Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 6427654 times)

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18750 on: September 25, 2017, 10:33:14 PM »
...

Then it turns out him and his wife can't get pregnant. She absolutely HAS to have a child that she birthed (adoption is out of the question despite their strong Christian, "love everybody" outlook on things), so 3 rounds of IVF at $15k a pop, all put on credit cards.

...

I normally just lurk but I wanted to comment on this. I know it's just a throwaway jab, but it's rubbing me the wrong way. I'm going to be doing IVF next month so I get my hackles up about this topic much more easily than the average person, but one of my big annoyances is how judgmental people get about the choice to try for a biological child only AFTER they realize that you're going to need medical assistance. "Why don't you just adopt?" is basically the center square in the game of infertility Bingo (followed closely by "just relax"). But I never got any snide remarks about adoption when people would ask me about babies when my husband and I first started trying (yes, it's weird that people ask about others' reproductive plans at all, but "Are you going to try for kids?" was a common question when we got married).

The above coworker and his wife went through 3 rounds of ivf. That's a lot of devastation as well as expense to achieve what many people get for free by having sex. Not to mention the physical process of ivf! Then add on the extra judgment about their choices that they wouldn't have otherwise received, and it just sucks all around.

I guess ultimately I wish people would either be less judgmental about people dealing with infertility, or at least equally judgmental to people who are fertile. Haha.


Back on topic, my office is pretty mustachian other than the odd celebratory restaurant lunch or envelopes that go around for $ contributions to buy gifts for people who are moving on to other companies. The least mustachian thing is probably the number of people in my office still working over 60! Lots of part-timers in their 70s. We recently had a coworker pass away who was 81. I think most of the old-timers still work because they want to, rather than because they need the money, though. The oldest ones are all lawyers and I think they never want to "slow down"!

I'd guess it's because "natural" childbirth is basically free, whereas IVF is perceived to be (wrongly?) expensive and therefore more comparable to adoption (which I also perceive to be fairly expensive).  FWIW, we considered adoption to be an alternative to IVF if we had trouble conceiving, but didn't seriously consider it as an alternative to "regular" babymaking.  (sorry I don't know what word to use that doesn't come off sounding like a jerk)

JordanOfGilead

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18751 on: September 26, 2017, 06:13:44 AM »
...

Then it turns out him and his wife can't get pregnant. She absolutely HAS to have a child that she birthed (adoption is out of the question despite their strong Christian, "love everybody" outlook on things), so 3 rounds of IVF at $15k a pop, all put on credit cards.

...


I normally just lurk but I wanted to comment on this. I know it's just a throwaway jab, but it's rubbing me the wrong way. I'm going to be doing IVF next month so I get my hackles up about this topic much more easily than the average person, but one of my big annoyances is how judgmental people get about the choice to try for a biological child only AFTER they realize that you're going to need medical assistance. "Why don't you just adopt?" is basically the center square in the game of infertility Bingo (followed closely by "just relax"). But I never got any snide remarks about adoption when people would ask me about babies when my husband and I first started trying (yes, it's weird that people ask about others' reproductive plans at all, but "Are you going to try for kids?" was a common question when we got married).

The above coworker and his wife went through 3 rounds of ivf. That's a lot of devastation as well as expense to achieve what many people get for free by having sex. Not to mention the physical process of ivf! Then add on the extra judgment about their choices that they wouldn't have otherwise received, and it just sucks all around.

I guess ultimately I wish people would either be less judgmental about people dealing with infertility, or at least equally judgmental to people who are fertile. Haha.


Back on topic, my office is pretty mustachian other than the odd celebratory restaurant lunch or envelopes that go around for $ contributions to buy gifts for people who are moving on to other companies. The least mustachian thing is probably the number of people in my office still working over 60! Lots of part-timers in their 70s. We recently had a coworker pass away who was 81. I think most of the old-timers still work because they want to, rather than because they need the money, though. The oldest ones are all lawyers and I think they never want to "slow down"!

I'd guess it's because "natural" childbirth is basically free, whereas IVF is perceived to be (wrongly?) expensive and therefore more comparable to adoption (which I also perceive to be fairly expensive).  FWIW, we considered adoption to be an alternative to IVF if we had trouble conceiving, but didn't seriously consider it as an alternative to "regular" babymaking.  (sorry I don't know what word to use that doesn't come off sounding like a jerk)

My fiancé and I have talked long and hard about our options for having children and came to the conclusion that, while we would like to have one of our own, we would much rather adopt and give a child a home that doesn't have one than spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring another person into a world where so many already exist that need help. It is from that perspective that I am judging the SHIT out of them for spending so much on IVF rather than to consider giving a child without a family a loving home, because my SO and I have had this conversation and I feel that her strong Christian upbringing has very much to do with her want to help children in need through foster care and adoption, whether or not she is able to have kids of her own. We have already decided to adopt regardless of our capability to conceive. It makes me wonder how much aforementioned CW actually gives a shit about the world outside of his immediate bubble to the extent that he would spend nearly $50,000 just to have a child that is genetically tied to him.

As a child that has an adoptive parent, I can attest to the fact that I have never received any less love from him than he gave to his biological daughter. It makes it difficult for me to understand why people are so resistant to the concept of adopting.

The section you chose to criticize is cherry picked from a long list of financially irresponsible decisions. If it were just the IVF thing, I wouldn't have even considered bringing it up. But it's not just the IVF thing. It's the $45k IVF thing, and the $47k mini van, and the $40k sedan, and the $250k house, and the constant wasteful spending on "tools" that he never uses, or uses once and stores away. It's the fact that he bitches and moans on a daily basis about being in debt but, despite the fact that he was a gnat's nut hair away from being out of it, does nothing to better his situation and continues to spend beyond his capability continually blaming his wife for his spending habits because he would rather stay neck deep in debt to appease her than talk to her about the money problem. The reason for my post is bigger than this one cherry picked item.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18752 on: September 26, 2017, 07:19:17 AM »
...

Then it turns out him and his wife can't get pregnant. She absolutely HAS to have a child that she birthed (adoption is out of the question despite their strong Christian, "love everybody" outlook on things), so 3 rounds of IVF at $15k a pop, all put on credit cards.

...


I normally just lurk but I wanted to comment on this. I know it's just a throwaway jab, but it's rubbing me the wrong way. I'm going to be doing IVF next month so I get my hackles up about this topic much more easily than the average person, but one of my big annoyances is how judgmental people get about the choice to try for a biological child only AFTER they realize that you're going to need medical assistance. "Why don't you just adopt?" is basically the center square in the game of infertility Bingo (followed closely by "just relax"). But I never got any snide remarks about adoption when people would ask me about babies when my husband and I first started trying (yes, it's weird that people ask about others' reproductive plans at all, but "Are you going to try for kids?" was a common question when we got married).

The above coworker and his wife went through 3 rounds of ivf. That's a lot of devastation as well as expense to achieve what many people get for free by having sex. Not to mention the physical process of ivf! Then add on the extra judgment about their choices that they wouldn't have otherwise received, and it just sucks all around.

I guess ultimately I wish people would either be less judgmental about people dealing with infertility, or at least equally judgmental to people who are fertile. Haha.


Back on topic, my office is pretty mustachian other than the odd celebratory restaurant lunch or envelopes that go around for $ contributions to buy gifts for people who are moving on to other companies. The least mustachian thing is probably the number of people in my office still working over 60! Lots of part-timers in their 70s. We recently had a coworker pass away who was 81. I think most of the old-timers still work because they want to, rather than because they need the money, though. The oldest ones are all lawyers and I think they never want to "slow down"!

I'd guess it's because "natural" childbirth is basically free, whereas IVF is perceived to be (wrongly?) expensive and therefore more comparable to adoption (which I also perceive to be fairly expensive).  FWIW, we considered adoption to be an alternative to IVF if we had trouble conceiving, but didn't seriously consider it as an alternative to "regular" babymaking.  (sorry I don't know what word to use that doesn't come off sounding like a jerk)

My fiancé and I have talked long and hard about our options for having children and came to the conclusion that, while we would like to have one of our own, we would much rather adopt and give a child a home that doesn't have one than spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring another person into a world where so many already exist that need help. It is from that perspective that I am judging the SHIT out of them for spending so much on IVF rather than to consider giving a child without a family a loving home, because my SO and I have had this conversation and I feel that her strong Christian upbringing has very much to do with her want to help children in need through foster care and adoption, whether or not she is able to have kids of her own. We have already decided to adopt regardless of our capability to conceive. It makes me wonder how much aforementioned CW actually gives a shit about the world outside of his immediate bubble to the extent that he would spend nearly $50,000 just to have a child that is genetically tied to him.

