Author Topic: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand  (Read 15479 times)

kuritzl

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Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« on: June 30, 2021, 02:39:49 PM »
I'm in reddit's financialindependance subcategory. someone writes asking about wanting to save 60% of his income.

A reply by doubter #1: Unless you're earning $300k+ in your household, I don't think it's fair to you to say it's easy to keep up a 60% savings rate. For the vast majority of people, it takes a lot of sacrifice to make that happen year after year.

My post: I make $100k, save 40k, and because I save so much my tax is super low. I live in a nice house in the country club and drive a cool car so I don't feel like I'm sacrificing anything. I have one child.

doubter #1: There will always be exceptions but I'm sticking with my assertion that most people need to make sacrifices to save 60% of their take-home pay.

My post:

Paycheck
Salary 8,517 Bonus 852 401k Con 2,044 ARC+Match 852 Fed Tax 285 HSA 658 Med Prem 89 Med Expense 100 Dental 65 Vision 7 LTD 25 Life 42 Legal 16 SS & Medicare &UI 634

Florida House 2080 2nd House 417 Daughters school and misc 474 Two cars 356 Cable and Cells 180 Groceries 600 Other /clothes gifts travel 508 Net Use of Funds 4614

What sacrifice ? As far as I can tell I am blowing way too much money in each category living high on hog.

doubter #2: There is literally zero discretionary spending in there. Do you not travel or have any sort of hobby? You don't have gas for the vehicles or utilities. And your net use of funds is over $55k a year so you're saying you only pay $4700 in income tax, FICA, and healthcare? Sorry bud but I'm calling bullshit on this one.

Me: at some point I drop out of this. I think my other at 508 is a big number and bs caller over here says I have zero discretionary. I kayak, bike, hike, but frankly I blow plenty on all kinds a stuff inside that 508. My tax is low cuz I pump money into deferred accounts and that's how that works. My healthcare is low cuz it work for bigCo and they hook you up. Frankly I budget $100 out of pocket each month in addition to the $100 premium and HSA contribution. I don't really spend that $100. 
I give doubter #1 some credit, I said I make 100k, but really the number is $112 with the bonus, and if I add the match and ARC they give me of 10k maybe my number that I said was 100k is actually $122k loaded. The savings numbers I showed come to 42k, frankly its more as my Housing number has principal in it. 

Still he/she said you need to make $300k to save 60%. If he/she and I were in an exaggeration contest - I think his number is nuts.



I am new to writing anything online anywhere. So a few questions:

Was I too mean in the way I went about my post. Obviously I struck a nerve and he/she must feel insulted ? What happened. I got -4 votes. What did I miss. Maybe I'm wrong.

Are these folks nuts, and only forums like this have hardcore savers ?

Are doubter #1 and doubter #2 just what MMM calls spendy friends and I should learn to live with them. I guess they are normal and I'm nuts ?

Or are they just plain meanies.


CrustyBadger

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2021, 02:57:41 PM »
I'm in reddit's financialindependance subcategory. someone writes asking about wanting to save 60% of his income.

A reply by doubter #1: Unless you're earning $300k+ in your household, I don't think it's fair to you to say it's easy to keep up a 60% savings rate. For the vast majority of people, it takes a lot of sacrifice to make that happen year after year.

My post: I make $100k, save 40k, and because I save so much my tax is super low.

Isn't $40k a 40% savings rate?  Not 60%?

kuritzl

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2021, 03:28:17 PM »
Correct. I didn't say I saved 60%, I was just countering his point that you'd need 300k to save that much with my personal example that didn't seem so far away. Maybe I could have been clearer there.

trollwithamustache

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2021, 03:44:55 PM »
Total waste of time. The internet cannot understand how little people on this site actually drive their cars. Simply cannot fathom it so don't waste your time. 

Do not under any circumstances asked how their gasoline bill went down during COVID when they stopped commuting to work.

dougules

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2021, 04:12:54 PM »
Your posts look pretty tame to me, and they were grounded in solid numbers. 

To be fair, the median income in the US is ~$60k, so a lot of people would have to make real sacrifices to get to that kind of savings rate.  On the other hand a full third of US households make over $100k/yr.  They could spend as much as the bottom third makes and save at least 60% of their income. 

