Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 787011 times)

partgypsy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #450 on: August 10, 2015, 12:35:38 PM »
Iowajes,
This makes me wonder, if mmm forum readers have self-selected, being from families that have psychologically traumatized them from financial insecurity? My father has his own story but this is about my mother. My parents divorced over 25 years ago, and in a couple years all the kids had flown the nest, she could downsize that big expensive house, which was the primary asset she got from the divorce.
My Mom, never recovered from the divorce, she is like Miss Havisham, except that she has a dysfunctional/co-dependent relationship with her oldest alcoholic son. Aside from short stints in other job areas, typically her only source of income was being a part time teacher (maybe 15K a year). Instead of selling the big suburban house to get some cash and also to get out from under the large carrying costs (including 7K a year property taxes) her son moves in with her, starts trashing it and living off her. 
The first real estate boom, man she could have sold it for 400, 500K, and it was paid off! Instead she decides to open a HELOC. Basically she uses it as an ATM to cover the fact that her income is less than her expenses. Also, she retired 2 times. Both times instead of getting a pension, she opted for cash option, and spent the money. So her income is 550 a month.
The latest was that she was going to sell the house after retiring. She retired summer of 2014. No movement, in fact recently filled out paperwork to postpone paying her property taxes until the house is sold (but accruing interest). My sister also moved in at some point and aside from a 2 year stint, is also chronically under- or irratically employed and contributes little to housing expenses.
When the house was paid off, I estimated that between the 3 of them, as long as they were able to bring in 36K or so a year, they could cover their housing and other costs. But they couldn't do it, or were not willing to do it.
Mom periodically freaks out and calls me and asks for money, saying she is afraid she won't be able to meet the monthly (interest only) payments on her HELOC. Or that I should help her buy a house elsewhere (no thanks). I keep telling her, that's why she needs to sell the house. 
My Dad who is usually the stoic one, called me practically in tears this weekend about the prospect of both his ex-wife and 2 of his children going to be on the street. He is in his 80's and still financially helps out the eldest, when he himself is on a limited income. He says he knows it's going to happen, and just he hope he dies before it happens. So basically, all of this is eventually going to fall in the laps of the two responsible children, who have jobs, spouses, children of their own to take care of. I'm not volunteering.

I've actually taking a little break from responding to those 3 members of the family, because it is like a broken record, and they never listen to anything anyone is telling them (it is always someone else's fault why their lives are so messed up, and calling on that threatens their world view). Literally there are times I get a frantic call from my Mom. when I get a chance to call, she cannot talk because she is playing a videogame, or they are about to eat their takeout/delivery food  or their cable movie just started.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 12:42:37 PM by partgypsy »

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #451 on: August 10, 2015, 12:46:48 PM »
Really sad! She will qualify for low cost senior housing ( they take a third of your income for rent usually)when she loses the home & then the 2 loser kids will have to fend for themselves. You have given her good advise but she is not listening so I would stay out of it though it will be hard to do.

Pooperman

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #452 on: August 10, 2015, 01:03:27 PM »
Some people just need to hit bottom before they understand.

partgypsy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #453 on: August 10, 2015, 01:17:05 PM »
It's really hard to do. I think I need to get into therapy/counseling about it, it's affecting my outlook in life. Part of what makes it hard is one of the siblings is my twin sister, so ... I may need to separate or cut off, but there is a lot of guilt about not being able to save her.

But then again I have seen what happened to my father when he tried to help/save my older brother. No matter how much he gave or poured into trying to help or save him, it was never enough, and the financial pressure led him to make some stupid decisions, and he ended up losing everything. Which is what is now happening to my Mom. : (
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 03:23:12 PM by partgypsy »

iowajes

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #454 on: August 10, 2015, 02:19:44 PM »
Iowajes,
This makes me wonder, if mmm forum readers have self-selected, being from families that have psychologically traumatized them from financial insecurity?

No, not in my case- these aren't people I'm directly related to.

My parents aren't mustachian at all; but they managed to come from very poor families and work their way to being wealthy. I think most people would say they are boglehead-types. They earn a lot, save a lot, and spend a lot.  I think they are a bit too frivolous with money; but they are retired at typical retired age with plenty to get them through the next 30 years living high on the horse.  They taught me very early to be careful with my money; don't spend what you don't have, invest in stocks, etc. My sister appears to be taking after them (she has her husband's student loan debts; but no consumer debt, but they spend appropriate to how people would expect for their 'lifestyle'- he is a lawyer), I am going a bit more extreme in the frugality; we spend well below our means, obviously.

Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #455 on: August 11, 2015, 07:37:52 AM »
This makes me wonder, if mmm forum readers have self-selected, being from families that have psychologically traumatized them from financial insecurity?

Short answer: not financial insecurity, just watching parents and then chosing a different path.

Long answer: my parents have always lived in a huge house (they just sold the house I grew up in: 7K square feet on 70 acres of land. Let's leave it at that?), spent lavishly (vacations to Europe every few years, interspaced by going south in winter, tailored and bespoke clothing, 500$ shoes, etc). My mother considers 100$/person/week to be a barely adequate grocery budget (we were a family of 5 growing up. That's a 2K grocery bill per month. EEEEK.) They're now in a situation where their retirement is not QUITE so well-funded as they'd like, which means she won't be able to take quite as many week-long painting workshops in the south of France, but that's the only actual impact it's likely to have on them.

