Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 8901952 times)

AH013

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8350 on: May 21, 2015, 02:18:49 PM »
well that won't work too well anymore. Who actually gets physical paychecks anymore? Isn't it all direct deposit at this point?

My company won't do direct deposit because it costs extra money.  I don't really understand why it costs more money to have dd though, it doesn't make any sense.  Some how issuing physical checks to everyone, and having everyone physically cash those checks is all totally free, but dd would cost an extra fee for each person on the payroll.  It's madness.

Much like a convenience fee for ACH payments instead of sending a check, it is a profit center for many payroll processing companies, as it's free float.

Say payday is the first day of the week.  $250,000 of payroll for a generic company.  Checks are handed over at the end of the day on 6/1.  Payroll company pulls the month from the worker company on 5/29 to make sure the funds are available to pay the checks they issued.  Some people cash their paychecks same day, and it clears on 6/2.  Some of you are on vacation, out sick, etc. or just plain don't get around to doing it for a few days or even weeks.  Say on average checks clear on 6/4.

Payroll company just got to invest $250,000 for 6 days and keep the interest.  Invest it at around 1% APR and you just made $50.  Repeat 52 weeks a year, $2,600 in extra profit in that one example company.  ADP services over 600,000 companies.  You can do the math and see this is potentially millions of dollars of free money.  This is also why they love to mail checks -- if you can hold an average employee's $40k salary paid bi-weekly another 3 extra days as the USPS walks it to you every pay period and invest it at 1%, you just made an extra $85.  If you can mail out checks for less than $3.25 you're coming out ahead versus letting them hand them out at the office.

If you turn the money over to every employee same day via DD, you don't get this free float.

dsmexpat

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8351 on: May 21, 2015, 02:34:27 PM »
well that won't work too well anymore. Who actually gets physical paychecks anymore? Isn't it all direct deposit at this point?

My company won't do direct deposit because it costs extra money.  I don't really understand why it costs more money to have dd though, it doesn't make any sense.  Some how issuing physical checks to everyone, and having everyone physically cash those checks is all totally free, but dd would cost an extra fee for each person on the payroll.  It's madness.

Much like a convenience fee for ACH payments instead of sending a check, it is a profit center for many payroll processing companies, as it's free float.

Say payday is the first day of the week.  $250,000 of payroll for a generic company.  Checks are handed over at the end of the day on 6/1.  Payroll company pulls the month from the worker company on 5/29 to make sure the funds are available to pay the checks they issued.  Some people cash their paychecks same day, and it clears on 6/2.  Some of you are on vacation, out sick, etc. or just plain don't get around to doing it for a few days or even weeks.  Say on average checks clear on 6/4.

Payroll company just got to invest $250,000 for 6 days and keep the interest.  Invest it at around 1% APR and you just made $50.  Repeat 52 weeks a year, $2,600 in extra profit in that one example company.  ADP services over 600,000 companies.  You can do the math and see this is potentially millions of dollars of free money.  This is also why they love to mail checks -- if you can hold an average employee's $40k salary paid bi-weekly another 3 extra days as the USPS walks it to you every pay period and invest it at 1%, you just made an extra $85.  If you can mail out checks for less than $3.25 you're coming out ahead versus letting them hand them out at the office.

If you turn the money over to every employee same day via DD, you don't get this free float.
This is nonsense. That's around 150-200 employees so that many checks. You're making $50 on the interest earned by printing and delivering that many checks. That's more expensive than it's worth. You grouped all the employees together to get a higher number without realizing that the interest earned per employee per check was negligible. Less than the cost of delivery.

mnsaver

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8352 on: May 21, 2015, 02:46:42 PM »
well that won't work too well anymore. Who actually gets physical paychecks anymore? Isn't it all direct deposit at this point?

My company won't do direct deposit because it costs extra money.  I don't really understand why it costs more money to have dd though, it doesn't make any sense.  Some how issuing physical checks to everyone, and having everyone physically cash those checks is all totally free, but dd would cost an extra fee for each person on the payroll.  It's madness.

I used to work for a company like this too. On payday, the paymaster would walk around the office and personally hand each employee a live check. Then, everyone would take a break and walk to the bank.

There were about 200 employees. Each person spent about half an hour of paid company time. So I estimate 100 person/hours each pay cycle was dedicated to depositing checks. I'm not sure what the company would have spent on DD, but surely it couldn't have been as much as it was spending on live checks.

There would still need to be someone that gives each person a copy of their paystub. Even if they are on salary that pays them exactly the same amount, employees still need a copy (believe that this might be a requirement by law). If people are salary, there may be disputes about hours or vacation time or other things. We have half our employees with DD and they get copies of their paychecks.

Not doing DD means the company keeps its money in their accounts an extra few days. For DD money is transferred  into the accounts of the payroll company Mon/Tue/Wed to be transferred to the employees bank accounts Thurs or Friday. If employees receive a live check it doesn't clear until Monday or Tuesday.

AH013

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8353 on: May 21, 2015, 03:49:49 PM »
well that won't work too well anymore. Who actually gets physical paychecks anymore? Isn't it all direct deposit at this point?

My company won't do direct deposit because it costs extra money.  I don't really understand why it costs more money to have dd though, it doesn't make any sense.  Some how issuing physical checks to everyone, and having everyone physically cash those checks is all totally free, but dd would cost an extra fee for each person on the payroll.  It's madness.

Much like a convenience fee for ACH payments instead of sending a check, it is a profit center for many payroll processing companies, as it's free float.

Say payday is the first day of the week.  $250,000 of payroll for a generic company.  Checks are handed over at the end of the day on 6/1.  Payroll company pulls the month from the worker company on 5/29 to make sure the funds are available to pay the checks they issued.  Some people cash their paychecks same day, and it clears on 6/2.  Some of you are on vacation, out sick, etc. or just plain don't get around to doing it for a few days or even weeks.  Say on average checks clear on 6/4.

