Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 780375 times)

engineermom21

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3000 on: May 24, 2017, 12:41:49 PM »

That is insane.  Sadly, I know people who would do this same thing.  Heck, my own mother was appalled when my daughter had a blue Easter dress one year.  "It's blue! She is a girl! She can't wear a blue dress!"  Uhhh, yeah she can.

Elsa does it.

And Cinderella. And Aurora sometimes. Merida's is a sort of blue-green.

Haha, true true!

engineermom21

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3001 on: May 24, 2017, 12:42:14 PM »
Two packages of rit blue dye in the washer on  my daughter's pink baby clothes (including a parka) and a seam ripper to take off ribbons and all my "girl" baby and toddler clothes were suitable for her brother.

That's genius!

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3002 on: May 24, 2017, 12:56:58 PM »
TIL some people have a phobia of homogenous mixtures of red and white. Does this person eat their steak not-pink?

Honestly, eating pink meat isn't that gay. :-p

MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3003 on: May 24, 2017, 01:02:25 PM »
TIL some people have a phobia of homogenous mixtures of red and white. Does this person eat their steak not-pink?

Honestly, eating pink meat isn't that gay. :-p

I was trying to think of a way of making a similar joke, well played!

jinga nation

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3004 on: May 24, 2017, 01:04:51 PM »
Amazingly the signal to noise ratio of FB has maintained a exponential decay for many years now. One would think that it would have to hit a floor some point; I am not sure that it wont go negative at some point.
Perhaps asymptotic towards zero?
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firelight

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3005 on: May 24, 2017, 01:15:00 PM »
I just need to vent.....I have a brother who moved to a lower COL area to start a family - proceeded to buy a $300k McMansion because they "need" the space for said future family + "need" to be in the absolute best school district. This on top of owning 2 10 year old vehicles purchased a few years back with 10 year loans + over $100k in student loans  (but they will be forgiven in 20 years so it doesn't matter), $30k in CC debt. OMG!

They didn't even get approved for the full $300k mortgage because of debt + income levels (probably $90k a year combined) so they borrowed $100k from family (NOT ME!). I get heart palpitations thinking about their financial situation while they sip on $10 cocktails every weekend and splurge constantly on lattes.  How on earth did we come from the same family?
That is Reason #1 why I don't use social media anymore. I don't want to know of the fake lifestyle portrayals of family members, I don't want to talk about them with my wife behind their back. The less I know the happier I am; ignorance is bliss. My father and MIL are compulsive worriers, I don't want my wife and I to be the same.
(I used to be on Twitter, Facebook, Whatsapp when they first came out. Over time it became reposts, retweets, endless barrage of ads. And harder to find actual original useful content. Negative comments from distant and close relatives thankfully made me go cold turkey on these platforms.)
I too am the black (or green) sheep of the family, saving and wanting to FIRE with a wife who shares the same ideals.

I wish it was just from social media. I get all of this from chatting with my bro a few times a week on the phone. Although after our chat yesterday he declared he doesn't want to chat about financial topics with me anymore because I'm never happy for him. I actually think this will be better for our relationship because I hate hearing about it.

Not trying to talk about them behind their back just stressed and needed an anonymous forum to vent on. I do love my brother dearly and I think it will definitely improve our relationship to leave finances out of it.
This! You'll see a marked improvement when finances are left out of relationships. It's very sad because I really want all of us siblings to be on the same page financially and help each other out with suggestions and tips but because of spendy siblings who think we judge them all the time, we need to have finances out of our talks. :(

Abo345

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3006 on: May 24, 2017, 03:12:22 PM »
SO and I do not really talk about money or jobs a lot since we both come from very non mustacian families who will never understand. Over the years they have gathered that we must be doing pretty well since we live in a nice neighborhood and have good jobs.

The things we hear from them:
Why don't you pay for this or update that? I know you can afford it

I can't believe you don't have cable/ unlimited data plans/ new phones/ gym memberships/ subscription box services!!! You probably make way more and you don't even have it!

I can't believe you don't go to a salon to do manicures or hair dye! If I can find money to do it I know you can

You're so cheap  you should get something nicer to treat yourself I don't know why you would you wouldn't just pay more for X?

You have the oldest/ cheapest car out of everyone. You know a payment on a new car is only so and so much a month, I can't believe you still drive around that old thing (car is less than 10 yeas old)

They are then upset when we go on multiple international vacations a year and are in disbelief we could ever afford something like that. They get upset weve had our house slowly remodeled over the years to look very updated in comparison to theirs. They were also in shock when one of us lost our job and was not asking any other family members for money to cover bills until finding a new job.

We have tried to explain that u don't get rich by giving money to other people, this was a strage statement another family member briefly thought about but then disregarded.

Step37

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3007 on: May 24, 2017, 08:37:06 PM »
I just need to vent.....I have a brother who moved to a lower COL area to start a family - proceeded to buy a $300k McMansion because they "need" the space for said future family + "need" to be in the absolute best school district. This on top of owning 2 10 year old vehicles purchased a few years back with 10 year loans + over $100k in student loans  (but they will be forgiven in 20 years so it doesn't matter), $30k in CC debt. OMG!

