Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 8895032 times)

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20600 on: July 25, 2018, 06:38:20 AM »
@TheGrimSqueaker nails it!

Can we coin "strategic crisis" as a term? It seems like an oxymoron but the skilled YesBut player makes them happen. They are highly convincing if you are the type to identify the potential for a crisis and then avoid it.

I've been labeling it "voluntary helplessness" but your term may be better.

I think-- but cannot prove-- that it may be an outgrowth of the self-help motivational book concept of focusing on the thing you want, going after it (as in, performing the tasks that produce it as a plausible outcome), and not settling for anything less. Except, of course, for the bit about performing tasks, unless of course it's self-sabotage.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20601 on: July 25, 2018, 07:05:10 AM »
@TheGrimSqueaker nails it!

Can we coin "strategic crisis" as a term? It seems like an oxymoron but the skilled YesBut player makes them happen. They are highly convincing if you are the type to identify the potential for a crisis and then avoid it.

I've been labeling it "voluntary helplessness" but your term may be better.

I think-- but cannot prove-- that it may be an outgrowth of the self-help motivational book concept of focusing on the thing you want, going after it (as in, performing the tasks that produce it as a plausible outcome), and not settling for anything less. Except, of course, for the bit about performing tasks, unless of course it's self-sabotage.

When I was an enabler of this sort of nonsense I was a total sucker for a crisis. There was something about the heightened state of emergency that by-passed my bullshit filters. You know the idea of thinking fast and slow? I might have thinking-in-a-crisis and thinking-well modes.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20602 on: July 25, 2018, 07:19:32 AM »
Problem is, when a normal person has a crisis then it genuinely is a crisis and deserves a crisis level response. When a moocher has a strategic crisis, it kind of is a crisis but it's hard to judge what kind of response it deserves, because it feels weird to give a non-crisis response to a crisis.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20603 on: July 25, 2018, 10:37:31 AM »
Mr. Peloton informed me this morning that he's going to be having the exterior of his house painted. We got on the subject because I have to have mine done next year (for maintenance/upkeep reasons), but his reason?

"I hate the color yellow. Now that the inside is so pretty I'm just ready for a change."

Imagine loving the color blue so much you're willing to shell out $5k on it?!?!

markbike528CBX

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20604 on: July 25, 2018, 12:39:16 PM »
Mr. Peloton informed me this morning that he's going to be having the exterior of his house painted. We got on the subject because I have to have mine done next year (for maintenance/upkeep reasons), but his reason?

"I hate the color yellow. Now that the inside is so pretty I'm just ready for a change."

Imagine loving the color blue so much you're willing to shell out $5k on it?!?!

Only if it is a Hoovaloo http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Hooloovoo, but then there are ethical issues with painting your house with a superintelligent shade of blue.

Disclosure:  My house has previously been blue ( 3d prior owner).

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20605 on: July 25, 2018, 03:00:55 PM »
Problem is, when a normal person has a crisis then it genuinely is a crisis and deserves a crisis level response. When a moocher has a strategic crisis, it kind of is a crisis but it's hard to judge what kind of response it deserves, because it feels weird to give a non-crisis response to a crisis.

Yes, Genius! That is the true evil power of the strategic crisis.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20606 on: July 26, 2018, 12:31:14 AM »
Problem is, when a normal person has a crisis then it genuinely is a crisis and deserves a crisis level response. When a moocher has a strategic crisis, it kind of is a crisis but it's hard to judge what kind of response it deserves, because it feels weird to give a non-crisis response to a crisis.

Yes, Genius! That is the true evil power of the strategic crisis.

I have learned much from you, O Wise One.

Spiffsome

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20607 on: July 26, 2018, 04:23:58 AM »
Stress reduces your ability to think clearly. By creating the crisis, the moocher generates a bunch of stress in a target who genuinely cares about them, reducing the target's ability to think clearly about the long-term issue.

It's even more effective when the crisis is time-sensitive - the landlord will toss me out tomorrow, the bill is due this week, etc. It works the same way as the 'one day only' sales technique - rush someone into making an impulsive decision before they can calm down and think things through.

frugalecon

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20608 on: July 26, 2018, 07:02:18 AM »
Not direct co-workers of mine, but a group of people I semi-regularly hang out with who all work at the same hospital:

Part 1 -
CW1: I can't save at the moment. My rent is already over half my salary!
CW2: Then why do you live in such an expensive place?!
CW1: Well, I have cats that I want to give sufficient space (fair enough) plus it's harder to find a rental with a cat.
CW2: But you have a whole house, couldn't you take a flatmate for the 2nd bedroom?
CW1: I've had a bad experience with a flatmate before so I prefer living alone.

Part 2 -
Me: But still, after your rent there's $800 left, where does that go?
CW1: Well, taking care of the cats. And I spend a lot on food too.
Me: Like, how much? Just trying to help you here as it sounds like you're stressed about money..
CW1: Like $50/week?
Me: That's double my spend..
CW1: But I eat vegetarian! It's more expensive
Me: So do I..

It kept on going like this.. all of that while consuming fancy $5 special beers in a bar. Note: our salaries are low so saving $50/month on groceries would already be a huge deal for her. I genuinely wanted to help her as she sounded stressed about money, but she kept coming up with excuses on why she couldn't go to a cheaper gym, eat cheaper food, get a cheaper house or whatever expense I mentioned.
She plays a good game of YesBut!

YesBut is also a strategy to make sure that the player gets exactly what s/he wants at someone else's expense.

A skilled YesBut player has an unreasonable goal. It doesn't matter what the goal is: maybe it's to live rent-free in someone else's home, or maybe it's to enjoy a higher standard of living than the player's productivity and income justify. The game requires two people: the YesBut player, and the designated "rescuer". It frequently takes months or even years to come to fruition.

The game works like this: the player systematically paints himself or herself into a corner by rejecting anything less than the unreasonable goal, and then creates an objectively predictable crisis. The player keeps it up until a crisis occurs, and the designated rescuer (possibly you) has no choice except to provide the unreasonable goal, or allow the player to experience something truly terrible such as homelessness or bankruptcy. It's a manipulation play that gradually builds up a relationship between the player and the rescuer. Here's an example.

