Relatives who just don't get it

[markbike528CBX]

What is a Vinex style house?

When I typed in Vinex, Vanguard International Explorer Fund Investor Shares came up.

I spy a MPP (Mustachian People Problem).   

I love using my wife's Ipad occasionally, as the google results are essentially randomized, which can be more fun.

[Linea_Norway]

What is a Vinex style house?

Don't google it, I ended up watching a documentary on Bijlmermeer and Dutch attempts at planning  utopias... It's too easy to fall down rabbitholes on the internet.

:D

Vinex is the name of a law that allowed for large, centrally planned housing developments. They were supposed to be a cheap solution for the housing shortage, but these days those houses are quite expensive.

The houses are usually large, modern, light and cheap to heat and cool, but as they are centrally developed all the houses look the same. This is what it looks like in my city : http://www.lslarchitecten.nl/portfolio/grasrijk-meerhoven

Vinex living has become an aspiration as well as a cliche and is associated with the type of person you were never going to be when you grew up, until you did. A bit like the suburbs in the US.

Exactly what I associate it with. I also think of houses being built closely together with very small gardens. But I haven't lived in NL for a very long time, so my thoughts might be outdated.

[Just Joe]

Yes, those are like the "zero lot line" homes we have here. Very consistent in style, very small lot, tiny driveway. It is like apartment living but looks like a house. Generally close to the city core. I have heard houses up north described as row houses.

I see the appeal but with kids, critters and projects I want a yard.

[markbike528CBX]

I live a town build for the Manhatten Project and all the houses built 1943-1951 are "letter- houses", a-z so while there are relatively few styles, there is some variation.  My house style is most commonly set 45 degrees from the street.   Modifications since building has disguised many of the houses.

[SansSkill]

Happened a while back but I could not convice either my brother or my grandparents that it was not an insane decision to not get insurance.

They agreed that I had enough of a buffer to replace out of pocket whatever was insured.
They agreed that insurance companies aim for profit.
They agreed that insurance companies realize this by making you pay them more than they have to pay you based on risk assement.
They agreed that insurance companies make an equal or better risk assement than us.
They did not agree that not insuring would put me ahead long term.

"But what happens if it breaks?"
"I'll replace it"
"But what happens if it breaks again the week after?"
"I'll replace it again"
"But what happens if it breaks every week?"

Though not the exact wording, I had this actual converstation with my brother.

My grandfather agreed with not insuring while simultaneously he went off on a tangent somewhere during the conversation how we need to read all the fine print because insurance companies are ripping you off and will have you paying for years without paying out. I somehow could not convince him that was an argument in my favour.

[Imma]

Yes, those are like the "zero lot line" homes we have here. Very consistent in style, very small lot, tiny driveway. It is like apartment living but looks like a house. Generally close to the city core. I have heard houses up north described as row houses.

I see the appeal but with kids, critters and projects I want a yard.

The NL is a tiny country, so land is extremely expensive. These are large family homes by our standards.

The lots are probably around 1400 sq. ft. and most of the space is indeed taken up by the house/driveway. The yards are tiny. The lot my 1940s house is on is 1200 sq. ft, but our yard is 400-500 sq. ft. A guy I know lives in one of the streets I posted, his home cost half a million and he nearly fainted when he saw how big our yard is compared to his.

[Linea_Norway]

Happened a while back but I could not convice either my brother or my grandparents that it was not an insane decision to not get insurance.

They agreed that I had enough of a buffer to replace out of pocket whatever was insured.
They agreed that insurance companies aim for profit.
They agreed that insurance companies realize this by making you pay them more than they have to pay you based on risk assement.
They agreed that insurance companies make an equal or better risk assement than us.
They did not agree that not insuring would put me ahead long term.

"But what happens if it breaks?"
"I'll replace it"
"But what happens if it breaks again the week after?"
"I'll replace it again"
"But what happens if it breaks every week?"

Though not the exact wording, I had this actual converstation with my brother.

My grandfather agreed with not insuring while simultaneously he went off on a tangent somewhere during the conversation how we need to read all the fine print because insurance companies are ripping you off and will have you paying for years without paying out. I somehow could not convince him that was an argument in my favour.