As a child that has an adoptive parent, I can attest to the fact that I have never received any less love from him than he gave to his biological daughter. It makes it difficult for me to understand why people are so resistant to the concept of adopting.

The section you chose to criticize is cherry picked from a long list of financially irresponsible decisions. If it were just the IVF thing, I wouldn't have even considered bringing it up. But it's not just the IVF thing. It's the $45k IVF thing, and the $47k mini van, and the $40k sedan, and the $250k house, and the constant wasteful spending on "tools" that he never uses, or uses once and stores away. It's the fact that he bitches and moans on a daily basis about being in debt but, despite the fact that he was a gnat's nut hair away from being out of it, does nothing to better his situation and continues to spend beyond his capability continually blaming his wife for his spending habits because he would rather stay neck deep in debt to appease her than talk to her about the money problem. The reason for my post is bigger than this one cherry picked item.

Thanks for your further comment. The reason I "cherry picked" that one section is because I think you're right to judge their other financial choices.

I'm glad to read that you're passionate about adoption for fertile people too. So often I hear people say that choosing ivf over adoption is morally reprehensible, when the people with that attitude have their own bio children and would not adopt themselves. People are so selfless when it comes to how other people should theoretically live their lives.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18753 on: September 26, 2017, 11:52:37 AM »
Quote
My fiancé and I have talked long and hard about our options for having children and came to the conclusion that, while we would like to have one of our own, we would much rather adopt and give a child a home that doesn't have one than spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring another person into a world where so many already exist that need help. It is from that perspective that I am judging the SHIT out of them for spending so much on IVF rather than to consider giving a child without a family a loving home, because my SO and I have had this conversation and I feel that her strong Christian upbringing has very much to do with her want to help children in need through foster care and adoption, whether or not she is able to have kids of her own. We have already decided to adopt regardless of our capability to conceive. It makes me wonder how much aforementioned CW actually gives a shit about the world outside of his immediate bubble to the extent that he would spend nearly $50,000 just to have a child that is genetically tied to him.
I'm not going to judge, because adoption comes with its own set of issues.

Nothing is guaranteed.  You can have a bio child with disabilities and issues, etc.

But I have friends who have adopted from foster care.  And, these kids often have issues.  From fetal alcohol syndrome to other drug addictions in utero to...?  It honestly takes a very special kind of person to be able to deal with that.  And I've also spent some time looking up adoption agencies and kids that are available.  The vast majority that I found were:
- multiple kids in one family
- had developmental delays
- had anger issues such that the recommendations were "Would do best in a family where he/she is the ONLY child or the youngest by at least 10 years"

Now, I agree that these children need and deserve loving homes and loving parents.  But honestly, the vast majority of people are not equipped to handle them.  They can be, with training.  However, our local agency that does foster-to-adopt REQUIRES two things:
1.  You have to agree to adopt if a child is placed with you and is there for more than X amount of time
2.  You have to have a stay at home parent.

The families that I know who have successfully done the foster-to-adopt were successful because they already had grown children.  They were older, had been through most of it before, and were able to handle early years disruptions that were due to the first few years of life and its craziness.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18754 on: September 26, 2017, 12:02:18 PM »

I guess ultimately I wish people would either be less judgmental about people dealing with infertility, or at least equally judgmental to people who are fertile. Haha.



Best of luck to you with your IVF. Struggling with infertility is one of the hardest things I've dealt with in my entire life.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18755 on: September 26, 2017, 12:24:21 PM »
Quote
My fiancé and I have talked long and hard about our options for having children and came to the conclusion that, while we would like to have one of our own, we would much rather adopt and give a child a home that doesn't have one than spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring another person into a world where so many already exist that need help. It is from that perspective that I am judging the SHIT out of them for spending so much on IVF rather than to consider giving a child without a family a loving home, because my SO and I have had this conversation and I feel that her strong Christian upbringing has very much to do with her want to help children in need through foster care and adoption, whether or not she is able to have kids of her own. We have already decided to adopt regardless of our capability to conceive. It makes me wonder how much aforementioned CW actually gives a shit about the world outside of his immediate bubble to the extent that he would spend nearly $50,000 just to have a child that is genetically tied to him.
I'm not going to judge, because adoption comes with its own set of issues.

Nothing is guaranteed.  You can have a bio child with disabilities and issues, etc.

But I have friends who have adopted from foster care.  And, these kids often have issues.  From fetal alcohol syndrome to other drug addictions in utero to...?  It honestly takes a very special kind of person to be able to deal with that.  And I've also spent some time looking up adoption agencies and kids that are available.  The vast majority that I found were:
- multiple kids in one family
- had developmental delays
- had anger issues such that the recommendations were "Would do best in a family where he/she is the ONLY child or the youngest by at least 10 years"

Now, I agree that these children need and deserve loving homes and loving parents.  But honestly, the vast majority of people are not equipped to handle them.  They can be, with training.  However, our local agency that does foster-to-adopt REQUIRES two things:
1.  You have to agree to adopt if a child is placed with you and is there for more than X amount of time
2.  You have to have a stay at home parent.

The families that I know who have successfully done the foster-to-adopt were successful because they already had grown children.  They were older, had been through most of it before, and were able to handle early years disruptions that were due to the first few years of life and its craziness.

QFT. In my state, adoption out of foster care is routinely pitched to single people and working couples. It shouldn't be, especially for older children.

By the time abused kids are taken in, they're generally several years behind developmentally and emotionally. The trauma they have been through generally causes them to act out in ways that sound like something out of young adult fiction or an after-school movie, and the only way to manage the consequences is to provide around-the-clock, on-demand supervision. If the child has been through several placements, there's a reason why, and yes, it generally does have to do with the child's behavior.

The only people who are capable of providing "in-home" care for severely troubled children are the ones who do it for a living. They are typically older couples who earn most of their income from foster care and who either are not employed outside the home or are able to set their own schedule such as by doing a sizable part of their work from home. They basically convert their home into a containment system for troubled children, most of whom end up piled in like cordwood to the point where they cannot receive the individual attention or tutoring they need (so they make zero progress in school). Transporting them to and from all their mandatory counseling, therapy, and medical appointments is a full-time job in itself.

Having a two-income family or being a single parent is possible IF you have normal kids. Children taken into the foster system have been damaged to the point where they are no longer normal, generally by their "loving" families of origin. The families of origin, by the way, are golden as far as the foster care system is concerned; the foster care system is basically set up to fellate them by giving them chance after chance to jerk their kids around, lie some more, and abuse them some more. You, the foster parent or pre-adoptive parent, are the punching bag not just for the kids but for the parents and the system too. Oh, and the notion that the child's parents and family is no longer in the picture is utterly false, unless you adopt from outside the country.
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Kevin S.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18756 on: September 26, 2017, 01:32:12 PM »
Quote
My fiancé and I have talked long and hard about our options for having children and came to the conclusion that, while we would like to have one of our own, we would much rather adopt and give a child a home that doesn't have one than spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring another person into a world where so many already exist that need help. It is from that perspective that I am judging the SHIT out of them for spending so much on IVF rather than to consider giving a child without a family a loving home, because my SO and I have had this conversation and I feel that her strong Christian upbringing has very much to do with her want to help children in need through foster care and adoption, whether or not she is able to have kids of her own. We have already decided to adopt regardless of our capability to conceive. It makes me wonder how much aforementioned CW actually gives a shit about the world outside of his immediate bubble to the extent that he would spend nearly $50,000 just to have a child that is genetically tied to him.
I'm not going to judge, because adoption comes with its own set of issues.

Nothing is guaranteed.  You can have a bio child with disabilities and issues, etc.

But I have friends who have adopted from foster care.  And, these kids often have issues.  From fetal alcohol syndrome to other drug addictions in utero to...?  It honestly takes a very special kind of person to be able to deal with that.  And I've also spent some time looking up adoption agencies and kids that are available.  The vast majority that I found were:
- multiple kids in one family
- had developmental delays
- had anger issues such that the recommendations were "Would do best in a family where he/she is the ONLY child or the youngest by at least 10 years"

Now, I agree that these children need and deserve loving homes and loving parents.  But honestly, the vast majority of people are not equipped to handle them.  They can be, with training.  However, our local agency that does foster-to-adopt REQUIRES two things:
1.  You have to agree to adopt if a child is placed with you and is there for more than X amount of time
2.  You have to have a stay at home parent.

