Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 1040082 times)

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1650 on: August 08, 2016, 06:18:38 AM »
Not relatives but married family friends in there mid forties:

I had assumed they were sort of living paycheck to paycheck or hoped they had some savings or inheritance they were pulling from but no, they have been living well beyond their means and are filling for bankruptcy next month.  One is retired Navy with some pension/medical disability pay who teaches at community college, the other does odd jobs and buys/sells stuff.  So OK but modest income by many standards.  They rent in the fashionable part of town, have a very well decorated apartment, one (or two?) dogs, vacation here and here, eat out most nights per week, pair of new apple watches, apple laptops and to top it off in 2014 they bought a new motor home to get away for long weekends.   Who buys a new motor home?  I remember one of them telling me about it and bragging a bit about it costing 100k and thinking, ok you must have some income/savings I cant see but I would much rather have that monthly payment compounding up in an investment account. 

I understand things happen and bankruptcy is a needed tool in society but these guys had no unexpected events or loss of job, no medical problems and what should be sufficient income; the just had no thought for year after year about how they had more going out than coming in.  I dont know all the details but it seems like they were not even really making an effort to be solvent for a long time, I am not implying fraud or a plain to live it up the go bankrupt but like dude come on!

Just learned that these guys had three cars for two people living in a city(ish), one had a car habit and felt the need for new/different cars every year or so.  Also they had 100k in cc debt!
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kayvent

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1651 on: August 08, 2016, 07:20:34 AM »
Not relatives but married family friends in there mid forties:

I had assumed they were sort of living paycheck to paycheck or hoped they had some savings or inheritance they were pulling from but no, they have been living well beyond their means and are filling for bankruptcy next month.  One is retired Navy with some pension/medical disability pay who teaches at community college, the other does odd jobs and buys/sells stuff.  So OK but modest income by many standards.  They rent in the fashionable part of town, have a very well decorated apartment, one (or two?) dogs, vacation here and here, eat out most nights per week, pair of new apple watches, apple laptops and to top it off in 2014 they bought a new motor home to get away for long weekends.   Who buys a new motor home?  I remember one of them telling me about it and bragging a bit about it costing 100k and thinking, ok you must have some income/savings I cant see but I would much rather have that monthly payment compounding up in an investment account. 

I understand things happen and bankruptcy is a needed tool in society but these guys had no unexpected events or loss of job, no medical problems and what should be sufficient income; the just had no thought for year after year about how they had more going out than coming in.  I dont know all the details but it seems like they were not even really making an effort to be solvent for a long time, I am not implying fraud or a plain to live it up the go bankrupt but like dude come on!

Just learned that these guys had three cars for two people living in a city(ish), one had a car habit and felt the need for new/different cars every year or so.  Also they had 100k in cc debt!

Now that is just impressive. If they are floating 100k in CC debt the CC companies are collecting between 15k-25k in interest per year but nonetheless to be able to have CC companies trust one enough to give 100K is an incredible feat.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1652 on: August 08, 2016, 07:26:05 AM »
Family reunion # 1 ... its that time of year.

So 2 families with very parallel lives. Both 2 kids, very similar ages, both divorced @ same time ish, both with other parent issues, both middle class but each have been on the verge of Bankrupsy in the past 5years.

But in the one the 2 children are doing very well. Oldest with 2 Part time jobs, first year of college done, great marks, first MMM approved car bought & the younger one is doing well too.

Family 2. The eldest hasn't finished the basic high school diploma & just quit a min wage job. No driver's license & no motivation. The younger one is all sassy & starts confrontations with adults using rude comments. Sassy is cute at 5 not 14.

They are family & I'm sorry the one set is so lost. I just can't believe it is night & day with these two families.

I think Family 1 had such a shock that the one parent really had to pull it together. While the other seperated family was still plodding along with a spendypants life & spoiling the kids for affection.

I have spent 1/2 a dozen Christmases with these kids growing up. I wish there was something I could do to help but I feel really hopeless at this point.

I think I've met those sassy kids... In the situation I know best its a reflection of the parents. We tried to intervene quietly by inviting the kids to our house a few times. I think it was eye opening for the kids to see how our house worked. Nobody feuding. No arguments. Family cooperating to get the day's duties done. Games and movies and making cookies. Older one went on to have a child before HS was complete and quit school. (GED later). Younger one is still sassy but how that one will play out I don't know. The second one has a shot at being somebody b/c that one is smart and capable. First one just surrendered to impulsive behavior.

I keep thinking if we could/would have done this invitation monthly that we might have been able to steer that situation simply by being positive examples. Als life get in the way - the kids get older and have their own things like friends and sports, etc.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1653 on: August 09, 2016, 01:43:12 PM »
Family reunion # 1 ... its that time of year.

So 2 families with very parallel lives. Both 2 kids, very similar ages, both divorced @ same time ish, both with other parent issues, both middle class but each have been on the verge of Bankrupsy in the past 5years.

But in the one the 2 children are doing very well. Oldest with 2 Part time jobs, first year of college done, great marks, first MMM approved car bought & the younger one is doing well too.

Family 2. The eldest hasn't finished the basic high school diploma & just quit a min wage job. No driver's license & no motivation. The younger one is all sassy & starts confrontations with adults using rude comments. Sassy is cute at 5 not 14.

They are family & I'm sorry the one set is so lost. I just can't believe it is night & day with these two families.

I think Family 1 had such a shock that the one parent really had to pull it together. While the other seperated family was still plodding along with a spendypants life & spoiling the kids for affection.

I have spent 1/2 a dozen Christmases with these kids growing up. I wish there was something I could do to help but I feel really hopeless at this point.