Player: Can I move in with you?
Rescuer: No. You trash the place and let junkies in. Move in with that friend you think so highly of.
Player: Yes, but she does illegal drugs and wants me to do them too!
Rescuer: That's the lifestyle you like, though. You love being around druggies. What about your auntie?
Player: Yes, but she's asking me to pay rent!
Rescuer: So move in with your boyfriend.
Player: Yes, but I've got an order of protection because of the domestic.
Rescuer: So move in with your older brother who's willing to let you stay there in exchange for housework.
Player: Yes, but one of his friends stole everything out of my room!
Rescuer: All right. Here's the contact information of someone who's renting out a room. It's along a major bus route, it's within your budget, it's a clean drug-free household, and you can afford it based on your income.
Player: Yes, but I don't want to live with someone I don't know.
Rescuer: The people you know are mostly low-lifes.
Player: Yes, but I can't afford an apartment on my own.
Rescuer: Sell your car and take the bus to work.
Player: Yes, but I need my car and anyway it's in the shop.
Rescuer: I tell you what. You find someone who's a responsible roommate, so that the two of you earn enough money to qualify for an apartment, and I'll give you the first month's rent and the damage deposit up to $X.
Player: Yes, but I'd rather use the $X for car repairs.
(time passes)
Player: Waaah! The money is all gone and I have nowhere to live! Can I move in with you?
Rescuer: Better go where you'll be able to work your way through. You're going to have to learn to be decent to somebody. Your brother offered to put you up.
(a week later)
Player: I got in a fight with my brother and I'm going to be homeless! Can I move in with you?

The player gets chance after chance to improve his or her situation, but turns up his or her nose at every possible solution except the one his or her heart is set on.

Wow, this is pure gold. I would say that it should be reproduced and taught in school so that people could learn to protect themselves, but budding YesBut players might use it to hone their game.

TartanTallulah

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20609 on: July 26, 2018, 09:17:40 AM »
"You're lucky," said a colleague when I handed in my notice recently. "I won't be able to retire until I'm in my late sixties, with university fees to pay."

This'll be the colleague about whom I joke that the only reason she has a job is so that she's got an address to which Amazon can send parcels without her husband finding out, for she certainly doesn't come here to work.

It's her husband's birthday soon. He doesn't want a fuss. So she's only organised a small celebration. Just a little marquee for a few guests, outside catering, a solo singer and a band.

I suspect priorities rather than luck.

SweetRedWine

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20610 on: July 26, 2018, 09:43:43 AM »
Not direct co-workers of mine, but a group of people I semi-regularly hang out with who all work at the same hospital:

Part 1 -
CW1: I can't save at the moment. My rent is already over half my salary!
CW2: Then why do you live in such an expensive place?!
CW1: Well, I have cats that I want to give sufficient space (fair enough) plus it's harder to find a rental with a cat.
CW2: But you have a whole house, couldn't you take a flatmate for the 2nd bedroom?
CW1: I've had a bad experience with a flatmate before so I prefer living alone.

Part 2 -
Me: But still, after your rent there's $800 left, where does that go?
CW1: Well, taking care of the cats. And I spend a lot on food too.
Me: Like, how much? Just trying to help you here as it sounds like you're stressed about money..
CW1: Like $50/week?
Me: That's double my spend..
CW1: But I eat vegetarian! It's more expensive
Me: So do I..

It kept on going like this.. all of that while consuming fancy $5 special beers in a bar. Note: our salaries are low so saving $50/month on groceries would already be a huge deal for her. I genuinely wanted to help her as she sounded stressed about money, but she kept coming up with excuses on why she couldn't go to a cheaper gym, eat cheaper food, get a cheaper house or whatever expense I mentioned.
She plays a good game of YesBut!

YesBut is also a strategy to make sure that the player gets exactly what s/he wants at someone else's expense.

A skilled YesBut player has an unreasonable goal. It doesn't matter what the goal is: maybe it's to live rent-free in someone else's home, or maybe it's to enjoy a higher standard of living than the player's productivity and income justify. The game requires two people: the YesBut player, and the designated "rescuer". It frequently takes months or even years to come to fruition.

The game works like this: the player systematically paints himself or herself into a corner by rejecting anything less than the unreasonable goal, and then creates an objectively predictable crisis. The player keeps it up until a crisis occurs, and the designated rescuer (possibly you) has no choice except to provide the unreasonable goal, or allow the player to experience something truly terrible such as homelessness or bankruptcy. It's a manipulation play that gradually builds up a relationship between the player and the rescuer. Here's an example.

Player: Can I move in with you?
Rescuer: No. You trash the place and let junkies in. Move in with that friend you think so highly of.
Player: Yes, but she does illegal drugs and wants me to do them too!
Rescuer: That's the lifestyle you like, though. You love being around druggies. What about your auntie?
Player: Yes, but she's asking me to pay rent!
Rescuer: So move in with your boyfriend.
Player: Yes, but I've got an order of protection because of the domestic.
Rescuer: So move in with your older brother who's willing to let you stay there in exchange for housework.
Player: Yes, but one of his friends stole everything out of my room!
Rescuer: All right. Here's the contact information of someone who's renting out a room. It's along a major bus route, it's within your budget, it's a clean drug-free household, and you can afford it based on your income.
Player: Yes, but I don't want to live with someone I don't know.
Rescuer: The people you know are mostly low-lifes.
Player: Yes, but I can't afford an apartment on my own.
Rescuer: Sell your car and take the bus to work.
Player: Yes, but I need my car and anyway it's in the shop.
Rescuer: I tell you what. You find someone who's a responsible roommate, so that the two of you earn enough money to qualify for an apartment, and I'll give you the first month's rent and the damage deposit up to $X.
Player: Yes, but I'd rather use the $X for car repairs.
(time passes)
Player: Waaah! The money is all gone and I have nowhere to live! Can I move in with you?
Rescuer: Better go where you'll be able to work your way through. You're going to have to learn to be decent to somebody. Your brother offered to put you up.
(a week later)
Player: I got in a fight with my brother and I'm going to be homeless! Can I move in with you?

