Author Topic: Payday lenders preying on military service members  (Read 6214 times)

PindyStache

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Payday lenders preying on military service members
« on: November 22, 2013, 10:39:08 AM »
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/11/21/service-members-left-vulnerable-to-payday-loans/?hp&_r=0

Quote
The sheer availability of the loans can make it tough to abstain. Ana Hernandez, who oversees the so-called financial readiness program at Fort Bliss, says that soldiers on the base readily take out loans to buy things like electronic goods. “They are loans for wants, not for necessities at all,” she said.

I'm not sure what's worse, the fact that people are taking out payday loans to buy consumer electronics, or that Congress is incapable of writing regulations to effectively limit these practices (or maybe you think Congress shouldn't and it should just be up to people individually to not fall for these terrible schemes)... either way definitely lots of shame and comedy to go around.

Angelfishtitan

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2013, 11:20:56 AM »
the fact that people are taking out payday loans to buy consumer electronics

This is worse in my opinion. I hate the idea of people being taken advantage of by these companies, but some responsibility needs to be put on the victim in the situation of them using it to buy luxury goods. Almost all service members have completed high school, and the small minority left have an equivalent certificate except in rare cases. I don't mind laws requiring these companies to be very blatant with payments and rates, but this isn't math beyond a HS graduate's understanding.

Heck, some of these people are taking out loans to pay off previous loans. If they are set payments how would this happen except in a multiple emergency situation? Military pay isn't huge, but it certainly isn't low with room and board allowance.

Nords

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2013, 07:32:19 PM »
I'm not sure what's worse, the fact that people are taking out payday loans to buy consumer electronics, or that Congress is incapable of writing regulations to effectively limit these practices (or maybe you think Congress shouldn't and it should just be up to people individually to not fall for these terrible schemes)... either way definitely lots of shame and comedy to go around.
"Why, how dare we restrict access to credit for those who are willing to give their lives to guarantee our easy access to it!"
-- A public-service announcement by the Payday Lenders Lobby Group

The law eliminated a lot of the bad actors, but it's an arms race.  Even then a few innovative lenders have arranged licensing from Native American tribes which are not subject to this federal legislation, so the problem will never go away.  The short-term solution is for the base commander to declare these businesses off-limits to the troops, which usually just turns the businesses into even more attractive nuisances (and more mobile ones-- online!).  The only long-term solution is financially-proficient servicemembers.  How financially proficient were we when we were teenagers?

Loopholes are nothing new-- look at the Servicemembers Civil Relief Act.  SCRA includes a provision which requires reducing interest rates on debt to 6%.  Sounds pretty good, right?  Except that when some servicemembers properly invoke their SCRA rights, unscrupulous lenders pull tricks like deferment (which allows interest to accumulate on the loan balance) or charging "fees" to comply with SCRA.  A few lenders actually raised the interest rate on low-interest debt (student loans) to 6%.

Military pay isn't huge, but it certainly isn't low with room and board allowance.
Let's say that you're the average E-2 living in the barracks.  Your base pay is $1700/month before taxes.  (http://www.dfas.mil/dms/dfas/militarymembers/pdf/MilPayTable2013_1.pdf)  Assuming you work 20 days per month (Ha!) that's $85/day.  Assuming an eight-hour workday (Oh stop, yer killin' us here!) that's $10.62/hour.  Yes, you have housing & food allowances, but those are calculated based on average expenses for that ZIP code so it's essentially a wash.  You still "need" a smartphone, an LCD TV, an Xbox, transportation, and a liquor stipend.  Oh, and recruit training was pretty rough so you have a lot of living to catch up on.  Plus your sergeant is making your life miserable so you deserve to cut loose a little.  It's highly likely that you've never had a credit card before, let alone a credit score, so that friendly car dealer outside the back gate ("We finance E-1 & up!!") may be your only source of capital.

I'm not an expert on teenage wages for high school graduates, but $10.62 (even with room & board) probably doesn't lend itself to building a huge emergency fund very quickly.  Add in consumerism and modern marketing.  Sure, most E-2s become E-3s fairly quickly, but once they get behind the debt curve then it's hard to get back above it.