If you got the short end of the economic stick, I might not begrudge you getting a little grumpy at people who are tossing around the idea of saving 60% of their income.  I think a lot of people on there are getting upset because they don't want to confront the fact their poverty is self-imposed, though. 

Metalcat

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2021, 05:29:57 PM »
Reddit is often not very good for your mental health.

Don't worry about it, just don't spend your time engaging with morons.

Zikoris

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2021, 09:03:32 PM »
Reddit gets mad at me too for the same reason. Our net income generally lands somewhere in the 70s and we save 2/3 with pretty close to zero effort, and we've done this for about ten years at this point, so it's certainly sustainable long-term. It's always weird to me when someone tells me I must be working hard and really disciplined and all that shit because the opposite is true. I go out of my way to automate and set my life up to be easy.

SwordGuy

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2021, 09:23:13 PM »
Aside from being a great motivational speaker whose talks I always enjoy, Jim Rohn addresses why you got the result you got starting at about 14:15 in this talk for about the next 4 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APA7yHkt4Jc


Kazyan

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2021, 09:33:57 PM »
The PF/FI kind of subs are all pretty spendy, and $100k+ salaries are all but assumed. r/frugal doesn't actually talk about how to arrange your bills; they just show off one-time arts and crafts.

I can maintain slightly above 60% on just ~$57.2k, but it does take some sacrifice to get those last few percentage points. (Keeping up with online culture would require spending a lot of money on video games and streaming services, which I don't.) Everything else is completely automatic by simply having less-clowny versions of housing and transportation.

Travis

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2021, 10:18:52 PM »
I'm a member of that subreddit as well, but rarely participate. Lately some guy keeps pushing his leveraged hedge fund portfolio looking for validation and I just keep scrolling down.

Tinker

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2021, 11:52:54 PM »
Quote
new to writing online
Lurk more, as it goes.

Reddit is in many places a popularity contest, prone to exponential dogpiling. Subreddits are enclosed spaces for perpetuating tropes. Get worthless internet points by parotting those back and producing or finding content that reaffirms the local brand of beliefs.


nereo

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2021, 04:53:42 AM »
OP - you did nothing wrong and, for what its worth your telling of the event indicates its one of the more tame interactions on reddit boards. Very civil, by that standard (when you consider the ‘norm’ is often accusations that posters are outright liars, eventuallly leading to why your philosophy is as bad as the Nazis)

People have a phenomenally difficult time looking past their own experiences and considering that the world could operate differently. It’s called recency bias.  As Douglas pointed out, people can know that the median household income is ~$60k and understand that many of those households manage to remain solvent while having fun and still save something, and they can do basic math (e.g. $100k - 40k = 60k).  But they their world is earning and spending far more, and they literally cannot reconcile their own world view with the basic math that most people already do this on a daily basis anyway.  Unfortunately, their pre-conceived notions typically win out over objective facts and careful analysis.  They want to spend as much as they do (or more), and they equate more spending with more happiness, so spending less by definition must mean less happiness, ergo you cannot be happy spending that little money.

Of course its not limited to financial discussions, and literally everyone has their own blinders to some degree (e.g. ‘things would be so much better if my party could just pass law X, despite past attempts where ‘x’ hasn’t been all that effective - those were different and don’t apply.’).


dcheesi

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2021, 06:23:22 AM »
I also think that there's a certain narrative, where the average joe is universally downtrodden, and all economic problems are caused by rich folks/big business/the gov't (one can mix & match among these depending on political alignment). Anything that suggests that financial independence is achievable for those with "normal" salaries threatens that narrative, and people respond reflexively to that.

The tricky thing is that most of the elements of said narrative are not wrong; there really are structural issues in our society & economy that need to be addressed. But that's hard to reconcile with the MMM-ish can-do mindset, which tends to put the onus more on the individual.

kuritzl

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2021, 07:02:32 AM »
Your posts look pretty tame to me, and they were grounded in solid numbers. 

To be fair, the median income in the US is ~$60k, so a lot of people would have to make real sacrifices to get to that kind of savings rate.  On the other hand a full third of US households make over $100k/yr.  They could spend as much as the bottom third makes and save at least 60% of their income. 

If you got the short end of the economic stick, I might not begrudge you getting a little grumpy at people who are tossing around the idea of saving 60% of their income.  I think a lot of people on there are getting upset because they don't want to confront the fact their poverty is self-imposed, though.