Indeed, insurance companies or manufacturers are often trying to sell you a separate insurance for things like an phone or a TV. These things are perfectly covered by your home insurance if you have one.

We also have a car that is not insurance more than the legal insurance to pay back others. It is simply not worth it. If it is totalled, we'll just get another cheap one.

[Roadrunner53]

Yes, everything you buy in the stores they try to sell you insurance on the item. Like a $59 printer. NO, the stupid printer will probably last two years if I am lucky and will just buy a new one when it conks out.

[ketchup]

Yes, everything you buy in the stores they try to sell you insurance on the item. Like a $59 printer. NO, the stupid printer will probably last two years if I am lucky and will just buy a new one when it conks out.

Micro Center is really bad about this.  No, I don't want the $4.99 2-year protection plan on a $16.99 keyboard and mouse set.  Make sure you ask me individually about every item I'm buying though, I know that's your policy.

[Roadrunner53]

Yes, everything you buy in the stores they try to sell you insurance on the item. Like a $59 printer. NO, the stupid printer will probably last two years if I am lucky and will just buy a new one when it conks out.

Micro Center is really bad about this.  No, I don't want the $4.99 2-year protection plan on a $16.99 keyboard and mouse set.  Make sure you ask me individually about every item I'm buying though, I know that's your policy.

I can't even imagine trying to deal with the insurance company if my item would break. It would probably take 3 months and what do you do in the mean time? BUY another one!

[Hula Hoop]

Yes, those are like the "zero lot line" homes we have here. Very consistent in style, very small lot, tiny driveway. It is like apartment living but looks like a house. Generally close to the city core. I have heard houses up north described as row houses.

I see the appeal but with kids, critters and projects I want a yard.

The NL is a tiny country, so land is extremely expensive. These are large family homes by our standards.

The lots are probably around 1400 sq. ft. and most of the space is indeed taken up by the house/driveway. The yards are tiny. The lot my 1940s house is on is 1200 sq. ft, but our yard is 400-500 sq. ft. A guy I know lives in one of the streets I posted, his home cost half a million and he nearly fainted when he saw how big our yard is compared to his.

If land is so costly, I don't understand why they don't build more apartments rather than houses on tiny lots.  Here in Italy, virtually everyone lives in an apartment - including in small towns.  This means that cities are nice and company and the countryside remains countryside for the most part.  Also, it's a lot cheaper for all involved and more environmentally friendly.

[Imma]

Yes, those are like the "zero lot line" homes we have here. Very consistent in style, very small lot, tiny driveway. It is like apartment living but looks like a house. Generally close to the city core. I have heard houses up north described as row houses.

I see the appeal but with kids, critters and projects I want a yard.

The NL is a tiny country, so land is extremely expensive. These are large family homes by our standards.

The lots are probably around 1400 sq. ft. and most of the space is indeed taken up by the house/driveway. The yards are tiny. The lot my 1940s house is on is 1200 sq. ft, but our yard is 400-500 sq. ft. A guy I know lives in one of the streets I posted, his home cost half a million and he nearly fainted when he saw how big our yard is compared to his.

If land is so costly, I don't understand why they don't build more apartments rather than houses on tiny lots.  Here in Italy, virtually everyone lives in an apartment - including in small towns.  This means that cities are nice and company and the countryside remains countryside for the most part.  Also, it's a lot cheaper for all involved and more environmentally friendly.

I don't get it either. There are few family-sized apartments on the market, but they could be built and it would be a much more efficient use of limited space. People just want to live in a house they own. They don't want to rent or live in an apartment. And those people elect the government so nothing ever changes.

[Hula Hoop]

I've been to the Netherlands and I had the impression that most people lived in row houses many with lots of narrow stairs and postage stamp sized paved backyards.  I guess I'm preaching to the choir here but I don't see how that's any better than living in an apartment like ours here in an Italian city.  Our apartment is huge by Italian standards - 150 square meters and it has 4 large rooms (living room plus three bedrooms) so it's definitely family sized.  We bought it about 3 years ago but the building was built more than 100 years ago and is standard in this part of the world.  What I like about living here is that you can drive half an hour and you're out in the country side with farms and sheep because the city is so compact.  If everyone insisted on living in a row house the city would just sprawl forever.  Also living in an apartment on all one level is so much better for old people and disabled people.  I have no idea how old people manage to live in those Dutch row houses with tons of stairs.

