Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 5064668 times)

boarder42

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7050 on: February 25, 2015, 07:18:31 AM »
i left room for 5%... proving depression is not a choice may be hard.  Cancer is preventable by diet.  Just check out the thread of the guy on here who was told his brain cancer was inoperable.  He has decreased the size solely by changing his diet ... there is a lot of research that has gone into the studies behind diet and cancer... and whether you want to believe them or not there are many cases out there like his that prove the way you eat can cause and/or reverse the effects of cancer. 

but thats my point.. prove whats a choice and what isnt.  where are you drawing the line and what gives you the right to draw it there.
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mtn

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7051 on: February 25, 2015, 08:10:52 AM »

 proving depression is not a choice may be hard. 



No, it isn't. It is a chemical imbalance in the brain. Sometimes caused by a traumatic event, sometimes just there. Go ask a rape victim suffering from PTSD about depression being a choice.

GuitarStv

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7052 on: February 25, 2015, 08:17:56 AM »

 proving depression is not a choice may be hard. 



No, it isn't. It is a chemical imbalance in the brain. Sometimes caused by a traumatic event, sometimes just there. Go ask a rape victim suffering from PTSD about depression being a choice.

To play devil's advocate for a second here . . .

Literally every decision you make in life is due to brain chemistry.  It could be quite effectively argued that pedophiles like little children because of brain chemistry and murderers kill because of brain chemistry.  There are chemical peculiarities in the brains of both.  Our legal system is based on the preconception of free will, but from a biological standpoint there's little evidence that free will actually exists.

johnny847

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7053 on: February 25, 2015, 08:20:16 AM »
If employers are allowed to start policing employees health, then this is going to get out of hand really fast. What are employers going to do, mandate fat people exercise?

You say that as if it's a bad thing.  Yes, some people do have genuine issues, such as I know three women who are on synthetic thyroid medicine and one of the side effects is indeed weight gain.  However for the bulk of people who are overweight, it's simply by some measure of diet and exercise being out of balance.  It's honestly in the best interest of the employee that they be healthy anyway, plus in the best interests of society, since really all of us pay the cost of people getting sick with obesity related illnesses in one way or another.
Oh don't get me wrong - I am in no way saying that its not in the best interest of the employees and society as a whole.
But I don't think it's right to give employers the ability to punish their employees for not engaging in activities that have nothing to do with their work. It is a free country, after all.

You're mixing up freedoms and privileges. Nobody has a "right" to a job, a job is a privilege provided by another voluntarily.
And yet, we've come to agree through legislation that religion should be one of the protected discrimination classes. Religion is a choice. Replace "activities that have nothing to do with their work" with "activities of their religion" and see how that flies.

KCM5

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7054 on: February 25, 2015, 08:22:23 AM »
Cancer is preventable by diet. 

Please, provide me with a diet that will, with measurable certainty, prevent me from getting cancer.

Also, I'm going to need to move to somewhere with no air quality concerns, including combustion from cars, indoor cooking fires, VOCs and HAPs from paints, particulate matter even from wind blown dust, etc. You're probably going to need to move, too. Get on that.

Posthumane

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7055 on: February 25, 2015, 08:24:32 AM »
Perhaps this conversation should be moved to a new topic called "should employers be allowed to police employees' health" or something like that. Mods?

Anyway, johnny847, you mentioned that a bachelor's degree is an over-qualification for a clerical position where reading a writing are probably bona fide operational requirements. I would posit that a minimum level of health and fitness (i.e. being able to move, show up to work, etc.) are also bona fide operational requirements for almost every job. Any additional level of fitness is therefore also an over-qualification. Even within the military there are many positions which are basically desk jobs and don't actually require a fit person to do the job, but the fitness standards are equal across the board. Basically, not having a certain level of health and fitness can negatively impact your ability to do your job just like having poor reading/writing skills, so I don't see why it can't be something that an employer can use as a selection criteria, and also promote (or even mandate) within the workplace.

johnny847

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7056 on: February 25, 2015, 08:32:49 AM »
Perhaps this conversation should be moved to a new topic called "should employers be allowed to police employees' health" or something like that. Mods?
I agree - there was actually one on topic post that got buried somewhere here....here it is!

A fellow co worker of mine who is a single parent at the age of 21 with a deadbeat father is taking trip to Peru this summer.  Never mind the fact that she  has a car loan, 10k+ cc debt, and a  3 month child to take care of.  Lets solve all these issues by taking a trip to Peru on credit!!!! To make it even sweeter most of my co-workers knowing her financial status as well are encouraging her to take the trip and think it is a splendid idea. 


Posthumane, then I'll posit this question:
Ok. Suppose you smoke, and I'm a hiring manager. It's ok not for me to hire you solely because you smoke? (Also suppose in this situation that being healthy has nothing to do with the company brand or image - ie, this company is not, say, Whole Foods.)
Or suppose you're an employee in my company and I had no reservations about hiring you as an employee despite the fact that you smoke. But I pass over you for a promotion solely because you smoke.
Does that seem fair? I'm not asking whether it's legal, or whether it happens. I'm just asking strictly from an ethical standpoint, does that seem fair to you?
(And of course, it doesn't have to be smoking - imagine replacing smoking with any health related condition or issue)

If it does, then I doubt we'll ever change each others minds.

boarder42

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7057 on: February 25, 2015, 08:48:06 AM »
Cancer is preventable by diet. 

Please, provide me with a diet that will, with measurable certainty, prevent me from getting cancer.

Also, I'm going to need to move to somewhere with no air quality concerns, including combustion from cars, indoor cooking fires, VOCs and HAPs from paints, particulate matter even from wind blown dust, etc. You're probably going to need to move, too. Get on that.

Yeah and you CHOOSE to live around all that stuff.  I'm just saying not covering Choices is a complete can of worms that you dont want to dig into ... b/c either 95% of what happens to you in life (or greater) is a choice... OR like the brain chemistry comment there is no free will and we should all be covered forever for everything.

Go watch forks over knives or read the brain cancer post here.  His tumor is down by half after doctors told him they had no cure.  Whole foods plant based diets etc. ... so keep eating your processed foods etc. and you're choosing to increase your risk for cancer. 