This is an example of how to counter expand views on an argument in a cool way. You passed on a bit of validation of my view, an opposition view that many can have (likely very many by your stats), yet sliced it in the middle.

I think then there is something to be said of either a grasp of good communication skills, culture in different circles, intelligence, or something.

Metalcat

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2021, 07:08:01 AM »
Your posts look pretty tame to me, and they were grounded in solid numbers. 

To be fair, the median income in the US is ~$60k, so a lot of people would have to make real sacrifices to get to that kind of savings rate.  On the other hand a full third of US households make over $100k/yr.  They could spend as much as the bottom third makes and save at least 60% of their income. 

If you got the short end of the economic stick, I might not begrudge you getting a little grumpy at people who are tossing around the idea of saving 60% of their income.  I think a lot of people on there are getting upset because they don't want to confront the fact their poverty is self-imposed, though.

This is an example of how to counter expand views on an argument in a cool way. You passed on a bit of validation of my view, an opposition view that many can have (likely very many by your stats), yet sliced it in the middle.

I think then there is something to be said of either a grasp of good communication skills, culture in different circles, intelligence, or something.

That's the thing.

Forums are a great place to learn things by taking what is helpful and ignoring the rest. They're also a great place to learn how others think and how to communicate with people who think differently from you.

Neither benefit necessitates that you get in any way invested in what strangers think about you or your life choices.

ender

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2021, 07:17:16 AM »
Another perspective:

Quote
My post: I make $100k, save 40k, and because I save so much my tax is super low. I live in a nice house in the country club and drive a cool car so I don't feel like I'm sacrificing anything. I have one child.

Quote
doubter #1: There will always be exceptions but I'm sticking with my assertion that most people need to make sacrifices to save 60% of their take-home pay.

Both of these posts can be true.

You personally can feel like you aren't sacrificing and yet "most people" would feel like they are sacrificing something to save 60%.

The reason you got downvoted is because explicitly ignoring what someone said and then throwing a bunch of numbers of your personal situation doesn't actually refute what "doubter #1" said anyways. Either directly or even indirectly.

Unless your implication is actually "most people wouldn't sacrifice anything" there's a strong "most people wouldn't sacrifice anything [according to my value system, not theirs]" that the person responded to. Which you completely missed in arguing with them.

Quote
My post: I make $100k, save 40k, and because I save so much my tax is super low. I live in a nice house in the country club and drive a cool car so I don't feel like I'm sacrificing anything. I have one child.

So basically you respond to a post about saving 60% saying "I save 40%" and then use incorrect math to get there (40k / 112k isn't 40% either). As evidence of how easy it is to save 60%?

I'm... not surprised you got downvoted on Reddit.

kuritzl

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2021, 07:25:42 AM »
I dig all these comments. I feel like replying to each one with big thanks.

The ones who show how they have done it - wow to you. I wish I had learned to watch my budget earlier. Maybe my 35 years of work could have been 20 or less had I figured that out. Going forward I plan on making it a goal, finding the balance of fun on the cheap. It sure seems like the list of the very best things are not so costly.

Those who added the parts about how people behave is so insightful. I am reminded of people in cars. It seems if you almost bump into someone in person, you both stop and apologize, never contemplating who was at fault, likely self blaming. In the car it seems the first reaction is some hand waving gesture that signals what the h is wrong with you. Often the negative gesture is done by the person in the wrong. I always feel like I do when walking (at first), then if the other person tosses the gesture and I agree I was wrong, I humbly wave in submission with a bowed head, but when they are wrong yet mad at me I just wish I had a light up marquee that explains the exact rule, or a fake police light to re - humble them. Maybe that distance gives folks some odd behavior change, and maybe that's what is happening online, so impersonal behind the keyboard maybe. 

Metalcat

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2021, 07:30:48 AM »
Yep, the internet is intense.

Also, if you use inaccurate details, like explained above, expect to be heavily shit on. It's the internet, people like nothing more than a pile on when they catch you in a provable mistake.

Yes, internet conduct is wildly different from in person conduct. Some of us are bolder behind the screen, some of us, like me, are actually much gentler than in person.

The learning curve is steep. You will be pissed off, and you will piss other people off.