The families that I know who have successfully done the foster-to-adopt were successful because they already had grown children.  They were older, had been through most of it before, and were able to handle early years disruptions that were due to the first few years of life and its craziness.

QFT. In my state, adoption out of foster care is routinely pitched to single people and working couples. It shouldn't be, especially for older children.

By the time abused kids are taken in, they're generally several years behind developmentally and emotionally. The trauma they have been through generally causes them to act out in ways that sound like something out of young adult fiction or an after-school movie, and the only way to manage the consequences is to provide around-the-clock, on-demand supervision. If the child has been through several placements, there's a reason why, and yes, it generally does have to do with the child's behavior.

The only people who are capable of providing "in-home" care for severely troubled children are the ones who do it for a living. They are typically older couples who earn most of their income from foster care and who either are not employed outside the home or are able to set their own schedule such as by doing a sizable part of their work from home. They basically convert their home into a containment system for troubled children, most of whom end up piled in like cordwood to the point where they cannot receive the individual attention or tutoring they need (so they make zero progress in school). Transporting them to and from all their mandatory counseling, therapy, and medical appointments is a full-time job in itself.

Having a two-income family or being a single parent is possible IF you have normal kids. Children taken into the foster system have been damaged to the point where they are no longer normal, generally by their "loving" families of origin. The families of origin, by the way, are golden as far as the foster care system is concerned; the foster care system is basically set up to fellate them by giving them chance after chance to jerk their kids around, lie some more, and abuse them some more. You, the foster parent or pre-adoptive parent, are the punching bag not just for the kids but for the parents and the system too. Oh, and the notion that the child's parents and family is no longer in the picture is utterly false, unless you adopt from outside the country.


As someone who is looking at foster / adoption of a child. Thank you! My fiance brings it up now and again. I honestly don't know how i feel about it.

Is your experience first or second hand or just what you have heard from being "in the know?"

Thank you !

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18757 on: September 26, 2017, 01:44:13 PM »
Quote
My fiancé and I have talked long and hard about our options for having children and came to the conclusion that, while we would like to have one of our own, we would much rather adopt and give a child a home that doesn't have one than spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring another person into a world where so many already exist that need help. It is from that perspective that I am judging the SHIT out of them for spending so much on IVF rather than to consider giving a child without a family a loving home, because my SO and I have had this conversation and I feel that her strong Christian upbringing has very much to do with her want to help children in need through foster care and adoption, whether or not she is able to have kids of her own. We have already decided to adopt regardless of our capability to conceive. It makes me wonder how much aforementioned CW actually gives a shit about the world outside of his immediate bubble to the extent that he would spend nearly $50,000 just to have a child that is genetically tied to him.
I'm not going to judge, because adoption comes with its own set of issues.

Nothing is guaranteed.  You can have a bio child with disabilities and issues, etc.

But I have friends who have adopted from foster care.  And, these kids often have issues.  From fetal alcohol syndrome to other drug addictions in utero to...?  It honestly takes a very special kind of person to be able to deal with that.  And I've also spent some time looking up adoption agencies and kids that are available.  The vast majority that I found were:
- multiple kids in one family
- had developmental delays
- had anger issues such that the recommendations were "Would do best in a family where he/she is the ONLY child or the youngest by at least 10 years"

Now, I agree that these children need and deserve loving homes and loving parents.  But honestly, the vast majority of people are not equipped to handle them.  They can be, with training.  However, our local agency that does foster-to-adopt REQUIRES two things:
1.  You have to agree to adopt if a child is placed with you and is there for more than X amount of time
2.  You have to have a stay at home parent.

The families that I know who have successfully done the foster-to-adopt were successful because they already had grown children.  They were older, had been through most of it before, and were able to handle early years disruptions that were due to the first few years of life and its craziness.

QFT. In my state, adoption out of foster care is routinely pitched to single people and working couples. It shouldn't be, especially for older children.

By the time abused kids are taken in, they're generally several years behind developmentally and emotionally. The trauma they have been through generally causes them to act out in ways that sound like something out of young adult fiction or an after-school movie, and the only way to manage the consequences is to provide around-the-clock, on-demand supervision. If the child has been through several placements, there's a reason why, and yes, it generally does have to do with the child's behavior.

The only people who are capable of providing "in-home" care for severely troubled children are the ones who do it for a living. They are typically older couples who earn most of their income from foster care and who either are not employed outside the home or are able to set their own schedule such as by doing a sizable part of their work from home. They basically convert their home into a containment system for troubled children, most of whom end up piled in like cordwood to the point where they cannot receive the individual attention or tutoring they need (so they make zero progress in school). Transporting them to and from all their mandatory counseling, therapy, and medical appointments is a full-time job in itself.

Having a two-income family or being a single parent is possible IF you have normal kids. Children taken into the foster system have been damaged to the point where they are no longer normal, generally by their "loving" families of origin. The families of origin, by the way, are golden as far as the foster care system is concerned; the foster care system is basically set up to fellate them by giving them chance after chance to jerk their kids around, lie some more, and abuse them some more. You, the foster parent or pre-adoptive parent, are the punching bag not just for the kids but for the parents and the system too. Oh, and the notion that the child's parents and family is no longer in the picture is utterly false, unless you adopt from outside the country.


As someone who is looking at foster / adoption of a child. Thank you! My fiance brings it up now and again. I honestly don't know how i feel about it.

Is your experience first or second hand or just what you have heard from being "in the know?"

Thank you !

Direct personal-- and miserable-- experience.

You can PM me for the more explicit details. I won't publish them, because the Internet is forever and I do not want my child to be punished for a lifetime for what may be a relatively temporary phase. But it's been bad. I have a spreadsheet and am counting down the days until she turns 18 and, by mutual agreement, moves out of my home and in with someone she doesn't despise. Our values are radically out of step and there's no emotional bond to speak of from her side. She will most likely never see me as anything except somebody to use, preferably in order to benefit the lowlifes she does value.

Had it not been for the Mustachian community, and particularly the financial principles that I'd been practicing a long time but that got reinforced on this board, I'd be bankrupt due to the shenanigans, manipulation, and constant demands not just by her but by other people in her lowlife entourage, including members of her bio-family.

Ironically, by the standards of the child services administration our adoption is considered a "success".

I've advised other members of this forum in the past. You can ask me anything.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18758 on: September 26, 2017, 02:05:44 PM »
Apparently in the Northwest you can shop online for your ideal adopted child, and there's a form to filter by a bunch of factors like age and race:
http://www.nwae.org/

That's a little creepy to begin with, but why not. It's a little suspect that all the bios portray the kids in a mostly good light. It seems too good to be true.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18759 on: September 26, 2017, 05:30:13 PM »
A colleague has a 31-year-old daughter who still lives at home. Yesterday colleague started listing her frustrations:

- daughter works FT, has always lived at home, has never paid rent
- does not buy groceries
- does not buy her own toiletries - uses her my colleague's expensive products
- does not have a licence
- tidies her room and stacks the dishwasher, but does not contribute to household cleaning, e.g. does not vacuum or clean bathroom
- does not have a licence, despite my colleague buying her a car
- does not save because 'I'll just inherit the house when you die, Mum'

Her big act of generosity is to pay for takeaway once a fortnight.

My colleague cannot see how she is enabling this behaviour.

Colleague 2 chimed in with sympathy because she has two entitled twenty-something daughters.

On a recent family trip to Europe, colleague 2 and her husband flew daughter's boyfriend over there to spend her birthday with her.

Colleague 2 and husband booked separate accommodation for them, knowing they would want some privacy.

Daughter kicked up a stink that the (four-star) accommodation wasn't as nice as where she had been staying with her parents, and demanded they swap. And colleague and her husband agreed! :o

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18760 on: September 26, 2017, 07:11:32 PM »
Quote
My fiancé and I have talked long and hard about our options for having children and came to the conclusion that, while we would like to have one of our own, we would much rather adopt and give a child a home that doesn't have one than spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring another person into a world where so many already exist that need help. It is from that perspective that I am judging the SHIT out of them for spending so much on IVF rather than to consider giving a child without a family a loving home, because my SO and I have had this conversation and I feel that her strong Christian upbringing has very much to do with her want to help children in need through foster care and adoption, whether or not she is able to have kids of her own. We have already decided to adopt regardless of our capability to conceive. It makes me wonder how much aforementioned CW actually gives a shit about the world outside of his immediate bubble to the extent that he would spend nearly $50,000 just to have a child that is genetically tied to him.
I'm not going to judge, because adoption comes with its own set of issues.

