Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 7603087 times)

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18700 on: September 20, 2017, 10:20:27 AM »
MgoSam is the accountant version of bloodninja.

Jesus, there's an old and obscure geek reference I haven't heard in a while.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18701 on: September 20, 2017, 10:30:51 AM »
Bringing back some orange foam, from maybe not even this thread.  There was discussion about leaving your car running while pumping gas...  Over the weekend I got some gas, and a police officer did the same, but kept his car running while he got his.  So I'm guessing it's at least legal to do.

All the gas stations here have signs that tell you to turn off the engine.  Also to ground yourself - which I figure I do when I get out of the car and touch the gas pump.

Plus if you search on-line for this there are emission control systems and gas vapour control systems that get messed up if you always fill up the car while running.
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I'm a red panda

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18702 on: September 20, 2017, 10:51:25 AM »
Not anti-mustachian but at work:

Our work has 3 breakrooms with fridges in each.  So many people are bringing their lunches they had to put a second fridge in each breakroom.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18703 on: September 20, 2017, 10:57:59 AM »
CW #1 (having issues with his '14 truck that he bought certified a year ago): Man, this (whatever issue is going on) should be covered.  I just bought it a year ago!

CW #2: That's why I always lease.  The best insurance policy money can buy, baby!

Me in my head: :facepalm:

Later in the day, 529 plans come up:

CW #1: I checked and we have about $40K saved up for our daughter, who goes off to college in five years.  I'm worried it's not enough.

CW #2: That's great, man!  We only put away $25/month for each of the (two) kids.

CW #2: In fact, I talked to DW about my bonus coming up if we should set that aside for the kids' college fund and she just laughed and said, "No **** that."
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 01:56:20 PM by DarkandStormy »
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MgoSam

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18704 on: September 20, 2017, 01:51:11 PM »
MgoSam is the accountant version of bloodninja.

.... Wow. I've seen references to "I put on my robe and wizard hat" before and now I finally understand it!

Me too, now I know where that comes from. #themoreyouknow

economista

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18705 on: September 20, 2017, 03:23:29 PM »

Overall, I'd say only five to ten percent of the women who can afford it were wearing fake nails. The ones who do, tend to be concentrated either in entertainment-related industries where a high maintenance appearance is considered necessary, or in very low-end service jobs where it's important to hide dirt that may be under the fingernails.

I just had this conversation (argument) with my mom.  I got married a few weeks ago and I invited my mom and sister to go with me the morning of the wedding to get our nails done.  In my mind, getting your nails done means a little polish on the fingernails, and a professional person filing them so they are the same length and look nice.  To my mom and sister, "nails done" means fake nail monstrosities that look stupid and cost a crapload of money.  My mom threw a fit when I said I wasn't getting fake nails, and I kept telling her I didn't want them, and she kept saying I had to.  I finally lost my temper and told her I think fake nails are extremely trashy, because you only see low-class people with fake nails.  (My meaning was low-class in terms of personality, not only in terms of finances).  Then she pouted because I hurt her feelings, but I did it because she wouldn't stop pushing.  And it's true!  You never see successful, professional women with fake nails. 
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TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18706 on: September 20, 2017, 04:19:22 PM »

Overall, I'd say only five to ten percent of the women who can afford it were wearing fake nails. The ones who do, tend to be concentrated either in entertainment-related industries where a high maintenance appearance is considered necessary, or in very low-end service jobs where it's important to hide dirt that may be under the fingernails.

I just had this conversation (argument) with my mom.  I got married a few weeks ago and I invited my mom and sister to go with me the morning of the wedding to get our nails done.  In my mind, getting your nails done means a little polish on the fingernails, and a professional person filing them so they are the same length and look nice.  To my mom and sister, "nails done" means fake nail monstrosities that look stupid and cost a crapload of money.  My mom threw a fit when I said I wasn't getting fake nails, and I kept telling her I didn't want them, and she kept saying I had to.  I finally lost my temper and told her I think fake nails are extremely trashy, because you only see low-class people with fake nails.  (My meaning was low-class in terms of personality, not only in terms of finances).  Then she pouted because I hurt her feelings, but I did it because she wouldn't stop pushing.  And it's true!  You never see successful, professional women with fake nails.

That's because a well done professional manicure sold to a wealthy woman doesn't look fake. The goal of such a manicure is to make her look good by ensuring her nails look flawless and attractively trimmed and polished. I no doubt missed some of these manicures during my study, misclassifying them as "real". Such a manicure is just as expensive as the flashy kind, but the person who gets it is expected to be able to afford it and doesn't have anything to prove by using nouveau-riche status symbols that say: "look at me, I've got money!"

