Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 1430344 times)

ducky19

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1900 on: September 19, 2016, 12:56:51 PM »
+1

I had an ex girlfriend years ago who I helped finance furniture. When we split up, we had a payment arrangement set up where she would pay me every two weeks. Everything went well for the first couple of payments, then I had to start calling her. Soon I couldn't even get in touch with her through her family. At that point, I realized that was my insurance that I'd never have to see her ever again! I stopped hound

Granted, this being your brother you want to see him again. I definitely agree that you should just write it off though, but I don't think I'd continue to help him out anymore.

kayvent

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1901 on: September 19, 2016, 02:23:01 PM »
The thing is… if I were to do it all over again, I’d probably do the exact same thing, and that probably makes me a naïve idiot, but… well, no excuse, it is what it is.  I can’t have a six figure bank account and turn around and refuse to lend my family a few hundred bucks. I. just. can’t.  I do wish they didn’t rip my heart out every time I do give them the money though.

I don't think that makes you a naive idiot. I'd do the same thing. I think it is just a matter of priorities. To myself, debt repayment is a high priority. To some, money is fleeting and therefore debt repayment is lower than improving life satisfaction. In these circumstances, we just need to have grace towards our loved ones. They don't have malice. I think using the terms "enabling" or "enabler" is derogatory/unsuitable in this context but that is a different matter.

I'd either try not to care about the toy or, depending on how open the relationship is, express that my feelings were hurt that they prioritized a downpayment over a repayment.

By the way, until your post I had no idea what 4x4ing was.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 02:24:39 PM by kayvent »

Primm

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1902 on: September 19, 2016, 05:57:34 PM »
"A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.

The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman.

Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his 
journey.

The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them.

Two more hours passed, then three, finally the younger monk could contain himself any longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?”"

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1903 on: September 19, 2016, 06:21:39 PM »
I need a quick vent ... my older brother

Perfect, I need a quick vent about my brother-in-law! Not strictly a money rant, but a rant all the same.

In July he started working FIFO, and has to drive from his city to ours, then fly from our city to his work destination. He asked if he could stay with us the night before his early flight. Sure.

He asked to spend one night with us. He did not ask if he could spend one night with us every fortnight for the next six months. He just ... let us pick up on that along the way.

While it is fine that he stays, it is logistically difficult for us because his roster has him staying with us on the worst possible night for my work schedule (I could get home anywhere between 7pm and 10pm) and it's a night my husband is almost guaranteed to be travelling.

Given that no-one is likely to be home to let him in, we need to make other arrangements.

He gave me the first few dates of his roster (sometimes he's out there for a week, sometimes a fortnight), then stopped, even though he has his roster for the entire six months. In an email. Which he could forward me.

He just called my husband:
BiL: Hey, what are you doing?
H: Just leaving for the airport.
BiL: Oh. Is it still ok* if I stay at yours tonight? (*still ok implying he's even mentioned this to us!)

My husband agreed but did give him talking to about how it might be polite to give us more than three hours' notice that he wants to spend the night so that we can sort out keys, etc.

I appreciate that this is a new concept for BiL who doesn't even lock his front door. He lives in a beach suburb, so this is seriously not recommended, but he leaves it open so his mates can crash on his couch after a night out or an early surf.

The good news: regular visits from BiL means I'm getting him talking money and budgets. So far I've rolled over his super, discussed his budget, and pointed out ways he can make the most of his FIFO time.

I'm just mortified knowing he will let himself in to a pile of clean washing all over the spare/his bed and a floor that didn't get vacuumed on the weekend.

Sibley

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1904 on: September 19, 2016, 06:39:04 PM »

I'm just mortified knowing he will let himself in to a pile of clean washing all over the spare/his bed and a floor that didn't get vacuumed on the weekend.

Don't be. He's the one who's being rude here - he should have specifically asked if all this was ok. He should have given you way more than 3 hours notice. Maybe the fact that the house isn't "guest ready" will clue him into the fact that he's been incredibly rude and inconsiderate. And he has, and is. YOU do not need to feel embarrassed.

TomTX

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1905 on: September 19, 2016, 07:38:06 PM »
I have known some retirees that have went to more expensive home in retirement that did not have a ton of $. It makes no sense to me. We did the opposite.

I can see doing it for a more "elder friendly" house. Going to single story from 2-3, ADA compliant door widths, baths and such, going from high-maintenance suburb where you have to drive everywhere to an in-town location where you can walk to the library, grocery, etc.

Not ideal, of course.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1906 on: September 19, 2016, 11:49:59 PM »
The thing is… if I were to do it all over again, I’d probably do the exact same thing, and that probably makes me a naïve idiot, but… well, no excuse, it is what it is.  I can’t have a six figure bank account and turn around and refuse to lend my family a few hundred bucks. I. just. can’t.  I do wish they didn’t rip my heart out every time I do give them the money though.

This part.  The 1600$ is what?  .5% of your net worth?  Write it off as a loss in your head, and if you do ever get it back then Yay!  If not, you wont carry it with you.

I think this is often why you see the advice not to loan money to family, but if you are going to help financially, then just flat-out gift it to them.  Are the gift dollars that you gave your brother gnawing at you?  No!  The only dollars that are are the ones that you loaned and gave him the speech imploring him to repay when he could and not make you feel like the bad guy chasing after him.  I think what's really bothering you is not the money itself, but the concept that you did a favor and asked for a certain respect in consideration and your brother is not yet returning that particular respect.  At least, if I were you, that's what it would be for me -- feeling emotionally hurt that he accepted the kindness knowing it would hurt you to have to ask and yet he's put you in the position now of wanting to ask.  In fact, I did lend a good sum of money to one of my brothers with no timetable for repayment, and it was the long waiting time for him to even talk about start paying me back that started to eat at me -- like, hey, I'd do anything for my brother, so why can't he give me the respect of dealing constructively with me about this?  If there had never been any expectation of repayment whatsoever, not even an empty promise, then I think you'd feel more relieved.  It probably would be better for both you and your brother if you called these "loans" off by writing them off.