Payroll company just got to invest $250,000 for 6 days and keep the interest.  Invest it at around 1% APR and you just made $50.  Repeat 52 weeks a year, $2,600 in extra profit in that one example company.  ADP services over 600,000 companies.  You can do the math and see this is potentially millions of dollars of free money.  This is also why they love to mail checks -- if you can hold an average employee's $40k salary paid bi-weekly another 3 extra days as the USPS walks it to you every pay period and invest it at 1%, you just made an extra $85.  If you can mail out checks for less than $3.25 you're coming out ahead versus letting them hand them out at the office.

If you turn the money over to every employee same day via DD, you don't get this free float.
This is nonsense. That's around 150-200 employees so that many checks. You're making $50 on the interest earned by printing and delivering that many checks. That's more expensive than it's worth. You grouped all the employees together to get a higher number without realizing that the interest earned per employee per check was negligible. Less than the cost of delivery.

The consolidated charge for performing payroll, either by DD or check, is already factored into my first example.  In reality most employees aren't paid weekly -- usually bi-weekly or monthly.  Frequency doesn't impact the payroll company's interest revenue, it just reduces the cost (frequency) of paper checks.  Change my example to monthly -- a $1M payroll per month for 200 employees.  $164/month in interest.  Yeah, maybe it costs close to $0.80 per check, but there will be people who lose their checks and then you're earning a decent amount of additional float, plus a lost check charge you hit the employer with.  It's not like switching to DD is completely free to the payroll company either, and it isn't just purely a float benefit -- they know as recipients you're willing to pay for DD so why not charge for it?

Keep in mind we're in an incredibly low interest environment.  No sense in converting everyone to DD just because right now it doesn't make a big revenue difference. 

Insanity

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8354 on: May 22, 2015, 06:24:00 AM »
I finally have one!

It's open enrollment time for benefits at my company now.  Today we went to the benefits meeting (Supposedly there are 2 new benefits, but I can't figure out what they are.  Anyway...).  CW, who I consider somewhat of an airhead, actually surprised me.  She is expounding on the benefits of the flex plan (money is taken out of your paycheck pre-tax & can be used to spend on a variety of things: health care, commuter costs & more).

Boss joins the conversation: "I only want to spend on a card.  No submitting receipts."
CW: "They give you a card!"
Boss: "Oh, that's cool"
CW: "You do have to keep some receipts though.  For example, the dentist could possibly do cosmetic work like whitening, and that's not eligible."
Boss: "Oh, forget the whole thing."

WHT?  The boss wears glasses, that's a pretty well-known expense.  Saving the cost of taxes on that expense seems like a no-brainer.  Especially since it's no longer a use-it-or-lose-it proposition...you can roll over $500 at the end of the year, too!


Am I the only one who finds it odd that the government allows for tax deductions for medical expenses rather than ensuring the costs are kept down?  Wouldn't that be cheaper over the long run? 

zephyr911

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8355 on: May 22, 2015, 07:01:58 AM »
Am I the only one who finds it odd that the government allows for tax deductions for medical expenses rather than ensuring the costs are kept down?  Wouldn't that be cheaper over the long run?
An ounce of prevention vs a pound of cure? It's so crazy it just might work!

When you see tax policy for what it is - a set of policy decisions driven by (and often directly written by) industry lobbyists to maximize profits - these things generally make a lot more sense.

Making medical expenses tax-deductible has one designed purpose and one actual function: increasing the available funds for purchase of medical goods and services. Prevention would increase the bang for the individual's buck, but it doesn't have comparable lobbying resources.
For example, what kind of things would reduce the need for medical expenses?
The fitness industry - it may have a substantial marketing budget but it's a tiny fraction of what pharm companies shell out in D.C.
Broccoli farmers? Ha! Good luck.
And "not eating disgusting processed shit" isn't even an industry, so it'll never have lobbyists.

Insanity

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8356 on: May 22, 2015, 07:07:19 AM »
Am I the only one who finds it odd that the government allows for tax deductions for medical expenses rather than ensuring the costs are kept down?  Wouldn't that be cheaper over the long run?
An ounce of prevention vs a pound of cure? It's so crazy it just might work!

When you see tax policy for what it is - a set of policy decisions driven by (and often directly written by) industry lobbyists to maximize profits - these things generally make a lot more sense.

Making medical expenses tax-deductible has one designed purpose and one actual function: increasing the available funds for purchase of medical goods and services. Prevention would increase the bang for the individual's buck, but it doesn't have comparable lobbying resources.
For example, what kind of things would reduce the need for medical expenses?
The fitness industry - it may have a substantial marketing budget but it's a tiny fraction of what pharm companies shell out in D.C.
Broccoli farmers? Ha! Good luck.
And "not eating disgusting processed shit" isn't even an industry, so it'll never have lobbyists.

Yeah, I know. Follow the almighty dollar.  I'm too idealist.

grantmeaname

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8357 on: May 22, 2015, 08:09:09 AM »
Making medical expenses tax-deductible has one designed purpose and one actual function: increasing the available funds for purchase of medical goods and services
That doesn't make any sense. If that were the goal, why would it have the ridiculously high 10%/7.5% of AGI floor before expenses become deductible? The deduction functions as a risk sharing mechanism with the hope that it can prevent some of the medical bankruptcies that result from uninsured emergencies. I'll also note that the deduction dates from 1942 and the committee report read in part:
Quote
This allowance is recommended in consideration of the heavy tax burden that must be borne by individuals during the existing emergency and of the desirability of maintaining the present high level of public health and morale.

Set down the tinfoil hat and slowly walk away.

Elderwood17

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8358 on: May 22, 2015, 08:14:45 AM »
"And "not eating disgusting processed shit" isn't even an industry, so it'll never have lobbyists."

You cracked me up with that one!  Too true. 


Merrie

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8359 on: May 22, 2015, 09:51:48 AM »
well that won't work too well anymore. Who actually gets physical paychecks anymore? Isn't it all direct deposit at this point?

There are still some companies that don't do direct deposit, and I know a few people who refuse to sign up for direct deposit because they prefer getting a check. I've never known a company that forced direct deposit, it's always optional to my knowledge.

