Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 3478875 times)

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4550 on: May 27, 2018, 02:23:02 AM »
Yes, those are like the "zero lot line" homes we have here. Very consistent in style, very small lot, tiny driveway. It is like apartment living but looks like a house. Generally close to the city core. I have heard houses up north described as row houses.

I see the appeal but with kids, critters and projects I want a yard.

The NL is a tiny country, so land is extremely expensive. These are large family homes by our standards.

The lots are probably around 1400 sq. ft. and most of the space is indeed taken up by the house/driveway. The yards are tiny. The lot my 1940s house is on is 1200 sq. ft, but our yard is 400-500 sq. ft. A guy I know lives in one of the streets I posted, his home cost half a million and he nearly fainted when he saw how big our yard is compared to his.

If land is so costly, I don't understand why they don't build more apartments rather than houses on tiny lots.  Here in Italy, virtually everyone lives in an apartment - including in small towns.  This means that cities are nice and company and the countryside remains countryside for the most part.  Also, it's a lot cheaper for all involved and more environmentally friendly.

I don't get it either. There are few family-sized apartments on the market, but they could be built and it would be a much more efficient use of limited space. People just want to live in a house they own. They don't want to rent or live in an apartment. And those people elect the government so nothing ever changes.

There's quite a bunch of apartments too and many more are built (at least over here in the northern NL!). I do agree however that many people with families prefer to live in houses vs apartments. I don't understand why either. On the other hand, when they started mass-building apartments in the South Eastern parts of Amsterdam (Bijlmer) this wasn't a big success during many years as the buildings were ugly and and the neighbourhoods were generally full of poor people. Now it's supposed to be a lot better - but I haven't lived nor have friends in this area so no first-hand experience. Another downside of apartments is not having your own garden and just having upper/lower neighbours in general.

I don't mind all of this, but I do indeed have plenty of friends who don't get why I don't want to buy a house (like I have the money for it in the first place :p). They also all prefer newly built houses. I just nod and smile, nod and smile.

Plenty of small apartments over here (studio or 1 bedroom) and a few of those ugly 1960s tower blocks - although people live there with large families sometimes I don't really get the impression they are all that big. I guess the developers could have expected the negative image - if you only allow people with low incomes to live in one type of building, of course there's going to be a stigma. They are building a very modern towerblock with true family-sized apartments in my city this year, I think that's the first development of that kind in this city. It's in an expat neighbourhood, that's probably the best location for an experiment like that.

@former player I'd never thought about it that way, and I minored in cultural history! Thanks for the insight. To add to that, urbanisation was low in NL until the late 19th century (I think 30% in 1850 or something) so by the time people moved to the cities the medieval walls had collapsed and the surrounding countryside was safe to live in. Some of the moats survived until the 20th century though, my grandparents remember them. I live about 1 km outside of the medieval boundaries and this area was open field until the 40s. There are some policies now to protect the remaining green areas.

@Hula Hoop I've never been to Italy, but when I think of Italy I think of apartment buildings. Might be because of Una giornata particolare and the Neapolitan Novels. I will be visiting soon though  - my s/o is there for work now and he sends me beautiful pictures. It will probably be our next holiday destination. I live in exactly the kind of rowhouse you describe. I love having a garden, but most of my neighbours never go outside and use their gardens as a rubbish dump.

Hula Hoop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1762
  • Location: Italy
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4551 on: May 27, 2018, 07:09:07 AM »
Imma  - the city walls in most Italian cities, including ours, are massive - several meters thick - with watch towers all along them and only a few gates where you can enter the city.  They are also very ancient.  I can't imagine how they could just collapse.  Maybe Dutch cities didn't have the same kind of city walls - or were they pulled down?

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8724
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4552 on: May 27, 2018, 07:21:33 AM »
@Imma - I didn't know about moats around towns in the Netherlands (although it obviously makes sense), so I think we're even in new insights - thanks.

Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5854
  • Age: 16
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4553 on: May 27, 2018, 09:58:03 AM »
To me, there's a big difference between a massive tower block with twenty floors and a nice four-floor Parisian apartment building. One feels uncomfortably large and dominates hideously. The other is a pleasant and sensible use of square footage.
Agreed, Paris got housing right (thanks, Haussmann!) by achieving high density without the ugly patchwork of shapes and sizes found in many cities. Capping everyone at 4-6 floors ensures natural light for everyone and prevents huge buildings from sticking out.

As much as I love London's west end, it's a disaster for density and affordability.

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4554 on: May 27, 2018, 10:42:54 AM »
Imma  - the city walls in most Italian cities, including ours, are massive - several meters thick - with watch towers all along them and only a few gates where you can enter the city.  They are also very ancient.  I can't imagine how they could just collapse.  Maybe Dutch cities didn't have the same kind of city walls - or were they pulled down?

