Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 780374 times)

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3200 on: July 06, 2017, 07:00:19 PM »
Then, the big issue: Michael Madigan. He has been the worst thing to happen to this state, even worse than Blago. I am not happy with our current governor, but I'll keep voting Republican in every possible election for our state until Michael Madigan is out of office. He is a scourge on the state. He's been speaker of the house since 1983 (except for two years in the 90's), and the biggest political bully in this states history.

Ah, I won't go into it any more. Its just raising my blood pressure.
Yup.  When the Speaker of the House is also the ruler of the state Democrat party (and therefore in charge of dispersing campaign funds) in a state that is solidly Democratic, he has lots of leverage to get his agenda implemented.  Republicans are powerless to stop him, and the Democrats are afraid to cross him for fear of losing campaign funding.  He can stand to lose a few seats in order to teach the rest a lesson.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3201 on: July 06, 2017, 07:21:58 PM »
Then, the big issue: Michael Madigan. He has been the worst thing to happen to this state, even worse than Blago. I am not happy with our current governor, but I'll keep voting Republican in every possible election for our state until Michael Madigan is out of office. He is a scourge on the state. He's been speaker of the house since 1983 (except for two years in the 90's), and the biggest political bully in this states history.

Ah, I won't go into it any more. Its just raising my blood pressure.
Yup.  When the Speaker of the House is also the ruler of the state Democrat party (and therefore in charge of dispersing campaign funds) in a state that is solidly Democratic, he has lots of leverage to get his agenda implemented.  Republicans are powerless to stop him, and the Democrats are afraid to cross him for fear of losing campaign funding.  He can stand to lose a few seats in order to teach the rest a lesson.

I just moved to Indiana, in part because of IL's mess.

Of course, I'm the one who just pissed off her mother because the mother is isolated, ignorant, and acting slightly irrationally. And mom will not stop trying to talk politics with me, despite this not being the first, or even 10th time. No, I am not going to respect an opinion that makes no sense and is based on nothing other than rumors you heard at the grocery store. And you don't get to yell at me for not giving Trump a chance, not after you spent 8 years convinced that Obama was a Muslim and the Devil incarnate and born in Kenya.

cheapass

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3202 on: July 06, 2017, 07:34:25 PM »
Then, the big issue: Michael Madigan. He has been the worst thing to happen to this state, even worse than Blago. I am not happy with our current governor, but I'll keep voting Republican in every possible election for our state until Michael Madigan is out of office. He is a scourge on the state. He's been speaker of the house since 1983 (except for two years in the 90's), and the biggest political bully in this states history.

Ah, I won't go into it any more. Its just raising my blood pressure.
Yup.  When the Speaker of the House is also the ruler of the state Democrat party (and therefore in charge of dispersing campaign funds) in a state that is solidly Democratic, he has lots of leverage to get his agenda implemented.  Republicans are powerless to stop him, and the Democrats are afraid to cross him for fear of losing campaign funding.  He can stand to lose a few seats in order to teach the rest a lesson.

I just moved to Indiana, in part because of IL's mess.

Of course, I'm the one who just pissed off her mother because the mother is isolated, ignorant, and acting slightly irrationally. And mom will not stop trying to talk politics with me, despite this not being the first, or even 10th time. No, I am not going to respect an opinion that makes no sense and is based on nothing other than rumors you heard at the grocery store. And you don't get to yell at me for not giving Trump a chance, not after you spent 8 years convinced that Obama was a Muslim and the Devil incarnate and born in Kenya.

Obama - smokes, drinks, supports gay and women's rights... WORST MUSLIM EVER!

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3203 on: July 07, 2017, 07:00:55 AM »
Me too.  The Illinois senate just voted for a 33% income tax increase (up to 5%), on top of our 3% effective property tax rate and 8.25% total sales tax.

Time to vote with your feet and take your tax dollars elsewhere. We moved to TX from IL 7 years ago and haven't looked back. Property tax here is somewhat high (2.3% effective for us) and the sales tax is the same but the lack of a state income tax puts us way ahead. I've got that money in the market instead of sitting in Springfield's coffers.

We will definitely be moving to a low property tax state when we retire. At that point I won't really care what the income tax is because we'll be "poor" (low income).
The funny thing is that we moved from TX to IL 6 years ago.  I took a pay cut in the process as well, but I enjoy my work here a lot more.  I'm trying to convince my bosses (small company/partnership) to move the company elsewhere.  Just the saved property taxes alone would amount to a huge raise.

It's sad. We have friends that live in a great area, in the northwest corner of the state. LCOL, and really pleasant overall. We joking said, "we could easily move here". They instantly and solemnly responded with, "nobody should intentionally moved to state that's run this poorly, unless you have no other choice".

We're not that far behind Illinois here in Pennsylvania. The parties are reversed, but we're facing a downgrade, the legislature and the governor can't work anything out, and our pension debt is a disaster.

cheapass

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3204 on: July 07, 2017, 08:01:20 AM »
We're not that far behind Illinois here in Pennsylvania. The parties are reversed, but we're facing a downgrade, the legislature and the governor can't work anything out, and our pension debt is a disaster.

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MrMoogle

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3205 on: July 07, 2017, 08:14:22 AM »
Me too.  The Illinois senate just voted for a 33% income tax increase (up to 5%), on top of our 3% effective property tax rate and 8.25% total sales tax.

Time to vote with your feet and take your tax dollars elsewhere. We moved to TX from IL 7 years ago and haven't looked back. Property tax here is somewhat high (2.3% effective for us) and the sales tax is the same but the lack of a state income tax puts us way ahead. I've got that money in the market instead of sitting in Springfield's coffers.