Physical checks aren't available at my company in my area. Not sure if they are in other areas of the country. Those that don't have bank accounts have to get them direct deposited to some kind of payroll card--I think there are a few different options. And we're a huge corporation. I am sure this saves a lot for the company, but the employees who don't have bank accounts probably have to pay some "convenience fees". Boo.

frugalnacho

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8360 on: May 22, 2015, 10:36:17 AM »

But you are missing out on saving the bacon grease for cooking other tasty delights (like has browns)!
Yummy! But, I too love to grill and haven't heard of the Teflon mats (I use a charcoal grill, no grease traps, just flare ups if you are not careful)

I cooked the hashbrowns and eggs in the bacon grease right after I cooked the bacon. Once it drips through the grill to the trap it's all nasty, rusty, black and unusable though. 

These are the grill mats I bought: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KDNEM8K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They were $6.99 when I purchased them a few weeks ago.

Tallgirl1204

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8361 on: May 22, 2015, 10:54:34 AM »
well that won't work too well anymore. Who actually gets physical paychecks anymore? Isn't it all direct deposit at this point?

There are still some companies that don't do direct deposit, and I know a few people who refuse to sign up for direct deposit because they prefer getting a check. I've never known a company that forced direct deposit, it's always optional to my knowledge.

I had a boyfriend who insisted on getting a check at work, and went to check-cashing places with it, because somehow someone he owed money to (I can't remember if it was the Fed, the mortgage company or what) had his bank information and was taking money out of those accounts whenever he deposited anything in them.  At least, that's how he explained it to me.  He owed a lot of money a lot of places, and spent everything that came in-- I liked him a lot, but there was no long-term potential-- I am not super-frugal but geez, I hate debt and could have not tolerated living in that kind of stress and fear. 

furrychickens

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8362 on: May 22, 2015, 11:11:33 AM »
I wouldn't put Teflon anywhere near the high heat of a grill (even if I used Teflon at all, which I don't).

frugalnacho

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8363 on: May 22, 2015, 11:39:25 AM »
I wouldn't put Teflon anywhere near the high heat of a grill (even if I used Teflon at all, which I don't).

Teflon is probably on all the pans you use.  If not then I think you are missing out. They also make bake ware out of teflon.  I wouldn't crank the grill on the highest setting and leave it closed, but even then I doubt it would get hot enough to damage it.  As long as you keep it under 500*F you should be fine. 

Apples

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8364 on: May 22, 2015, 11:47:35 AM »
well that won't work too well anymore. Who actually gets physical paychecks anymore? Isn't it all direct deposit at this point?

My company won't do direct deposit because it costs extra money.  I don't really understand why it costs more money to have dd though, it doesn't make any sense.  Some how issuing physical checks to everyone, and having everyone physically cash those checks is all totally free, but dd would cost an extra fee for each person on the payroll.  It's madness.

I just tried to set up direct deposit for our (25 employee, of which 10  might use DD) company.  Getting the add-on to our payroll was going to be a one time $400 fee.  In addition, our bank wanted to charge us $25/month to enable direct deposit capabilities, and in addition $0.25 per paycheck.  And if our employees use a different bank, there was a fee for that.  This is at our small, rural, local bank down the road.  And everyone goes and takes their checks to the bank either during lunch hour or after work, so company time isn't used.  So yes, using direct deposit would most definitely cost our company significantly more money than our current paper check system.
What? That is madness. So printing checks and putting them in envelopes, and mailing to any remote offices cost less than doing account transfers? How? Last I checked my bank charged zero to do a transfer..

If someone wanted to pay me with a piece of paper I have to cash every time I'd be pissed.

Well they don't have to mail any out, it's all distributed by hand in our only office.  But yea, it's madness.  I think it's just the banks trying to capitalize on a service you want and are willing to pay for despite making it easier and cheaper for them.  Kind of like ticketmaster charging me a convenience fee to purchase tickets through their automated system and print them out myself.   You have an unmanned, automated system that exists on the internet...it's the cheapest and most efficient form of ticket sales possible, you require no infrastructure and minimal employees, and yet you are charging me extra for using this service that is obviously superior to any other way you could distribute tickets.  AND you have the balls to charge me an additional fee to print it out myself, even though it saves you the hassle and expense of doing it?! It's totally bonkers.  Straight greed.

Edited to fix a quote fail.

frugalnacho

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8365 on: May 22, 2015, 11:57:43 AM »

TravelJunkyQC

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8366 on: May 22, 2015, 12:54:55 PM »
Sent out an e-mail to my coworkers who live in the same city sector as I do to carpool. Received numerous responses such as «my morning car ride is my time to wake up - I need to be alone», and «I need to be able to leave at whatever moment I want»...

Considering biking the 22 km (250 m incline uphill) to work (where we have no shower), and just stink the place up out of spite!

lostamonkey

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8367 on: May 22, 2015, 01:22:36 PM »
Sent out an e-mail to my coworkers who live in the same city sector as I do to carpool. Received numerous responses such as «my morning car ride is my time to wake up - I need to be alone», and «I need to be able to leave at whatever moment I want»...

Considering biking the 22 km (250 m incline uphill) to work (where we have no shower), and just stink the place up out of spite!

I know it's not Mustachian but I agree with your coworkers. I like leaving home at whatever time I want (within reason) and would hate to carpool. My work is relatively close to my home and I get free parking at work.

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8368 on: May 23, 2015, 08:20:10 AM »
I wouldn't put Teflon anywhere near the high heat of a grill (even if I used Teflon at all, which I don't).
Teflon is probably on all the pans you use. 
No, more likely PTFE Polytetrafluorethylen. Teflon is just a brand of this stuff ;)
And they dont like it if you call a pan "has teflon" if it has just PTFE from someone else. That can get expensive if you are a trader.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8369 on: May 23, 2015, 08:50:59 AM »
I wouldn't put Teflon anywhere near the high heat of a grill (even if I used Teflon at all, which I don't).
Teflon is probably on all the pans you use. 
No, more likely PTFE Polytetrafluorethylen. Teflon is just a brand of this stuff ;)
And they dont like it if you call a pan "has teflon" if it has just PTFE from someone else. That can get expensive if you are a trader.