Anyway it sounds like maybe apartment living has a "poor person" stigma in the Netherlands especially for a family for whatever reason.  I wonder how that happened when in much of the rest of Europe apartment living is the norm (here in Italy, but also in France and Spain - not sure about other European countries).

[former player]

One of the reasons for the division between house living and apartment living has been the historical need for defensibility.  Towns and cities which were more likely to come under attack needed defensible walls, which usually meant a limited built up area, which meant that as the population expanded the existing buildings had to be divided into separate dwellings, which meant apartments.  Italian cities had defensive concerns until the second half of the nineteenth century by which time apartment living would be well established.

The geography of the Netherlands made defensible walls mostly redundant, so no point huddling together behind them.  And for the opposite reason (very few invasions or infighting in the last several hundred years) there has been little tradition of apartment living in the British Isles until the late nineteenth century when the sheer size of London started it as a trend there.

History affects us all in so many ways which are usually hidden from us.

[Hula Hoop]

FP - fascinating.  Our Italian city has medieval city walls and we live within those walls.  I never really thought about the apartment thing being a product of that.  Anyway, as I said, I like the way Italian cities are so compact as a result.

Sometimes it makes me laugh though. I went to my friend's country place last weekend and it was 1.5 hours on the train from here (about an hour by car).  It was an apartment in a modern apartment complex built in the middle of rolling hills with various crops growing and cows in a field across the road and a 10 minute bike ride from the beach.  I think it's hilarious the way even Italian country cabin type places are usually apartments.  Another family friend has her country place in a medieval hill town near a lake about 45 minutes from here.  It's a two room apartment in a medieval building with a small garden.  only rich foreigners seem to go for those free standing villas in the Italian countryside.  To an Italian, that just seems lonely.

[shelivesthedream]

To me, there's a big difference between a massive tower block with twenty floors and a nice four-floor Parisian apartment building. One feels uncomfortably large and dominates hideously. The other is a pleasant and sensible use of square footage.

[Cassie]

We prefer a home with a yard to apartments.  We like to have dinner parties and barbecues. So need some space to do that. We sit in our backyard every day. It is quieter to live in a home.  Now we have a small house by US standards at 1400 sq ft.  We have a decent size backyard and live right in town so can walk places.

[Imma]

Yes, those are like the "zero lot line" homes we have here. Very consistent in style, very small lot, tiny driveway. It is like apartment living but looks like a house. Generally close to the city core. I have heard houses up north described as row houses.

I see the appeal but with kids, critters and projects I want a yard.

The NL is a tiny country, so land is extremely expensive. These are large family homes by our standards.

The lots are probably around 1400 sq. ft. and most of the space is indeed taken up by the house/driveway. The yards are tiny. The lot my 1940s house is on is 1200 sq. ft, but our yard is 400-500 sq. ft. A guy I know lives in one of the streets I posted, his home cost half a million and he nearly fainted when he saw how big our yard is compared to his.

If land is so costly, I don't understand why they don't build more apartments rather than houses on tiny lots.  Here in Italy, virtually everyone lives in an apartment - including in small towns.  This means that cities are nice and company and the countryside remains countryside for the most part.  Also, it's a lot cheaper for all involved and more environmentally friendly.

I don't get it either. There are few family-sized apartments on the market, but they could be built and it would be a much more efficient use of limited space. People just want to live in a house they own. They don't want to rent or live in an apartment. And those people elect the government so nothing ever changes.

There's quite a bunch of apartments too and many more are built (at least over here in the northern NL!). I do agree however that many people with families prefer to live in houses vs apartments. I don't understand why either. On the other hand, when they started mass-building apartments in the South Eastern parts of Amsterdam (Bijlmer) this wasn't a big success during many years as the buildings were ugly and and the neighbourhoods were generally full of poor people. Now it's supposed to be a lot better - but I haven't lived nor have friends in this area so no first-hand experience. Another downside of apartments is not having your own garden and just having upper/lower neighbours in general.