DeniseNJ

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2021, 08:30:48 AM »
If you make 300k in wages, you bring home A LOT less than that. SS and Medicare are over 37k alone. And your 19K in your 401K will shelter very little of your income to make much of a tax difference. Plus you don't qualify for a bunch of tax credits and deductions. And if you live in NJ, you're screwed re taxes, bc NJ taxes EVERYTHING, including college funds, 403b, etc, plus the property taxes will kill you. 

You couldn't save 60% since your taxes alone are over 40%. BUT, yes you can save tons of your take home. Can you do it without major sacrifices?  Well, most ppl can't, but only bc what they consider sacrifice and what we consider sacrifices are totally different.  I drive a 3K car and love it. I also have a net worth of about $1M. Coincidence? Nope. Many would consider that a sacrifice but I rather have the dough.

MrMoogle

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2021, 10:17:44 AM »
If you're paying a mortgage, the principal portion could be included in savings IMO.

I've saved ~50% of my pre-tax income every year.  I'm sure it's over 60% post-tax many of them.  I did stay at home with my parents for a couple years, and when I had a house, I included the principal in that savings.  I switched to part time before my salary hit $100k.  I started at $55k I believe, in 2007.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2021, 09:50:24 AM »
Reddit has some great people who are brilliant, and some dummies. Same as here.

You say "I spend on all this stuff," and they say you have no discretionary spending. Why? Because they have other stuff they'd spend on.

DadJokes

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2021, 12:01:50 PM »
Everything involves some degree of sacrifice, even a 0% saving rate. So I guess doubter #1 wasn't wrong in that regard.

I wouldn't spend too much time trying to justify your spending/saving over there (or anywhere on the internet). Too many people are out to either shit on someone else or play the victim.

kuritzl

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2021, 03:02:42 PM »
It happened again. Someone with 2.7M was questioning could they leave work to raise a kid. I mentioned that's kind of what MMM said he did on much less, so yes. Violence erupted, as someone else said he's rich off his blog, can't use that advice. I tried to rebuttal a bit with his early start, but they blasted a link to his post that he sold his website for 9mil and again said don't listen to these falsehoods. That's rich, since that whole post was a joke, that this angry person didn't read ( obviously). Funny.

MilesTeg

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2021, 03:18:52 PM »
For the overwhelming majority of people, saving 60% of their income (pre or post tax) does indeed require a lot of sacrifice (and for many is completely, utterly impossible).

Not even MMM denies that.

It also doesn't mean (all) those sacrifices are things that matter.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2021, 03:25:05 PM »
Some people just love to be special. How dare you make broad generalities without acknowledging the unique challenges of this or that group.

Tell them that you have found that taking a 20 minute walk around your house once a day has improved you in some way and really everyone should try it. Watch someone accuse you of forgetting about the amputees, the single moms who don't have 20 minutes a day, and other people for whom that's also Just Not Possible™, how insensitive of you.

I'm exaggerating, but not that much.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 03:26:43 PM by Paul der Krake »

kuritzl

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2021, 03:58:21 PM »
That's really funny since I a really ride my bike in my house. It's not a big house, it's an open arrangement, I ride around the kitchen island, into to living room, and back around the island again.practicing slow ride balance while talking to my daughter who thinks I'm nuts. Maybe I should post how riding around your bike in your house makes you wealthy or a better person in some way, but only after I try the walk you suggested.

SwordGuy

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2021, 05:34:03 PM »
Some people just love to be special. How dare you make broad generalities without acknowledging the unique challenges of this or that group.

Tell them that you have found that taking a 20 minute walk around your house once a day has improved you in some way and really everyone should try it. Watch someone accuse you of forgetting about the amputees, the single moms who don't have 20 minutes a day, and other people for whom that's also Just Not Possible™, how insensitive of you.

I'm exaggerating, but not that much.

Much as I like my fellow liberal friends, your comment rings true.

daverobev

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2021, 11:07:44 AM »
There is /r/FIRE, /r/leanFIRE, and /r/povertyFIRE... one person's "can't" is another's "but I already do".

You can't argue with someone earning $50k (or whatever) who says it's impossible to live on $10k. It just doesn't work.

I think one real eye-opener was, after moving to Canada and being 'self employed' after having a normal office job until reasonably recently, was walking to the library and just seeing lots of people. "Why aren't they at work?!" was my immediate reaction. Then you just kind've go... oh, yeah, it isn't necessary.

But for people that *do* work in an office 9-5, 5 days a week, they "couldn't" imagine anything else.