It's:

"Made of PTFE (PFOA free) 100% Non-stick and Reusable"

I'm not against teflon, but for something like my grill this thing skeeves me out.  However, when my last teflon pan went bad I got some of those new ceramic nonstick pans as a slickdeal.  They seem to be holding up really well.

Apples

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8370 on: May 23, 2015, 09:04:09 AM »
Edited to fix a quote fail.



Hey frugalnacho, sorry about that.  I think I just made the quote fail even worse.  I just looked it over and attempted to fix it by going back to the original quote, but all the scrolling and quote brackets were giving me a headache.  So just know it was going to cost us more money to direct deposit.  Though we use a local bank, not a big one, which can certainly have something to do with it.

UKMustache

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8371 on: May 24, 2015, 02:21:15 AM »
I work with a girl that recently married into money (she was far from poor but now is very wealthy).
She crashed her car last week, a $70k German coupe. It was completely her fault though the damage was relatively minor (scuffed and dented door and wing).  There's only maybe $2k damage.

She is trying to convince her new husband to buy her a $160k range rover (trading in her car without getting it repaired) because she doesn't feel safe in her car any more.

sunshine

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8372 on: May 24, 2015, 01:30:33 PM »
well that won't work too well anymore. Who actually gets physical paychecks anymore? Isn't it all direct deposit at this point?

There are still some companies that don't do direct deposit, and I know a few people who refuse to sign up for direct deposit because they prefer getting a check. I've never known a company that forced direct deposit, it's always optional to my knowledge.

Physical checks aren't available at my company in my area. Not sure if they are in other areas of the country. Those that don't have bank accounts have to get them direct deposited to some kind of payroll card--I think there are a few different options. And we're a huge corporation. I am sure this saves a lot for the company, but the employees who don't have bank accounts probably have to pay some "convenience fees". Boo.


They are not available with my husband's employer either. It's direct deposit or payroll card. The only exception is per the union contract. If they short a check they must cut a live check within 24 hours or pay a penalty to the employee. It's a big world wide company.

 I get an actual hand written paycheck left at the employer's business. . There are only 13 employees.

Megma

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8373 on: May 24, 2015, 04:18:52 PM »
I wouldn't put Teflon anywhere near the high heat of a grill (even if I used Teflon at all, which I don't).
Teflon is probably on all the pans you use. 
No, more likely PTFE Polytetrafluorethylen. Teflon is just a brand of this stuff ;)
And they dont like it if you call a pan "has teflon" if it has just PTFE from someone else. That can get expensive if you are a trader.

It's:

"Made of PTFE (PFOA free) 100% Non-stick and Reusable"

I'm not against teflon, but for something like my grill this thing skeeves me out.  However, when my last teflon pan went bad I got some of those new ceramic nonstick pans as a slickdeal.  They seem to be holding up really well.

I've been using the ceramic pans ~2 years and at first they were great (no coating to scratch!) but now the suckers DO NOT come clean. I think mine are actually older than two years because bf bought them at a thrift store probably. If you have better luck, let me know the brand you're using because I loved them for a solid year before having this issue.

Could also be our dishwasher as we moved since then...

bloomability

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8374 on: May 24, 2015, 04:19:11 PM »
"4 out of 60 employees here contribute to their 401(k)."

Part of my job is to review payroll procedures to ensure my clients are automating the process as much as possible. I see a lot more garnishment deductions set up than retirement deductions. It makes me so sad because a lot of people in the industry are working past 70 because they "have to" keep working.

One guy even lamented about how his buddies have all retired and asked him when he's joining them. He seemed so defeated.

Latwell

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8375 on: May 24, 2015, 08:53:36 PM »
well that won't work too well anymore. Who actually gets physical paychecks anymore? Isn't it all direct deposit at this point?

There are still some companies that don't do direct deposit, and I know a few people who refuse to sign up for direct deposit because they prefer getting a check. I've never known a company that forced direct deposit, it's always optional to my knowledge.

New Jersey governmental entities are allowed to implement a direct deposit only policy for the employees. This has been extremely useful for reconciliation purposes and cutting out "lost checks". I audit these entities and a few of our clients have already implemented it. The only time someone receives a check is when they are unusual and infrequent circumstances.

Sometimes there is an individual who doesn't want their spouse to see their paychecks. In those cases, it is suggested the person obtain a personal non-joint bank account so they can hide whatever finances they like from the spouse.

One flaw of direct deposit is when people don't bother looking at the pay stub anymore. If the person receives the same exact net pay every pay, this isn't a big deal. But most people don't get the same pay every pay and they won't notice errors in their pay if they stop looking at the pay stub. However, those people not looking at their pay stubs when recieving direct deposit are probably the same people who didn't pay attention to their paper checks/stubs. (It amazes me when finding errors in people's pay. When pay checks are short, the people are quick to say something, but when they get too much they never make a sound.)

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8376 on: May 25, 2015, 08:24:31 PM »
Today we were notified - by a printed memo left on desks - that there will be changes to payroll, including the day we are paid, and that there will be a couple of odd transactions as we switch to the new cycle.

The memo was badly worded and left several questions unanswered, so I asked my boss if we could meet with the person who wrote the memo and who is in charge of the changeover.

He started assuring me "Oh, they're not taking any of your money, don't worry about it", so I started putting the questions to him.

1. Will this affect superannuation? (He doesn't know.)
2. A different department will be handling our payroll - does that mean leave applications and expenses will also go through that department? (He doesn't know.)
3. Is the new department aware of an existing agreement with staff about CPI increases to our salary? (He doesn't know.)

I find it awkward when I am the only person asking questions about payroll, because colleagues then assume I am broke. No, I just want to know of any payroll changes so I can plan accordingly!