They didn't even get approved for the full $300k mortgage because of debt + income levels (probably $90k a year combined) so they borrowed $100k from family (NOT ME!). I get heart palpitations thinking about their financial situation while they sip on $10 cocktails every weekend and splurge constantly on lattes.  How on earth did we come from the same family?

I feel this way about my sister (HOW are we related?) when it comes to finances. She and her husband just think it's an income problem. When I have tried to point out that it's primarily a spending problem, I get very little traction. The good news is, their income is on the upswing, they're getting caught up on bills and *should* be able to start paying back the 16k they owe me pretty soon... sigh. Let's hope that some shiny new thing or food delivery service doesn't take precedence.
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ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3008 on: May 25, 2017, 06:36:24 AM »
My daughter has a blue shirt her cousin rejected because blue isn't for girls.

It's a v-neck so we only let her wear it as a pajama top because of the way it fits her.

I'm struggling with who the woman mentioned above thinks a blue Easter dress is made for, if not a girl.

engineermom21

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3009 on: May 25, 2017, 07:43:18 AM »
My daughter has a blue shirt her cousin rejected because blue isn't for girls.

It's a v-neck so we only let her wear it as a pajama top because of the way it fits her.

I'm struggling with who the woman mentioned above thinks a blue Easter dress is made for, if not a girl.

Ha! Right?! That was my first thought too when she said it.  It's an Easter dress...for a girl...  I mean, I'm all for boys wearing dresses if they want to, but I don't think that's who the designer had in mind when they made the dress.

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3010 on: May 25, 2017, 08:22:07 AM »
TIL some people have a phobia of homogenous mixtures of red and white. Does this person eat their steak not-pink?

Honestly, eating pink meat isn't that gay. :-p

I was trying to think of a way of making a similar joke, well played!

haha, thanks man.

Guava

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3011 on: May 26, 2017, 03:58:46 PM »
This is kind of a rant for me about my ridiculous family. My grandparents both have some degree of mental health issues that have recently spiraled out of control. I just found out that over the last 6 months my grandmother has racked up over $12k in credit card debt. I was speechless. Like I can't even process how this could happen when the only expenses they have is a car payment and property taxes. The amount of new crap stuffed into that house must be insane. I dread going there to clean it out. On top of that, the house is in so much disrepair it needs to be condemned. Just waiting for the ish to hit the fan. Should be happening any day now...

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3012 on: May 29, 2017, 02:18:34 AM »
Two packages of rit blue dye in the washer on  my daughter's pink baby clothes (including a parka) and a seam ripper to take off ribbons and all my "girl" baby and toddler clothes were suitable for her brother.
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Linda_Norway

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3013 on: May 29, 2017, 02:40:06 AM »
This is kind of a rant for me about my ridiculous family. My grandparents both have some degree of mental health issues that have recently spiraled out of control. I just found out that over the last 6 months my grandmother has racked up over $12k in credit card debt. I was speechless. Like I can't even process how this could happen when the only expenses they have is a car payment and property taxes. The amount of new crap stuffed into that house must be insane. I dread going there to clean it out. On top of that, the house is in so much disrepair it needs to be condemned. Just waiting for the ish to hit the fan. Should be happening any day now...

This sounds like your grandmother suddenly might have gotten some addiction, like playing online casino or something completely different. Maybe you should go over there and ask her out and try to stop it.

Goldielocks

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3014 on: May 29, 2017, 12:25:58 PM »
This is kind of a rant for me about my ridiculous family. My grandparents both have some degree of mental health issues that have recently spiraled out of control. I just found out that over the last 6 months my grandmother has racked up over $12k in credit card debt. I was speechless. Like I can't even process how this could happen when the only expenses they have is a car payment and property taxes. The amount of new crap stuffed into that house must be insane. I dread going there to clean it out. On top of that, the house is in so much disrepair it needs to be condemned. Just waiting for the ish to hit the fan. Should be happening any day now...

This sounds like your grandmother suddenly might have gotten some addiction, like playing online casino or something completely different. Maybe you should go over there and ask her out and try to stop it.

Whoo Boy.  DH's grandmother started to socialize with a few friends at Bingo.   She spent quite a bit, but was not nearly as addicted as her friends were.   It is easy to use up your cash for Bingo, then put your groceries and whatnot on credit.

Others get hit up for cash from other family members, then need credit cards to pay for basic expenses.

Guava

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3015 on: May 31, 2017, 10:50:50 AM »
This is kind of a rant for me about my ridiculous family. My grandparents both have some degree of mental health issues that have recently spiraled out of control. I just found out that over the last 6 months my grandmother has racked up over $12k in credit card debt. I was speechless. Like I can't even process how this could happen when the only expenses they have is a car payment and property taxes. The amount of new crap stuffed into that house must be insane. I dread going there to clean it out. On top of that, the house is in so much disrepair it needs to be condemned. Just waiting for the ish to hit the fan. Should be happening any day now...