However: they started their own company 25 years ago, and there were times where they were working 80 hours a week with abusive people and not sleeping and basically going through hell on earth because if they didn't the company would go under. In the long run: they've ensured the family income of over 20 people, most of who have worked for them for 15+ years. On a personal level, though, that was basically what made me decide that 1 main income stream + 2-3 side projects would be ideal for me. None of this 'being completely tied to 1 thing and unable to get away' nonsense. If I'm miserable, or unhappy, or want out, I want to be able to get out without sacrificing the things I care about (house, family, free time, etc). I can give up expensive shoes and trips to Europe to be happy all week while I'm working, and to ensure that I always have options.

My parents are happy with their life. They didn't give up anything they didn't want to. They're now comfortable, and more than likely to stay that way. Different values, though: they valued working and building a company and being entrepreneurs and etc. I value freedom and stability at the same time, and not needing to subsidize an extravagant lifestyle is definitely key to achieving that. :)

cripzychiken

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #456 on: August 11, 2015, 12:12:34 PM »
This makes me wonder, if mmm forum readers have self-selected, being from families that have psychologically traumatized them from financial insecurity?

Short answer: not financial insecurity, just watching parents and then chosing a different path.

While I personally fall in the first group, I'd say most the people here are in the 2nd group.  Basically they've watched their parents stumble or fail and don't want to follow that same path.  Not all parents have to fail to scare the kids away - sometimes being too successful and ending up putting the company before the family would be just as bad.

Winston

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #457 on: August 11, 2015, 12:44:42 PM »
... they are retired at typical retired age with plenty to get them through the next 30 years living high on the horse.

My goal is to avoid having to eat horse meat in retirement! LOL! The phrase is "living high on the hog," because the better (more expensive) cuts of meat are the parts higher up on the animal, above the belly.

P.S. I will say that I had pork belly at a pub in the UK a few weeks ago, and it was amazing. Living low on the hog isn't that bad ;)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 12:47:47 PM by Winston »

codemonkey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #458 on: August 11, 2015, 01:15:00 PM »
My parents were frugal and high income earners.  If they had any investment knowledge, they probably could have retired early rather than when my dad reached 59 1/2.  Although he retired that very same day, so at least he didn't stick around longer than he thought he had to.  They've been generous with their money, but at the same time they have plenty to live a long and comfortable retirement.

They set a good example of staying out of debt and I remember compound interest being mentioned a time or two, but I grew up believing that you go to school, you go to college, you get a job, then you work till your 65, then you retire for a few years and die.

If it doesn't sound very positive, you're correct.  That led me to allowing my spending to meet my income for the first 7 years of my working career.  It wasn't until I found MMM that I realized money could buy me the freedom I craved rather than more things that only gave me temporary satisfaction.

My parents laid the foundation for me to at least not be in debt and to save at least enough to get my company's 401k match.  Finding Mustachianism revolutionized my life and our 10% savings rate is now close to 50% despite being a one income family with 4 children.

My wife comes from a completely different family background.  Her parents are very unhealthy in both a physical way as well as with their money.  Her dad went on disability at 50.  By 55, all of his retirement money was gone, with the last bit of it being spent on an expensive anniversary trip to Hawaii.  She worked a fast food job in high school to save up and buy a car for herself.  After high school, she supported herself by working but because of dropping out of college, she never made much money and had just enough to survive.  She paid cash for everything and never got into debt.

I was worried she wouldn't get on board with my new perspective on money, but she hopped right on the bandwagon and we're well on our way to FI and hopefully RE.  It's probably a 15+year journey away, but that's better than the 32 years I thought I had left with my old view on money.

BPA

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #459 on: August 11, 2015, 01:21:14 PM »
My mother used to get it.  I don't know if senility is setting in or what, but lately she's been mocking me for being "cheap" (because I won't use an expensive grocery delivery service and because I determined that $236 to see Rod Stewart was too much.)  She also tells me all of her ideas for upgrading my house. 

She used to be so frugal and still is for herself, but finds it necessary to pass judgment on my money decisions.  Drives me nuts.  She must forget how much she hated working before she retired at 65.


iowajes

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #460 on: August 11, 2015, 01:27:31 PM »
... they are retired at typical retired age with plenty to get them through the next 30 years living high on the horse.

My goal is to avoid having to eat horse meat in retirement! LOL! The phrase is "living high on the hog," because the better (more expensive) cuts of meat are the parts higher up on the animal, above the belly.

P.S. I will say that I had pork belly at a pub in the UK a few weeks ago, and it was amazing. Living low on the hog isn't that bad ;)

Thanks for the lesson :)

MishMash

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #461 on: August 11, 2015, 01:30:54 PM »
My mother used to get it.  I don't know if senility is setting in or what, but lately she's been mocking me for being "cheap" (because I won't use an expensive grocery delivery service and because I determined that $236 to see Rod Stewart was too much.)  She also tells me all of her ideas for upgrading my house. 