Also, I really like Primm's parable.

MyPlanBLife

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1907 on: September 20, 2016, 04:28:19 AM »
Dear Canuck_24,
This is just my 2 cents worth, (pardon the mustachian pun! LOl!) but I think you need to do a complete rethink on how you see this.  I think it's wonderful that you've helped your brother two times with significant gifts, one being the $1000 so they could sleep peacefully during what must have been a terribly stressful time for them, and the other a beautiful gift of skiing for his whole family for an entire season.  In my mustachian mind, $1600 is not a lot of money - why not reframe this and feel incredibly warm inside for the gift you've given your brother and his family, and LET IT GO.  Call him and tell him you love and care about him, and you look at the "moving money" as a gift from you to him, and also that you were so thrilled to treat his family to an entire ski season.
And FEEL GOOD in your heart.
The way I see it, for those of us who are FIREd or close to it, we are set for life. The money is there.  If you can bring a huge amount of financial relief (the $1000 for moving) or pure joy (the $600 for skiing) why not do it out of the goodness of your heart?  Let this go.  Feel really good inside that you are a kind, loving soul, and LET IT GO.

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1908 on: September 20, 2016, 06:36:55 AM »
I need a quick vent ... my older brother

Perfect, I need a quick vent about my brother-in-law! Not strictly a money rant, but a rant all the same.

In July he started working FIFO, and has to drive from his city to ours, then fly from our city to his work destination. He asked if he could stay with us the night before his early flight. Sure.

He asked to spend one night with us. He did not ask if he could spend one night with us every fortnight for the next six months. He just ... let us pick up on that along the way.

While it is fine that he stays, it is logistically difficult for us because his roster has him staying with us on the worst possible night for my work schedule (I could get home anywhere between 7pm and 10pm) and it's a night my husband is almost guaranteed to be travelling.

Given that no-one is likely to be home to let him in, we need to make other arrangements.

He gave me the first few dates of his roster (sometimes he's out there for a week, sometimes a fortnight), then stopped, even though he has his roster for the entire six months. In an email. Which he could forward me.

He just called my husband:
BiL: Hey, what are you doing?
H: Just leaving for the airport.
BiL: Oh. Is it still ok* if I stay at yours tonight? (*still ok implying he's even mentioned this to us!)

My husband agreed but did give him talking to about how it might be polite to give us more than three hours' notice that he wants to spend the night so that we can sort out keys, etc.

I appreciate that this is a new concept for BiL who doesn't even lock his front door. He lives in a beach suburb, so this is seriously not recommended, but he leaves it open so his mates can crash on his couch after a night out or an early surf.

The good news: regular visits from BiL means I'm getting him talking money and budgets. So far I've rolled over his super, discussed his budget, and pointed out ways he can make the most of his FIFO time.

I'm just mortified knowing he will let himself in to a pile of clean washing all over the spare/his bed and a floor that didn't get vacuumed on the weekend.

He is not thinking of himself as a 'guest', he is thinking he it is like one of his surf mates crashing on a couch for a few hours, no big deal in his mind.  What is the etiquette for his mates walking into this his house, dont wake me up, and dont drink the last beer?  Sounds like you two are coming at it from very different perspectives.  Is he staying in a room that you would otherwise use, would you consider properly renting it to him for some modest amount as a furnished room? 

Sounds like he is a miner who drinks and surfs, he does not care about an un-vacuumed floor :-)

BDWW

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1909 on: September 20, 2016, 11:48:06 AM »
I need a quick vent ... my older brother

Perfect, I need a quick vent about my brother-in-law! Not strictly a money rant, but a rant all the same.

In July he started working FIFO, and has to drive from his city to ours, then fly from our city to his work destination. He asked if he could stay with us the night before his early flight. Sure.

He asked to spend one night with us. He did not ask if he could spend one night with us every fortnight for the next six months. He just ... let us pick up on that along the way.

While it is fine that he stays, it is logistically difficult for us because his roster has him staying with us on the worst possible night for my work schedule (I could get home anywhere between 7pm and 10pm) and it's a night my husband is almost guaranteed to be travelling.

Given that no-one is likely to be home to let him in, we need to make other arrangements.

He gave me the first few dates of his roster (sometimes he's out there for a week, sometimes a fortnight), then stopped, even though he has his roster for the entire six months. In an email. Which he could forward me.

He just called my husband:
BiL: Hey, what are you doing?
H: Just leaving for the airport.
BiL: Oh. Is it still ok* if I stay at yours tonight? (*still ok implying he's even mentioned this to us!)

My husband agreed but did give him talking to about how it might be polite to give us more than three hours' notice that he wants to spend the night so that we can sort out keys, etc.

I appreciate that this is a new concept for BiL who doesn't even lock his front door. He lives in a beach suburb, so this is seriously not recommended, but he leaves it open so his mates can crash on his couch after a night out or an early surf.

The good news: regular visits from BiL means I'm getting him talking money and budgets. So far I've rolled over his super, discussed his budget, and pointed out ways he can make the most of his FIFO time.

I'm just mortified knowing he will let himself in to a pile of clean washing all over the spare/his bed and a floor that didn't get vacuumed on the weekend.

Do you live in a high crime neighborhood? Are you afraid of BIL stealing things?

To be frank, it sounds like you're a little uptight. Why not just give your BIL a key? Is his schedule more erratic than once every two weeks? It seems like it should be a fairly easy thing to plan around.

MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1910 on: September 20, 2016, 11:56:30 AM »
I need a quick vent ... my older brother

Perfect, I need a quick vent about my brother-in-law! Not strictly a money rant, but a rant all the same.

In July he started working FIFO, and has to drive from his city to ours, then fly from our city to his work destination. He asked if he could stay with us the night before his early flight. Sure.

He asked to spend one night with us. He did not ask if he could spend one night with us every fortnight for the next six months. He just ... let us pick up on that along the way.

While it is fine that he stays, it is logistically difficult for us because his roster has him staying with us on the worst possible night for my work schedule (I could get home anywhere between 7pm and 10pm) and it's a night my husband is almost guaranteed to be travelling.

Given that no-one is likely to be home to let him in, we need to make other arrangements.

He gave me the first few dates of his roster (sometimes he's out there for a week, sometimes a fortnight), then stopped, even though he has his roster for the entire six months. In an email. Which he could forward me.

He just called my husband:
BiL: Hey, what are you doing?
H: Just leaving for the airport.
BiL: Oh. Is it still ok* if I stay at yours tonight? (*still ok implying he's even mentioned this to us!)

My husband agreed but did give him talking to about how it might be polite to give us more than three hours' notice that he wants to spend the night so that we can sort out keys, etc.

I appreciate that this is a new concept for BiL who doesn't even lock his front door. He lives in a beach suburb, so this is seriously not recommended, but he leaves it open so his mates can crash on his couch after a night out or an early surf.

The good news: regular visits from BiL means I'm getting him talking money and budgets. So far I've rolled over his super, discussed his budget, and pointed out ways he can make the most of his FIFO time.

I'm just mortified knowing he will let himself in to a pile of clean washing all over the spare/his bed and a floor that didn't get vacuumed on the weekend.

Do you live in a high crime neighborhood? Are you afraid of BIL stealing things?

To be frank, it sounds like you're a little uptight. Why not just give your BIL a key? Is his schedule more erratic than once every two weeks? It seems like it should be a fairly easy thing to plan around.

I'm guessing because it is their house and not the BIL. For the scheduling, that should be on the BIL to manage as he's the one asking for a favor. I live in a very safe area and I always lock my door when I'm leaving.

If I were in their situation I would be very uncomfortable with the BIL having a key to the house as it appears he might forget to inform them and simply just show up.

BDWW

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1911 on: September 20, 2016, 12:47:25 PM »
I need a quick vent ... my older brother

Perfect, I need a quick vent about my brother-in-law! Not strictly a money rant, but a rant all the same.

In July he started working FIFO, and has to drive from his city to ours, then fly from our city to his work destination. He asked if he could stay with us the night before his early flight. Sure.

He asked to spend one night with us. He did not ask if he could spend one night with us every fortnight for the next six months. He just ... let us pick up on that along the way.

While it is fine that he stays, it is logistically difficult for us because his roster has him staying with us on the worst possible night for my work schedule (I could get home anywhere between 7pm and 10pm) and it's a night my husband is almost guaranteed to be travelling.

Given that no-one is likely to be home to let him in, we need to make other arrangements.

He gave me the first few dates of his roster (sometimes he's out there for a week, sometimes a fortnight), then stopped, even though he has his roster for the entire six months. In an email. Which he could forward me.

He just called my husband:
BiL: Hey, what are you doing?
H: Just leaving for the airport.
BiL: Oh. Is it still ok* if I stay at yours tonight? (*still ok implying he's even mentioned this to us!)

My husband agreed but did give him talking to about how it might be polite to give us more than three hours' notice that he wants to spend the night so that we can sort out keys, etc.

I appreciate that this is a new concept for BiL who doesn't even lock his front door. He lives in a beach suburb, so this is seriously not recommended, but he leaves it open so his mates can crash on his couch after a night out or an early surf.

The good news: regular visits from BiL means I'm getting him talking money and budgets. So far I've rolled over his super, discussed his budget, and pointed out ways he can make the most of his FIFO time.

I'm just mortified knowing he will let himself in to a pile of clean washing all over the spare/his bed and a floor that didn't get vacuumed on the weekend.

Do you live in a high crime neighborhood? Are you afraid of BIL stealing things?

To be frank, it sounds like you're a little uptight. Why not just give your BIL a key? Is his schedule more erratic than once every two weeks? It seems like it should be a fairly easy thing to plan around.

I'm guessing because it is their house and not the BIL. For the scheduling, that should be on the BIL to manage as he's the one asking for a favor. I live in a very safe area and I always lock my door when I'm leaving.

If I were in their situation I would be very uncomfortable with the BIL having a key to the house as it appears he might forget to inform them and simply just show up.

Interesting, see I'd give my BIL a key so he could just show up and not have to bother checking in first. In fact, I think he might have one. But then again, I trust him and I'm not real worried about it if he needs a place to stay.

Making Cookies

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1912 on: September 20, 2016, 12:56:28 PM »
Maybe the one BIL is a mooch and would abuse their courtesies.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1913 on: September 20, 2016, 01:32:03 PM »
I need a quick vent ... my older brother

Perfect, I need a quick vent about my brother-in-law! Not strictly a money rant, but a rant all the same.

In July he started working FIFO, and has to drive from his city to ours, then fly from our city to his work destination. He asked if he could stay with us the night before his early flight. Sure.

He asked to spend one night with us. He did not ask if he could spend one night with us every fortnight for the next six months. He just ... let us pick up on that along the way.

While it is fine that he stays, it is logistically difficult for us because his roster has him staying with us on the worst possible night for my work schedule (I could get home anywhere between 7pm and 10pm) and it's a night my husband is almost guaranteed to be travelling.