This sounds like your grandmother suddenly might have gotten some addiction, like playing online casino or something completely different. Maybe you should go over there and ask her out and try to stop it.
She has had a habit for the last 30 years of shopping. She tells me it's entitlement. She worked hard so she is now entitled to whatever she wants. Also, one of her kids was expecting a six figure sum of money and the amount was settled about three months ago...grandma hit up her kid right away saying part of that money was hers too (it really isn't in any sane way).

ETA: we also don't have that kind of relationship where I could help her. I mean I try to but it always turns out with her threatening to call the police and me telling her to go ahead because then her house will get condemned. Then she says I will give her another stroke (no one actually believes she ever had the first stroke) and I say....well...lets just say it's bad.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 11:01:04 AM by Guava »

Linda_Norway

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3016 on: June 01, 2017, 01:48:07 AM »
This is kind of a rant for me about my ridiculous family. My grandparents both have some degree of mental health issues that have recently spiraled out of control. I just found out that over the last 6 months my grandmother has racked up over $12k in credit card debt. I was speechless. Like I can't even process how this could happen when the only expenses they have is a car payment and property taxes. The amount of new crap stuffed into that house must be insane. I dread going there to clean it out. On top of that, the house is in so much disrepair it needs to be condemned. Just waiting for the ish to hit the fan. Should be happening any day now...

This sounds like your grandmother suddenly might have gotten some addiction, like playing online casino or something completely different. Maybe you should go over there and ask her out and try to stop it.
She has had a habit for the last 30 years of shopping. She tells me it's entitlement. She worked hard so she is now entitled to whatever she wants. Also, one of her kids was expecting a six figure sum of money and the amount was settled about three months ago...grandma hit up her kid right away saying part of that money was hers too (it really isn't in any sane way).

ETA: we also don't have that kind of relationship where I could help her. I mean I try to but it always turns out with her threatening to call the police and me telling her to go ahead because then her house will get condemned. Then she says I will give her another stroke (no one actually believes she ever had the first stroke) and I say....well...lets just say it's bad.

OK, some people don't want to be helped. Best to not interfere then, as long as you are not in danger to inherit any debt she will make.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 07:41:36 AM by Linda_Norway »

Fishingmn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3017 on: June 01, 2017, 07:29:06 AM »
I do encourage everyone to help your elderly parents/grandparents who aren't as savvy with finances. We recently decided we needed to get more engaged with my 77 year old in-laws. They are smart people but old age has them slowing down in recent years with some health issues.

Yesterday I accompanied them to Verizon. They had been paying $140/mo for an out of contract phone plan. I got that reduced to $70/mo + added a 15% military veteran discount they had never known about.

We also found out that MIL is paying $800/year for a $10k term life policy and has been for years. Almost all of their investments are in cash or bonds.

They are getting by fine on SS and pension covering their expenses but if one of them needs nursing care they will probably be wiped out within 2-3 years.

It's hard to start these conversations sometimes, especially with privacy concerns and their embarrassment to try and cover up for their mistakes, but once we got past those I think they are happy for the help and the savings.

Threshkin

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3018 on: June 04, 2017, 04:02:25 PM »
I do encourage everyone to help your elderly parents/grandparents who aren't as savvy with finances. We recently decided we needed to get more engaged with my 77 year old in-laws. They are smart people but old age has them slowing down in recent years with some health issues.

...snip...

They are getting by fine on SS and pension covering their expenses but if one of them needs nursing care they will probably be wiped out within 2-3 years.

It's hard to start these conversations sometimes, especially with privacy concerns and their embarrassment to try and cover up for their mistakes, but once we got past those I think they are happy for the help and the savings.

This happened to my mom.  We was doing okay on her SS and limited assets until she had to go into a nursing home suddenly and unexpectedly.  At ~$8500/mo for the last two years her finances have been decimated.  We are now waiting for her Medicaid application to be approved.

mtn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3019 on: June 06, 2017, 07:40:17 AM »
I do encourage everyone to help your elderly parents/grandparents who aren't as savvy with finances. We recently decided we needed to get more engaged with my 77 year old in-laws. They are smart people but old age has them slowing down in recent years with some health issues.

...snip...

They are getting by fine on SS and pension covering their expenses but if one of them needs nursing care they will probably be wiped out within 2-3 years.

It's hard to start these conversations sometimes, especially with privacy concerns and their embarrassment to try and cover up for their mistakes, but once we got past those I think they are happy for the help and the savings.

This happened to my mom.  We was doing okay on her SS and limited assets until she had to go into a nursing home suddenly and unexpectedly.  At ~$8500/mo for the last two years her finances have been decimated.  We are now waiting for her Medicaid application to be approved.