She used to be so frugal and still is for herself, but finds it necessary to pass judgment on my money decisions.  Drives me nuts.  She must forget how much she hated working before she retired at 65.

I think our moms know each other.  Mine went from frugal to full spend and now that she knows we have some level of a nut she is CONSTANTLY telling me how we live in a "small piece of shit house" (it's 2k feet), that we need to completely remodel the basement (that we don't use outside of storage and the laundry) and that since we are here in this state for 4 more years (before moving to god only knows where) that we should rent this house out and buy another, larger, higher taxes, 800k plus house if we don't want to improve the one we live in.

BPA

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #462 on: August 11, 2015, 03:29:00 PM »
My mother used to get it.  I don't know if senility is setting in or what, but lately she's been mocking me for being "cheap" (because I won't use an expensive grocery delivery service and because I determined that $236 to see Rod Stewart was too much.)  She also tells me all of her ideas for upgrading my house. 

She used to be so frugal and still is for herself, but finds it necessary to pass judgment on my money decisions.  Drives me nuts.  She must forget how much she hated working before she retired at 65.

I think our moms know each other.  Mine went from frugal to full spend and now that she knows we have some level of a nut she is CONSTANTLY telling me how we live in a "small piece of shit house" (it's 2k feet), that we need to completely remodel the basement (that we don't use outside of storage and the laundry) and that since we are here in this state for 4 more years (before moving to god only knows where) that we should rent this house out and buy another, larger, higher taxes, 800k plus house if we don't want to improve the one we live in.

I am wondering if she wants to spend vicariously through me since she thinks I have a super high income.  It's only $63k, but is easily 3x what she used to make. I'm also planning to retire much younger than she did.  It's exhausting sometimes.  She also wants me to make sure that my brother always has a place to live which I'm totally cool with (since we are roommates and it's working out well).  Maybe I should tell her I'd have to charge my brother more rent in order to live the way she wants me to live. 

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #463 on: August 11, 2015, 04:19:04 PM »
...

I am wondering if she wants to spend vicariously through me since she thinks I have a super high income.  It's only $63k, but is easily 3x what she used to make. I'm also planning to retire much younger than she did.  It's exhausting sometimes.  She also wants me to make sure that my brother always has a place to live which I'm totally cool with (since we are roommates and it's working out well).  Maybe I should tell her I'd have to charge my brother more rent in order to live the way she wants me to live.

Tell your brother that his rent would have to go up to support your moms ideas, get him on board with your frugality! :-)
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BPA

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #464 on: August 11, 2015, 06:06:13 PM »
...

I am wondering if she wants to spend vicariously through me since she thinks I have a super high income.  It's only $63k, but is easily 3x what she used to make. I'm also planning to retire much younger than she did.  It's exhausting sometimes.  She also wants me to make sure that my brother always has a place to live which I'm totally cool with (since we are roommates and it's working out well).  Maybe I should tell her I'd have to charge my brother more rent in order to live the way she wants me to live.

Tell your brother that his rent would have to go up to support your moms ideas, get him on board with your frugality! :-)

ha ha  He is frugal out of necessity and generally supports my getting off the working life treadmill. 

We had a pretty scary upbringing (drunk, abusive dad) and I suspect he has PTSD and does have bad anxiety, so he works part-time at a low stress, low wage job.  He might never be FI, but his frugality means that he will never have to worry about having a high wage job.  He's a great guy and does contribute, but I don't charge him very much for rent. He spends a lot of time with my son and I love that and takes care of the house and pets when I am out of town.

He has told our mom to back off me in other things before, but tries to stay out of the fray most of the time. 

Mom is ISFJ and I am ENTP, so while I love her and see what is good about her, we butt heads frequently.  It doesn't surprise me at all that we are complete opposites as far as Myers-Briggs is concerned.  :)

zephyr911

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #465 on: August 12, 2015, 11:53:32 AM »
You guys make me feel lucky that my mom is 'only' broke and doing little about it... she seems to have figured out a way to survive (for now) in an incredibly expensive place with only SS and a little part-time work. She's very supportive of my efforts, to the extent that she knows the details, and never encourages me to spend money.

I still worry that if she doesn't make better long-term plans she'll end up needing help... c'est la vie, I guess.
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tat96

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #466 on: August 13, 2015, 09:16:10 AM »
I'm so tired of both sides of my family (in-laws, blood relatives) making fun of me for; heating my house with wood, turning off lights/electronics when they're not being used, turning the hot water heater temp down, growing my own fruit and vegetables, canning, hunting and butchering my own meat, flipping items on craigslist and doubleing my money almost every time, fixing our own vehicles, driving a 20 yr old station wagon, cutting my hair every 3 months, throwing food scraps in the woods for critters (circle of life...enter Lion King music), composting, keeping the AC at 78, not going out to dinner, etc etc etc...  At the same time the in-laws don't appear very happy that they're daughter married the person described above, because I don't treat her like a princess and blow money on her...she was aware of my frugality since day 1 and she stayed with me...shove it!