We will definitely be moving to a low property tax state when we retire. At that point I won't really care what the income tax is because we'll be "poor" (low income).
The funny thing is that we moved from TX to IL 6 years ago.  I took a pay cut in the process as well, but I enjoy my work here a lot more.  I'm trying to convince my bosses (small company/partnership) to move the company elsewhere.  Just the saved property taxes alone would amount to a huge raise.

It's sad. We have friends that live in a great area, in the northwest corner of the state. LCOL, and really pleasant overall. We joking said, "we could easily move here". They instantly and solemnly responded with, "nobody should intentionally moved to state that's run this poorly, unless you have no other choice".

We're not that far behind Illinois here in Pennsylvania. The parties are reversed, but we're facing a downgrade, the legislature and the governor can't work anything out, and our pension debt is a disaster.
Corruption/incompetence isn't partisan.  Some days I'm surprised the US is doing as well as it is.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3206 on: July 07, 2017, 08:18:00 AM »
Me too.  The Illinois senate just voted for a 33% income tax increase (up to 5%), on top of our 3% effective property tax rate and 8.25% total sales tax.

Time to vote with your feet and take your tax dollars elsewhere. We moved to TX from IL 7 years ago and haven't looked back. Property tax here is somewhat high (2.3% effective for us) and the sales tax is the same but the lack of a state income tax puts us way ahead. I've got that money in the market instead of sitting in Springfield's coffers.

We will definitely be moving to a low property tax state when we retire. At that point I won't really care what the income tax is because we'll be "poor" (low income).
The funny thing is that we moved from TX to IL 6 years ago.  I took a pay cut in the process as well, but I enjoy my work here a lot more.  I'm trying to convince my bosses (small company/partnership) to move the company elsewhere.  Just the saved property taxes alone would amount to a huge raise.

It's sad. We have friends that live in a great area, in the northwest corner of the state. LCOL, and really pleasant overall. We joking said, "we could easily move here". They instantly and solemnly responded with, "nobody should intentionally moved to state that's run this poorly, unless you have no other choice".

We're not that far behind Illinois here in Pennsylvania. The parties are reversed, but we're facing a downgrade, the legislature and the governor can't work anything out, and our pension debt is a disaster.
Corruption/incompetence isn't partisan.  Some days I'm surprised the US is doing as well as it is.

What's saving us, I think, is the fact that there's such a low cost-to-exchange. Elections are frequent enough and generally reliable enough to guarantee we can generally get rid of a corrupt idiot and replace him or her with someone else (also likely to be a corrupt idiot, but once in office it takes them a while to gain enough traction to do serious damage, during which time things tend to actually get done).
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infogoon

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3207 on: July 07, 2017, 09:06:48 AM »
Corruption/incompetence isn't partisan.  Some days I'm surprised the US is doing as well as it is.

I've become convinced that it's just inertia at this point.

I work in IT, and I've spent a lot of time dealing with large telecom companies. They're shockingly incompetent, and completely indifferent to the needs and desires of customers, but they're the only game in town and people just keep giving them money out of habit. A similar phenomenon exists to keep the US moving along.

cheapass

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3208 on: July 07, 2017, 09:17:16 AM »
Corruption/incompetence isn't partisan.  Some days I'm surprised the US is doing as well as it is.

I've become convinced that it's just inertia at this point.

I work in IT, and I've spent a lot of time dealing with large telecom companies. They're shockingly incompetent, and completely indifferent to the needs and desires of customers, but they're the only game in town and people just keep giving them money out of habit. A similar phenomenon exists to keep the US moving along.

A coworker and I were pondering this one day. I think most companies make pretty smart decisions when they're small and growing but at some point, once they reach critical mass, too many middle managers exist and too many dumb ideas start flying around and from that point forward it's just a big retarded company.

marielle

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3209 on: July 07, 2017, 09:30:39 AM »
Corruption/incompetence isn't partisan.  Some days I'm surprised the US is doing as well as it is.

I've become convinced that it's just inertia at this point.

I work in IT, and I've spent a lot of time dealing with large telecom companies. They're shockingly incompetent, and completely indifferent to the needs and desires of customers, but they're the only game in town and people just keep giving them money out of habit. A similar phenomenon exists to keep the US moving along.

A coworker and I were pondering this one day. I think most companies make pretty smart decisions when they're small and growing but at some point, once they reach critical mass, too many middle managers exist and too many dumb ideas start flying around and from that point forward it's just a big retarded company.

My company has the opposite problem. The middle managers and people with the actual experience from past companies know what works and what doesn't, but the CEO and a few others at corporate are idiotic. They frequently make decisions to purchase cheap equipment despite it having more problems and low output, versus getting the good stuff that will just WORK. Somehow "you get what you pay for" is followed with their personal belongings like cars and laptops but not on the business level.
Or keeping a company around as a customer that isn't making us any money (luckily we lost that customer from not meeting their needs! of course everyone at corporate was upset, yet we were all happy at my plant). All it takes is to look at the numbers. Like, gradeschool level math. Another great example is us selling a new product for really cheap, because apparently we price matched a similar product that was sold from China...NINE years ago. Now we barely make any profit. CEO likes to make decisions without consulting anyone else, then it's too late.

paddedhat

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3210 on: July 07, 2017, 04:07:42 PM »
Me too.  The Illinois senate just voted for a 33% income tax increase (up to 5%), on top of our 3% effective property tax rate and 8.25% total sales tax.

