Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 943183 times)

Snow

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • Location: Norway
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3450 on: August 10, 2017, 06:50:34 AM »
I'm not sure if I should feel exasperated or just sad about my brother. The guy is sweet as anything, has a reasonable, but not high-paying job and really wants to settle down with a partner. This bleeds through into his dating game and he seems to attract leeches like nothing else.

10 years ago, he approached my dad in tears because his then-gf1 had convinced him to take out some $50k worth of CC debt and then ran off with the money. The interests were really bad, so dad liquidated all the funds he had saved so far (he had just started saving in funds at this point) and re-mortgaged the house to put it all into one big loan with a small interest. This refinancing alone saved my brother over $200 a month. It was agreed that he should pay my dad back x amount each month for y years.

Roll forward five years, and the poor idiot does it again. His then-gf2 didn't run off with the money at least, but insisted on luxurious holidays several times a year that they could not afford (and didn't work). He has also been getting lax with the repayments to my dad lately, because "They have to understand that he is poor." and "What's the big deal?".

It makes me sad that at this point, it very well looks like SO and I will be able to afford a mortgage much earlier that him, and he is several years my senior (and went straight to work, rather than through 5 years of poor student life). In confidence, my dad also told me that he would be very happy to help me (and SO) with a mortgage, should we wish. But my brother has burned his bridges in that regard.

So if I get anything from Playing with Fire UK's thread about inlaws... it is that I, sadly, cannot allow myself to get entangled with my brother's finances. It has caused enough strain on family relationships as it is. I will just continue playing the impoverished student who gets by, but not much more.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 06:52:19 AM by Snow »

prognastat

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 797
  • Location: Texas
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3451 on: August 10, 2017, 07:47:22 AM »
I'm not sure if I should feel exasperated or just sad about my brother. The guy is sweet as anything, has a reasonable, but not high-paying job and really wants to settle down with a partner. This bleeds through into his dating game and he seems to attract leeches like nothing else.

10 years ago, he approached my dad in tears because his then-gf1 had convinced him to take out some $50k worth of CC debt and then ran off with the money. The interests were really bad, so dad liquidated all the funds he had saved so far (he had just started saving in funds at this point) and re-mortgaged the house to put it all into one big loan with a small interest. This refinancing alone saved my brother over $200 a month. It was agreed that he should pay my dad back x amount each month for y years.

Roll forward five years, and the poor idiot does it again. His then-gf2 didn't run off with the money at least, but insisted on luxurious holidays several times a year that they could not afford (and didn't work). He has also been getting lax with the repayments to my dad lately, because "They have to understand that he is poor." and "What's the big deal?".

It makes me sad that at this point, it very well looks like SO and I will be able to afford a mortgage much earlier that him, and he is several years my senior (and went straight to work, rather than through 5 years of poor student life). In confidence, my dad also told me that he would be very happy to help me (and SO) with a mortgage, should we wish. But my brother has burned his bridges in that regard.

So if I get anything from Playing with Fire UK's thread about inlaws... it is that I, sadly, cannot allow myself to get entangled with my brother's finances. It has caused enough strain on family relationships as it is. I will just continue playing the impoverished student who gets by, but not much more.

It's a fine line between helping a friend or family member that is doing terribly financially and getting dragged down by them. It's like saving a drowning person, if you aren't careful in how you do it they can drag you down with them.

RWD

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1557
  • Location: Mississippi
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3452 on: August 10, 2017, 07:49:18 AM »
I did it! I've finally read all of the pages in this thread, from the very beginning. 69 pages of antimustachian hilariousness. I read the gems out loud or forwarded them in an email to my hubby.

I have to say, without a doubt the grandparents who borrowed money to save for the grandchild was the most ludicrous thing in this entire thread.

You can read more about them here. There is seemingly no end to the horror.
The link doesn't work for me. Can you name the thread and subforum?
The link works fine for me. Were you not logged in? The Journals subforum can only be viewed when you are logged in.

Feivel2000

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 160
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Germany
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3453 on: August 10, 2017, 09:00:12 AM »
I did it! I've finally read all of the pages in this thread, from the very beginning. 69 pages of antimustachian hilariousness. I read the gems out loud or forwarded them in an email to my hubby.

I have to say, without a doubt the grandparents who borrowed money to save for the grandchild was the most ludicrous thing in this entire thread.

You can read more about them here. There is seemingly no end to the horror.
The link doesn't work for me. Can you name the thread and subforum?
The link works fine for me. Were you not logged in? The Journals subforum can only be viewed when you are logged in.
Might be a Tapatalk problem...


TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3454 on: August 10, 2017, 10:32:37 AM »
He has also been getting lax with the repayments to my dad lately, because "They have to understand that he is poor." and "What's the big deal?".

The problem with hanging out with vampires is that you eventually become one. This, I believe, is what may have happened to your brother. After spending so much time with leeches, he's accustomed to the notion that it's right, reasonable, and OK to *be* in a one-way-street relationship. It feels normal. So flipping the script and being the person to whom resources flow also feels appropriate.

"They have to understand that he is poor."

No, *HE* has to understand that he is poor, and that his poverty is a direct result of thinking with his little head because he's got a reasonable job that should be able to pay for his necessities. Although he has the Constitutional right to the pursuit of happiness, even to the point of bankrupting himself in the quest for nooky, he also has the adult responsibility of making sure the negative consequences of those decisions stop with him. He does not have the right to drag other people into his financial quagmire.

As part of the understanding that he is poor-- and by that, I mean that he has a middle-class income but tons of debt due to past decisions-- he has to grok the fact that multiple expensive vacations simply aren't things he can afford, for him OR for someone else.

He also has to understand that his father made major personal sacrifices in order to bail him out the first time. He liquidated all his own savings and mortgaged the family home to save his son, thereby delaying his own retirement and possibly ensuring that he'll never have one. And, how has he repaid his father's sacrifice? By deciding that he doesn't have to repay the debt, by trying to stick his father with the bill, and by trying to gouge even more out of the good old man.