My MIL has MS. I keep thinking that my FIL and MIL should get divorced, on paper. It could be a no-contest divorce, arrange it so that he gets everything (she makes more than he does and actually has a pension, which he won't). The house and cars are already in his name. They have good insurance and good care, but she's going to ruin them when she finally does need full time attention.

Either that, or start putting everything into a trust and transfer it to my wife's and BIL's (currently non-existent) trusts. But I don't want to deal with a house.

Maverick44

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3020 on: June 06, 2017, 07:49:09 AM »

My MIL has MS. I keep thinking that my FIL and MIL should get divorced, on paper. It could be a no-contest divorce, arrange it so that he gets everything (she makes more than he does and actually has a pension, which he won't). The house and cars are already in his name. They have good insurance and good care, but she's going to ruin them when she finally does need full time attention.

Either that, or start putting everything into a trust and transfer it to my wife's and BIL's (currently non-existent) trusts. But I don't want to deal with a house.

I've been trying this with my parents for a few years now.  My father has Alzheimer's and my mom won't divorce him on paper even though it would be best for both of them financially.  I know that it's hard emotionally for her, but in the end shouldn't he get the care he needs without wiping her out?

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3021 on: June 06, 2017, 10:19:49 AM »

My MIL has MS. I keep thinking that my FIL and MIL should get divorced, on paper. It could be a no-contest divorce, arrange it so that he gets everything (she makes more than he does and actually has a pension, which he won't). The house and cars are already in his name. They have good insurance and good care, but she's going to ruin them when she finally does need full time attention.

Either that, or start putting everything into a trust and transfer it to my wife's and BIL's (currently non-existent) trusts. But I don't want to deal with a house.

I've been trying this with my parents for a few years now.  My father has Alzheimer's and my mom won't divorce him on paper even though it would be best for both of them financially.  I know that it's hard emotionally for her, but in the end shouldn't he get the care he needs without wiping her out?

When I was very young my grandma got sick.  Her daughters discussed with there father (my grandfather) that her illness could cost him everything but he refused to divorce his wife.  In someways it is good that she died relatively quickly.  How stupid is it that 30+ years latter the same problems are still going on!
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Xlar

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3022 on: June 06, 2017, 06:08:51 PM »
My FIL almost bought one of these as an investment on a whim: https://store.melfisher.com/collections/authentic-atocha-coins-1

They randomly went to the museum and all he knew about them was what the sales person told him. They claimed the coins went up in value at least 6-7% each year. The only reason that they didn't buy them was because they didn't have enough left in their bank account after paying for the trip down there...

Lyngi

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3023 on: June 06, 2017, 10:28:54 PM »

My MIL has MS. I keep thinking that my FIL and MIL should get divorced, on paper. It could be a no-contest divorce, arrange it so that he gets everything (she makes more than he does and actually has a pension, which he won't). The house and cars are already in his name. They have good insurance and good care, but she's going to ruin them when she finally does need full time attention.

Either that, or start putting everything into a trust and transfer it to my wife's and BIL's (currently non-existent) trusts. But I don't want to deal with a house.

All the parents need to go see an elder law specialist attorney!!  My mom has Alzheimer's and my dad was wondering about protecting assets and a ton of other things.  In our state, my parents would have to basically split the assets fairly equally in a "divorce."  My dad would have to transfer a bunch of his  retirement accounts to my mom to make things "fair."  The other alternative would be to transfer their house and any non-retirement accounts into an irrevocable trust.  My dad would "lose control" over those accounts to the trustee (me, probably).   And then the trust would still be subject to the Medicaid 5 year lookback. 
     My mom's doctor said that maybe a "divorce" is the best thing.  If my mom goes into long term care, Medicaid will take everything.  They allow only a very small amount for the stay at home spouse to live on.   My dad deserves to be taken care of, if something were to happen, and he needed care too.    It is such a freaking mess that,  6 months later,  not one thing has been decided on.   

Feivel2000

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3024 on: June 07, 2017, 07:20:53 AM »
I am really surprised to hear so many Americans have the opinion that in case of a serious illness, people should separate to save the assets, so one partner can enjoy life and hopefully have lots to pass on.
What happened to personal accountability and responsibility or "In good and in bad times".

I am not suggesting that I wouldn't probably think about cashing out all the profits from a marriage and let the community pay for medical aid for the love of my life, but still, I am pretty surprised how common this thinking is...


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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3025 on: June 07, 2017, 07:26:36 AM »
I am really surprised to hear so many Americans have the opinion that in case of a serious illness, people should separate to save the assets, so one partner can enjoy life and hopefully have lots to pass on.
What happened to personal accountability and responsibility or "In good and in bad times".

I am not suggesting that I wouldn't probably think about cashing out all the profits from a marriage and let the community pay for medical aid for the love of my life, but still, I am pretty surprised how common this thinking is...