Given that no-one is likely to be home to let him in, we need to make other arrangements.

He gave me the first few dates of his roster (sometimes he's out there for a week, sometimes a fortnight), then stopped, even though he has his roster for the entire six months. In an email. Which he could forward me.

He just called my husband:
BiL: Hey, what are you doing?
H: Just leaving for the airport.
BiL: Oh. Is it still ok* if I stay at yours tonight? (*still ok implying he's even mentioned this to us!)

My husband agreed but did give him talking to about how it might be polite to give us more than three hours' notice that he wants to spend the night so that we can sort out keys, etc.

I appreciate that this is a new concept for BiL who doesn't even lock his front door. He lives in a beach suburb, so this is seriously not recommended, but he leaves it open so his mates can crash on his couch after a night out or an early surf.

The good news: regular visits from BiL means I'm getting him talking money and budgets. So far I've rolled over his super, discussed his budget, and pointed out ways he can make the most of his FIFO time.

I'm just mortified knowing he will let himself in to a pile of clean washing all over the spare/his bed and a floor that didn't get vacuumed on the weekend.

Do you live in a high crime neighborhood? Are you afraid of BIL stealing things?

To be frank, it sounds like you're a little uptight. Why not just give your BIL a key? Is his schedule more erratic than once every two weeks? It seems like it should be a fairly easy thing to plan around.

Because they agreed to ONE visit. Not to put him up once every two weeks, and definitely not to provide him with unrestricted on-demand access to their home. It's not their duty to "plan around" an extra burden they simply didn't agree to. Nor should they be required to give a key to someone that at least one half of the couple already thinks is around too much and is creating too much of a burden.

This isn't necessarily full-on mooching. It's definitely boundary pushing.

Every time someone is given an inch but takes a mile, it's because the person doing the taking either isn't clear about what's being given or what the boundaries and expectations are. That lack of clarity is sometimes deliberate. However if the giver doesn't spell out exactly what the limits are once he or she realizes there's a misunderstanding, the taker begins to redraw the boundaries.

In this case there's a bit of both going on. The guest was vague in his request and has become downright inconsiderate with his notice. But the hosts have also really failed to spell out what their expectations were once they realized that their version of reality didn't line up with Bro's.

The fact it was only supposed to be a one-time visit should have been said BEFORE the first visit, or at a minimum at the time of the second (uninvited) visit when the hosts realized there was a misunderstanding. This didn't happen. So even if the misunderstanding on Bro's end was accidentally-on-purpose, there's now a solid precedent supporting the idea that he's indeed invited to stay overnight before every single flight as a welcome guest. That precedent is entirely the hosts' fault.

The big talking-to, which was supposed to correct the problem, did not address the real problem. Instead of telling the brother the truth, which was that there'd been a misunderstanding, that his stays had become very inconvenient especially with the short notice, and that having him spend the night was no longer working for the family... the hosts told the guest it "might be polite" to give them more than three hours' notice. ((?!!!!)) THEY GAVE HIM PERMISSION TO CONTINUE.

The solution is not to reward Bro's less than considerate behavior by rolling over and giving him a key to their house. The solution is to have an intelligent conversation between themselves about what they are, or are not, going to run their home in the future. Then, once they've worked that out for themselves, they present it to Bro.

This couple needs to work out a few questions between themselves.

1. What part of the situation is unsustainable? Is it the fact he's in the house unsupervised? The fact he arrives on short notice with an irregular schedule that he knows about well in advance but doesn't communicate? The fact he's there too often? The fact there's a logistics burden associated with preparing the room and cleaning up after him? Is it the loss of privacy? The lack of ability to make other plans? The fact that it's a bit of a one-way street in which the hosts are putting forth all the effort for an interaction that isn't really satisfying or fun for them (because, let's face it, he's not exactly taking them out for a meal or treating them in any way to compensate for their effort)? Or is it the fact that it's now an ongoing situation with no end in sight?

2. Can the bits of the situation that are unsustainable be fixed, while still allowing at least some of the visits to occur, and while allowing the up-side (such as money management talks) to continue?

3. Can the fix be put in place without destroying the relationship (which sounds basically good in most other respects)?

If there's disagreement about which bits are unsustainable, the person who wants the visits to continue needs to be the one to pick up the slack and make any necessary accommodations.

Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1914 on: September 20, 2016, 05:00:47 PM »
Tom: They did not move to an elder friendly house.  At 70 they moved to a house twice the size of their old one.  They wanted a newer, bigger house even though they can't afford it.  Both homes were out in the burbs.

MilesTeg

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1915 on: September 20, 2016, 05:19:10 PM »
The thing is… if I were to do it all over again, I’d probably do the exact same thing, and that probably makes me a naïve idiot, but… well, no excuse, it is what it is.  I can’t have a six figure bank account and turn around and refuse to lend my family a few hundred bucks. I. just. can’t.  I do wish they didn’t rip my heart out every time I do give them the money though.

I have a firm policy of never, ever loaning money to friends or family. It never, ever turns out well.

I will, however, GIVE money to friends of family if they need it, and in the event at some point in the future they give me some money I would accept it.

But I never, ever loan money.

ender

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1916 on: September 20, 2016, 05:28:17 PM »
Interesting, see I'd give my BIL a key so he could just show up and not have to bother checking in first. In fact, I think he might have one. But then again, I trust him and I'm not real worried about it if he needs a place to stay.

Yeah, because being hesitant to give a key to someone who just randomly drops by and imposes without giving any advance notice is really weird.