Pleasant personality notwithstanding, these are not the acts of a nice or good person. They are the self-absorbed decisions of a complete jerk. He might be "sweet as anything" but I don't think that what he's done to your father is very sweet. It appears to me that the sweetness has some very selective targets. He clearly has the skills to butter people up to get what he wants out of them, and he's very agreeable when getting what he wants, but look how he behaves when his father asks him to hold up his end of the deal. Tantrum time!

"What's the big deal?"

The big deal is that his father has worked hard all his life, and simply cannot afford to subsidize somebody with a higher standard of living than himself. Most likely he didn't get to go on the various beaches, cruises, and whatever other vacations your brother's girlfriend gouged, wheedled, boinked, manipulated, or tantrumed out of your brother. He didn't get to benefit from the vacation, and he also didn't get to benefit from whatever else the girlfriend did to convince your brother she was worth taking on vacation. All those benefits were directed toward your brother.
I squeak softly, but carry a big schtick.

Snow

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • Location: Norway
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3455 on: August 10, 2017, 11:02:48 AM »
The problem with hanging out with vampires is that you eventually become one. This, I believe, is what may have happened to your brother. After spending so much time with leeches, he's accustomed to the notion that it's right, reasonable, and OK to *be* in a one-way-street relationship. It feels normal. So flipping the script and being the person to whom resources flow also feels appropriate.

That... may have hit the nail on the head pretty hard. I think you might have just altered how I view my immature older brother.

I had not thought it to such extremes. Pension funds are seperate, so dad is still able to retire, and he has a small house and good personal finance sense. He will be all right.

But to think that my brother blew over two down-payments for a mortgage (hell, it's over 50% of a full mortgage at the prices down there) on air and is a liability on top of it... is pretty darn... off-putting? Distressing? Something along those lines.

Ann

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 196
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3456 on: August 10, 2017, 11:17:06 AM »
Pleasant personality notwithstanding, these are not the acts of a nice or good person.

I agree with GrimSqueaker's assessment.  I know Snow said his brother was "sweet" and didn't use the term "good person" or "nice", but I would like to segue into my distaste of people saying "I'm a good person" or "He's a good person".  I think such labeling opens up to justification of all sorts of selfish and even evil acts.  The human brain loves short cuts and we need them to function efficiently, but I wish people would avoid that one.  People aren't "good".  They just are, and need to decide every day how they will form their life.  Is this action or past action "good" or "bad"?  And it will be a mixed bag, with a lot of neutral.   And it's not additive.

Step37

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 151
  • Age: 43
  • Location: AB, Canada
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3457 on: August 10, 2017, 02:47:11 PM »
The problem with hanging out with vampires is that you eventually become one. This, I believe, is what may have happened to your brother. After spending so much time with leeches, he's accustomed to the notion that it's right, reasonable, and OK to *be* in a one-way-street relationship. It feels normal. So flipping the script and being the person to whom resources flow also feels appropriate.

That... may have hit the nail on the head pretty hard. I think you might have just altered how I view my immature older brother.

I had not thought it to such extremes. Pension funds are seperate, so dad is still able to retire, and he has a small house and good personal finance sense. He will be all right.

But to think that my brother blew over two down-payments for a mortgage (hell, it's over 50% of a full mortgage at the prices down there) on air and is a liability on top of it... is pretty darn... off-putting? Distressing? Something along those lines.

Snow, thank you for posting this, and TGS, thank you for the awesome response. You have both inspired me to text my sister and request that she begin repayment of the "short-term" loan I gave her TWO YEARS AGO. She agreed. I know that she and her husband are in a better place income-wise than they were, but this has only been since spring so I was giving them some breathing room . . . Enough already. The fact that it's a spending problem and not an income problem does not register with them.

She is coming to visit next month and will be bringing me post-dated cheques. If she can afford an airline ticket, she can afford to start paying me.
"Not wanting something is as good as possessing it." ~Donald Horban

AlanStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1617
  • Age: 38
  • Location: South East Virginia
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3458 on: August 10, 2017, 07:44:32 PM »
"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is in the Declaration of Independence not the Constitution.
Be the person Mr. Rogers knows you can be.

fluffmuffin

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 134
  • Location: VA
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3459 on: August 11, 2017, 08:30:37 AM »
Back OT from the healthcare chatter: My future SIL, OMG. I love her, but sometimes I just want to shake her. She's a teacher in a LCOL state, so doesn't have a high income. She's chosen to live by herself for the last three years instead of having a roommate, so she's been putting 50% of her salary towards rent every single month. She uses shopping as entertainment, has like three closets full of clothing, and goes to Marshalls/TJ Maxx every. single. week. She has virtually no savings and could only go on the family vacay this summer because the future in-laws subsidized her flight, which they did not have to do for anyone else, including the brother who's generally accepted to be a wayward fuckup and who only started holding down a full-time job a year ago.

She's moving today and keeps sending me texts about "oh no, I can't believe how much stuff I have to move, this is the worstttt," and she can't afford movers or to rent a truck so she's having to drive her compact car back and forth between her old city and her new city with all of her crap. Hmm, maybe EVERYTHING would be better if you bought less stuff at TJ Maxx?

Props to her, she is moving in with a roommate in her new city. We talked about how cutting her rent by so much would let her start saving, which I was thrilled about. But then she told me the reason why she wants to save: so she can get a place by herself after the school year :( It's just so frustrating. She tells me she's stressed out about money and I wish I could help, but I feel like I've just started making progress with my SO after three years of dating and a full year of cohabitation. I love my future in-laws, but they did not raise their kids with a lot of financial literacy. I don't understand how that happened, since they're so on top of their own finances. My SO says they just never talked about money and that if there was something they wanted, they would just get it. Sigh.

The future SIL just texted me to ask about the brand of bag I brought with me on vacation so she could start shopping for one. It was a (hand-me-down) Longchamp Le Pliage, which retail around $145.

At least no one has had to take out an extra mortgage to service her debts, like Snow's brother. Yet...

