Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 780373 times)

ormaybemidgets

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3050 on: June 08, 2017, 01:03:52 PM »
That's really scary, glad to hear it was overturned - if it could happen in a case like this, then what about an adoption?  If you put a child up for adoption and the adopted parents run out of money, could this law allow them to go after the birth parents for money?
Once an adoption has gone through it changes the legal position: legally the child is the child of the adoptive family not the birth family, so no.


In the case about the sperm donor, the judge ruled that the welfare of the child exceeds any written agreements. I don't recall the reasoning the appeals court used to overturn the decision, but my guess is that they realized that this decision could destroy surrogacy.
The original decision might have had something to do with the fact that they found the sperm donor on Craigslist, and no doctor was involved. I don't see a reason to think this would happen in the usual course of sperm donation.

Raenia

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 179
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3051 on: June 08, 2017, 01:19:32 PM »
That's really scary, glad to hear it was overturned - if it could happen in a case like this, then what about an adoption?  If you put a child up for adoption and the adopted parents run out of money, could this law allow them to go after the birth parents for money?
Once an adoption has gone through it changes the legal position: legally the child is the child of the adoptive family not the birth family, so no.

So the couple in the case never adopted their child as a legal member of their family?  I suppose maybe they didn't think the paperwork was necessary since they had their own agreement, but that still wouldn't give the non-biological mother any parental rights.

Reynold

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 218
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3052 on: June 08, 2017, 01:20:04 PM »

Once an adoption has gone through it changes the legal position: legally the child is the child of the adoptive family not the birth family, so no.


In the case about the sperm donor, the judge ruled that the welfare of the child exceeds any written agreements. I don't recall the reasoning the appeals court used to overturn the decision, but my guess is that they realized that this decision could destroy surrogacy.
The original decision might have had something to do with the fact that they found the sperm donor on Craigslist, and no doctor was involved. I don't see a reason to think this would happen in the usual course of sperm donation.

If the judge can "disregard all written agreements" for the welfare of the child, I don't see why they couldn't still go after the sperm donor, or for that matter the birth parents of the adopted child.   Why would a written agreement involving a doctor be any different than one not involving a doctor?

Cookie78

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1593
  • Location: Canada
    • Cookie's Goals
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3053 on: June 08, 2017, 01:40:19 PM »

Once an adoption has gone through it changes the legal position: legally the child is the child of the adoptive family not the birth family, so no.


In the case about the sperm donor, the judge ruled that the welfare of the child exceeds any written agreements. I don't recall the reasoning the appeals court used to overturn the decision, but my guess is that they realized that this decision could destroy surrogacy.
The original decision might have had something to do with the fact that they found the sperm donor on Craigslist, and no doctor was involved. I don't see a reason to think this would happen in the usual course of sperm donation.

If the judge can "disregard all written agreements" for the welfare of the child, I don't see why they couldn't still go after the sperm donor, or for that matter the birth parents of the adopted child.   Why would a written agreement involving a doctor be any different than one not involving a doctor?

Bigger legal team?

MgoSam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3354
  • Location: Minnesota
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3054 on: June 08, 2017, 01:49:36 PM »
That's really scary, glad to hear it was overturned - if it could happen in a case like this, then what about an adoption?  If you put a child up for adoption and the adopted parents run out of money, could this law allow them to go after the birth parents for money?
Once an adoption has gone through it changes the legal position: legally the child is the child of the adoptive family not the birth family, so no.


In the case about the sperm donor, the judge ruled that the welfare of the child exceeds any written agreements. I don't recall the reasoning the appeals court used to overturn the decision, but my guess is that they realized that this decision could destroy surrogacy.
The original decision might have had something to do with the fact that they found the sperm donor on Craigslist, and no doctor was involved. I don't see a reason to think this would happen in the usual course of sperm donation.

I looked the case up and you are correct. It was because they didn't use a licensed physician.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article337100/Judge-rules-that-Kansan-who-provided-sperm-to-lesbian-couple-owes-child-support.html

That said I still think the judge's reasoning was wrong and am glad that it was overturned on appeal.

mm1970

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4416
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3055 on: June 08, 2017, 02:10:06 PM »
I am really surprised to hear so many Americans have the opinion that in case of a serious illness, people should separate to save the assets, so one partner can enjoy life and hopefully have lots to pass on.
What happened to personal accountability and responsibility or "In good and in bad times".

I am not suggesting that I wouldn't probably think about cashing out all the profits from a marriage and let the community pay for medical aid for the love of my life, but still, I am pretty surprised how common this thinking is...

This is kind of a tough one.  I've seen it in person sometimes too.  Like my spouse's middle class grandparents "sold" their house to their kids for $1.  When it came time to go into a home, it was protected.  It was their only inheritance - what little money was left was taken by Medicaid.  There are interesting parts about it all, when it comes to philosophy.  Really wealthy people can set up trusts and such to protect assets, and are unlikely to end up in a Medicaid home also.

But in some cases, like ones mentioned on here - what of the surviving spouse?  The surviving spouse could live 10,20,30 years?  I don't know how it works, but could Medicaid take almost everything, leaving the surviving spouse in poverty?

I mean, I also understand the desire to leave money to your heirs.  I really do.  But dang it, what's the point of having the money if you aren't using it to make yourself comfortable in your old age?  Is it okay to burden ALL taxpayers to leave your kids money?  My parents are dead.  My stepfather is still living, and his estate is reasonably large but under a million.  Sure it would be awesome to inherit.  But if he's got another 10 years to live I'd *MUCH* rather he use his money to hire a cleaning person, someone to mow the lawn, and a nurse (he's in poor health).  And eventually, if he has to go into a home (that's not really done in my home town), I'd hope he'd use his money to at least live in a nice one.  10 years in a home would probably use up the majority of his estate.  But so what!  He earned that money, I didn't.

AlanStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1519
  • Age: 37
  • Location: South East Virginia
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3056 on: June 08, 2017, 02:13:00 PM »
At the in-laws last night for dinner and they mentioned that their dryer broke, said when they opened the door it fell to the floor.  Looked at it for 10 seconds saw that the hinge catch was no longer hitting the catch point, bent the hinge back a little so it would catch...door fixed.  They said "O thanks, but the new dryer is coming tomorrow...and we paid Sears to take the old one away".  I tried not to look down on them but now their perfectly good dryer will be going to the scrap yard... and it drives me nuts...why are people so damn wasteful...
Could you have paid them the disposal fee and then resold the unit for more yourself? Also, it's possible that Sears will refurbish/resell  or sell it to someone who will, so it may not be a complete waste after all.

I got my washer/dryer from a guy that was a contractor for BestBuy to deliver appliances.  Seems lots of people are happy for him to 'dispose of' there nearly perfect 'old' appliances when they get new ones.  He then puts 10$ of parts into them and 20 minutes of time before selling them on CL.  300$ delivered & set up!
Be the person Mr. Rogers knows you can be.