I'd have a hard time trusting that BIL too.

moof

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1917 on: September 20, 2016, 05:36:02 PM »
The thing is… if I were to do it all over again, I’d probably do the exact same thing, and that probably makes me a naïve idiot, but… well, no excuse, it is what it is.  I can’t have a six figure bank account and turn around and refuse to lend my family a few hundred bucks. I. just. can’t.  I do wish they didn’t rip my heart out every time I do give them the money though.

I have a firm policy of never, ever loaning money to friends or family. It never, ever turns out well.

I will, however, GIVE money to friends of family if they need it, and in the event at some point in the future they give me some money I would accept it.

But I never, ever loan money.
+1! 
My jerk brother taught me long ago to desperately avoid mixing business with family.  After I sold him my old computer for very cheap I got hounded every time it crashed, or couldn't figure something out as if it was my fault.  Before long my brother's whining got so bad that my parents just bought him a new computer that was better than my new one I had just spent months saving up for (early part of a trend...).  After that I decided I'd never give out loans or mix finances with family members or friends.  I've found that some people are so taken aback by my offer of cash, but refusal to loan, that they withdraw their request.  Bizarre stuff.

iris lily

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1918 on: September 20, 2016, 09:45:48 PM »
Dear Canuck_24,
This is just my 2 cents worth, (pardon the mustachian pun! LOl!) but I think you need to do a complete rethink on how you see this.  I think it's wonderful that you've helped your brother two times with significant gifts, one being the $1000 so they could sleep peacefully during what must have been a terribly stressful time for them, and the other a beautiful gift of skiing for his whole family for an entire season.  In my mustachian mind, $1600 is not a lot of money - why not reframe this and feel incredibly warm inside for the gift you've given your brother and his family, and LET IT GO.  Call him and tell him you love and care about him, and you look at the "moving money" as a gift from you to him, and also that you were so thrilled to treat his family to an entire ski season.
And FEEL GOOD in your heart.
The way I see it, for those of us who are FIREd or close to it, we are set for life. The money is there.  If you can bring a huge amount of financial relief (the $1000 for moving) or pure joy (the $600 for skiing) why not do it out of the goodness of your heart?  Let this go.  Feel really good inside that you are a kind, loving soul, and LET IT GO.
This is great advice. And agreed, $1600 isnt a lot of money to make such a big  difference in the life of the BILs family.sometimes I wish I could get that kind of bang for the buck with all of my charitable sonations..

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1919 on: September 20, 2016, 11:48:42 PM »
Wow.

Thank you for taking on my case so passionately. I should have expected nothing less.

To clarify a couple of points:

- BiL stays in a guest room that we don't use but we've not long moved house so I'm still getting it sorted.

- I could leave a dead body in the bath and BiL wouldn't notice. He really couldn't care less about the floor, or standard of housework in general. I'm the one who minds.

- We will give him a set of keys on his next visit. Our spare keys reside with nearby friends for safe-keeping. Spares are hard to come by since we're renting (they have to be cut by the strata locksmith with permission from the owner). BiL has lost two wallets, his phone, and his motorbike keys so far this year, so I know the risks.

- My issue is more with the lack of warning and co-ordination of schedules than the fact that he is staying. My husband did scold him for that, and will hound him till we get a copy of his work schedule.

- I don't mean to come across as uptight. One of the reasons I like the heads-up is so I can stock up on his favourite beer and snacks, and make things a bit welcoming for him.

This isn't a huge drama, in hindsight. All was cool last night.

marty998

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1920 on: September 21, 2016, 01:46:47 AM »
Wow.

Thank you for taking on my case so passionately. I should have expected nothing less.

To clarify a couple of points:

- BiL stays in a guest room that we don't use but we've not long moved house so I'm still getting it sorted.

- I could leave a dead body in the bath and BiL wouldn't notice. He really couldn't care less about the floor, or standard of housework in general. I'm the one who minds.

- We will give him a set of keys on his next visit. Our spare keys reside with nearby friends for safe-keeping. Spares are hard to come by since we're renting (they have to be cut by the strata locksmith with permission from the owner). BiL has lost two wallets, his phone, and his motorbike keys so far this year, so I know the risks.

- My issue is more with the lack of warning and co-ordination of schedules than the fact that he is staying. My husband did scold him for that, and will hound him till we get a copy of his work schedule.

- I don't mean to come across as uptight. One of the reasons I like the heads-up is so I can stock up on his favourite beer and snacks, and make things a bit welcoming for him.

This isn't a huge drama, in hindsight. All was cool last night.

Glad it's no big blowup.

No matter how lovely people/guests are, it is always a bit intrusive when people stay over.

I always madly run around cleaning and tidying up before I know I have guests over... even when they show up unannounced I sometimes tell them to wait in the lounge/kitchen, so I can stash some of the mess away!


canuck_24

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1921 on: September 21, 2016, 10:07:01 AM »
Thank you all so much for all your kind responses.  I agree on so many levels with what you are saying, but I really needed to read it from someone else, y’know?  I DON’T mind the money I have given them, you’re right, it IS just the loans.  LeRainDrop’s comment really struck home with me, “I think what's really bothering you is not the money itself, but the concept that you did a favor and asked for a certain respect in consideration and your brother is not yet returning that particular respect.  At least, if I were you, that's what it would be for me -- feeling emotionally hurt that he accepted the kindness knowing it would hurt you to have to ask and yet he's put you in the position now of wanting to ask.”  YES! This!

So thank you all for helping me see that I’m not a lunatic throwing my money out the window.  It was valuable, and it wasn’t imprudent to help where I could.  I totally agree with iris lily’s comment  “sometimes I wish I could get that kind of bang for the buck with all of my charitable donations..”  I hadn’t seen it that way.  It was not a small sum of money, but in the grand scheme it wasn’t much to me.  It was a LOT to them.  I felt much more warm and fuzzy after reading the responses on here.  Loving the MMM community at the moment.