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3460 on: August 11, 2017, 10:11:29 AM »
"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is in the Declaration of Independence not the Constitution.

I was actually going for a WWE reference: when a character is doing something extremely silly or self-destructive, the announcer describes it as exercising his (or in a very rare case, her) "Constitutional right to..." do something stupid that no sane person would do. The WWE use of the word "Constitutional" is deliberately ironic and also hilarious. I was kind of trying to tap into that.
I squeak softly, but carry a big schtick.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2543
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3461 on: August 11, 2017, 11:13:44 AM »
"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is in the Declaration of Independence not the Constitution.

I was actually going for a WWE reference: when a character is doing something extremely silly or self-destructive, the announcer describes it as exercising his (or in a very rare case, her) "Constitutional right to..." do something stupid that no sane person would do. The WWE use of the word "Constitutional" is deliberately ironic and also hilarious. I was kind of trying to tap into that.
The bolded explains a lot about Trump: he must have missed the memo on that.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

Snow

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • Location: Norway
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3462 on: August 11, 2017, 11:29:00 PM »
This thread, and some of the inheritance threads, is making me increasingly happy that my family doesn't have very much to fight over. Though, I am now starting to entertain the thought that my "poor" brother might try to screw me over, but 1) I'll build my own life, always have, and 2) that is so far into the horizon that I am not going to let it cloud my skies.

K-ice

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 672
  • Location: Canada
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3463 on: August 15, 2017, 01:10:27 PM »
I am  very frustrated with a young relative.  They just started living on their own and made a good choice of renting a reasonably priced suite and found a job. But they keep posting or liking stupid  stuff like:
 
"After I get my hair and nails done I only have $2 in my bank account."

I worry that it is true and I know they have asked another relative for money recently.  Even if it is not true, they should not find those posts funny.

They have stuck with the job for a few months but I know they broke their lease. I'm not sure of the lease details, but I am very concerned with their responsibility level.

It is just frustrating to watch.  I am not sure I should PM them to offer budgeting help or anything. I am known as the "good with numbers geek" in the family.  But I don't want to come off as condescending.





marielle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 718
  • Age: 24
  • Location: South Carolina
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3464 on: August 15, 2017, 01:25:16 PM »
I am  very frustrated with a young relative.  They just started living on their own and made a good choice of renting a reasonably priced suite and found a job. But they keep posting or liking stupid  stuff like:
 
"After I get my hair and nails done I only have $2 in my bank account."

I worry that it is true and I know they have asked another relative for money recently.  Even if it is not true, they should not find those posts funny.

They have stuck with the job for a few months but I know they broke their lease. I'm not sure of the lease details, but I am very concerned with their responsibility level.

It is just frustrating to watch.  I am not sure I should PM them to offer budgeting help or anything. I am known as the "good with numbers geek" in the family.  But I don't want to come off as condescending.

Sounds like something your relative will learn on their own if things continue down this road. Provided no one offers bail-outs of course. Maybe you could send a couple links to articles but the advice could fall on deaf ears or possibly make things worse. Wasn't there a study that said when you argue with someone and provide facts/evidence that they just double down on their original belief?

Feivel2000

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 160
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Germany
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3465 on: August 15, 2017, 02:11:33 PM »
When my sister got her first real paying job, I shared a couple of MMM articles with her, together with the observation that I would be ~100k richer if I had known these ideas and mindset when I got my first job (12 years ago).

I think it worked.


Lady SA

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 190
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3466 on: August 15, 2017, 03:03:54 PM »
I hereby submit my SIL as a very frustrating case of dumbass-ness.

She has zero financial skills. DH and I are quite sure she doesn't understand how banks work. Literally, like she doesn't understand the difference between checking and savings accounts and definitely doesn't understand the concept of auto bill pay.

She went to university to get a degree in performance piano. She racked up more than $80k+ in student loans, which her mom, my MIL, cosigned. FIL (divorced from MIL) saw the trainwreck coming a mile away and refused to cosign any loans with her, but MIL couldn't let SIL not go to college so she signed her financial life away. SIL graduated 5 years ago but has never consistently paid her loans (doesn't even pay the minimum when she deigns to pay at all), even though she has a pretty sweet gig playing pianos on cruise ships. This is hugely impacting my MIL's credit, who still has 3 younger children to put through college in the next few years.

SIL spends her time cruising exotic locales, buying luxurious clothing (for her job, of course! Can't be seen performing in the same glittery/slinky/outrageous evening gown twice in one month!), doing all the dumb tourist money-trap activities each week (ziplining, exotic expensive restaurants, etc). For someone whose job pays for room and board for the duration of the contract (!), and feeds you breakfast, lunch, and dinner, she saves NOTHING. Her living expenses SHOULD be low (and because of these perks, the pay is correspondingly low too), but she constantly racks up credit card debt (using a card that has foreign transaction fees!! WHILE ON INTERNATIONAL CRUISES. WHAT.) to party with her crew friends.

A few years ago, she started refusing to pay for her portion of the phone bill (MIL had her on her family plan). She was blowing through (roaming!) data like nobody's business and her portion was at least $100+ PER MONTH. My poor MIL called me, sobbing, because she had to dip into college savings for the younger sisters to pay this outrageous phone bill that SIL had stopped contributing to for the last 8 months--and it came out that previous to that, SIL would use that same $100 worth of data, but only send something like $30 per month and call it good enough. I told MIL to kick SIL off her plan, but MIL was horrified at the idea; SIL is often out of the country and leaving her without a phone was unfathomable. Also, part of it is that SIL is very touchy and would absolutely stop speaking with MIL for a year if MIL gave her even tiny consequences for her actions. I dropped it because MIL was getting so agitated, and I honestly have no idea how that all got worked out, if at all.

SIL treats MIL like an ATM with unlimited money (and gets outraged when the ATM shows signs of reluctance) because she deserves it for going through the trauma of her parents divorcing when she was 7. The kicker is that MIL and SFIL don't make all that much -- maybe they bring in $40k per year, if that, and have almost no retirement savings, but SIL thinks they are rolling in money and are selfish if they don't subsidize her lifestyle.