Disclaimer: I don't follow this diet... i do however eat very little processed foods.  I would also note that if contracting cancer i would opt for diet change over Chemo. 
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thd7t

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7058 on: February 25, 2015, 09:09:11 AM »
Cancer is preventable by diet. 

Please, provide me with a diet that will, with measurable certainty, prevent me from getting cancer.

Also, I'm going to need to move to somewhere with no air quality concerns, including combustion from cars, indoor cooking fires, VOCs and HAPs from paints, particulate matter even from wind blown dust, etc. You're probably going to need to move, too. Get on that.

Yeah and you CHOOSE to live around all that stuff.  I'm just saying not covering Choices is a complete can of worms that you dont want to dig into ... b/c either 95% of what happens to you in life (or greater) is a choice... OR like the brain chemistry comment there is no free will and we should all be covered forever for everything.

Go watch forks over knives or read the brain cancer post here.  His tumor is down by half after doctors told him they had no cure.  Whole foods plant based diets etc. ... so keep eating your processed foods etc. and you're choosing to increase your risk for cancer. 

Disclaimer: I don't follow this diet... i do however eat very little processed foods.  I would also note that if contracting cancer i would opt for diet change over Chemo.
Following a careful diet may help in cases of cancer, but in the case of some cancers, it can lead to people missing treatments that are effective.  This killed Steve Jobs.

johnny847

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7059 on: February 25, 2015, 09:14:25 AM »
Cancer is preventable by diet. 

Please, provide me with a diet that will, with measurable certainty, prevent me from getting cancer.

Also, I'm going to need to move to somewhere with no air quality concerns, including combustion from cars, indoor cooking fires, VOCs and HAPs from paints, particulate matter even from wind blown dust, etc. You're probably going to need to move, too. Get on that.


Yeah and you CHOOSE to live around all that stuff.  I'm just saying not covering Choices is a complete can of worms that you dont want to dig into ... b/c either 95% of what happens to you in life (or greater) is a choice... OR like the brain chemistry comment there is no free will and we should all be covered forever for everything.

Go watch forks over knives or read the brain cancer post here.  His tumor is down by half after doctors told him they had no cure.  Whole foods plant based diets etc. ... so keep eating your processed foods etc. and you're choosing to increase your risk for cancer. 

Disclaimer: I don't follow this diet... i do however eat very little processed foods.  I would also note that if contracting cancer i would opt for diet change over Chemo.
But realize the fallacy of what you're saying boarder42. Suppose you and a significant number of people want to find a place that has zero air quality concerns to satisfy your silly constraint that this is all a choice. Then just by the fact that a significant number of people move into that same place that has zero air quality concerns, all the other people around you are going to pollute the quality of the air in one form or another.
It's not a choice to live in a place with less than perfect air quality. Our planet is simply too populated for everybody to live in a place with zero air quality concerns.

Please stop citing the one brain cancer thread here. I'm glad that person's tumor is subsiding, I really am. But  it's one data point. In science, that means nothing. It can raise the question of "this is something that we should investigate further." But it proves nothing.

I don't think saying go watch forks over knives is constructive in this discussion. I doubt anybody wants to watch a full documentary just to answer some questions on this thread. What would be constructive is to cite the studies that you've referred to. That at least we can at least read through the relevant parts.

Wings5

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7060 on: February 25, 2015, 09:19:48 AM »
The keg has been floated. It's pure foam.

I work in aviation, and many of the pilots I work with want to go fly for a major (Delta, FedEx, United, etc.). The regional airlines start out at very low pay but senior captains can clear $100,000. The same goes for military pilots after a few years in; between base pay, BAH, etc. So while a jump to a major airline is the goal for many it also means a reduction in pay and an increase in time away from home (new pilots start at the bottom of the seniority list). After a few years the pay is back to what they were making in the previous job. That is not hard if you live below your means.

One colleague of mine had a brilliant idea. He and his SO had three new vehicles between the two of them. One had been paid off but was re-leveraged for some reason. Random gadetry, $2,000 grill, that type. To make the jump and deal with the pay cut from a senior regional captain to the most junior guy at a major airline he proposed getting a personal loan for $200,000. He would use that for both living expenses and to service his current debt, basically taking lower interest debt and upping the interest.

I never heard if he applied for a loan, but I would love to have been a fly on the wall in that banker's office if the time came.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 09:33:42 AM by Wings5 »

KCM5

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7061 on: February 25, 2015, 09:21:27 AM »
Cancer is preventable by diet. 

Please, provide me with a diet that will, with measurable certainty, prevent me from getting cancer.

Also, I'm going to need to move to somewhere with no air quality concerns, including combustion from cars, indoor cooking fires, VOCs and HAPs from paints, particulate matter even from wind blown dust, etc. You're probably going to need to move, too. Get on that.

Yeah and you CHOOSE to live around all that stuff. I'm just saying not covering Choices is a complete can of worms that you dont want to dig into ... b/c either 95% of what happens to you in life (or greater) is a choice... OR like the brain chemistry comment there is no free will and we should all be covered forever for everything.

Go watch forks over knives or read the brain cancer post here.  His tumor is down by half after doctors told him they had no cure.  Whole foods plant based diets etc. ... so keep eating your processed foods etc. and you're choosing to increase your risk for cancer. 

Disclaimer: I don't follow this diet... i do however eat very little processed foods.  I would also note that if contracting cancer i would opt for diet change over Chemo.

I totally agree with you on this. I just think that people with the time and energy to consider subtle things that may or may not have an impact on your future health (living near a freeway, eating a donut) overestimate the ability of the average person to mitigate risk. And overestimate their own ability to mitigate risk. We like to think that we have power over things, but the reality is that we don't have enough information to really know about a lot of the things your discussing (ie cancer risk and diet). We're not rats in a lab. We're people living in very diverse environments with very diverse experiences. I mean, I'm doing my best but I'm also under no illusion that that will actually make a difference.

sky_northern

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7062 on: February 25, 2015, 10:21:30 AM »
Can someone point me to a legal basis for not being able to police an employee's health? I'm curious if such laws exist, though I imagine it's one of those things that varies from place to place. I'm not sure what the laws are in Canada. I do know that one of my employers does very closely police my health (military) and I consider it a good thing. This includes periodic medical checks at their expense, as well as allocated exercise periods during work days.
I can't point you to legal basis but I know that we have discussed at work that we can't make anyone get the highly recommended vaccinations for our jobs.