Time to vote with your feet and take your tax dollars elsewhere. We moved to TX from IL 7 years ago and haven't looked back. Property tax here is somewhat high (2.3% effective for us) and the sales tax is the same but the lack of a state income tax puts us way ahead. I've got that money in the market instead of sitting in Springfield's coffers.

We will definitely be moving to a low property tax state when we retire. At that point I won't really care what the income tax is because we'll be "poor" (low income).
The funny thing is that we moved from TX to IL 6 years ago.  I took a pay cut in the process as well, but I enjoy my work here a lot more.  I'm trying to convince my bosses (small company/partnership) to move the company elsewhere.  Just the saved property taxes alone would amount to a huge raise.

It's sad. We have friends that live in a great area, in the northwest corner of the state. LCOL, and really pleasant overall. We joking said, "we could easily move here". They instantly and solemnly responded with, "nobody should intentionally moved to state that's run this poorly, unless you have no other choice".

We're not that far behind Illinois here in Pennsylvania. The parties are reversed, but we're facing a downgrade, the legislature and the governor can't work anything out, and our pension debt is a disaster.

Yea, here in PA. we have a repub. legislative body that refuses to engage in tax reform, even though it's common knowledge that our school funding situation is a mess that results in wildly unfair taxation. They are the kings of corporate welfare, dishing out 800 million a year. This does nothing but lubricate the system, since we are at the bottom in job creation, and  always ranked in the top five in overall corruption. The pension mess is a two part disaster, with the state failing to contribute for many years, in violation of their own laws, and the midnight dealings to increase pensions for certain groups, while  everybody was asleep. Even with all that mess, we have a long way to go before we catch up with IL.

former player

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3211 on: July 08, 2017, 01:58:01 AM »

My company has the opposite problem. The middle managers and people with the actual experience from past companies know what works and what doesn't, but the CEO and a few others at corporate are idiotic. They frequently make decisions to purchase cheap equipment despite it having more problems and low output, versus getting the good stuff that will just WORK. Somehow "you get what you pay for" is followed with their personal belongings like cars and laptops but not on the business level.
Or keeping a company around as a customer that isn't making us any money (luckily we lost that customer from not meeting their needs! of course everyone at corporate was upset, yet we were all happy at my plant). All it takes is to look at the numbers. Like, gradeschool level math. Another great example is us selling a new product for really cheap, because apparently we price matched a similar product that was sold from China...NINE years ago. Now we barely make any profit. CEO likes to make decisions without consulting anyone else, then it's too late.
Before I left work we had much the same problem.  Adverts for top management jobs were filled with "essential skills" like "leadership" and "team working" and at the bottom would add as "desirable" actually knowing something about the job that needed doing.  After a few years of this almost the entire top management consisted of skilled bullshitters, while corporate knowledge and the ability to get things done routinely or pull rabbits out of hats resided with skilled mid-level workers.  Then of course came austerity layoffs, at which point a large number of skilled mid-level workers (including me) took voluntary redundancy packages and freed ourselves from the bullshit for ever more.  The organisation trundles on, but I do occasionally hear of things going wrong and can tell exactly why and how without needing the details.
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JordanOfGilead

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3212 on: July 10, 2017, 06:18:39 AM »
Then, the big issue: Michael Madigan. He has been the worst thing to happen to this state, even worse than Blago. I am not happy with our current governor, but I'll keep voting Republican in every possible election for our state until Michael Madigan is out of office. He is a scourge on the state. He's been speaker of the house since 1983 (except for two years in the 90's), and the biggest political bully in this states history.

Ah, I won't go into it any more. Its just raising my blood pressure.
Yup.  When the Speaker of the House is also the ruler of the state Democrat party (and therefore in charge of dispersing campaign funds) in a state that is solidly Democratic, he has lots of leverage to get his agenda implemented.  Republicans are powerless to stop him, and the Democrats are afraid to cross him for fear of losing campaign funding.  He can stand to lose a few seats in order to teach the rest a lesson.

I just moved to Indiana, in part because of IL's mess.

Of course, I'm the one who just pissed off her mother because the mother is isolated, ignorant, and acting slightly irrationally. And mom will not stop trying to talk politics with me, despite this not being the first, or even 10th time. No, I am not going to respect an opinion that makes no sense and is based on nothing other than rumors you heard at the grocery store. And you don't get to yell at me for not giving Trump a chance, not after you spent 8 years convinced that Obama was a Muslim and the Devil incarnate and born in Kenya.

Obama - smokes, drinks, supports gay and women's rights... WORST MUSLIM EVER!
Muslims don't support gay rights? All assumptions and potential bigotry aside, that's just a plain false statement. Every Muslim in the German parliament voted FOR gay marriage.
Every.
Single.
One.
It was the only group that voted unanimously.
"... Most Germans and all Muslim MPs believe in equality."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/angela-merkel-chancellor-germany-same-sex-marriage-vote-lgbt-muslim-mps-berlin-bundestag-cdu-sdp-a7819391.html

Please fact-check before you spout ignorance in the name of humor.

merula

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3213 on: July 10, 2017, 07:02:27 AM »
Obama - smokes, drinks, supports gay and women's rights... WORST MUSLIM EVER!
Muslims don't support gay rights? All assumptions and potential bigotry aside, that's just a plain false statement. Every Muslim in the German parliament voted FOR gay marriage.
Every.
Single.
One.
It was the only group that voted unanimously.
"... Most Germans and all Muslim MPs believe in equality."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/angela-merkel-chancellor-germany-same-sex-marriage-vote-lgbt-muslim-mps-berlin-bundestag-cdu-sdp-a7819391.html

Please fact-check before you spout ignorance in the name of humor.