I think I've met those sassy kids... In the situation I know best its a reflection of the parents. We tried to intervene quietly by inviting the kids to our house a few times. I think it was eye opening for the kids to see how our house worked. Nobody feuding. No arguments. Family cooperating to get the day's duties done. Games and movies and making cookies. Older one went on to have a child before HS was complete and quit school. (GED later). Younger one is still sassy but how that one will play out I don't know. The second one has a shot at being somebody b/c that one is smart and capable. First one just surrendered to impulsive behavior.

I keep thinking if we could/would have done this invitation monthly that we might have been able to steer that situation simply by being positive examples. Als life get in the way - the kids get older and have their own things like friends and sports, etc.

Yes it is definitely a reflection of the parents. The one thinks jabs and jokes are funny. I don't see the kids often 1-2x per year.  We live 600 miles apart.  We just saw them 2 times in 4 days. I am usually so shocked I an just speechless. "Your kid is going to grow up to be a horrible teenager." Was her comment to me when my hurt 5y old was crying.  I was speechless but inside was thinking "like you". 

My SO was speechless too when "So are you in a bad mood or are you still sick?" was her greeting.

SO was shocked and instead of saying "I am feeling fine, thank-you." There was an awkward silence because the "If you don't have anything nice to say don't say it at all." instincts kicked in.  Then my SO looked rude for not responding.

Many family members noted you need to be on egg shells around the sassy little one. The older one is not rude, just quiet and I worry she is not on her way to being an independent young woman.

I am a bit more prepared for it now. I will see them again before Christmas. But I really need to come up with my best calm reactions to somehow let Miss. Sass  know what she says is inappropriate yet not start a confrontation. 


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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1654 on: August 09, 2016, 01:54:49 PM »
I am wondering why you would choose to spend any time with these people at all?

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1655 on: August 09, 2016, 02:08:48 PM »
I am wondering why you would choose to spend any time with these people at all?

In many cases there isn't much of a choice without causing an avalanche over other problems. I'm ok with my immediate family, but some of my extended family drives me crazy, but if I were to avoid my extended family it would cause problems with my immediate family, so on those rare occasions where I have to meet with them, I just smile and bite the bullet.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1656 on: August 09, 2016, 03:42:30 PM »
I am a bit more prepared for it now. I will see them again before Christmas. But I really need to come up with my best calm reactions to somehow let Miss. Sass  know what she says is inappropriate yet not start a confrontation.

I can't imagine what to say to accomplish this. Care to throw out an idea?

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1657 on: August 09, 2016, 06:36:42 PM »
I am a bit more prepared for it now. I will see them again before Christmas. But I really need to come up with my best calm reactions to somehow let Miss. Sass  know what she says is inappropriate yet not start a confrontation.

I can't imagine what to say to accomplish this. Care to throw out an idea?

"WOW. How... Interesting. *change subject really obviously*"

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1658 on: August 09, 2016, 07:56:25 PM »
I am a bit more prepared for it now. I will see them again before Christmas. But I really need to come up with my best calm reactions to somehow let Miss. Sass  know what she says is inappropriate yet not start a confrontation.

I can't imagine what to say to accomplish this. Care to throw out an idea?

First: the eyebrow.

Second: "Well, aren't you the cheeky little monkey."

Not smiling. Not laughing. Repeat as needed and eventually she will respond to just the eyebrow. That is, at least, IF she's as intelligent as Pavlov's dogs.
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iris lily

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Re: Relatives who just don't get i
« Reply #1659 on: August 09, 2016, 08:28:41 PM »
I am a bit more prepared for it now. I will see them again before Christmas. But I really need to come up with my best calm reactions to somehow let Miss. Sass  know what she says is inappropriate yet not start a confrontation.

I can't imagine what to say to accomplish this. Care to throw out an idea?

"WOW. How... Interesting. *change subject really obviously*"
This in answer to a statement.  Or complete silence, and ignore. To her smart alec questions you  answer as you would to any other boorish adult
" I cant imagine ne why you would ask that"

Calling anyone "a cheeky little monkey" just engages her further and you stoop to her level.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 10:52:36 PM by iris lily »

K-ice

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1660 on: August 09, 2016, 08:55:19 PM »
I am a bit more prepared for it now. I will see them again before Christmas. But I really need to come up with my best calm reactions to somehow let Miss. Sass  know what she says is inappropriate yet not start a confrontation.

I can't imagine what to say to accomplish this. Care to throw out an idea?

"WOW. How... Interesting. *change subject really obviously*"
This inanswer to a statement.  Or complete silence, and ignore. To her smaer alec questions ns your u answer as you would to any other boorish adult "
I cant imagine ne why you would ask that"

Calling anyone "a cheeky little monkey" just engages her further and you stoop to her level.

My SO may just stay silent. Miss Sass likes the last word so we can give her the first & last word.

I thought a more passive aggressive approach. "Why would you say that? You hurt my feelings."

I don't think she is compleatly heartless so playing hurt, may help.

But it's also a case where the parents don't want or need parenting help. We were sucked into Miss Sass's web last year. A confrontation arose & her father demanded an apology from us!

No parental help, but they will take ample financial help from other relatives :(

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1661 on: August 09, 2016, 10:28:10 PM »
I wouldn't suggest anything that might give the brat the idea that she'd hurt me or offended me, because that is exactly what she wants to do. Hurting others empowers her and makes her feel good about herself. Some kids are just sadistic like that.

If you ignore their behavior or change the subject and don't call them on it, they win because in their mind they got away with it.

If you attempt to get their rightful authorities to correct them (in this case the parents), they win because their parents are being spineless, and they'll get away with it.

If you laugh, they win because they read it as an expression of approval or equality, when in reality you and the child are not equal.

If you express pain or concern, they win because they feel powerful.

If you one-up them, they win because you just demonstrated the same behavior.

If you punish them, even verbally, they win because then their parents bring the hammer down to protect poor little defenseless Snotley.