I think the medieval city would have looked a lot like those in other places in Europe, with walls, moat, gates and a castle, but it was not a very big city then, so they might not have been as strong as those in major cities. During the very long independence war the city was attacked and destroyed several times and on top of that it was destroyed by fire more than once.

After the independence war the country fell into a century of severe economic decline, so I guess at some point the population just couldn't keep up with the maintenance anymore and it gradually fell into disrepair. I have been told parts collapsed, but that's just oral history. I have no idea if that's true, but I can see it happening. There are no traces of the medieval town above the ground now.

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6693
  • Location: In the middle....
  • Teach me something.
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4555 on: June 11, 2018, 10:01:04 AM »
I think construction materials is part of the equation. All of the duplexes and apartments I have lived in here in the USA were less than optimal b/c they were cheaply made of wood and thus alot of noise traveled through the walls and floors. The neighbors thumping around at all hours was noticeable (walking heavily).

The Italian house I rented near Naples for several years was all concrete and we hardly ever heard the neighbors. My inlaws here in the USA have a zero lot line "house" which shares walls with the neighbors. Combination concrete slab and wooden walls. Never any noise from the neighbors.

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8569
  • Location: Norway
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4556 on: June 11, 2018, 11:57:14 AM »
Imma  - the city walls in most Italian cities, including ours, are massive - several meters thick - with watch towers all along them and only a few gates where you can enter the city.  They are also very ancient.  I can't imagine how they could just collapse.  Maybe Dutch cities didn't have the same kind of city walls - or were they pulled down?

I think the medieval city would have looked a lot like those in other places in Europe, with walls, moat, gates and a castle, but it was not a very big city then, so they might not have been as strong as those in major cities. During the very long independence war the city was attacked and destroyed several times and on top of that it was destroyed by fire more than once.

After the independence war the country fell into a century of severe economic decline, so I guess at some point the population just couldn't keep up with the maintenance anymore and it gradually fell into disrepair. I have been told parts collapsed, but that's just oral history. I have no idea if that's true, but I can see it happening. There are no traces of the medieval town above the ground now.

I think that in many cases cities have been modernized. The walls were replaced by more modern buildings without realizing the old stuff had a value. You can see that some towns have kept their old style, like e.g. Brugge in Belgium, because the towns became less populair to live in. I think the harbour in Brugge lost it's value. Therefore the city was never modernized completely.

In the past they also sometimes reused building materials. Some old style Norwegian wooden churches disappeared that way.

AlanStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3166
  • Age: 44
  • Location: South East Virginia
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4557 on: June 11, 2018, 01:20:02 PM »
...

I think that in many cases cities have been modernized. The walls were replaced by more modern buildings without realizing the old stuff had a value. You can see that some towns have kept their old style, like e.g. Brugge in Belgium, because the towns became less populair to live in. I think the harbour in Brugge lost it's value. Therefore the city was never modernized completely.

In the past they also sometimes reused building materials. Some old style Norwegian wooden churches disappeared that way.

Brugge Belgium.  Very cool looking place, well worth a few minutes exploring on google maps/street view.  Thanks.

merula

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1609
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4558 on: June 11, 2018, 01:23:34 PM »
Brugge Belgium.  Very cool looking place, well worth a few minutes exploring on google maps/street view.  Thanks.

For more views of Brugge/Bruges, see the movie In Bruges (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780536/). (Fair warning: it's not nearly as idyllic a movie as its setting would suggest. But it is very good.)

Catbert

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3288
  • Location: Southern California
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4559 on: June 15, 2018, 10:35:25 AM »
Brugge Belgium.  Very cool looking place, well worth a few minutes exploring on google maps/street view.  Thanks.

For more views of Brugge/Bruges, see the movie In Bruges (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780536/). (Fair warning: it's not nearly as idyllic a movie as its setting would suggest. But it is very good.)

Great funny movie (if the violence of a black comedy doesn't turn you off).  Added Bruges to our someday list when we saw it 10 years ago.  Finally going next year as part of an Amsterdam trip.

iris lily

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5657
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4560 on: June 15, 2018, 06:59:26 PM »
Brugge Belgium.  Very cool looking place, well worth a few minutes exploring on google maps/street view.  Thanks.

For more views of Brugge/Bruges, see the movie In Bruges (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780536/). (Fair warning: it's not nearly as idyllic a movie as its setting would suggest. But it is very good.)
god
I love that film! It is on my top 20 list.

financialfreedomsloth

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 198
  • Location: Belgium
    • financial freedom sloth
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4561 on: June 16, 2018, 04:28:45 AM »
Brugge Belgium.  Very cool looking place, well worth a few minutes exploring on google maps/street view.  Thanks.