FWIW, there are a lot of places in the US where "So-and-so smokes, drinks, supports gay and women's rights... WORST CHRISTIAN EVER!" could be said with a straight face.

Obviously, both religions have various sects that determine what makes a "good" member of the faith. What is acceptable in a Methodist church may not be in Roman Catholicism or Mormonism. That said, prohibitions on smoking and drinking are more common in Islam than in Christianity. Views on gay rights and women's rights seem to vary more by local culture than by prevailing sect.

And, there are only 6 Muslims in the 630-member Bundestag (despite Muslims being ~5% of the population). They are members of the leftist Green Party (4), center-right CDU/CSU (1), and center-left SPD (1), all of which supported the new law on a party level. European Muslims tend to support left-wing groups, as right-wing parties are often explicitly anti-Muslim.


prognastat

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3214 on: July 10, 2017, 08:41:43 AM »
Then, the big issue: Michael Madigan. He has been the worst thing to happen to this state, even worse than Blago. I am not happy with our current governor, but I'll keep voting Republican in every possible election for our state until Michael Madigan is out of office. He is a scourge on the state. He's been speaker of the house since 1983 (except for two years in the 90's), and the biggest political bully in this states history.

Ah, I won't go into it any more. Its just raising my blood pressure.
Yup.  When the Speaker of the House is also the ruler of the state Democrat party (and therefore in charge of dispersing campaign funds) in a state that is solidly Democratic, he has lots of leverage to get his agenda implemented.  Republicans are powerless to stop him, and the Democrats are afraid to cross him for fear of losing campaign funding.  He can stand to lose a few seats in order to teach the rest a lesson.

I just moved to Indiana, in part because of IL's mess.

Of course, I'm the one who just pissed off her mother because the mother is isolated, ignorant, and acting slightly irrationally. And mom will not stop trying to talk politics with me, despite this not being the first, or even 10th time. No, I am not going to respect an opinion that makes no sense and is based on nothing other than rumors you heard at the grocery store. And you don't get to yell at me for not giving Trump a chance, not after you spent 8 years convinced that Obama was a Muslim and the Devil incarnate and born in Kenya.

Obama - smokes, drinks, supports gay and women's rights... WORST MUSLIM EVER!
Muslims don't support gay rights? All assumptions and potential bigotry aside, that's just a plain false statement. Every Muslim in the German parliament voted FOR gay marriage.
Every.
Single.
One.
It was the only group that voted unanimously.
"... Most Germans and all Muslim MPs believe in equality."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/angela-merkel-chancellor-germany-same-sex-marriage-vote-lgbt-muslim-mps-berlin-bundestag-cdu-sdp-a7819391.html

Please fact-check before you spout ignorance in the name of humor.

Sorry, but maybe don't use cherry picked and useless data to fact-check. A few muslim politicians in a very left leaning country are not representative of the majority of muslims.

Being gay is at minimum illegal and at worst results in a death sentence in many muslim majority countries and according to pew research muslims overwhelmingly consider homosexuality immoral:
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/

And you can say well that covers mostly the third world, but it isn't much better in the first world:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/11/europe/britain-muslims-survey/index.html

There are plenty of issues with some Christians and their views on homosexuality, but most at least tolerate homosexuality and it does no good to obfuscate the truth.

Now of course there are plenty muslims that support gay rights and you can't judge individual muslims for this, but you can't say the majority of muslims are not vehemently against homosexuality.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 08:44:54 AM by prognastat »

merula

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3215 on: July 10, 2017, 09:36:58 PM »
Sorry, but maybe don't use cherry picked and useless data to fact-check. A few muslim politicians in a very left leaning country are not representative of the majority of muslims.

Being gay is at minimum illegal and at worst results in a death sentence in many muslim majority countries and according to pew research muslims overwhelmingly consider homosexuality immoral:
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/

And you can say well that covers mostly the third world, but it isn't much better in the first world:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/11/europe/britain-muslims-survey/index.html

There are plenty of issues with some Christians and their views on homosexuality, but most at least tolerate homosexuality and it does no good to obfuscate the truth.

Now of course there are plenty muslims that support gay rights and you can't judge individual muslims for this, but you can't say the majority of muslims are not vehemently against homosexuality.

You cited the CNN article on British Muslims, but there's a more extensive and more recent study from Pew Research that showed that 39% of U.S. Muslims think homosexuality should be accepted, as compared to 54% of U.S. Christians. Yes, that's a lower percentage, but it's actually fairly close, and Muslims overall are more accepting of homosexuality than several notable U.S. Christian groups (Evangelicals and Mormons).
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/05/26/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/18/most-u-s-christian-groups-grow-more-accepting-of-homosexuality/

The other thing to remember when talking about "Most Muslims" and "Most Christians" is that there are more Christians living in western countries than there are Muslims living in western countries. So, it's to be expected that, globally, more Christians will have a western viewpoint. It's not hard to find examples of Christian countries with extremely negative attitudes towards homosexuality, you just have to look outside the West:
-Russia (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/world/europe/gays-in-russia-find-no-haven-despite-support-from-the-west.html)
-Uganda (https://www.gaystarnews.com/article/uganda-anti-homosexuality-bill/)
-Tanzania (http://www.reuters.com/article/tanzania-lgbt-idUSL8N1JN373)
-Papua New Guinea (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2012/09/11/no-end-sight-png%E2%80%99s-anti-gay-laws)

Paul der Krake

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3216 on: July 10, 2017, 09:59:11 PM »
US Muslims are a minority group with a heavy sample bias towards highly educated people who have the ability and the will to jump through immigration hoops. By and large, they're fucking great, and a fine addition to any modern society. I'll take them over Bible Thumpers any day of the week.

