Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 13253267 times)

Albert

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5500 on: November 24, 2014, 12:56:05 PM »
My husband is an above average musician (conservatory trained, the lot; I'll PM you proof if you want) and we're in a city with a lot of rich people who fund theater and the arts, and we're a national, if not international, tourist destination for that kind of thing too. I run the back office of some private music teachers too, actually, and know roughly what they make. There are still far, far, far more above average ability musicians and actors here than there are middle class level jobs for them, which is backed up by the statistics kept by their unions. Perhaps things are different there.

Or maybe the ones I know are the lucky ones. I'm not pretending on a statistically relevant overview.

In other words, just like in the United States, the Swiss value paying public servants over paying entertainers, which is glaringly obvious in how they choose to spend their money.

Obviously. Where you under the impression that I implied the opposite?

Tallgirl1204

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5501 on: November 24, 2014, 01:35:10 PM »
Quote
What makes a degree useful or not?

The average salary of those with that degree?  Something else?

A degree is useful if it enables you do work that you enjoy.    (It's not useful for its educational value because you can get the education without the degree.)

I like the above description quite a bit.  I'd argue, however for a slight modification:

A degree is useful if it enables you do work that you enjoy better than other degrees.


You might be able to get work that you enjoy as a double women's studies major, but odds are high that you won't be working as a woman's studies professor.  Whatever career you fall into would likely have been better served by a different degree.

That definition makes most degrees for most people fall into the "useless" definition - even STEM degrees.

Nearly 75 percent of all holders of bachelor’s degrees in STEM disciplines don’t have jobs in STEM occupations.  Therefore (assuming they're doing work they enjoy) they should have gotten a degree in that field, as it likely would have been "better" or been better able to get them into that field they enjoy.

Quantifying what makes a degree useful or useless seems very tricky, if not impossible, to me.  So I'm always wary when someone uses those words, which is why I was wondering what austin meant when he said people here get "a less than useful or soft degree."

I would argue one can enjoy getting a degree and that makes it useful.  I can see why others would say it's still a useless degree, you just enjoyed getting the useless degree.

What if you learned methods of thinking in your degree, but it didn't help you get work you enjoy?  Is it still useless?

Yep, still useless because you could have learned the methods of thinking without the costs associated with the degree.  We live in the information age.  Learning of virtually any kind can be done pretty easily on your own initiative without the formal trappings of education.

A degree only serves as a piece of paper to stick behind glass.  The purpose of that piece of paper is to get you work that you enjoy.  If your piece of paper doesn't get you the work you enjoy (or if you could get the work you enjoy without it), you've wasted money on it. 

The fact that so few people get work in their field demonstrates that the actual knowledge you acquire from a degree isn't too important for most jobs.  They just want proof of a minimum baseline from which to draw employees.

Who you know* > what you know

*provided you can at least DO the job you get obviously.

Wow, I have watched this unfold with fascination.  I have a BA and a BS (guess that makes me stupid too?) with three majors.  In my current (and final) career, I use NONE of the three majors directly, but all three are critical in my day-to-day success.  I would not be here without having chased each of those majors for a period of time, leading to the next opportunities and finally to this one. 

At the job I have now, I use skills learned in all three majors, almost every day.  I am fearless about public speaking, because my teaching (BS) and music (BA) majors prepared me for how to behave in front of a large group.  My teaching skills help me manage negotiations and discussions in difficult groups.  The business skills (second BA major) make everyday analysis of data and information possible.

So yes, they're all just "pieces of paper behind glass" but a broad and meandering career doesn't mean that the education that started it was a waste.  Talking with others in my industry, most of us took this path.  Our education informs us, but the words on our diplomas rarely match the words in our job titles. 

How do I measure "success" in my job?  If I screw up, no one dies (I could never be a nurse).  I don't make all that much money, at least not how you guys seem to measure it.  But success looks like:  millions of people having a seamless experience in a public venue, without ever having to know that the work I do even goes on behind the scenes.  Success is the respect of my peers who join me in this work.  And finally, success is knowing that I brought my A game to the table and made a difference. 

jordanread

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5502 on: November 24, 2014, 01:52:43 PM »
As the person who asked the question that seems to have had a part in starting this topic, I must say I've learned a lot. Nothing useful to me, but interesting nonetheless. However, it wasn't until the comment below that I felt the need to take this even more off-topic. :-)

Wow, I have watched this unfold with fascination.  I have a BA and a BS (guess that makes me stupid too?) with three majors.  In my current (and final) career, I use NONE of the three majors directly, but all three are critical in my day-to-day success.  I would not be here without having chased each of those majors for a period of time, leading to the next opportunities and finally to this one. 

At the job I have now, I use skills learned in all three majors, almost every day.  I am fearless about public speaking, because my teaching (BS) and music (BA) majors prepared me for how to behave in front of a large group.  My teaching skills help me manage negotiations and discussions in difficult groups.  The business skills (second BA major) make everyday analysis of data and information possible.

So yes, they're all just "pieces of paper behind glass" but a broad and meandering career doesn't mean that the education that started it was a waste.  Talking with others in my industry, most of us took this path.  Our education informs us, but the words on our diplomas rarely match the words in our job titles. 

How do I measure "success" in my job?  If I screw up, no one dies (I could never be a nurse).  I don't make all that much money, at least not how you guys seem to measure it.  But success looks like:  millions of people having a seamless experience in a public venue, without ever having to know that the work I do even goes on behind the scenes.  Success is the respect of my peers who join me in this work.  And finally, success is knowing that I brought my A game to the table and made a difference.