The player gets chance after chance to improve his or her situation, but turns up his or her nose at every possible solution except the one his or her heart is set on.

Wow, this is pure gold. I would say that it should be reproduced and taught in school so that people could learn to protect themselves, but budding YesBut players might use it to hone their game.

Definitely second this!  This dialogue should be used for defensive purposes only. 

Sibley

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20611 on: July 26, 2018, 10:36:24 AM »
Not direct co-workers of mine, but a group of people I semi-regularly hang out with who all work at the same hospital:

Part 1 -
CW1: I can't save at the moment. My rent is already over half my salary!
CW2: Then why do you live in such an expensive place?!
CW1: Well, I have cats that I want to give sufficient space (fair enough) plus it's harder to find a rental with a cat.
CW2: But you have a whole house, couldn't you take a flatmate for the 2nd bedroom?
CW1: I've had a bad experience with a flatmate before so I prefer living alone.

Part 2 -
Me: But still, after your rent there's $800 left, where does that go?
CW1: Well, taking care of the cats. And I spend a lot on food too.
Me: Like, how much? Just trying to help you here as it sounds like you're stressed about money..
CW1: Like $50/week?
Me: That's double my spend..
CW1: But I eat vegetarian! It's more expensive
Me: So do I..

It kept on going like this.. all of that while consuming fancy $5 special beers in a bar. Note: our salaries are low so saving $50/month on groceries would already be a huge deal for her. I genuinely wanted to help her as she sounded stressed about money, but she kept coming up with excuses on why she couldn't go to a cheaper gym, eat cheaper food, get a cheaper house or whatever expense I mentioned.
She plays a good game of YesBut!

YesBut is also a strategy to make sure that the player gets exactly what s/he wants at someone else's expense.

A skilled YesBut player has an unreasonable goal. It doesn't matter what the goal is: maybe it's to live rent-free in someone else's home, or maybe it's to enjoy a higher standard of living than the player's productivity and income justify. The game requires two people: the YesBut player, and the designated "rescuer". It frequently takes months or even years to come to fruition.

The game works like this: the player systematically paints himself or herself into a corner by rejecting anything less than the unreasonable goal, and then creates an objectively predictable crisis. The player keeps it up until a crisis occurs, and the designated rescuer (possibly you) has no choice except to provide the unreasonable goal, or allow the player to experience something truly terrible such as homelessness or bankruptcy. It's a manipulation play that gradually builds up a relationship between the player and the rescuer. Here's an example.

Player: Can I move in with you?
Rescuer: No. You trash the place and let junkies in. Move in with that friend you think so highly of.
Player: Yes, but she does illegal drugs and wants me to do them too!
Rescuer: That's the lifestyle you like, though. You love being around druggies. What about your auntie?
Player: Yes, but she's asking me to pay rent!
Rescuer: So move in with your boyfriend.
Player: Yes, but I've got an order of protection because of the domestic.
Rescuer: So move in with your older brother who's willing to let you stay there in exchange for housework.
Player: Yes, but one of his friends stole everything out of my room!
Rescuer: All right. Here's the contact information of someone who's renting out a room. It's along a major bus route, it's within your budget, it's a clean drug-free household, and you can afford it based on your income.
Player: Yes, but I don't want to live with someone I don't know.
Rescuer: The people you know are mostly low-lifes.
Player: Yes, but I can't afford an apartment on my own.
Rescuer: Sell your car and take the bus to work.
Player: Yes, but I need my car and anyway it's in the shop.
Rescuer: I tell you what. You find someone who's a responsible roommate, so that the two of you earn enough money to qualify for an apartment, and I'll give you the first month's rent and the damage deposit up to $X.
Player: Yes, but I'd rather use the $X for car repairs.
(time passes)
Player: Waaah! The money is all gone and I have nowhere to live! Can I move in with you?
Rescuer: Better go where you'll be able to work your way through. You're going to have to learn to be decent to somebody. Your brother offered to put you up.
(a week later)
Player: I got in a fight with my brother and I'm going to be homeless! Can I move in with you?

The player gets chance after chance to improve his or her situation, but turns up his or her nose at every possible solution except the one his or her heart is set on.

Wow, this is pure gold. I would say that it should be reproduced and taught in school so that people could learn to protect themselves, but budding YesBut players might use it to hone their game.

Definitely second this!  This dialogue should be used for defensive purposes only.

Rescuer is doing a bunch of unpaid labor there, which I object to. The answer is, and always is, "No." Might say it a million times, but "No." Puts the problem back where it belongs: with Player.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20612 on: July 26, 2018, 12:47:40 PM »
Not direct co-workers of mine, but a group of people I semi-regularly hang out with who all work at the same hospital:

Part 1 -
CW1: I can't save at the moment. My rent is already over half my salary!
CW2: Then why do you live in such an expensive place?!
CW1: Well, I have cats that I want to give sufficient space (fair enough) plus it's harder to find a rental with a cat.
CW2: But you have a whole house, couldn't you take a flatmate for the 2nd bedroom?
CW1: I've had a bad experience with a flatmate before so I prefer living alone.

Part 2 -
Me: But still, after your rent there's $800 left, where does that go?
CW1: Well, taking care of the cats. And I spend a lot on food too.
Me: Like, how much? Just trying to help you here as it sounds like you're stressed about money..
CW1: Like $50/week?
Me: That's double my spend..
CW1: But I eat vegetarian! It's more expensive
Me: So do I..

It kept on going like this.. all of that while consuming fancy $5 special beers in a bar. Note: our salaries are low so saving $50/month on groceries would already be a huge deal for her. I genuinely wanted to help her as she sounded stressed about money, but she kept coming up with excuses on why she couldn't go to a cheaper gym, eat cheaper food, get a cheaper house or whatever expense I mentioned.
She plays a good game of YesBut!

YesBut is also a strategy to make sure that the player gets exactly what s/he wants at someone else's expense.