[Moderation was requested on account of the use of the term "Bible Thumper", which I have always understood to simply mean "Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christian", but perhaps it's understood in the U.S. as derogatory.]
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 04:23:13 PM by FrugalToque »

Jane Dough

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3217 on: July 10, 2017, 10:55:31 PM »
Another jab against Christians. Not appreciated. I usually enjoy other people sharing their different points of view, but this has taken a  painful turn for me. What happened to Relatives Who Just Don't Get It?

Silverwood

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3218 on: July 11, 2017, 12:05:30 AM »
Maybe we can get back on track about relatives who just don't get it and leave the politics for a different thread ???

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3219 on: July 11, 2017, 01:30:54 AM »
My in-laws are excited about a new grandbaby. They've heard that it is a good thing to save for a child's future, so they set up a savings account. So far, so good?

No, because they 'never have any spare cash', so they take out a new loan (on top of the many existing ones), and put that in an instant access account. When it is suggested to them that this is a terrible idea, they start talking about how the interest will grow and now is the best time to invest for a child.

The loan is 14 percentage points higher than the savings account.

Linda_Norway

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3220 on: July 11, 2017, 04:32:40 AM »
My in-laws are excited about a new grandbaby. They've heard that it is a good thing to save for a child's future, so they set up a savings account. So far, so good?

No, because they 'never have any spare cash', so they take out a new loan (on top of the many existing ones), and put that in an instant access account. When it is suggested to them that this is a terrible idea, they start talking about how the interest will grow and now is the best time to invest for a child.

The loan is 14 percentage points higher than the savings account.

I can't believe it, people being so plain stupid...

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3221 on: July 11, 2017, 05:35:31 AM »
My in-laws are excited about a new grandbaby. They've heard that it is a good thing to save for a child's future, so they set up a savings account. So far, so good?

No, because they 'never have any spare cash', so they take out a new loan (on top of the many existing ones), and put that in an instant access account. When it is suggested to them that this is a terrible idea, they start talking about how the interest will grow and now is the best time to invest for a child.

The loan is 14 percentage points higher than the savings account.

I can't believe it, people being so plain stupid...

Yes. The worst thing is: they do have a point. They pay the bills first, then spend what is leftover (down to the maximum of the overdraft), every single month, and then stop spending (or spend on credit if emergencies* come up).

They will never have money at the end of the month. Not in this lifetime. So the only way this savings account is ever going to get funded is this outrageously expensive loan.

*Past emergencies have included wanting toys for cats and seeing some nice furniture that was the same style as the dining room.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3222 on: July 11, 2017, 06:02:56 AM »
My in-laws are excited about a new grandbaby. They've heard that it is a good thing to save for a child's future, so they set up a savings account. So far, so good?

No, because they 'never have any spare cash', so they take out a new loan (on top of the many existing ones), and put that in an instant access account. When it is suggested to them that this is a terrible idea, they start talking about how the interest will grow and now is the best time to invest for a child.

The loan is 14 percentage points higher than the savings account.

Presumably they are unable/unwilling to connect the dots between one kind of interest growing and another.

Feivel2000

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3223 on: July 11, 2017, 09:10:47 AM »
It's fascinating how they know they can make the loan payment every month but are not able to make an equal saving rate.
Compound interest works in favour of the grand child, but against them...


Vindicated

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3224 on: July 11, 2017, 12:20:52 PM »
Talked to my parents last night, they said "Come over tomorrow after work and buy some stuff for us on your Amazon account.  We'll pay for it, but we don't have Prime."   I think to myself, Alright! I can have them pay me cash, then use my Amazon Chase card, and I'll get 20% of the purchases back in reward points on Prime day, heck yeah!.  I don't say that though.  I ask, "What do you guys need to buy?"  My Dad says, "I want to get a TV."  Me, "For where?  Is something wrong with your TV?" (they currently have a pretty nice and large TV, and I think it's only 2 years old).  My Dad, "No, I just want a 4K TV."  Ugh.

To add to this, I know they have several thousand dollars in credit card debt, and my Dad said they're behind on their savings this year since he hasn't worked as much as a usual year.

So, now, do I just "forget" to stop by, and see if they forget too?  Or do I go, and try to prevent them from doing too much damage?
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Sibley

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3225 on: July 11, 2017, 12:33:03 PM »
Talked to my parents last night, they said "Come over tomorrow after work and buy some stuff for us on your Amazon account.  We'll pay for it, but we don't have Prime."   I think to myself, Alright! I can have them pay me cash, then use my Amazon Chase card, and I'll get 20% of the purchases back in reward points on Prime day, heck yeah!.  I don't say that though.  I ask, "What do you guys need to buy?"  My Dad says, "I want to get a TV."  Me, "For where?  Is something wrong with your TV?" (they currently have a pretty nice and large TV, and I think it's only 2 years old).  My Dad, "No, I just want a 4K TV."  Ugh.

To add to this, I know they have several thousand dollars in credit card debt, and my Dad said they're behind on their savings this year since he hasn't worked as much as a usual year.

So, now, do I just "forget" to stop by, and see if they forget too?  Or do I go, and try to prevent them from doing too much damage?