BFGirl

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 612
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3057 on: June 08, 2017, 02:52:47 PM »
I am really surprised to hear so many Americans have the opinion that in case of a serious illness, people should separate to save the assets, so one partner can enjoy life and hopefully have lots to pass on.
What happened to personal accountability and responsibility or "In good and in bad times".

I am not suggesting that I wouldn't probably think about cashing out all the profits from a marriage and let the community pay for medical aid for the love of my life, but still, I am pretty surprised how common this thinking is...

This is kind of a tough one.  I've seen it in person sometimes too.  Like my spouse's middle class grandparents "sold" their house to their kids for $1.  When it came time to go into a home, it was protected.  It was their only inheritance - what little money was left was taken by Medicaid.  There are interesting parts about it all, when it comes to philosophy.  Really wealthy people can set up trusts and such to protect assets, and are unlikely to end up in a Medicaid home also.

But in some cases, like ones mentioned on here - what of the surviving spouse?  The surviving spouse could live 10,20,30 years?  I don't know how it works, but could Medicaid take almost everything, leaving the surviving spouse in poverty?

I mean, I also understand the desire to leave money to your heirs.  I really do.  But dang it, what's the point of having the money if you aren't using it to make yourself comfortable in your old age?  Is it okay to burden ALL taxpayers to leave your kids money?  My parents are dead.  My stepfather is still living, and his estate is reasonably large but under a million.  Sure it would be awesome to inherit.  But if he's got another 10 years to live I'd *MUCH* rather he use his money to hire a cleaning person, someone to mow the lawn, and a nurse (he's in poor health).  And eventually, if he has to go into a home (that's not really done in my home town), I'd hope he'd use his money to at least live in a nice one.  10 years in a home would probably use up the majority of his estate.  But so what!  He earned that money, I didn't.

Medicaid for long term care has an income test and a resources test.  The spouse still living in the community can keep all income in their name.  If the community spouse has little income, they can keep up to $3022 of the sick spouse's income.  I think the spouse living in the community gets to keep half of the joint resources (doesn't' matter if it is community or separate property) up to $120,900.  Everything else has to be spent down before Medicaid will pay for long term care for a sick spouse.  At least, this is how it works in my state.  Medicaid can go after the house later to recover the benefits paid.

So, yes...a spouse in the community could end up with very little left to live on for the rest of their lives if they didn't have much in the way of income.

iris lily

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2316
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3058 on: June 08, 2017, 07:33:22 PM »
I am really surprised to hear so many Americans have the opinion that in case of a serious illness, people should separate to save the assets, so one partner can enjoy life and hopefully have lots to pass on.
What happened to personal accountability and responsibility or "In good and in bad times".

I am not suggesting that I wouldn't probably think about cashing out all the profits from a marriage and let the community pay for medical aid for the love of my life, but still, I am pretty surprised how common this thinking is...

This is kind of a tough one.  I've seen it in person sometimes too.  Like my spouse's middle class grandparents "sold" their house to their kids for $1.  When it came time to go into a home, it was protected.  It was their only inheritance - what little money was left was taken by Medicaid.  There are interesting parts about it all, when it comes to philosophy.  Really wealthy people can set up trusts and such to protect assets, and are unlikely to end up in a Medicaid home also.

But in some cases, like ones mentioned on here - what of the surviving spouse?  The surviving spouse could live 10,20,30 years?  I don't know how it works, but could Medicaid take almost everything, leaving the surviving spouse in poverty?...



Yes, sort of. Depends how you define "almost everything" and "poverty."

When I last looked into for me and DH, my state would allow him to keep $80,000 plus this house plus his separate income stream. It might let him keep IRAs in his name, not sure.

Of our total assets, that isnt much. But for him it would be enough.

I once semi-planned on the divorce option, splitting all of our assets down the middle, but I have si ce figured out that my income plus $500,000 would keep me in a nursing home for ten years. I doubt I would last beyond that.

cheapass

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 462
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3059 on: June 09, 2017, 07:08:03 AM »
My bother in law is definitely a "relative who doesn't get it". We were talking about health insurance through our employers and he mentioned he usually pays a lot every year out of pocket before he hits his family deductible. Of course I suggested utilizing the HSA account.

His reply - "yeah but you gotta have money to live too"

What!!?! You're foregoing a 25% discount on your known annual costs just so you don't have to inconvenience yourself with planning ahead?

This is the same dude who, on Christmas morning, mentioned to me how he was going to be in debt for a long time after buying his kids a mountain of presents. Literally a mountain.


Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2881
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3060 on: June 09, 2017, 09:16:51 AM »
At the in-laws last night for dinner and they mentioned that their dryer broke, said when they opened the door it fell to the floor.  Looked at it for 10 seconds saw that the hinge catch was no longer hitting the catch point, bent the hinge back a little so it would catch...door fixed.  They said "O thanks, but the new dryer is coming tomorrow...and we paid Sears to take the old one away".  I tried not to look down on them but now their perfectly good dryer will be going to the scrap yard... and it drives me nuts...why are people so damn wasteful...
Could you have paid them the disposal fee and then resold the unit for more yourself? Also, it's possible that Sears will refurbish/resell  or sell it to someone who will, so it may not be a complete waste after all.

I got my washer/dryer from a guy that was a contractor for BestBuy to deliver appliances.  Seems lots of people are happy for him to 'dispose of' there nearly perfect 'old' appliances when they get new ones.  He then puts 10$ of parts into them and 20 minutes of time before selling them on CL.  300$ delivered & set up!

I felt bad doing this recently.  My 10y/o washing machine broke (would often fail to spin or agitate so clothes weren't getting clean or dry).  I hopped on the internet to see if there was a clear-cut fix, and some googling said "no not really".  So I got some tools and went down to take it apart, but something stopped me.  We were days away from having a newborn baby (and the resulting laundry needs) and I figured at 10 years old, even if I fixed this, how long is it going to last?  It could be another 10 years, or it could be six months, or it could be that I threw $100 in parts at it and couldn't fix it.  So I said fuck it and spent $350 on a new one.  Had we not been about to have a newborn it would've been a different decision, but I just didn't need that stress right then.  Oh well. 
"If I could get all the money back I ever spent on cars, I'd spend it on cars." - Nick Mason

Playing with Fire UK

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1468
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3061 on: June 09, 2017, 01:21:01 PM »
At the in-laws last night for dinner and they mentioned that their dryer broke, said when they opened the door it fell to the floor.  Looked at it for 10 seconds saw that the hinge catch was no longer hitting the catch point, bent the hinge back a little so it would catch...door fixed.  They said "O thanks, but the new dryer is coming tomorrow...and we paid Sears to take the old one away".  I tried not to look down on them but now their perfectly good dryer will be going to the scrap yard... and it drives me nuts...why are people so damn wasteful...
Could you have paid them the disposal fee and then resold the unit for more yourself? Also, it's possible that Sears will refurbish/resell  or sell it to someone who will, so it may not be a complete waste after all.