A skilled YesBut player has an unreasonable goal. It doesn't matter what the goal is: maybe it's to live rent-free in someone else's home, or maybe it's to enjoy a higher standard of living than the player's productivity and income justify. The game requires two people: the YesBut player, and the designated "rescuer". It frequently takes months or even years to come to fruition.

The game works like this: the player systematically paints himself or herself into a corner by rejecting anything less than the unreasonable goal, and then creates an objectively predictable crisis. The player keeps it up until a crisis occurs, and the designated rescuer (possibly you) has no choice except to provide the unreasonable goal, or allow the player to experience something truly terrible such as homelessness or bankruptcy. It's a manipulation play that gradually builds up a relationship between the player and the rescuer. Here's an example.

Player: Can I move in with you?
Rescuer: No. You trash the place and let junkies in. Move in with that friend you think so highly of.
Player: Yes, but she does illegal drugs and wants me to do them too!
Rescuer: That's the lifestyle you like, though. You love being around druggies. What about your auntie?
Player: Yes, but she's asking me to pay rent!
Rescuer: So move in with your boyfriend.
Player: Yes, but I've got an order of protection because of the domestic.
Rescuer: So move in with your older brother who's willing to let you stay there in exchange for housework.
Player: Yes, but one of his friends stole everything out of my room!
Rescuer: All right. Here's the contact information of someone who's renting out a room. It's along a major bus route, it's within your budget, it's a clean drug-free household, and you can afford it based on your income.
Player: Yes, but I don't want to live with someone I don't know.
Rescuer: The people you know are mostly low-lifes.
Player: Yes, but I can't afford an apartment on my own.
Rescuer: Sell your car and take the bus to work.
Player: Yes, but I need my car and anyway it's in the shop.
Rescuer: I tell you what. You find someone who's a responsible roommate, so that the two of you earn enough money to qualify for an apartment, and I'll give you the first month's rent and the damage deposit up to $X.
Player: Yes, but I'd rather use the $X for car repairs.
(time passes)
Player: Waaah! The money is all gone and I have nowhere to live! Can I move in with you?
Rescuer: Better go where you'll be able to work your way through. You're going to have to learn to be decent to somebody. Your brother offered to put you up.
(a week later)
Player: I got in a fight with my brother and I'm going to be homeless! Can I move in with you?

The player gets chance after chance to improve his or her situation, but turns up his or her nose at every possible solution except the one his or her heart is set on.

Wow, this is pure gold. I would say that it should be reproduced and taught in school so that people could learn to protect themselves, but budding YesBut players might use it to hone their game.

Definitely second this!  This dialogue should be used for defensive purposes only.

Rescuer is doing a bunch of unpaid labor there, which I object to. The answer is, and always is, "No." Might say it a million times, but "No." Puts the problem back where it belongs: with Player.

That is the only successful response. It seems to become difficult to respond that way when Rescuer has some kind of perceived or actual duty to Player.

Imma

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20613 on: July 26, 2018, 02:53:49 PM »

Part 2 -
Me: But still, after your rent there's $800 left, where does that go?
CW1: Well, taking care of the cats. And I spend a lot on food too.
Me: Like, how much? Just trying to help you here as it sounds like you're stressed about money..
CW1: Like $50/week?
Me: That's double my spend..
CW1: But I eat vegetarian! It's more expensive
Me: So do I..


Oooh I know someone like that co-worker :( She eats with her boyfriend at Happy Italy 3-4 times a week because that's "cheaper than cooking, because we're vegetarians and that's expensive" . 7,50 + a drink is cheap for a restaurant, but seriously, for Ä20 you can make veggie pasta for the entire street if you want. But of course then you'd have to cook and all.

Freedomin5

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20614 on: July 26, 2018, 09:15:09 PM »
Caught up with a few ex-coworkers whom I havenít seen for five years this past week. One of them changed jobs for a 30% raise. Their gross income is now $100k per year. Good, right? Well, they are also:

- Sending their kid to private school to the tune of $15-18k per year
- living in a $500k home with accompanying mortgage
- eating organic everything
- driving a pretty new SUV

They also want to have another kid and were talking about needing to upgrade to a larger home. Their complaint was that they could not afford a larger home in their desired area. So while they are looking for said potentially non-existent home in their price range, they are currently actively trying to have a kid.

I honestly donít know how they are able to cover their expenses each month.


Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20615 on: July 26, 2018, 10:49:08 PM »
Today outside the supermarket with my two kids we got bailed up by a nice young woman selling for a company called Eat Fresh, or something. Apparently, they send you a box with a week's worth of food chopped up and ready to go in the pan and a sheet with a recipe on it. In this way you get to pay more for fresh food and recipes than you would normally, but unlike paying more at a restaurant you still have to cook and do the dishes afterwards.

People do apparently sign up for it.

barbaz

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20616 on: July 27, 2018, 01:13:41 AM »
That is the only successful response. It seems to become difficult to respond that way when Rescuer has some kind of perceived or actual duty to Player.
I suspect Player is a certain lost cause you talked about before?

Alfred J Quack

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20617 on: July 27, 2018, 07:16:24 AM »
Today outside the supermarket with my two kids we got bailed up by a nice young woman selling for a company called Eat Fresh, or something. Apparently, they send you a box with a week's worth of food chopped up and ready to go in the pan and a sheet with a recipe on it. In this way you get to pay more for fresh food and recipes than you would normally, but unlike paying more at a restaurant you still have to cook and do the dishes afterwards.

People do apparently sign up for it.
We have several such suppliers over here. They are targeting people who don't want to cut up the veggies or feel that cooking by itself is a hassle. Basically this is the same reason people buy pre-diced veggies in the supermarket but with the added bonus that they don't have to shop for it themselves.
The fact that they have zero control on quality or freshness is, in my opinion, a bit disturbing.

In the meantime, it's 38 degrees C over here (that's extreme.for over here), so I'm not cooking either. Luckily we have cold salad with garden vegetables! The tomatoes are lovely and much more tasty than the shop bought ones :D

I have bought a mobile airco though to keep the bedrooms from overheating (second hand, only one month old but 70Ä under the shop price). It's set to maintain the current indoor temp and not lower it (which is around 27C now). It's doing a pretty decent job too. Power usage is mostly compensated by the solar panels.