Pretty much everything you do to correct a snotty or destructive brat is a reward of some sort because it plays into their feelings of assholes-are-powerful-and-I-am-an-asshole empowerment. To keep their bullying in check (and it is bullying behavior), what's worked for me is acknowledgement of the inappropriateness, with mild disapproval in a way that highlights their pettiness and lack of adultness is about all you can do to pull their fangs out. It's not ideal. Smacking them would make me feel better, and I won't deny that I sometimes fantasize about it, but it's unlikely to correct the root cause of the problem, which is a total lack of empathy.

I find it best to never rely on another human being's inherent goodness or sense of compassion without first seeing evidence that one has been trained in.
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Kitsune

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1662 on: August 10, 2016, 05:57:19 AM »
What Grim said, as usual.

This ONLY works with the proper facial expression, but I've found that "hmmmm", with the ever-so-sligh sneer (like, one nostril slightly lifted and no other facial expression - I try to channel my grandmother, basically) and changing the subject really blatantly makes it ABUNDANTLY clear that the behaviour is judged and found wanting, but subtle enough that no one is gonna leap to their defence about how "they don't mean it" or "they're just like that".

Also works pretty well on that uber-sexist old biddy who lives down my street and keeps insisting on trying to talk to me about how we named our daughter (apparently a hyphenated last name disconnects a child from their heritage and family, did you know.)

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1663 on: August 10, 2016, 07:03:35 AM »
I wouldn't suggest anything that might give the brat the idea that she'd hurt me or offended me, because that is exactly what she wants to do. Hurting others empowers her and makes her feel good about herself. Some kids people are just sadistic like that.

If you ignore their behavior or change the subject and don't call them on it, they win because in their mind they got away with it.

If you attempt to get their rightful authorities to correct them (in this case the parents), they win because their parents are being spineless, and they'll get away with it.

If you laugh, they win because they read it as an expression of approval or equality, when in reality you and the child are not equal.

If you express pain or concern, they win because they feel powerful.

If you one-up them, they win because you just demonstrated the same behavior.

If you punish them, even verbally, they win because then their parents bring the hammer down to protect poor little defenseless Snotley.

Pretty much everything you do to correct a snotty or destructive brat is a reward of some sort because it plays into their feelings of assholes-are-powerful-and-I-am-an-asshole empowerment. To keep their bullying in check (and it is bullying behavior), what's worked for me is acknowledgement of the inappropriateness, with mild disapproval in a way that highlights their pettiness and lack of adultness is about all you can do to pull their fangs out. It's not ideal. Smacking them would make me feel better, and I won't deny that I sometimes fantasize about it, but it's unlikely to correct the root cause of the problem, which is a total lack of empathy.

I find it best to never rely on another human being's inherent goodness or sense of compassion without first seeing evidence that one has been trained in.

Fixed that for you.  Unfortunately, too many don't grow out of it. 

I also can't help but think that this post is also an insightful explanation of how a certain U.S. Presidential major party nominee secured the nomination.  He's set things up so that-- at least in his eyes and the eyes of people who think like him-- he is playing a game in which he almost can't lose, regardless of how his opponents respond.  It's actually impressive in an disturbing sort of way. 

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1664 on: August 10, 2016, 07:12:52 AM »
I do the long silent stare right at the person, no facial expression (or a slight old-school Clint Eastwood squint) then turn away and talk to someone else. My fave for FIL who is generally known as an asshole, I do a shorter stare and low mirthless chuckle while looking in his eyes. Then I turn away. I try to think something like, "Sad sad sick man." Helps me realize he IS sick that he has to be that way.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 07:15:55 AM by Basenji »

MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1665 on: August 10, 2016, 08:10:14 AM »
I do the long silent stare right at the person, no facial expression

I agree. There are too many amazing people in this world that I simply just don't care to associate unnecessary with assholes. So whenever I get in the situation I'll just look at them with no expression, sometimes I might give a quick nod, but I avoid saying anything, and find that this says all that needs to be said. In the past I felt a need to rebut the person, because nearly always they were wrong, but now I just don't care. People that make brash statements automatically KNOW that they are right and aren't looking for alternative viewpoints, so it's not worth me wasting my time on them. Much happier this way.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1666 on: August 10, 2016, 08:50:29 AM »
For the snotty brat, may I suggest a "doggy head tilt" followed by believable, "I feel so sad for you." And then just turning your back to her.

Sorry but she's being a total bit$$ and she knows it. There's no need for you to be nice in response...

Or do what grim said, that's usually the best advice around these forums lol.
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zolotiyeruki

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1667 on: August 10, 2016, 09:32:11 AM »
I do the long silent stare right at the person, no facial expression

I agree. There are too many amazing people in this world that I simply just don't care to associate unnecessary with assholes. So whenever I get in the situation I'll just look at them with no expression, sometimes I might give a quick nod, but I avoid saying anything, and find that this says all that needs to be said. In the past I felt a need to rebut the person, because nearly always they were wrong, but now I just don't care. People that make brash statements automatically KNOW that they are right and aren't looking for alternative viewpoints, so it's not worth me wasting my time on them. Much happier this way.
Years ago at Sea World one of the trainers explained the Least Reinforcing Scenario technique (or Least Reinforcing Stimulus).  I wonder how well it works on humans.

Basenji

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1668 on: August 10, 2016, 09:33:27 AM »
I do the long silent stare right at the person, no facial expression

I agree. There are too many amazing people in this world that I simply just don't care to associate unnecessary with assholes. So whenever I get in the situation I'll just look at them with no expression, sometimes I might give a quick nod, but I avoid saying anything, and find that this says all that needs to be said. In the past I felt a need to rebut the person, because nearly always they were wrong, but now I just don't care. People that make brash statements automatically KNOW that they are right and aren't looking for alternative viewpoints, so it's not worth me wasting my time on them. Much happier this way.
Years ago at Sea World one of the trainers explained the Least Reinforcing Scenario technique (or Least Reinforcing Stimulus).  I wonder how well it works on humans.