Wasn't yesterday Prime day?

Vindicated

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3226 on: July 11, 2017, 12:42:31 PM »
Talked to my parents last night, they said "Come over tomorrow after work and buy some stuff for us on your Amazon account.  We'll pay for it, but we don't have Prime."   I think to myself, Alright! I can have them pay me cash, then use my Amazon Chase card, and I'll get 20% of the purchases back in reward points on Prime day, heck yeah!.  I don't say that though.  I ask, "What do you guys need to buy?"  My Dad says, "I want to get a TV."  Me, "For where?  Is something wrong with your TV?" (they currently have a pretty nice and large TV, and I think it's only 2 years old).  My Dad, "No, I just want a 4K TV."  Ugh.

To add to this, I know they have several thousand dollars in credit card debt, and my Dad said they're behind on their savings this year since he hasn't worked as much as a usual year.

So, now, do I just "forget" to stop by, and see if they forget too?  Or do I go, and try to prevent them from doing too much damage?

Wasn't yesterday Prime day?

Started at 6pm yesterday, and runs through tonight.
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nouveauRiche

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3227 on: July 11, 2017, 12:51:14 PM »
Withdrawing my comment.  Apologies for participating in this way-off-topic discussion.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 12:34:29 PM by nouveauRiche »

infogoon

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3228 on: July 11, 2017, 01:13:40 PM »
Maybe we can get back on track about relatives who just don't get it and leave the politics for a different thread ???

Ironically, all this arguing about religions is sounding a lot like my Relatives Who Just Don't Get It.

GrumpyPenguin

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3229 on: July 11, 2017, 01:18:41 PM »
My in-laws are excited about a new grandbaby. They've heard that it is a good thing to save for a child's future, so they set up a savings account. So far, so good?

No, because they 'never have any spare cash', so they take out a new loan (on top of the many existing ones), and put that in an instant access account. When it is suggested to them that this is a terrible idea, they start talking about how the interest will grow and now is the best time to invest for a child.

The loan is 14 percentage points higher than the savings account.

Wow, my jaw dropped at that one... I think you win the prize for this page.

Abundant life

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3230 on: July 11, 2017, 01:21:34 PM »
US Muslims are a minority group with a heavy sample bias towards highly educated people who have the ability and the will to jump through immigration hoops. By and large, they're fucking great, and a fine addition to any modern society. I'll take them over Bible Thumpers any day of the week.

+1
I'm glad that you have had positive experiences with your Muslim neighbours. My imperfect but upstanding Dad used to say, 'there are good and bad in all'. What would your reaction be if insulting words were used to describe your Muslim friends?

Warlord1986

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3231 on: July 11, 2017, 02:47:43 PM »
US Muslims are a minority group with a heavy sample bias towards highly educated people who have the ability and the will to jump through immigration hoops. By and large, they're fucking great, and a fine addition to any modern society. I'll take them over Bible Thumpers any day of the week.

I have Muslim friends. They're nice people. They've never insulted my religion by calling us all as 'Bible Thumpers.'

My perpetually broke and in-debt scumbag sibling and his meal ticket have purchased a house on a beach up in the northern hinterlands of New England. It already needs repairs. I seriously doubt either of them has anything resembling the skills needed to fix it.

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3232 on: July 11, 2017, 04:53:12 PM »
My husband's 31-year-old relative just went in for dental work and came out with a $5000 bill (he hadn't been to the dentist in more than 10 years, now dealing with impact wisdom teeth and other problems).

He couldn't pay it so he asked his parents. They couldn't pay it so they asked their parents.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3233 on: July 12, 2017, 05:31:47 AM »
It's fascinating how they know they can make the loan payment every month but are not able to make an equal saving rate.
Compound interest works in favour of the grand child, but against them...

People are infinitely fascinating.

Wow, my jaw dropped at that one... I think you win the prize for this page.

Excellent! What is my prize? I'm guessing a sore head from banging it against a wall.

jezebel

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3234 on: July 12, 2017, 08:58:37 AM »
We rented a larger vehicle for a recent trip that required more car space and a lot of driving.  It was $200 for a holiday week, not terrible, but not the best deal I've gotten.

My MIL overhead a conversation I was having with my husband in which I said the words, "our next rental car" (referring to next occasion when we may need to rent a car).  She misinterprets this to mean that we are getting another rental when we are done with the current one (for what purpose I have no idea). 

When I correct her, she says: "you guys should keep driving rental cars, you get such great deals."  She says it twice, seriously.  Keep in mind that we own two functional cars that we paid for years ago.

MrMoogle

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3235 on: July 12, 2017, 11:54:59 AM »
We rented a larger vehicle for a recent trip that required more car space and a lot of driving.  It was $200 for a holiday week, not terrible, but not the best deal I've gotten.

My MIL overhead a conversation I was having with my husband in which I said the words, "our next rental car" (referring to next occasion when we may need to rent a car).  She misinterprets this to mean that we are getting another rental when we are done with the current one (for what purpose I have no idea). 

When I correct her, she says: "you guys should keep driving rental cars, you get such great deals."  She says it twice, seriously.  Keep in mind that we own two functional cars that we paid for years ago.
Yes, $200/week, that's only $10k per year.  You should keep doing that.  At that rate you can buy a $100k car every 10 years.  How could someone think that's a good decision? 

MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3236 on: July 12, 2017, 12:11:35 PM »
We rented a larger vehicle for a recent trip that required more car space and a lot of driving.  It was $200 for a holiday week, not terrible, but not the best deal I've gotten.