JAYSLOL

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20618 on: July 27, 2018, 08:13:33 AM »
Had a weird Anti-Mustachian/Lazy-ass person encounter at work yesterday.  Was doing a small construction project in the parking lot of a busy little shopping centre.  I noticed that the area I coned-off (2 parking spaces, now full of tools and supplies) kept collecting empty shopping carts when I wasn't looking, which I would then have to put away because they were in my way.  8 or 10 moved carts later I had the pleasure of watching it in action.  A lady parked next to the area I was working (in an old Dodge Durango, figures) and walked into the liquor store, 10 min later she came out with a shopping cart of booze and loaded it into the back of the Durango and left the cart in my area and proceeded to go into the grocery store, of course 10 min later she comes out with ANOTHER cart, loads her stuff into the Durango Dump Truck and leaves her second cart next to her other one right in my way.  Thanks lady.  So I went up to her and said "Hi, do you mind putting the carts back, because otherwise I have to do it and I've already had to move like 8 or 10 carts out of my way today". She didn't say anything but moved the liquor store cart all of like 30' back to where it belongs and then proceeded to take a 10 min smoke break.  She then got in the Dump Truck and drove off without putting away the second cart when I was off in another area.  I hate people. 

Jouer

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20619 on: July 27, 2018, 08:22:21 AM »
Had a weird Anti-Mustachian/Lazy-ass person encounter at work yesterday.  Was doing a small construction project in the parking lot of a busy little shopping centre.  I noticed that the area I coned-off (2 parking spaces, now full of tools and supplies) kept collecting empty shopping carts when I wasn't looking, which I would then have to put away because they were in my way.  8 or 10 moved carts later I had the pleasure of watching it in action.  A lady parked next to the area I was working (in an old Dodge Durango, figures) and walked into the liquor store, 10 min later she came out with a shopping cart of booze and loaded it into the back of the Durango and left the cart in my area and proceeded to go into the grocery store, of course 10 min later she comes out with ANOTHER cart, loads her stuff into the Durango Dump Truck and leaves her second cart next to her other one right in my way.  Thanks lady.  So I went up to her and said "Hi, do you mind putting the carts back, because otherwise I have to do it and I've already had to move like 8 or 10 carts out of my way today". She didn't say anything but moved the liquor store cart all of like 30' back to where it belongs and then proceeded to take a 10 min smoke break.  She then got in the Dump Truck and drove off without putting away the second cart when I was off in another area.  I hate people.

People not putting their carts away kills me. More than once I've given someone shit for leaving their cart either free in the parking lot or next to the cart storage area inside (like, in the lobby but not slid into the back of the next cart). Seriously, how much energy does it take to neatly put your cart back in the bullpen?

Slow&Steady

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20620 on: July 27, 2018, 09:25:15 AM »
There is a gentleman that is in the office next to me and rumor has spread that he will be leaving in December, and not to a new job.  He looks to me to be in his 50s, maybe early 50s.  I of course think this is an awesome sign of FIRE but am not sure because he is a very private guy. 

Most of my other coworkers are completely baffled by this.  I have heard that some of them even made fun of him when he started working here because he brings his lunch everyday and uses washable dishes to eat his lunch. 

I am dying to ask him if he is retiring early and give him a huge congrats but he is so private that I am pretty sure that would be too much for him.   
What've you got to lose?  I'd *love* to hear if he's secretly built up a stache.

His manager confirmed that he was retiring today during lunch, the speculation is that he is 57 (I think he looks closer to 50).  I believe his manager is older than him, managers statement was "Yes ___ is retiring at the end of the year, some people save money better than others".

Here is your script:

Slow&Steady: "Hello Co-worker X, congratulations on your retirement.  BTW, what is your mustache code-name?"
Co-Worker X: Either
A.) Puzzled look, scurries away without response.
or
B.) "I'm so glad you asked, my MMM forum handle is SuperSecretStealthMustachedNinja." And you have a new friend for life!

Apparently I am allowed to know this now, co-worker is retiring at 55!  I told him "Good job, I have heard a lot of people say you are lucky.  I know it isn't luck it was work, congrats!"

Pretty sure he is not on MMM, he is planning to use 72t but did not know that he is allowed to pull his Roth contributions (not earnings) without penalty.

CptCool

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20621 on: July 27, 2018, 12:56:16 PM »
Had a weird Anti-Mustachian/Lazy-ass person encounter at work yesterday.  Was doing a small construction project in the parking lot of a busy little shopping centre.  I noticed that the area I coned-off (2 parking spaces, now full of tools and supplies) kept collecting empty shopping carts when I wasn't looking, which I would then have to put away because they were in my way.  8 or 10 moved carts later I had the pleasure of watching it in action.  A lady parked next to the area I was working (in an old Dodge Durango, figures) and walked into the liquor store, 10 min later she came out with a shopping cart of booze and loaded it into the back of the Durango and left the cart in my area and proceeded to go into the grocery store, of course 10 min later she comes out with ANOTHER cart, loads her stuff into the Durango Dump Truck and leaves her second cart next to her other one right in my way.  Thanks lady.  So I went up to her and said "Hi, do you mind putting the carts back, because otherwise I have to do it and I've already had to move like 8 or 10 carts out of my way today". She didn't say anything but moved the liquor store cart all of like 30' back to where it belongs and then proceeded to take a 10 min smoke break.  She then got in the Dump Truck and drove off without putting away the second cart when I was off in another area.  I hate people.