First off, I'm not attacking you. I think it's awesome that you have found value in your degrees. The question I'd ask you, since you have such a positive outlook secondary education, is how much the journey helped you as opposed to the skills. As has been mentioned before, the knowledge and skills to reach a degree are available without actually going through a degree course. Do you think that you personally benefited from part of the process, and how so?

Albert

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5503 on: November 24, 2014, 01:59:57 PM »
In most fields you simply won't get the first job without a degree and thus will get no chance to show your skills acquired elsewhere.

SisterX

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5504 on: November 24, 2014, 02:07:16 PM »
Quote
What makes a degree useful or not?

The average salary of those with that degree?  Something else?

A degree is useful if it enables you do work that you enjoy.    (It's not useful for its educational value because you can get the education without the degree.)

I like the above description quite a bit.  I'd argue, however for a slight modification:

A degree is useful if it enables you do work that you enjoy better than other degrees.


You might be able to get work that you enjoy as a double women's studies major, but odds are high that you won't be working as a woman's studies professor.  Whatever career you fall into would likely have been better served by a different degree.

That definition makes most degrees for most people fall into the "useless" definition - even STEM degrees.

Nearly 75 percent of all holders of bachelor’s degrees in STEM disciplines don’t have jobs in STEM occupations.  Therefore (assuming they're doing work they enjoy) they should have gotten a degree in that field, as it likely would have been "better" or been better able to get them into that field they enjoy.

Quantifying what makes a degree useful or useless seems very tricky, if not impossible, to me.  So I'm always wary when someone uses those words, which is why I was wondering what austin meant when he said people here get "a less than useful or soft degree."

I would argue one can enjoy getting a degree and that makes it useful.  I can see why others would say it's still a useless degree, you just enjoyed getting the useless degree.

What if you learned methods of thinking in your degree, but it didn't help you get work you enjoy?  Is it still useless?

Oh, Arbelspy!  We silly liberal arts majors just need to learn to be put in our place.  Don't we realize that without those typing a few lines of code, or studying data on rocks, or making mathematical proofs which only three other people will read, the world will END?  How could those things NOT be more useful than studying human nature?
Some of us have talents in multiple directions and - gasp! - CHOSE to do liberal arts!  Clearly, stupid and useless.  Drains on humanity!
Some people just don't have enough sense of their own inherent self worth and so feel the need to put others down for making choices which they wouldn't (or couldn't) have made.  It's rather silly, and also a sign of poor intelligence, I might add.  You might be smart in your code or your reading of data or math or what have you, but you're still not as smart as you think you are if you feel the need to put down other people because their intelligence takes a different form than yours.
Can we please get back to making fun of people's stupid financial decisions that we've heard at work?  I'm sorry I ever mentioned this story in the first place.  The intent was to make people laugh, not to open up another "my degree is better than yours because thpbtffft!" discussion.

ralfeg7

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5505 on: November 24, 2014, 02:07:59 PM »
At work the other day my cubemate is looking at his investment portfolio online when his Boss comes and sits down next to him to discuss something. I have no idea what he is invested in but his boss looks at the screen and asks. "Oh hey, you have a lot of stocks, why don't you just invest in the company?"

Cubemate looks at him and says "I own some company stock but I don't think it's a good idea to put all your eggs in one basket, what if we tank one day?"

Boss replies "But you're an employee! You can change the direction of the company and you know the outcome!"

Cubemate responds "If I knew the outcome then marketing campaign X this year was a real surprise to me!"

I have no idea what my cube mate is invested in, I hope it's all index funds but if not that at least I'm glad that he knows enough to be diversified.

jordanread

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5506 on: November 24, 2014, 02:35:29 PM »
That definition makes most degrees for most people fall into the "useless" definition - even STEM degrees.

Nearly 75 percent of all holders of bachelor’s degrees in STEM disciplines don’t have jobs in STEM occupations.  Therefore (assuming they're doing work they enjoy) they should have gotten a degree in that field, as it likely would have been "better" or been better able to get them into that field they enjoy.

Quantifying what makes a degree useful or useless seems very tricky, if not impossible, to me.  So I'm always wary when someone uses those words, which is why I was wondering what austin meant when he said people here get "a less than useful or soft degree."

I would argue one can enjoy getting a degree and that makes it useful.  I can see why others would say it's still a useless degree, you just enjoyed getting the useless degree.

What if you learned methods of thinking in your degree, but it didn't help you get work you enjoy?  Is it still useless?

Oh, Arbelspy!  We silly liberal arts majors just need to learn to be put in our place.  Don't we realize that without those typing a few lines of code, or studying data on rocks, or making mathematical proofs which only three other people will read, the world will END?  How could those things NOT be more useful than studying human nature?
Some of us have talents in multiple directions and - gasp! - CHOSE to do liberal arts!  Clearly, stupid and useless.  Drains on humanity!
Some people just don't have enough sense of their own inherent self worth and so feel the need to put others down for making choices which they wouldn't (or couldn't) have made.  It's rather silly, and also a sign of poor intelligence, I might add.  You might be smart in your code or your reading of data or math or what have you, but you're still not as smart as you think you are if you feel the need to put down other people because their intelligence takes a different form than yours.
Can we please get back to making fun of people's stupid financial decisions that we've heard at work?  I'm sorry I ever mentioned this story in the first place.  The intent was to make people laugh, not to open up another "my degree is better than yours because thpbtffft!" discussion.
Ah, SisterX...so much awesomeness comes from you, I can't believe this was really you. On to the snarky reply:

Some of us read the comments, and the context of said comments.
Some people have enough self worth to not take things personally. ;-)

On a more serious note, does liberal arts equate with a BA? I never bothered looking into it, and while I could Google it, it seems subjective, and I'd be more curious as to the explanation from people here.