MIL and DH often try to talk with her to get her to take care of her bills and basic responsibilities. DH wants her to refinance her loans out of MIL's name but she can't get her shit together and do it because it's "too hard". She likes to use her time at sea as an excuse to ostrich and stick her head in the sand and not deal with things because "she can't get in contact". Bullshit, she has enough contact with the outside world to post a bajillion selfies in exotic places wearing a new swimsuit/outfit each time. She just refuses to deal with the scariness of finances because they are overwhelming and she shuts down completely.

Each year she also doesn't get her shit together for filing taxes and files for at least 2 or 3 extensions. Mostly because she can't be bothered gathering the few various documents she needs and "doesn't feel like it" <head explodes>. Again, taxes are big and scary so she ostriches. She messaged DH a few weeks ago and asked/demanded he do her taxes for her because her extension is up in like 2 weeks. DH told her "No way. I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole." lol

SIL is 3 years older than we are, but we are MILES ahead of her both financially and maturity-wise. I just cannot fathom taking advantage of family generosity/support like that and actively trying to be as much of a financial and emotional burden as possible. Within 2 months of having full-time jobs after college, both DH and I refinanced our loans to be in our names only so our parent's credit would no longer be affected. We have our own phone plan and pay it completely ourselves. We pay our taxes judiciously and file well before the deadline, every year.

I would have no problem simply letting her experience the natural consequences of being a complete dumbass and jerk, but the problem is my sweet MIL. She has tied herself financially to SIL and cannot extricate herself, and is sinking slowly because of SIL's ineptitude and selfishness. MIL made quite a few poor choices to enable SIL, but now seems to want out, but there's no way to get free without SIL's cooperation. We try to help out and cover some of MIL's and SFIL's bills, and help DH's younger sisters with books and a bit of tuition, but I get so steamed that each gift is in some way helping to subsidize SIL.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 03:17:21 PM by Lady SA »
https://www.earnest.com/invite/lillian2 --> Use this referral to refinance your student loans with Earnest and get a $200 bonus!

ysette9

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1712
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3467 on: August 15, 2017, 03:33:30 PM »
Wow, what a disaster of a story. The MIL sounds like a classic enabler. For addicts there is al-anon for the family members so they can learn how to not be enablers and support the addict while living their own lives. It sounds like someone needs to open an equivalent organization for family members of financial disasters.
"It'll be great!"

dandarc

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2908
  • Age: 34
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3468 on: August 15, 2017, 03:45:50 PM »
Lady SA -

Sounds like your MIL is a pretty hard-core enabler.  No idea if this would help, but your MIL / SIL dynamic sounds an awful lot like my Mom / Drug-addicted sister's dynamic.  "This is how drug addicts treat their parents" might put SIL's behavior in perspective.  Perhaps a follow up with "If you continue to give her money, she'll have no reason to change . . ."  If MIL is anything like my mom, she'll say the right things when you talk with her, but when it comes down to brass tacks, she'll continue to cave.  At least she'll know that you think that what she's doing is not helping anyone - if enough people she respects tell her that, maybe one day she'll start the process of removing the leach, which by then will be even more difficult.  If not, well at least you tried, and made it clear you're not participating in the insanity.

It is OK to be generous so long as nobody is being harmed.  In this case, many people are being harmed - MIL/FIL and SIL, obviously, and then you've got the other sisters.  Then I'm guessing this topic comes up fairly often, causing others such as you and DH distress.  MIL is basically saying with all this "not pissing off SIL is more important than everything else in my life, including doing what is best for SIL."

Anyway - sorry for everyone involved.  This sort of crap is very difficult.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3469 on: August 15, 2017, 04:55:51 PM »
Also, part of it is that SIL is very touchy and would absolutely stop speaking with MIL for a year if MIL gave her even tiny consequences for her actions.

Based on the rest of what you've told us, I see no down-side to that.
I squeak softly, but carry a big schtick.

mustachepungoeshere

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1704
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3470 on: August 15, 2017, 04:58:44 PM »
Lady SA, your SiL is obviously batshit crazy and deserves a serious kick up the arse for her childish attitudes and for taking advantage of your MiL.

SIL spends her time cruising exotic locales, buying luxurious clothing (for her job, of course! Can't be seen performing in the same glittery/slinky/outrageous evening gown twice in one month!...

She's on a cruise ship. She would have a new audience every week or two!

Lady SA

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 190
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3471 on: August 15, 2017, 05:16:38 PM »
Also, part of it is that SIL is very touchy and would absolutely stop speaking with MIL for a year if MIL gave her even tiny consequences for her actions.

Based on the rest of what you've told us, I see no down-side to that.

Lol I completely agree with that. I have her blocked myself and any communication goes exclusively through DH. He does a good job rebuffing her ridiculous requests because he sees right through her, but his mom just can't bring herself to see reality. She knows its a bad situation, but can't bring herself to enact logical consequences with SIL because she's afraid of getting cut off. Honestly, it wouldn't be much different if SIL did cut her off out of spite -- the only time MIL hears from SIL is when SIL needs help paying bills. But in MIL's mind, that is better than nothing. DH and I haven't been able to persuade her otherwise, unfortunately.

MIL is a classic enabler, no doubt about it. We've gotten her to the point of not sending SIL monetary gifts once we pointed out that they were already gifting her the not-shut-off phone and such. Slow but steady progress on that front, but I don't think I'll ever be able to convince her to fully financially cut off SIL.
https://www.earnest.com/invite/lillian2 --> Use this referral to refinance your student loans with Earnest and get a $200 bonus!

Lady SA

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 190
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3472 on: August 15, 2017, 05:17:33 PM »
SIL spends her time cruising exotic locales, buying luxurious clothing (for her job, of course! Can't be seen performing in the same glittery/slinky/outrageous evening gown twice in one month!...

She's on a cruise ship. She would have a new audience every week or two!