/shrug

nereo

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2021, 05:51:56 AM »
Some people just love to be special. How dare you make broad generalities without acknowledging the unique challenges of this or that group.

Tell them that you have found that taking a 20 minute walk around your house once a day has improved you in some way and really everyone should try it. Watch someone accuse you of forgetting about the amputees, the single moms who don't have 20 minutes a day, and other people for whom that's also Just Not Possible™, how insensitive of you.

I'm exaggerating, but not that much.

Much as I like my fellow liberal friends, your comment rings true.

What does the above have to do with your liberal friends?

sparkytheop

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2021, 01:05:54 PM »
If you make 300k in wages, you bring home A LOT less than that. SS and Medicare are over 37k alone. And your 19K in your 401K will shelter very little of your income to make much of a tax difference. Plus you don't qualify for a bunch of tax credits and deductions. And if you live in NJ, you're screwed re taxes, bc NJ taxes EVERYTHING, including college funds, 403b, etc, plus the property taxes will kill you. 

You couldn't save 60% since your taxes alone are over 40%. BUT, yes you can save tons of your take home. Can you do it without major sacrifices?  Well, most ppl can't, but only bc what they consider sacrifice and what we consider sacrifices are totally different.  I drive a 3K car and love it. I also have a net worth of about $1M. Coincidence? Nope. Many would consider that a sacrifice but I rather have the dough.

It's actually closer to $14k for SS and Medicare (if not self-employed, and married people would have to do that for each income).  SS caps out at income of $142.8k, but medicare does increase from 1.45% to 2.35% after the first $200k.  However, saving in pre-tax retirement accounts can reduce these taxes some.  Not a lot, but some.

And, yeah, state taxes suck. 

« Last Edit: July 10, 2021, 01:09:48 PM by sparkytheop »

UpNAtom

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2021, 05:51:04 PM »
You're fine. There are a lot of people that can't accept that a lot of people's incomes are "wasted".  Once you move away from poverty and median income lines, many people see most expenses as "normal" instead of luxueries.  With an income of ~110k, I saved ~50% of it last year and I consider that EXTRAVAGANT.  Last month was ~55% saved and I splurged on some home brewing gear.

Always keep in mind that there tends to be a "hockey stick curve" on how much is needed/can be saved. 

clarkfan1979

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2021, 08:50:45 PM »
Your posts look pretty tame to me, and they were grounded in solid numbers. 

To be fair, the median income in the US is ~$60k, so a lot of people would have to make real sacrifices to get to that kind of savings rate.  On the other hand a full third of US households make over $100k/yr.  They could spend as much as the bottom third makes and save at least 60% of their income. 

If you got the short end of the economic stick, I might not begrudge you getting a little grumpy at people who are tossing around the idea of saving 60% of their income.  I think a lot of people on there are getting upset because they don't want to confront the fact their poverty is self-imposed, though.

When I got into my early 40's, people starting splitting into two different camps. The savers were starting to have a good time and celebrate. The one's that were not good planners start to get bitter and blame everyone else for their money problems, except themselves.

Zikoris

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2021, 08:59:13 PM »
Your posts look pretty tame to me, and they were grounded in solid numbers. 

To be fair, the median income in the US is ~$60k, so a lot of people would have to make real sacrifices to get to that kind of savings rate.  On the other hand a full third of US households make over $100k/yr.  They could spend as much as the bottom third makes and save at least 60% of their income. 

If you got the short end of the economic stick, I might not begrudge you getting a little grumpy at people who are tossing around the idea of saving 60% of their income.  I think a lot of people on there are getting upset because they don't want to confront the fact their poverty is self-imposed, though.

When I got into my early 40's, people starting splitting into two different camps. The savers were starting to have a good time and celebrate. The one's that were not good planners start to get bitter and blame everyone else for their money problems, except themselves.

I'm in my mid-30s and also starting to notice the divergence of the people who made good decisions and the people who made bad ones. It definitely takes a number of years for it to be really apparent. There's a really good ERE post showing the math behind how some people end up so much ahead of their peers, even with the same income and life situation: https://earlyretirementextreme.com/update-3-interesting-spreadsheet-calculation.html

nereo

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2021, 04:37:13 AM »
Your posts look pretty tame to me, and they were grounded in solid numbers. 