Tallgirl1204

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5507 on: November 24, 2014, 02:41:36 PM »
As the person who asked the question that seems to have had a part in starting this topic, I must say I've learned a lot. Nothing useful to me, but interesting nonetheless. However, it wasn't until the comment below that I felt the need to take this even more off-topic. :-)

Wow, I have watched this unfold with fascination.  I have a BA and a BS (guess that makes me stupid too?) with three majors.  In my current (and final) career, I use NONE of the three majors directly, but all three are critical in my day-to-day success.  I would not be here without having chased each of those majors for a period of time, leading to the next opportunities and finally to this one. 

At the job I have now, I use skills learned in all three majors, almost every day.  I am fearless about public speaking, because my teaching (BS) and music (BA) majors prepared me for how to behave in front of a large group.  My teaching skills help me manage negotiations and discussions in difficult groups.  The business skills (second BA major) make everyday analysis of data and information possible.

So yes, they're all just "pieces of paper behind glass" but a broad and meandering career doesn't mean that the education that started it was a waste.  Talking with others in my industry, most of us took this path.  Our education informs us, but the words on our diplomas rarely match the words in our job titles. 

How do I measure "success" in my job?  If I screw up, no one dies (I could never be a nurse).  I don't make all that much money, at least not how you guys seem to measure it.  But success looks like:  millions of people having a seamless experience in a public venue, without ever having to know that the work I do even goes on behind the scenes.  Success is the respect of my peers who join me in this work.  And finally, success is knowing that I brought my A game to the table and made a difference.

First off, I'm not attacking you. I think it's awesome that you have found value in your degrees. The question I'd ask you, since you have such a positive outlook secondary education, is how much the journey helped you as opposed to the skills. As has been mentioned before, the knowledge and skills to reach a degree are available without actually going through a degree course. Do you think that you personally benefited from part of the process, and how so?

Hmmm.  Looking back, I could have (maybe) and should have (maybe) done a different degree-- that is, if I had known then what I know now.  But here's the thing:  I didn't know.  I thought I was going to get my music degree, marry well and join the junior league.  A little worry about that plan led me to double major with business.  And then a summer job (which my music degree landed me) led to a permanent change of geography, which led to a new idea about teaching, which led to the second degree, which led to a short-lived and unsuccessful teaching career (I am not cut out to teach junior high), which led to a post-teaching-career "whew!" job, which led to this one.... 

College is only a small part of this journey.  Looking back, the classes paid off in ways that I can't know for sure-- playing piano made me a super fast typist.  Music theory helps (they say) in understanding and using software.  Learning to write clearly from multiple teachers in multiple kinds of classes benefits my work every day.  Knowing how to read a balance sheet and to call bullshit when I see cash flow that doesn't make sense-- that helps too.  And then there's the random stuff about public health, and human genetics, and the history of Western Music, and the relationship of Art and Religion, that come in to play at odd times and in odd moments at work.  (I do have a very interesting job, come to think of it.)

Could I have learned all these things on my own?  Maybe.  But would I have?  There is a lot to be said for the structure of having to sit in a class and take notes and tests.  And I'm a big believer that developing neural connections in random ways helps one become more mentally flexible for the next learning challenge. 

Does that help at all? 

Ferrisbueller

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5508 on: November 24, 2014, 02:54:16 PM »
Two degrees here engineering bachelors and financial math masters but sometimes I think I should have become a plummer first, then an electrician and then a car mechanic. I love all that shit but am utterly useless at it.

jordanread

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5509 on: November 24, 2014, 02:55:53 PM »
As the person who asked the question that seems to have had a part in starting this topic, I must say I've learned a lot. Nothing useful to me, but interesting nonetheless. However, it wasn't until the comment below that I felt the need to take this even more off-topic. :-)

Wow, I have watched this unfold with fascination.  I have a BA and a BS (guess that makes me stupid too?) with three majors.  In my current (and final) career, I use NONE of the three majors directly, but all three are critical in my day-to-day success.  I would not be here without having chased each of those majors for a period of time, leading to the next opportunities and finally to this one. 

At the job I have now, I use skills learned in all three majors, almost every day.  I am fearless about public speaking, because my teaching (BS) and music (BA) majors prepared me for how to behave in front of a large group.  My teaching skills help me manage negotiations and discussions in difficult groups.  The business skills (second BA major) make everyday analysis of data and information possible.

So yes, they're all just "pieces of paper behind glass" but a broad and meandering career doesn't mean that the education that started it was a waste.  Talking with others in my industry, most of us took this path.  Our education informs us, but the words on our diplomas rarely match the words in our job titles. 

How do I measure "success" in my job?  If I screw up, no one dies (I could never be a nurse).  I don't make all that much money, at least not how you guys seem to measure it.  But success looks like:  millions of people having a seamless experience in a public venue, without ever having to know that the work I do even goes on behind the scenes.  Success is the respect of my peers who join me in this work.  And finally, success is knowing that I brought my A game to the table and made a difference.

First off, I'm not attacking you. I think it's awesome that you have found value in your degrees. The question I'd ask you, since you have such a positive outlook secondary education, is how much the journey helped you as opposed to the skills. As has been mentioned before, the knowledge and skills to reach a degree are available without actually going through a degree course. Do you think that you personally benefited from part of the process, and how so?

Hmmm.  Looking back, I could have (maybe) and should have (maybe) done a different degree-- that is, if I had known then what I know now.  But here's the thing:  I didn't know.  I thought I was going to get my music degree, marry well and join the junior league.  A little worry about that plan led me to double major with business.  And then a summer job (which my music degree landed me) led to a permanent change of geography, which led to a new idea about teaching, which led to the second degree, which led to a short-lived and unsuccessful teaching career (I am not cut out to teach junior high), which led to a post-teaching-career "whew!" job, which led to this one.... 