More details pls

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1669 on: August 10, 2016, 10:05:13 AM »
Fixed that for you.  Unfortunately, too many don't grow out of it. 

They can be trained out of it, just not once they get significant real money or power.
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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1670 on: August 10, 2016, 11:11:35 AM »
Depending on the child, and how I can expect the parents to react (or not react), I have on occasions given the child a calm and serene lecture about proper behaviour. And by calm, I mean just as calm as if I was explaining differential mathematics, with explanations about the how and why, and suggestions about which philosophers to read up on (or TV series to watch). I have some experience from teaching sex ed in junior high, so it takes quite a lot to disrupt my "teaching face". On one side of my family, and in the neighbourhood where we used to live, it is common that adult relatives help raise the children, so I could probably ground the child and get backing from the parent without any questions asked. But some parents are clueless, and protect their precious ones from all hints of negativity. Those children can not be thaught, only shown.
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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1671 on: August 10, 2016, 11:28:12 AM »
My BIL is buying a new RV with an indoor cabin for his motorcycles so he can start enjoying life and the outdoors. He moved to a country town 2 years ago from the city to enjoy the outdoors. His family has 2 quads, 2 motorcycles, a customized jeep, a customized truck, and other toys I probably can't even remember.  Every time they have cash they burn it. He also works 60+ hours a week to pay the bills. My SO advised against the RV because they just refinanced their credit card debt into their mortgage...for a second time since they bought the house.  BIL responded they did that to save money,  they weren't in a pinch or anything.  Um, you had $20k cc debt from two years, yes you were in a pinch.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1672 on: August 10, 2016, 12:12:14 PM »
Guava reminded me of a statement I've heard from family, friends, co-workers, something like this:
"If you are making the minimum monthly payments on your auto/education loan/credit card balance, you aren't in debt. Debt is that additional balance that you don't have money to make a payment on."

Meanwhile I consider my outstanding house mortgage to be deep-doo-doo-debt. Obviously I don't look at the world through the same tinted lenses as everyone does.
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MgoSam

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1673 on: August 10, 2016, 12:25:04 PM »

Meanwhile I consider my outstanding house mortgage to be deep-doo-doo-debt. Obviously I don't look at the world through the same tinted lenses as everyone does.

Yup! I pay extra towards my mortgage, but I know I'll need to step up payments because I won't consider myself FIREd until my house is fully paid for.

K-ice

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1674 on: August 10, 2016, 01:11:24 PM »
...
"If you are making the minimum monthly payments on your auto/education loan/credit card balance, you aren't in debt. Debt is that additional balance that you don't have money to make a payment on."
...

What?  Really?  Only someone making money off of interest payments would educate people that the above is not debt.

You maybe haven't defaulted on your debt but you are still in debt. Or people who have "no credit card debt" because they consolidated it somewhere else.

Actually, I knew someone who had a huge line of Credit on his house but boasted that he had "no mortgage".  The LoC was to purchase the house and they were making interest only payments.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1675 on: August 10, 2016, 01:17:05 PM »
"If you are making the minimum monthly payments on your auto/education loan/credit card balance, you aren't in debt. Debt is that additional balance that you don't have money to make a payment on."

Unfortunately a lot of people think this way.  If they are making the minimum payments they consider themselves "good with money".

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1676 on: August 10, 2016, 02:31:39 PM »
"If you are making the minimum monthly payments on your auto/education loan/credit card balance, you aren't in debt. Debt is that additional balance that you don't have money to make a payment on."

Unfortunately a lot of people think this way.  If they are making the minimum payments they consider themselves "good with money".
Exactly. What used to be an exception is now the new normal. And that which was the norm is the new exception.
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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1677 on: August 10, 2016, 02:32:06 PM »
"If you are making the minimum monthly payments on your auto/education loan/credit card balance, you aren't in debt. Debt is that additional balance that you don't have money to make a payment on."

Unfortunately a lot of people think this way.  If they are making the minimum payments they consider themselves "good with money".

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1678 on: August 10, 2016, 03:55:53 PM »
"If you are making the minimum monthly payments on your auto/education loan/credit card balance, you aren't in debt. Debt is that additional balance that you don't have money to make a payment on."

Unfortunately a lot of people think this way.  If they are making the minimum payments they consider themselves "good with money".

The brain. It broke.

Oh dear. Minimum payments... just enough for lenders to make a killing, big enough to have some semblance of "you are still paying down the balance so all is roses" effect on the psyche.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1679 on: August 11, 2016, 06:14:40 AM »
Went to University with someone who would ignore small purchases on her credit card until "they got large enough to deal with"!!!   And she was taking Education!  Not sure if she ended up teaching...really hope she didn't teach math.
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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1680 on: August 11, 2016, 07:10:09 AM »
Oh dear. Minimum payments... just enough for lenders to make a killing, big enough to have some semblance of "you are still paying down the balance so all is roses" effect on the psyche.

Hey, with minimum payments you too can make $60K and spend like you make $200K...

...for a while...

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1681 on: August 11, 2016, 07:19:32 AM »
My BIL is buying a new RV with an indoor cabin for his motorcycles so he can start enjoying life and the outdoors. He moved to a country town 2 years ago from the city to enjoy the outdoors. His family has 2 quads, 2 motorcycles, a customized jeep, a customized truck, and other toys I probably can't even remember.  Every time they have cash they burn it. He also works 60+ hours a week to pay the bills. My SO advised against the RV because they just refinanced their credit card debt into their mortgage...for a second time since they bought the house.  BIL responded they did that to save money,  they weren't in a pinch or anything.  Um, you had $20k cc debt from two years, yes you were in a pinch.