I got my washer/dryer from a guy that was a contractor for BestBuy to deliver appliances.  Seems lots of people are happy for him to 'dispose of' there nearly perfect 'old' appliances when they get new ones.  He then puts 10$ of parts into them and 20 minutes of time before selling them on CL.  300$ delivered & set up!
I felt bad doing this recently.  My 10y/o washing machine broke (would often fail to spin or agitate so clothes weren't getting clean or dry).  I hopped on the internet to see if there was a clear-cut fix, and some googling said "no not really".  So I got some tools and went down to take it apart, but something stopped me.  We were days away from having a newborn baby (and the resulting laundry needs) and I figured at 10 years old, even if I fixed this, how long is it going to last?  It could be another 10 years, or it could be six months, or it could be that I threw $100 in parts at it and couldn't fix it.  So I said fuck it and spent $350 on a new one.  Had we not been about to have a newborn it would've been a different decision, but I just didn't need that stress right then.  Oh well.

I absolve you of this behaviour. This is what money is for. For solving genuine problems for which money is the answer.

Daleth

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3062 on: June 09, 2017, 01:55:39 PM »
If the judge can "disregard all written agreements" for the welfare of the child, I don't see why they couldn't still go after the sperm donor, or for that matter the birth parents of the adopted child.   Why would a written agreement involving a doctor be any different than one not involving a doctor?

After adoption, the birth parents have no legal connection to the child. They have no more financial responsibility for her than some random dude at the bus stop does.

As for written agreements, the point of requiring a doctor is to make sure of two things: (1) the conception really happened as donor conceptions do, via insemination rather than sex; and (2) the agreement predates the conception, so you know for sure that having the guy be only a sperm donor rather than a father really was their intention from the get-go, and they're not just trying to play the system by turning an "oops" pregnancy into an "I'll let you raise the kid by yourself with no hassle as long as you don't ask me for any money."

Daleth

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3063 on: June 09, 2017, 01:58:43 PM »
Like my spouse's middle class grandparents "sold" their house to their kids for $1.  When it came time to go into a home, it was protected.  It was their only inheritance - what little money was left was taken by Medicaid.  There are interesting parts about it all, when it comes to philosophy.  Really wealthy people can set up trusts and such to protect assets, and are unlikely to end up in a Medicaid home also.

Medicaid has a five-year look-back provision. If your spouse's grandparents sold their house less than five years before needing to apply for Medicaid, that sale would've been overturned (or rather, the kids would've had to pay the home's value back to the grandparents, and the grandparents would've had to spend down that money before they qualified for Medicaid). The same is true of trusts and basically any transaction where money leaves the pockets of the person who later seeks Medicaid.

Daleth

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3064 on: June 09, 2017, 02:05:59 PM »
In the case about the sperm donor, the judge ruled that the welfare of the child exceeds any written agreements. I don't recall the reasoning the appeals court used to overturn the decision, but my guess is that they realized that this decision could destroy surrogacy.

It wouldn't destroy surrogacy at all. I haven't seen the decision but the news articles I saw said that the judge concluded both that the sperm donor wasn't the father, in part because he had little or no contact with the child, and that the mother's former partner was the other legal mother. So my guess is the ramifications of the decision are only relevant where the woman who gets pregnant with donor sperm has a spouse or partner she intends to be the co-parent. In other words once the kid has two legal parents (or people who should be considered legal parents), of whatever gender, the state can't go after a third person for child support.

As for surrogacy, the overwhelming majority of surrogacy in America is gestational surrogacy, meaning that the surrogate isn't the one whose eggs are used. The intended mother or an egg donor provides the eggs. That requires IVF; it's totally impossible to do without a doctor. So a case based on "there was no doctor involved so you're the dad" has no bearing on 99.99999% of the surrogacy cases out there.

mm1970

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4416
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3065 on: June 09, 2017, 02:56:08 PM »
Like my spouse's middle class grandparents "sold" their house to their kids for $1.  When it came time to go into a home, it was protected.  It was their only inheritance - what little money was left was taken by Medicaid.  There are interesting parts about it all, when it comes to philosophy.  Really wealthy people can set up trusts and such to protect assets, and are unlikely to end up in a Medicaid home also.

Medicaid has a five-year look-back provision. If your spouse's grandparents sold their house less than five years before needing to apply for Medicaid, that sale would've been overturned (or rather, the kids would've had to pay the home's value back to the grandparents, and the grandparents would've had to spend down that money before they qualified for Medicaid). The same is true of trusts and basically any transaction where money leaves the pockets of the person who later seeks Medicaid.
It was way more than 5 years.  Probably at least 10, if not 20.

Guava

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 191
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3066 on: June 12, 2017, 10:09:42 AM »
It appears relative's disability through her employer was cancelled. We don't know specifics about their situation but have been able to gather that they gross at least $15k between his job, her disability, and the child support payments they get. We are guessing her disability on the low end of $5k per month. They have no idea how to make ends meet. We live in a LCOL area. She only has 3 more years of child support. They never saw their impending financial disaster coming. They even recently refinanced their credit card debt into their mortgage...for the third time...

I am curious what will come next.

Well, that situation worked itself out and it turns out only her insurance was cancelled. They get to keep the paycheck. We thought this would scare them into savings more but we just found out they replaced a perfectly good truck (that we helped them get for a killer deal way below market value) for a newer diesel with higher miles. They don't even drive the truck they already had because shortly after the husband got a company vehicle. I guess some people will never learn...

WranglerBowman

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 132
  • Location: DMV
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3067 on: June 12, 2017, 10:24:50 AM »
At the in-laws last night for dinner and they mentioned that their dryer broke, said when they opened the door it fell to the floor.  Looked at it for 10 seconds saw that the hinge catch was no longer hitting the catch point, bent the hinge back a little so it would catch...door fixed.  They said "O thanks, but the new dryer is coming tomorrow...and we paid Sears to take the old one away".  I tried not to look down on them but now their perfectly good dryer will be going to the scrap yard... and it drives me nuts...why are people so damn wasteful...
Could you have paid them the disposal fee and then resold the unit for more yourself? Also, it's possible that Sears will refurbish/resell  or sell it to someone who will, so it may not be a complete waste after all.

I got my washer/dryer from a guy that was a contractor for BestBuy to deliver appliances.  Seems lots of people are happy for him to 'dispose of' there nearly perfect 'old' appliances when they get new ones.  He then puts 10$ of parts into them and 20 minutes of time before selling them on CL.  300$ delivered & set up!
I felt bad doing this recently.  My 10y/o washing machine broke (would often fail to spin or agitate so clothes weren't getting clean or dry).  I hopped on the internet to see if there was a clear-cut fix, and some googling said "no not really".  So I got some tools and went down to take it apart, but something stopped me.  We were days away from having a newborn baby (and the resulting laundry needs) and I figured at 10 years old, even if I fixed this, how long is it going to last?  It could be another 10 years, or it could be six months, or it could be that I threw $100 in parts at it and couldn't fix it.  So I said fuck it and spent $350 on a new one.  Had we not been about to have a newborn it would've been a different decision, but I just didn't need that stress right then.  Oh well.