And, no, it's not the military's job to train their servicemembers on financial proficiency-- only financial responsibility.  (Imagine if Wal-Mart made their rank & file attend mandatory training on budgeting and the 401(k).)  Servicemembers (and their leaders) have better things to do with their time.  The best leaders make the time to show their troops how to gain financial proficiency, but for most the only way to gain it is through an occasional government agency (like FINRA or CFPB, for whatever that's worth) and the personal-finance industry.  You know, pretty much the way it is for civilians.

Angelfishtitan

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2013, 08:57:23 AM »
Military pay isn't huge, but it certainly isn't low with room and board allowance.
Let's say that you're the average E-2 living in the barracks.  Your base pay is $1700/month before taxes.  (http://www.dfas.mil/dms/dfas/militarymembers/pdf/MilPayTable2013_1.pdf)  Assuming you work 20 days per month (Ha!) that's $85/day.  Assuming an eight-hour workday (Oh stop, yer killin' us here!) that's $10.62/hour.  Yes, you have housing & food allowances, but those are calculated based on average expenses for that ZIP code so it's essentially a wash.  You still "need" a smartphone, an LCD TV, an Xbox, transportation, and a liquor stipend.  Oh, and recruit training was pretty rough so you have a lot of living to catch up on.  Plus your sergeant is making your life miserable so you deserve to cut loose a little.  It's highly likely that you've never had a credit card before, let alone a credit score, so that friendly car dealer outside the back gate ("We finance E-1 & up!!") may be your only source of capital.

The hourly wage is obviously junk for a military personnel, but you can't compare apples and oranges by not including the room and board allowance but throwing out the hourly rate. Almost seventy percent of my budget is home/grocery expenses, the allowance in my area of ~$1400/month is pretty close to my ~$1750/month (~1300/month if you take off principal) expenses, and that would be lower if you were in an apartment or smaller home. The additional $1700/month after that is $20K/year, hardly a small amount when most of this can be spent of non-necessities.

I'm not saying predatory lenders aren't straight up assholes, but there is something better to be done then banning them.

CommonCents

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2013, 09:10:54 AM »
Military pay isn't huge, but it certainly isn't low with room and board allowance.
Let's say that you're the average E-2 living in the barracks.  Your base pay is $1700/month before taxes.  (http://www.dfas.mil/dms/dfas/militarymembers/pdf/MilPayTable2013_1.pdf)  Assuming you work 20 days per month (Ha!) that's $85/day.  Assuming an eight-hour workday (Oh stop, yer killin' us here!) that's $10.62/hour.  Yes, you have housing & food allowances, but those are calculated based on average expenses for that ZIP code so it's essentially a wash.

I lived on that with no room and board in a major city (Boston).  It can be done.

I guess I'm not quite sure why Congress needs to get involved to protect service members.  If they are going to go big brother and step in to prohibit this behavior, I would actually prefer big brother for everyone, rather than just focused on service members.  Why are we more concerned about an enlisted military member than anyone else earning a super low pay (and perhaps desperate to pay for basic food/health care treatment - or the latest smart phone)?

Guizmo

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2013, 10:13:00 AM »
I don't think government has to come in and prohibit predatory lending (not really when you consider the interest they charge in other countries). However, public schools have to teach the young ones about personal finance, savings, etc. Start in Middle School and reinforce it until they graduate.

MrsPete

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2013, 11:43:09 AM »
I don't mind laws requiring these companies to be very blatant with payments and rates, but this isn't math beyond a HS graduate's understanding.
I agree.  It's the individual's responsibility to know what he's borrowing, and these things ARE taught in high school.  They just don't stick with the kids because they don't see them as applicable at the time -- all high schoolers think they're going to step out into the world of work and make loads of money right away. 

Let's say that you're the average E-2 living in the barracks.  Your base pay is $1700/month before taxes.  (http://www.dfas.mil/dms/dfas/militarymembers/pdf/MilPayTable2013_1.pdf)  Assuming you work 20 days per month (Ha!) that's $85/day.  Assuming an eight-hour workday (Oh stop, yer killin' us here!) that's $10.62/hour . . .
I don't think this low-intro pay is unique to military personnel.  Compared to their civilian peers (considering just those with only a high school education 'cause I'm assuming that a person with more education would be ranked higher than an E-2), I'd think they're actually a little better off:  They do have housing, medical, and other things covered . . . even if their salary is low.  Plenty of just-out-of-high-school kids are earning $10-11/hour, and they don't get the housing allowances, etc.  (Of course, to be fair, no one is shooting at the $10-11/hour civilian worker, and no one tells him he has to live across the country from his family, and those are a very big differences.)