I don't mind all of this, but I do indeed have plenty of friends who don't get why I don't want to buy a house (like I have the money for it in the first place :p). They also all prefer newly built houses. I just nod and smile, nod and smile.

Plenty of small apartments over here (studio or 1 bedroom) and a few of those ugly 1960s tower blocks - although people live there with large families sometimes I don't really get the impression they are all that big. I guess the developers could have expected the negative image - if you only allow people with low incomes to live in one type of building, of course there's going to be a stigma. They are building a very modern towerblock with true family-sized apartments in my city this year, I think that's the first development of that kind in this city. It's in an expat neighbourhood, that's probably the best location for an experiment like that.

@former player I'd never thought about it that way, and I minored in cultural history! Thanks for the insight. To add to that, urbanisation was low in NL until the late 19th century (I think 30% in 1850 or something) so by the time people moved to the cities the medieval walls had collapsed and the surrounding countryside was safe to live in. Some of the moats survived until the 20th century though, my grandparents remember them. I live about 1 km outside of the medieval boundaries and this area was open field until the 40s. There are some policies now to protect the remaining green areas.

@Hula Hoop I've never been to Italy, but when I think of Italy I think of apartment buildings. Might be because of Una giornata particolare and the Neapolitan Novels. I will be visiting soon though  - my s/o is there for work now and he sends me beautiful pictures. It will probably be our next holiday destination. I live in exactly the kind of rowhouse you describe. I love having a garden, but most of my neighbours never go outside and use their gardens as a rubbish dump.

[Hula Hoop]

Imma  - the city walls in most Italian cities, including ours, are massive - several meters thick - with watch towers all along them and only a few gates where you can enter the city.  They are also very ancient.  I can't imagine how they could just collapse.  Maybe Dutch cities didn't have the same kind of city walls - or were they pulled down?

[former player]

@Imma - I didn't know about moats around towns in the Netherlands (although it obviously makes sense), so I think we're even in new insights - thanks.

[Paul der Krake]

To me, there's a big difference between a massive tower block with twenty floors and a nice four-floor Parisian apartment building. One feels uncomfortably large and dominates hideously. The other is a pleasant and sensible use of square footage.

Agreed, Paris got housing right (thanks, Haussmann!) by achieving high density without the ugly patchwork of shapes and sizes found in many cities. Capping everyone at 4-6 floors ensures natural light for everyone and prevents huge buildings from sticking out.

As much as I love London's west end, it's a disaster for density and affordability.

[Imma]

Imma  - the city walls in most Italian cities, including ours, are massive - several meters thick - with watch towers all along them and only a few gates where you can enter the city.  They are also very ancient.  I can't imagine how they could just collapse.  Maybe Dutch cities didn't have the same kind of city walls - or were they pulled down?

I think the medieval city would have looked a lot like those in other places in Europe, with walls, moat, gates and a castle, but it was not a very big city then, so they might not have been as strong as those in major cities. During the very long independence war the city was attacked and destroyed several times and on top of that it was destroyed by fire more than once.

After the independence war the country fell into a century of severe economic decline, so I guess at some point the population just couldn't keep up with the maintenance anymore and it gradually fell into disrepair. I have been told parts collapsed, but that's just oral history. I have no idea if that's true, but I can see it happening. There are no traces of the medieval town above the ground now.

[Just Joe]

I think construction materials is part of the equation. All of the duplexes and apartments I have lived in here in the USA were less than optimal b/c they were cheaply made of wood and thus alot of noise traveled through the walls and floors. The neighbors thumping around at all hours was noticeable (walking heavily).

The Italian house I rented near Naples for several years was all concrete and we hardly ever heard the neighbors. My inlaws here in the USA have a zero lot line "house" which shares walls with the neighbors. Combination concrete slab and wooden walls. Never any noise from the neighbors.