Nothing is guaranteed.  You can have a bio child with disabilities and issues, etc.

But I have friends who have adopted from foster care.  And, these kids often have issues.  From fetal alcohol syndrome to other drug addictions in utero to...?  It honestly takes a very special kind of person to be able to deal with that.  And I've also spent some time looking up adoption agencies and kids that are available.  The vast majority that I found were:
- multiple kids in one family
- had developmental delays
- had anger issues such that the recommendations were "Would do best in a family where he/she is the ONLY child or the youngest by at least 10 years"

Now, I agree that these children need and deserve loving homes and loving parents.  But honestly, the vast majority of people are not equipped to handle them.  They can be, with training.  However, our local agency that does foster-to-adopt REQUIRES two things:
1.  You have to agree to adopt if a child is placed with you and is there for more than X amount of time
2.  You have to have a stay at home parent.

The families that I know who have successfully done the foster-to-adopt were successful because they already had grown children.  They were older, had been through most of it before, and were able to handle early years disruptions that were due to the first few years of life and its craziness.

QFT. In my state, adoption out of foster care is routinely pitched to single people and working couples. It shouldn't be, especially for older children.

By the time abused kids are taken in, they're generally several years behind developmentally and emotionally. The trauma they have been through generally causes them to act out in ways that sound like something out of young adult fiction or an after-school movie, and the only way to manage the consequences is to provide around-the-clock, on-demand supervision. If the child has been through several placements, there's a reason why, and yes, it generally does have to do with the child's behavior.

The only people who are capable of providing "in-home" care for severely troubled children are the ones who do it for a living. They are typically older couples who earn most of their income from foster care and who either are not employed outside the home or are able to set their own schedule such as by doing a sizable part of their work from home. They basically convert their home into a containment system for troubled children, most of whom end up piled in like cordwood to the point where they cannot receive the individual attention or tutoring they need (so they make zero progress in school). Transporting them to and from all their mandatory counseling, therapy, and medical appointments is a full-time job in itself.

Having a two-income family or being a single parent is possible IF you have normal kids. Children taken into the foster system have been damaged to the point where they are no longer normal, generally by their "loving" families of origin. The families of origin, by the way, are golden as far as the foster care system is concerned; the foster care system is basically set up to fellate them by giving them chance after chance to jerk their kids around, lie some more, and abuse them some more. You, the foster parent or pre-adoptive parent, are the punching bag not just for the kids but for the parents and the system too. Oh, and the notion that the child's parents and family is no longer in the picture is utterly false, unless you adopt from outside the country.


As someone who is looking at foster / adoption of a child. Thank you! My fiance brings it up now and again. I honestly don't know how i feel about it.

Is your experience first or second hand or just what you have heard from being "in the know?"

Thank you !

Direct personal-- and miserable-- experience.

You can PM me for the more explicit details. I won't publish them, because the Internet is forever and I do not want my child to be punished for a lifetime for what may be a relatively temporary phase. But it's been bad. I have a spreadsheet and am counting down the days until she turns 18 and, by mutual agreement, moves out of my home and in with someone she doesn't despise. Our values are radically out of step and there's no emotional bond to speak of from her side. She will most likely never see me as anything except somebody to use, preferably in order to benefit the lowlifes she does value.

Had it not been for the Mustachian community, and particularly the financial principles that I'd been practicing a long time but that got reinforced on this board, I'd be bankrupt due to the shenanigans, manipulation, and constant demands not just by her but by other people in her lowlife entourage, including members of her bio-family.

Ironically, by the standards of the child services administration our adoption is considered a "success".

I've advised other members of this forum in the past. You can ask me anything.

Posting to strongly second this.  Almost every adoption of an "older" childer is a special-needs adoption.  There's no happy story which ends with a child needing to be adopted, and those sad stories come with deep and lasting consequences.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18761 on: September 27, 2017, 08:08:55 AM »
Quote
My fiancé and I have talked long and hard about our options for having children and came to the conclusion that, while we would like to have one of our own, we would much rather adopt and give a child a home that doesn't have one than spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring another person into a world where so many already exist that need help. It is from that perspective that I am judging the SHIT out of them for spending so much on IVF rather than to consider giving a child without a family a loving home, because my SO and I have had this conversation and I feel that her strong Christian upbringing has very much to do with her want to help children in need through foster care and adoption, whether or not she is able to have kids of her own. We have already decided to adopt regardless of our capability to conceive. It makes me wonder how much aforementioned CW actually gives a shit about the world outside of his immediate bubble to the extent that he would spend nearly $50,000 just to have a child that is genetically tied to him.
I'm not going to judge, because adoption comes with its own set of issues.

Nothing is guaranteed.  You can have a bio child with disabilities and issues, etc.

But I have friends who have adopted from foster care.  And, these kids often have issues.  From fetal alcohol syndrome to other drug addictions in utero to...?  It honestly takes a very special kind of person to be able to deal with that.  And I've also spent some time looking up adoption agencies and kids that are available.  The vast majority that I found were:
- multiple kids in one family
- had developmental delays
- had anger issues such that the recommendations were "Would do best in a family where he/she is the ONLY child or the youngest by at least 10 years"

Now, I agree that these children need and deserve loving homes and loving parents.  But honestly, the vast majority of people are not equipped to handle them.  They can be, with training.  However, our local agency that does foster-to-adopt REQUIRES two things:
1.  You have to agree to adopt if a child is placed with you and is there for more than X amount of time
2.  You have to have a stay at home parent.

The families that I know who have successfully done the foster-to-adopt were successful because they already had grown children.  They were older, had been through most of it before, and were able to handle early years disruptions that were due to the first few years of life and its craziness.

QFT. In my state, adoption out of foster care is routinely pitched to single people and working couples. It shouldn't be, especially for older children.

By the time abused kids are taken in, they're generally several years behind developmentally and emotionally. The trauma they have been through generally causes them to act out in ways that sound like something out of young adult fiction or an after-school movie, and the only way to manage the consequences is to provide around-the-clock, on-demand supervision. If the child has been through several placements, there's a reason why, and yes, it generally does have to do with the child's behavior.

The only people who are capable of providing "in-home" care for severely troubled children are the ones who do it for a living. They are typically older couples who earn most of their income from foster care and who either are not employed outside the home or are able to set their own schedule such as by doing a sizable part of their work from home. They basically convert their home into a containment system for troubled children, most of whom end up piled in like cordwood to the point where they cannot receive the individual attention or tutoring they need (so they make zero progress in school). Transporting them to and from all their mandatory counseling, therapy, and medical appointments is a full-time job in itself.

Having a two-income family or being a single parent is possible IF you have normal kids. Children taken into the foster system have been damaged to the point where they are no longer normal, generally by their "loving" families of origin. The families of origin, by the way, are golden as far as the foster care system is concerned; the foster care system is basically set up to fellate them by giving them chance after chance to jerk their kids around, lie some more, and abuse them some more. You, the foster parent or pre-adoptive parent, are the punching bag not just for the kids but for the parents and the system too. Oh, and the notion that the child's parents and family is no longer in the picture is utterly false, unless you adopt from outside the country.


As someone who is looking at foster / adoption of a child. Thank you! My fiance brings it up now and again. I honestly don't know how i feel about it.

Is your experience first or second hand or just what you have heard from being "in the know?"

Thank you !

Direct personal-- and miserable-- experience.

You can PM me for the more explicit details. I won't publish them, because the Internet is forever and I do not want my child to be punished for a lifetime for what may be a relatively temporary phase. But it's been bad. I have a spreadsheet and am counting down the days until she turns 18 and, by mutual agreement, moves out of my home and in with someone she doesn't despise. Our values are radically out of step and there's no emotional bond to speak of from her side. She will most likely never see me as anything except somebody to use, preferably in order to benefit the lowlifes she does value.

Had it not been for the Mustachian community, and particularly the financial principles that I'd been practicing a long time but that got reinforced on this board, I'd be bankrupt due to the shenanigans, manipulation, and constant demands not just by her but by other people in her lowlife entourage, including members of her bio-family.

Ironically, by the standards of the child services administration our adoption is considered a "success".