Employers have vast control over what happens on their property.  Theoretically they could ban certain foods or drinks for being brought on to the property.  If there's an impact on the working ability of the employee they have even more control.  Try showing up to operate heavy machinery with a buzz from the night before.  You can't exceed certain BMI thresholds for many jobs. 

Also, obesity leads to many complications and an increased number of sick days used.  I can see an employer wanting to limit that when possible.  If that means forcing employees to be healthier and firing them if they don't comply I don't see the problem.  Obviously true medical conditions would require some sort of exception to be granted.
See, I have a problem with the generalization that obesity leads to increased number of sick days. Lets just say that if my job had a BMI threshold I would never have gotten the job. But I am healthy, in that the last time I was at a doctor (was 2 yrs ago, though because I don't go to the doctor often) he ordered a full blood work up and couldn't find anything wrong with me. (Blood pressure good, cholesterol levels good, etc.) I exercise and eat my veggies, I just happen to also like chocolate and full fat yogurt and losing weight is extremely difficult for me.  I take a couple sick days a year, way less than the two days a month we are allowed. I did have the stomach flu this year so it was legitimate but other years I have taken more 'mental health' days when I just wanted to sleep in and read a good book because I hadn't been sick at all that year I didn't feel that guilty.

johnny847

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7063 on: February 25, 2015, 11:00:37 AM »
I never heard if he applied for a loan, but I would love to have been a fly on the wall in that banker's office if the time came.
Me too

going2ER

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7064 on: February 25, 2015, 11:02:33 AM »
Back on track to what I actually overheard at work.

Coworker is renewing her mortgage, normally in Canada it needs to be renewed about every 5 years until it is paid off, but you can get terms longer or shorter. So coworker tells me that they are doing theirs next week and rolling all of their debt, a substantial amount of credit card debt, line of credit, etc. into their mortgage. Then she tells me that they do this every time their mortgage comes up for renewal. Plus this time they are only getting a 3 year term since they find it hard to wait the 5 years to be able to get all their debt paid off.

radicaledward

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7065 on: February 25, 2015, 11:22:12 AM »
Literally every decision you make in life is due to brain chemistry.  It could be quite effectively argued that pedophiles like little children because of brain chemistry and murderers kill because of brain chemistry.  There are chemical peculiarities in the brains of both.  Our legal system is based on the preconception of free will, but from a biological standpoint there's little evidence that free will actually exists.
Well, it depends, to avoid getting to a long drawn out discussion of philosophy among the foam, we really don't know enough about how the brain works to be able to say if we have free will or not. It seems that more often than not the question comes down to if someone is a dualist or a monist.

Posthumane

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7066 on: February 25, 2015, 12:03:11 PM »
Posthumane, then I'll posit this question:
Ok. Suppose you smoke, and I'm a hiring manager. It's ok not for me to hire you solely because you smoke? (Also suppose in this situation that being healthy has nothing to do with the company brand or image - ie, this company is not, say, Whole Foods.)
Or suppose you're an employee in my company and I had no reservations about hiring you as an employee despite the fact that you smoke. But I pass over you for a promotion solely because you smoke.
Does that seem fair? I'm not asking whether it's legal, or whether it happens. I'm just asking strictly from an ethical standpoint, does that seem fair to you?
(And of course, it doesn't have to be smoking - imagine replacing smoking with any health related condition or issue)

If it does, then I doubt we'll ever change each others minds.
While I think it depends a lot on the individual situation, I would say that in some cases yes it is fair. There are a number of factors related in selecting a candidate for a job, and not all of them have to do with the performance of the job itself. For small organization especially, personality fit can have a much more pronounced effect on the performance of the unit than the performance of the individual. So, for example, if you're hiring someone to do basic clerical work such as filing and taking dictation (because my hypothetical takes place in the 30's for some reason) then you may end up choosing someone whose personality fits in with the environment but may be second best at their job over someone who excels at the task but you can't get along with. Smoking (or other health/fitness related issues) go along with this. If I'm hiring someone to work closely with me on developing business plans for a start up, their outlook on things like smoking and fitness would have an impact on weather I hired them or not as they are somewhat indicative of how we would get along. In many ways an employment contract is similar to a relationship.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 12:04:56 PM by Posthumane »

vivophoenix

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7067 on: February 25, 2015, 12:05:11 PM »
i left room for 5%... proving depression is not a choice may be hard.  Cancer is preventable by diet.  Just check out the thread of the guy on here who was told his brain cancer was inoperable.  He has decreased the size solely by changing his diet ... there is a lot of research that has gone into the studies behind diet and cancer... and whether you want to believe them or not there are many cases out there like his that prove the way you eat can cause and/or reverse the effects of cancer. 

but thats my point.. prove whats a choice and what isnt.  where are you drawing the line and what gives you the right to draw it there.



um are we seriously debating this guy?

he thinks a change in  diet cures brain cancer

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7068 on: February 25, 2015, 12:20:25 PM »
i left room for 5%... proving depression is not a choice may be hard.  Cancer is preventable by diet.  Just check out the thread of the guy on here who was told his brain cancer was inoperable.  He has decreased the size solely by changing his diet ... there is a lot of research that has gone into the studies behind diet and cancer... and whether you want to believe them or not there are many cases out there like his that prove the way you eat can cause and/or reverse the effects of cancer. 

but thats my point.. prove whats a choice and what isnt.  where are you drawing the line and what gives you the right to draw it there.



um are we seriously debating this guy?

he thinks a change in  diet cures brain cancer

Not really, that's just his extreme example.  He's saying diet effects the likelihood of getting cancer, which there are studies to support this.  So his point is when do you stop providing medical support for cancer patients, if their choice of diet could have caused it?

boarder42

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7069 on: February 25, 2015, 12:24:09 PM »
i left room for 5%... proving depression is not a choice may be hard.  Cancer is preventable by diet.  Just check out the thread of the guy on here who was told his brain cancer was inoperable.  He has decreased the size solely by changing his diet ... there is a lot of research that has gone into the studies behind diet and cancer... and whether you want to believe them or not there are many cases out there like his that prove the way you eat can cause and/or reverse the effects of cancer. 

but thats my point.. prove whats a choice and what isnt.  where are you drawing the line and what gives you the right to draw it there.



um are we seriously debating this guy?

he thinks a change in  diet cures brain cancer

Here is the post by someone who has decreased his tumor size.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/reader-case-study-twins-on-the-way-i-have-brain-cancer-want-to-buy-a-house/

Your comment that changing a diet cant possibly cure or improve chances of cancer survival is akin to the 250k a year lawyer who thinks he can never retire b/c of his spending rate that we laugh at on here constantly. 