College is only a small part of this journey.  Looking back, the classes paid off in ways that I can't know for sure-- playing piano made me a super fast typist.  Music theory helps (they say) in understanding and using software.  Learning to write clearly from multiple teachers in multiple kinds of classes benefits my work every day.  Knowing how to read a balance sheet and to call bullshit when I see cash flow that doesn't make sense-- that helps too.  And then there's the random stuff about public health, and human genetics, and the history of Western Music, and the relationship of Art and Religion, that come in to play at odd times and in odd moments at work.  (I do have a very interesting job, come to think of it.)

Could I have learned all these things on my own?  Maybe.  But would I have?  There is a lot to be said for the structure of having to sit in a class and take notes and tests.  And I'm a big believer that developing neural connections in random ways helps one become more mentally flexible for the next learning challenge. 

Does that help at all?

That does help, although I would argue the point that college was only a small part of that journey. I think that the structure of the secondary education system did provide you with a good amount of guidance.

I'm constantly re-evaluating my beliefs, and I do understand that what is, and what I think should be, are different; your response helps. It makes one wonder if things are going to take a turn with the next generation, who focuses on skill, as opposed to nepotism, relationships, or arbitrary documents. It certainly should, but I do wonder how many lives have been changed by an experience like yours.

Primm

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5510 on: November 24, 2014, 03:36:23 PM »
It's not shit, but it's not great compared to what I could get with an equivalent qualification in, say, CS. And not have to work nights, weekends and public holidays. And not have people spit in my face. Plus there's the home town (dis)advantage.
[...]

I hope it's the babies spitting in your face...

Um, not always...

GuitarStv

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5511 on: November 24, 2014, 03:48:03 PM »
Our college only granted BA, BF and BM degrees. So my husband has BA degrees in Computer Science and Math. It's never been considered a problem or inferior to a BS, as far as I know.



Hmmm . .. a degree in BMs?  I think we can all agree that that is a  . . . shitty degree?


:P

Tallgirl1204

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5512 on: November 24, 2014, 04:30:11 PM »
It's not shit, but it's not great compared to what I could get with an equivalent qualification in, say, CS. And not have to work nights, weekends and public holidays. And not have people spit in my face. Plus there's the home town (dis)advantage.
[...]

I hope it's the babies spitting in your face...

Um, not always...

I have friends who are emergency room nurses.  In this town (probably like many others) the ER operates as a de facto drunk tank, and the street alcoholics are regular guests who are NOT easy to be around.  Spitting is the least of the nurses' troubles... 

Tallgirl1204

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5513 on: November 24, 2014, 04:31:45 PM »
Our college only granted BA, BF and BM degrees. So my husband has BA degrees in Computer Science and Math. It's never been considered a problem or inferior to a BS, as far as I know.



Hmmm . .. a degree in BMs?  I think we can all agree that that is a  . . . shitty degree?


:P

Bachelor of Music, I think.  Much like the earlier BS vs. BA conversation, the BMs looked down on the BA Music majors (of whom I was one). 

jamal utah

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5514 on: November 24, 2014, 04:57:01 PM »
The receptionist at my office rents a home in the mountains and commutes 50 minutes each way to a job that pays around $30,000. Her husband is an hourly employee at grocery store.  Last year we had some terrible flooding in the area that took out a number of roads.  I overheard this receptionist saying that her and her husband were applying for FEMA money because the flood washed out main commuter road which increased their commutes even further to a point where it was costing her husband more in gas to get to and from their home than he was making by being at the job.  They both drive jeeps.  The person being told this story said "why not just move closer to work" and the receptionist snapped back that it wasn't an option because they were "mountain people."  Mountain people, mind you, that just recently moved to the area from a large east coast city.

The whole exchange was terrifying and hilarious at the same time.

SisterX

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5515 on: November 24, 2014, 05:14:41 PM »

Some people have enough self worth to not take things personally. ;-)

On a more serious note, does liberal arts equate with a BA? I never bothered looking into it, and while I could Google it, it seems subjective, and I'd be more curious as to the explanation from people here.

I wasn't taking it personally, which was why I was attempting a humorous tone.  Did it not come through that way?

Liberal arts clearly does not always equate with BA, however the original post by Sol was yet another "I'm better because I don't have a silly, wasteful liberal arts degree" remark.
The receptionist at my office rents a home in the mountains and commutes 50 minutes each way to a job that pays around $30,000. Her husband is an hourly employee at grocery store.  Last year we had some terrible flooding in the area that took out a number of roads.  I overheard this receptionist saying that her and her husband were applying for FEMA money because the flood washed out main commuter road which increased their commutes even further to a point where it was costing her husband more in gas to get to and from their home than he was making by being at the job.  They both drive jeeps.  The person being told this story said "why not just move closer to work" and the receptionist snapped back that it wasn't an option because they were "mountain people."  Mountain people, mind you, that just recently moved to the area from a large east coast city.

The whole exchange was terrifying and hilarious at the same time.

Horrifying.  Love it.  Love everything about it.  This is the schadenfreude I'm here for!

wepner

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5516 on: November 24, 2014, 05:15:29 PM »
I have a BA in history from a selective liberals arts college. The main value I got from the degree was...meeting my husband on campus. Now, this is not a trivial thing. While it's certainly possible that I could have met someone similar without going to college, college is this magical place where the admissions office has kindly pre-selected a group of peers for you who are similar in age, intelligence and background. I suspect I would have met someone similar at a state school, though it probably would have been harder because the caliber of the students tends to be lower on average.