EXACTLY. The logic boggles the mind.
https://www.earnest.com/invite/lillian2 --> Use this referral to refinance your student loans with Earnest and get a $200 bonus!

Lady SA

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 190
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3473 on: August 15, 2017, 05:36:46 PM »
Oh, I forgot another juicy tidbit about SIL! She cycles through boyfriends, about two per year, usually other crew members on the cruises she takes. They always bail on her once they start getting glimpses of her incredibly poor money skills. Her last one had to file her tax extensions for her (once he found out in June, I think, that she hadn't filed taxes) and then was gone within a month. LOL

Good on those guys for dodging that bullet.

I'm of the opinion that the only dude who will put up with her bullshit will be someone who is equally appallingly bad at finances, and then that will be a shitshow of epic proportions.
https://www.earnest.com/invite/lillian2 --> Use this referral to refinance your student loans with Earnest and get a $200 bonus!

martyconlonontherun

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 89
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3474 on: August 15, 2017, 08:15:23 PM »
Friend 1 was talking to wife about friend 2 while I say in the back seat of the car. Her complaint was friend came from a wealthy family, no student loans and
 had a good job  so she had a judgy attitude how everyone should max out their 401k. Friend 1 went on a tangent on how unrealistic it was and that people in the real world have expenses they have to pay. Friend 1 makes about 90k a year and had less student loans loans than me. I make 65k, had massive student debt and known to waste money (random ali express purchases, travel a ton {I drive/crash at apartments of friends, but you can't tell that by the photos when I'm at an interesting location), etc)

After her going on to my wife for five-ten minutes on the subject and being so annoyed that friend 2 would make such an insane comment, I pipe in from the back "I plan on maxing out my 401k this year" and put my headphones back on.

She drives a brand new leased Rave4 after trading in her previous leased Rav4 that was less than a year old because she liked the new body style better and "Got a really, really good deal," has a pure breed talk that she spoils, renting a trendy apartment, and constantly had expensive food tasted. Totally different mindset and it makes it hard when we hang out since No, i would rather not spend $40/person on dinner tonight when I would rather cook us all a good meal for the price of one person.
 

Step37

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 151
  • Age: 43
  • Location: AB, Canada
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3475 on: August 15, 2017, 08:43:17 PM »
SIL spends her time cruising exotic locales, buying luxurious clothing (for her job, of course! Can't be seen performing in the same glittery/slinky/outrageous evening gown twice in one month!...

She's on a cruise ship. She would have a new audience every week or two!


EXACTLY. The logic boggles the mind.

Jesus, what an inconsiderate, parasitic twit. The mind boggles. Hope your MIL wakes up soon, Lady SA. This would be very hard to watch.
"Not wanting something is as good as possessing it." ~Donald Horban

Feivel2000

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 160
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Germany
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3476 on: August 16, 2017, 01:30:52 AM »
Only a small thing, but it is a gifted coffee mug from a relative who struggles to pay the bills on time.
It is a nice gesture and I love him , but I wish he would have his priorities in order...


Snow

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • Location: Norway
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3477 on: August 16, 2017, 06:46:50 AM »
SIL spends her time cruising exotic locales, buying luxurious clothing (for her job, of course! Can't be seen performing in the same glittery/slinky/outrageous evening gown twice in one month!...

She's on a cruise ship. She would have a new audience every week or two!


EXACTLY. The logic boggles the mind.

Jesus, what an inconsiderate, parasitic twit. The mind boggles. Hope your MIL wakes up soon, Lady SA. This would be very hard to watch.

Wow, just. Wow.

fluffmuffin

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 134
  • Location: VA
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3478 on: August 16, 2017, 07:21:00 AM »
That SIL, Lady SA. Wow. Just...wow.

Spiffsome

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3479 on: August 16, 2017, 06:27:50 PM »
How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1597
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3480 on: August 16, 2017, 08:38:59 PM »
How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.
I squeak softly, but carry a big schtick.

economista

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 252
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Colorado
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3481 on: August 17, 2017, 08:21:28 AM »
How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.

This is completely true.  In my family you only get help if you "need" it.  So if you are responsible, hard working, and independent, you won't get any help at all from your parents.  If you are irresponsible, lazy, and a complete screw up, they will help you out constantly and give you plenty of money and things.  This extrapolates out to the larger family as well - if you are the first person in the entire history of your family to graduate from college (and do it with no help from your parents at all), none of your relatives will show up to your graduation party.  If you are a 20 year old with no college at all, a part time minimum wage job, and you get pregnant accidentally with a guy you've been dating for just a few weeks, every damn family member for 3 generations will show up to your baby shower and literally shower you in gifts, gift cards, and congratulations.  Yes, these events happened a week apart, and yes I am still slightly bitter about it. 
Follow along on my journey toward becoming (semi) mustacian :) http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/economista's-journal/

Feivel2000

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 160
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Germany
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3482 on: August 17, 2017, 08:37:00 AM »
How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.

This is completely true.  In my family you only get help if you "need" it.  So if you are responsible, hard working, and independent, you won't get any help at all from your parents.  If you are irresponsible, lazy, and a complete screw up, they will help you out constantly and give you plenty of money and things.  This extrapolates out to the larger family as well - if you are the first person in the entire history of your family to graduate from college (and do it with no help from your parents at all), none of your relatives will show up to your graduation party.  If you are a 20 year old with no college at all, a part time minimum wage job, and you get pregnant accidentally with a guy you've been dating for just a few weeks, every damn family member for 3 generations will show up to your baby shower and literally shower you in gifts, gift cards, and congratulations.  Yes, these events happened a week apart, and yes I am still slightly bitter about it.

Don't be too bitter about this. It's well described as weakaning the weak and strengthening the strong (or something like that, I read a [truly terrible] German translation), in Millionaire Next Door.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 02:38:32 AM by Feivel2000 »


sw1tch

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 268
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Middle of no and where
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3483 on: August 17, 2017, 09:13:52 AM »
How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.