I absolve you of this behaviour. This is what money is for. For solving genuine problems for which money is the answer.

Yes, I could have saved this dryer from the scrap yard but I have so much going on with work, a newborn, farming, a hundred hobbies, etc...  I needed to just let this one go, but it's still eating me up inside that it was wasted.  I just wanted to pick it up and list it for free so it goes to a good home and not the scrap yard.  I know someone would have been by within the hour to pick it up, I just literally don't have that time right now. 

To make the story even better the guys who "installed" the dryer did not connect the vent on the back so when MIL went to use it the hot humid air was filling her laundry room.  She called them about 2 hours after they installed it Friday morning and they said they couldn't get back to fix it till Tuesday...  I think they're kind of starting to understand why I do everything myself...
Livin off the fat of the land is the life for me.

Cassie

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3658
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3068 on: June 14, 2017, 02:12:47 PM »
Medicaid rules vary by state. It used to totally impoverish the surviving spouse but some protections have been added.

iris lily

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2316
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3069 on: June 14, 2017, 04:10:43 PM »
Like my spouse's middle class grandparents "sold" their house to their kids for $1.  When it came time to go into a home, it was protected.  It was their only inheritance - what little money was left was taken by Medicaid.  There are interesting parts about it all, when it comes to philosophy.  Really wealthy people can set up trusts and such to protect assets, and are unlikely to end up in a Medicaid home also.

Medicaid has a five-year look-back provision. If your spouse's grandparents sold their house less than five years before needing to apply for Medicaid, that sale would've been overturned (or rather, the kids would've had to pay the home's value back to the grandparents, and the grandparents would've had to spend down that money before they qualified for Medicaid). The same is true of trusts and basically any transaction where money leaves the pockets of the person who later seeks Medicaid.
It was way more than 5 years.  Probably at least 10, if not 20.

Not all states act on taking assets. also, if it was that long ago the lookback period could have been different.Or non existant.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1444
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3070 on: June 14, 2017, 07:45:54 PM »
In the case about the sperm donor, the judge ruled that the welfare of the child exceeds any written agreements. I don't recall the reasoning the appeals court used to overturn the decision, but my guess is that they realized that this decision could destroy surrogacy.

It wouldn't destroy surrogacy at all. I haven't seen the decision but the news articles I saw said that the judge concluded both that the sperm donor wasn't the father, in part because he had little or no contact with the child, and that the mother's former partner was the other legal mother. So my guess is the ramifications of the decision are only relevant where the woman who gets pregnant with donor sperm has a spouse or partner she intends to be the co-parent. In other words once the kid has two legal parents (or people who should be considered legal parents), of whatever gender, the state can't go after a third person for child support.

As for surrogacy, the overwhelming majority of surrogacy in America is gestational surrogacy, meaning that the surrogate isn't the one whose eggs are used. The intended mother or an egg donor provides the eggs. That requires IVF; it's totally impossible to do without a doctor. So a case based on "there was no doctor involved so you're the dad" has no bearing on 99.99999% of the surrogacy cases out there.

Good news or bad news for poly groups, though?
I squeak softly, but carry a big schtick.

kayvent

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 421
  • Location: Canada
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3071 on: June 16, 2017, 05:50:11 PM »
In the case about the sperm donor, the judge ruled that the welfare of the child exceeds any written agreements. I don't recall the reasoning the appeals court used to overturn the decision, but my guess is that they realized that this decision could destroy surrogacy.

It wouldn't destroy surrogacy at all. I haven't seen the decision but the news articles I saw said that the judge concluded both that the sperm donor wasn't the father, in part because he had little or no contact with the child, and that the mother's former partner was the other legal mother. So my guess is the ramifications of the decision are only relevant where the woman who gets pregnant with donor sperm has a spouse or partner she intends to be the co-parent. In other words once the kid has two legal parents (or people who should be considered legal parents), of whatever gender, the state can't go after a third person for child support.

As for surrogacy, the overwhelming majority of surrogacy in America is gestational surrogacy, meaning that the surrogate isn't the one whose eggs are used. The intended mother or an egg donor provides the eggs. That requires IVF; it's totally impossible to do without a doctor. So a case based on "there was no doctor involved so you're the dad" has no bearing on 99.99999% of the surrogacy cases out there.

Good news or bad news for poly groups, though?

Tangentially related. In my province of Canada if a man has primary custody, the biological mother doesn't work, and the biological mother has a husband or common-law partner who does, the spouse/partner of the non-custodial parent has to pay child support.

BTDretire

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1179
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3072 on: June 17, 2017, 10:41:07 AM »
I just need to vent.....I have a brother who moved to a lower COL area to start a family - proceeded to buy a $300k McMansion because they "need" the space for said future family + "need" to be in the absolute best school district. This on top of owning 2 10 year old vehicles purchased a few years back with 10 year loans + over $100k in student loans  (but they will be forgiven in 20 years so it doesn't matter), $30k in CC debt. OMG!

They didn't even get approved for the full $300k mortgage because of debt + income levels (probably $90k a year combined) so they borrowed $100k from family (NOT ME!). I get heart palpitations thinking about their financial situation while they sip on $10 cocktails every weekend and splurge constantly on lattes.  How on earth did we come from the same family?

I feel this way about my sister (HOW are we related?) when it comes to finances. She and her husband just think it's an income problem. When I have tried to point out that it's primarily a spending problem, I get very little traction. The good news is, their income is on the upswing, they're getting caught up on bills and *should* be able to start paying back the 16k they owe me pretty soon... sigh. Let's hope that some shiny new thing or food delivery service doesn't take precedence.

 OH! you missed a chance to point out the 16K is one of the bills the need to get caught up on.

BTDretire

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1179
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3073 on: June 17, 2017, 11:43:39 AM »
I mean, I also understand the desire to leave money to your heirs.  I really do.  But dang it, what's the point of having the money if you aren't using it to make yourself comfortable in your old age?  Is it okay to burden ALL taxpayers to leave your kids money? 
I understand and basically agree that you shouldn't be able shift the burden to taxpayers,
On the other hand,
What if you have two families that average $49,000 as yearly income, both families have two kids.
 Over 35 years one couple lives frugaly and saves $1.2 million, the other buys a higher cost home,
eats out often, vacations,  buys new cars,and spends their money on unneeded items.

 Why should the frugal family get any less government benefits than the wasteful family?
Why subsidize those that waste their income?

Step37

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 106
  • Age: 43
  • Location: AB, Canada
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3074 on: June 17, 2017, 03:18:34 PM »
[quote author=Step37 link=topic=31172.msg1564963#msg1564963 date=1495679826

I feel this way about my sister (HOW are we related?) when it comes to finances. She and her husband just think it's an income problem. When I have tried to point out that it's primarily a spending problem, I get very little traction. The good news is, their income is on the upswing, they're getting caught up on bills and *should* be able to start paying back the 16k they owe me pretty soon... sigh. Let's hope that some shiny new thing or food delivery service doesn't take precedence.