Yes the math is black and white.  But to flat out go against real results??? how do you think chemo was developed?  it was developed thru research and testing on people... But guess what there isnt very much money in telling someone to eat a whole foods diet or alter their diet etc.  There is money in prescription drugs and doctors visits.  Whether you want to call it hokey or not i'd eat a whole food diet before i'd put poison in my body. 

There is alot more information out there than just this one guys story.  He read a book by a doctor who has many success stories.  will it work for everyone maybe not but neither does western medicine.

and in this fellow MMMers story western medicine had no solution where diet did. 
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dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7070 on: February 25, 2015, 12:28:00 PM »
Posthumane, then I'll posit this question:
Ok. Suppose you smoke, and I'm a hiring manager. It's ok not for me to hire you solely because you smoke? (Also suppose in this situation that being healthy has nothing to do with the company brand or image - ie, this company is not, say, Whole Foods.)
Or suppose you're an employee in my company and I had no reservations about hiring you as an employee despite the fact that you smoke. But I pass over you for a promotion solely because you smoke.
Does that seem fair? I'm not asking whether it's legal, or whether it happens. I'm just asking strictly from an ethical standpoint, does that seem fair to you?
(And of course, it doesn't have to be smoking - imagine replacing smoking with any health related condition or issue)

If it does, then I doubt we'll ever change each others minds.
While I think it depends a lot on the individual situation, I would say that in some cases yes it is fair. There are a number of factors related in selecting a candidate for a job, and not all of them have to do with the performance of the job itself. For small organization especially, personality fit can have a much more pronounced effect on the performance of the unit than the performance of the individual. So, for example, if you're hiring someone to do basic clerical work such as filing and taking dictation (because my hypothetical takes place in the 30's for some reason) then you may end up choosing someone whose personality fits in with the environment but may be second best at their job over someone who excels at the task but you can't get along with. Smoking (or other health/fitness related issues) go along with this. If I'm hiring someone to work closely with me on developing business plans for a start up, their outlook on things like smoking and fitness would have an impact on weather I hired them or not as they are somewhat indicative of how we would get along. In many ways an employment contract is similar to a relationship.

I think it's ethical.  Boss runs the business so he can hire who he likes.  It's fair for him not to hire someone he doesn't like and maybe he doesn't like smokers.  Barring protected classes of course.

Aushin

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7071 on: February 25, 2015, 12:43:18 PM »
i left room for 5%... proving depression is not a choice may be hard.  Cancer is preventable by diet.  Just check out the thread of the guy on here who was told his brain cancer was inoperable.  He has decreased the size solely by changing his diet ... there is a lot of research that has gone into the studies behind diet and cancer... and whether you want to believe them or not there are many cases out there like his that prove the way you eat can cause and/or reverse the effects of cancer. 

but thats my point.. prove whats a choice and what isnt.  where are you drawing the line and what gives you the right to draw it there.

um are we seriously debating this guy?

he thinks a change in  diet cures brain cancer

Here is the post by someone who has decreased his tumor size.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/reader-case-study-twins-on-the-way-i-have-brain-cancer-want-to-buy-a-house/

Your comment that changing a diet cant possibly cure or improve chances of cancer survival is akin to the 250k a year lawyer who thinks he can never retire b/c of his spending rate that we laugh at on here constantly. 

Yes the math is black and white.  But to flat out go against real results??? how do you think chemo was developed?  it was developed thru research and testing on people... But guess what there isnt very much money in telling someone to eat a whole foods diet or alter their diet etc.  There is money in prescription drugs and doctors visits.  Whether you want to call it hokey or not i'd eat a whole food diet before i'd put poison in my body. 

There is alot more information out there than just this one guys story.  He read a book by a doctor who has many success stories.  will it work for everyone maybe not but neither does western medicine.

and in this fellow MMMers story western medicine had no solution where diet did.
Sample size: 1

High odds that the diet had no impact on the shrinking of his tumor.  The biology and chemistry behind that outcome has far more variables than what he ate for lunch.

If I have a miscarriage right after drinking a Jamba Juice, is it the juice at fault?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 12:50:29 PM by Aushin »

GuitarStv

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7072 on: February 25, 2015, 12:47:49 PM »
Literally every decision you make in life is due to brain chemistry.  It could be quite effectively argued that pedophiles like little children because of brain chemistry and murderers kill because of brain chemistry.  There are chemical peculiarities in the brains of both.  Our legal system is based on the preconception of free will, but from a biological standpoint there's little evidence that free will actually exists.
Well, it depends, to avoid getting to a long drawn out discussion of philosophy among the foam, we really don't know enough about how the brain works to be able to say if we have free will or not. It seems that more often than not the question comes down to if someone is a dualist or a monist.

We've been making some big leaps and strides in the area of neuroscience over the past few years.  This is nothing to do with dualist/monist belief . . .