I've advised other members of this forum in the past. You can ask me anything.

Posting to strongly second this.  Almost every adoption of an "older" childer is a special-needs adoption.  There's no happy story which ends with a child needing to be adopted, and those sad stories come with deep and lasting consequences.

It's not the age of the child that's relevant. It's how long the child has been in the system (which as a living environment is unnatural and unfair A. F.), and how long the child was in the dysfunctional situation prior to being taken into the system.
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rdaneel0

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18762 on: September 27, 2017, 12:15:00 PM »
I have a great one that really encapsulates the whole MMM-spirit, not just money.

Yesterday I left work at 3:15 ish, normal for me. We can work any hours we like and I come in early so I leave early. (Background: at my work we have to clock out for lunch, so we are not paid during lunch).

CW: You're so lucky you get to leave early.
Me: Well I got here at 7:00!
CW: Yeah and you never take lunch.
Me: What? I take a lunch break every day.
CW: Yeah, but yours aren't as long because you bring your lunch. I have to go out to buy something so I'm clocked out longer. Plus I hit rush hour coming here.
Me: Well yeah, that's part of why I work early hours, to avoid rush hour and cut down my commute. 
CW: *puzzled expression*

There's something so unique to the MMM experience for me about someone complaining about how they can't do something you're doing, even when you're in nearly identical situations. This person lives in my neighborhood, commutes on the same train, same job title, etc. They could easily get to work just as early as I do and pack breakfast and lunch and then LEAVE EARLY.

*sigh*
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CptCool

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18763 on: September 27, 2017, 12:45:52 PM »
I have a great one that really encapsulates the whole MMM-spirit, not just money.

Yesterday I left work at 3:15 ish, normal for me. We can work any hours we like and I come in early so I leave early. (Background: at my work we have to clock out for lunch, so we are not paid during lunch).

CW: You're so lucky you get to leave early.
Me: Well I got here at 7:00!
CW: Yeah and you never take lunch.
Me: What? I take a lunch break every day.
CW: Yeah, but yours aren't as long because you bring your lunch. I have to go out to buy something so I'm clocked out longer. Plus I hit rush hour coming here.
Me: Well yeah, that's part of why I work early hours, to avoid rush hour and cut down my commute. 
CW: *puzzled expression*

There's something so unique to the MMM experience for me about someone complaining about how they can't do something you're doing, even when you're in nearly identical situations. This person lives in my neighborhood, commutes on the same train, same job title, etc. They could easily get to work just as early as I do and pack breakfast and lunch and then LEAVE EARLY.

*sigh*

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mm1970

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18764 on: September 27, 2017, 01:57:07 PM »
Quote
Having a two-income family or being a single parent is possible IF you have normal kids. Children taken into the foster system have been damaged to the point where they are no longer normal, generally by their "loving" families of origin. The families of origin, by the way, are golden as far as the foster care system is concerned; the foster care system is basically set up to fellate them by giving them chance after chance to jerk their kids around, lie some more, and abuse them some more. You, the foster parent or pre-adoptive parent, are the punching bag not just for the kids but for the parents and the system too. Oh, and the notion that the child's parents and family is no longer in the picture is utterly false, unless you adopt from outside the country.

This makes me very sad, but it matches the experiences of my friends.  My really close friends, so far, are a real success.  Their children were placed with them at around age 1.5-3.

I have other friends who adopted older children (5-8) with fetal alcohol syndrome.  Less successful there but some success.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18765 on: September 27, 2017, 02:07:42 PM »
...

There's something so unique to the MMM experience for me about someone complaining about how they can't do something you're doing, even when you're in nearly identical situations. This person lives in my neighborhood, commutes on the same train, same job title, etc. They could easily get to work just as early as I do and pack breakfast and lunch and then LEAVE EARLY.

*sigh*

People do limit themselves a lot by thinking and talking about what they "can't" do when in reality they are perfectly capable of making different choices.

I recall a conversation with a co-worker who declared that he and his wife and kids "couldn't" make up a bunch of casseroles and freeze them in order to have healthy home-cooked meals that could be easily reheated. None of the "I can't do that because" statements made sense. Eventually I came to the conclusion that the guy liked the feeling of being trapped into making the decision he wanted to make, which was to get carry-out several nights per week and bitch about how expensive it was. He was making a dumb choice, and he knew it, but feeling trapped by the "impossible" other options allowed him to give himself permission.

Human beings do things for one reason, and for one reason only: to get what they want. This is composed of an intellectual part and an emotional part. The intellectual part is easy to understand: an action is either pleasant or desirable for its own sake, or it is a necessary step toward some other goal. The emotional part is more subtle. In order to set the action in motion the person has to give himself or herself permission to act. The action must feel reasonable, justifiable, or even necessary. That's where all the excuse making and bitchass logical fallacy comes in.

People rationalize, make excuses, and occasionally sabotage their own options to create circumstances wherein they "have no choice" except to take a particular course of action. It's one of the reasons why people "ostrich" (I stole that verb from someone else's thread, I forget whose) and refuse to take action until a decision is moot and only one option remains available. The default option, the most expensive option, or the only remaining option is the one they truly want, however they are unwilling to admit it. So they selectively ignore opportunities and shoot down alternate suggestions until the only course of action available is the one they've already decided on. In my colleague's case, he simply wanted to get take-out and bitch about the expense. He didn't want to actually save money and eat better. Now he was a generally mealy-mouthed individual who refused to own his own actions and decision making, preferring to blame his decisions on others or on circumstances he chose to believe were beyond his control.
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TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18766 on: September 27, 2017, 02:12:33 PM »
Quote
Having a two-income family or being a single parent is possible IF you have normal kids. Children taken into the foster system have been damaged to the point where they are no longer normal, generally by their "loving" families of origin. The families of origin, by the way, are golden as far as the foster care system is concerned; the foster care system is basically set up to fellate them by giving them chance after chance to jerk their kids around, lie some more, and abuse them some more. You, the foster parent or pre-adoptive parent, are the punching bag not just for the kids but for the parents and the system too. Oh, and the notion that the child's parents and family is no longer in the picture is utterly false, unless you adopt from outside the country.

This makes me very sad, but it matches the experiences of my friends.  My really close friends, so far, are a real success.  Their children were placed with them at around age 1.5-3.

I have other friends who adopted older children (5-8) with fetal alcohol syndrome.  Less successful there but some success.

Much depends on what the children endured before the placement. There are a couple fairly well documented sweet spots during which children who are otherwise normal find it easier to attach to new sets of caregivers. The ages of your really close friends' kids are within the earlier sweet spot, and adolescence is the other one.
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KelStache

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18767 on: September 27, 2017, 02:52:41 PM »
Re. adoption, my husband and I looked into adoption pretty seriously before we started trying for own.  International was far too expensive/long ($40K and 2-3 years wait), and locally all of the children were sibling groups, disabled, or older, which my husband and I didn't feel prepared to take on as first time parents.  We were told that infants come up very rarely, and when they do, their fees help to supplement care of the older children so will often be about $25K, in addition to understanding that many mothers will have been drinking or using drugs during pregnancy.

I think adoption is AMAZING, but for us it was not an equal option.  Of course nothing is guaranteed when having your own child, but it is costing us nothing (Canada), and we have the support in place if the child were to have a disability or other issues.

Edited to add an actual Overheard story:

At my office of 11 people I am the newest hire (and youngest by years).  Earlier this year when it was time to enroll in or change our pension contributions, we were told that only 3 people were registered!  That means 8 people, many approaching mid-career and retirement age, have been missing out on free matching for who knows how long!  Our investment options even include relatively low-fee options.  Mind boggling...

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18768 on: September 27, 2017, 05:00:59 PM »
Of course nothing is guaranteed when having your own child, but it is costing us nothing (Canada), and we have the support in place if the child were to have a disability or other issues.
I'm going to put my pedant hat on for a moment.  It *does* cost you something, it just doesn't cost you anything extra on top of the taxes you're already paying :)

kayvent

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18769 on: September 27, 2017, 05:09:55 PM »
Of course nothing is guaranteed when having your own child, but it is costing us nothing (Canada), and we have the support in place if the child were to have a disability or other issues.
I'm going to put my pedant hat on for a moment.  It *does* cost you something, it just doesn't cost you anything extra on top of the taxes you're already paying :)

It may not cost them much compared to be single without children.