Something I didn’t expect to come from posting this rant, was that the responses also helped facilitate a really open conversation about all of this with my husband – we’re generally on the same page with financials, but issues like these we sometimes start to second guess ourselves and each other.  Now we’re back to being on the same warm and fuzzy page regarding the gifted money.

Also… an update regarding the “toy”.  Turns out it was necessity more than toy, but obviously a facebook post about a new 4x4 toy is more fun to write than “my vehicle got repo-ed, and I now need something for getting to work in the winter”, which is what actually happened (yes, they definitely could have gotten a more fuel-efficient, or smaller vehicle, but I’m not getting into that).  And that snapped me right back into realization that they didn’t have money to repay me or any other number of collectors that are still knocking at the door; instead of being angry about the money I turned right back around to helping brainstorm ways out of their current scenario and offering up more $ if we can't find a better solution.  Here’s hoping we can get them turned around and back on their feet over the next year or so!

LivlongnProsper

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1922 on: September 22, 2016, 11:56:31 AM »
My sister and BIL have had less than stellar finances when they first got together 20 years ago. My sister asked for me to look at their finances and make suggestions to improve on what I saw. I looked and found what typically is associated with the modern consumer society- credit cards, car loans, student loans, little savings. I drew up a budget and worked with her (BIL was not on board with my help) to try and improve their situation. They made some changes and progress was made on several fronts but as time passed we talked less and less about it until about a year later when it was implied they were better and didn't need any more help. Fair enough. They now have two kids and recently had my mother move in with them. Between the two of them I estimate they now make about 100k/yr based on hints and comments made. We visit them a couple times a year and they are always going out and seem to have seen every movie in the theater that has came out in the last 10 years. Mom recently visited and commented on my sister and BIL's poor financial habits. My sister had recently "bought" another new car because her 18 month old car had started making some weird noises and was running funny. I guess she has been rolling over the loans with each new car and now owes over twice what the latest car is worth. BIL's car is 2 years old and upside down as well. My mom is on social security and has a small pension from her ex husband. Mom is worried because she pays them "rent" each month just so they can afford their house payment. I knew they couldn't be doing great but was hoping they were better off than this based on their income upgrades over the years. I figure they are adults who have been shown the right path but they have chosen not to follow it. Sad.

Making Cookies

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1923 on: September 22, 2016, 12:20:11 PM »
Protect your Mom from them raiding her budget too. Don't know them, don't know if they'd do that but I know it happens in other families.

LivlongnProsper

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1924 on: September 22, 2016, 12:32:00 PM »
Protect your Mom from them raiding her budget too. Don't know them, don't know if they'd do that but I know it happens in other families.

That is the only reason I am considering stepping back in. I don't think they would raid her budget and if they did mom would rip them a new one I am sure.

MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1925 on: September 22, 2016, 12:37:11 PM »
Protect your Mom from them raiding her budget too. Don't know them, don't know if they'd do that but I know it happens in other families.

That is the only reason I am considering stepping back in. I don't think they would raid her budget and if they did mom would rip them a new one I am sure.

I'm glad to hear the last bit. Too many parents are getting taken advantage of by their kids.

kayvent

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1926 on: September 22, 2016, 06:06:42 PM »
Protect your Mom from them raiding her budget too. Don't know them, don't know if they'd do that but I know it happens in other families.

That is the only reason I am considering stepping back in. I don't think they would raid her budget and if they did mom would rip them a new one I am sure.

In case it is not obvious, raiding is not what you need to worry about. It is the incremental escalation that you should worry about. If someone is spending X$ more than they make, your mother giving them say .5X to stay afloat on their home may just mean they simply raise spending by .51X. Then the tale becomes "Oh my, mom we're a bit tight on money for groceries. Since we let you leave here so cheap do you think you could buy them every few weeks?" Then it morphs into her grandson Jimmy needing new skates for hockey.

The vikings failed to conquer Britain through raids. The British got India because they were simply present.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 06:09:19 PM by kayvent »

kimmarg

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1927 on: September 22, 2016, 06:55:53 PM »

the CRA rarely ceases to amaze me at how competent they are at being a decent organization.

My one experience with them was great too! I worked very briefly in Canada making around $2k. I was supposed to have to file taxes. I called them up utterly confused and they told me how to cite some tax treaty and get all my Canadian taxes back (so I could then claim income in the US and pay their taxes)  Nice folks!

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1928 on: September 22, 2016, 07:35:19 PM »
Protect your Mom from them raiding her budget too. Don't know them, don't know if they'd do that but I know it happens in other families.

That is the only reason I am considering stepping back in. I don't think they would raid her budget and if they did mom would rip them a new one I am sure.

If she's paying them "rent" but not living with them, I'd venture to say a raid is in progress.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1929 on: September 22, 2016, 08:27:07 PM »
Protect your Mom from them raiding her budget too. Don't know them, don't know if they'd do that but I know it happens in other families.

That is the only reason I am considering stepping back in. I don't think they would raid her budget and if they did mom would rip them a new one I am sure.

In case it is not obvious, raiding is not what you need to worry about. It is the incremental escalation that you should worry about. . . . The vikings failed to conquer Britain through raids. The British got India because they were simply present.

+1

With This Herring

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1930 on: September 22, 2016, 11:02:14 PM »
Protect your Mom from them raiding her budget too. Don't know them, don't know if they'd do that but I know it happens in other families.

That is the only reason I am considering stepping back in. I don't think they would raid her budget and if they did mom would rip them a new one I am sure.

If she's paying them "rent" but not living with them, I'd venture to say a raid is in progress.