Next time keep some zip ties handy and tie it to their door handle

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20622 on: July 27, 2018, 01:51:16 PM »
Had a weird Anti-Mustachian/Lazy-ass person encounter at work yesterday.  Was doing a small construction project in the parking lot of a busy little shopping centre.  I noticed that the area I coned-off (2 parking spaces, now full of tools and supplies) kept collecting empty shopping carts when I wasn't looking, which I would then have to put away because they were in my way.  8 or 10 moved carts later I had the pleasure of watching it in action.  A lady parked next to the area I was working (in an old Dodge Durango, figures) and walked into the liquor store, 10 min later she came out with a shopping cart of booze and loaded it into the back of the Durango and left the cart in my area and proceeded to go into the grocery store, of course 10 min later she comes out with ANOTHER cart, loads her stuff into the Durango Dump Truck and leaves her second cart next to her other one right in my way.  Thanks lady.  So I went up to her and said "Hi, do you mind putting the carts back, because otherwise I have to do it and I've already had to move like 8 or 10 carts out of my way today". She didn't say anything but moved the liquor store cart all of like 30' back to where it belongs and then proceeded to take a 10 min smoke break.  She then got in the Dump Truck and drove off without putting away the second cart when I was off in another area.  I hate people.

People not putting their carts away kills me. More than once I've given someone shit for leaving their cart either free in the parking lot or next to the cart storage area inside (like, in the lobby but not slid into the back of the next cart). Seriously, how much energy does it take to neatly put your cart back in the bullpen?

Totally a pet peeve.  I only saw it happen once and I definitely gave some some shit but it was ineffective.  Lady played dumb... like oh do you want the cart?  No, just don't leave it in a friggin parking space.  I think they should bring back the cart deposits.

FIRE@50

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20623 on: July 27, 2018, 01:55:18 PM »
Shop at Aldi

10dollarsatatime

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20624 on: July 27, 2018, 03:29:14 PM »
Background:  Employee from another department is retiring.  He's worked here FOREVER.

Conversation had during my department's staff meeting:

Boss: Guy is retiring.  His reception is Wednesday.  ... I didn't think he was old enough to retire.
CW:  He's not 65.  I've known him forever.
Boss:  You can't retire before 65.
Me:  That's not necessarily true, boss.
Boss:  I guess you can start collecting your pension at 62.
CW:  I think he's only 58.
Boss:  I wonder why he's retiring?
CW:  He's got 30 years.
Boss:  But his pension doesn't kick in for at least 4 more years.
Me:  He probably saved $$ in his 457, so he can bridge the gap.  That's basically why that account exists.
Boss: ...

Boss turns 65 in a couple of years.  I'm not convinced he'll retire then.  He has some silly ideas when it comes to money.

Lyngi

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20625 on: July 27, 2018, 10:05:27 PM »
       Had a conversation with a coworker(1) today.  Back during the housing crisis CW1 was in the process of buying a big, beautiful house.  We got to see pictures of it and I was so envious, it was amazing and perfect.   We have the same position and so made the same amount of money.  I just couldn't figure out what was wrong with me.  Why couldn't I find such a great house to buy.   Fast forward 10 or so years and I just found out that coworker has lost that big house and a lot more. The large income came with a large lifestyle creep that was unsustainable. 
      Later on the coworkers in my group were talking about CW1's situation and were very surprised.  CW1 was working a lot and was making a lot of money.  I told them how I had coveted the house and how I thought I was doing something wrong. 

Coworker G said, "NO, you were doing something right! And your house is paid off"
Coworker M jokingly said, "You must be a millionaire." 
Me, "Why yes. Yes I am"

CW1's story is tragic.  You just don't know what is going on with the Joneses and life is not a competition.



LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20626 on: July 28, 2018, 12:30:06 AM »
Talking about housing bubble, this one looks like it is over. Just read yesterday that all numbers (price increase, amount of houses bought etc). are suddenly at a long time low.
Together with the other little things it may be the first real sign of the next crash.

Exited?

merula

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20627 on: July 28, 2018, 06:21:44 AM »
Talking about housing bubble, this one looks like it is over. Just read yesterday that all numbers (price increase, amount of houses bought etc). are suddenly at a long time low.
Together with the other little things it may be the first real sign of the next crash.

Exited?

Is that nationally or in a particular market?

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20628 on: July 28, 2018, 10:13:47 AM »
Talking about housing bubble, this one looks like it is over. Just read yesterday that all numbers (price increase, amount of houses bought etc). are suddenly at a long time low.
Together with the other little things it may be the first real sign of the next crash.

Exited?

Is that nationally or in a particular market?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-26/american-housing-market-is-showing-signs-of-running-out-of-steam

tralfamadorian

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20629 on: July 28, 2018, 11:23:04 AM »
Talking about housing bubble, this one looks like it is over. Just read yesterday that all numbers (price increase, amount of houses bought etc). are suddenly at a long time low.
Together with the other little things it may be the first real sign of the next crash.

Exited?

Is that nationally or in a particular market?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-26/american-housing-market-is-showing-signs-of-running-out-of-steam

I'm on the online newsletter lists for a bunch of realtors in my farm markets. Most of full of shit but a couple have proven to be unicorns and are honest with what they believe to be happening in their markets. Both have called what they believe to be the start of the slowdown though the statistics do not bear that out yet. One's reasoning was that he was seeing a bunch of buyer's agent bonuses popping up- mostly $5k with a couple $10k- and a free cruise for a completed purchase for a buyer. Both the $10k agent bonus and the silly buyer's carrots, he had not seen since 2007.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20630 on: July 28, 2018, 03:54:51 PM »
The market slowdown is happening in Australia, too. Interest rates are finally creeping back up, but also there's been a banking royal commission which has exposed a lot of dodgy behaviour from the banks, so that many of them are tightening things up in anticipation of more regulatory oversight in the future.

I don't see the market crashing here, like prices halving in a year or two or something. So long as an economy is growing generally, there is spare cash floating around to invest. In a manufacturing economy this cash can go to investing in manufacturing businesses, but because of the free market workers in Australia have to compete with unpaid child labour in the Congo (coltan mining) or widget makers on $5 a day locked in their dormitories at night in China, so mining is hugely automated and manufacturing fizzling out here. We have a service economy, and that does need investment, but since a factory plant costs more to set up than a restaurant or gym or office, there's just not the same need for capital investment in a service economy as there is in a manufacturing one. So where does the spare cash go? Real estate.