Which skills or qualities that are important to you in a husband tend to be found in "selective" schools more than state schools?

Also I'm pretty sure that college admissions offices are strongly encouraged to select people with vastly different backgrounds, or is that just at the State schools? (Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you mean by background?)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 05:25:16 PM by wepner »

Beric01

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5517 on: November 24, 2014, 05:30:03 PM »
So I actually have a BS in Business Admin (marketing concentration) at a state school. Supposedly a BS is "more prestigious". All I can really say is we did a little more calculus than normal, more computer/database work, and a fairly challenging statistics course (at least for some students).

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5518 on: November 24, 2014, 06:36:35 PM »
I wanted a husband smarter than I am

why?

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5519 on: November 24, 2014, 07:37:32 PM »
@serpentstooth

I don't know anything about SAT scores but I'm really happy to hear that I got a score that was better than average at your
University despite no studying and only taking the test once. Maybe thats a really petty thing to bring up but I have very little else to hang my hat on from a prestige standpoint.

I definitely didn't say that admissions offices strive to get a proportional representation of the US. I think 18 years of growing up in a totally different culture constitutes a different background, regardless of how much Paddington Bear you guys watched as kids. I wonder if the fact that you met your husband in America is making you take for granted how different your backgrounds really are... How much time have you spent in his hometown or with his childhood friends? As an American with a Japanese spouse living in Japan I feel like there are lots of "common sense" ideas in one country that are totally alien to the other.


Also if you find it difficult (impossible?) to love or respect someone who is less intelligent (as measured by IQ or SAT?) or that would make less money than you, then why do you expect your husband to love and respect you?  Maybe thats a bit harsh but I'm always interested on why its generally acceptable for women to expect (demand?) to marry a smarter/harder working/ richer guy.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5520 on: November 24, 2014, 07:41:10 PM »
I also wanted someone who had substantially higher earning power and was comfortable being the breadwinner.

Wow, that was quite possibly the most sexist thing I've ever heard on this site.  Icky.

Silverado

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5521 on: November 24, 2014, 07:45:00 PM »
I wanted a husband smarter than I am

why?

It was important to me that I respect and admire my long-term partner and I felt this was integral to that. I also wanted someone who had substantially higher earning power and was comfortable being the breadwinner. Whether I'd have made the same choices were my husband hit by a bus tomorrow (I doubt I'd remarry, tbh) is beside the point; those were my priorities the last time I was single, which was at 19.

I sort of think this is finally back on topic of this thread.....but you need to read it as if a CW of her hubby is posting.

Some posts (in this thread recently) are a like a train wreck to me, I know what's coming but can't help but read.



sol

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5522 on: November 24, 2014, 09:27:22 PM »
I feel like if I'd said I was super career oriented and wanted a husband who was willing to be a stay at home dad and make my career the more important you wouldn't be bothered, even if the result is similar.

My disgust has nothing to do with gender, other than that it also happens to conform to stereotype.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vwNcNOTVzY

sol

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5523 on: November 24, 2014, 10:07:10 PM »
So should someone who wants a high powered, time intensive career, place no thought into how this is likely to affect their home and family life? If a person like that wants someone who places a low value on earning money and is interested in being the high earner's support system, is that bad, or is it only bad if the low earner comes up with that idea on their own, without the high earner's suggestion?

You are free to do whatever you like.  I am free to call you out for being a shallow golddigger.

I could divorce my wife and take up with a perky 19 year old with daddy issues.  You would be free to call me a dirty old man.

I'm all for live and let live, but neither of us would expect to publicly proclaim our shallow self-centered behavior without expecting some backlash.  I have merely offered you what you surely already expected, an appropriate label for your 19 year-old self. 

A woman who makes "rich breadwinner" her primary criteria in choosing a mate is no different from a man who makes "big titties" his primary criteria in choosing a mate. 

Maybe you deserve each other?  In that case, I wish you happiness and long life.  Far away from me and my family, as I'm raising children here and I'm trying to protect them from attitudes like yours for as long as possible.

okonumiyaki

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5524 on: November 24, 2014, 10:15:24 PM »
I have a BA and MA in engineering - the university I went to calls all teaching/ exam based degrees BA or MA. 

BSc/ BEng degrees are just so red brick darling... :)

galliver

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5525 on: November 24, 2014, 10:25:08 PM »
Also if you find it difficult (impossible?) to love or respect someone who is less intelligent (as measured by IQ or SAT?) or that would make less money than you, then why do you expect your husband to love and respect you?  Maybe thats a bit harsh but I'm always interested on why its generally acceptable for women to expect (demand?) to marry a smarter/harder working/ richer guy.

Different people want different things, which is how relationships even work. I could never date younger guys, myself. My age or a few years older was fine/great, but I couldn't respect someone younger in the way I needed to so I would feel attracted to and/or love them. And like serpentstooth, I needed someone who was smarter than me. I evaluated it somewhat differently; my bf dropped out of college and I'm doing my PhD, and he's still, fundamentally, more intelligent. It's not important to me that he out-earn me, or that I stay home (in fact, I'm glad he's open to being the stay at home parent, at least ideologically). My requirement has more to do with wanting to have an intellectual conversation and being able to learn from him. And you know what? It's entirely possible that he finds me smarter than him, too. In fact, it's entirely possible that we both are smarter than each other, just in slightly different ways.