At first I thought I couldn't really contribute to this thread because my colleagues aren't overly spendy. But then I took another look. I work with a guy in his 70s who falls asleep at his desk every afternoon, who is paid for a 38-hour week but drifts into the office between 11.30am and 1.30pm to start work. I work with an incredibly talented woman who started with us after being made redundant from her previous company, who doesn't really want to be here and whose talents would make her a mint as a freelancer and allow her to be at home with her children, but she wasn't prepared for that. I'm the youngest one here (28) and while I'm just starting on this road, I feel like the only one with an exit strategy.

frugalnacho

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8377 on: May 26, 2015, 07:46:06 AM »
I wouldn't put Teflon anywhere near the high heat of a grill (even if I used Teflon at all, which I don't).
Teflon is probably on all the pans you use. 
No, more likely PTFE Polytetrafluorethylen. Teflon is just a brand of this stuff ;)
And they dont like it if you call a pan "has teflon" if it has just PTFE from someone else. That can get expensive if you are a trader.

So what's the difference between brand name Teflon and generic PTFE? As far as i'm aware it's made of the same molecules and is indistinguishable.  I think "teflon" and "PTFE" are synonymous for all practical purposes.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8378 on: May 26, 2015, 09:15:22 AM »
I wouldn't put Teflon anywhere near the high heat of a grill (even if I used Teflon at all, which I don't).
Teflon is probably on all the pans you use. 
No, more likely PTFE Polytetrafluorethylen. Teflon is just a brand of this stuff ;)
And they dont like it if you call a pan "has teflon" if it has just PTFE from someone else. That can get expensive if you are a trader.

So what's the difference between brand name Teflon and generic PTFE? As far as i'm aware it's made of the same molecules and is indistinguishable.  I think "teflon" and "PTFE" are synonymous for all practical purposes.

Is it a trademark issue.  It the term is used generically the trademark holder can loose their right to the term, unless they can demonstrate that they have been trying to protect it.

Examples of lost or nearly lost trademarks in the US include Aspirin (lost), Kleenex (nearly lost), Styrofoam (nearly lost), and the Keep on Trucking Guy http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Keep-On-Truckin--the-70s-482814_713_348.jpg by R. Crumb (lost).

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8379 on: May 26, 2015, 09:19:57 AM »
Non-stick pans (of any stripe) aren't safe, according to growing scientific evidence on the larger chemical group (PFAS). Google "the Madrid Statement" or for an example: http://greensciencepolicy.org/madrid-statement/

Plus, I honestly hate cooking on them. I use cast iron skillets for much of my cooking, and used either enameled cast-iron or tri-ply stainless for things like acidic sauces that don't play nice with plain iron.

Seasoned cast iron that's taken care of (don't wash with soap, dry immediately, wipe with oil if necessary) properly is a vastly superior "non-stick" surface, cheaper, and lasts basically forever. It's like the ultimate Mustachian cookware.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8380 on: May 26, 2015, 01:52:48 PM »
Not overheard at work, but from a former neighbor, discussing large tax bills and sacrifices:
Neighbor: "It was a really tough year for us, but we really cut our spending, and paid off $10K worth of taxes and furniture loans in that year.  So glad we don't have to live like that anymore!"

They have two mortgages on their home, spent $20K on an extended patio, both buy new SUV's/pickup trucks every other year, still have furniture loans, the works!!!  Annual income is probably about $120K combined.  I get the feeling they think they are good w/their money b/c they put a few hundred/mo in savings.  I know they contribute the 3% required to get the match on the 401K, and no IRA's.
FURNITURE LOANS! Bahahahaha!!!
Wow. I'd rather use crates and piles of clothing as furniture than go into debt for "things that hold my butt".
I did try to finance a couch when I was an idiot 21-yo second lieutenant, and thankfully was denied for shitty credit. Later, I figured out how easy it is to find good used stuff. My current couch was $1200 new, and I bought it years later for $200 from a guy who had put it in a loft and barely used it.
I did let DW talk me into a new bedroom set after she moved in, but only because I had a friend working the store who got us a deep discount. New furniture depreciation is even worse than cars... you often lose 50% or more just hauling it out the door.

I knew you could finance furniture but I've never actually heard of anybody doing it. Most of ours comes from college dumpsters. You'd be surprised what kids throw away after Finals Week.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8381 on: May 26, 2015, 02:10:22 PM »
Not overheard at work, but from a former neighbor, discussing large tax bills and sacrifices:
Neighbor: "It was a really tough year for us, but we really cut our spending, and paid off $10K worth of taxes and furniture loans in that year.  So glad we don't have to live like that anymore!"

They have two mortgages on their home, spent $20K on an extended patio, both buy new SUV's/pickup trucks every other year, still have furniture loans, the works!!!  Annual income is probably about $120K combined.  I get the feeling they think they are good w/their money b/c they put a few hundred/mo in savings.  I know they contribute the 3% required to get the match on the 401K, and no IRA's.
FURNITURE LOANS! Bahahahaha!!!
Wow. I'd rather use crates and piles of clothing as furniture than go into debt for "things that hold my butt".
I did try to finance a couch when I was an idiot 21-yo second lieutenant, and thankfully was denied for shitty credit. Later, I figured out how easy it is to find good used stuff. My current couch was $1200 new, and I bought it years later for $200 from a guy who had put it in a loft and barely used it.
I did let DW talk me into a new bedroom set after she moved in, but only because I had a friend working the store who got us a deep discount. New furniture depreciation is even worse than cars... you often lose 50% or more just hauling it out the door.

I knew you could finance furniture but I've never actually heard of anybody doing it. Most of ours comes from college dumpsters. You'd be surprised what kids throw away after Finals Week.

Yeah, or find someone that's moving. A friend of mine's fiance is moving into her place in a week and posted pictures of his stuff saying, "Free to anyone that comes by to pick it up or else we will toss it to the curb." So I went and got a perfectly nice and comfy love seater that fits perfectly in my room.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8382 on: May 26, 2015, 02:31:26 PM »
Different kind of crazy: I had a co-worker who inherited a condo in NYC, plus a bunch of money.  I mean millions of dollars.  She worked this miserable job and always working extra OT.  One day I went to borrow a pen from her and what did i see in her drawer?  Probably $40,000 worth of uncashed paychecks.  She said she was "saving them for a rainy day".  Far as I know, she died saving for a rainy day.  Good frugality IQ, terrible quality of life filter.