Obviously rising interest rates will mean less spare cash floating around, both since fewer people will borrow and more will be inclined to just save their cash. But ultimately Australia's population is growing, so unless more of us do house-sharing the demand for more housing will remain, and there's not really anywhere else for people to put spare cash except savings accounts. Unless of course they send their money overseas...

So I see prices levelling out and dropping a bit, but not crashing. The only prospect of a crash is if there's a general recession. But in that case we have other problems regardless of house prices.

Raymond Reddington

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20631 on: July 28, 2018, 04:41:22 PM »
I don't see a crash here either. I see stagnation in overprice markets, and lenders' (and regulators') reactions to that stagnation will determine where we go from here. If the market is allowed to run wild trying to get real estate activity back to "normal" levels, then the risky behavior that precedes a crash will undoubtedly return within 5 years of the start of that behavior. If regulators and lenders generally leave things alone, we will see negative growth in saturated markets, and a slightly higher than offsetting growth in underappreciated markets that will maintain slow positive growth in median prices overall, which may actually lag inflation enough to be significant enough to encourage more homeownership over time. Of course, what's going to be interesting is when the big bomb hits, which is the upcoming deaths of millions of baby boomers creating a glut of inherited homes/supply which will likely loosen things up in the next 10-30 years...especially if many outlive their retirement savings as predicted and have to take reverse mortgages.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20632 on: July 28, 2018, 06:08:20 PM »
Immigration is the other aspect, Raymond. If both the US and Australia continue to have lots of migration, particularly skilled migration, that helps keep demand for (purchased) housing high despite the boomers dropping off.

More significant would be any change in expectations. One of the reasons for the change in price which people don't talk about much is size of house and household. In 1950 the average new house in Australia was 100m2 with 3.6 people, now it's 231m2 with 2.6 people. So we've gone from 28 to 89m2 per person. So while house prices relative to income have doubled, house sizes and area per person have more than doubled.

If people changed to wanting smaller places then prices could drop somewhat; but again, they wouldn't crash, since such cultural changes tend to be slow and owners would raise prices to compensate, so for example here in Australia the house on the "quarter-acre block" (usually in fact 600-800m2) is often subdivided into 3 dwellings, but these 3 dwellings are each 2/3 the price of the old one, not 1/3.

bklyncyclist

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20633 on: July 28, 2018, 08:00:24 PM »
Had dinner with a family friend.

I have never heard this particular reason for not contributing a single $ into any retirement accounts. Or to think of it, any accounts.
The plan is to end up penniless... by design... to qualify for Medicaid.
He is 55 with 0 retirement savings and no net worth to speak of.

I was so shocked, I didn't have a response.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 08:40:57 PM by bklyncyclist »

Sibley

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20634 on: July 28, 2018, 08:14:52 PM »
Had dinner with a family friend.

I have never heard this particular reason for not contributing a single $ into any retirement accounts. Or to think of it, any accounts.
The plan is to end up penniless... by design... to qualify for Medicare.
He is 55 with 0 retirement savings and no net worth to speak of.

I was so shocked, I didn't have a response.

Are you sure he said Medicare? Not Medicaid? Because if he said Medicare, and meant Medicare, then he's got much bigger issues. Like lack of general intelligence.

bklyncyclist

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20635 on: July 28, 2018, 08:33:59 PM »
Correction... He did say Medicaid...
Thank you Sibley for pointing out the error.

Primm

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20636 on: July 29, 2018, 07:38:27 AM »
Today outside the supermarket with my two kids we got bailed up by a nice young woman selling for a company called Eat Fresh, or something. Apparently, they send you a box with a week's worth of food chopped up and ready to go in the pan and a sheet with a recipe on it. In this way you get to pay more for fresh food and recipes than you would normally, but unlike paying more at a restaurant you still have to cook and do the dishes afterwards.

People do apparently sign up for it.

Hello Fresh. It doesn't come chopped up either, you have to do that yourself.

I've used it twice. The first time I got a free delivery courtesy of a friend who signed up (clearly not Mustachian). It was ok I guess, but not really my thing. I made sure I cancelled before the second week, and removed my card details from the system.

So then my email was in the system, and after a month or so I started getting the discount offers. I got the second box when it was down to "Hey, try us again for $20 for a week's worth of groceries!"

So the two boxes (both made 5 dinners for 2 people) cost me a grand total of $20. Averaging $2 per meal per person, which quite frankly I can do myself at a stretch and with sale products from Aldi, and the herbs didn't last very long, definitely not the full week.

I don't get why people pay full price (I think from memory it was something like $79?) for this either.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20637 on: July 29, 2018, 06:59:05 PM »
They don't even chop it up for you? So it's just a recipe and the ingredients for it which you can get at any greengrocer, butcher or supermarket?


Wow, the things people will pay for.

talltexan

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20638 on: July 30, 2018, 07:51:20 AM »
Yep I've figured it out.  He's addicted to Pule cheese: made from the milk of Balkan donkeys from Serbia.  About $600/lb.

Isn't that the stuff where the tennis player Novak Djokovic basically bought every farm that makes it? So you're paying such a high price because a rich tennis star controls the entire world supply?

SteadyDoinIt

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20639 on: July 30, 2018, 09:54:50 AM »
Coworker talking about his new car purchase this weekend:

1) while in the finance office: "I just finished figuring out how I'm going to afford this car, and now they started talking to me about how they're adding all of these warranties. I can't afford it with all of that!"
2) also in the finance office: "So I told them, 'if you give me 6% apr, I'll take it.'"
3) "I'm just going to refinance it and hopefully get 5.5%"
4) "But we love the car though. It's so great. We think we want to go camping more often since we have it."

High comedy on a Monday morning!

Sibley

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20640 on: July 30, 2018, 11:35:38 AM »
Coworker talking about his new car purchase this weekend:

1) while in the finance office: "I just finished figuring out how I'm going to afford this car, and now they started talking to me about how they're adding all of these warranties. I can't afford it with all of that!"
2) also in the finance office: "So I told them, 'if you give me 6% apr, I'll take it.'"
3) "I'm just going to refinance it and hopefully get 5.5%"
4) "But we love the car though. It's so great. We think we want to go camping more often since we have it."