I'm a single teenage parent (25 now but I think that term still applies) and every year I do a calculation to see what my child probably costs. This is for pure curiosity.

Compared to someone who is single, most years my child is an economic benefit. For example, my income taxes go down 4,200$, I collect child support (~5$/year), and the CCB gives me over 4500$. There are other benefits but those three alone match most of my child's costs. Over 18 years that is 160K, more than double MMM's frugal number. Some years it is a gain. Some years it is a small loss.

rdaneel0

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18770 on: September 27, 2017, 06:26:50 PM »
...

There's something so unique to the MMM experience for me about someone complaining about how they can't do something you're doing, even when you're in nearly identical situations. This person lives in my neighborhood, commutes on the same train, same job title, etc. They could easily get to work just as early as I do and pack breakfast and lunch and then LEAVE EARLY.

*sigh*

People do limit themselves a lot by thinking and talking about what they "can't" do when in reality they are perfectly capable of making different choices.

I recall a conversation with a co-worker who declared that he and his wife and kids "couldn't" make up a bunch of casseroles and freeze them in order to have healthy home-cooked meals that could be easily reheated. None of the "I can't do that because" statements made sense. Eventually I came to the conclusion that the guy liked the feeling of being trapped into making the decision he wanted to make, which was to get carry-out several nights per week and bitch about how expensive it was. He was making a dumb choice, and he knew it, but feeling trapped by the "impossible" other options allowed him to give himself permission.

Human beings do things for one reason, and for one reason only: to get what they want. This is composed of an intellectual part and an emotional part. The intellectual part is easy to understand: an action is either pleasant or desirable for its own sake, or it is a necessary step toward some other goal. The emotional part is more subtle. In order to set the action in motion the person has to give himself or herself permission to act. The action must feel reasonable, justifiable, or even necessary. That's where all the excuse making and bitchass logical fallacy comes in.

People rationalize, make excuses, and occasionally sabotage their own options to create circumstances wherein they "have no choice" except to take a particular course of action. It's one of the reasons why people "ostrich" (I stole that verb from someone else's thread, I forget whose) and refuse to take action until a decision is moot and only one option remains available. The default option, the most expensive option, or the only remaining option is the one they truly want, however they are unwilling to admit it. So they selectively ignore opportunities and shoot down alternate suggestions until the only course of action available is the one they've already decided on. In my colleague's case, he simply wanted to get take-out and bitch about the expense. He didn't want to actually save money and eat better. Now he was a generally mealy-mouthed individual who refused to own his own actions and decision making, preferring to blame his decisions on others or on circumstances he chose to believe were beyond his control.

Yes! You articulated that so well. I don't think I fully made that connection before now. Spot on!
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Civex

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18771 on: September 27, 2017, 06:34:04 PM »
I have a great one that really encapsulates the whole MMM-spirit, not just money.

Yesterday I left work at 3:15 ish, normal for me. We can work any hours we like and I come in early so I leave early. (Background: at my work we have to clock out for lunch, so we are not paid during lunch).

CW: You're so lucky you get to leave early.
Me: Well I got here at 7:00!
CW: Yeah and you never take lunch.
Me: What? I take a lunch break every day.
CW: Yeah, but yours aren't as long because you bring your lunch. I have to go out to buy something so I'm clocked out longer. Plus I hit rush hour coming here.
Me: Well yeah, that's part of why I work early hours, to avoid rush hour and cut down my commute. 
CW: *puzzled expression*

There's something so unique to the MMM experience for me about someone complaining about how they can't do something you're doing, even when you're in nearly identical situations. This person lives in my neighborhood, commutes on the same train, same job title, etc. They could easily get to work just as early as I do and pack breakfast and lunch and then LEAVE EARLY.

*sigh*

We don't clock out, but get a 30 minute unpaid lunch and two of my coworkers drive me crazy with it. They almost always eat out, and often are running back into the office 15 minutes late (delaying other employee lunches or meetings) and then proceed to eat their lunch at the their desk over the next 15. As they walk in, "Oh Subway was so busy, I had to wait in line for 15 minutes...) The rest of us who aren't crazy pack our lunches, eat them in ~15 minutes, and relax for 15 minutes before returning to work.

The two offenders also make >$130k and are always, "broke." Well, if you didn't spend ~$15/day for lunch...

KelStache

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18772 on: September 27, 2017, 06:52:13 PM »
Of course nothing is guaranteed when having your own child, but it is costing us nothing (Canada), and we have the support in place if the child were to have a disability or other issues.
I'm going to put my pedant hat on for a moment.  It *does* cost you something, it just doesn't cost you anything extra on top of the taxes you're already paying :)

I mean, yeah, I understand taxes, but we're talking about adoption versus birth costs here. I pay my taxes regardless of which option we choose.

lifeisanadventure

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18773 on: September 28, 2017, 03:55:31 AM »
Colleague bought a new car for $32,000 and with their loan package paid a total of $92,000 in interest/fees etc for this car over 5 years!

Finished paying off this loan so went and got a new $65,000 car, on loan!

JordanOfGilead

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18774 on: September 28, 2017, 06:26:42 AM »
I appreciate all of the feedback and information on the adoption situation. It's not as cut and dry as I assumed and my ignorance shows.
I will say, however, that my attitude toward this particular individual has a lot less to do with the IVF over adoption decision and more to do with how he talks about it. Everybody knows he didn't really want to have kids and it was all his wife's doing. He loves their daughter to the end of the world, but very little of the process had genuine input from him and he is out $45k in credit card debt for it. Blows my mind.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18775 on: September 28, 2017, 06:52:30 AM »
Colleague bought a new car for $32,000 and with their loan package paid a total of $92,000 in interest/fees etc for this car over 5 years!

I call B.S. on this.  $92K over 60 months on a $32K car = ~50% interest rate.  New car loans typically have interest rates under 2% currently.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18776 on: September 28, 2017, 07:19:03 AM »
Colleague bought a new car for $32,000 and with their loan package paid a total of $92,000 in interest/fees etc for this car over 5 years!

I call B.S. on this.  $92K over 60 months on a $32K car = ~50% interest rate.  New car loans typically have interest rates under 2% currently.

Unless you have really bad credit and/or are rolling over debt from being underwater on the loan on your trade-in?  I can see some ways to end up in that situation, for people who are that bad at managing money.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18777 on: September 28, 2017, 07:20:54 AM »
Colleague bought a new car for $32,000 and with their loan package paid a total of $92,000 in interest/fees etc for this car over 5 years!

I call B.S. on this.  $92K over 60 months on a $32K car = ~50% interest rate.  New car loans typically have interest rates under 2% currently.

2% is for someone with reasonable credit, if the credit was poor it could have been far higher. Or a previous car debt rolled in? Or they went crazy with the options and extended warranty as soon as it was combined into a monthly payment?

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18778 on: September 28, 2017, 07:33:06 AM »
Colleague bought a new car for $32,000 and with their loan package paid a total of $92,000 in interest/fees etc for this car over 5 years!

I call B.S. on this.  $92K over 60 months on a $32K car = ~50% interest rate.  New car loans typically have interest rates under 2% currently.

2% is for someone with reasonable credit, if the credit was poor it could have been far higher. Or a previous car debt rolled in? Or they went crazy with the options and extended warranty as soon as it was combined into a monthly payment?

Even so...40% interest rate?  Still doesn't pass the smell test.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18779 on: September 28, 2017, 07:47:53 AM »
Even so...40% interest rate?  Still doesn't pass the smell test.

If there was debt rolled in then it wouldn't be 40%, and if there were late fees, or a penalty interest rate?

My in-laws were paying 59% on a loan. Their credit is ... not good.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18780 on: September 28, 2017, 09:31:26 AM »
Even so...40% interest rate?  Still doesn't pass the smell test.

If there was debt rolled in then it wouldn't be 40%, and if there were late fees, or a penalty interest rate?

My in-laws were paying 59% on a loan. Their credit is ... not good.

My sister's current interest rate is 38% and she was $3k underwater on the car she traded in.  Once she rolled the tax and title fees into the loan she ended up with a $12k loan for an 8k used car....at 38% interest.   
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18781 on: September 28, 2017, 01:29:23 PM »
Even so...40% interest rate?  Still doesn't pass the smell test.

If there was debt rolled in then it wouldn't be 40%, and if there were late fees, or a penalty interest rate?

My in-laws were paying 59% on a loan. Their credit is ... not good.