It looks like she is living with them:

My sister and BIL have had less than stellar finances when they first got together 20 years ago. My sister asked for me to look at their finances and make suggestions to improve on what I saw. I looked and found what typically is associated with the modern consumer society- credit cards, car loans, student loans, little savings. I drew up a budget and worked with her (BIL was not on board with my help) to try and improve their situation. They made some changes and progress was made on several fronts but as time passed we talked less and less about it until about a year later when it was implied they were better and didn't need any more help. Fair enough. They now have two kids and recently had my mother move in with them. Between the two of them I estimate they now make about 100k/yr based on hints and comments made. We visit them a couple times a year and they are always going out and seem to have seen every movie in the theater that has came out in the last 10 years. Mom recently visited and commented on my sister and BIL's poor financial habits. My sister had recently "bought" another new car because her 18 month old car had started making some weird noises and was running funny. I guess she has been rolling over the loans with each new car and now owes over twice what the latest car is worth. BIL's car is 2 years old and upside down as well. My mom is on social security and has a small pension from her ex husband. Mom is worried because she pays them "rent" each month just so they can afford their house payment. I knew they couldn't be doing great but was hoping they were better off than this based on their income upgrades over the years. I figure they are adults who have been shown the right path but they have chosen not to follow it. Sad.

LivlongnProsper, why is "rent" in quotation marks?  Do you think your mother is paying more than fair rent?

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1931 on: September 23, 2016, 06:55:50 AM »

The British got India because they were simply present.

lol - ok

LivlongnProsper

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1932 on: September 23, 2016, 08:44:05 AM »
LivlongnProsper, why is "rent" in quotation marks?  Do you think your mother is paying more than fair rent?
[/quote]

The quotation marks are there because the arrangement was the house that my sister and BIL bought was bigger and more expensive due to a MIL suite. Mom said she would be able to give them a certain amount a month to cover the difference so she is helping pay the mortgage but to me it is rent for her room. It is $400 a month which I think is fair and has not changed in the two years they have owned the new house.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 08:45:38 AM by LivlongnProsper »

kayvent

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1933 on: September 23, 2016, 08:50:37 AM »

The British got India because they were simply present.

lol - ok

I'm referring to the collapse of the Mughal empire in case you are curious. It is more complicated than "the British were there, therefore they got India" but that is a nice cliff note.

risky4me

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1934 on: September 25, 2016, 01:30:30 PM »
The thing is… if I were to do it all over again, I’d probably do the exact same thing, and that probably makes me a naïve idiot, but… well, no excuse, it is what it is.  I can’t have a six figure bank account and turn around and refuse to lend my family a few hundred bucks. I. just. can’t.  I do wish they didn’t rip my heart out every time I do give them the money though.

I have a firm policy of never, ever loaning money to friends or family. It never, ever turns out well.

I will, however, GIVE money to friends of family if they need it, and in the event at some point in the future they give me some money I would accept it.

But I never, ever loan money.
Agreed. I have seen so much resentment from family lending and not getting repaid. Or seeing the recipients duplicate the same bad decision that led to the issue in the first place. It does depend on the individual though. My family lent me money to buy a fixer upper, I spent a year fixing it up and repaid them fully. Had I went out and bought some toy during that time it would have hurt them deeply. Another family member has been helped numerous times and has always pissed it off and ended in the exact same situation in short time. When I give to a family member it is a gift- no frustrations and anxiety! And I have not seen repeated requests so it has worked well for me.

onehair

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1935 on: September 26, 2016, 07:45:21 AM »
And much like Friday the 13th movies or Freddy Krueger my aunt and uncle have popped up yet again asking my mom for money!!  They recently found some way to Skype her claiming they needed money to pay property taxes due on the house they live in from my late grandparents.  When my mom asked why my uncle wasn't working she was told he couldn't due to "sharp headaches".  It's my opinion these headaches only occur when he is asked to fend for himself. 

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1936 on: September 26, 2016, 08:41:07 AM »

The British got India because they were simply present.

lol - ok

I'm referring to the collapse of the Mughal empire in case you are curious. It is more complicated than "the British were there, therefore they got India" but that is a nice cliff note.

Yeah, I read the comment between some rough stuff at work, so I automatically made it more negative in my head. I apologize for that. I was curious what you really meant, so thank you.


Goldielocks

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1937 on: September 28, 2016, 02:29:23 AM »
On FB today-- SIL posts excitement to go to Disney in just two more weeks!

They go every year.

She lost her job about 5 weeks ago and has not even gotten back to my DH about what type of job she would like, so he can get referrals for her. Her DH drives a forklift for work, and they live in the HCOL area.

Both her girls take academy dance lessons, about three classes a week.

I am really hoping his parents are giving him a 'living inheritance' because IDK where the money is coming from.  She likely did not think to cancel because tickets are bought even though she could avoid another $3k spend if she had resold the hotel stay and not go.

Do I ask or just close my eyes?

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1938 on: September 28, 2016, 06:58:49 AM »
On FB today-- SIL posts excitement to go to Disney in just two more weeks!

They go every year.

She lost her job about 5 weeks ago and has not even gotten back to my DH about what type of job she would like, so he can get referrals for her. Her DH drives a forklift for work, and they live in the HCOL area.

Both her girls take academy dance lessons, about three classes a week.

I am really hoping his parents are giving him a 'living inheritance' because IDK where the money is coming from.  She likely did not think to cancel because tickets are bought even though she could avoid another $3k spend if she had resold the hotel stay and not go.

Do I ask or just close my eyes?

I can't imagine it would do a lick of good to ask.

redbird

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1939 on: September 28, 2016, 08:53:12 AM »
Sounds like most likely Disney-going SIL is racking up credit card debt.