So why is it wrong for me to want the opposite? I wanted to be the mother of many children, which is generally incompatible with a career. Pregnancy alone is hard to handle while working, let alone several in realistically quick succession. I wanted to home school. My husband thinks these, along with all my other contributions on the domestic realm are good and interesting and valuable and he respects me for them. He wanted different things in a marriage partner than I did.

It's only sexist if you advocate for this as the natural/expected/correct state of existence for everyone. I think the beauty of feminism is giving everyone all the options, and that includes respecting women who choose to stay home and raise their kids!

I don't find less intelligent people unworthy of respect or admiration in general. But what I find pleasant in a sales clerk or colleague or employee or acquaintance or friend is different than what I wanted in the most significant relationship in my life. Marriage is the one place it's a very good idea to be discriminating, in the old sense of the word.

Totally agreed! Political correctness just doesn't hold in relationships. I mean, I guess maybe if you "do/don't date [race/nationality] guys/girls because they're [stereotypical trait]" that's a douche view to hold. But if it just comes down to "I've just never been attracted to tall/short/hairy/bald/blue eyed/smart/dumb/educated/handy/clumsy/etc" then there's not much that can be done. People just like different traits in each other, and that's awesome!

Cressida

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5526 on: November 24, 2014, 11:08:41 PM »
Also if you find it difficult (impossible?) to love or respect someone who is less intelligent (as measured by IQ or SAT?) or that would make less money than you, then why do you expect your husband to love and respect you?  Maybe thats a bit harsh but I'm always interested on why its generally acceptable for women to expect (demand?) to marry a smarter/harder working/ richer guy.

+10

wepner

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5527 on: November 24, 2014, 11:52:32 PM »
I'm not sure if it's fair for me to single out women as trying to marry up. I notice it way more but maybe that's leftover from when I was really lonely and felt like I wasn't good enough for a lot of women.

Galliver you seem to be describing a relationship where you have roughly the same level of intelligence that's awesome. I'm not trying to attack anyone for valuing intelligence or work ethic or earning power or whatever.

 But it seems problematic to want someone that is "better" than you. Maybe it's hard to argue if older or younger or blue eyes or green eyes or tall or short are "better" but who would prefer to be less intelligent or earn less money for the same work? People never say I want to marry someone who is more intelligent but less physically attractive or more prone to disease than me, is that just implied?

If I'm starting a bakery and I'm looking for a partner to split the profits 50/50 it's perfectly reasonable that I expect them to be good at baking but why should I reasonably expect someone to accept my terms if I demand someone that is "better" at baking than me (assuming I don't specify any areas where I will pick up the slack?)

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5528 on: November 25, 2014, 03:40:20 AM »
With regards to the i7 and SLI GPU's, some possible reasons for the setup
2) Some people donate computational time to scientific research (called folding)
3) It may be a steam box (basically a console for playing PC games on the TV)
4) Bitcoin mining (though, it is getting harder and harder to make money from it).
4) makes no sense for at least 2 years, even 1st and 2nd generation ASICs are now too slow. Just a week a go a Berlin startup said it woudl build a "supercomputer" just for mining. Which is from Bitcoins own point of view a very dumb thing. In short, Bitcoin mining is only profitable anymore for commercial miners.

I prefer gridcoin, which creates blocks without  energy wasted, but determinescoin  output based on:
2) BOINC projects (not just protein folding) - Gridcoin pays you for your work (great if you already doing that, like me) and hopefully moves miners from wasting energy on chainbuilding to donating it to science.

For 3) it also sounds way oversized.

Malaysia41

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5529 on: November 25, 2014, 04:20:17 AM »
What thread is this again?

Caella

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5530 on: November 25, 2014, 05:06:15 AM »
Off topic:

I value "being smart" a LOT on my relationships. It is really a defining point when i choose a life long partner. He should be just as smart as I am. Or smarter in different areas / dumber in others. I think it's very important because it helps us to learn from each other, to have constructive talks about every topic. And his brains is a big part of why i love and respect him so much. This is not being a gold digger, this is wanting to grow in life together.
On the other hand, his ability to make money is borderline irrelevant to me. He is unemployed, is yet to figure out what he wants to work on. I fell in love with computers early in life, so I make good bucks. The money is enough for our little family of 2. If he gets a job, nice. Our journey to FI will just be accelerated. If not, he will still be there for us to joke and talk and love each other without money being a issue.

On topic:

As a part of benefits package, some jobs offer a "debit card" that you can use only on grocery stores. Every month the employer deposits X value (say, R$200.00) on your account, and you use it just like a regular account, but the card is only accepted on select grocery stores. Giving out this card instead of money saves the employer some tax money, so it's very common in Brazil.

I was talking to a ex-coworker (i changed jobs, he stayed) about grocery spending and mentioned that on my new job i don't get this special card, that the  money is deposited directly on my regular checking account, which i love, because i can save money on groceries and spend the money in something else (cough, investments, cough).

He was flabbergasted. Couldn't wrap his mind on how I had money to pay for groceries without the card. Because money on the checking account is spent, and then it wont have enough for groceries at the end of the month.

PloddingInsight

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5531 on: November 25, 2014, 06:45:58 AM »
So should someone who wants a high powered, time intensive career, place no thought into how this is likely to affect their home and family life? If a person like that wants someone who places a low value on earning money and is interested in being the high earner's support system, is that bad, or is it only bad if the low earner comes up with that idea on their own, without the high earner's suggestion?

You are free to do whatever you like.  I am free to call you out for being a shallow golddigger.

I could divorce my wife and take up with a perky 19 year old with daddy issues.  You would be free to call me a dirty old man.

I'm all for live and let live, but neither of us would expect to publicly proclaim our shallow self-centered behavior without expecting some backlash.  I have merely offered you what you surely already expected, an appropriate label for your 19 year-old self. 