This is completely true.  In my family you only get help if you "need" it.  So if you are responsible, hard working, and independent, you won't get any help at all from your parents.  If you are irresponsible, lazy, and a complete screw up, they will help you out constantly and give you plenty of money and things.  This extrapolates out to the larger family as well - if you are the first person in the entire history of your family to graduate from college (and do it with no help from your parents at all), none of your relatives will show up to your graduation party.  If you are a 20 year old with no college at all, a part time minimum wage job, and you get pregnant accidentally with a guy you've been dating for just a few weeks, every damn family member for 3 generations will show up to your baby shower and literally shower you in gifts, gift cards, and congratulations.  Yes, these events happened a week apart, and yes I am still slightly bitter about it.

Reading this brought out a twinge in my neck..  I can relate and (sadly) one-up this.  Not only were my accomplishments not all that important, but I was supposed to be the one to shower the gifts onto those others that "needed" it.  So, no help from parents and I had to be a surrogate parent to other siblings and to the parents themselves.
<|>

I, sw1tch, will become a millionaire!
Fired on 9/8/2017

mm1970

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4665
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3484 on: August 17, 2017, 10:48:10 AM »
How old are the younger siblings whose college accounts are getting raided to fund the oldest's lifestyle? Possibly if they found out (cough, cough) that their futures were being endangered because Mom was 'too nice' to say no to OlderSis, they could apply opposing pressure. Certainly they'd have the advantage in numbers and proximity. At the very least, they should be made aware that there's no money in the piggybank for them to go to college, so they can plan accordingly.

They might have the advantage of proximity and numbers but the only way to compete with a dysfunctional person who refuses to act like an adult and who ostriches to avoid the predictable consequences of not acting like an adult... is to be an even bigger train wreck.

This is completely true.  In my family you only get help if you "need" it.  So if you are responsible, hard working, and independent, you won't get any help at all from your parents.  If you are irresponsible, lazy, and a complete screw up, they will help you out constantly and give you plenty of money and things.  This extrapolates out to the larger family as well - if you are the first person in the entire history of your family to graduate from college (and do it with no help from your parents at all), none of your relatives will show up to your graduation party.  If you are a 20 year old with no college at all, a part time minimum wage job, and you get pregnant accidentally with a guy you've been dating for just a few weeks, every damn family member for 3 generations will show up to your baby shower and literally shower you in gifts, gift cards, and congratulations.  Yes, these events happened a week apart, and yes I am still slightly bitter about it.

I can relate.

On the other hand... go fund me.  I had an interesting experience with it recently, as one family member and one friend put them out there for help.

Now, in general, I'm not opposed to go fund me.  Sometimes, people just need help.

But I couldn't help to think about it -
- in the case of my niece, she got sober and was fundraising for tuition for a class to teach a particular kind of exercise.  She recently got her degree in counseling, and feels that it will help her be a better counselor.  (After being a bartender well into her 30's.)  Interestingly, the amount wasn't high - less than $4000.  I noticed that not a single family member donated.  Not her mother or brother.  Only friends.  Not aunts (and there are a lot of us).  Now, my family tends to be all "bootstraps".  But my own personal thought (aside from I rarely see her, so why ask me?), is that she's in her mid-30s and has a job.  Save up for a year and then take the class.

wannabe-stache

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3485 on: August 17, 2017, 01:08:18 PM »
I recently discovered MMM and have shared with friends and family, nearly all of which have little to no savings.  Luckily my wife and i have always been savers but we've recently really buckled down and save 70-80% of our income now.  FIRE for us will be at $3M in less than 10 years i think.

Some of our less well-off family came to town for the birth of our first child a month ago (yay!).  They are some of the kin that we have shared the MMM philosophy with and they have made some changes (bought a lawnmower to cut their own grass, cut out 5x coffee trips each week, etc.).

The rented an AirBNB a couple doors down, so they had a kitchen to utilize.  Instead of using the kitchen, they ate out for lunch nearly every single day, and restaurants around us are not cheap.  and there wasn't a day that went by that they weren't running to dunkin donuts for coffee.

i am fairly certain that they have a negative net worth.  and they have 2 kids under 5 years old that have kiddie toys galore.

i just don't get it.  neither do they.

Sibley

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2070
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Chicago, IL
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3486 on: August 18, 2017, 07:47:22 PM »
I recently discovered MMM and have shared with friends and family, nearly all of which have little to no savings.  Luckily my wife and i have always been savers but we've recently really buckled down and save 70-80% of our income now.  FIRE for us will be at $3M in less than 10 years i think.

Some of our less well-off family came to town for the birth of our first child a month ago (yay!).  They are some of the kin that we have shared the MMM philosophy with and they have made some changes (bought a lawnmower to cut their own grass, cut out 5x coffee trips each week, etc.).

The rented an AirBNB a couple doors down, so they had a kitchen to utilize.  Instead of using the kitchen, they ate out for lunch nearly every single day, and restaurants around us are not cheap.  and there wasn't a day that went by that they weren't running to dunkin donuts for coffee.

i am fairly certain that they have a negative net worth.  and they have 2 kids under 5 years old that have kiddie toys galore.

i just don't get it.  neither do they.

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency. 

StockBeard

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 581
  • Age: 35
    • How To Retire Early?
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3487 on: August 18, 2017, 10:28:22 PM »

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.
Not if their yearly income is 500k

paddedhat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2058
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3488 on: August 19, 2017, 07:24:31 AM »

Don't be too bitter about this. It's well described as weaking the weak and strengthening the strong (or something like that, I read a [truly terrible] German translation), in Millionaire Next Door.