Story of my life!  My entire family thinks my wife and I are incredibly cheap and go out of their ways to let us know that it is unacceptable to them.  They are unhappy because we downgraded to one car, dropped cable, and I started having the wife do my haircuts.  The argument is we make "too much money" to make good financial decisions........

Cookie78

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #467 on: August 13, 2015, 09:18:28 AM »
I'm so tired of both sides of my family (in-laws, blood relatives) making fun of me for; heating my house with wood, turning off lights/electronics when they're not being used, turning the hot water heater temp down, growing my own fruit and vegetables, canning, hunting and butchering my own meat, flipping items on craigslist and doubleing my money almost every time, fixing our own vehicles, driving a 20 yr old station wagon, cutting my hair every 3 months, throwing food scraps in the woods for critters (circle of life...enter Lion King music), composting, keeping the AC at 78, not going out to dinner, etc etc etc...  At the same time the in-laws don't appear very happy that they're daughter married the person described above, because I don't treat her like a princess and blow money on her...she was aware of my frugality since day 1 and she stayed with me...shove it!

Story of my life!  My entire family thinks my wife and I are incredibly cheap and go out of their ways to let us know that it is unacceptable to them.  They are unhappy because we downgraded to one car, dropped cable, and I started having the wife do my haircuts.  The argument is we make "too much money" to make good financial decisions........

LOL. I would have a hard time not laughing in their faces if my family expressed their displeasure at things like that! Unreal.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #468 on: August 13, 2015, 11:04:03 AM »
I'm lucky in that my relatives are all on board with these ideas, just maybe not to the same extent. Heck, my mom is orders of magnitude more frugal than I am, though not quite as investment/money savvy. The worst I get is that I should start an emergency fund right away despite being able to show mathematically it's an inferior option. I've been able to dodge that with "I will once my debts are repaid".

I guess I'm also lucky my friends are used to my habit of over-analyzing things. I've gotten comments like "That'd be weird if it wasn't you doing it."
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mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #469 on: August 13, 2015, 11:11:37 AM »
...doing whatever a 22 year old without any major responsibilities does.

"See #1"?


Excellent point.

How expensive is that stuff anyway? I thought hippies had no money because they dropped out of the mainstream economy. If they don't have any money, how can they afford to be stereotypically "high" all the time?

The country hippies grow their own. For real... And much of their food. And they live in very moustachian houses. And drive old cars. They might not save much b/c they don't make much in the first place. Got cozy with a few twenty years ago. Hung around with them for a while and then remembered I didn't like being perpetually broke and got serious again about graduating with my engineering degree.
Make it 40 years ago and you described my older sister.

Although eventually, in her 30's, she went to college and got a BS and MBA, divorced her abusive deadbeat husband, and got a job to support her kids.

mm1970

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #470 on: August 13, 2015, 11:26:19 AM »
My sister-in-law called us up Sunday morning asking to borrow $550 for a flight to Miami, so that she could catch her flight to Cuba that afternoon.

She had a flight earlier in the day that was purchased with her last credit card miles, but she missed it due to being out partying the night before.

She makes good money, but she has $100k+ in student loans, a car loan, an apartment, and apparently maxed credit cards.  Her phone gets shut off every 3 months because of not paying the phone bill, so there was no way we were going to loan give $550 that would never be seen again.

What was the reaction when you said no?

I have a relative who often asks for handouts but we've learnt better. Now when I say no I get sworn at and hung up on.

That only serves to reinforce our decision, but it does dampen my mood when we're just at home having dinner and I get a phone call accusing me of being a bitch.

All of a sudden she had to end the conversation and get off  the phone because the flight had just dropped in price.  She said she'd call back, but I don't expect to hear from her anytime soon.  I have no idea if she made it to Cuba or not, but chances are that my Mother In Law gave her money even though she cannot afford to do so.

We did give a legitimate excuse that our hospital bill (we had a baby in June) just arrived, our car insurance and home insurance are due this month, and our property tax is due in early September.  Granted, we have money to cover all of that, but it sounded good on the phone as a reason that we didn't have an extra $550 laying around to just hand over.

We stay quiet about our finances around my wife's family, and this is the first time someone has reached out for money from us.  I was an unemployed slacker in their eyes when we got married, and I'm happy for that initial impression to stick around while we continue to put away 50% of our income.
This is a good habit to have, staying quiet.  I had a conversation with my SIL on vacation.

They are average spend-types.  Not crazy.  They do have a large house, toys, big cars.  But they aren't in debt, really, besides the mortgage and car loans.  (No credit card debt.)

She has conversations with her mom about savings, etc.  My husband's parents were a single income, middle class family.  They had to save up for everything.  They had a duplex.  Saved up for that.  Sold it and bought a house.  Saved up for a camp on a lake (about $15k when they bought it decades ago).  Their entertainment was at the lake.  Saved up for vacations to Europe every 2 years (grandparent visits).

My SIL discussed buying a second camp for more access, because the current one is "shared", and MIL really kept nailing her on the costs and that she couldn't "afford it".  But I think MIL doesn't remember.  MIL and FIL were in their 30's when they bought the camp, and on a single income.  SIL and BIL are mid-40's, two good incomes, and BIL is a business owner.  They surely can afford it.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #471 on: August 20, 2015, 05:01:34 PM »

Make it 40 years ago and you described my older sister.