After a long conversation, SO has talked him into delaying the purchase at least...for now. I expect BIL to not mention it to us next time when he actually does buy it because we are joy killers *evil laugh*

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1682 on: August 14, 2016, 07:10:51 PM »
My brother is down for a few days. My mother plans that we'll go to a breakfast restaurant tomorrow. I suggest that we go to my house instead. I can cook a wicked breakfast and for the cost of 10$ or less I could feed the five of us. I only gave the former as a reason but honestly the latter was the reason I brought it up. My mother, who is almost 50 and work 60 hours a week, will insist that she pays tomorrow. :( I love her dearly but I wish I could be more of a help.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1683 on: August 14, 2016, 08:25:06 PM »
"If you are making the minimum monthly payments on your auto/education loan/credit card balance, you aren't in debt. Debt is that additional balance that you don't have money to make a payment on."

Unfortunately a lot of people think this way.  If they are making the minimum payments they consider themselves "good with money".
Or my friend who never fails to let me know how much she saves on sale prices.
She outs in all on her charge card which carries a large balance. At one time she was paying  around 19% but  think  it is less now.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1684 on: August 15, 2016, 04:40:30 AM »
"If you are making the minimum monthly payments on your auto/education loan/credit card balance, you aren't in debt. Debt is that additional balance that you don't have money to make a payment on."

Unfortunately a lot of people think this way.  If they are making the minimum payments they consider themselves "good with money".
Or my friend who never fails to let me know how much she saves on sale prices.
She outs in all on her charge card which carries a large balance. At one time she was paying  around 19% but  think  it is less now.

I become a grammar nazi when people do that. One only saves on sales if they had the intention of buying something beforehand or in the future. For example, if I'm planning on buying peanut butter and I just so happen to notice that they have a sale on peanut butter as I walk down the isle then that means I'm saving. But if someone just goes out shopping because there is a sale, they aren't technically saving because they had no intention of buying things beforehand. They are merely making purchases.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1685 on: August 15, 2016, 06:48:43 AM »
My BIL is buying a new RV with an indoor cabin for his motorcycles so he can start enjoying life and the outdoors. He moved to a country town 2 years ago from the city to enjoy the outdoors. His family has 2 quads, 2 motorcycles, a customized jeep, a customized truck, and other toys I probably can't even remember.  Every time they have cash they burn it. He also works 60+ hours a week to pay the bills. My SO advised against the RV because they just refinanced their credit card debt into their mortgage...for a second time since they bought the house.  BIL responded they did that to save money,  they weren't in a pinch or anything.  Um, you had $20k cc debt from two years, yes you were in a pinch.

The DW and I are serious RVers. We have an older motorhome that we paid cash for, and we live in it 60-75% of the year.  One thing I have learned in the last 15 yrs of doing this is that RVs can really bring out the worst in decision making in a lot of people. We have older friends who just bought the motorhome you are referring to, it's called a "toy hauler".  They bought a new motorhome about four years ago. It was very similar to ours. Ours was seven years old, with low mileage, and had been obsessively cared for. We paid $44K. They bought a new one and paid $106K. They put $30K down and took out a mortgage on the balance. I use the word "mortgage" for a reason. The "car loan" on these things is absurd. They are typically for twenty years. Twenty years for a home is understandable, twenty for a poorly built box on wheels that falls apart and depreciates at an alarming rate, not so much.  In shopping for used RVs you constantly hit deals that would be great, but the owner can't get the numbers in the reasonable range, since they have a 20 yr mortgage on the thing. It's now six or seven years old, and they owe a LOT more than it's actually worth. Our friends decided that they  "need" the toy hauler to load with motorcycles, and still be able to pull a car behind. They find a 2016 for about $125K. It's built by one of the giant mega-corp RV manufacturers, and compared to their current one, an absolute piece of shit. Truly horrid quality, and a really unusable interior. Very little "living" space, no couch, no actual closets, etc..... They get roughly $60K on the trade, which barely covers the loan, then get a mortgage on the new one. WTF?  In reality they borrowed 100% of the sale price for this POS. They will have lost at least $35-40K by this time next year!!!

This is far from unusual behavior.

 We ended up at an RV show this past winter.  We usually go alone, but traveled with a handful of couples from the resort we were at. Two of the couples had fifth wheel trailers that were less than a year old. Both were fairly expensive rigs
 ($60-80K) and made by well regarded, privately held, smaller manufacturers.  Both wifes were dying to upgrade to bigger, fancier models. A recent facebook post revealed that one couple traded their perfectly nice, quality rig in, for a bigger, "blingier" POS with a lot more bells ans whistles. We were also with a couple who is far more mustashian. They have an older rig, it's now worn pretty hard, and it would be nice to replace. They shopped hard at the show, and decided that taking $40K, or more, out of savings, to upgrade, doesn't really have to happen yet.  None of this is unusual, big loans for  quickly depreciating liabilities, and swapping them out like you change clothes is what keeps the industry breaking sales records lately. It's hard to image how many people will work until they drop dead, since they "needed" a fancy RV.

 My old neighbor has been drooling over ever RV I owned for the last fifteen years.  He works at least six days a week in a horrible job in the trucking industry. His wife is a school lunch lady. They can't get away at all during the school year. In the summers, they have roughly ten Wednesdays where he is off for the day, and they can enjoy a day together.  Last year he buys an older, but decent $20K motorhome. They have no savings. They use their HELOC.  They take a one week vacation in the RV.  This became the one, and only, time they used the thing. This year he trades it in for a new $80K motorhome. He takes an $8K loss on the trade in. The new one is a shit brand, low end piece of junk that will depreciate like a rock, and fall apart.  His logic is that he needs to do this deal before he retires, and still has the income necessary to qualify for the loan. They recently took their one week vacation in the new rig. They both hope to retire in the next year or two. Zero savings,  she has no pension, he has a small pension from an old teamsters union trucking job. I really doubt that they are going to make it.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1686 on: August 15, 2016, 08:27:06 AM »
Thank you PaddedHat. I always wondered how people afford RVs. 20 year loans... Amazing...