To be fair, the median income in the US is ~$60k, so a lot of people would have to make real sacrifices to get to that kind of savings rate.  On the other hand a full third of US households make over $100k/yr.  They could spend as much as the bottom third makes and save at least 60% of their income. 

If you got the short end of the economic stick, I might not begrudge you getting a little grumpy at people who are tossing around the idea of saving 60% of their income.  I think a lot of people on there are getting upset because they don't want to confront the fact their poverty is self-imposed, though.

When I got into my early 40's, people starting splitting into two different camps. The savers were starting to have a good time and celebrate. The one's that were not good planners start to get bitter and blame everyone else for their money problems, except themselves.


Interesting observation- I’m just starting to see this at play amount our peers (mostly late 30s/early 40s). Us savers are doing things like buying rental properties and otherwise ‘surfing the wave’. We aren’t overly inconvenienced when a major expense hits like a car replacement, and we start thinking very long term, like renovating/building our ‘forever-home’.

Those who have not been great savers still get stressed putting together enough cash for a security deposit to move out of their current place. They are baffled at how we can qualify for a sub 3% loan (bad credit scores) even though we earn about the same, and their horizon is rarely longer than a couple months. 

It has started to cleave our cohort as the things we talk and do and worry about are completely different.  This has been true even among siblings within the same family.

ender

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2021, 06:51:55 AM »
When I hit my 40s I'm hoping to retire, so it certainly will be an interesting difference with peers ;-)

nereo

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2021, 10:06:06 AM »
When I hit my 40s I'm hoping to retire, so it certainly will be an interesting difference with peers ;-)

My experience is there’s a lot of skepticism involved by non-frugal peers.  We never discuss our FI/RE plans IRL, but I’ve been involved in several discussions where people our age (and often quite a few years older) steadfastly argue that retirement is impossible on salaries such as ours. Recently I had two separate people remark that  “people like us simply cannot buy a [newish] car without a car loan these days.”  Having $20-30k is beyond their scope.  Having enough $ to not work for half a century is like suggesting going for a 50 mile run.  Sure, a few rare few have done it, but they’re freaks - normal humans could never do such a thing.


dougules

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2021, 02:55:45 PM »
Your posts look pretty tame to me, and they were grounded in solid numbers. 

To be fair, the median income in the US is ~$60k, so a lot of people would have to make real sacrifices to get to that kind of savings rate.  On the other hand a full third of US households make over $100k/yr.  They could spend as much as the bottom third makes and save at least 60% of their income. 

If you got the short end of the economic stick, I might not begrudge you getting a little grumpy at people who are tossing around the idea of saving 60% of their income.  I think a lot of people on there are getting upset because they don't want to confront the fact their poverty is self-imposed, though.

When I got into my early 40's, people starting splitting into two different camps. The savers were starting to have a good time and celebrate. The one's that were not good planners start to get bitter and blame everyone else for their money problems, except themselves.

I'm in my mid-30s and also starting to notice the divergence of the people who made good decisions and the people who made bad ones. It definitely takes a number of years for it to be really apparent. There's a really good ERE post showing the math behind how some people end up so much ahead of their peers, even with the same income and life situation: https://earlyretirementextreme.com/update-3-interesting-spreadsheet-calculation.html

It can be hard to judge people there to some extent, though.  Their bad decisions didn't happen in a vacuum.  To some extent, yes, it is their fault.  But I don't take it for granted that I got a good education, was raised to value frugality, had a stable home environment, am good with math, was taught critical thinking skills, never used spending as an unhealthy coping mechanism for bad mental health, etc. etc.  Even if I'd never been given a dime when I was younger, those things were worth an incredible amount.  We're also swimming in a sea of ads, and they wouldn't be there if they didn't work.  We need cultural change to support people making better decisions.  I hope we're part of a cultural change like that right now, and I think some compassion towards people who have made bad decisions or are about to make bad decisions might grease the skids a little there.  (Not intended to be a criticism of you)

kuritzl

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2021, 07:26:17 PM »
I did have a friend at work, I am sure he made more money than me. He had told me regularly about cool things he was doing ( the infrared hot room, backyard bar, the truck, etc. At some point we were discussing retirement plans and he is saying how can you afford that.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2021, 06:04:04 AM »
I did have a friend at work, I am sure he made more money than me. He had told me regularly about cool things he was doing ( the infrared hot room, backyard bar, the truck, etc. At some point we were discussing retirement plans and he is saying how can you afford that.