I was raised in a bizarre, and unintended social experiment. I was raised by a stay at home mom and a step dad, who was a recently retired ex-marine, an amphibious assault soldier. He was tough as nails, she went along with the program. A decade later, after my mom had two additional kids, she wanted to be somebody, and find a career. She headed off for a social work degree, and got immersed in a very different style of child rearing. Essentially, the pop psychology of the day (early 1970s) made it clear that everything she had done so far was totally wrong, and that discipline and structure would only lead to failure when raising kids. This, in some ways boiled down to no discipline or boundaries, and later in life, a desire to please and enable the children, particularly the lone daughter. The odd part, is that the entire family understood that there was a clear divide between how I was raised, and how the two younger ones were. My step dad freely admitted such, and lamented that his desire to actually raise his two younger kids as he (and most of society) saw fit, was a constant source of marriage issues, and that they essentially failed with those two.

To say that this was a contrast in strengthening some, and weakening others, is an understatement. My half-brother is marginally functional as a self-sustaining adult, and my half-sister is an epic train wreck. If I had the cash the parents burned on those two, by the time they were young adults, in order to enable, and extract them from various messes, I could of bought a new home, and really gotten a great head start, right out of the gate.

cheapass

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
  • Location: Dallas, Texas
  • On track for FIRE @ 40
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3489 on: August 19, 2017, 09:47:40 AM »

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.
Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.
Every single decision you make with money either shortens or lengthens your working career.

Proud Foot

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 743
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3490 on: August 19, 2017, 04:49:54 PM »

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.
Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

Read through the original post and the numbers work out. 4% of a $3m stache is $120k. If his expenses are around $120k and they are saving between 70-80% of income that puts income at $400-$600k

Sibley

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2070
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Chicago, IL
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3491 on: August 19, 2017, 08:02:29 PM »

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.
Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

Read through the original post and the numbers work out. 4% of a $3m stache is $120k. If his expenses are around $120k and they are saving between 70-80% of income that puts income at $400-$600k

I'm not questioning the numbers. I'm questioning one of 2 things, or possibly both:

1. Such low risk tolerance that $3M is needed to FIRE.
2. Expenses are so high as to require $3M to FIRE.

Abundant life

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 128
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3492 on: August 19, 2017, 09:44:57 PM »

Don't be too bitter about this. It's well described as weaking the weak and strengthening the strong (or something like that, I read a [truly terrible] German translation), in Millionaire Next Door.

I was raised in a bizarre, and unintended social experiment. I was raised by a stay at home mom and a step dad, who was a recently retired ex-marine, an amphibious assault soldier. He was tough as nails, she went along with the program. A decade later, after my mom had two additional kids, she wanted to be somebody, and find a career. She headed off for a social work degree, and got immersed in a very different style of child rearing. Essentially, the pop psychology of the day (early 1970s) made it clear that everything she had done so far was totally wrong, and that discipline and structure would only lead to failure when raising kids. This, in some ways boiled down to no discipline or boundaries, and later in life, a desire to please and enable the children, particularly the lone daughter. The odd part, is that the entire family understood that there was a clear divide between how I was raised, and how the two younger ones were. My step dad freely admitted such, and lamented that his desire to actually raise his two younger kids as he (and most of society) saw fit, was a constant source of marriage issues, and that they essentially failed with those two.

To say that this was a contrast in strengthening some, and weakening others, is an understatement. My half-brother is marginally functional as a self-sustaining adult, and my half-sister is an epic train wreck. If I had the cash the parents burned on those two, by the time they were young adults, in order to enable, and extract them from various messes, I could of bought a new home, and really gotten a great head start, right out of the gate.
Which is the social experiment Paddlehat, your quasi-military upbringing, which made you an independent self-supporting adult or the pop-psychology of the 70s, that produced the failure of your siblings?

With This Herring

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1096
  • Location: New York STATE, not city
  • TANSTAAFL!
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3493 on: August 19, 2017, 10:20:22 PM »

Don't be too bitter about this. It's well described as weaking the weak and strengthening the strong (or something like that, I read a [truly terrible] German translation), in Millionaire Next Door.

I was raised in a bizarre, and unintended social experiment. I was raised by a stay at home mom and a step dad, who was a recently retired ex-marine, an amphibious assault soldier. He was tough as nails, she went along with the program. A decade later, after my mom had two additional kids, she wanted to be somebody, and find a career. She headed off for a social work degree, and got immersed in a very different style of child rearing. Essentially, the pop psychology of the day (early 1970s) made it clear that everything she had done so far was totally wrong, and that discipline and structure would only lead to failure when raising kids. This, in some ways boiled down to no discipline or boundaries, and later in life, a desire to please and enable the children, particularly the lone daughter. The odd part, is that the entire family understood that there was a clear divide between how I was raised, and how the two younger ones were. My step dad freely admitted such, and lamented that his desire to actually raise his two younger kids as he (and most of society) saw fit, was a constant source of marriage issues, and that they essentially failed with those two.

To say that this was a contrast in strengthening some, and weakening others, is an understatement. My half-brother is marginally functional as a self-sustaining adult, and my half-sister is an epic train wreck. If I had the cash the parents burned on those two, by the time they were young adults, in order to enable, and extract them from various messes, I could of bought a new home, and really gotten a great head start, right out of the gate.
Which is the social experiment Paddlehat, your quasi-military upbringing, which made you an independent self-supporting adult or the pop-psychology of the 70s, that produced the failure of your siblings?
I would guess that the social experiment was PaddedHat's strict/traditional upbringing being used as a control subject against the half-siblings raised as no-rules test subjects.  So, both.
Because your toaster got hacked because you tried to watch porn on your blender.

6-year CPA currently on hiatus.  Botched this.  Working again. 
Go soak your beans.  You know you keep forgetting.

AlanStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1617
  • Age: 38
  • Location: South East Virginia
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3494 on: August 20, 2017, 08:29:10 AM »
I recently discovered MMM and have shared with friends and family, nearly all of which have little to no savings.  Luckily my wife and i have always been savers but we've recently really buckled down and save 70-80% of our income now.  FIRE for us will be at $3M in less than 10 years i think.
...