Although eventually, in her 30's, she went to college and got a BS and MBA, divorced her abusive deadbeat husband, and got a job to support her kids.

That's an inspiring story. She could probably supplement her income with motivational speaking :-)

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #472 on: August 20, 2015, 05:30:41 PM »
We accepted some help from the family for a house deposit - for the first and last time. However, I tend to view 'economic outpatient support' (thank you, Millionaire Next Door) like a big ol' syringe full of heroin. Feels great at the time, but if you get dependent on regular doses of it, you're at the mercy of your dealer.

The Millionaire Next Door's chapter on this phenomenon is eye-opening. They argue that people who depend on regular financial support from others are actually more nervous and less confident about the future, because they know they're reliant on the unpredictable mercy of others. I don't want to live that way.

codemonkey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #473 on: August 20, 2015, 09:25:57 PM »
We accepted some help from the family for a house deposit - for the first and last time. However, I tend to view 'economic outpatient support' (thank you, Millionaire Next Door) like a big ol' syringe full of heroin. Feels great at the time, but if you get dependent on regular doses of it, you're at the mercy of your dealer.

The Millionaire Next Door's chapter on this phenomenon is eye-opening. They argue that people who depend on regular financial support from others are actually more nervous and less confident about the future, because they know they're reliant on the unpredictable mercy of others. I don't want to live that way.

I understand the pitfalls for the average person in accepting 'economic outpatient support', but what if a person were to accept it and then just save that much more?  Or is that term only referring to people who use the money right away to increase their 'standard of living'?

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #474 on: August 21, 2015, 12:49:44 AM »
We accepted some help from the family for a house deposit - for the first and last time. However, I tend to view 'economic outpatient support' (thank you, Millionaire Next Door) like a big ol' syringe full of heroin. Feels great at the time, but if you get dependent on regular doses of it, you're at the mercy of your dealer.

The Millionaire Next Door's chapter on this phenomenon is eye-opening. They argue that people who depend on regular financial support from others are actually more nervous and less confident about the future, because they know they're reliant on the unpredictable mercy of others. I don't want to live that way.

I understand the pitfalls for the average person in accepting 'economic outpatient support', but what if a person were to accept it and then just save that much more?  Or is that term only referring to people who use the money right away to increase their 'standard of living'?

It refers to people who spend it to raise their standard of living.  My parents saved a decent chunk of.money for my brother and I for either college or a down payment on a house as necessary.  My older brother used it, so my parents considered it fair to give me my slice of the pie even though I refused.  Eventually I begrudgingly accepted when they were adamant that it was "my" money.  I guiltily added the funds to my stash and called it a day, but that obviously didn't lead to future expectation the way buying too large of a house or something would have.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #475 on: August 21, 2015, 07:02:53 AM »
Some people just need to hit bottom before they understand.

It took a while before I understood this, including coming close to rock bottom myself.

Even so, it's not a guarantee.
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Jakejake

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #476 on: August 25, 2015, 03:46:08 PM »
My sister needs a mention in this thread. Until last year she was self-employed, making well under minimum wage, with a couple side hustles that were very part-time. Needless to say, she's been bailed out multiple times by my parents for mortgage payments, cosigning of loans, etc.

Her current job is a very well paid position (over 50k, maybe 80k a year?) - gotten through being friends with the boss. She immediately began eating out at restaurants every day, buying new outfits, etc. She knows that I've been making a decent wage for several decades now consistently. So I mentioned to her that I still buy clothes at thrift shops, that I still pack a lunch every day, that my husband, who earns over 100k, packs his lunch every day. She said that's great for me, but she really just needs to get out of the office for a "break" during lunch, or people will just keep interrupting her lunch for work related things. Nevermind that she's coming off a 30 year long break (we are in our 50's), or that last year she was looking into filing for bankruptcy, or that she owes tens of thousands on her credit card, or has no retirement savings at all.

Anyway, she got told recently that she will be downgraded to a secretary, basically, with her salary cut in half this winter. She is depressed because she won't be able to afford going out to lunch daily with her boss once that happens, and doesn't want to deal with that awkward conversation - "Now that you cut my pay, I can't afford to eat out every day." But even knowing that's coming up, she won't stop eating out yet, because right now, she can still afford it.

The kicker in all of this is the position she was appointed to - CAO of an organization with an almost 100 million dollar annual budget, that at one point last year was within days of not being able to pay its employees because of budget problems.

Rufus.T.Firefly

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #477 on: August 25, 2015, 06:39:50 PM »
Quote
Anyway, she got told recently that she will be downgraded to a secretary, basically, with her salary cut in half this winter.

This is the saddest and most troubling part of the story. It shows that the company doesn't value her as much as they did when they hired her.
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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #478 on: August 25, 2015, 06:53:05 PM »
Yeah, that part sucks - and I actually think she was doing a great job, she really is smart, just not financially, and she has great people skills (better than me!).