People are blind to the true cost of their spending habits.  Years ago we took a vacation to Club Med, and friends could not believe we could afford it.  They smoked.  We asked them to do the arithmetic, and they spent as much on cigarettes a year as we had spent on the vacation.

That is what the MMM blog was all about, examining spending to see what is valuable and what is trivial.  It is a message a lot of people just do not want to hear, because they like their toys too much.

DeniseNJ

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2021, 11:11:02 AM »
If you make 300k in wages, you bring home A LOT less than that. SS and Medicare are over 37k alone. And your 19K in your 401K will shelter very little of your income to make much of a tax difference. Plus you don't qualify for a bunch of tax credits and deductions. And if you live in NJ, you're screwed re taxes, bc NJ taxes EVERYTHING, including college funds, 403b, etc, plus the property taxes will kill you. 

You couldn't save 60% since your taxes alone are over 40%. BUT, yes you can save tons of your take home. Can you do it without major sacrifices?  Well, most ppl can't, but only bc what they consider sacrifice and what we consider sacrifices are totally different.  I drive a 3K car and love it. I also have a net worth of about $1M. Coincidence? Nope. Many would consider that a sacrifice but I rather have the dough.

It's actually closer to $14k for SS and Medicare (if not self-employed, and married people would have to do that for each income).  SS caps out at income of $142.8k, but medicare does increase from 1.45% to 2.35% after the first $200k.  However, saving in pre-tax retirement accounts can reduce these taxes some.  Not a lot, but some.

And, yeah, state taxes suck.

Ah, true, I forgot about the cap.

Some pretax accounts just aren't available.  Like a roth IRA is not an option and a tax deductible IRA is not tax deductible.  Still rather have it and get taxed on it than not have it. :)

SwordGuy

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2021, 05:52:51 PM »
Some people just love to be special. How dare you make broad generalities without acknowledging the unique challenges of this or that group.

Tell them that you have found that taking a 20 minute walk around your house once a day has improved you in some way and really everyone should try it. Watch someone accuse you of forgetting about the amputees, the single moms who don't have 20 minutes a day, and other people for whom that's also Just Not Possible™, how insensitive of you.

I'm exaggerating, but not that much.

Much as I like my fellow liberal friends, your comment rings true.

What does the above have to do with your liberal friends?

My fellow liberal friends, to be accurate.  It's an important distinction.

When I have presented common sense ideas for regular folks to improve their financial situation, I've often been castigated by my fellow liberal friends because whatever advice I gave couldn't possibly be used by a one-eyed, half-legged, deaf diabetic dyslexic with anxiety and terminal cancer, so clearly my financial advice was of absolutely zero value to anyone.  Oh, and how dare I not care about the baby seals, too!

Ok, that last sentence is a bit of an exaggeration.   But not by much.






Metalcat

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2021, 06:28:52 PM »
Some people just love to be special. How dare you make broad generalities without acknowledging the unique challenges of this or that group.

Tell them that you have found that taking a 20 minute walk around your house once a day has improved you in some way and really everyone should try it. Watch someone accuse you of forgetting about the amputees, the single moms who don't have 20 minutes a day, and other people for whom that's also Just Not Possible™, how insensitive of you.

I'm exaggerating, but not that much.

Much as I like my fellow liberal friends, your comment rings true.

What does the above have to do with your liberal friends?

My fellow liberal friends, to be accurate.  It's an important distinction.

When I have presented common sense ideas for regular folks to improve their financial situation, I've often been castigated by my fellow liberal friends because whatever advice I gave couldn't possibly be used by a one-eyed, half-legged, deaf diabetic dyslexic with anxiety and terminal cancer, so clearly my financial advice was of absolutely zero value to anyone.  Oh, and how dare I not care about the baby seals, too!

Ok, that last sentence is a bit of an exaggeration.   But not by much.

Sounds like you have a problem of having douchy friends.