Most recent research indicates that free will (like conscious control over your descisions) doesn't really exist (http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/2010/04/06/scientists-say-free-will-probably-doesnt-exist-but-urge-dont-stop-believing/).  In fact, most decisions that the human brain makes are enacted a full ten seconds before you're consciously aware of what you'll do (http://rifters.com/real/articles/NatureNeuroScience_Soon_et_al.pdf), which kinda precludes any free will.  Your body can carry on living, talking, and doing things with your consciousness turned off (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329762.700-consciousness-onoff-switch-discovered-deep-in-brain.html?full=true#.VF4rlY_iCTw).  Even something as simple as a tumour can completely change the way you act (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2943-brain-tumour-causes-uncontrollable-paedophilia.html)

vivophoenix

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7073 on: February 25, 2015, 12:51:29 PM »
i left room for 5%... proving depression is not a choice may be hard.  Cancer is preventable by diet.  Just check out the thread of the guy on here who was told his brain cancer was inoperable.  He has decreased the size solely by changing his diet ... there is a lot of research that has gone into the studies behind diet and cancer... and whether you want to believe them or not there are many cases out there like his that prove the way you eat can cause and/or reverse the effects of cancer. 

but thats my point.. prove whats a choice and what isnt.  where are you drawing the line and what gives you the right to draw it there.




he thinks a change in  diet cures brain cancer

Not really, that's just his extreme example.  He's saying diet effects the likelihood of getting cancer, which there are studies to support this.  So his point is when do you stop providing medical support for cancer patients, if their choice of diet could have caused it?


and my point is when you start using extreme case studies to support a point, you might just be wrong and not worth arguing with.


ps the quote mechanism here always makes me feel elderly and incompetent
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 03:26:34 PM by vivophoenix »

Aushin

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7074 on: February 25, 2015, 12:53:18 PM »
heh, you did what I did vivo.  It looks like the post cuts off at a point and you type in there only to realize you're putting your response in the middle of the larger quote

RecoveringGearhead

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7075 on: February 25, 2015, 01:17:57 PM »
I pop in here to read every now and then for a laugh, but never really had anything good to share until now.

Just overheard a co-worker who's fiance just bought a $1.4M house and plans to demolish it to build their own.  I know what range of pay she makes and its less than mine.  Im stressing about turning my mortgage into a 180k with a construction loan. 

Not only is what he is doing completely absurd, but why in the heck does it make sense that she has to come here and put up with the stress that everyone sees her in when he is able to buy a $1.4M house?  WOW  Her 50-60k/yr isnt putting a dent in the retirement fund if he's able to do that.

So far from where my head is right now. 

intirb

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7076 on: February 25, 2015, 01:29:06 PM »
As someone who works in biomedical research and who has a prominent family history of cancer, maybe I can explain a few things about diet and cancer?

1.  Yes, it has been shown that eating a certain way will lower (or increase) your likelihood of getting certain types of cancer.  Eating too much, or eating not enough plants, have both been shown to substantially increase your risk of cancer (along with plenty of other diseases).  This is not a controversial statement in science - scientists might not be sure about the exact degree that diet matters, but consensus has been reached that it does play a role.

2.  No, it has not been shown that eating a certain way can cure or help treat cancer once you have it.  This does not mean that diet definitely won't help someone with cancer - it just means we haven't proved one way or another.  We don't know!  This is definitely an area of active research and controversy in the scientific community right now.  Current medical thinking is that patients should be free to try altering their diet (within reason) but that diet should not be used as a substitute for proven anti-cancer therapies (e.g. chemotherapy). 

3.  Chemotherapy is not "poison".  It does make you feel sick, so people sometimes use "poison" as a short-hand to explain how chemotherapy works and feels, but it's an oversimplification of the truth. There are a lot of different ways that chemotherapies work, but usually they target rapidly-growing cells.  Most cells in your body don't grow that fast, so they aren't affected at all by chemotherapy.  Some cells do grow fast - for example, hair cells, immune cells, and cancer cells.  Unfortunately, I've seen first-hand what cancer can do to a body, so believe me when I say that in most cases, the temporary terrible side effects of chemotherapy are better than the alternative.

If you want to learn more about diet and cancer, feel free to PM me.  I can send you sources or explain what I know. 

boarder42

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7077 on: February 25, 2015, 01:39:33 PM »
thanks ...

hopefully you prove 2. in the next few years so people can have an alternative to chemo with solid research and study.  I'd still go that path as i have seen enough evidence to support that i think it works. 
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Pooperman

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7078 on: February 25, 2015, 01:46:07 PM »
thanks ...

hopefully you prove 2. in the next few years so people can have an alternative to chemo with solid research and study.  I'd still go that path as i have seen enough evidence to support that i think it works.

What #2 is saying is that diet may help, but you'd still want to use chemo also. Give yourself the best chance overall.

boarder42

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7079 on: February 25, 2015, 01:48:20 PM »
thanks ...

hopefully you prove 2. in the next few years so people can have an alternative to chemo with solid research and study.  I'd still go that path as i have seen enough evidence to support that i think it works.

What #2 is saying is that diet may help, but you'd still want to use chemo also. Give yourself the best chance overall.

i can read i'm hoping they prove that you can do it without the need to kill off(poison) other parts of you body. 
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Pooperman

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7080 on: February 25, 2015, 01:52:49 PM »
thanks ...

hopefully you prove 2. in the next few years so people can have an alternative to chemo with solid research and study.  I'd still go that path as i have seen enough evidence to support that i think it works.

What #2 is saying is that diet may help, but you'd still want to use chemo also. Give yourself the best chance overall.

i can read i'm hoping they prove that you can do it without the need to kill off(poison) other parts of you body.

That simply will not be the case. There will be other methods (better targeted chemicals, viruses that cause your immune system to kill the cancer, etc). Diet alone will not be enough. It can (probably) help, but it can't do the fight alone.

Timmmy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7081 on: February 25, 2015, 01:57:48 PM »
Can someone point me to a legal basis for not being able to police an employee's health? I'm curious if such laws exist, though I imagine it's one of those things that varies from place to place. I'm not sure what the laws are in Canada. I do know that one of my employers does very closely police my health (military) and I consider it a good thing. This includes periodic medical checks at their expense, as well as allocated exercise periods during work days.
I can't point you to legal basis but I know that we have discussed at work that we can't make anyone get the highly recommended vaccinations for our jobs.

Employers have vast control over what happens on their property.  Theoretically they could ban certain foods or drinks for being brought on to the property.  If there's an impact on the working ability of the employee they have even more control.  Try showing up to operate heavy machinery with a buzz from the night before.  You can't exceed certain BMI thresholds for many jobs. 