My sister's current interest rate is 38% and she was $3k underwater on the car she traded in.  Once she rolled the tax and title fees into the loan she ended up with a $12k loan for an 8k used car....at 38% interest.

That sounds like it deserves it's own post in the "relatives that just don't get it" thread.

God knows they need something to pull them out of politics over there.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18782 on: September 28, 2017, 01:39:48 PM »
I don't know if I'm more shocked at the original math, the 50% interest rate, the skeptical BS call, or the testimony that, yes people do have rates that high....

And I did some research not long ago into subprime auto lending, and the huge percentage of people rolling unpaid debt from an old car into the new loan. Effectively, they are underwater from day 1.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18783 on: September 28, 2017, 06:15:47 PM »
This one is actually overheard from my dads work but is too juicy not to tell.

My dad works at a relatively small company and is one of the partners there. Due to them being small and competing against much bigger firms they need everyone to pull their own weight. They are severely overstaffed in some departments though. In one of those departments they employ a married couple who have been with the firm for close to 15 years. The husband was hired shortly after he successfully battled cancer and therefore had disability status. This grants employees special rights such as 5 additional paid days off and basically full protection from being laid off.

Throughout the years his performance became gradually worse and several other employees complained about work not being done in time and their work suffering because of him. This got to the point where they had one intern look back through the time management system only to find out that through a combination of sick days (which they would take at the same time) and home office (also taken at the same time) him and his wife only spend 40% of official work hours actually in the office. Management suggested to reduce his hours but he was not interested and due to him being protected by his status it was decided that more drastic action could not really be taken.

This kept going on for a few years until at another partner meeting it was suggested to check whether his disability status was actually still in place, with the cancer now being more than 15 years in the past. Turns out that he lost his disability status and therefore the special rights in 2009, which he was required by law to communicate to the firm. He proceeded to tell the boss that he told the secretary and she must have forgotten (a lie). His next move was to not show up for work since then, claiming to be sick. He is now being fired.

On top of using all additional paid days of and hiding behind the status of being unfireable he also lead the firm to commit fraud, because employers are required to employ a certain percentage of disabled people or pay a yearly fee. Since the firm thought they achieved that percentage they didn’t pay the fee for years.
And all of this behavior in a situation where he really can’t afford to lose his job. They have 3 cars, 2 motorbikes and a huge mortgaged house which they could barely finance to begin with. It's like they intentionally dug a huge hole that is really difficult to dig out of again and then went ahead and threw away their shovel.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18784 on: September 28, 2017, 06:56:46 PM »
This one is actually overheard from my dads work but is too juicy not to tell.

My dad works at a relatively small company and is one of the partners there. Due to them being small and competing against much bigger firms they need everyone to pull their own weight. They are severely overstaffed in some departments though. In one of those departments they employ a married couple who have been with the firm for close to 15 years. The husband was hired shortly after he successfully battled cancer and therefore had disability status. This grants employees special rights such as 5 additional paid days off and basically full protection from being laid off.

Throughout the years his performance became gradually worse and several other employees complained about work not being done in time and their work suffering because of him. This got to the point where they had one intern look back through the time management system only to find out that through a combination of sick days (which they would take at the same time) and home office (also taken at the same time) him and his wife only spend 40% of official work hours actually in the office. Management suggested to reduce his hours but he was not interested and due to him being protected by his status it was decided that more drastic action could not really be taken.

This kept going on for a few years until at another partner meeting it was suggested to check whether his disability status was actually still in place, with the cancer now being more than 15 years in the past. Turns out that he lost his disability status and therefore the special rights in 2009, which he was required by law to communicate to the firm. He proceeded to tell the boss that he told the secretary and she must have forgotten (a lie). His next move was to not show up for work since then, claiming to be sick. He is now being fired.

On top of using all additional paid days of and hiding behind the status of being unfireable he also lead the firm to commit fraud, because employers are required to employ a certain percentage of disabled people or pay a yearly fee. Since the firm thought they achieved that percentage they didn’t pay the fee for years.
And all of this behavior in a situation where he really can’t afford to lose his job. They have 3 cars, 2 motorbikes and a huge mortgaged house which they could barely finance to begin with. It's like they intentionally dug a huge hole that is really difficult to dig out of again and then went ahead and threw away their shovel.

Wow, which country is this? 

WerKater

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18785 on: September 29, 2017, 12:19:33 AM »
Wow, which country is this?
I am guessing: Germany.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18786 on: September 29, 2017, 04:45:58 AM »

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18787 on: September 29, 2017, 06:23:45 AM »
On top of using all additional paid days of and hiding behind the status of being unfireable he also lead the firm to commit fraud, because employers are required to employ a certain percentage of disabled people or pay a yearly fee. Since the firm thought they achieved that percentage they didn’t pay the fee for years.

This right here is on the company. They should be checking the status every year to ensure they are in compliance. Do they have a regulatory/compliance officer? I'm curious what else they might be non-compliant with and not realise it.

What's happening with the wife?

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18788 on: September 29, 2017, 06:41:47 AM »
Today we got a presentation of the new pension system our company wants to introduce. Mandatory for all new employees. We who already work here need to make a choice.

One of my young colleagues (under 30): I have never thought about pension. I am saving money to buy a Tesla.

I told her a bit about index funds and she wants me to show her sometime. That is a start.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18789 on: September 29, 2017, 01:24:19 PM »
All of my 20-something coworkers rushing to buy houses is so cringe-worthy.

One is 27. She can't seem to make ends meet without working overtime. She is obsessed with buying a house and constantly talks about how she needs to build equity instead of wasting money on rent. Her solution? A 0% down, 6% interest mortgage. The mortgage is advertised as "no PMI," but she doesn't seem to realize that a lower interest loan with PMI would end up cheaper. I tried to point that out, along with the fact that she won't be building much equity during the first several years of the mortgage due to the payments being mostly interest.

Seeing the type of people who are buying houses right now has kinda scared me away from real estate.

JoJo

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18790 on: September 29, 2017, 01:34:40 PM »
All of my 20-something coworkers rushing to buy houses is so cringe-worthy.

One is 27. She can't seem to make ends meet without working overtime. She is obsessed with buying a house and constantly talks about how she needs to build equity instead of wasting money on rent. Her solution? A 0% down, 6% interest mortgage. The mortgage is advertised as "no PMI," but she doesn't seem to realize that a lower interest loan with PMI would end up cheaper. I tried to point that out, along with the fact that she won't be building much equity during the first several years of the mortgage due to the payments being mostly interest.

Seeing the type of people who are buying houses right now has kinda scared me away from real estate.

Here we go again.  At least it's not interest only?

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18791 on: September 29, 2017, 02:30:50 PM »
All of my 20-something coworkers rushing to buy houses is so cringe-worthy.

One is 27. She can't seem to make ends meet without working overtime. She is obsessed with buying a house and constantly talks about how she needs to build equity instead of wasting money on rent. Her solution? A 0% down, 6% interest mortgage. The mortgage is advertised as "no PMI," but she doesn't seem to realize that a lower interest loan with PMI would end up cheaper. I tried to point that out, along with the fact that she won't be building much equity during the first several years of the mortgage due to the payments being mostly interest.

Seeing the type of people who are buying houses right now has kinda scared me away from real estate.

Does it have MIP though?

In all fairness, we (26 and 27 when we bought, 27 and 28 now) bought a house because we could no longer afford to rent. Seriously. Once you factored in the equity into the equation, we broke even after 2 years.

Of course, there are a ton of other factors that go into this, and in a slightly different situation we *could* have rented cheaper... but for us, after factoring in our commuting costs (including time) and everything else, it was cheaper to buy. Seems crazy to me too.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18792 on: September 29, 2017, 02:45:09 PM »
All of my 20-something coworkers rushing to buy houses is so cringe-worthy.

One is 27. She can't seem to make ends meet without working overtime. She is obsessed with buying a house and constantly talks about how she needs to build equity instead of wasting money on rent. Her solution? A 0% down, 6% interest mortgage. The mortgage is advertised as "no PMI," but she doesn't seem to realize that a lower interest loan with PMI would end up cheaper. I tried to point that out, along with the fact that she won't be building much equity during the first several years of the mortgage due to the payments being mostly interest.

Seeing the type of people who are buying houses right now has kinda scared me away from real estate.

Does it have MIP though?

In all fairness, we (26 and 27 when we bought, 27 and 28 now) bought a house because we could no longer afford to rent. Seriously. Once you factored in the equity into the equation, we broke even after 2 years.