My MIL overhead a conversation I was having with my husband in which I said the words, "our next rental car" (referring to next occasion when we may need to rent a car).  She misinterprets this to mean that we are getting another rental when we are done with the current one (for what purpose I have no idea). 

When I correct her, she says: "you guys should keep driving rental cars, you get such great deals."  She says it twice, seriously.  Keep in mind that we own two functional cars that we paid for years ago.
Yes, $200/week, that's only $10k per year.  You should keep doing that.  At that rate you can buy a $100k car every 10 years.  How could someone think that's a good decision?

LOL. I can definitely see it being a good deal for someone to rely on rentals but that's only if they only need a car on an occassional basis. Like if they need it for an hour or two once a week and use a service like Zipcar. That way it forces you to rely more on biking and public transit, and makes you more conscious of your car use. I have a car and don't enjoy biking so I'll admit there are plenty of times that I'll get in my car and go somewhere that I didn't need to.

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3237 on: July 12, 2017, 12:16:04 PM »
Could she mixed up the idea of a 'rental' with 'lease' and '200$/week' with '200$/month'?  A 200$/month lease is not quite 'dumb' - its far from 'good' but still....
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jezebel

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3238 on: July 12, 2017, 05:05:02 PM »
Could she mixed up the idea of a 'rental' with 'lease' and '200$/week' with '200$/month'?  A 200$/month lease is not quite 'dumb' - its far from 'good' but still....

I wish this was the explanation, but she has never leased a car and likely has no idea what a lease entails or the costs involved.  I also hadn't yet told her what we spent on the rental when she said that.

paddedhat

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3239 on: July 12, 2017, 06:30:47 PM »

My perpetually broke and in-debt scumbag sibling and his meal ticket have purchased a house on a beach up in the northern hinterlands of New England. It already needs repairs. I seriously doubt either of them has anything resembling the skills needed to fix it.

Had friends who got caught up in this trap, in rural, no make that remote, coastal Maine. When it's time to sell, find a realtor and drive the sign in the yard on Memorial Day. Hear from the realtor, maybe twice a summer,  "there were a few inquiries, nothing serious though". Pull the sign up after Labor day,  since only your neighbors are driving by, and they're broke too. Rinse and repeat every summer, and hopefully, sometime in the next five or six summers you will end up taking an offer for a hell of a lot less that you "thought" it was worth. By then you are so fucking glad to be unchained that you would of taken 20-30% less than that awful number just to be free of the "dream" you once had.  Add in crushing real estate taxes, an economy that shrivels and dies after the tourists leave, epidemic drug use and poverty guaranteed to be nearby, brutal winters, and friendly neighbors (well once they get to know you, twenty, maybe thirty, years from now) and it sounds like your sibling made a wise choice...............................not really, what the hell were they thinking?

BTDretire

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3240 on: July 12, 2017, 06:43:18 PM »


Obama - smokes, drinks, supports gay and women's rights... WORST MUSLIM EVER!

 Ya, maybe not,
 You probably don't have a TV and missed the news about the Muslims that burned a man alive in a cage or the ones the beheaded infidels. /s/

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3241 on: July 13, 2017, 02:08:33 AM »


Obama - smokes, drinks, supports gay and women's rights... WORST MUSLIM EVER!

 Ya, maybe not,
 You probably don't have a TV and missed the news about the Muslims that burned a man alive in a cage or the ones the beheaded infidels. /s/

You know that Christians have also done that stuff, right? Heard of the Inquisition? And even at the time of the Inquisition, they did not represent ALL Christians.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3242 on: July 13, 2017, 02:43:39 AM »
Let's get this thread back on track, shall we? Feel free to start a new thread to debate historical Muslim/Christian oppression/aggression. Anyone got any relatives who just don't get it?

Guava

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3243 on: July 13, 2017, 06:45:31 AM »
Let's get this thread back on track, shall we? Feel free to start a new thread to debate historical Muslim/Christian oppression/aggression. Anyone got any relatives who just don't get it?

My cousins baby dady (21 years old or so) drove 10 hours to buy a new Mustang with illegal tint on the Windows. It's 2 doors. We live in a state that gets snow 6+ months sometimes. He now has to buy a winter truck. He told me he can't afford to buy diapers.

paddedhat

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3244 on: July 13, 2017, 06:59:08 AM »
Let's get this thread back on track, shall we? Feel free to start a new thread to debate historical Muslim/Christian oppression/aggression. Anyone got any relatives who just don't get it?

My cousins baby dady (21 years old or so) drove 10 hours to buy a new Mustang with illegal tint on the Windows. It's 2 doors. We live in a state that gets snow 6+ months sometimes. He now has to buy a winter truck. He told me he can't afford to buy diapers.

In a past life I used to have lots of freshly minted new trade apprentices working for me. For the first time in their lives they were making decent money, and being young, male and dumb, some of them just "needed" a cool car. More than once, junior would be late on the first snowy day, and show up looking a bit pale,  since their new V8 rear wheel drive Mustang was less than useless in the snow........ Being cool can be a bitch.

KateH

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3245 on: July 13, 2017, 07:13:45 AM »
My cousin, who with her husband makes pretty good money but has to buy the big house, take the best trips and is in debt up to her eyebrows, just bought a new car. She timed her purchase so that she paid off her old car and bought the new car at the same time so she would continue to have a car payment because "it was good to stay in the habit" of having to make a monthly payment!