I don't think any of them are considering a real separation from their loved one's.  Just a legal one.  That way the person with Alz can get medicare, and the other isn't bankrupted by it. 
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Feivel2000

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3026 on: June 07, 2017, 07:43:04 AM »
I am really surprised to hear so many Americans have the opinion that in case of a serious illness, people should separate to save the assets, so one partner can enjoy life and hopefully have lots to pass on.
What happened to personal accountability and responsibility or "In good and in bad times".

I am not suggesting that I wouldn't probably think about cashing out all the profits from a marriage and let the community pay for medical aid for the love of my life, but still, I am pretty surprised how common this thinking is...

I don't think any of them are considering a real separation from their loved one's.  Just a legal one.  That way the person with Alz can get medicare, and the other isn't bankrupted by it.
Of course, I do understand. Still, the tax breaks in a marriage partially exist because of these liabilities for care between spouses.
Taking all the profits while society has take all the risks and losses will break the system pretty quickly.

I get it, game theory is to blame.

That's why I am also surprised that you so easily get off the hook. In Germany, a pure legal divorce would not help you.


marielle

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3027 on: June 07, 2017, 07:51:25 AM »
I am really surprised to hear so many Americans have the opinion that in case of a serious illness, people should separate to save the assets, so one partner can enjoy life and hopefully have lots to pass on.
What happened to personal accountability and responsibility or "In good and in bad times".

I am not suggesting that I wouldn't probably think about cashing out all the profits from a marriage and let the community pay for medical aid for the love of my life, but still, I am pretty surprised how common this thinking is...

I don't think any of them are considering a real separation from their loved one's.  Just a legal one.  That way the person with Alz can get medicare, and the other isn't bankrupted by it.
Of course, I do understand. Still, the tax breaks in a marriage partially exist because of these liabilities for care between spouses.
Taking all the profits while society has take all the risks and losses will break the system pretty quickly.

I get it, game theory is to blame.

That's why I am also surprised that you so easily get off the hook. In Germany, a pure legal divorce would not help you.

Not everyone saves on taxes from marriage. In fact, you could actually pay more taxes depending on income. If you have middle class income and each make equal pay, there is no savings or penalty on taxes.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3028 on: June 07, 2017, 08:08:19 AM »
Not a relative but a close friend story.   
Spent last weekend with a good buddy relaxing at my cabin, he's 58 years old been married a long time, and he shared the following unsolicited information.
* Before leaving went to get some money from ATM, but wasn't anything in the account so wife got him some cash somehow.
* They were upside down on last automobile, replaced it and now leasing a new car.
* One kid has over $200K in college loans and still not finished.
* They've lived in same house for 30+ years but still have a mortgage payment, due to re-fi's.

From outward appearance, this couple looks to be very successful; nice house, nice autos, clean cut, good kids, etc. but I'm guessing most everything they earn is going out the door in payments.
I'm hoping they have been participating heavily in 401K's because they aren't too far from retirement age.  Don't think either's job would have a pension.   

This is probably a snapshot of many American families.

jezebel

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3029 on: June 07, 2017, 11:55:46 AM »
Not a relative but a close friend story.   
Spent last weekend with a good buddy relaxing at my cabin, he's 58 years old been married a long time, and he shared the following unsolicited information.
* Before leaving went to get some money from ATM, but wasn't anything in the account so wife got him some cash somehow.
* They were upside down on last automobile, replaced it and now leasing a new car.
* One kid has over $200K in college loans and still not finished.
* They've lived in same house for 30+ years but still have a mortgage payment, due to re-fi's.

From outward appearance, this couple looks to be very successful; nice house, nice autos, clean cut, good kids, etc. but I'm guessing most everything they earn is going out the door in payments.
I'm hoping they have been participating heavily in 401K's because they aren't too far from retirement age.  Don't think either's job would have a pension.   

This is probably a snapshot of many American families.

I have friends who could very well be this couple in 20+ years.  Bought a nice, expensive house in an expensive neighborhood (at the "high end" of their budget) a few years ago - mortgaged 90% even with selling their prior home (against which they took out home equity loans every couple of years). 

Based on comments over the past few years, it is clear that they have been basically living paycheck to paycheck.  One spouse recently took a pay cut and now there's talk of moving, ostensibly to a less expensive property (but not according to the listings they've showed me), just so they can afford current bills, including private school tuition. 

Not much cash or college savings to my knowledge.  The strain is also hurting their marriage but they cannot afford counseling at the moment.

druth

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3030 on: June 07, 2017, 12:17:30 PM »
Not everyone saves on taxes from marriage. In fact, you could actually pay more taxes depending on income. If you have middle class income and each make equal pay, there is no savings or penalty on taxes.

And even when you are in the blue bands in that graph, where you are making significantly different incomes, you are probably missing out on a ton of government benefits by being married.

It might save us 3k in taxes to be married but the loss of my state health insurance would be a 5k+ burden.

infogoon

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3031 on: June 07, 2017, 12:53:06 PM »
That's why I am also surprised that you so easily get off the hook. In Germany, a pure legal divorce would not help you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand in Germany health care for an elderly person would not bankrupt their spouse.