For more views of Brugge/Bruges, see the movie In Bruges (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780536/). (Fair warning: it's not nearly as idyllic a movie as its setting would suggest. But it is very good.)

Great funny movie (if the violence of a black comedy doesn't turn you off).  Added Bruges to our someday list when we saw it 10 years ago.  Finally going next year as part of an Amsterdam trip.

Add ghent to the list too. Where Brugge can give off an 'open museum' type off feeling Ghent has old and new parts and is much more a living, breathing city (source: lived there for 20 years).

TexasStash

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 97
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4562 on: June 17, 2018, 08:06:20 AM »
So much foam. Interesting foam, to be sure.

Siebrie

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 144
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4563 on: June 18, 2018, 04:06:29 AM »
The Dutch didn't build walls to defend their cities, they built dykes (with walls on top) :) and they used water (canals, moats, swamps) to deter their enemies. See the city of Bourtange as a prime example of this.

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4564 on: June 18, 2018, 12:07:47 PM »
The Dutch didn't build walls to defend their cities, they built dykes (with walls on top) :) and they used water (canals, moats, swamps) to deter their enemies. See the city of Bourtange as a prime example of this.

I was always taught in school that my city used to look like this around 1450: http://www.eindhoven-in-beeld.nl/images/eb-eindhoven/31880.jpg

I'm not an expert in medieval history, but that's what I mean by walls. I think at some point the city also had the classic star fort shape like Bourtange, but there was only a small ditch surrounding the city, not a large moat like Bourtange and similar places. I think Maastricht, Nijmegen, Grave and 's-Hertogenbosch all had actual walls, probably combined with dykes, a star fort and lots of water. The old citadel in 's-Hertogenbosch is now an archive, it's a really inspiring place to do research in.

Hula Hoop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1762
  • Location: Italy
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4565 on: June 18, 2018, 01:42:57 PM »
Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?

2Cent

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 744
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4566 on: June 19, 2018, 09:43:45 AM »
Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?
It was bombed in WW2. First by the British, then by the Germans during operation Market Garden.

Hula Hoop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1762
  • Location: Italy
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4567 on: June 19, 2018, 01:36:57 PM »
Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?
It was bombed in WW2. First by the British, then by the Germans during operation Market Garden.

Ahhh that explains it.  What a shame. 

Threshkin

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1088
  • Location: Colorado
    • My Journal
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4568 on: June 19, 2018, 07:21:48 PM »
Brugge Belgium.  Very cool looking place, well worth a few minutes exploring on google maps/street view.  Thanks.

For more views of Brugge/Bruges, see the movie In Bruges (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780536/). (Fair warning: it's not nearly as idyllic a movie as its setting would suggest. But it is very good.)
god
I love that film! It is on my top 20 list.
We watched this movie on Father's Day based on this thread.
The movie was good, better than the second feature, The Lost City of Z.
Both from the library and snuggling in the couch for a few hours was much better than going out.

Imma

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3193
  • Location: Europe
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4569 on: June 21, 2018, 02:08:17 PM »
Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?
It was bombed in WW2. First by the British, then by the Germans during operation Market Garden.

Ahhh that explains it.  What a shame.

It was all gone long before that. The city was destroyed several times (by fire and war) in the middle ages and early modern age, and never completely rebuilt. In the 1880s a law was passed that allowed all cities to demolish their outdated defensive structures and many cities did. We like clean and fresh and new and modern in this country, not old stuff. My grandparents remember the ditches that were the last remnant of the old moat (20s/30s).  The citiy was completely destroyed in WWII and we used that occasion to start over with a clean slate: even the street plan was changed.

Hula Hoop

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1762
  • Location: Italy
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4570 on: June 21, 2018, 03:20:59 PM »
Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?
It was bombed in WW2. First by the British, then by the Germans during operation Market Garden.

Ahhh that explains it.  What a shame.

It was all gone long before that. The city was destroyed several times (by fire and war) in the middle ages and early modern age, and never completely rebuilt. In the 1880s a law was passed that allowed all cities to demolish their outdated defensive structures and many cities did. We like clean and fresh and new and modern in this country, not old stuff. My grandparents remember the ditches that were the last remnant of the old moat (20s/30s).  The citiy was completely destroyed in WWII and we used that occasion to start over with a clean slate: even the street plan was changed.

That's so sad.  But I guess that explains why so many Dutch people love Italy.  Around here, they like to preserve old stuff and traditions. 