High comedy on a Monday morning!

Your coworker is making my brain hurt.

Uturn

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20641 on: July 30, 2018, 01:57:38 PM »

2) also in the finance office: "So I told them, 'if you give me 6% apr, I'll take it.'"
3) "I'm just going to refinance it and hopefully get 5.5%"

I do not miss the days of buying cars on credit and having to play this game.  Hoping my credit and debt to income ratio was good enough to please the banker. 

tungsten

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20642 on: July 30, 2018, 06:24:18 PM »
Not at work but from a housemate about work:

My housemate Bill is living in our house for free because he does some work for the landlord on the side, but otherwise has nothing saved and has had no real job or other income for a long time.  Recently he got a job driving a water truck around a construction site all day spraying water to mitigate the dust. "That's great!" I said.  He was really excited about it, and I was happy for him to maybe turn his life around.  About 4 days later he's identified a critical problem with the job; "it's boring" he says.  His solution? "I'm just going to get really stoned everyday WHILE driving the truck."  Not a surprise since he's kind of a wake and bake kind of person, but after that it made it really hard for me to be sympathetic to his situation.  Geez man, how about listening to podcasts or something? 

draculawyer

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20643 on: July 30, 2018, 07:14:09 PM »
Wow. I remember when a HS classmate posted on FB a while back about how her law school debt was finally under six figures.
I was floored at the time at that level of student debt. Four times that? I donít even have words.

That actually includes her house, her husband's student loans from undergrad, and her remaining law school loans. Law school costs up to $250k, I believe.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20644 on: July 30, 2018, 08:05:28 PM »
The median Australian household income is now AUD79,160. Apparently, this means life is a huge struggle.


Also, women are less financially literate than men, and unsurprisingly,


"The survey found that the poverty rate among the least financially literate group is more than twice the poverty rate among the most-literate group."

Education is important.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 08:34:47 PM by Kyle Schuant »

nnls

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20645 on: July 30, 2018, 09:47:50 PM »
The median Australian household income is now AUD79,160. Apparently, this means life is a huge struggle.


Also, women are less financially literate than men, and unsurprisingly,


"The survey found that the poverty rate among the least financially literate group is more than twice the poverty rate among the most-literate group."

Education is important.

it worried me people couldnt answer those questions, most were basic maths

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20646 on: July 31, 2018, 05:48:06 AM »
The median Australian household income is now AUD79,160. Apparently, this means life is a huge struggle.


Also, women are less financially literate than men, and unsurprisingly,


"The survey found that the poverty rate among the least financially literate group is more than twice the poverty rate among the most-literate group."

Education is important.

it worried me people couldnt answer those questions, most were basic maths

To be fair, most of those questions are extremely simplyfying and as such, if you take them without guessing the intention, must be answered "wrong".

Quote
Suppose that by the year 2020 your income has doubled, but the prices of all of the things you buy have also doubled. In 2020, will you be able to buy more than today, exactly the same as today, or less than today with your income?

Since the "things I buy" are only 20% of my income, I can buy a lot more then. But I dont think a "more" would be counted as correct right?

The most important think for any questionaire are the questions, and they seldom are good.

Dabnasty

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20647 on: July 31, 2018, 07:44:13 AM »
The median Australian household income is now AUD79,160. Apparently, this means life is a huge struggle.


Also, women are less financially literate than men, and unsurprisingly,


"The survey found that the poverty rate among the least financially literate group is more than twice the poverty rate among the most-literate group."

Education is important.

it worried me people couldnt answer those questions, most were basic maths

To be fair, most of those questions are extremely simplyfying and as such, if you take them without guessing the intention, must be answered "wrong".

Quote
Suppose that by the year 2020 your income has doubled, but the prices of all of the things you buy have also doubled. In 2020, will you be able to buy more than today, exactly the same as today, or less than today with your income?

Since the "things I buy" are only 20% of my income, I can buy a lot more then. But I dont think a "more" would be counted as correct right?

The most important think for any questionaire are the questions, and they seldom are good.

I don't see how you're coming up with more. Are you considering future savings or perhaps the fact that you could spend more now if you wanted to?

The wording is "will you be able to buy more". I don't read it as relating to actual spend.

On the other hand, I wonder if #3 was missed more than the other questions; I don't think that necessarily equates to financial illiteracy. Diversification of investments does seem fairly basic but it's also not simple math.

Just Joe

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20648 on: July 31, 2018, 07:46:36 AM »

2) also in the finance office: "So I told them, 'if you give me 6% apr, I'll take it.'"
3) "I'm just going to refinance it and hopefully get 5.5%"

I do not miss the days of buying cars on credit and having to play this game.  Hoping my credit and debt to income ratio was good enough to please the banker.

I have zero interest in ever negotiating the price of a new(er) car again. What the best "out the door price"? I'm not negotiating. I have my own financing. No trade-in. Tell the dealer they have half an hour before we walk out the door.

Or just skip it all and get the financing through your bank or credit union. Last time we bought a car with financing I called the credit union, they readied the paperwork over the phone and I stopped by to sign it and picked up the check.

And buy from some place like CarMax where what you see is what you get, no negotiating the price. The time we used them the car was much cheaper than the dealers and flawless. Still serves us well today.

CptCool

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20649 on: July 31, 2018, 08:48:32 AM »
Quote
Suppose that by the year 2020 your income has doubled, but the prices of all of the things you buy have also doubled. In 2020, will you be able to buy more than today, exactly the same as today, or less than today with your income?

Since the "things I buy" are only 20% of my income, I can buy a lot more then. But I dont think a "more" would be counted as correct right?

The most important think for any questionaire are the questions, and they seldom are good.

This was a poorly worded question. The correct answer is supposed to be 'exactly the same', but it assumes you spend 100% of your income.

$100k income, buy $50k stuff --> $200k income, buy $100k stuff. Doubling income and expenses still allows for double the amount of stuff I could buy. That's the way I thought of it too, so I guess I'm financially illiterate according to that article's definition