Feivel2000

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3032 on: June 08, 2017, 02:00:15 AM »
That's why I am also surprised that you so easily get off the hook. In Germany, a pure legal divorce would not help you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand in Germany health care for an elderly person would not bankrupt their spouse.

Well, yes and no.
First of all, in Germany, we have a compulsory long-term care insurance. So every one is forced to prepare for long-term care in addition to the compulsory health insurance.
This insurance should, in theory, make sure, that an elderly person would not bankrupt their spouse.

But, a nursing home space for someone with Pflegestufe (level of care needed) 3 will cost roughly 3165€ per month while the long-term care insurance maxes out at 2005€ per month. The difference has to be paid (ultimately) by the care receiver or his relatives.

First the spouse has to pay.
If at the time of the divorce the need for care is known, the obligation to support persists. Even if the illness is not known, there is something called "Unterhalt in Not" (support in need/misery) what could lead to an obligation to support the ex, even years after the divorce. (Unterhalt in Not can be excluded during the divorce process, but you need to know about it to exclude it...)

If the spouse can't pay (or when the care has consumed all available resources), the children have to pay for the care for their parents. This obligation persists, even if you hate your parents and haven't spoken to them for 30 years.

Of course, there are limits. E.g, as son or daughter you don't have to pay if your monthly disposable income is below 1800€ (3420 if married).
But this protected income can go down to 770€ per month, if the care receiver is your spouse.

So an elderly person in need for care could bankrupt their spouse.

TLDR;
In Germany we are forced to prepare for long-term care. The obligation to support relatives is broad and hard to dodge. Relatives who need care can cost you thousands of Euro per year. If it's your spouse, it can bankrupt you.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 06:45:54 AM by Feivel2000 »


WranglerBowman

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3033 on: June 08, 2017, 07:58:21 AM »
At the in-laws last night for dinner and they mentioned that their dryer broke, said when they opened the door it fell to the floor.  Looked at it for 10 seconds saw that the hinge catch was no longer hitting the catch point, bent the hinge back a little so it would catch...door fixed.  They said "O thanks, but the new dryer is coming tomorrow...and we paid Sears to take the old one away".  I tried not to look down on them but now their perfectly good dryer will be going to the scrap yard... and it drives me nuts...why are people so damn wasteful...
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rockstache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3034 on: June 08, 2017, 08:13:23 AM »
That's why I am also surprised that you so easily get off the hook. In Germany, a pure legal divorce would not help you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand in Germany health care for an elderly person would not bankrupt their spouse.

The obligation to support relatives is broad and hard to dodge. Relatives who need care can cost you thousands of Euro per year.

That is horrifying. I'm so glad I can't be forced to care for anyone.

Feivel2000

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3035 on: June 08, 2017, 08:23:29 AM »
That's why I am also surprised that you so easily get off the hook. In Germany, a pure legal divorce would not help you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand in Germany health care for an elderly person would not bankrupt their spouse.

The obligation to support relatives is broad and hard to dodge. Relatives who need care can cost you thousands of Euro per year.

That is horrifying. I'm so glad I can't be forced to care for anyone.

But let me clarify: Only vertical relatives (grandparents <-> parents <-> children), not horizontal (brother/sister).


AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3036 on: June 08, 2017, 08:35:45 AM »
That is horrifying. I'm so glad I can't be forced to care for anyone.

Is complicated.  Should I contribute to the care of your parents when you could care for them?  This quickly gets into much larger questions.
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merula

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3037 on: June 08, 2017, 08:49:27 AM »
That is horrifying. I'm so glad I can't be forced to care for anyone.

Is complicated.  Should I contribute to the care of your parents when you could care for them?  This quickly gets into much larger questions.

This exists in the US, too, though. The Koch brothers and Warren Buffet are entitled to their Social Security and Medicare Part A benefits just like anyone else, subject to the requirements of those programs. Taxpayers also pay for lots of things for people who could afford them themselves: pensions for Congress aren't means tested, nor is continued Secret Service protection for former presidents and their families, despite the fact that all living former (and, heck, current) presidents could easily afford the cost of private security. (Except maybe Carter? He sold the peanut farm and I don't think he gets paid for Habitat For Humanity, so who knows?)

rockstache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3038 on: June 08, 2017, 09:05:21 AM »
That is horrifying. I'm so glad I can't be forced to care for anyone.

Is complicated.  Should I contribute to the care of your parents when you could care for them?  This quickly gets into much larger questions.

This exists in the US, too, though. The Koch brothers and Warren Buffet are entitled to their Social Security and Medicare Part A benefits just like anyone else, subject to the requirements of those programs. Taxpayers also pay for lots of things for people who could afford them themselves: pensions for Congress aren't means tested, nor is continued Secret Service protection for former presidents and their families, despite the fact that all living former (and, heck, current) presidents could easily afford the cost of private security. (Except maybe Carter? He sold the peanut farm and I don't think he gets paid for Habitat For Humanity, so who knows?)