Hash Brown

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 213
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4571 on: July 02, 2018, 02:17:58 PM »
There has been an unfortunate return to wood apartment construction all over the United States, plus the quality of wood has gone down dramatically since WWII since the old growth forests are gone and everything's built out of fast-growing pine.  I own a brick home from 1914 that has old-growth pine joists and flooring, and the quality is much higher than today's pine, although very low-quality compared to the old-growth wood in the better homes and apartments from the 1800s and early 1900s. 

It's little known that the eastern United States sold off much of its old hardwood to the Caribbean in the 1700s and 1800s, because the islands were settled much earlier and were quickly denuded of whatever hardwood existed there.  Much was also sold to England and Ireland after they chopped down their last good trees.  And sadly...much of this was simply burnt for fuel and does not survive in structures that still stand. 


   

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20709
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4572 on: July 02, 2018, 06:15:19 PM »
There has been an unfortunate return to wood apartment construction all over the United States, plus the quality of wood has gone down dramatically since WWII since the old growth forests are gone and everything's built out of fast-growing pine.  I own a brick home from 1914 that has old-growth pine joists and flooring, and the quality is much higher than today's pine, although very low-quality compared to the old-growth wood in the better homes and apartments from the 1800s and early 1900s. 

It's little known that the eastern United States sold off much of its old hardwood to the Caribbean in the 1700s and 1800s, because the islands were settled much earlier and were quickly denuded of whatever hardwood existed there.  Much was also sold to England and Ireland after they chopped down their last good trees.  And sadly...much of this was simply burnt for fuel and does not survive in structures that still stand. 


A lot of eastern Canada's old growth forests were pine.  It made great masts and spars.   The forests we think are old growth forests are relatively young.

BlueHouse

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4132
  • Location: WDC
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4573 on: July 03, 2018, 01:30:04 PM »
My niece is living with me for the summer.  A few years ago, I hosted her brother.  Completely different issues, but same root cause.  Niece is 20, in college, and lives 100% off her parents (except for the part I pay for).  She's staying with me because I got her a job (her first ever), as an unpaid intern.  She takes uber to work every day.  She buys lunch out.  She eats most dinners out.  She gets mani/pedis on a regular basis.  She joins expensive gyms.  She charges everything to credit cards, which her parents pay (they are comfortable, but they still need to work to afford shit).  She really has no concept of how much it costs to just live on your own.  Her school loans are expected to be ~$200K.   

She will probably float through life and find someone else to pay her loans.  I don't even really resent it that much.  I just hope that she really can float, because I'm sure as hell not paying those school loans down while she gets massages and pedicures that I won't even treat myself to.

Hash Brown

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 213
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4574 on: July 03, 2018, 04:00:50 PM »
My niece is living with me for the summer.  A few years ago, I hosted her brother.  Completely different issues, but same root cause.  Niece is 20, in college, and lives 100% off her parents (except for the part I pay for).  She's staying with me because I got her a job (her first ever), as an unpaid intern.  She takes uber to work every day.  She buys lunch out.  She eats most dinners out.  She gets mani/pedis on a regular basis.  She joins expensive gyms.  She charges everything to credit cards, which her parents pay (they are comfortable, but they still need to work to afford shit).  She really has no concept of how much it costs to just live on your own.  Her school loans are expected to be ~$200K.   

She will probably float through life and find someone else to pay her loans.  I don't even really resent it that much.  I just hope that she really can float, because I'm sure as hell not paying those school loans down while she gets massages and pedicures that I won't even treat myself to.

Yeah imagine a first date with a woman like this when you've been stuck working crap part-time jobs to accelerate FI. 

About two years ago I met a girl who was about 28 at a party.  We walked out together but then things deteriorated when I mentioned that I usually work at a restaurant on the weekends.  Her complexion changed and she started treating me like a little kid and bragging about how she makes "$100/hr in my pajamas" before parting ways a few minutes later. 

I am friends with her friends and word will eventually reach her if it didn't already that I made $100k in 2017 in real estate speculation enabled by that restaurant job. 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 04:05:25 PM by jmecklenborg »

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8569
  • Location: Norway
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4575 on: July 04, 2018, 01:53:12 AM »
My niece is living with me for the summer.  A few years ago, I hosted her brother.  Completely different issues, but same root cause.  Niece is 20, in college, and lives 100% off her parents (except for the part I pay for).  She's staying with me because I got her a job (her first ever), as an unpaid intern.  She takes uber to work every day.  She buys lunch out.  She eats most dinners out.  She gets mani/pedis on a regular basis.  She joins expensive gyms.  She charges everything to credit cards, which her parents pay (they are comfortable, but they still need to work to afford shit).  She really has no concept of how much it costs to just live on your own.  Her school loans are expected to be ~$200K.   