 OH! you missed a chance to point out the 16K is one of the bills the need to get caught up on.
[/quote]

Haha! She actually asked me last week what the total amount they owe me is, so I know it's not forgotten. But yeah, almost two years now. They must be working on a plan... meanwhile, the interest accrues.
"Not wanting something is as good as possessing it." ~Donald Horban

kayvent

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 421
  • Location: Canada
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3075 on: June 18, 2017, 04:06:58 AM »
I mean, I also understand the desire to leave money to your heirs.  I really do.  But dang it, what's the point of having the money if you aren't using it to make yourself comfortable in your old age?  Is it okay to burden ALL taxpayers to leave your kids money? 
I understand and basically agree that you shouldn't be able shift the burden to taxpayers,
On the other hand,
What if you have two families that average $49,000 as yearly income, both families have two kids.
 Over 35 years one couple lives frugaly and saves $1.2 million, the other buys a higher cost home,
eats out often, vacations,  buys new cars,and spends their money on unneeded items.

 Why should the frugal family get any less government benefits than the wasteful family?
Why subsidize those that waste their income?

Back in 2015 my provincial government released a budget that removed a certain benefit; basically they means tested an elderly medical care benefit. It didn't go over well and the government quickly reversed their decision.

It was a bad choice for the same reasons your listed, it penalized savers, and for me in particular I found it awful because without any notice a key part of the cost formula for retirees was changed.

bigalsmith101

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 452
  • Age: 30
  • Location: Lake Stevens, WA
  • Yes, that's really my face.
    • No Jobs, No Responsibilities, No Better Time then Now
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3076 on: June 21, 2017, 09:33:59 PM »
It's our three year anniversary today. My in-laws stopped by while we were out and left a bottle of champagne and a card. Inside the card was a $100 MasterCard gift card. It costs $6 to activate it (they paid that fee). They are very generous, but why waste money that way??? Really. Just dumb.
I spent the first 6 years of "real" life in a self imposed semi retirement, to secure a lifetime of stories. Now it's time to secure the next lifetime through the badassity of FI.

"I achieved such a high level of badassity I just don't realize how normal people miss the whole process." --Le Barbu

marielle

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
  • Age: 24
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3077 on: June 22, 2017, 06:23:15 AM »
It's our three year anniversary today. My in-laws stopped by while we were out and left a bottle of champagne and a card. Inside the card was a $100 MasterCard gift card. It costs $6 to activate it (they paid that fee). They are very generous, but why waste money that way??? Really. Just dumb.

My (future) in-laws did the same thing. My boyfriend and I each got a $50 visa giftcard for our birthdays, it was $6 each to activate. I don't get it, because they're already at the store and could just get cash back!? I think it's more about appearances to them, giving cash would seem "improper".

RWD

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1383
  • Location: Mississippi
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3078 on: June 22, 2017, 07:32:36 AM »
It's our three year anniversary today. My in-laws stopped by while we were out and left a bottle of champagne and a card. Inside the card was a $100 MasterCard gift card. It costs $6 to activate it (they paid that fee). They are very generous, but why waste money that way??? Really. Just dumb.

My (future) in-laws did the same thing. My boyfriend and I each got a $50 visa giftcard for our birthdays, it was $6 each to activate. I don't get it, because they're already at the store and could just get cash back!? I think it's more about appearances to them, giving cash would seem "improper".

Weird. You think it would be more impolite to essentially say: "We could have given you $56 but instead gave you $50 and burned the other $6."

cheapass

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 462
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3079 on: June 22, 2017, 08:20:57 AM »
It's our three year anniversary today. My in-laws stopped by while we were out and left a bottle of champagne and a card. Inside the card was a $100 MasterCard gift card. It costs $6 to activate it (they paid that fee). They are very generous, but why waste money that way??? Really. Just dumb.

My (future) in-laws did the same thing. My boyfriend and I each got a $50 visa giftcard for our birthdays, it was $6 each to activate. I don't get it, because they're already at the store and could just get cash back!? I think it's more about appearances to them, giving cash would seem "improper".

Weird. You think it would be more impolite to essentially say: "We could have given you $56 but instead gave you $50 and burned the other $6."

I remember seeing a youtube video by a couple of economists who described how giving gifts in general is a very inefficient exercise. If a relative and I exchange gifts worth $50 and I receive something I would have only paid $20 or $25 or maybe $0 for, well shit I just lost money. It seems that giving gifts is more about the procedure and ritual than anything else.

Really, I'd just prefer to have cash. Or VTSAX. So I can grow my "freedom fund" faster.

zolotiyeruki

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3080 on: June 22, 2017, 10:43:53 AM »
I remember seeing a youtube video by a couple of economists who described how giving gifts in general is a very inefficient exercise. If a relative and I exchange gifts worth $50 and I receive something I would have only paid $20 or $25 or maybe $0 for, well shit I just lost money. It seems that giving gifts is more about the procedure and ritual than anything else.

Really, I'd just prefer to have cash. Or VTSAX. So I can grow my "freedom fund" faster.
It's absolutely correct, to the point where DW and I don't bother with anniversary/Valentine's Day/Mother's Day/Father's Day gifts, and are very careful about Christmas and birthdays.  Among me and my siblings, we rotate gift giving each year, and several people have started either A) giving the gift of time (i.e. I'm coming to your house to do whatever you need for a few days, whether it be helping finish your basement, mowing the lawn, washing your dishes, babysitting the kids, whatever), or B) asking specifically what gifts would be appreciated, or C) gifting a (pre-approved) membership to a museum/zoo/aquarium/other attraction.

mtn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1214
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3081 on: June 22, 2017, 11:30:14 AM »
I remember seeing a youtube video by a couple of economists who described how giving gifts in general is a very inefficient exercise. If a relative and I exchange gifts worth $50 and I receive something I would have only paid $20 or $25 or maybe $0 for, well shit I just lost money. It seems that giving gifts is more about the procedure and ritual than anything else.

Really, I'd just prefer to have cash. Or VTSAX. So I can grow my "freedom fund" faster.
It's absolutely correct, to the point where DW and I don't bother with anniversary/Valentine's Day/Mother's Day/Father's Day gifts, and are very careful about Christmas and birthdays.  Among me and my siblings, we rotate gift giving each year, and several people have started either A) giving the gift of time (i.e. I'm coming to your house to do whatever you need for a few days, whether it be helping finish your basement, mowing the lawn, washing your dishes, babysitting the kids, whatever), or B) asking specifically what gifts would be appreciated, or C) gifting a (pre-approved) membership to a museum/zoo/aquarium/other attraction.

My brother has been doing this (A) for me recently--he's not been in a position to give gifts, but has been changing all my guitar strings, giving me coffee (free from his work, no he's not stealing), or put together my grill for me. Frankly, I appreciate that a lot more than something I'll probably just turn around or sell later.

My wife gets annoyed when I tell her I want a nice bottle of bourbon for my birthday or Christmas, but frankly that is what I want--something I wouldn't buy for myself but I still want.