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #479 on: August 26, 2015, 06:55:13 AM »
I wrote an article on my blog about my in-law's spending habits. So much fury.

They have a horrible case of "wants are usually needs" syndrome, which includes replacing carpet about 8 years ago (they're still paying it off), a truck they just recently bought (financed), and an extended warranty on their other new car. It wouldn't be such an issue if they didn't specifically say they "need(ed) X". The upstairs carpet is the same as it has been and is fine.

These same people just recently panicked about the fact that only one of them has any retirement funds, both over 50. Obviously, you should have figured this out way earlier.

They also use paper plates and coffee cups, to the tune of $.96/day (this is based on their Costco purchase of said products). That's one meal a week at their favorite restaurant for 1/4 of a year. SMH.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #480 on: August 27, 2015, 07:03:33 PM »
When I was in college I lived with relatives for about two years. They'd talked the wife's mom into selling the home she'd lived in for years with her husband (he'd just died) so that they could put a down payment on a huuuuuuuge house in one of the nicest areas in the East Bay. Of course, they went all out installing a MIL unit for her, complete with two (!) full bathrooms just for her and her own elevator... Then they used to pay me money to take her out every Friday to do her grocery shopping, on Mother's Day to a nice restaurant... because her daughter was too "busy" (she was a SAHM supposedly homeschooling the kids?).

It was so hard because every time I paid the rent (which was a struggle to do), a new piece of antique furniture would pop up somewhere in the house. I remember one time, during the summer when I was working 40 hrs/wk at the college bookstore, I came home and put my pajamas on so I could do some comfy reading... and the husband called my dad (who lives in another country) to tell him I was lazy and needed to get a second job.

Well, then the husband decides that he wants to quit his pastor job so that he can open an auto-detailing shop... in a horrible location. They bought a brand-new Hummer because putting the business's logo on the side somehow made sense. Meanwhile, the wife spent like nobody's business... Her hair and nails done every week, $70 outfits for their 3-year-old daughter, driving to Costco in that huge Hummer. The husband lifts his Jeep Wrangler, does all kinds of stuff to it, fancy rims, everything.

Second mortgage gets put on the house. Nobody's showing up to the business.

I lived with them 2004-2006. Last I heard, they lost the house and the husband is working two jobs (90+ hours a week), living in a trailer in the parking lot of his new church. The wife went to (a shitty) grad school and is convinced once she graduates she's going to be making tons of money.

There's more, like how mean the wife was to her husband and the fact that she pressured him to do the business... or how she asked me to come stay with her mom when her mom was dying while she watched TV in the other room. Never even saw her cry about it. Ugh.


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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #481 on: August 28, 2015, 08:43:41 AM »
geez, hope those kids turn out okay.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #482 on: August 30, 2015, 12:34:09 AM »
Goodness, some of the stories here are just horrible. I think my future in laws might have some leanings in the directions mentioned here, but I don't know them well enough yet to really say. I really, really, really hope that once I'm that side that this isn't what I find over there.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #483 on: August 30, 2015, 12:53:17 AM »
***holy shit***
etc.


There's more, like how mean the wife was to her husband and the fact that she pressured him to do the business... or how she asked me to come stay with her mom when her mom was dying while she watched TV in the other room. Never even saw her cry about it. Ugh.
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JAYSLOL

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #484 on: August 30, 2015, 10:35:20 AM »
Oh I've got stories for days regarding my in laws. These are the stereotypical kids who give the rest of the millenials a bad name. When people say you are only poor because you are lazy it's these idiots that make the case for them.

Oh where to even begin. Let's start with the overview. 4 kids all in their 30s all living with or crashing with at various times during a week with their mother. Now my MIL does not work she is disabled and lives off of some crazy combination of disability and her deceased husbands SS and military pension and this nets a tidy sum of about $4,000 a month. Back to the 4 kids all are unemployed with student loan debt up the yin yang. One sells some pyramid scheme bath product crap here and there but that's about it. Oh they live in a three bedroom apartment and have been forcibly removed from at least 5 residences in the last 5 years for non payment of rent. During these evictions she stores her stuff and has lost storage spaces for non payment I don't know how many times. She has had to purchase new furniture so many times and it's always rent a center scheme type stuff. Her rent is reasonable about $1,000 a month but her utilities everywhere she goes are insane like $500 a month water bills! My wife says it's always been like that even growing up. They shower, wash a ton of clothes idk wtf but there you are. They also eat out all the time? Why? No one wants to buy groceries because the others will eat anything not nailed down! My SIL started hoarding food which caused ants and other bugs in the closet! MIL is currently being dragged into court for this place too so we will see if she gets evicted again. How can she not afford the rent? Let's go down the roster:

My BIL is a gym rat who works out all the time and then parties all night and sleeps all day. He couldn't attend his nephew (my sons) birthday party last week because it was at 4pm on a Sunday and was still asleep. When BIL is awake he uses MILs debit card to rack up gym memberships, protein powder, etc but wait it gets worse! He just bought a Costco membership but doesn't own a car. So he uses Uber to drive him the 1 1/2 miles to Costco and then another back to carry the groceries! He used her debit card last month to pay off warrants which ate up most of MIL money which caused the eviction! This type of activity is what caused the last 5 evictions and when it's pack up and get out time who does the packing? MIL ALL BY HERSELF! All the kids even without vehicles somehow manage to get out of dodge and help not a lick! He has a son by some one night stand who he never sees and apparently is being abused by the new boyfriend. He won't get a job to get a lawyer to fight for custody however. He's wrecked at least three cars that MIL bought cash with the life insurance money her husband left her when he died. One of those was a $40k Dodge Charger bought cash. All vehicles were wrecked due to drunk driving by the way. Hitting medians and breaking at least two axles. BIL has had several DWIs. They've also lost at least three other vehicles to title loans. And I am talking about $50k Mercedes ML500 paid off taken for nonpayment of a $5,000 title loan!

Second BIL is just a drifter who couch surfs 24/7 best that I can tell. Multiple DWIs, takes money from MIL. Does nothing with his life. Years ago he had his life kind of straight. He was with a girl and MIL paid for the deposit on a new build KB home. something like $20k for them. They break up and the home and the deposit end up lost for nothing. This had happened before when MIL had put down something like $50k on a McMansion. Like 4500 sq ft type. Lost that one too but at least that was meant for the whole zoo. I remember on MILs birthday one year they asked HER for money to take a trip to Houston to go party. She pays all their bills remember and they didn't so much as buy her a card but instead took money from her to go drink! I swear I am not making this stuff up....

SIL has the daughter who lives at the zoo. Years ago she makes MIL buy two brand new Jeep Grand Cherokees one for her and one for the baby daddy. She also has MIL furnish and renovate his house something like $100k. After all of this they break up and he kicks her and his daughter out. Keeping the truck and house. Now she's about to be 40 and desperately wanted another baby. So instead of you know looking for a partner to love, cherish, marry, etc. she hooks up with some guy she meets at a hotel. She's now pregnant and has no contact info for the guy and never will and decided to quit her job at the front desk of the hotel (where she met the guy) to raise the kid.

So TL;DR my MIL received a large life insurance payout when her husband died and has blown through near as I can tell $500-$700k on mainly cars, eating out, and deposits on new construction homes that fell through. She now supports four 30 year olds and their kids on SSDI and a military pension. All of whom treat her like crap and she's had multiple heart attacks. We've begged her to come and live with us on the condition that the leeches are not welcome. No dice on that.

<drops mic>

The list of curse words that went though my head while reading that is easily as long as your story.  My head hurts and i can feel my blood-pressure going through the roof.  I hope MIL can sort some things out with those kids.  It might take some intervention from you guys, although i know that would be extremely difficult for everyone.  Good luck. 

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #485 on: August 30, 2015, 04:45:03 PM »
My sister was just telling me that she and her husband live paycheck to paycheck and have no savings. She then said that when her husband just starts making more money, they'll be fine. I made a general statement about my perception of their income and that it was still double my income and we're saving quite a bit and she said, oh no, he makes X. Together, their household income is >$400k. I almost choked. I told her that at that income, it's a spending problem, not an income problem to which she told me that it's really a tax issue, that they're planning to buy a $1m+ house to minimize their tax burden. My suggestion to contribute to her 401(k) as an easy way to immediately reduce their taxable income was met with a...I wish we could afford it. Just very different people.

I always spend a little more for my kids after being around my sister and seeing the mountains of stuff they buy their girls. This time, I kept it to: one packet of bendy straws ($1), one kite on clearance ($5), two ebay princess dressup lots ($35 total). Sister spends more than that on one shirt for her 2 year old.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #486 on: August 30, 2015, 04:48:33 PM »
My sister was just telling me that she and her husband live paycheck to paycheck and have no savings.  ...  Together, their household income is >$400k.
My head just exploded.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #487 on: August 30, 2015, 05:38:53 PM »
I can't even fathom what they are spending all that $ on.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #488 on: August 30, 2015, 06:26:59 PM »
^Blow?

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #489 on: August 30, 2015, 07:08:39 PM »
Together, their household income is >$400k. I almost choked.

I almost drooled.

I can't even imagine that kind of income, much less spending that kind of money!

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #490 on: August 30, 2015, 07:41:10 PM »
Oh, and her cc was declined at a restaurant for a $40 check.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #491 on: August 31, 2015, 05:46:59 AM »
I don't know how you live paycheck-to-paycheck on $400k unless you have a gambling addiction. There's a physical limit to how much money you can snort, guzzle, or smoke, but there's no limit on how much the casino will take.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #492 on: August 31, 2015, 06:51:44 AM »
I don't know how you live paycheck-to-paycheck on $400k unless you have a gambling addiction. There's a physical limit to how much money you can snort, guzzle, or smoke, but there's no limit on how much the casino will take.

Private school for two kids - $50k/yr. Taxes - $150k/yr. House - $100k/yr. Food - $20k/yr. Utilities $20k/yr. "Entertainment"/Vacations/Cars/Etc - $60k/yr. Total, $400k.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #493 on: August 31, 2015, 07:12:17 AM »
I don't know how you live paycheck-to-paycheck on $400k unless you have a gambling addiction. There's a physical limit to how much money you can snort, guzzle, or smoke, but there's no limit on how much the casino will take.