She will probably float through life and find someone else to pay her loans.  I don't even really resent it that much.  I just hope that she really can float, because I'm sure as hell not paying those school loans down while she gets massages and pedicures that I won't even treat myself to.

Then you have the whole summer to tell her some of your story. Maybe she'll remember it in a few years time when her credit card bills pile up...

9-Volt

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 36
  • Location: Vancouver B.C.
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4576 on: July 04, 2018, 10:32:53 AM »
My sister in law just got her forth gym membership. Two regular ones, a Hit and yoga. She also has a more than adequate gym in her garage. She has been paying for the two and the Hit for years and only goes to yoga.

Scotts

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4577 on: July 04, 2018, 12:12:48 PM »
Yeah imagine a first date with a woman like this when you've been stuck working crap part-time jobs to accelerate FI. 

About two years ago I met a girl who was about 28 at a party.  We walked out together but then things deteriorated when I mentioned that I usually work at a restaurant on the weekends.  Her complexion changed and she started treating me like a little kid and bragging about how she makes "$100/hr in my pajamas" before parting ways a few minutes later. 

I am friends with her friends and word will eventually reach her if it didn't already that I made $100k in 2017 in real estate speculation enabled by that restaurant job.

I can imagine that when the news reached her you may hear from her then.

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8944
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4578 on: July 04, 2018, 05:14:56 PM »
Yeah imagine a first date with a woman like this when you've been stuck working crap part-time jobs to accelerate FI. 

About two years ago I met a girl who was about 28 at a party.  We walked out together but then things deteriorated when I mentioned that I usually work at a restaurant on the weekends.  Her complexion changed and she started treating me like a little kid and bragging about how she makes "$100/hr in my pajamas" before parting ways a few minutes later. 

I am friends with her friends and word will eventually reach her if it didn't already that I made $100k in 2017 in real estate speculation enabled by that restaurant job.

I suspect I might have made a statement along the lines of "Oh, I didn't realize you were in a line of work where you perform services for your clients in your bedroom attire.   $100 per hour is pretty cheap for that work, isn't it?"


Be glad you dodged that bullet.   Definitely not a keeper.

Hash Brown

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 213
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4579 on: July 04, 2018, 09:39:00 PM »
I suspect I might have made a statement along the lines of "Oh, I didn't realize you were in a line of work where you perform services for your clients in your bedroom attire.   $100 per hour is pretty cheap for that work, isn't it?"


I kept it out of the original post but she claimed that she makes that much doing freelance grant writing.  I believe she started doing grant writing while working for a non-profit and then was able to attract freelance work. 

I rarely say this out loud in real life but I've made about $200,000 working part-time at a restaurant on top of my full-time job since graduating from college.  I think most of my relatives are completely baffled by my continued weekend work (and they don't like my little house) but will disapprove if I retire at age 45. 

I should add that I lucked out completely with a low-tech lot flipping scheme...the area improved much faster than I anticipated.  My relatives and coworkers made fun of me for paying close attention to property in "bad" neighborhoods but I'm having the last laugh.  Many people in my area were so blinded by old-fashioned pro-suburb anti-city bias but now they're red in the face because some people made out like bandits when the historic neighborhoods near public housing went from worst to first. 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 09:54:37 PM by jmecklenborg »

BMW Jalopy

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Nevada
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4580 on: July 09, 2018, 03:37:21 PM »
I've been puzzled for a long time about my dad. He has been working as a [let's say podiatrist for anonymity] for 50 years (still at it @ 80+), lives frugally in a paid off house, yet never seems to have any money saved up. Just figured it out, whenever he has more than his monthly bills, he gives the money to Jesus. So much for any inheritance, but it's his money to do with whatever he wants. I just hope he isn't looking to me to fund his long term care.

Raymond Reddington

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 200
  • Age: 2019
  • Location: NYC
  • "The Concierge of Cash"
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4581 on: July 09, 2018, 04:24:18 PM »
I have an uncle who inherited a house from my grandmother who was a hoarder and refuses to throw anything out. He's basically been her caretaker for the last 20 years and is too cheap to do anything with his life. Divorced, no kids, no prospects, no hobbies, and just now decided that talking to his ex every once in a while (note: they were together over 25 years ago, and she has since remarried and lives entirely in another part of the country) would be his attempt to be social.