Also, obesity leads to many complications and an increased number of sick days used.  I can see an employer wanting to limit that when possible.  If that means forcing employees to be healthier and firing them if they don't comply I don't see the problem.  Obviously true medical conditions would require some sort of exception to be granted.
See, I have a problem with the generalization that obesity leads to increased number of sick days. Lets just say that if my job had a BMI threshold I would never have gotten the job. But I am healthy, in that the last time I was at a doctor (was 2 yrs ago, though because I don't go to the doctor often) he ordered a full blood work up and couldn't find anything wrong with me. (Blood pressure good, cholesterol levels good, etc.) I exercise and eat my veggies, I just happen to also like chocolate and full fat yogurt and losing weight is extremely difficult for me.  I take a couple sick days a year, way less than the two days a month we are allowed. I did have the stomach flu this year so it was legitimate but other years I have taken more 'mental health' days when I just wanted to sleep in and read a good book because I hadn't been sick at all that year I didn't feel that guilty.

It's not a generalization.  It's a fact.  Summarized at the link below with references.

http://www.obesitycampaign.org/obesity_facts.asp

I also say that I really dislike BMI as a measure of anything.  I'm borderline obese by most BMI scales but I have less than 8% body fat and exercise 6+ times a week and recently ran a marathon.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7082 on: February 25, 2015, 02:03:16 PM »
i left room for 5%... proving depression is not a choice may be hard.  Cancer is preventable by diet.  Just check out the thread of the guy on here who was told his brain cancer was inoperable.  He has decreased the size solely by changing his diet ... there is a lot of research that has gone into the studies behind diet and cancer... and whether you want to believe them or not there are many cases out there like his that prove the way you eat can cause and/or reverse the effects of cancer. 

but thats my point.. prove whats a choice and what isnt.  where are you drawing the line and what gives you the right to draw it there.

um are we seriously debating this guy?

he thinks a change in  diet cures brain cancer

Here is the post by someone who has decreased his tumor size.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/reader-case-study-twins-on-the-way-i-have-brain-cancer-want-to-buy-a-house/

Your comment that changing a diet cant possibly cure or improve chances of cancer survival is akin to the 250k a year lawyer who thinks he can never retire b/c of his spending rate that we laugh at on here constantly. 

Yes the math is black and white.  But to flat out go against real results??? how do you think chemo was developed?  it was developed thru research and testing on people... But guess what there isnt very much money in telling someone to eat a whole foods diet or alter their diet etc.  There is money in prescription drugs and doctors visits.  Whether you want to call it hokey or not i'd eat a whole food diet before i'd put poison in my body. 

There is alot more information out there than just this one guys story.  He read a book by a doctor who has many success stories.  will it work for everyone maybe not but neither does western medicine.

and in this fellow MMMers story western medicine had no solution where diet did.
Sample size: 1
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Elliot

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7083 on: February 25, 2015, 02:04:44 PM »
For cancer, heart disease, and even many mental conditions, there are usually multiple risk factors involved. Some are modifiable, some are nonmodifiable. Diet is modifiable, drug and alcohol use is modifible, past hisotry of certain injuries or illnesses is nonmodifiable, genetic predisposition (like the BRCA genes in breast cancer) is nonmodifiable.

MgoSam

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7084 on: February 25, 2015, 02:20:43 PM »
Can someone point me to a legal basis for not being able to police an employee's health? I'm curious if such laws exist, though I imagine it's one of those things that varies from place to place. I'm not sure what the laws are in Canada. I do know that one of my employers does very closely police my health (military) and I consider it a good thing. This includes periodic medical checks at their expense, as well as allocated exercise periods during work days.
I can't point you to legal basis but I know that we have discussed at work that we can't make anyone get the highly recommended vaccinations for our jobs.

Employers have vast control over what happens on their property.  Theoretically they could ban certain foods or drinks for being brought on to the property.  If there's an impact on the working ability of the employee they have even more control.  Try showing up to operate heavy machinery with a buzz from the night before.  You can't exceed certain BMI thresholds for many jobs. 

Also, obesity leads to many complications and an increased number of sick days used.  I can see an employer wanting to limit that when possible.  If that means forcing employees to be healthier and firing them if they don't comply I don't see the problem.  Obviously true medical conditions would require some sort of exception to be granted.
See, I have a problem with the generalization that obesity leads to increased number of sick days. Lets just say that if my job had a BMI threshold I would never have gotten the job. But I am healthy, in that the last time I was at a doctor (was 2 yrs ago, though because I don't go to the doctor often) he ordered a full blood work up and couldn't find anything wrong with me. (Blood pressure good, cholesterol levels good, etc.) I exercise and eat my veggies, I just happen to also like chocolate and full fat yogurt and losing weight is extremely difficult for me.  I take a couple sick days a year, way less than the two days a month we are allowed. I did have the stomach flu this year so it was legitimate but other years I have taken more 'mental health' days when I just wanted to sleep in and read a good book because I hadn't been sick at all that year I didn't feel that guilty.

It's not a generalization.  It's a fact.  Summarized at the link below with references.

http://www.obesitycampaign.org/obesity_facts.asp

I also say that I really dislike BMI as a measure of anything.  I'm borderline obese by most BMI scales but I have less than 8% body fat and exercise 6+ times a week and recently ran a marathon.

I wish I remembered his name, but there was a Commandant of the Marines that had loved to cut through the tape. When he was touring a base, a bigger marine came up to him and said, "Sir, I'm going to be kicked out because my weight is above the regulations, but I can do all the runs." The runs he was referring to was a 2 mile run which had to be under a certain point. The commandant looked at him and said, "Show me," and had him run 2 miles on the spot, when he came under, he made sure that he got an exception. I recall reading this in "Making the Corps" by Thomas Hicks, but it was many years ago and might have gotten some of the details wrong.

Unique User

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7085 on: February 25, 2015, 02:32:21 PM »
It's a free country - if you find someone's habits disgusting, you don't have to employ them. With very few protected exceptions. And vice versa, with no protected exceptions - you don't have to work for anyone you don't like.
Ok. Suppose you smoke, and I'm a hiring manager. It's ok not for me to hire you solely because you smoke? (Also suppose in this situation that being healthy has nothing to do with the company brand or image - ie, this company is not, say, Whole Foods.)
Or suppose you're an employee in my company and I had no reservations about hiring you as an employee despite the fact that you smoke. But I pass over you for a promotion solely because you smoke.
Does that seem fair?