Vindicated

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Indianapolis
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3082 on: June 22, 2017, 11:39:09 AM »
My brother has been doing this (A) for me recently--he's not been in a position to give gifts, but has been changing all my guitar strings, giving me coffee (free from his work, no he's not stealing), or put together my grill for me. Frankly, I appreciate that a lot more than something I'll probably just turn around or sell later.

My wife gets annoyed when I tell her I want a nice bottle of bourbon for my birthday or Christmas, but frankly that is what I want--something I wouldn't buy for myself but I still want.

The bolded part is key.  There are many items I tell my Wife I'd like, but would never buy.  So, when I think of them, I text her.  I hope she makes a list. :)

For Father's Day, she gave me money for a haircut.  She didn't like how I cut it myself last time, so maybe it was a gift for herself too!

I'd be careful about advertising taking anything from work, even if it's coffee.  Some places can be sensitive.
My MMM Journal: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/my-almost-perfect-life-experience/

"Remember that sometimes not getting what you want is a wonderful stroke of luck.” - Dalai Lama

bigalsmith101

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 452
  • Age: 30
  • Location: Lake Stevens, WA
  • Yes, that's really my face.
    • No Jobs, No Responsibilities, No Better Time then Now
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3083 on: June 22, 2017, 11:53:29 AM »
It's our three year anniversary today. My in-laws stopped by while we were out and left a bottle of champagne and a card. Inside the card was a $100 MasterCard gift card. It costs $6 to activate it (they paid that fee). They are very generous, but why waste money that way??? Really. Just dumb.

My wife's family is very gift centered. They love getting each other gifts. So fathers day rolled around the weekend before our anniversary, and everyone piled gifts on my father in law. My father wasn't even in town. I called him the day before and told him happy 38yr anniversary, and happy fathers day as well. I see him regularly, he doesn't need a gift and tells me as much.

We gave my father in law a case of golf balls and $40 cash money, so he can go golfing, which he enjoys doing. We're the only ones that will give cash. EVERY ONE of my in-laws will get a gift card and pay the fee before gifting cash.

To top it all off, there is a chance this gift card was purchased via a credit card that may or may not get paid off at the end of the month. It's insane.

And the two of us, are the only members of either of our families that is married with dual income, no children, and NO debt. I.E, we have more disposable income than any of them besides my parents. My only hope is that they feel good to have given us this gift, but $40 would have been sufficient! Or the 4 of us could have gone out to dinner, and all eaten for $100.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 11:56:06 AM by bigalsmith101 »
I spent the first 6 years of "real" life in a self imposed semi retirement, to secure a lifetime of stories. Now it's time to secure the next lifetime through the badassity of FI.

"I achieved such a high level of badassity I just don't realize how normal people miss the whole process." --Le Barbu

Dollar Slice

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2023
  • Age: 40
  • Location: New York City
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3084 on: June 22, 2017, 12:00:48 PM »
I'd be careful about advertising taking anything from work, even if it's coffee.  Some places can be sensitive.

OP specifically said it's free, not stolen. He probably works someplace like Starbucks, where free coffee is a perk.
...it's not at all alarming that people have started quoting me in their siggy lines.

Vindicated

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Indianapolis
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3085 on: June 22, 2017, 12:05:41 PM »
I'd be careful about advertising taking anything from work, even if it's coffee.  Some places can be sensitive.

OP specifically said it's free, not stolen. He probably works someplace like Starbucks, where free coffee is a perk.

I actually worked at Starbucks and that's what I was thinking of.  Coffee is free to employees while working, and they can take a drink with them after work.  However, handing out freebies to friends or family is a big no-no.

You get a free bag of coffee or box of k-cups every week, and I doubt anyone uses it all in a week.  So, if he's giving those weekly bags of coffee away, because he doesn't want them, I'd think that'd be acceptable.
My MMM Journal: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/my-almost-perfect-life-experience/

"Remember that sometimes not getting what you want is a wonderful stroke of luck.” - Dalai Lama

blue mutant

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 29
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Red Deer
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3086 on: June 22, 2017, 12:06:22 PM »

Tangentially related. In my province of Canada if a man has primary custody, the biological mother doesn't work, and the biological mother has a husband or common-law partner who does, the spouse/partner of the non-custodial parent has to pay child support.

What province is this?

marielle

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
  • Age: 24
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3087 on: June 22, 2017, 12:11:58 PM »
It's our three year anniversary today. My in-laws stopped by while we were out and left a bottle of champagne and a card. Inside the card was a $100 MasterCard gift card. It costs $6 to activate it (they paid that fee). They are very generous, but why waste money that way??? Really. Just dumb.
My wife's family is very gift centered. They love getting each other gifts. So fathers day rolled around the weekend before our anniversary, and everyone piled gifts on my father in law. My father wasn't even in town. I called him the day before and told him happy 38yr anniversary, and happy fathers day as well. I see him regularly, he doesn't need a gift and tells me as much.

We gave my father in law a case of golf balls and $40 cash money, so he can go golfing, which he enjoys doing. We're the only ones that will give cash. EVERY ONE of my in-laws will get a gift card and pay the fee before gifting cash.

Sounds exactly like my in-laws. They take gift-giving way too seriously. MIL specifically has mentioned in the past that she doesn't want gifts, she just wants to spend time with her kids. But then she got extremely upset and cried when she didn't get anything for mother's day from her son a couple years ago. Holidays in general are a BIG DEAL. We celebrated Easter with them and some family friends the Friday before Easter, then she was upset that we couldn't celebrate on Sunday as well. And she was basically making plans as if we had no choice in the matter. It's not, "Hey, would you like to come over for Easter?". Instead she says, "No one else is around on Sunday for Easter, so looks like it's just us!" Yeah...no. That's not how a respectful adult relationship works.

mtn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1214
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3088 on: June 22, 2017, 12:28:42 PM »
I'd be careful about advertising taking anything from work, even if it's coffee.  Some places can be sensitive.

OP specifically said it's free, not stolen. He probably works someplace like Starbucks, where free coffee is a perk.

I actually worked at Starbucks and that's what I was thinking of.  Coffee is free to employees while working, and they can take a drink with them after work.  However, handing out freebies to friends or family is a big no-no.

You get a free bag of coffee or box of k-cups every week, and I doubt anyone uses it all in a week.  So, if he's giving those weekly bags of coffee away, because he doesn't want them, I'd think that'd be acceptable.

Not Starbucks, but yeah--he gets a pound of free coffee a week and never uses all of it, since he works about 7 days a week at the shop and can make it better there than at home. I've been in there before and the owner has tossed me a bag when he figured out who's brother I was.

Vindicated

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Indianapolis
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3089 on: June 22, 2017, 12:51:52 PM »
I'd be careful about advertising taking anything from work, even if it's coffee.  Some places can be sensitive.

OP specifically said it's free, not stolen. He probably works someplace like Starbucks, where free coffee is a perk.

I actually worked at Starbucks and that's what I was thinking of.  Coffee is free to employees while working, and they can take a drink with them after work.  However, handing out freebies to friends or family is a big no-no.