The house is a mess still and would probably be condemned by the local FD, and he has done nothing with whatever "wealth" she had. It's probably all sitting in various checking or savings accounts. He has 3 cars and drives everywhere, even though he has nothing to do except go to doctors and get groceries.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 06:55:00 PM by Raymond Reddington »

SwordGuy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8944
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4582 on: July 09, 2018, 04:33:57 PM »
I suspect I might have made a statement along the lines of "Oh, I didn't realize you were in a line of work where you perform services for your clients in your bedroom attire.   $100 per hour is pretty cheap for that work, isn't it?"


I kept it out of the original post but she claimed that she makes that much doing freelance grant writing.  I believe she started doing grant writing while working for a non-profit and then was able to attract freelance work. 

I rarely say this out loud in real life but I've made about $200,000 working part-time at a restaurant on top of my full-time job since graduating from college.  I think most of my relatives are completely baffled by my continued weekend work (and they don't like my little house) but will disapprove if I retire at age 45. 

I should add that I lucked out completely with a low-tech lot flipping scheme...the area improved much faster than I anticipated.  My relatives and coworkers made fun of me for paying close attention to property in "bad" neighborhoods but I'm having the last laugh.  Many people in my area were so blinded by old-fashioned pro-suburb anti-city bias but now they're red in the face because some people made out like bandits when the historic neighborhoods near public housing went from worst to first.

Very cool!    Kudos to you!

And don't give a damn about your relatives pissing on your FIRE party with their disapproval.   If you get tired of it, remind them that if you had followed their advice about financial plans before, you would still have to work for a living...

Hash Brown

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 213
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4583 on: July 09, 2018, 05:49:34 PM »
And don't give a damn about your relatives pissing on your FIRE party with their disapproval.   If you get tired of it, remind them that if you had followed their advice about financial plans before, you would still have to work for a living...

Yeah we have a family culture that looks dimly on not working.  Even if you have the money to retire, you are expected to still work full-time until 62 or so.

Blackeagle

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 296
  • Location: Ivins, UT
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4584 on: July 09, 2018, 06:45:54 PM »
There has been an unfortunate return to wood apartment construction all over the United States, plus the quality of wood has gone down dramatically since WWII since the old growth forests are gone and everything's built out of fast-growing pine.  I own a brick home from 1914 that has old-growth pine joists and flooring, and the quality is much higher than today's pine, although very low-quality compared to the old-growth wood in the better homes and apartments from the 1800s and early 1900s. 

When my grandfather built his house back in 1950, he built it with oak framing, using lumber from some timber my grandmother's family owned.

TartanTallulah

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 592
  • Location: The Middle of Scenic Nowhere
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4585 on: July 11, 2018, 02:34:27 PM »
My husband has a large extended family and every summer as many of them as possible get together for an informal social event. It's this coming weekend. There's a Facebook group for those attending.

Everyone has been posting things like when they're arriving, where they're staying, what food/drink they're bringing, and how they can't wait to see everyone again.

Except for one cousin. This woman is married for the second time, to a delightful man who has a fat wallet. What she posted was, "We're coming down via (place) and (husband) will be cycling because he can't miss his training for (expensive corporate obstacle race featuring mud). We're doing this gruelling event to raise money for (charity). It's not just us; (four other members of her husband's family) are taking part too. You can make donations via (online giving site) or if you prefer you can give us your donation in person at the weekend.

This event costs £85 a ticket and will result in the destruction of a set of running kit and a pair of shoes per participant. If it was really All About Charity, they could have donated their entry fees and what they're saving by not having to replace ruined kit instead of threatening to spoil the party by rattling a can under people's noses.

We'll be giving them a wide berth.

jinga nation

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2694
  • Age: 247
  • Location: 'Murica's Dong
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4586 on: July 11, 2018, 04:10:32 PM »
My husband has a large extended family and every summer as many of them as possible get together for an informal social event. It's this coming weekend. There's a Facebook group for those attending.

Everyone has been posting things like when they're arriving, where they're staying, what food/drink they're bringing, and how they can't wait to see everyone again.

Except for one cousin. This woman is married for the second time, to a delightful man who has a fat wallet. What she posted was, "We're coming down via (place) and (husband) will be cycling because he can't miss his training for (expensive corporate obstacle race featuring mud). We're doing this gruelling event to raise money for (charity). It's not just us; (four other members of her husband's family) are taking part too. You can make donations via (online giving site) or if you prefer you can give us your donation in person at the weekend.

This event costs £85 a ticket and will result in the destruction of a set of running kit and a pair of shoes per participant. If it was really All About Charity, they could have donated their entry fees and what they're saving by not having to replace ruined kit instead of threatening to spoil the party by rattling a can under people's noses.

We'll be giving them a wide berth.
at least she married a MAMIL. but crass behavior. Better have a 'No Soliciting' sign up at the party. That goes for anyone that tries peddling MLM crap.

AlanStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3166
  • Age: 44
  • Location: South East Virginia
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4587 on: July 11, 2018, 06:31:32 PM »
...
at least she married a MAMIL. but crass behavior. Better have a 'No Soliciting' sign up at the party. That goes for anyone that tries peddling MLM crap.
[/quote]

Had to check but most of my gear is polyester and spandex - I think I am safe from that acronym.

BeautifulDay

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 305
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4588 on: July 11, 2018, 08:09:02 PM »
I've been puzzled for a long time about my dad. He has been working as a [let's say podiatrist for anonymity] for 50 years (still at it @ 80+), lives frugally in a paid off house, yet never seems to have any money saved up. Just figured it out, whenever he has more than his monthly bills, he gives the money to Jesus. So much for any inheritance, but it's his money to do with whatever he wants. I just hope he isn't looking to me to fund his long term care.
This is my parents except in addition to giving to Jesus they also give to freeloading siblings. Dad will work until he dies.  But if that's what he wants, ok.  I'll probably help pay mom's long term care.  She never had much say in any financial matters, so not exactly her fault. Who knows what she might have chosen given actual options.

jengod

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1219
  • Location: Near LAX
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4589 on: July 11, 2018, 08:27:02 PM »
We walked out together but then things deteriorated when I mentioned that I usually work at a restaurant on the weekends.

I have a friend who was horrified that a father at their son's school drives Uber on the weekend. She thought that people of their status should not have to have second jobs and isn't it a shame that the system and all the education debt are so unfair.

I bit my tongue, but I thought it was admirable that the guy was working two jobs to earn whatever money they needed or wanted: paying down that pesky education debt for one thing!


shelivesthedream

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6740
  • Location: London, UK
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4590 on: July 11, 2018, 09:33:47 PM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 22281
  • Age: 66
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4591 on: July 11, 2018, 10:39:44 PM »
Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?
OMG, ROFL!

Taran Wanderer

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1402
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4592 on: July 11, 2018, 11:19:56 PM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

There is a charity bike ride I enjoy doing. It’s not exactly mustachian, and besides the entry fee it requires a fairly hefty “donation”. I just pay the donation because I can’t bring myself to ask people to donate so that I can ride, even if it is 100 miles.

Then again, I never thought about asking people to sponsor me to eat my dinner. Maybe I should try that...

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8569
  • Location: Norway
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4593 on: July 12, 2018, 01:17:46 AM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

I don't like it too. I remember having done this once or twice as a child in primary school, because the whole school did so. I asked the neighbours to sign up. But it is an embarrassing thing to do. And you morally bring people in a difficult position to recline.

jinga nation

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2694
  • Age: 247
  • Location: 'Murica's Dong
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4594 on: July 12, 2018, 05:24:40 AM »
...
at least she married a MAMIL. but crass behavior. Better have a 'No Soliciting' sign up at the party. That goes for anyone that tries peddling MLM crap.

Had to check but most of my gear is polyester and spandex - I think I am safe from that acronym.
[/quote]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandex

Lycra is a brand name for spandex aka elastane.
I'm a Mamil, admittedly, on certain weekends when I sit on my butt and do something with them legs.

Dave1442397

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1636
  • Location: NJ
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4595 on: July 12, 2018, 06:02:38 AM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

There is a charity bike ride I enjoy doing. It’s not exactly mustachian, and besides the entry fee it requires a fairly hefty “donation”. I just pay the donation because I can’t bring myself to ask people to donate so that I can ride, even if it is 100 miles.

Then again, I never thought about asking people to sponsor me to eat my dinner. Maybe I should try that...

I feel the same way about those bike rides. I did a few of them years ago. Not only did I dislike asking people for money, I found that almost everyone I rode with was asking the same group of people for money, which got old in a hurry.

These days, I only do rides where the entry fee is the donation. I did one a few weeks ago that was a last-minute thing, and they were giving out T-shirts after the ride. They didn't have my size, and they were very apologetic about it, offering to special order me the size I needed, etc, because "you paid for the shirt". I said, "No, I donated to your charity - I don't care about the shirt."

Davnasty

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2793
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4596 on: July 12, 2018, 07:39:23 AM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

There is a charity bike ride I enjoy doing. It’s not exactly mustachian, and besides the entry fee it requires a fairly hefty “donation”. I just pay the donation because I can’t bring myself to ask people to donate so that I can ride, even if it is 100 miles.

Then again, I never thought about asking people to sponsor me to eat my dinner. Maybe I should try that...

I feel the same way about those bike rides. I did a few of them years ago. Not only did I dislike asking people for money, I found that almost everyone I rode with was asking the same group of people for money, which got old in a hurry.