What I'd ask is, How long might an entry-level military fellow expect to stay an E-2?  Can he expect to move up in ranks (and escape "entry level pay") more quickly or more slowly than his civilian counterparts? 

Nords

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2013, 12:22:54 PM »
Let's say that you're the average E-2 living in the barracks.  Your base pay is $1700/month before taxes.  (http://www.dfas.mil/dms/dfas/militarymembers/pdf/MilPayTable2013_1.pdf)  Assuming you work 20 days per month (Ha!) that's $85/day.  Assuming an eight-hour workday (Oh stop, yer killin' us here!) that's $10.62/hour . . .
I don't think this low-intro pay is unique to military personnel.  Compared to their civilian peers (considering just those with only a high school education 'cause I'm assuming that a person with more education would be ranked higher than an E-2), I'd think they're actually a little better off:  They do have housing, medical, and other things covered . . . even if their salary is low.  Plenty of just-out-of-high-school kids are earning $10-11/hour, and they don't get the housing allowances, etc.  (Of course, to be fair, no one is shooting at the $10-11/hour civilian worker, and no one tells him he has to live across the country from his family, and those are a very big differences.)

What I'd ask is, How long might an entry-level military fellow expect to stay an E-2?  Can he expect to move up in ranks (and escape "entry level pay") more quickly or more slowly than his civilian counterparts?
As others have pointed out, it's extremely difficult to compare living costs across the nation.  It may be an oversimplification to assume that the military's housing allowance makes housing expenses a wash.  However the military establishes the allowance to cover 100% of rent & utilities.  (When I was in uniform during the last millennium, the standard was only 85%.)  Allowances are based on annual cost-of-living surveys organized by ZIP codes-- and whenever possible, landlords use the military's housing allowance for their area to set rents.  And in Hawaii, if you're earning $10-$11/hour, it's quite likely that you're living with your parents... and maybe your grandparents too.

You would think a servicemember with more education would be ranked higher than an E-2, but they're not.  They're mostly promoted by time in that paygrade, performance on standardized advancement exams, and whether there are vacancies to promote to.  Perhaps 1%-5% can advance faster through exceptional performance or special programs.  (And, as many servicemembers & veterans will attest, any schmuck with a bachelors degree can apply to be an officer...)  Across a broad bell curve (and five military services) I'd say that an E-2 will promote to E-3 within a year of joining the service.  That might be slower for the Marine Corps or some Army skills, and it's a heck of a lot faster for nuclear-trained enlisted in the Navy's submarine force. 

I think you're right:  the military offers faster promotion/advancement prospects than most civilian careers, and again this is based on broad industry survey data.  The military also offers greater likelihood of continued employment as well as much greater responsibility for equipment & budget, and much greater leadership opportunities.  Again it's a big broad bell curve with most of it concentrated in elite units like the Marine Corps, Army Rangers, Navy SEALs & submariners, Air Force aviation, and Coast Guard rescue. 

Yes, military healthcare is free for active-duty servicemembers.  It's very cheap for their families.  I don't think there's an equivalent civilian comparison.

However once you're in the payday lending trap, it's extremely difficult to break out of by promotions & pay raises alone.  Just like credit card debt, it requires a fundamental behavior change and perhaps months of fiscal austerity.

rockstache

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2013, 12:34:16 PM »
Military pay isn't huge, but it certainly isn't low with room and board allowance.
Let's say that you're the average E-2 living in the barracks.  Your base pay is $1700/month before taxes.  (http://www.dfas.mil/dms/dfas/militarymembers/pdf/MilPayTable2013_1.pdf)  Assuming you work 20 days per month (Ha!) that's $85/day.  Assuming an eight-hour workday (Oh stop, yer killin' us here!) that's $10.62/hour.  Yes, you have housing & food allowances, but those are calculated based on average expenses for that ZIP code so it's essentially a wash.  You still "need" a smartphone, an LCD TV, an Xbox, transportation, and a liquor stipend.  Oh, and recruit training was pretty rough so you have a lot of living to catch up on.  Plus your sergeant is making your life miserable so you deserve to cut loose a little.  It's highly likely that you've never had a credit card before, let alone a credit score, so that friendly car dealer outside the back gate ("We finance E-1 & up!!") may be your only source of capital.