I decided if we ever wanted an RV or boat I would not even consider it unless we had some sort of structure to park it in.

Lots of those sitting around here with covers (or not) just weathering away and getting used infrequently.

For my family I think a better solution would be a pop-up camper or a variation of an Aussie "expedition" trailer. For me, easier to imagine affording a building (shed, barn, carport, etc) to park it in b/c it is smaller.

Have fun with the RV. They look like at of fun. My friends have fifth-wheel trailers that they buy used for $6K, fix up, use for a few years and resell.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1687 on: August 15, 2016, 08:28:53 AM »
"If you are making the minimum monthly payments on your auto/education loan/credit card balance, you aren't in debt. Debt is that additional balance that you don't have money to make a payment on."

Unfortunately a lot of people think this way.  If they are making the minimum payments they consider themselves "good with money".
Or my friend who never fails to let me know how much she saves on sale prices.
She outs in all on her charge card which carries a large balance. At one time she was paying  around 19% but  think  it is less now.

I become a grammar nazi when people do that. One only saves on sales if they had the intention of buying something beforehand or in the future. For example, if I'm planning on buying peanut butter and I just so happen to notice that they have a sale on peanut butter as I walk down the isle then that means I'm saving. But if someone just goes out shopping because there is a sale, they aren't technically saving because they had no intention of buying things beforehand. They are merely making purchases.

*aisle

/grammar nazi
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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1688 on: August 15, 2016, 09:52:59 AM »
About eighteen years ago, I met a relative on my father's side who was RV'ing around with his wife. They were an elderly couple, retired, and living the good life from all appearances. They kind of dropped in on me, having gotten my address from someone or another.

These folks had a gigantic motorhome. I got to see the inside of it, and it was jaw-dropping. Plush carpets, leather reclining seats, stainless steel kitchenette, and every luxury I could imagine including an early flat-screen TV. It had almost as much indoor space as a small condo and was the nicest motorhome I'd ever seen. It was basically a yacht with wheels.

They explained to me that they'd sold their home and that this was their house now. They were full-time RV'ers who traveled around and had no fixed address. The lifestyle-- I wasn't aware of the downsides at the time-- seemed so awesome to me that I fantasized about doing something similar for a good five years afterwards. It seemed like a reasonable thing to do, and without the expenses of a house or apartment, I thought the higher costs of maintenance on the RV could be manageable for people who'd already earned financial independence. These two came across as a hardworking, frugal couple who'd had a rough life early on but who were now enjoying the benefits of years of hard work and sacrifice. Sort of a Horatio Alger wet dream. The RV in question was pretty swanky and more luxurious than my apartment, but I thought: who cares, if they can afford it and it's what they want?

As much as I liked this couple's idea of full-time RV, I just couldn't warm up to the guy. He behaved like an asshole unless he was around someone he was trying to impress. He wasn't trying to impress me, so I naturally decided he was a prick. My parents thought he was the bee's knees. To them, he really was considerate, courteous, and sincere. Those images are pretty different. I only trust people who are the same people all the time: they might have layers to them and take a while to show all of who they are until they get to know you better, but they don't turn off and on like a light switch. People who do can suck my scythe. When I saw him buttering up my parents, I tried to cut him off at the knees, but it didn't work.

My parents started to get pretty cozy with this couple, despite my warnings, and they did their very best to make me change my mind. They truly didn't believe me, but then they never do when what I tell them differs from what they see or want to believe. "This guy is up to something," I'd tell them. "He's only being nice because he wants something from you. I don't know what, but it's going to be big." I continued to be polite to him (no point in both of us being assholes), but didn't jump on the bandwagon and continued to warn my parents that the guy was Up To Something.

Anyway, after about six months of buttering up, the guy asked my dad for an obscene amount of money (think six figures). Despite being retired and living on a fixed income they weren't actually financially independent, and they'd gone deeply in debt to buy the travel trailer. They hadn't been able to make the payments on it and were about to lose it for that reason, at which point they'd be homeless. Well, my parents hemmed, hawed, and decided not to give it to him. At that point a shitstorm began (classic tantrum behavior to get what a person wants or punish the person who's refusing to give). I sat back with popcorn and a hearty "I told you so."

Obviously this doesn't reflect the behavior of any of the RV'ers on this board. Nor does it keep me from sometimes occasionally fantasizing about taking off with my favorite bird and leaving it all behind. Maybe when my daughter's grown I'll do that.
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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1689 on: August 15, 2016, 10:10:23 AM »
Anyway, after about six months of buttering up, the guy asked my dad for an obscene amount of money (think six figures). Despite being retired and living on a fixed income they weren't actually financially independent, and they'd gone deeply in debt to buy the travel trailer. They hadn't been able to make the payments on it and were about to lose it for that reason, at which point they'd be homeless. Well, my parents hemmed, hawed, and decided not to give it to him. At that point a shitstorm began (classic tantrum behavior to get what a person wants or punish the person who's refusing to give). I sat back with popcorn and a hearty "I told you so."
I'm curious--how did your parents react at this point in the story?  Did they give in, or did they hold fast?  Did they acknowledge that you had been right all along?

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1690 on: August 15, 2016, 10:54:15 AM »
I still haven't decided on RE, but definitely on board with FI in the next ~10 years. I was discussing potential RE with my dad when he was visiting, and he was fairly impressed with the idea.  He subsequently mentioned to my aunt the possibility of me retiring by 45. Her response: "But what will she DO with all that time?" Another recruit for the Retirement Police, perhaps?