You get a free bag of coffee or box of k-cups every week, and I doubt anyone uses it all in a week.  So, if he's giving those weekly bags of coffee away, because he doesn't want them, I'd think that'd be acceptable.

Not Starbucks, but yeah--he gets a pound of free coffee a week and never uses all of it, since he works about 7 days a week at the shop and can make it better there than at home. I've been in there before and the owner has tossed me a bag when he figured out who's brother I was.

Due to this new evidence in your favor, my investigation is now closed.  Carry on :)
My MMM Journal: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/my-almost-perfect-life-experience/

"Remember that sometimes not getting what you want is a wonderful stroke of luck.” - Dalai Lama

Dezrah

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 429
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3090 on: June 22, 2017, 01:27:26 PM »
I just want to join the “relatives give us terrible gifts” ranting. 

My FIL is the worst at this.  He keeps buying us toys.  Literal children toys.  Items include foam swords, Rock-em-Sock-em  Robots, a piano keyboard mat.  We have a 900 sqft apartment.  Luxurious by Mustachian standards but there is barely enough room for the crap we already own, never mind adding extra junk.  We’ve repeatedly asked him to stop.  We’ve even compromised by asking for consumables.  Nope, we keep getting Star Wars light-up pens and Etch-a-Sketch pads.  We’re in our 30s, no kids.  I’ve stopped being gracious about it.  Everything gets returned the day after.

Cookie78

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1593
  • Location: Canada
    • Cookie's Goals
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3091 on: June 22, 2017, 01:42:00 PM »
I just want to join the “relatives give us terrible gifts” ranting. 

My FIL is the worst at this.  He keeps buying us toys.  Literal children toys.  Items include foam swords, Rock-em-Sock-em  Robots, a piano keyboard mat.  We have a 900 sqft apartment.  Luxurious by Mustachian standards but there is barely enough room for the crap we already own, never mind adding extra junk.  We’ve repeatedly asked him to stop.  We’ve even compromised by asking for consumables.  Nope, we keep getting Star Wars light-up pens and Etch-a-Sketch pads.  We’re in our 30s, no kids.  I’ve stopped being gracious about it.  Everything gets returned the day after.

That would drive me mad! Is he trying to be funny and/or drop hints about kids? Brutal

marielle

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
  • Age: 24
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3092 on: June 22, 2017, 01:51:43 PM »
I just want to join the “relatives give us terrible gifts” ranting. 

My FIL is the worst at this.  He keeps buying us toys.  Literal children toys.  Items include foam swords, Rock-em-Sock-em  Robots, a piano keyboard mat.  We have a 900 sqft apartment.  Luxurious by Mustachian standards but there is barely enough room for the crap we already own, never mind adding extra junk.  We’ve repeatedly asked him to stop.  We’ve even compromised by asking for consumables.  Nope, we keep getting Star Wars light-up pens and Etch-a-Sketch pads.  We’re in our 30s, no kids.  I’ve stopped being gracious about it.  Everything gets returned the day after.

My boyfriend's grandma does this! She gets him and all the cousins literal kid's toys. Like kids RC cars. And no, not the awesome RC cars that people build as a hobby. We donate them on the Facebook freecycle, some people have been very grateful. He says one of the cousins actually plays with some of the stuff, which is enabling her... They're all 25-35 years old.

MoMan

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 71
  • Location: S.W. Houston, TX
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3093 on: June 22, 2017, 03:21:05 PM »
I hate giving presents, I hate getting presents, I hate the whole idea of presents. It's not a present if it's for a "present-giving holiday", it's just a piece of obligatory crap. It's not thoughtful, no matter what it is. You bought it because you have to buy something because that time of the calendar has rolled around again. The exchange of material goods at set times is a fucking ridiculous thing to do in this day and age, and it drives me ballistic that it's accelerating.
 

Wow, you are my soulmate!!

Several years ago, I decided I was fed up with the whole bullshit of Christmas gifts and stopped buying them cold turkey for everyone, including my wife. (I can do this because we don't have kids, otherwise my position would be untenable). Every year we would load the car/SUV to the gills and trek to MILs house. There, the tree would be mostly obscured because of the mountain of presents. I saw it as a gross orgy of consumerism. The nieces and nephews didn't give a shit what was in the box; it was merely the thrill of ripping the paper off and tearing the box open, do a cursory survey of the contents and then it's on to the next box.

Since I stopped buying, a number of people have eventually followed my lead (at least as far as not buying me anything) including the wife, my family, co-workers. For me, it is a massive relief not to have to think up some new crap to dump on someone else. I gleefully watch the news reports about frantic Christmas shoppers as the deadline approaches. It's great! (and it hasn't hurt my bank account either).
"He is richest who is contented, for content is the wealth of nature."

BDWW

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 258
  • Location: MT
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3094 on: June 22, 2017, 03:57:39 PM »
I hate giving presents, I hate getting presents, I hate the whole idea of presents. It's not a present if it's for a "present-giving holiday", it's just a piece of obligatory crap. It's not thoughtful, no matter what it is. You bought it because you have to buy something because that time of the calendar has rolled around again. The exchange of material goods at set times is a fucking ridiculous thing to do in this day and age, and it drives me ballistic that it's accelerating.
 

Wow, you are my soulmate!!

Several years ago, I decided I was fed up with the whole bullshit of Christmas gifts and stopped buying them cold turkey for everyone, including my wife. (I can do this because we don't have kids, otherwise my position would be untenable). Every year we would load the car/SUV to the gills and trek to MILs house. There, the tree would be mostly obscured because of the mountain of presents. I saw it as a gross orgy of consumerism. The nieces and nephews didn't give a shit what was in the box; it was merely the thrill of ripping the paper off and tearing the box open, do a cursory survey of the contents and then it's on to the next box.

Since I stopped buying, a number of people have eventually followed my lead (at least as far as not buying me anything) including the wife, my family, co-workers. For me, it is a massive relief not to have to think up some new crap to dump on someone else. I gleefully watch the news reports about frantic Christmas shoppers as the deadline approaches. It's great! (and it hasn't hurt my bank account either).

I think I have most of the family trained now. If you must get me a gift, make it consumable. My mother gave me a huge, like 14x11 x 4 deep, lasagna for christmas. It definitely ranked up there as an awesome gift.

Cookie78

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1593
  • Location: Canada
    • Cookie's Goals
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3095 on: June 22, 2017, 04:09:37 PM »
I hate giving presents, I hate getting presents, I hate the whole idea of presents. It's not a present if it's for a "present-giving holiday", it's just a piece of obligatory crap. It's not thoughtful, no matter what it is. You bought it because you have to buy something because that time of the calendar has rolled around again. The exchange of material goods at set times is a fucking ridiculous thing to do in this day and age, and it drives me ballistic that it's accelerating.
 

Wow, you are my soulmate!!