My circle is pretty hardcore leftist, by Canadian standards, so that's true left. And they don't pull that shit. There's a difference between getting into the weeds on a concept and exploring the downline effects of a theoretical, vs being a whataboutism douchebag who isn't arguing to explore intellectual concepts, but instead to try and make themselves feel smart.

sparkytheop

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2021, 06:30:39 PM »
I once shared my story of how I went from high school pregnancy, to eventual single parent (after a short marriage where my ex left and never looked back), to putting myself through school and then into the trades, and ending up with a six figure income with great benefits.  I was accused of trying to "bootstrap" people, and offered "a cookie".  Apparently, the request for ideas from the OP was seen by others not as "how to make this situation better", but only "tell me how impossible life is going to be for me now, and there is nothing I can do to not end up on welfare for life."  Because being a single mom is tough, yanno.  And how dare I suggest a single mom try to do school and/or work, don't I know how much daycare costs?

There are a lot of people who don't want to be told that something can be done, especially if it's pointing out their own refusal to do what is necessary to make things happen.

Model96

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2021, 06:39:38 PM »
I also think that there's a certain narrative, where the average joe is universally downtrodden, and all economic problems are caused by rich folks/big business/the gov't (one can mix & match among these depending on political alignment). Anything that suggests that financial independence is achievable for those with "normal" salaries threatens that narrative, and people respond reflexively to that.

The tricky thing is that most of the elements of said narrative are not wrong; there really are structural issues in our society & economy that need to be addressed. But that's hard to reconcile with the MMM-ish can-do mindset, which tends to put the onus more on the individual.

True !
Except that it's not just the average Joe that thinks that, at least here in Australia. I remember a newspaper article that explained how you were still 'poor' even on a salary of over $100K. I pinned it on our (well paying) work noticeboard and I was amazed that the majority of people agreed with it and almost held on to the miserable article like a liferaft…

Chris Pascale

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2021, 02:47:38 PM »
I once shared my story of how I went from high school pregnancy, to eventual single parent (after a short marriage where my ex left and never looked back), to putting myself through school and then into the trades, and ending up with a six figure income with great benefits.  I was accused of trying to "bootstrap" people, and offered "a cookie".  Apparently, the request for ideas from the OP was seen by others not as "how to make this situation better", but only "tell me how impossible life is going to be for me now, and there is nothing I can do to not end up on welfare for life."  Because being a single mom is tough, yanno.  And how dare I suggest a single mom try to do school and/or work, don't I know how much daycare costs?

There are a lot of people who don't want to be told that something can be done, especially if it's pointing out their own refusal to do what is necessary to make things happen.

I hope you took the cookie. Always take the cookie.

Congratulations.

DadJokes

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2021, 06:22:09 AM »
I saw a post on Reddit last week that reminded me of this thread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/oj3hsn/oc_my_income_and_spendings_first_year_of_post/

Guy posts a Sankey diagram of his budget for a year, in which he saves 50% of his income, and people couldn't believe how low his expenses were.

ender

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2021, 06:57:49 AM »
I saw a post on Reddit last week that reminded me of this thread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/oj3hsn/oc_my_income_and_spendings_first_year_of_post/

Guy posts a Sankey diagram of his budget for a year, in which he saves 50% of his income, and people couldn't believe how low his expenses were.

This is one of the coolest Sankey diagrams I've ever seen!

pound_foolish

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2021, 11:56:49 AM »
I meant to post this a few days ago, when the conversation was on the topic of people claiming that, sure, you with your supposed 10-figure income can save 50% of your income, but no way with under 100k! There's this YouTuber I like to watch (although he's more of a Dave Ramsey type than a Mustachian), who goes by the name of "Q Makes It Happen", who last week put out the obligatory (on YouTube) "My Net Worth" video. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSgbpkzSsjE&t=463s for the bit where he talks about how he went from 33k in debt to 47k in the bank in 5 years, despite his income in the first four of those years being 18k, 24k, 35k, and 47k, respectively. Just another example of how it can be done (I say, being unable to do it myself).

BicycleB

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2021, 02:36:08 PM »
OP, you survived posting on Reddit with nothing damaged but your pride - congrats. :)

Liked the Sankey diagram. Good job with your lifestyle design and finances, keep it up.

PDXTabs

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Re: Reddit Guys Got Mad at My Savings Help Me Understand
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2021, 04:46:11 PM »
I saw a post on Reddit last week that reminded me of this thread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/oj3hsn/oc_my_income_and_spendings_first_year_of_post/

Guy posts a Sankey diagram of his budget for a year, in which he saves 50% of his income, and people couldn't believe how low his expenses were.

That's great! And if you trust this subforum belongs in the Americans now spend more in bars & restaurants than grocery stores thread.