Not egregious by any means, but interesting. I haven't spoken to any of my relatives since Christmas (despite living in the same general area), and probably won't again until Thanksgiving, so I won't know if it's been mentioned to anyone else until then. It'll be interesting to find out if it has and what the various reactions will be.
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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1691 on: August 15, 2016, 11:31:07 AM »
Anyway, after about six months of buttering up, the guy asked my dad for an obscene amount of money (think six figures). Despite being retired and living on a fixed income they weren't actually financially independent, and they'd gone deeply in debt to buy the travel trailer. They hadn't been able to make the payments on it and were about to lose it for that reason, at which point they'd be homeless. Well, my parents hemmed, hawed, and decided not to give it to him. At that point a shitstorm began (classic tantrum behavior to get what a person wants or punish the person who's refusing to give). I sat back with popcorn and a hearty "I told you so."
I'm curious--how did your parents react at this point in the story?  Did they give in, or did they hold fast?  Did they acknowledge that you had been right all along?

They didn't make the "loan".

My father was somewhat bemused by the whole thing since his social warfare skills are hit and miss. Back then I wasn't enough of a blip on his radar screen to justify commenting on whether I was right.

My mother (who was the one who'd taken the lead in trying to make me like the guy), grudgingly acknowledged that his conduct was disappointing and stopped trying to make me like the guy. For a master of social warfare (which she is), she gets spun a lot.
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Cassie

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1692 on: August 15, 2016, 01:37:58 PM »
There are so many very little used RV's around that it is stupid to ever buy a new one. People find out they don't enjoy it or one partner gets sick etc and they quit using it. We bought one built in 1993 and in 2008 it had 37k miles on it and we bought it for 14k.  We actually have used it very little and only have insurance on it during the summer and early fall.  Last year we took a month trip and had a few things happen like a hose disconnected from the refrigerator causing a flood, etc. We had it checked out and fixed things before we left. So we are parked to a couple with a brand new one that cost 121k.  They tell us they sold their older one because of stuff that started to happen and with thir new one the same types of things are happening.  Now they are sorry they upgraded.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1693 on: August 15, 2016, 02:19:45 PM »
My ex's mom (we'll just call her MIL since ex and I were engaged) had a few moments that made me facepalm so hard.  To start off, she is divorced but gets alimony in the amount of around $70k/year.  On top of that she was working two jobs as a dental hygienist.

She consistently complained about never having any money.  One look around her house and it was clear where it all went.  So much useless crap.  She also paid way too much for her (admittedly modest) house and is still probably underwater on it.

I'll never forget one day I was over there, MIL asks me about 401k.  I assumed just to make sure I was saving.  No, she was asking me because she had 0 retirement savings and didn't know where to start!  Like, she was almost in tears.  I could not believe it.

I saw her daughter (my ex) with so many of those traits.  One of the reasons I left her.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1694 on: August 15, 2016, 05:26:17 PM »
My BIL is buying a new RV with an indoor cabin for his motorcycles so he can start enjoying life and the outdoors. He moved to a country town 2 years ago from the city to enjoy the outdoors. His family has 2 quads, 2 motorcycles, a customized jeep, a customized truck, and other toys I probably can't even remember.  Every time they have cash they burn it. He also works 60+ hours a week to pay the bills. My SO advised against the RV because they just refinanced their credit card debt into their mortgage...for a second time since they bought the house.  BIL responded they did that to save money,  they weren't in a pinch or anything.  Um, you had $20k cc debt from two years, yes you were in a pinch.

Our friends decided that they  "need" the toy hauler to load with motorcycles, and still be able to pull a car behind. They find a 2016 for about $125K.

Wait, wait, wait. You are saying a toy hauler can be $125k? Like a really, really nice one, right?  Here SO and I thought $30k is how much they cost....I am now disgusted.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1695 on: August 15, 2016, 06:10:52 PM »
My BIL is buying a new RV with an indoor cabin for his motorcycles so he can start enjoying life and the outdoors. He moved to a country town 2 years ago from the city to enjoy the outdoors. His family has 2 quads, 2 motorcycles, a customized jeep, a customized truck, and other toys I probably can't even remember.  Every time they have cash they burn it. He also works 60+ hours a week to pay the bills. My SO advised against the RV because they just refinanced their credit card debt into their mortgage...for a second time since they bought the house.  BIL responded they did that to save money,  they weren't in a pinch or anything.  Um, you had $20k cc debt from two years, yes you were in a pinch.


Our friends decided that they  "need" the toy hauler to load with motorcycles, and still be able to pull a car behind. They find a 2016 for about $125K.

Wait, wait, wait. You are saying a toy hauler can be $125k? Like a really, really nice one, right?  Here SO and I thought $30k is how much they cost....I am now disgusted.

Well, there are towable toy haulers and motorized ones. A really cheap, low end towable might get down as far as the $25-30k range, but that's really down there for a new one.  A lot of the fancy fifth wheel toy haulers list in the $90-120K+ range, and a typical discount is roughly 25% of MSRP. My buddy's new rig is a toy hauler motorhome that listed for the mid-$160s before the discount. So, next time you see some chucklenut blow past you on the highway with a new Superduty F350 Diesel, and a giant new fifth wheel toy hauler, it's a pretty good guess that they are in it for at least $125K, and often a LOT more. Like that one comedian always says, "you can't fix stupid".