[Linea_Norway]

Imma  - the city walls in most Italian cities, including ours, are massive - several meters thick - with watch towers all along them and only a few gates where you can enter the city.  They are also very ancient.  I can't imagine how they could just collapse.  Maybe Dutch cities didn't have the same kind of city walls - or were they pulled down?

I think the medieval city would have looked a lot like those in other places in Europe, with walls, moat, gates and a castle, but it was not a very big city then, so they might not have been as strong as those in major cities. During the very long independence war the city was attacked and destroyed several times and on top of that it was destroyed by fire more than once.

After the independence war the country fell into a century of severe economic decline, so I guess at some point the population just couldn't keep up with the maintenance anymore and it gradually fell into disrepair. I have been told parts collapsed, but that's just oral history. I have no idea if that's true, but I can see it happening. There are no traces of the medieval town above the ground now.

I think that in many cases cities have been modernized. The walls were replaced by more modern buildings without realizing the old stuff had a value. You can see that some towns have kept their old style, like e.g. Brugge in Belgium, because the towns became less populair to live in. I think the harbour in Brugge lost it's value. Therefore the city was never modernized completely.

In the past they also sometimes reused building materials. Some old style Norwegian wooden churches disappeared that way.

[AlanStache]

...

I think that in many cases cities have been modernized. The walls were replaced by more modern buildings without realizing the old stuff had a value. You can see that some towns have kept their old style, like e.g. Brugge in Belgium, because the towns became less populair to live in. I think the harbour in Brugge lost it's value. Therefore the city was never modernized completely.

In the past they also sometimes reused building materials. Some old style Norwegian wooden churches disappeared that way.

Brugge Belgium.  Very cool looking place, well worth a few minutes exploring on google maps/street view.  Thanks.

[merula]

Brugge Belgium.  Very cool looking place, well worth a few minutes exploring on google maps/street view.  Thanks.

For more views of Brugge/Bruges, see the movie In Bruges (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780536/). (Fair warning: it's not nearly as idyllic a movie as its setting would suggest. But it is very good.)

[Catbert]

Brugge Belgium.  Very cool looking place, well worth a few minutes exploring on google maps/street view.  Thanks.

For more views of Brugge/Bruges, see the movie In Bruges (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780536/). (Fair warning: it's not nearly as idyllic a movie as its setting would suggest. But it is very good.)

Great funny movie (if the violence of a black comedy doesn't turn you off).  Added Bruges to our someday list when we saw it 10 years ago.  Finally going next year as part of an Amsterdam trip.

[iris lily]

Brugge Belgium.  Very cool looking place, well worth a few minutes exploring on google maps/street view.  Thanks.

For more views of Brugge/Bruges, see the movie In Bruges (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780536/). (Fair warning: it's not nearly as idyllic a movie as its setting would suggest. But it is very good.)

god
I love that film! It is on my top 20 list.

[financialfreedomsloth]

Brugge Belgium.  Very cool looking place, well worth a few minutes exploring on google maps/street view.  Thanks.

For more views of Brugge/Bruges, see the movie In Bruges (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780536/). (Fair warning: it's not nearly as idyllic a movie as its setting would suggest. But it is very good.)

Great funny movie (if the violence of a black comedy doesn't turn you off).  Added Bruges to our someday list when we saw it 10 years ago.  Finally going next year as part of an Amsterdam trip.

Add ghent to the list too. Where Brugge can give off an 'open museum' type off feeling Ghent has old and new parts and is much more a living, breathing city (source: lived there for 20 years).

[TexasStash]

So much foam. Interesting foam, to be sure.

[Siebrie]

The Dutch didn't build walls to defend their cities, they built dykes (with walls on top) :) and they used water (canals, moats, swamps) to deter their enemies. See the city of Bourtange as a prime example of this.

[Imma]

The Dutch didn't build walls to defend their cities, they built dykes (with walls on top) :) and they used water (canals, moats, swamps) to deter their enemies. See the city of Bourtange as a prime example of this.