Contributing to making sure that people don't end up destitute through taxes is a very different thing than becoming forced to use your carefully preserved resources care for your own relative who may even be your former abuser/neglect-er.

wenchsenior

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3039 on: June 08, 2017, 09:13:11 AM »
That's why I am also surprised that you so easily get off the hook. In Germany, a pure legal divorce would not help you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand in Germany health care for an elderly person would not bankrupt their spouse.

The obligation to support relatives is broad and hard to dodge. Relatives who need care can cost you thousands of Euro per year.

That is horrifying. I'm so glad I can't be forced to care for anyone.

Actually, there are a number of states with similar laws on the books, though usually not enforced, that allow the state or private nursing facilities to pursue forced payment from other relatives.  I read an article recently that speculated that as the U.S. population ages and the financial burden increases, more state might start trying to enforce these laws. 

Scary shit, indeed.

MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3040 on: June 08, 2017, 10:11:14 AM »
That's why I am also surprised that you so easily get off the hook. In Germany, a pure legal divorce would not help you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand in Germany health care for an elderly person would not bankrupt their spouse.

The obligation to support relatives is broad and hard to dodge. Relatives who need care can cost you thousands of Euro per year.

That is horrifying. I'm so glad I can't be forced to care for anyone.

Actually, there are a number of states with similar laws on the books, though usually not enforced, that allow the state or private nursing facilities to pursue forced payment from other relatives.  I read an article recently that speculated that as the U.S. population ages and the financial burden increases, more state might start trying to enforce these laws. 

Scary shit, indeed.

I read a case where a guy provided a sperm sample to a lesbian couple with the agreement that he would have no parental rights or responsibilities. Well the couple later filed for welfare and the state went after him for back child support. The trial judge agreed with the state and threw out the agreement he had with the couple. Thankfully on appeal that was overturned.

Feivel2000

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3041 on: June 08, 2017, 10:16:23 AM »
That's why I am also surprised that you so easily get off the hook. In Germany, a pure legal divorce would not help you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand in Germany health care for an elderly person would not bankrupt their spouse.

The obligation to support relatives is broad and hard to dodge. Relatives who need care can cost you thousands of Euro per year.

That is horrifying. I'm so glad I can't be forced to care for anyone.

Actually, there are a number of states with similar laws on the books, though usually not enforced, that allow the state or private nursing facilities to pursue forced payment from other relatives.  I read an article recently that speculated that as the U.S. population ages and the financial burden increases, more state might start trying to enforce these laws. 

Scary shit, indeed.

I read a case where a guy provided a sperm sample to a lesbian couple with the agreement that he would have no parental rights or responsibilities. Well the couple later filed for welfare and the state went after him for back child support. The trial judge agreed with the state and threw out the agreement he had with the couple. Thankfully on appeal that was overturned.
Abuse is one reason why you would not have to pay.

Child support is not for the mother, it is for the child. So I can understand why the biological father could stay liable. Even though it's counter intuitive. It is probably the result of old laws from times when nobody had considered this constellation as a real possibility.


Dicey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3042 on: June 08, 2017, 10:24:56 AM »
At the in-laws last night for dinner and they mentioned that their dryer broke, said when they opened the door it fell to the floor.  Looked at it for 10 seconds saw that the hinge catch was no longer hitting the catch point, bent the hinge back a little so it would catch...door fixed.  They said "O thanks, but the new dryer is coming tomorrow...and we paid Sears to take the old one away".  I tried not to look down on them but now their perfectly good dryer will be going to the scrap yard... and it drives me nuts...why are people so damn wasteful...
Could you have paid them the disposal fee and then resold the unit for more yourself? Also, it's possible that Sears will refurbish/resell  or sell it to someone who will, so it may not be a complete waste after all.
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jinga nation

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3043 on: June 08, 2017, 10:49:28 AM »
That's why I am also surprised that you so easily get off the hook. In Germany, a pure legal divorce would not help you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand in Germany health care for an elderly person would not bankrupt their spouse.

The obligation to support relatives is broad and hard to dodge. Relatives who need care can cost you thousands of Euro per year.

That is horrifying. I'm so glad I can't be forced to care for anyone.

Actually, there are a number of states with similar laws on the books, though usually not enforced, that allow the state or private nursing facilities to pursue forced payment from other relatives.  I read an article recently that speculated that as the U.S. population ages and the financial burden increases, more state might start trying to enforce these laws. 

Scary shit, indeed.

I read a case where a guy provided a sperm sample to a lesbian couple with the agreement that he would have no parental rights or responsibilities. Well the couple later filed for welfare and the state went after him for back child support. The trial judge agreed with the state and threw out the agreement he had with the couple. Thankfully on appeal that was overturned.
Abuse is one reason why you would not have to pay.