A woman who makes "rich breadwinner" her primary criteria in choosing a mate is no different from a man who makes "big titties" his primary criteria in choosing a mate. 

Maybe you deserve each other?  In that case, I wish you happiness and long life.  Far away from me and my family, as I'm raising children here and I'm trying to protect them from attitudes like yours for as long as possible.

Reported.

GuitarStv

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5532 on: November 25, 2014, 06:48:29 AM »
Our college only granted BA, BF and BM degrees. So my husband has BA degrees in Computer Science and Math. It's never been considered a problem or inferior to a BS, as far as I know.



Hmmm . .. a degree in BMs?  I think we can all agree that that is a  . . . shitty degree?


:P

Bachelor of Music, I think.  Much like the earlier BS vs. BA conversation, the BMs looked down on the BA Music majors (of whom I was one).

Yup. My husband has one in Piano Performance. The conservatory gave out BMs in ______ performance, the liberal arts college offered a generic music BA. I don't remember much tension, but if you wanted to do vocal or anything musical that wasn't classical performance, you had to get a BA. Our year had some pretty solid composers, two phenomenal cellists who were good enough to go to the conservatory but had more serious academic interests than musical, a modern composer and a couple women who are now working opera singers.

When I did work at an old age home, bowel movements were referred to as BMs.  Hence the joke about the BM degree.  :P

eyePod

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5533 on: November 25, 2014, 07:20:12 AM »
So should someone who wants a high powered, time intensive career, place no thought into how this is likely to affect their home and family life? If a person like that wants someone who places a low value on earning money and is interested in being the high earner's support system, is that bad, or is it only bad if the low earner comes up with that idea on their own, without the high earner's suggestion?

You are free to do whatever you like.  I am free to call you out for being a shallow golddigger.

I could divorce my wife and take up with a perky 19 year old with daddy issues.  You would be free to call me a dirty old man.

I'm all for live and let live, but neither of us would expect to publicly proclaim our shallow self-centered behavior without expecting some backlash.  I have merely offered you what you surely already expected, an appropriate label for your 19 year-old self. 

A woman who makes "rich breadwinner" her primary criteria in choosing a mate is no different from a man who makes "big titties" his primary criteria in choosing a mate. 

Maybe you deserve each other?  In that case, I wish you happiness and long life.  Far away from me and my family, as I'm raising children here and I'm trying to protect them from attitudes like yours for as long as possible.

Eh, I think you're going a little crazy. She knew she wanted to be able to support her family, it's not like she was asking him to support her jewelry habit. Big difference, and at least it's thought out and wasn't a whim. Not for me, but I get it.

Guizmo

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5534 on: November 25, 2014, 07:56:32 AM »
What thread is this again?

Either the Liberal Arts VS STEM Degrees

or Choosing your partner in college

tipster350

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5535 on: November 25, 2014, 08:00:36 AM »
This off-topic discussion is boring and meaningless. I don't care how smart you think you are, how much better you think your degree is, or how appropriate you think it is to go husband shopping at a selective college.

Can we please get back to rolling our eyes at antimustachian coworkers?

Timmmy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5536 on: November 25, 2014, 08:04:58 AM »
We get paid weekly on Thursday and today we got news that direct deposits won't be hitting our bank accounts until Friday due to the bank holiday.  It's like the world is coming to an end.  Talk about living on a razor thin margin. 

Chranstronaut

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5537 on: November 25, 2014, 08:13:38 AM »
...
Cubemate looks at him and says "I own some company stock but I don't think it's a good idea to put all your eggs in one basket, what if we tank one day?"
...

YAY!  Good for your coworker for saying something.

Two of my colleagues were just accepted for very prestigious promotions and were offered an amount of company stock (current cash value >$30k) as a bonus.  A previous conversation revealed that one of the colleagues is fully invested in his 401k in an index that tracks our company stock.  So... he's only invested in our company and now even more so...  Thank goodness they still have a pension!

frugalnacho

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5538 on: November 25, 2014, 08:15:29 AM »
When I did work at an old age home, bowel movements were referred to as BMs.  Hence the joke about the BM degree.  :P

Maybe i'm the only one that got and appreciated the low brow toilet humor.  Keep 'em comin'.

GardenFun

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5539 on: November 25, 2014, 08:22:18 AM »
Working a multi-week sub-aide assignment at the local school.  Mentioned it to an acquaintance who responded with "perfect timing to use that extra money for Christmas!".

Didn't know what to say because that thought never went through my head.  Christmas is already budgeted and 2/3rds purchased.  Was actually going to use it to open investment accounts for the kids.  Now that's a Christmas present!   

BPA

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5540 on: November 25, 2014, 08:30:43 AM »
What thread is this again?

ha ha ha ha ha

I was about to come here to post about someone at work saying, "I spend a lot of money to look good.  I deserve it.  Facial cream X is expensive but really worth it."  Truthfully she certainly doesn't look like she spends a lot of money on skin care, make up, and clothes.  What a waste of money.

And then I wondered, "Holy shit!  114 pages?"

I'm grateful that where I work the scientists and engineers and humanities and social science majors all exist in harmony respecting each others' disciplines.  I'm reminded of university when the engineering students would crash our wine and cheese parties and brag about how their keggers were better.