Not worth asking about, since I'm sure you'll hear about it in the form of "I have no money" complaints soon enough.

gillstone

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1940 on: September 28, 2016, 10:24:29 AM »
My father recently whined about how its unfair that he has to pay $450/mo on the 4-bed, 3 bath 2200 sqft duplex owned by his parents.

MrMoogle

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1941 on: September 28, 2016, 12:41:33 PM »
My father recently whined about how its unfair that he has to pay $450/mo on the 4-bed, 3 bath 2200 sqft duplex owned by his parents.
That is pretty rough.  I pay $550/mo on a 550 sqft studio in Alabama, the 2nd cheapest state to live in...  Although, I do live in a city.

infogoon

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1942 on: September 28, 2016, 12:58:38 PM »
My father recently whined about how its unfair that he has to pay $450/mo on the 4-bed, 3 bath 2200 sqft duplex owned by his parents.
That is pretty rough.  I pay $550/mo on a 550 sqft studio in Alabama, the 2nd cheapest state to live in...  Although, I do live in a city.

Not just a city, the city with the South's only Division I hockey team. Go Chargers!

Goldielocks

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1943 on: September 29, 2016, 02:20:28 AM »
On FB today-- SIL posts excitement to go to Disney in just two more weeks!

They go every year.

She lost her job about 5 weeks ago and has not even gotten back to my DH about what type of job she would like, so he can get referrals for her. Her DH drives a forklift for work, and they live in the HCOL area.

Both her girls take academy dance lessons, about three classes a week.

I am really hoping his parents are giving him a 'living inheritance' because IDK where the money is coming from.  She likely did not think to cancel because tickets are bought even though she could avoid another $3k spend if she had resold the hotel stay and not go.

Do I ask or just close my eyes?

I can't imagine it would do a lick of good to ask.

Could I open my eyes wide, and ask them what their secret is, pointing out in a conspiratorial tone that I found my last minute week camping at Banff surprisingly expensive?

Hmm, last time I asked something about their food bill she claimed $140 per month for their family of 4....

MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1944 on: September 29, 2016, 02:23:32 AM »
My father recently whined about how its unfair that he has to pay $450/mo on the 4-bed, 3 bath 2200 sqft duplex owned by his parents.
That is pretty rough.  I pay $550/mo on a 550 sqft studio in Alabama, the 2nd cheapest state to live in...  Although, I do live in a city.

Not just a city, the city with the South's only Division I hockey team. Go Chargers!

I'm proud of myself for knowing which city you're in.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1945 on: September 29, 2016, 03:51:40 AM »
My father recently whined about how its unfair that he has to pay $450/mo on the 4-bed, 3 bath 2200 sqft duplex owned by his parents.
That is pretty rough.  I pay $550/mo on a 550 sqft studio in Alabama, the 2nd cheapest state to live in...  Although, I do live in a city.

Not just a city, the city with the South's only Division I hockey team. Go Chargers!

I'm proud of myself for knowing which city you're in.

You mean because it says it in the left-hand column right below his username, post count, and age?  ;-)

2Cent

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1946 on: September 29, 2016, 04:56:18 AM »
On FB today-- SIL posts excitement to go to Disney in just two more weeks!

They go every year.

She lost her job about 5 weeks ago and has not even gotten back to my DH about what type of job she would like, so he can get referrals for her. Her DH drives a forklift for work, and they live in the HCOL area.

Both her girls take academy dance lessons, about three classes a week.

I am really hoping his parents are giving him a 'living inheritance' because IDK where the money is coming from.  She likely did not think to cancel because tickets are bought even though she could avoid another $3k spend if she had resold the hotel stay and not go.

Do I ask or just close my eyes?
But surely they need the emotional boost after losing her job. Why are you being so negative. That is a very likely response if you ask.

Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1947 on: September 29, 2016, 07:02:15 AM »
On FB today-- SIL posts excitement to go to Disney in just two more weeks!

They go every year.

She lost her job about 5 weeks ago and has not even gotten back to my DH about what type of job she would like, so he can get referrals for her. Her DH drives a forklift for work, and they live in the HCOL area.

Both her girls take academy dance lessons, about three classes a week.

I am really hoping his parents are giving him a 'living inheritance' because IDK where the money is coming from.  She likely did not think to cancel because tickets are bought even though she could avoid another $3k spend if she had resold the hotel stay and not go.

Do I ask or just close my eyes?
But surely they need the emotional boost after losing her job. Why are you being so negative. That is a very likely response if you ask.

Oh god that sounds like so many people I know.

"But it's been a hard month, I DESERVE IT." "Sure, but can you AFFORD it."

2. different. questions. ARGH.

Making Cookies

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1948 on: September 29, 2016, 07:14:03 AM »
I heard about a divorce that was complicated and delayed b/c of debts (can't afford to divorce yet). The divorce was caused in part by excessive spending by both parties and the debt.

I'm wondering if the people involved have considered the circular nature of their situation?

Am happy to report, no small children involved.

Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1949 on: September 29, 2016, 07:19:16 AM »
I heard about a divorce that was complicated and delayed b/c of debts (can't afford to divorce yet). The divorce was caused in part by excessive spending by both parties and the debt.

I'm wondering if the people involved have considered the circular nature of their situation?

Am happy to report, no small children involved.

100% an excellent reason to live within one's means and to each have an income stream.

I've heard a few of my friends have bad relationships (not like... violent bad. Just useless-lump-that-disrespects-you bad. For context.) and tell me 'but I can't afford to leave him'. And I'm like... I never, ever want to be in a situation where I'm sharing a bed with someone because I can't afford not to. Nor to I ever want to be in a situation where someone is in my bed for money.

I have a job. I have savings. My husband also has those. And if things stopped working between us? We'd have options.

'Can't afford to leave' is basically one of the most horrifying marriage things I can imagine.