Uhm, Is that allowed? I was under the impression that checks went bad after a specific time, ("stale" I think is the word our payroll uses). Additionally, I know alot of companies set up specific accounts to do paychecks out of. Won't there be a delay when she tries to cash those all at once since the bank will probably want to double-check with the issuer due to their size and age?

Kind of defeats the point of a rainy-day fund if she has to wait for the checks to clear, doesn't it?

This is actually the most common form of saving for blue collar workers.  Can't spend what isn't in your bank account (or more accurately what you haven't already cashed in at the check cashing store).  Stick a few paychecks under the mattress and then bust them out at Christmas to pay for your shipping / vacation.
Source: Corporate Treasury Management course in college

How does a Payroll department deal with it though? If a check goes bad in 180 days or whatever and you wait too long, will you be able to access the money? Will you be able to access it quickly (as is the point of a rainy day fund)? Or worst case scenario, what if you leave the company/the company folds?

It just seems incredibly dangerous.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8383 on: May 27, 2015, 10:02:49 AM »
Non-stick pans (of any stripe) aren't safe, according to growing scientific evidence on the larger chemical group (PFAS). Google "the Madrid Statement" or for an example: http://greensciencepolicy.org/madrid-statement/

Plus, I honestly hate cooking on them. I use cast iron skillets for much of my cooking, and used either enameled cast-iron or tri-ply stainless for things like acidic sauces that don't play nice with plain iron.

Seasoned cast iron that's taken care of (don't wash with soap, dry immediately, wipe with oil if necessary) properly is a vastly superior "non-stick" surface, cheaper, and lasts basically forever. It's like the ultimate Mustachian cookware.

Does that include so called "ceramic" nonstick?  They say PFOA or PTFE, but perhaps they still use some PF? 

Anyways, I don't believe that seasoned cast iron is safe.  If has a chemical coating as well, but you make it yourself out of a homemade varnish.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8384 on: May 27, 2015, 10:07:47 AM »
A co-worker has no money because she's terrible with money. Recently she bought a $300k house, and then took a loan from her 401k to pay for new shutters ($4500), a fence, and a blackspalsh.

frugalnacho

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8385 on: May 27, 2015, 11:59:47 AM »
I wouldn't put Teflon anywhere near the high heat of a grill (even if I used Teflon at all, which I don't).
Teflon is probably on all the pans you use. 
No, more likely PTFE Polytetrafluorethylen. Teflon is just a brand of this stuff ;)
And they dont like it if you call a pan "has teflon" if it has just PTFE from someone else. That can get expensive if you are a trader.

So what's the difference between brand name Teflon and generic PTFE? As far as i'm aware it's made of the same molecules and is indistinguishable.  I think "teflon" and "PTFE" are synonymous for all practical purposes.

Is it a trademark issue.  It the term is used generically the trademark holder can loose their right to the term, unless they can demonstrate that they have been trying to protect it.

Examples of lost or nearly lost trademarks in the US include Aspirin (lost), Kleenex (nearly lost), Styrofoam (nearly lost), and the Keep on Trucking Guy http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Keep-On-Truckin--the-70s-482814_713_348.jpg by R. Crumb (lost).

Yes it's a trademark issue (hence being a brand name), but it is chemically indistinguishable.  I use the term teflon because nearly everyone knows what it is, but most people aren't aware of the chemical structure.  It's much easy to just say "teflon" than it is to say "it's PTFE, chemically the exact same thing as teflon, but not actually name brand teflon" and have everyone know exactly what i'm talking about.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8386 on: May 27, 2015, 12:05:55 PM »
I know - way, way behind but I'll catch up eventually.

Early on in my current job I went on a few business trips and we were supposed to DOUBLE UP IN THE BEDS! Uh - no. Thanks though. Don't want to know my coworkers that well. I barely want to share a room with them. Sure enough several coworkers doubled up and made due several times until - perhaps - b/c I put my foot down and said no thanks.

Later I found out that the lead employee had messed up our travel budget and was trying to make up for the travel cost by simply not having enough rooms/beds for everyone.

The money is there for everyone to have their own room or at least bed if it is spent carefully. Maybe someone different should be managing the money?

Who knows what this fellow's personal finances are like - maybe there is a reason he's frequently trying to borrow stuff from coworkers like tools. Uh - you make more than we do by a fair amount - visit the "Made in China" tool store and buy your own. He's a very ego driven guy - his things are a very important part of his image.

Now when we do one of these trips I travel with a sleeping bag just in case or I question the bunking arrangements ahead of time. I don't mind taking to the floor is necessary or sleeping on the fold out bed. I'm no prude but no bed sharing - thanks.

Since then the lead employee has found himself travelling long distances by vehicle by himself b/c nobody wants to go on these trips with him. Associated problems include random tantrums about piddly stuff. And everything is supposed to be okay a short time later. Like it never happened.

I've heard someone suggest that he is is a micromanager who doesn't get to manage anything b/c we are all so well practiced at what we do (engineering) that we are one or two steps ahead of him at all times.

It is otherwise a great place to work. I just try to keep my assignments separate from this fellow's.

I would certainly assume that if my employer requests me to take a further drug test due to a false positive, I wouldn't see the bill. The drug test is solely for the employer's benefit. I've never heard of people having to pay for their own - this could be a "stingy employer - get out!" warning sign. (Similar to the employers that make you share rooms with other employees on business trips, the stingy employer that will go outside socially acceptable boundaries to save a buck is certainly not going to pay you what you are worth, as they are looking to keep every expense as low as possible.)

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8387 on: May 27, 2015, 12:44:11 PM »
I know - way, way behind but I'll catch up eventually.

Early on in my current job I went on a few business trips and we were supposed to DOUBLE UP IN THE BEDS! Uh - no. Thanks though. Don't want to know my coworkers that well. I barely want to share a room with them. Sure enough several coworkers doubled up and made due several times until - perhaps - b/c I put my foot down and said no thanks.

Later I found out that the lead employee had messed up our travel budget and was trying to make up for the travel cost by simply not having enough rooms/beds for everyone.

The money is there for everyone to have their own room or at least bed if it is spent carefully. Maybe someone different should be managing the money?