I was always taught in school that my city used to look like this around 1450: http://www.eindhoven-in-beeld.nl/images/eb-eindhoven/31880.jpg

I'm not an expert in medieval history, but that's what I mean by walls. I think at some point the city also had the classic star fort shape like Bourtange, but there was only a small ditch surrounding the city, not a large moat like Bourtange and similar places. I think Maastricht, Nijmegen, Grave and 's-Hertogenbosch all had actual walls, probably combined with dykes, a star fort and lots of water. The old citadel in 's-Hertogenbosch is now an archive, it's a really inspiring place to do research in.

[Hula Hoop]

Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?

[2Cent]

Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?

It was bombed in WW2. First by the British, then by the Germans during operation Market Garden.

[Hula Hoop]

Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?

It was bombed in WW2. First by the British, then by the Germans during operation Market Garden.

Ahhh that explains it.  What a shame. 

[Threshkin]

Brugge Belgium.  Very cool looking place, well worth a few minutes exploring on google maps/street view.  Thanks.

For more views of Brugge/Bruges, see the movie In Bruges (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780536/). (Fair warning: it's not nearly as idyllic a movie as its setting would suggest. But it is very good.)

god
I love that film! It is on my top 20 list.

We watched this movie on Father's Day based on this thread.
The movie was good, better than the second feature, The Lost City of Z.
Both from the library and snuggling in the couch for a few hours was much better than going out.

[Imma]

Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?

It was bombed in WW2. First by the British, then by the Germans during operation Market Garden.

Ahhh that explains it.  What a shame.

It was all gone long before that. The city was destroyed several times (by fire and war) in the middle ages and early modern age, and never completely rebuilt. In the 1880s a law was passed that allowed all cities to demolish their outdated defensive structures and many cities did. We like clean and fresh and new and modern in this country, not old stuff. My grandparents remember the ditches that were the last remnant of the old moat (20s/30s).  The citiy was completely destroyed in WWII and we used that occasion to start over with a clean slate: even the street plan was changed.

[Hula Hoop]

Imma - that image looks like pretty much every Italian city and town now.  I've been to Eindhoven and it doesn't look anything like that now.  Did the Dutch just pull everything down?  And the Italians didn't?

It was bombed in WW2. First by the British, then by the Germans during operation Market Garden.

Ahhh that explains it.  What a shame.

It was all gone long before that. The city was destroyed several times (by fire and war) in the middle ages and early modern age, and never completely rebuilt. In the 1880s a law was passed that allowed all cities to demolish their outdated defensive structures and many cities did. We like clean and fresh and new and modern in this country, not old stuff. My grandparents remember the ditches that were the last remnant of the old moat (20s/30s).  The citiy was completely destroyed in WWII and we used that occasion to start over with a clean slate: even the street plan was changed.

That's so sad.  But I guess that explains why so many Dutch people love Italy.  Around here, they like to preserve old stuff and traditions. 

[jmecklenborg]

There has been an unfortunate return to wood apartment construction all over the United States, plus the quality of wood has gone down dramatically since WWII since the old growth forests are gone and everything's built out of fast-growing pine.  I own a brick home from 1914 that has old-growth pine joists and flooring, and the quality is much higher than today's pine, although very low-quality compared to the old-growth wood in the better homes and apartments from the 1800s and early 1900s. 

It's little known that the eastern United States sold off much of its old hardwood to the Caribbean in the 1700s and 1800s, because the islands were settled much earlier and were quickly denuded of whatever hardwood existed there.  Much was also sold to England and Ireland after they chopped down their last good trees.  And sadly...much of this was simply burnt for fuel and does not survive in structures that still stand. 


   

[RetiredAt63]

There has been an unfortunate return to wood apartment construction all over the United States, plus the quality of wood has gone down dramatically since WWII since the old growth forests are gone and everything's built out of fast-growing pine.  I own a brick home from 1914 that has old-growth pine joists and flooring, and the quality is much higher than today's pine, although very low-quality compared to the old-growth wood in the better homes and apartments from the 1800s and early 1900s. 

It's little known that the eastern United States sold off much of its old hardwood to the Caribbean in the 1700s and 1800s, because the islands were settled much earlier and were quickly denuded of whatever hardwood existed there.  Much was also sold to England and Ireland after they chopped down their last good trees.  And sadly...much of this was simply burnt for fuel and does not survive in structures that still stand. 