Vindicated

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3246 on: July 13, 2017, 07:19:36 AM »
Talked to my parents last night, they said "Come over tomorrow after work and buy some stuff for us on your Amazon account.  We'll pay for it, but we don't have Prime."   I think to myself, Alright! I can have them pay me cash, then use my Amazon Chase card, and I'll get 20% of the purchases back in reward points on Prime day, heck yeah!.  I don't say that though.  I ask, "What do you guys need to buy?"  My Dad says, "I want to get a TV."  Me, "For where?  Is something wrong with your TV?" (they currently have a pretty nice and large TV, and I think it's only 2 years old).  My Dad, "No, I just want a 4K TV."  Ugh.

To add to this, I know they have several thousand dollars in credit card debt, and my Dad said they're behind on their savings this year since he hasn't worked as much as a usual year.

So, now, do I just "forget" to stop by, and see if they forget too?  Or do I go, and try to prevent them from doing too much damage?

Well, I quite literally forgot.  My parents never called or anything, so they managed to survive Prime day.  Woohoo!
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Ann

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3247 on: July 13, 2017, 07:52:48 AM »
My cousin, who with her husband makes pretty good money but has to buy the big house, take the best trips and is in debt up to her eyebrows, just bought a new car. She timed her purchase so that she paid off her old car and bought the new car at the same time so she would continue to have a car payment because "it was good to stay in the habit" of having to make a monthly payment!
OMG I have heard that exact same argument!!
Why can't you "stay in the habit" by transferring that exact same amount into a savings account?  (Or most Mustachianly, a 401K/Roth IRA/brokerage account).
My friend was feeling the need to trade in her car before it "really starts to depreciate" (like her boyfriend said).  I guess, in retrospect, if you ARE going to trade it in it is better to do it a month before the warranty is up rather than a month after.  But, in general, it is more financially beneficial to hold on to a quality car than to buy new.  Basically I tried to emphasis -- don't just do what your boyfriend says -- don't just do what I say -- research it a little on your own before you say that older cars depreciate faster.
She said that even if it was a better financial decision, she didn't want to get used to not having a car payment.  (Oh, and she really does like new technology that comes with new cars but I wasn't bothered by that reasoning).

JordanOfGilead

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3248 on: July 13, 2017, 08:33:21 AM »
My cousin, who with her husband makes pretty good money but has to buy the big house, take the best trips and is in debt up to her eyebrows, just bought a new car. She timed her purchase so that she paid off her old car and bought the new car at the same time so she would continue to have a car payment because "it was good to stay in the habit" of having to make a monthly payment!
OMG I have heard that exact same argument!!
Why can't you "stay in the habit" by transferring that exact same amount into a savings account?  (Or most Mustachianly, a 401K/Roth IRA/brokerage account).
My friend was feeling the need to trade in her car before it "really starts to depreciate" (like her boyfriend said).  I guess, in retrospect, if you ARE going to trade it in it is better to do it a month before the warranty is up rather than a month after.  But, in general, it is more financially beneficial to hold on to a quality car than to buy new.  Basically I tried to emphasis -- don't just do what your boyfriend says -- don't just do what I say -- research it a little on your own before you say that older cars depreciate faster.
She said that even if it was a better financial decision, she didn't want to get used to not having a car payment.  (Oh, and she really does like new technology that comes with new cars but I wasn't bothered by that reasoning).
That's funny, because everything I have seen shows the majority of depreciation happening during the first 5 -7 years after manufacture, then prices tend to level out until the 12-15 year mark or so. After 15 years it all depends on condition and mileage and given that most people don't maintain their cars very well, it appears that they "depreciate" faster at that point, when in reality the value only drops because it wasn't taken care of.

Warlord1986

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3249 on: July 13, 2017, 11:27:44 AM »

My perpetually broke and in-debt scumbag sibling and his meal ticket have purchased a house on a beach up in the northern hinterlands of New England. It already needs repairs. I seriously doubt either of them has anything resembling the skills needed to fix it.

Had friends who got caught up in this trap, in rural, no make that remote, coastal Maine. When it's time to sell, find a realtor and drive the sign in the yard on Memorial Day. Hear from the realtor, maybe twice a summer,  "there were a few inquiries, nothing serious though". Pull the sign up after Labor day,  since only your neighbors are driving by, and they're broke too. Rinse and repeat every summer, and hopefully, sometime in the next five or six summers you will end up taking an offer for a hell of a lot less that you "thought" it was worth. By then you are so fucking glad to be unchained that you would of taken 20-30% less than that awful number just to be free of the "dream" you once had.  Add in crushing real estate taxes, an economy that shrivels and dies after the tourists leave, epidemic drug use and poverty guaranteed to be nearby, brutal winters, and friendly neighbors (well once they get to know you, twenty, maybe thirty, years from now) and it sounds like your sibling made a wise choice...............................not really, what the hell were they thinking?

I don't think it's in Maine. Either New Hampshire or Rhode Island. Somewhere cold.

My sibling does not think. He did not think when he dropped out of high school, he did not think when he threw a temper tantrum and quit his job ten years ago, he did not think when he was hiking the Appalachian Trail and threw away his gear, he did not think when he was a career student for...God, 15 years? 20? IDK. And I seriously doubt he has ever thought about any purchase he has ever made. This house purchase is the latest in a long series of poor choices made without the benefit of applying his God-given intellect. However, my parents are joyful because their forty year old teenager has taken the adult step of purchasing a house that needs upgrades and that, should his meal ticket disappear from the equation, he has no way of affording because he has not held a job for a decade.