Who knows what this fellow's personal finances are like - maybe there is a reason he's frequently trying to borrow stuff from coworkers like tools. Uh - you make more than we do by a fair amount - visit the "Made in China" tool store and buy your own. He's a very ego driven guy - his things are a very important part of his image.

Now when we do one of these trips I travel with a sleeping bag just in case or I question the bunking arrangements ahead of time. I don't mind taking to the floor is necessary or sleeping on the fold out bed. I'm no prude but no bed sharing - thanks.

Since then the lead employee has found himself travelling long distances by vehicle by himself b/c nobody wants to go on these trips with him. Associated problems include random tantrums about piddly stuff. And everything is supposed to be okay a short time later. Like it never happened.

I've heard someone suggest that he is is a micromanager who doesn't get to manage anything b/c we are all so well practiced at what we do (engineering) that we are one or two steps ahead of him at all times.

It is otherwise a great place to work. I just try to keep my assignments separate from this fellow's.

I would certainly assume that if my employer requests me to take a further drug test due to a false positive, I wouldn't see the bill. The drug test is solely for the employer's benefit. I've never heard of people having to pay for their own - this could be a "stingy employer - get out!" warning sign. (Similar to the employers that make you share rooms with other employees on business trips, the stingy employer that will go outside socially acceptable boundaries to save a buck is certainly not going to pay you what you are worth, as they are looking to keep every expense as low as possible.)

Well... this was back in the day...  my (engineer) dad's job sent him to a very industrialized city to work on a project that had huge time pressure associated with it.  My dad was expected to "hot bunk" in a hotel room with a guy who was on the opposite shift from him.  i.e., sleeping in the SAME BED but at different times.  For six weeks.  This arrangement did not last long before the employees rebelled (at least, I recall it that way).  And when my dad got back from the trip, it was not long before he found a new job. 

This all said, we are working on hiring a contractor for work we are doing in a remote location.  The only sleeping accomodations are really rustic, and include twin beds in shared bedrooms.  It's that, or drive about three hours a day round trip to a hotel.  It will be interesting to see how the bids come in. 

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8388 on: May 27, 2015, 01:20:50 PM »
I know - way, way behind but I'll catch up eventually.

Early on in my current job I went on a few business trips and we were supposed to DOUBLE UP IN THE BEDS! Uh - no. Thanks though. Don't want to know my coworkers that well. I barely want to share a room with them. Sure enough several coworkers doubled up and made due several times until - perhaps - b/c I put my foot down and said no thanks.

Later I found out that the lead employee had messed up our travel budget and was trying to make up for the travel cost by simply not having enough rooms/beds for everyone.

The money is there for everyone to have their own room or at least bed if it is spent carefully. Maybe someone different should be managing the money?

Who knows what this fellow's personal finances are like - maybe there is a reason he's frequently trying to borrow stuff from coworkers like tools. Uh - you make more than we do by a fair amount - visit the "Made in China" tool store and buy your own. He's a very ego driven guy - his things are a very important part of his image.

Now when we do one of these trips I travel with a sleeping bag just in case or I question the bunking arrangements ahead of time. I don't mind taking to the floor is necessary or sleeping on the fold out bed. I'm no prude but no bed sharing - thanks.

Since then the lead employee has found himself travelling long distances by vehicle by himself b/c nobody wants to go on these trips with him. Associated problems include random tantrums about piddly stuff. And everything is supposed to be okay a short time later. Like it never happened.

I've heard someone suggest that he is is a micromanager who doesn't get to manage anything b/c we are all so well practiced at what we do (engineering) that we are one or two steps ahead of him at all times.

It is otherwise a great place to work. I just try to keep my assignments separate from this fellow's.

I would certainly assume that if my employer requests me to take a further drug test due to a false positive, I wouldn't see the bill. The drug test is solely for the employer's benefit. I've never heard of people having to pay for their own - this could be a "stingy employer - get out!" warning sign. (Similar to the employers that make you share rooms with other employees on business trips, the stingy employer that will go outside socially acceptable boundaries to save a buck is certainly not going to pay you what you are worth, as they are looking to keep every expense as low as possible.)
This seems crazy for engineering!  I mean, I went to a conference once, and a coworker decided to go last minute.  So I agreed to share my room, and she called ahead and got my single changed to a double (2 beds).  That was fine, except she slept like the dead and her alarm on her phone didn't wake her up.

When my husband was in grad school, it was common to send a few grad students to a conference and make them share a room because grad school budgets aren't huge.  Not a big deal really.  But the other prof in my spouse's lab had one woman in his lab, and he wanted to have her share a room with two guys.

Now, me personally?  I wouldn't care.  Bunch of 20-somethings, and hey, I was in the Navy.  So if it had been my husband (it wasn't), I would have figured it was fine - they change clothes in the bathroom right?  One of the other wives FREAKED OUT.  Couldn't believe I didn't care.  I mean, the grad student is a friend of mine!  I trust her!  (and my husband).  Maybe it didn't help that she was 6' tall, blond, and from Yugoslavia. 

gimp

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8389 on: May 27, 2015, 01:45:10 PM »
Oh, are we talking about cast iron master race things? Because we are now.

Regardless of the safety of your various non-stick pans, they just plain suck. Fuck em!

Cast iron, stainless steel carbon steel, that's where it's at. Ceramic is fine too; some pans are cast iron - ceramic. I don't use them because they stain. I only use cast iron and stainless steel.

Let's see. Cheap as fuck to buy cast iron. $20 gets you a lodge pan, and lodge is good old american quality. No, it's not wagner or griswold, the surface isn't machined, but apart from that, no complaints. Each $20 pan or $30 pot lives pretty much forever; it may well outlive you and me. Very little care required. Can be used on any cooking surface under the sun, and maybe on the sun's surface too, if the radiation don't kill ya. (Okay, no, 6000K will probably melt cast iron, and the 2000000K of the corona through which you have to pass first definitely will.) Makes food taste great. Oh, and if you're anemic, it solves that by putting iron in your food. Buy it for life and spend nearly nothing on it? Yes, please.

Stainless steel is good too. Especially if it has aluminum or copper inside for heat distribution. Pricey, though!

