give anything.
Yep.  We love you guys.

My kindergartner's best friend this year - the only mom on the playground older than me! - asked me what kind of donation would be the "guilt-free, leave me alone!" number.  I told her how much we donate (I do volunteer too, but I'm a sucker.) 

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4647 on: July 15, 2018, 04:09:04 PM »
It's absolutely the banana charities I have a problem with - my beef being with sponsorship, not with events. And it's partly because I do think it's something for nothing. "Sponsor me to hop a thousand times!" Why? Why should I give you money for hopping? What do I get out of it? Nothing. So you might as well ask me donate based on the charity's need and merits and not bother with the hopping.

You are looking at it from a donor perspective. I tend to look at it from a programmatic perspective. Neither perspective is inherently "right" or "wrong" it just depends on where a person is standing.

My experience is that when a group of people help to raise the money they collectively benefit from, their attitude toward the resources is different from their attitude if they don't have to do anything to earn the money and it just falls from the sky.

In youth sports in the United States and Canada, there's a bit of a jock entitlement attitude that creeps in when all the kids have to do is show up and enjoy the results of someone else's effort. The mentality is: "I'm so good, people pay just for me to show up." They start thinking of themselves as mini-professionals, and the "more talented" ones tend to take it to an extreme. It fosters a certain arrogance toward the volunteers and other people who make it possible. Requiring them to hop a thousand times, for example, or to participate in some other annoying and meaningless or even painful task, gives them a sense of ownership in the organization and helps them better appreciate the new jerseys or whatever else they're buying. It also makes them less obnoxious.

Hence the banana.

Raymond Reddington

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4648 on: July 15, 2018, 06:33:17 PM »
It's absolutely the banana charities I have a problem with - my beef being with sponsorship, not with events. And it's partly because I do think it's something for nothing. "Sponsor me to hop a thousand times!" Why? Why should I give you money for hopping? What do I get out of it? Nothing. So you might as well ask me donate based on the charity's need and merits and not bother with the hopping.

You are looking at it from a donor perspective. I tend to look at it from a programmatic perspective. Neither perspective is inherently "right" or "wrong" it just depends on where a person is standing.

My experience is that when a group of people help to raise the money they collectively benefit from, their attitude toward the resources is different from their attitude if they don't have to do anything to earn the money and it just falls from the sky.

In youth sports in the United States and Canada, there's a bit of a jock entitlement attitude that creeps in when all the kids have to do is show up and enjoy the results of someone else's effort. The mentality is: "I'm so good, people pay just for me to show up." They start thinking of themselves as mini-professionals, and the "more talented" ones tend to take it to an extreme. It fosters a certain arrogance toward the volunteers and other people who make it possible. Requiring them to hop a thousand times, for example, or to participate in some other annoying and meaningless or even painful task, gives them a sense of ownership in the organization and helps them better appreciate the new jerseys or whatever else they're buying. It also makes them less obnoxious.

Hence the banana.

I generally agree that athletes in today's culture are entitled, but that it could be mitigated better than by making them sell candy in the subway, run in circles, or some of the other things they've been asked to do.

IMO the entitlement in today's athletes stems from:
-Parents' refusal to enforce basic adult behavior on the field, even in small kids. That means you carry your equipment, that means you hustle, you support your teammates, and (most important) the parents do not undermine the coach by crying about playing time. Failure to do any of those things results in punishment, which has to be tailored for the kid. Maybe making fun of a poor kid's glove means the kid's glove is confiscated and he has to play with a crappy glove, or maybe it means he sits out a game. Arguing with the ref or ump means a suspension. Getting benched by the coach means not entertaining the whining when the kid comes home upset he didn't play much. Parents are the biggest influence on their kids, and in sports, this has become outrageous. Kids need to learn how to fail, and how to recover from it. And they need to be kids. They don't need to be playing the sports the parents think they'll go pro in 12 months out of the year. If anything, that just increases the risk of a serious injury as muscles need time in the offseason to recover.
-The cultural phenomenon created by ESPN and other media stations where the focus is always on who is next. This has led to the mass marketing of college athletics, and even high school athletics, which, always popular in some circles, have now become a national excuse to gamble. This exploits the unpaid labor of the athletes, while also providing them with a sense of entitlement that they should not have at this fragile point in their working and earning careers by sticking cameras in their face, asking them about political events in society, and televising their decisions on where to go to school/play, as well as hyping them so much that even the most humble athlete starts to get a big head. This is coupled with the failure of most leagues to provide enough good and repeated information on personal finance once the player turns pro, that many get in trouble. Given the amounts of money owners and leagues are raking in from inflated ticket prices and media contracts, there is certainly more that can be done here. Personally, I find it impossible to root for *any* spoiled athlete. I understand their motivation to monetize their career as much as possible, but it's more how they react to adversity, their status with our laws, etc. that if they cross a line, I just can't root for them.
-Participation trophies have weakened the sense of accomplishment among younger kids especially. Many kids are even embarrassed to receive them.

You see this in many high school and college athletes as well, who DON'T go on to have the same success, yet it's rarely talked about. The values of sports as a pursuit for children is that they instill values of teamwork, cooperation, sportsmanship, working towards a goal, preparation, and performance under pressure. We've gotten away from that, and a lot of the uncivil behavior and win at all costs mentality, IMO, is as a result of kids who were taught the opposite values growing up.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4649 on: July 15, 2018, 09:01:18 PM »

I generally agree that athletes in today's culture are entitled,

I think they've been that way for quite some generations.   It's nothing new.   

Until US society values learning and kindness more than the ability to carry a piece of dead pig across a field, it will stay that way.