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1696 on: August 15, 2016, 06:36:54 PM »
There are so many very little used RV's around that it is stupid to ever buy a new one. People find out they don't enjoy it or one partner gets sick etc and they quit using it. We bought one built in 1993 and in 2008 it had 37k miles on it and we bought it for 14k.  We actually have used it very little and only have insurance on it during the summer and early fall.  Last year we took a month trip and had a few things happen like a hose disconnected from the refrigerator causing a flood, etc. We had it checked out and fixed things before we left. So we are parked to a couple with a brand new one that cost 121k. They tell us they sold their older one because of stuff that started to happen and with thir new one the same types of things are happening.  Now they are sorry they upgraded.
[/color]

Great advice, and something we follow. I want to drive our current rig into the ground, and can't see ever buying a new one to replace it. Ending up with a really troublesome RV, particularly a motorhome, is far from unusual, and probably pretty surprising to somebody who isn't involved in the hobby. Motorhomes are extremely complex and built in a manner that looks prehistoric, compared to modern vehicle assembly.  They can, and often do, leave the line with a huge amount of defects and poor workmanship. The new owner than gets the unenviable task of partnering with the dealership to repair, rebuilt and replace all the defective materials and shit workmanship. This can take months to years, and can result in the rig being returned to the factory, where a large shop is dedicated to fixing the crap they slam together. In some cases the owner ends up throwing the towel in, and giving up, to the point of liquidating the thing and leaving RVing for good. The rise of Mega-dealers and Mega-dealer chains, (camping world comes to mind) has made the problem even worse, as they tend to have difficulty recruiting and retaining qualified techs. and they  end up with horrible reputations for service, while charging obscene rates of $120-150 Hour to often screw things up worse than they found them.

Personally, I keep a large selection of tools on board and generally repair at least 95% of the issues that continually crop up. Without the skills and tools to fix almost everything, including plumbing, electrical, carpentry, refrigeration, etc..... I would of found a new hobby, long ago. The wife has had several single, older female friends who were giving some though to getting into RVing, typically wanting to start with a used, smaller motorhome. Once I review option A............................ spend a few grand on tools, and learning how to DIY everything, or option B.................... wait your turn at the repair shop, often waiting for weeks to actually get work done, than pay at least $120/hr to somebody that may, or may not, actually get it right the first time, they end up far less enthused.

Yep, this is one passion that's right up there with owning horses, racing cars, and buying boats, when it comes to writing your own personal book titled, "stupid things I wasted money on".

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1697 on: August 15, 2016, 06:37:22 PM »
Anyway, after about six months of buttering up, the guy asked my dad for an obscene amount of money (think six figures). Despite being retired and living on a fixed income they weren't actually financially independent, and they'd gone deeply in debt to buy the travel trailer. They hadn't been able to make the payments on it and were about to lose it for that reason, at which point they'd be homeless. Well, my parents hemmed, hawed, and decided not to give it to him. At that point a shitstorm began (classic tantrum behavior to get what a person wants or punish the person who's refusing to give). I sat back with popcorn and a hearty "I told you so."

This part suprises me in so many ways. Off the top of my head, here is what surprises me:

  • Who asks for a six figure gift/loan?
  • Considering they couldn't make the payments on the RV, that six figure thing would have been a gift not a loan; they already couldn't service the existing loan.
  • Who asks for a six figure gift in cash? Modesty fella.
  • Who gets upset when someone doesn't give them a six figure cash gift? Unless your parents showed them account balances, for all he knew your parent could have had less money than him and been unable to in the first place.
  • Who gets upset when someone doesn't give them a six figure cash gift? Even if your parents show them account balances, its there money and they have no obligation to give it.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1698 on: August 15, 2016, 08:07:41 PM »

I'll never forget one day I was over there, MIL asks me about 401k.  I assumed just to make sure I was saving.  No, she was asking me because she had 0 retirement savings and didn't know where to start!  Like, she was almost in tears.  I could not believe it.

I saw her daughter (my ex) with so many of those traits.  One of the reasons I left her.

I have the same fears in a mate as well, and unfortunately too many people don't have any retirement savings. a friend of mine asked a few months ago for advice on setting up an ira, "It's time I start investing for retirement," she said and I did a good job biting my tongue as she was 33 at the time.

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #1699 on: August 15, 2016, 08:11:18 PM »
Anyway, after about six months of buttering up, the guy asked my dad for an obscene amount of money (think six figures). Despite being retired and living on a fixed income they weren't actually financially independent, and they'd gone deeply in debt to buy the travel trailer. They hadn't been able to make the payments on it and were about to lose it for that reason, at which point they'd be homeless. Well, my parents hemmed, hawed, and decided not to give it to him. At that point a shitstorm began (classic tantrum behavior to get what a person wants or punish the person who's refusing to give). I sat back with popcorn and a hearty "I told you so."

This part suprises me in so many ways. Off the top of my head, here is what surprises me:

  • Who asks for a six figure gift/loan?
  • Considering they couldn't make the payments on the RV, that six figure thing would have been a gift not a loan; they already couldn't service the existing loan.
  • Who asks for a six figure gift in cash? Modesty fella.
  • Who gets upset when someone doesn't give them a six figure cash gift? Unless your parents showed them account balances, for all he knew your parent could have had less money than him and been unable to in the first place.
  • Who gets upset when someone doesn't give them a six figure cash gift? Even if your parents show them account balances, its there money and they have no obligation to give it.

  • That relative, who I think I mentioned was an asshole. Assholes do things like that. It's in their nature.
  • True. The obvious math was obvious, and noted by all.
  • See #1. The play was actually quite sophisticated. He established an emotional rapport, a pattern of giving so as to stimulate reciprocity, and then started the moocher equivalent of crying like a baby to get the breast to release its nutriment.
  • A person trying to manipulate or punish another to get what he wants will frequently throw a tantrum. It goes back to that "asshole" situation I mentioned earlier. He'd also become quite close to my parents, exchanging confidences and whatnot, and was able to make some guesses about the resources that might be available to him if he could just latch on and start sucking. The thing that astounded me is that my folks briefly considered giving him at least something to help with payments toward the yacht-on-wheels, because they were that attached to him due to his manipulative crap.
  • Someone who, at some point, successfully used a tantrum and social pressure to get what he wanted. On the plus side, he cut my parents off and is not speaking to them anymore. I consider that a success.
I squeak softly, but carry a big schtick.