Child support is not for the mother, it is for the child. So I can understand why the biological father could stay liable. Even though it's counter intuitive. It is probably the result of old laws from times when nobody had considered this constellation as a real possibility.
Men need to stop giving their sperm away willy-nilly. Treat it like Intellectual Property.
(Pun intended in line above.)
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MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3044 on: June 08, 2017, 10:52:01 AM »
That's why I am also surprised that you so easily get off the hook. In Germany, a pure legal divorce would not help you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand in Germany health care for an elderly person would not bankrupt their spouse.

The obligation to support relatives is broad and hard to dodge. Relatives who need care can cost you thousands of Euro per year.

That is horrifying. I'm so glad I can't be forced to care for anyone.

Actually, there are a number of states with similar laws on the books, though usually not enforced, that allow the state or private nursing facilities to pursue forced payment from other relatives.  I read an article recently that speculated that as the U.S. population ages and the financial burden increases, more state might start trying to enforce these laws. 

Scary shit, indeed.

I read a case where a guy provided a sperm sample to a lesbian couple with the agreement that he would have no parental rights or responsibilities. Well the couple later filed for welfare and the state went after him for back child support. The trial judge agreed with the state and threw out the agreement he had with the couple. Thankfully on appeal that was overturned.
Abuse is one reason why you would not have to pay.

Child support is not for the mother, it is for the child. So I can understand why the biological father could stay liable. Even though it's counter intuitive. It is probably the result of old laws from times when nobody had considered this constellation as a real possibility.
Men need to stop giving their sperm away willy-nilly. Treat it like Intellectual Property.
(Pun intended in line above.)

Do you think that male athletes should think of themselves as being like racehorses, and should charge a stud fee? I'm guessing it is a better plan than whatever athletes like Adrian Peterson and Antonio Cromartie have come up with.

Raenia

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3045 on: June 08, 2017, 10:54:34 AM »
I read a case where a guy provided a sperm sample to a lesbian couple with the agreement that he would have no parental rights or responsibilities. Well the couple later filed for welfare and the state went after him for back child support. The trial judge agreed with the state and threw out the agreement he had with the couple. Thankfully on appeal that was overturned.
Abuse is one reason why you would not have to pay.

Child support is not for the mother, it is for the child. So I can understand why the biological father could stay liable. Even though it's counter intuitive. It is probably the result of old laws from times when nobody had considered this constellation as a real possibility.

That's really scary, glad to hear it was overturned - if it could happen in a case like this, then what about an adoption?  If you put a child up for adoption and the adopted parents run out of money, could this law allow them to go after the birth parents for money?

Cadman

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3046 on: June 08, 2017, 11:07:26 AM »
Quote
Could you have paid them the disposal fee and then resold the unit for more yourself? Also, it's possible that Sears will refurbish/resell  or sell it to someone who will, so it may not be a complete waste after all.

That dryer is as good as scrap metal. Mom and pop stores will sometimes repair and resell, but it's too big a liability for the major chains. It's a damn shame.

jillinsandiego

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3047 on: June 08, 2017, 11:27:36 AM »
At the in-laws last night for dinner and they mentioned that their dryer broke, said when they opened the door it fell to the floor.  Looked at it for 10 seconds saw that the hinge catch was no longer hitting the catch point, bent the hinge back a little so it would catch...door fixed.  They said "O thanks, but the new dryer is coming tomorrow...and we paid Sears to take the old one away".  I tried not to look down on them but now their perfectly good dryer will be going to the scrap yard... and it drives me nuts...why are people so damn wasteful...

My in-laws recently bought a new dryer because they were having problems with their old one...turned out they just needed to clean the dryer vent (i believe this was discovered when they also had problems with the new one...) Generally they are pretty smart with their money, but ugh, it was hard to bite my tongue on this one!

former player

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3048 on: June 08, 2017, 11:51:37 AM »
That's really scary, glad to hear it was overturned - if it could happen in a case like this, then what about an adoption?  If you put a child up for adoption and the adopted parents run out of money, could this law allow them to go after the birth parents for money?
Once an adoption has gone through it changes the legal position: legally the child is the child of the adoptive family not the birth family, so no.

Paying for elder care has been a debate in the UK election.  I do think that, outside the entitlements from taxes that everyone gets, people who can afford their own care should pay for it, but with a sufficient safeguard as to minimum capital/income disregards for family members not to be left destitute.  I don't have a problem with the state paying for care but putting a lien on the spouse's house which becomes payable when the house is sold or the spouse moves.  I don't see that there is any entitlement to have the state pay for care in order to preserve an inheritance.

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MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #3049 on: June 08, 2017, 12:23:09 PM »
That's really scary, glad to hear it was overturned - if it could happen in a case like this, then what about an adoption?  If you put a child up for adoption and the adopted parents run out of money, could this law allow them to go after the birth parents for money?
Once an adoption has gone through it changes the legal position: legally the child is the child of the adoptive family not the birth family, so no.


In the case about the sperm donor, the judge ruled that the welfare of the child exceeds any written agreements. I don't recall the reasoning the appeals court used to overturn the decision, but my guess is that they realized that this decision could destroy surrogacy.