If it does, then I suppose we have nothing more to talk about.

There are employers (primarily hospitals) that require employees to pass a drug test before they can start, I've also seen hospitals  that have nicotine on the drug test.  If you are a smoker, you don't pass the drug test and you now have no job.  It's only allowed in certain states, but the trend is growing, at least in healthcare.   

boarder42

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7086 on: February 25, 2015, 02:39:04 PM »
It's a free country - if you find someone's habits disgusting, you don't have to employ them. With very few protected exceptions. And vice versa, with no protected exceptions - you don't have to work for anyone you don't like.
Ok. Suppose you smoke, and I'm a hiring manager. It's ok not for me to hire you solely because you smoke? (Also suppose in this situation that being healthy has nothing to do with the company brand or image - ie, this company is not, say, Whole Foods.)
Or suppose you're an employee in my company and I had no reservations about hiring you as an employee despite the fact that you smoke. But I pass over you for a promotion solely because you smoke.
Does that seem fair?

If it does, then I suppose we have nothing more to talk about.

There are employers (primarily hospitals) that require employees to pass a drug test before they can start, I've also seen hospitals  that have nicotine on the drug test.  If you are a smoker, you don't pass the drug test and you now have no job.  It's only allowed in certain states, but the trend is growing, at least in healthcare.   

imagine how gross it would be to have a dentist or someone who smoked leaning over your face operating on you.  or the asst.  i wouldnt go back to that dentist if he or his asst smelled like smoke.  I see it as very unclean.
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johnny847

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7087 on: February 25, 2015, 04:35:15 PM »
Posthumane, then I'll posit this question:
Ok. Suppose you smoke, and I'm a hiring manager. It's ok not for me to hire you solely because you smoke? (Also suppose in this situation that being healthy has nothing to do with the company brand or image - ie, this company is not, say, Whole Foods.)
Or suppose you're an employee in my company and I had no reservations about hiring you as an employee despite the fact that you smoke. But I pass over you for a promotion solely because you smoke.
Does that seem fair? I'm not asking whether it's legal, or whether it happens. I'm just asking strictly from an ethical standpoint, does that seem fair to you?
(And of course, it doesn't have to be smoking - imagine replacing smoking with any health related condition or issue)

If it does, then I doubt we'll ever change each others minds.
While I think it depends a lot on the individual situation, I would say that in some cases yes it is fair. There are a number of factors related in selecting a candidate for a job, and not all of them have to do with the performance of the job itself. For small organization especially, personality fit can have a much more pronounced effect on the performance of the unit than the performance of the individual. So, for example, if you're hiring someone to do basic clerical work such as filing and taking dictation (because my hypothetical takes place in the 30's for some reason) then you may end up choosing someone whose personality fits in with the environment but may be second best at their job over someone who excels at the task but you can't get along with. Smoking (or other health/fitness related issues) go along with this. If I'm hiring someone to work closely with me on developing business plans for a start up, their outlook on things like smoking and fitness would have an impact on weather I hired them or not as they are somewhat indicative of how we would get along. In many ways an employment contract is similar to a relationship.

I think it's ethical.  Boss runs the business so he can hire who he likes.  It's fair for him not to hire someone he doesn't like and maybe he doesn't like smokers.  Barring protected classes of course.
I guess I'm contradicting myself here - I do have another question for you.
Replace smoking with practicing Christianity. Or Islam. Or being female. Or being black.
These are all protected classes. I would assume that if I had replaced smoking with any such things, you would have agreed it's not ethical.

So why is smoking different? Dragoncar, you say it's ethical for a boss to hire who he or she likes, and the fact that the boss doesn't like smokers makes it ok not to hire someone simply because they smoke. But you also say barring protected classes. Suppose smokers became a protected class, is it now ethical? Why does it have to be a protected class for it to not be ethical to discriminate against?

SantaFeSteve

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7088 on: February 25, 2015, 04:42:13 PM »
Posthumane, then I'll posit this question:
Ok. Suppose you smoke, and I'm a hiring manager. It's ok not for me to hire you solely because you smoke? (Also suppose in this situation that being healthy has nothing to do with the company brand or image - ie, this company is not, say, Whole Foods.)
Or suppose you're an employee in my company and I had no reservations about hiring you as an employee despite the fact that you smoke. But I pass over you for a promotion solely because you smoke.
Does that seem fair? I'm not asking whether it's legal, or whether it happens. I'm just asking strictly from an ethical standpoint, does that seem fair to you?
(And of course, it doesn't have to be smoking - imagine replacing smoking with any health related condition or issue)

If it does, then I doubt we'll ever change each others minds.
While I think it depends a lot on the individual situation, I would say that in some cases yes it is fair. There are a number of factors related in selecting a candidate for a job, and not all of them have to do with the performance of the job itself. For small organization especially, personality fit can have a much more pronounced effect on the performance of the unit than the performance of the individual. So, for example, if you're hiring someone to do basic clerical work such as filing and taking dictation (because my hypothetical takes place in the 30's for some reason) then you may end up choosing someone whose personality fits in with the environment but may be second best at their job over someone who excels at the task but you can't get along with. Smoking (or other health/fitness related issues) go along with this. If I'm hiring someone to work closely with me on developing business plans for a start up, their outlook on things like smoking and fitness would have an impact on weather I hired them or not as they are somewhat indicative of how we would get along. In many ways an employment contract is similar to a relationship.

I think it's ethical.  Boss runs the business so he can hire who he likes.  It's fair for him not to hire someone he doesn't like and maybe he doesn't like smokers.  Barring protected classes of course.
I guess I'm contradicting myself here - I do have another question for you.
Replace smoking with practicing Christianity. Or Islam. Or being female. Or being black.
These are all protected classes. I would assume that if I had replaced smoking with any such things, you would have agreed it's not ethical.

So why is smoking different? Dragoncar, you say it's ethical for a boss to hire who he or she likes, and the fact that the boss doesn't like smokers makes it ok not to hire someone simply because they smoke. But you also say barring protected classes. Suppose smokers became a protected class, is it now ethical? Why does it have to be a protected class for it to not be ethical to discriminate against?

Any chance you folks want to start a new thread to discuss this?