Private school for two kids - $50k/yr. Taxes - $150k/yr. House - $100k/yr. Food - $20k/yr. Utilities $20k/yr. "Entertainment"/Vacations/Cars/Etc - $60k/yr. Total, $400k.

Aren't school districts one of the reasons that couples buy houses in nicer areas? I think it's crazy to live in a nice school district AND send your kids to private school.

Pooperman

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #494 on: August 31, 2015, 07:19:25 AM »
I don't know how you live paycheck-to-paycheck on $400k unless you have a gambling addiction. There's a physical limit to how much money you can snort, guzzle, or smoke, but there's no limit on how much the casino will take.

Private school for two kids - $50k/yr. Taxes - $150k/yr. House - $100k/yr. Food - $20k/yr. Utilities $20k/yr. "Entertainment"/Vacations/Cars/Etc - $60k/yr. Total, $400k.

Aren't school districts one of the reasons that couples buy houses in nicer areas? I think it's crazy to live in a nice school district AND send your kids to private school.

Depends where you live. For a house in a decent area with ok schools you might not want to send your kids to costs a metric crap ton in some areas (SF, NY/NJ, DC, etc). Like $500k+ for not a war zone middle class area. That beaing said, it's still stupid, but I can totally understand how it can happen. The housing cost comes from my parents' place (worth about $750k). Much of that amount is taxes in addition to the rest of the normal maintenance, mortgage, etc. It's what you get for living outside NYC.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #495 on: August 31, 2015, 07:48:26 AM »
My sister was just telling me that she and her husband live paycheck to paycheck and have no savings. She then said that when her husband just starts making more money, they'll be fine. I made a general statement about my perception of their income and that it was still double my income and we're saving quite a bit and she said, oh no, he makes X. Together, their household income is >$400k. I almost choked. I told her that at that income, it's a spending problem, not an income problem to which she told me that it's really a tax issue, that they're planning to buy a $1m+ house to minimize their tax burden...
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Geostache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #496 on: August 31, 2015, 08:12:27 AM »


Depends where you live. For a house in a decent area with ok schools you might not want to send your kids to costs a metric crap ton in some areas (SF, NY/NJ, DC, etc). Like $500k+ for not a war zone middle class area. That beaing said, it's still stupid, but I can totally understand how it can happen. The housing cost comes from my parents' place (worth about $750k). Much of that amount is taxes in addition to the rest of the normal maintenance, mortgage, etc. It's what you get for living outside NYC.

Having just gone through this, I can say that it is possible to find houses that cost far less than $500k for a good school district in the DC 'burbs. The McMansions cost upward of $500k, but there are plenty of smaller bungalows that can be had for a 'steal' around the mid-300's. And these houses are in districts that are consistently ranked in the top 10 in the country. It just takes patience and a willingness to compromise.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #497 on: August 31, 2015, 08:23:17 AM »
Just tried doing the math on that, my jaw is still on the ground.

400k$, take 30% for tax, leaves 280k$, and getting paid twice per month gives 11666$. 

Zillow would not give me any mortgage options for a 1M house with ok credit score with less than 20% down. 

1M house with 20% down-> 3.89%: monthly payment of 3800$ (pre local taxes etc) call it 4500$/mon

11666$ - 4500$/2 = 9416$

They are looking at spending 9400$ twice a month after housing!!!!!! 

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #498 on: August 31, 2015, 08:26:06 AM »
Just tried doing the math on that, my jaw is still on the ground.

400k$, take 30% for tax, leaves 280k$, and getting paid twice per month gives 11666$. 

Zillow would not give me any mortgage options for a 1M house with ok credit score with less than 20% down. 

1M house with 20% down-> 3.89%: monthly payment of 3800$ (pre local taxes etc) call it 4500$/mon

11666$ - 4500$/2 = 9416$

They are looking at spending 9400$ twice a month after housing!!!!!! 

It a different world than where you come from...

But when her husband starts making more, they'll be fine! lol

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #499 on: August 31, 2015, 08:32:28 AM »
Just tried doing the math on that, my jaw is still on the ground.

400k$, take 30% for tax, leaves 280k$, and getting paid twice per month gives 11666$. 

Zillow would not give me any mortgage options for a 1M house with ok credit score with less than 20% down. 

1M house with 20% down-> 3.89%: monthly payment of 3800$ (pre local taxes etc) call it 4500$/mon

11666$ - 4500$/2 = 9416$

They are looking at spending 9400$ twice a month after housing!!!!!! 

It a different world than where you come from...

Where I live the property taxes can easily be $30,000 a year on a million dollar house. So that brings your spending down to $7,000. Figure two car payments at $1,000 a month each, we're down to $6,000 twice a month. $4,000 for the private schools, so we're down to $4,000 twice a month. Add in the food, landscaping on the gigantic house, the likely ridiculous cable and internet and cell phone bills, and the heating and cooling of the gigantic house... Pretty easy to see where it goes.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 08:36:25 AM by mtn »