I'm glad that in my social circle, we all outgrew that nasty judgment.

wepner

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5541 on: November 25, 2014, 08:32:48 AM »
If anyone wants to talk about whether or not its weird to require a man be richer and smarter than you in order to marry him is weird or not please post in this new thread I created.


http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/what-traitscharacteristics-are-'reasonable'-to-expect-from-a-spouse/msg464100/#msg464100

Elderwood17

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5542 on: November 25, 2014, 08:49:30 AM »
We get paid weekly on Thursday and today we got news that direct deposits won't be hitting our bank accounts until Friday due to the bank holiday.  It's like the world is coming to an end.  Talk about living on a razor thin margin.
We experienced that once due to an IT glitch.  I had co-workers that honestly acted like a guy named Guito was going to be removing thumbs that night as a result.  Strange.

Adventine

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5543 on: November 25, 2014, 08:50:47 AM »
If anyone wants to talk about whether or not its weird to require a man be richer and smarter than you in order to marry him is weird or not please post in this new thread I created.


http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/what-traitscharacteristics-are-'reasonable'-to-expect-from-a-spouse/msg464100/#msg464100
Thank you, wepner. That particular conversation was getting out of hand.

Now, back to Overheard at Work!

I usually bring enough food for lunch, dinner and snacks to the office, and am happy to share with my coworkers. A couple of them have commented, sometimes with great concern, on how expensive my grocery bill must be, since I bring "fancy" food to work (salad, couscous, cream cheese, European bread, chocolate, grapes, cashews, etc.) I always get a kick out of that, because I buy everything at the supermarket, and as much as possible on sale, so all my food costs a fraction of what they think it does.

Apart from that misplaced concern, though, my coworkers are a pretty frugal bunch. Nowhere near the insanity of some people mentioned in this thread. :)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 09:28:16 AM by Adventine »

slugline

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5544 on: November 25, 2014, 09:10:50 AM »
A previous conversation revealed that one of the colleagues is fully invested in his 401k in an index that tracks our company stock.

An index that tracks one stock? What's the difference between that and investing in the shares of stock directly?

GuitarStv

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5545 on: November 25, 2014, 09:25:55 AM »
A previous conversation revealed that one of the colleagues is fully invested in his 401k in an index that tracks our company stock.

An index that tracks one stock? What's the difference between that and investing in the shares of stock directly?

Maybe so you could buy partial shares?

skunkfunk

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5546 on: November 25, 2014, 09:48:26 AM »

IMost of the musicians I know earn part of their money by giving private lessons or working in a music school. Private cello lessons by the way go for 120-130 $/hour here. Money wise the best you could do is to get a permanent position in opera orchestra although not everyone wants because then your schedule doesn't depend from you alone anymore.

You're not paying for that one hour, you're paying for thousands of hours of previously unpaid practice to learn enough for that moment, hours that would not be spent on a different career. Having done both that and engineering, I can tell you that there is far more unpaid practice for an elite musician. As an engineer, I get my practice on the clock.

And regarding the college selection - there may be a big difference in SAT scores between schools, but the "average" is going to be similar in similar programs. I was far above average for my local state school, hence the full ride, but around average for an engineering physics student (and perhaps below average for the ones who got through the extremely rigorous pharmacy program.) The biggest difference is probably the very low graduation rate for those ones that wouldn't have been able to get in at a "better" school.

All anecdotal conclusions wrong or your money back.

Lizzy B.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5547 on: November 25, 2014, 09:53:04 AM »
Not financial, but someone at work described how his daughter, who just got a pair of blue jeans as her birthday gift, wore said jeans for four days in a row.  He was disgusted, even though his daughter had washed them at least once in those four days.  I guess he feels jeans get gross after one wearing.   In the nice, cool fall…  When you’re sitting in a classroom…

I don’t see why this is such a big issue for some people.  I mean, that’s what underwear is for, right?  Just think how grossed-out he’d be if he knew I wore my shirts more than once between washes.  Oh the horror!   


 

frugalnacho

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5548 on: November 25, 2014, 10:11:08 AM »
Jeans are supposed to be washed?

Pooperman

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #5549 on: November 25, 2014, 10:11:58 AM »
Not work, but family. Pitagirl (SO) and I were talking while we went off to the grocery store. Her SIL is a wealth funny things to post here.

1) Pitagirl's Niece wants Air Jordans ($160/pair, she's 7?). SIL went off to get them.

2) SIL calls us "cheap" for hang drying clothes and general frugalness.

3) SIL sees an air mattress (twin) we had out when Pitagirl's friend was over and tells her kids that Pitagirl doesn't love them because they can't stay over yet (waiting on pullout couch to be delivered).

4) SIL and BIL both drive SUVs, have a giant house, etc. Attempting to be Upper Middle Class on a Lower Middle Class income. BIL will not turn the heat on at work (he's a mechanic) because it costs too much, but he's ok with spending $160 on a pair of shoes for his daughter.

5) With all this wastefulness, SIL always comes around with fundraising campaigns so the kids (niece and nephew (9)) can go on soccer trips and other things that could easily be saved for if they could save.

6) MIL pays for their insurance and she'll retire in a year (she's 64). They don't know what they are going to do to pay for insurance! I believe this is health insurance, but it may also be other kinds too. BIL is diabetic on top of all of the other things.

7) MIL also owns the garage where BIL works as a mechanic and she wants to sell it now that she's getting on up in age.

8) SIL attempts to get Pitagirl to buy things for Niece and Nephew that she can't afford but that they want, and gets all annoyed when Pitagirl says no. We're not paying $160 for a pair of shoes when the most expensive shoes I have EVER bought were a $99 pair of dress shoes!

So Pitagirl and I, from our outside vantage point, get a good laugh at their self-inflicted misery and remind ourselves why frugality is so important. We feel bad for what the kids will go through, so I give a little bit of financial information to them once in a while (i.e. gas cost $0.80 when I was your age -> ensuing explanation of inflation).