Of course, there are a ton of other factors that go into this, and in a slightly different situation we *could* have rented cheaper... but for us, after factoring in our commuting costs (including time) and everything else, it was cheaper to buy. Seems crazy to me too.

I bought a 3/2 with garage and basement and my mortgage was around $600/mo, which was cheaper than anything I could rent (houses or apartments, even a dinky 1 bedroom shit hole on the shitty side of town).  The only thing cheaper would have been renting a room from someone, and not by much.  I didn't really understand the whole "rent vs buy" thing until well after I bought my house and talked to people in different geographic regions via the internet.  I always thought it was a stupid comparison because buying was the best option 100% of the time by a wide margin everywhere in my region (detroit metro).  Comparing apples to apples (ie house to house, not buying house vs renting apartment or something) renting was always at least twice as expensive as owing.  The only reason anyone  would ever rent is if they couldn't qualify to buy.  Or if you were going to live here short term and didn't want the hassle of buying and selling a property for the short term and were ok with spending thousands extra in rent over that period.  Even then in made sense IMO to buy and resell in 2-3 years and just eat the transaction fee since you'd still come out ahead .  Those were the only possible explanations of why someone would be renting in my area. 

We have friends renting a smaller house than ours less than a mile away in the same city and their rent is about $7k/yr more than my mortgage/insurance/taxes on my house.  Of course houses have appreciated some since we purchased, but it's still cheaper to buy.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18793 on: September 29, 2017, 02:54:05 PM »

... buying was the best option 100% of the time by a wide margin everywhere in my region (detroit metro). 

I think the anti-mustachian bit refers to people desperate to buy houses in areas where it would be unquestionably stupid to do so. For example, where I am, the average value of a house (AVERAGE!) is about $426,000. That's for detached. Condos are $209K plus condo fees. So even attempting to follow the '1%' rule of renting (if you were buying for investment) means you'd need to rent it out for $4.5K. Which is unheard of where I am- I'm currently renting a house worth about 380K for 1.5K/month. (Make sure not to tell the landlord he's made a terrible decision...)

So buying a house in Detroit metro is a very mustachian decision. Not necessarily everywhere, for sure.

I know I get super annoyed with co-workers giving me the weird looks when I tell them I still live with students and I'm full time employed. But for me, it's whatever builds the 'stache...
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18794 on: September 29, 2017, 03:43:00 PM »
On top of using all additional paid days of and hiding behind the status of being unfireable he also lead the firm to commit fraud, because employers are required to employ a certain percentage of disabled people or pay a yearly fee. Since the firm thought they achieved that percentage they didn’t pay the fee for years.

This right here is on the company. They should be checking the status every year to ensure they are in compliance. Do they have a regulatory/compliance officer? I'm curious what else they might be non-compliant with and not realise it.

What's happening with the wife?

I generally agree. They are however really small and have a rather informal company culture. It was expected that the employee would inform the company if there were any changes to his status, the same as all other employees try to act in the best interest of the company. They should have been more careful in checking that though. They have a flat hierarchy and a very reasonable person as CEO. If the employee had come to him at any point in the last 8 years, came clear that he lost his disability status and didn't tell them yet, explained the sitatution and apologised they 100% would not have fired him and tried to work something else out. He chose to hide that fact though and then when it was revealed tried to blame someone else that wasn't even involved.

The wife is fine. Despite the suspicious home office scheduling her work doesn't seem to suffer and there are no complaints from other employees about her work, so no reason that she shouldn't continue to work there. So far only the partners and the one accused secretary know of the whole drama with the husband though. I suspect the other employees who had to pick up the slack because of him will not be very warm towards her when they find out.

aperture

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18795 on: September 29, 2017, 06:04:24 PM »
Guy in the office next to me had a seizure at his desk yesterday. Today we found out he had experienced a hemorrhagic stroke. Presently he remains in a coma - status unknown.  I helped search his office for the keys to his brand new crew cab Toyota Tundra sitting out in the parking lot. 

Sad, scary, ironic. Best wishes to all you, aperture.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18796 on: October 01, 2017, 07:33:21 AM »
All of my 20-something coworkers rushing to buy houses is so cringe-worthy.

One is 27. She can't seem to make ends meet without working overtime. She is obsessed with buying a house and constantly talks about how she needs to build equity instead of wasting money on rent. Her solution? A 0% down, 6% interest mortgage. The mortgage is advertised as "no PMI," but she doesn't seem to realize that a lower interest loan with PMI would end up cheaper. I tried to point that out, along with the fact that she won't be building much equity during the first several years of the mortgage due to the payments being mostly interest.

Seeing the type of people who are buying houses right now has kinda scared me away from real estate.

Here we go again.  At least it's not interest only?

I have a young coworker with three children who just purchased a house.  She had some emergency medical issues right before they started looking, which depleted their downpayment fund, so she was worried that they wouldn't qualify with such a small downpayment percentage.  Since it was their first house, they did qualify even with something like a 2.5% downpayment, but then they went out and bought all new furniture so their house would look grown-up.  I'm not certain at all where the money for all the furniture is supposed to come from :(

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18797 on: October 01, 2017, 09:01:34 AM »
All of my 20-something coworkers rushing to buy houses is so cringe-worthy.

One is 27. She can't seem to make ends meet without working overtime. She is obsessed with buying a house and constantly talks about how she needs to build equity instead of wasting money on rent. Her solution? A 0% down, 6% interest mortgage. The mortgage is advertised as "no PMI," but she doesn't seem to realize that a lower interest loan with PMI would end up cheaper. I tried to point that out, along with the fact that she won't be building much equity during the first several years of the mortgage due to the payments being mostly interest.

Seeing the type of people who are buying houses right now has kinda scared me away from real estate.

Here we go again.  At least it's not interest only?

I have a young coworker with three children who just purchased a house.  She had some emergency medical issues right before they started looking, which depleted their downpayment fund, so she was worried that they wouldn't qualify with such a small downpayment percentage.  Since it was their first house, they did qualify even with something like a 2.5% downpayment, but then they went out and bought all new furniture so their house would look grown-up.  I'm not certain at all where the money for all the furniture is supposed to come from :(

Sometimes I worry if we'll be able to get a 20% downpayment together when we want to buy (most of our savings is currently going into tax-deferred options, and I don't want to pull anything out of that if possible), and we start nervously discussing if we'd be comfortable going ahead with 15% or even 10% down.  Then I read something like this, and feel better about myself :P

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18798 on: October 01, 2017, 11:31:32 AM »
Sometimes I worry if we'll be able to get a 20% downpayment together when we want to buy (most of our savings is currently going into tax-deferred options, and I don't want to pull anything out of that if possible), and we start nervously discussing if we'd be comfortable going ahead with 15% or even 10% down.  Then I read something like this, and feel better about myself :P

I have quite a few friends that have tackled 20% down payments on their respective homes. Each one was always focused on removing any prospective PMI payments.

However PMI is based on credit-worthiness, and the required payments can vary quite a huge amount, and is definitely based on how close the actual downpayment is to 20%.

In our case, we put down 10% on a $450k home. Our PMI payment is $101/mo or $1212/yr or ~2.7%. The mortgage is 3.625%. Combined that is 6.325%

The effective overal interest rate on our home is 3.895% for the next 7 years, until the PMI drops off.

If I had an additional $45k, would I have put it down against my home to remove PMI? Maybe...
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Pooperman

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18799 on: October 01, 2017, 01:43:49 PM »
Sometimes I worry if we'll be able to get a 20% downpayment together when we want to buy (most of our savings is currently going into tax-deferred options, and I don't want to pull anything out of that if possible), and we start nervously discussing if we'd be comfortable going ahead with 15% or even 10% down.  Then I read something like this, and feel better about myself :P

I have quite a few friends that have tackled 20% down payments on their respective homes. Each one was always focused on removing any prospective PMI payments.

However PMI is based on credit-worthiness, and the required payments can vary quite a huge amount, and is definitely based on how close the actual downpayment is to 20%.

In our case, we put down 10% on a $450k home. Our PMI payment is $101/mo or $1212/yr or ~2.7%. The mortgage is 3.625%. Combined that is 6.325%

The effective overal interest rate on our home is 3.895% for the next 7 years, until the PMI drops off.

If I had an additional $45k, would I have put it down against my home to remove PMI? Maybe...

Our PMI is about $70 on a 200k loan. It was 5% down with a rate of 3.25%.