These days, I only do rides where the entry fee is the donation. I did one a few weeks ago that was a last-minute thing, and they were giving out T-shirts after the ride. They didn't have my size, and they were very apologetic about it, offering to special order me the size I needed, etc, because "you paid for the shirt". I said, "No, I donated to your charity - I don't care about the shirt."

Free t-shirts from charities are the worst. If I give you $20 to help sick people, why on earth would I want you to turn around and spend a portion of that on a shirt for me. If I wanted a shirt, I would have bought one and given you less money.

I get that the little gifts encourage some people to give, presumably for a net increase in funds, and that the free shirts may act as a sort of advertising, but still. I don't like it.

FatCat

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 244
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4597 on: July 12, 2018, 12:24:19 PM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

I hated it when I was a kid. My school had us do one of those with laps around the city park walking path. They kept saying that we're helping the charity by walking. I thought it was ridiculous to present it like that. Donate money to charity, or go for a walk. Don't act like walking is curing cancer. It also taught me that my family, neighbors, and mom's friends are super tight. Most of them refused, but the ones that agrees all put 1 cent with one person putting a whopping 2 cents per lap. My mom tried to get family to give some more but they said they didn't want to be forced to pay some high amount since I was a high energy kid. So in my time limit of 1 hour I made 5 laps around our city park walking path. One person looked confused I only raised 5 cents off him and gave me a dollar. So if he was willing to give a dollar, why not bid a little more? Did he really think a little kid would run over a hundred laps in an hour? The park was huge.

mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10859
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4598 on: July 12, 2018, 01:58:51 PM »
I seriously object to the sponsorship model of charitable giving. It's kind of cute for children (sponsor me to hop a thousand times!) but ultimately it's ridiculous. If you want to run a marathon, just do it. And if your charity is worthy, people should just give them money (including the money saved on tickets, kit, advertising, etc). It clearly works for the charities but I think it sends the wrong message about both exercise and giving, and really ticks me off. No, you are not entitled to demand that I give you money just because YOU decided to do something. Why don't you sponsor me to eat my dinner?

Ah ha, this is why I was somewhat misplaced at the VP of fundraising for the school PTA.

What I've learned is, depending on the school, this is how people like to donate money:
1.  The jog-a-thon.  It's cute, and I'm glad people do it.
2.  The auction.  Spend hours and hours getting things donated, and then people will bid for them and buy them.   Do I need discounted laser surgery?  Or dinner for 2?
3.  "Come to dinner at X pizza place and the school gets part of the proceeds."  How about instead of spending $50 so that the school gets $7.50, I just give you ten bucks and eat at home?  (This is tricky though, as it also supports a local business that supports the school.)
4. "Party books" - where a couple or a few folks will throw a "party" with a fee to attend.  The people throwing the party pay for it.  The fees for attending go to the school.

I can't be the only one who would rather just write a check?

Aside from just donating money, I do, on occasion, donate to people doing a marathon or bike ride or some such thing for charity.  Because I think it's good for them to go out and run and stuff.  Or whatever.  At least they have to "work" for it.

Raymond Reddington

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 200
  • Age: 2019
  • Location: NYC
  • "The Concierge of Cash"
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #4599 on: July 12, 2018, 02:47:43 PM »
While it's not in the context of schools typically (I don't have kids), I tend to agree.

-The entire purpose of participating in a charitable endeavor is to raise money for the cause. I do not like charitable causes that require people to solicit money from friends or family to participate - you "running" is not raising money for the cause therefore, you are relying on sponsors to do it, and for me that's a no. Just like the whole ALS ice bucket challenge - make a viral sensation on the internet where people actively avoid giving money to charity by instead dumping ice water on themselves.
-Get togethers that waste donated money by the costs, generally detract from the overall mission in my opinion (exception below). T-shirts can be used to successfully market the cause, provided they are produced at low cost, and they advance the cause in a way that is supportive of the cause. Meaning, I cringe when I see T shirts promoting a "1 mile walk for charity" - might as well put "crossing the street for charity" as there's no difficulty involved, and IMO it undermines the charitable cause in many ways, not the least of which is the laughability factor.
-Get togethers can, however, be productive in the context of donors who have reached a certain level participating in an expensive dinner at the location of the charity. These get togethers attract people of considerable means, all of whom are invested in the organization to varying positive degrees, and the opportunity exists to showcase the most recent goings on, how the money is being put to use, and to solicit further donations tastefully in the context of the hospitality extended to donors. However, at this level of giving, it goes way beyond "pay $20 for the school and get a pizza party"

Just my thoughts.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!