A lot of eastern Canada's old growth forests were pine.  It made great masts and spars.   The forests we think are old growth forests are relatively young.

[BlueHouse]

My niece is living with me for the summer.  A few years ago, I hosted her brother.  Completely different issues, but same root cause.  Niece is 20, in college, and lives 100% off her parents (except for the part I pay for).  She's staying with me because I got her a job (her first ever), as an unpaid intern.  She takes uber to work every day.  She buys lunch out.  She eats most dinners out.  She gets mani/pedis on a regular basis.  She joins expensive gyms.  She charges everything to credit cards, which her parents pay (they are comfortable, but they still need to work to afford shit).  She really has no concept of how much it costs to just live on your own.  Her school loans are expected to be ~$200K.   

She will probably float through life and find someone else to pay her loans.  I don't even really resent it that much.  I just hope that she really can float, because I'm sure as hell not paying those school loans down while she gets massages and pedicures that I won't even treat myself to.

[jmecklenborg]

My niece is living with me for the summer.  A few years ago, I hosted her brother.  Completely different issues, but same root cause.  Niece is 20, in college, and lives 100% off her parents (except for the part I pay for).  She's staying with me because I got her a job (her first ever), as an unpaid intern.  She takes uber to work every day.  She buys lunch out.  She eats most dinners out.  She gets mani/pedis on a regular basis.  She joins expensive gyms.  She charges everything to credit cards, which her parents pay (they are comfortable, but they still need to work to afford shit).  She really has no concept of how much it costs to just live on your own.  Her school loans are expected to be ~$200K.   

She will probably float through life and find someone else to pay her loans.  I don't even really resent it that much.  I just hope that she really can float, because I'm sure as hell not paying those school loans down while she gets massages and pedicures that I won't even treat myself to.

Yeah imagine a first date with a woman like this when you've been stuck working crap part-time jobs to accelerate FI. 

About two years ago I met a girl who was about 28 at a party.  We walked out together but then things deteriorated when I mentioned that I usually work at a restaurant on the weekends.  Her complexion changed and she started treating me like a little kid and bragging about how she makes "$100/hr in my pajamas" before parting ways a few minutes later. 

I am friends with her friends and word will eventually reach her if it didn't already that I made $100k in 2017 in real estate speculation enabled by that restaurant job. 

[Linea_Norway]

My niece is living with me for the summer.  A few years ago, I hosted her brother.  Completely different issues, but same root cause.  Niece is 20, in college, and lives 100% off her parents (except for the part I pay for).  She's staying with me because I got her a job (her first ever), as an unpaid intern.  She takes uber to work every day.  She buys lunch out.  She eats most dinners out.  She gets mani/pedis on a regular basis.  She joins expensive gyms.  She charges everything to credit cards, which her parents pay (they are comfortable, but they still need to work to afford shit).  She really has no concept of how much it costs to just live on your own.  Her school loans are expected to be ~$200K.   

She will probably float through life and find someone else to pay her loans.  I don't even really resent it that much.  I just hope that she really can float, because I'm sure as hell not paying those school loans down while she gets massages and pedicures that I won't even treat myself to.

Then you have the whole summer to tell her some of your story. Maybe she'll remember it in a few years time when her credit card bills pile up...

[9-Volt]

My sister in law just got her forth gym membership. Two regular ones, a Hit and yoga. She also has a more than adequate gym in her garage. She has been paying for the two and the Hit for years and only goes to yoga.

[Scotts]

Yeah imagine a first date with a woman like this when you've been stuck working crap part-time jobs to accelerate FI. 

About two years ago I met a girl who was about 28 at a party.  We walked out together but then things deteriorated when I mentioned that I usually work at a restaurant on the weekends.  Her complexion changed and she started treating me like a little kid and bragging about how she makes "$100/hr in my pajamas" before parting ways a few minutes later. 

I am friends with her friends and word will eventually reach her if it didn't already that I made $100k in 2017 in real estate speculation enabled by that restaurant job.

I can imagine that when the news reached her you may hear from her then.