Several years ago, I decided I was fed up with the whole bullshit of Christmas gifts and stopped buying them cold turkey for everyone, including my wife. (I can do this because we don't have kids, otherwise my position would be untenable). Every year we would load the car/SUV to the gills and trek to MILs house. There, the tree would be mostly obscured because of the mountain of presents. I saw it as a gross orgy of consumerism. The nieces and nephews didn't give a shit what was in the box; it was merely the thrill of ripping the paper off and tearing the box open, do a cursory survey of the contents and then it's on to the next box.

Since I stopped buying, a number of people have eventually followed my lead (at least as far as not buying me anything) including the wife, my family, co-workers. For me, it is a massive relief not to have to think up some new crap to dump on someone else. I gleefully watch the news reports about frantic Christmas shoppers as the deadline approaches. It's great! (and it hasn't hurt my bank account either).

I think I have most of the family trained now. If you must get me a gift, make it consumable. My mother gave me a huge, like 14x11 x 4 deep, lasagna for christmas. It definitely ranked up there as an awesome gift.

Agreed with all of the above. Luckily my family agrees for the most part. No mother's/father's day or birthday gifts. Occasionally siblings draw names at Christmas for gifts, if we are all in agreement, or gift homemade consumables. Parents do give and get small gifts at Christmas. And lasagna would be a most appreciated gift!!

AnnaGrowsAMustache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 116
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3096 on: June 22, 2017, 04:32:59 PM »
I get that people don't want gifts, but there's also such a thing as being gracious and accepting a gift in the spirit in which it was given, whether you like it or not. Some of the posters here sound quite rude and ungrateful. Get over it. Your relatives are trying to how you they care in their own way. Much like you try to show them you care in your own way, which they might not always appreciate.

Better Late

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 89
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3097 on: June 22, 2017, 05:25:33 PM »
I just want to join the “relatives give us terrible gifts” ranting. 

My FIL is the worst at this.  He keeps buying us toys.  Literal children toys.  Items include foam swords, Rock-em-Sock-em  Robots, a piano keyboard mat.  We have a 900 sqft apartment.  Luxurious by Mustachian standards but there is barely enough room for the crap we already own, never mind adding extra junk.  We’ve repeatedly asked him to stop.  We’ve even compromised by asking for consumables.  Nope, we keep getting Star Wars light-up pens and Etch-a-Sketch pads.  We’re in our 30s, no kids.  I’ve stopped being gracious about it.  Everything gets returned the day after.

This is similar to my husband's family--they insist on giving toys and "gag" gifts. 

shelivesthedream

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1752
  • Location: UK
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3098 on: June 23, 2017, 02:04:59 AM »
I get that people don't want gifts, but there's also such a thing as being gracious and accepting a gift in the spirit in which it was given, whether you like it or not. Some of the posters here sound quite rude and ungrateful. Get over it. Your relatives are trying to how you they care in their own way. Much like you try to show them you care in your own way, which they might not always appreciate.

I'm the one who posted the anti-gift rant way upthread that people are quoting again. Present-giving just reared it ugly head again for Fathers Day this past Sunday.

I'll admit, I forgot it was Fathers Day until Facebook reminded me around 10am. Oh shit, I think, and order my father a book I think he'll like on Amazon prime as I'm going round on Wednesday and I can bring it then. I ring up my parents house and my mother answers. What's the first thing she says? "Oh, I just finished telling Daddy that no card or little parcel has arrived for him..." I explain that I haven't been able to post it (just moved house). I am forgiven. I get onto my father and say I'll bring his present round on Wednesday. "You don't need to get me a present," he says. I believe him. So I, who does not want to buy a present just because it's a particular Sunday in June, have to buy my father a present, who does not need anything else in his life or want anything that he cannot immediately buy for himself, in order to not upset my mother. This is the present-giving bullshit I am talking about.

I don't especially want to receive presents either. My ideal birthday/Christmas "haul" would be a book and a box of chocolates and some fancy shower gel. That's all the little luxuries I could want that would only cause delight and not hassle or future obligation to keep forever. But I have to ask for a "proper" present, and then keep it for at least a year, and provide updates on how I'm using it. Present-giving is 100% my mother's love language, but it is not mine and I don't like it when her desire to give me things causes me to have to do work. I cannot just get rid of things I don't really want because she would be hurt.

I am working on this. I am gradually de-escalating and de-personalising my family present-giving (to reduce stress for me). My brother and I have stopped doing presents. My parents either get a book or chocolates unless I happen across something I really know they'll like. I'm working on giving my mother other ways to show she cares and being demonstrably appreciative of them. I don't think I'm ungrateful - just extremely frustrated that my mother's wishes impose such obligations on all of the rest of us.

Rowellen

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 166
  • Location: Australia
Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3099 on: June 23, 2017, 02:25:29 AM »
I get that people don't want gifts, but there's also such a thing as being gracious and accepting a gift in the spirit in which it was given, whether you like it or not. Some of the posters here sound quite rude and ungrateful. Get over it. Your relatives are trying to how you they care in their own way. Much like you try to show them you care in your own way, which they might not always appreciate.

I'm the one who posted the anti-gift rant way upthread that people are quoting again. Present-giving just reared it ugly head again for Fathers Day this past Sunday.

I'll admit, I forgot it was Fathers Day until Facebook reminded me around 10am. Oh shit, I think, and order my father a book I think he'll like on Amazon prime as I'm going round on Wednesday and I can bring it then. I ring up my parents house and my mother answers. What's the first thing she says? "Oh, I just finished telling Daddy that no card or little parcel has arrived for him..." I explain that I haven't been able to post it (just moved house). I am forgiven. I get onto my father and say I'll bring his present round on Wednesday. "You don't need to get me a present," he says. I believe him. So I, who does not want to buy a present just because it's a particular Sunday in June, have to buy my father a present, who does not need anything else in his life or want anything that he cannot immediately buy for himself, in order to not upset my mother. This is the present-giving bullshit I am talking about.

I don't especially want to receive presents either. My ideal birthday/Christmas "haul" would be a book and a box of chocolates and some fancy shower gel. That's all the little luxuries I could want that would only cause delight and not hassle or future obligation to keep forever. But I have to ask for a "proper" present, and then keep it for at least a year, and provide updates on how I'm using it. Present-giving is 100% my mother's love language, but it is not mine and I don't like it when her desire to give me things causes me to have to do work. I cannot just get rid of things I don't really want because she would be hurt.

I am working on this. I am gradually de-escalating and de-personalising my family present-giving (to reduce stress for me). My brother and I have stopped doing presents. My parents either get a book or chocolates unless I happen across something I really know they'll like. I'm working on giving my mother other ways to show she cares and being demonstrably appreciative of them. I don't think I'm ungrateful - just extremely frustrated that my mother's wishes impose such obligations on all of the rest of us.

Gift giving is my mother's love language too. I hate it. She buys so much stuff for my kids that they don't appreciate or want. One year she bought my husband a ceramic cookie jar shaped like a golf bag (because my husband plays golf occasionally) and just ugh. We told her it got broken when she asked about it.   Suggesting no gifts offends her for some reason I'll never understand. I'm working up the courage to suggest no presents again. I really don't need anything. It's got to the point where we give them vouchers and they give us vouchers.  What is the point?