A 3MM FIRE number is VERY high for around here.  Typically we do not include property values or other non-stock market assets as part of the '4% rule' as the 4% rule is based off long term average stock market returns.  If you have positive net worth now and are saving 70-80% your FIRE date should not be 10 years out unless you have some big expenses coming up (paying for kids Stanford education, buying your parents a yacht, going to space with Virgin Galactic, etc).  It might be useful to post a case study in a new thread if you are unsure how 4% applies to your specific situation.
Be the person Mr. Rogers knows you can be.

paddedhat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2058
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3495 on: August 20, 2017, 09:04:10 AM »

Which is the social experiment Paddlehat, your quasi-military upbringing, which made you an independent self-supporting adult or the pop-psychology of the 70s, that produced the failure of your siblings?
[/quote]
I would guess that the social experiment was PaddedHat's strict/traditional upbringing being used as a control subject against the half-siblings raised as no-rules test subjects.  So, both.
[/quote]

[/color]
The entire family, and the polar opposite approach to child rearing, was the experiment. My side of the deal was not extreme enough to qualify as a  "quasi-military" experience, but more of a rigid, traditional, mid-century approach to "family values" one would expect from much of the working class, white America, at that time. My brother and sister were nearly a decade younger, and there experience was a lot less disciplined, and more of a "do your own thing, judgement free, Mom is here to be your buddy, not a mentor, or discplinarian" experience. This really WAS cutting edge, early 1970s "best practice" psychological garbage, shoveled at many universities at that point. By the time I was out of the house, my half sister was basically out of control, and Mom was deep into a 60 hr a week career.  At that point, IMHO, guilt became a major driver of their relationship. Mom spent the next few decades coddling and enabling to the point that it was pretty horrible to watch, and I only did so at a distance.

 The DW and I raised two decent young adults, and we retired with no financial worries, about 15 years early. My half-bro has been completely broke on several occasions, including running up $125K in CC debt at one point (no that is not a typo) and losing his home. He gets by at this time ,with a sales job. He is in his late 40s, and doesn't have a dime to his name, or any long term relationships.  The half-sis is a disaster on SSDI, with a felony DUI fatality among her multiple DUI convictions, and a major prescription drug addiction. Mom died nearly a decade ago. Both parents died 20-25 years younger than expected, and the stress of the family situation was a major factor in their failed health and very early demise. I haven't had contact with the half-sister since the funeral.

Sorry, but this one is a bit light in the happy ending department.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 09:05:47 AM by paddedhat »

Cassie

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3751
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3496 on: August 20, 2017, 03:00:58 PM »
PH: that is really sad about your 2 siblings. We raised our kids about the same time and ignored the pop psychology stuff.  WE raised our kids the way we were raised.  I too went to college later at age 31 but did not ignore my kids in order to do it. I gave up things like going to events unless kid related, reading for fun, watching TV, etc. It was just kids and school and everything that revolved around that. It was fine because I got to my goal without sacrificing my family.

wannabe-stache

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3497 on: August 22, 2017, 10:07:46 AM »

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.
Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

Read through the original post and the numbers work out. 4% of a $3m stache is $120k. If his expenses are around $120k and they are saving between 70-80% of income that puts income at $400-$600k

Sorry that i missed all these posts (i did mention i am new around here).  A few reasons my numbers seem out of whack:

1. I am very conservative by nature.  i assume a 3% SWR, partially b/c my wife would kill me if the whole "FIRE" thing didn't end well.
2. I also assume we will spend around $90-100K per year which we really shouldn't, but we could (and used to).  In 2016 i probably spent $25K on training, coaching services and travel related to a fitness endeavor.  We probably spent $5K on expensive wines on a Napa trip.  Yes, we were really dumb.  I still budget $10K/year for travel alone.
3. We live in a HCOL area.
4. My first child was born one month ago.  I cannot convince my wife that we don't actually need hundreds of egyptian cotton swaddles...luckily most have been gifts.

My spreadsheet actually indicates we'll be FI in 3-4 years but we all know how many assumptions go into that (market returns, expenses, ability to continue to save $200K+ per year).  At a 4% SWR and cutting back expenses to normal levels i am fairly certain we could retire next year.

The good news is that we've got it under control. I traded in my BMW for a honda, let my landscaper go, cook all meals at home (i like to cook), canceled cable, etc.

Sometimes it feels weird to think about spending the weekends making freezer meals, hummus and homemade bread when i could be relaxing on the couch with my wife and baby, particularly when we have a high AGI at the moment.  Something about that doesn't feel right, almost feels selfish although i know that FIRE = more time with family during the "RE" part.

MgoSam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3443
  • Location: Minnesota
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3498 on: August 22, 2017, 01:26:14 PM »

Roll forward five years, and the poor idiot does it again. His then-gf2 didn't run off with the money at least, but insisted on luxurious holidays several times a year that they could not afford (and didn't work). He has also been getting lax with the repayments to my dad lately, because "They have to understand that he is poor." and "What's the big deal?".


This pisses the #$$ out of me. Your brother needs to understand "that he is poor," not the father. I am far from poor but there's a TON of things I don't do because even though I can afford it I can't mentally justify it's expense. Luxury holidays is one of the things that I've put off for the time being, my vacations consist of visiting a cousin and hanging out in that area or when going on a work trip, extending my stay for a few extra days so I only need to pay for lodging, food, and other expenses.

If you're brother were poor and paying for these vacations out of his own pocket then fine, I wouldn't really care, but the fact that someone else is forking the bill is obscene.

wannabe-stache

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3499 on: August 22, 2017, 01:53:07 PM »

Awesome that you've found the site. But $3M? That's REALLY conservative, unless you're using a different currency.
Not if their yearly income is 500k

FI number is a function of spending, not income.

Read through the original post and the numbers work out. 4% of a $3m stache is $120k. If his expenses are around $120k and they are saving between 70-80% of income that puts income at $400-$600k

I'm not questioning the numbers. I'm questioning one of 2 things, or possibly both:

1. Such low risk tolerance that $3M is needed to FIRE.
2. Expenses are so high as to require $3M to FIRE.

It's the risk tolerance. I assume 3% SWR.  And while we don't need to spend $100K+, i guess i would like to be able to.  There are many places i have yet to see and someday i would like to.