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8390 on: May 27, 2015, 02:02:42 PM »

But you are missing out on saving the bacon grease for cooking other tasty delights (like has browns)!
Yummy! But, I too love to grill and haven't heard of the Teflon mats (I use a charcoal grill, no grease traps, just flare ups if you are not careful)

I cooked the hashbrowns and eggs in the bacon grease right after I cooked the bacon. Once it drips through the grill to the trap it's all nasty, rusty, black and unusable though. 

These are the grill mats I bought: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KDNEM8K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They were $6.99 when I purchased them a few weeks ago.

How do you grill an egg?

frugalnacho

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8391 on: May 27, 2015, 02:07:51 PM »

But you are missing out on saving the bacon grease for cooking other tasty delights (like has browns)!
Yummy! But, I too love to grill and haven't heard of the Teflon mats (I use a charcoal grill, no grease traps, just flare ups if you are not careful)

I cooked the hashbrowns and eggs in the bacon grease right after I cooked the bacon. Once it drips through the grill to the trap it's all nasty, rusty, black and unusable though. 

These are the grill mats I bought: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KDNEM8K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They were $6.99 when I purchased them a few weeks ago.

How do you grill an egg?

On a teflon mat.  The mat covers the grill grating giving you a flat surface to grill on.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8392 on: May 27, 2015, 02:25:15 PM »
When my husband was in grad school, it was common to send a few grad students to a conference and make them share a room because grad school budgets aren't huge.  Not a big deal really.  But the other prof in my spouse's lab had one woman in his lab, and he wanted to have her share a room with two guys.

Now, me personally?  I wouldn't care.  Bunch of 20-somethings, and hey, I was in the Navy.  So if it had been my husband (it wasn't), I would have figured it was fine - they change clothes in the bathroom right?  One of the other wives FREAKED OUT.  Couldn't believe I didn't care.  I mean, the grad student is a friend of mine!  I trust her!  (and my husband).  Maybe it didn't help that she was 6' tall, blond, and from Yugoslavia.

I'm surprised the school would allow this. Requiring a woman room with 2 men can open them to a lot of liability.

(I'm like you though- I trust my husband. Most of his friends in grad school were very attractive women.  He always had to share rooms with other men though.)

My company has never suggested room sharing. I think that is way different than students- usually students suggested it because their grants were so small.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8393 on: May 27, 2015, 03:19:23 PM »
I'm trying to piece together the puzzle of a client's books and prior year tax return and I get this in response:

"I needed to show a lot of income on the tax return so that we could qualify for a bigger house."

I'm dying here... W... T... F.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8394 on: May 27, 2015, 03:23:05 PM »
Non-stick pans (of any stripe) aren't safe, according to growing scientific evidence on the larger chemical group (PFAS). Google "the Madrid Statement" or for an example: http://greensciencepolicy.org/madrid-statement/

Plus, I honestly hate cooking on them. I use cast iron skillets for much of my cooking, and used either enameled cast-iron or tri-ply stainless for things like acidic sauces that don't play nice with plain iron.

Seasoned cast iron that's taken care of (don't wash with soap, dry immediately, wipe with oil if necessary) properly is a vastly superior "non-stick" surface, cheaper, and lasts basically forever. It's like the ultimate Mustachian cookware.

Does that include so called "ceramic" nonstick?  They say PFOA or PTFE, but perhaps they still use some PF? 

Anyways, I don't believe that seasoned cast iron is safe.  If has a chemical coating as well, but you make it yourself out of a homemade varnish.

I grew up in the town where Teflon was made and now have to have medical monitoring for the rest of my life for a range of conditions due to the water pollution they caused. So I will stick to my cast iron and stainless steel. The only "chemical varnish" is one made of cooking oil and heat. Seems less likely to cause cancer.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8395 on: May 27, 2015, 04:29:10 PM »
I'm trying to piece together the puzzle of a client's books and prior year tax return and I get this in response:

"I needed to show a lot of income on the tax return so that we could qualify for a bigger house."

I'm dying here... W... T... F.

Oh my god...

What do you consider your professional responsibility here?  Do you tell them...? Or do you just back slowly away?

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8396 on: May 27, 2015, 04:46:48 PM »
Oh my god...

What do you consider your professional responsibility here?  Do you tell them...? Or do you just back slowly away?

If it's a tax return that I'm preparing, I don't truck with that. I tell them I can't sign a tax return I know is incorrect. If I prepared it and it's already submitted and I find out they misled me, then I'll tell them to amend and frankly would probably dump them as a client. I don't usually assume my clients know what they're doing, so I can usually detect garbage bookkeeping prior to filing - unless they were deliberately obfuscating.

In this case, where I didn't prepare it and am arriving on the scene after the fact - my professional responsibility is to inform them that they should amend their return. But that's it. I'm actually not allowed to do much more than that.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8397 on: May 27, 2015, 07:09:00 PM »
Regardless of the safety of your various non-stick pans, they just plain suck. Fuck em!
Boosting cast iron, slamming non-stick AND gratuitous swearing? I think you're my spirit sibling.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8398 on: May 27, 2015, 08:03:15 PM »
Colleague always complaining about cost of living for a family of 4, got a $1000 gift card from the boss (basically for doing awesome ass licking job but let's not go there).
Would he use the gift card on something to help said cost of living ?
.... Bought a $1299 drone (http://store.apple.com/au/product/HH6N2X/A/parrot-bebop-drone-with-skycontroller?afid=p238%7CyX4ztpSR-dc_mtid_18707vxu38484_pcrid_57987149086_&cid=aos-au-kwg-pla-btb )for his 6 years old daughter ...

SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #8399 on: May 27, 2015, 08:40:29 PM »
(It amazes me when finding errors in people's pay. When pay checks are short, the people are quick to say something, but when they get too much they never make a sound.)

Just for the record, I received a paycheck that was 10 times the correct amount when my employer switched to a new payroll system some years ago.

And I went straight to accounting to get it sorted out.

I still have a photo-copy of that check somewhere.   I figured I would never see another $36,000 paycheck for half a month's work again in my lifetime.