Two9A

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7089 on: February 25, 2015, 05:19:06 PM »
Any chance you folks want to start a new thread to discuss this?
Isn't foam the entire point of this thread, though? It rises from time to time...

austin

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7090 on: February 25, 2015, 05:38:25 PM »
i left room for 5%... proving depression is not a choice may be hard.  Cancer is preventable by diet.  Just check out the thread of the guy on here who was told his brain cancer was inoperable.  He has decreased the size solely by changing his diet ... there is a lot of research that has gone into the studies behind diet and cancer... and whether you want to believe them or not there are many cases out there like his that prove the way you eat can cause and/or reverse the effects of cancer. 

but thats my point.. prove whats a choice and what isnt.  where are you drawing the line and what gives you the right to draw it there.

This place is always good for a laugh.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7091 on: February 25, 2015, 06:41:21 PM »
Ouch.  At least interest rates are low right now.

(rescuing a appropriate story from the froth of foam).

Back on track to what I actually overheard at work.

Coworker is renewing her mortgage, normally in Canada it needs to be renewed about every 5 years until it is paid off, but you can get terms longer or shorter. So coworker tells me that they are doing theirs next week and rolling all of their debt, a substantial amount of credit card debt, line of credit, etc. into their mortgage. Then she tells me that they do this every time their mortgage comes up for renewal. Plus this time they are only getting a 3 year term since they find it hard to wait the 5 years to be able to get all their debt paid off.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7092 on: February 25, 2015, 07:13:23 PM »
So we got our annual performance bonuses yesterday. Pretty much everyone in the office went out to eat at various fancy places to celebrate. I was on leave, so I didn't spend on eating out. I just chucked my entire bonus into my investment account.

I used to have a smug sense of satisfaction, like I was superior to everyone else for making the right choices. But now, it just makes me sad, because I know for a fact that some of my co-workers are struggling, really, urgently, desperately struggling, with credit card debt and mortgages. They're mostly great people and hard workers. I just don't understand their priorities.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7093 on: February 25, 2015, 07:46:00 PM »
I just don't understand their priorities.

They don't understand yours either. It is sad, but we are the weird ones. Always remember that.
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Pooperman

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7094 on: February 25, 2015, 07:57:00 PM »
I just don't understand their priorities.

They don't understand yours either. It is sad, but we are the weird ones. Always remember that.

Are we all really just contrarians who know how to math?

Adventine

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7095 on: February 25, 2015, 07:59:23 PM »
I hated all my math subjects in school, but I love saving money. A true contrarian!

Zikoris

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7096 on: February 25, 2015, 08:58:32 PM »
So we got our annual performance bonuses yesterday. Pretty much everyone in the office went out to eat at various fancy places to celebrate. I was on leave, so I didn't spend on eating out. I just chucked my entire bonus into my investment account.

I used to have a smug sense of satisfaction, like I was superior to everyone else for making the right choices. But now, it just makes me sad, because I know for a fact that some of my co-workers are struggling, really, urgently, desperately struggling, with credit card debt and mortgages. They're mostly great people and hard workers. I just don't understand their priorities.

I used to work for a company that did annual bonuses, and that was exactly what people did there! To make it worse, the job was otherwise sort of low paying (around $12/hr) and most of the people regularly had money problems, debts, got their phone service cut off, or were on the verge of eviction. Yet bonus day comes around and suddenly everyone's shopping, going to bars and fancier restaurants, the works. The a week later crying on the floor because they couldn't afford rent. I felt like I was working in Crazyland.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7097 on: February 26, 2015, 01:17:34 AM »
I guess I don't have a problem if you get a bonus and treat yourself to go out to eat once.  I used to set a rule that I would spend 10% of any "found" money -- bonus, gift, etc.  This was because for a time I was SO focused on my goals, I didn't let myself splurge ANY stuff  (well, I did, I wasn't that Mustachian at the time, but I was pretty focused and spending was accompanied by a lot of guilt).  I liked being able to enjoy a windfall in a guilt-free short- AND long-term way. Of course, now I'm out of debt and I don't do that.  "Extra" money all gets invested directly towards a few goals.  That's because my budget now includes some "extra" that gets whisked away to a on-line savings account that I transfer back when I want to spend it: guilt free.  I guess that's like Ramsey, but it works for me.

Of course, if your coworkers had that mind set, then their little celebration wouldn't bother you and they wouldn't be back to complaining the next week about money.

Ann

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7098 on: February 26, 2015, 03:04:43 AM »
Like I said, I am okay if the extravagant "celebration" for a bonus is one meal in a restaurant.  When you mentioned "shopping" is made me cringe.  One person I know got a new job and got a good deal of unused sick leave paid out to her.  I'm not sure, but she made it sound like two months worth of pay!  I KNOW she has credit card debt and a car loan.  What did she do?  I hope she used some of it to pay her debt down, but she did buy a trampoline.

And I know that she had a doctor's visit this year and get some imaging.   Her deductible hadn't been met yet, so she had to put that on a credit card.  Why?  Why is your deductible an "unexpected" expense!?!  That isn't even "emergency fund" criteria.  At most it is an "infrequent" expense.  Having credit card debit does not bother her AT ALL, almost to the point that she would rather HAVE it than NOT have it.  What?!?!?!

pancakes

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #7099 on: February 26, 2015, 03:50:02 AM »
Another "I got speeding ticket" from a co-worked this week followed by "another $100 fine that I can't afford" followed by everyone discussing how difficult it is to not speed.

There are employers (primarily hospitals) that require employees to pass a drug test before they can start, I've also seen hospitals  that have nicotine on the drug test.  If you are a smoker, you don't pass the drug test and you now have no job.  It's only allowed in certain states, but the trend is growing, at least in healthcare.
I had the most intense physical examination and drug test before I started my current role (in an office). The company I work for employs a lot of physical labourers in high risk environments and they apply their hiring conditions across the board. Both the examiner and I were both completely perplexed as to why I had demonstrate the ability to do 30 squats/pushups/sit-ups in order to work in an office. I'm pretty sure I would have still be offered the job if I'd failed though but probably not if I'd failed the drug test.

We get randomly drug and alcohol tested too, at least once a year. Smoking tobacco is ok but not on company premises or within 5 meters of the building.