The hourly wage is obviously junk for a military personnel, but you can't compare apples and oranges by not including the room and board allowance but throwing out the hourly rate. Almost seventy percent of my budget is home/grocery expenses, the allowance in my area of ~$1400/month is pretty close to my ~$1750/month (~1300/month if you take off principal) expenses, and that would be lower if you were in an apartment or smaller home. The additional $1700/month after that is $20K/year, hardly a small amount when most of this can be spent of non-necessities.

I'm not saying predatory lenders aren't straight up assholes, but there is something better to be done then banning them.

When I was in, you couldn't get the housing allowance unless you were an E-5 or married. Everyone else was expected to live in the single base housing (sharing a room with an assigned stranger) or on the ship. And almost no one considered that an option. Not that that makes it right, but almost everyone I knew was paying rent on their own without receiving the housing allowance.

davisgang90

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2013, 12:43:24 PM »
I had a standard list of topics for new checkins when I was the XO/CO (Executive/Commanding Officer).  The danger of the E-1 and up used car places and payday loan scams featured prominently.  I would also talk up the NMCRS (Navy and Marine Corps Relief Society) as a better alternative for a low/no interest loan/grant if folks found themselves in a bind.

NMCRS and similar organizations in other services are of great benefit to our troops. 

I would also talk up the TSP program, but most Sailors thought I was crazy talking to them about saving for retirement.

the fixer

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2013, 12:48:12 PM »

Nords

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2013, 06:24:01 PM »
An interesting story about payday loan reforms in Colorado. https://www.mint.com/blog/consumer-iq/is-colorado-paving-the-way-for-payday-loan-reform-1113/
Great data.  I wonder if this will catch the attention of other states.

Will

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2013, 06:37:35 PM »
An interesting story about payday loan reforms in Colorado. https://www.mint.com/blog/consumer-iq/is-colorado-paving-the-way-for-payday-loan-reform-1113/
Great data.  I wonder if this will catch the attention of other states.

Completely off-topic, but...

Hey Nords!  I was browsing through the financial books section of my library when I saw your book!  Pretty cool!

Nords

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2013, 06:51:06 PM »
Completely off-topic, but...
Hey Nords!  I was browsing through the financial books section of my library when I saw your book!  Pretty cool!
Excellent-- sighted in the wild, and in its natural habitat!

MrsPete

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2013, 09:17:19 PM »
However once you're in the payday lending trap, it's extremely difficult to break out of by promotions & pay raises alone.  Just like credit card debt, it requires a fundamental behavior change and perhaps months of fiscal austerity.
Whether you're talking about an E-2 in the military or a young civilian with a low-paying job, I totally agree with you.  Once you're "in the trap", it's difficult to escape -- partially because you know you have "an out", partially because you just don't have the money to make it happen. 

What I'm not clear on is whether the military person is really any worse off than his same-aged, similarly-educated civilian counterpart.  I kind of think they're neck-and-neck. 

Angelfishtitan

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Re: Payday lenders preying on military service members
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2013, 12:35:41 PM »
What I'm not clear on is whether the military person is really any worse off than his same-aged, similarly-educated civilian counterpart.  I kind of think they're neck-and-neck.

This is my biggest issue with this article and similar articles, like those about veteran unemployment. They are in a bad situation, but are generally in the same or possibly even better when compared to their non-service member/veteran peers. If you are going to fix something, fix it for everyone.

In the example of veteran unemployment, which was and continues to be a talking point in the news during the economic crisis, it is actually lower than the national average. For all veterans there is a 6.9% rate in Oct '13 versus 7.3% for the general population. Even if you only count recent veterans it is 10% versus 9.6% of people ages 20-29, with the latter bracket having a much higher percentage (24.9% versus 17.2% for recent veterans) not participating in the labor force. This is against the black workforce with a 12.7% UER across all age groups, almost double the national average! Unfortunately, advocating change for people who actually need it doesn't sell papers or sway voters.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!