[SwordGuy]

Yeah imagine a first date with a woman like this when you've been stuck working crap part-time jobs to accelerate FI. 

About two years ago I met a girl who was about 28 at a party.  We walked out together but then things deteriorated when I mentioned that I usually work at a restaurant on the weekends.  Her complexion changed and she started treating me like a little kid and bragging about how she makes "$100/hr in my pajamas" before parting ways a few minutes later. 

I am friends with her friends and word will eventually reach her if it didn't already that I made $100k in 2017 in real estate speculation enabled by that restaurant job.

I suspect I might have made a statement along the lines of "Oh, I didn't realize you were in a line of work where you perform services for your clients in your bedroom attire.   $100 per hour is pretty cheap for that work, isn't it?"


Be glad you dodged that bullet.   Definitely not a keeper.

[jmecklenborg]

I suspect I might have made a statement along the lines of "Oh, I didn't realize you were in a line of work where you perform services for your clients in your bedroom attire.   $100 per hour is pretty cheap for that work, isn't it?"

I kept it out of the original post but she claimed that she makes that much doing freelance grant writing.  I believe she started doing grant writing while working for a non-profit and then was able to attract freelance work. 

I rarely say this out loud in real life but I've made about $200,000 working part-time at a restaurant on top of my full-time job since graduating from college.  I think most of my relatives are completely baffled by my continued weekend work (and they don't like my little house) but will disapprove if I retire at age 45. 

I should add that I lucked out completely with a low-tech lot flipping scheme...the area improved much faster than I anticipated.  My relatives and coworkers made fun of me for paying close attention to property in "bad" neighborhoods but I'm having the last laugh.  Many people in my area were so blinded by old-fashioned pro-suburb anti-city bias but now they're red in the face because some people made out like bandits when the historic neighborhoods near public housing went from worst to first. 

[BMW Jalopy]

I've been puzzled for a long time about my dad. He has been working as a [let's say podiatrist for anonymity] for 50 years (still at it @ 80+), lives frugally in a paid off house, yet never seems to have any money saved up. Just figured it out, whenever he has more than his monthly bills, he gives the money to Jesus. So much for any inheritance, but it's his money to do with whatever he wants. I just hope he isn't looking to me to fund his long term care.

[Raymond Reddington]

I have an uncle who inherited a house from my grandmother who was a hoarder and refuses to throw anything out. He's basically been her caretaker for the last 20 years and is too cheap to do anything with his life. Divorced, no kids, no prospects, no hobbies, and just now decided that talking to his ex every once in a while (note: they were together over 25 years ago, and she has since remarried and lives entirely in another part of the country) would be his attempt to be social.

The house is a mess still and would probably be condemned by the local FD, and he has done nothing with whatever "wealth" she had. It's probably all sitting in various checking or savings accounts. He has 3 cars and drives everywhere, even though he has nothing to do except go to doctors and get groceries.

[SwordGuy]

I suspect I might have made a statement along the lines of "Oh, I didn't realize you were in a line of work where you perform services for your clients in your bedroom attire.   $100 per hour is pretty cheap for that work, isn't it?"

I kept it out of the original post but she claimed that she makes that much doing freelance grant writing.  I believe she started doing grant writing while working for a non-profit and then was able to attract freelance work. 

I rarely say this out loud in real life but I've made about $200,000 working part-time at a restaurant on top of my full-time job since graduating from college.  I think most of my relatives are completely baffled by my continued weekend work (and they don't like my little house) but will disapprove if I retire at age 45. 

I should add that I lucked out completely with a low-tech lot flipping scheme...the area improved much faster than I anticipated.  My relatives and coworkers made fun of me for paying close attention to property in "bad" neighborhoods but I'm having the last laugh.  Many people in my area were so blinded by old-fashioned pro-suburb anti-city bias but now they're red in the face because some people made out like bandits when the historic neighborhoods near public housing went from worst to first.

Very cool!    Kudos to you!

And don't give a damn about your relatives pissing on your FIRE party with their disapproval.   If you get tired of it, remind them that if you had followed their advice about financial plans before, you would still have to work for a living...