The only people who buy flashy professional manicures and pedicures are people who are insecure about their money. They may be able to afford it (or not), but unfortunately they give a fuck about about the opinions of people who aren't important. Hence the need to attract attention by buying conspicuous consumption items.
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Megma

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18707 on: September 20, 2017, 04:56:02 PM »

Overall, I'd say only five to ten percent of the women who can afford it were wearing fake nails. The ones who do, tend to be concentrated either in entertainment-related industries where a high maintenance appearance is considered necessary, or in very low-end service jobs where it's important to hide dirt that may be under the fingernails.

I just had this conversation (argument) with my mom.  I got married a few weeks ago and I invited my mom and sister to go with me the morning of the wedding to get our nails done.  In my mind, getting your nails done means a little polish on the fingernails, and a professional person filing them so they are the same length and look nice.  To my mom and sister, "nails done" means fake nail monstrosities that look stupid and cost a crapload of money.  My mom threw a fit when I said I wasn't getting fake nails, and I kept telling her I didn't want them, and she kept saying I had to.  I finally lost my temper and told her I think fake nails are extremely trashy, because you only see low-class people with fake nails.  (My meaning was low-class in terms of personality, not only in terms of finances).  Then she pouted because I hurt her feelings, but I did it because she wouldn't stop pushing.  And it's true!  You never see successful, professional women with fake nails.

That's because a well done professional manicure sold to a wealthy woman doesn't look fake. The goal of such a manicure is to make her look good by ensuring her nails look flawless and attractively trimmed and polished. I no doubt missed some of these manicures during my study, misclassifying them as "real". Such a manicure is just as expensive as the flashy kind, but the person who gets it is expected to be able to afford it and doesn't have anything to prove by using nouveau-riche status symbols that say: "look at me, I've got money!"

The only people who buy flashy professional manicures and pedicures are people who are insecure about their money. They may be able to afford it (or not), but unfortunately they give a fuck about about the opinions of people who aren't important. Hence the need to attract attention by buying conspicuous consumption items.

Agreed. In my circles (professional office women) no one has fake/acrylic nails but shellac/gel manicures are really popular. It's a professionally applied and long lasting nail polish on your real nails. It's just as expensive as fake nails (~40$ a pop) but it looks great for about 3 weeks (compared to 5 days for normal polish).

I'll get it done if i have to travel for work and need it look good for a whole week of meetings. Especially since this happens once or twice a year (People can think i look good all the time, since they rarely see me lol).

But i have a coworker who has it done every 2 weeks or so. She got it done so much that over the summer her salon made her take a break because her nails had thinnedtoo much from it they refused to do it for her.

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18708 on: September 20, 2017, 05:14:40 PM »
CW #2: That's great, man!  We only put away $25/month for each of the (two) kids.

Are the kids planning on starting college in their 70s?

frugalnacho

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18709 on: September 20, 2017, 11:37:52 PM »
CW #2: That's great, man!  We only put away $25/month for each of the (two) kids.

Are the kids planning on starting college in their 70s?

They get 1 college credit on the bank of dad, the rest they pay for themselves.

MrMoogle

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18710 on: September 21, 2017, 07:34:21 AM »
CW #2: That's great, man!  We only put away $25/month for each of the (two) kids.

Are the kids planning on starting college in their 70s?

They get 1 college credit on the bank of dad, the rest they pay for themselves.
My parents saved $100/month for me (thank you Mom and Dad!)...in the 80s, and that got me through 3 years of out of state tuition.  Inflation adjusted that's like $210/month now assuming 2.5% inflation.  But the price of college has increased more than inflation, although of course you don't have to do out of state.  So yeah, that might get a semester paid for.

My dad wanted me to go to his alma mater, it was a great fit, and he was paying for it, so I did.  I was pretty frugal already, so I definitely would have done something less expensive if I was paying for it.

Drifterrider

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18711 on: September 21, 2017, 09:06:42 AM »
^^Surely vehicle weight and miles driven are correlated with petrol ("gas") used. So tax petrol and use it to maintain roads.

... for now. But with the advent of electric cars, this will no longer be the case:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty
I know that in some countries, governments are considering taxing car use for road improvement by requiring recording devices in every car, that report the distance driven each month.

Fair enough, but it's still the case NOW and American petrol is known for being ridiculously cheap so they could easily jack up the tax on that for the time being.

No.  You guys are just used to paying very high taxes so when you see someone who isn't you mistake it for cheap rather than your prices as expensive.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18712 on: September 21, 2017, 10:01:18 AM »
^^Surely vehicle weight and miles driven are correlated with petrol ("gas") used. So tax petrol and use it to maintain roads.

... for now. But with the advent of electric cars, this will no longer be the case:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty
I know that in some countries, governments are considering taxing car use for road improvement by requiring recording devices in every car, that report the distance driven each month.

Fair enough, but it's still the case NOW and American petrol is known for being ridiculously cheap so they could easily jack up the tax on that for the time being.

No.  You guys are just used to paying very high taxes so when you see someone who isn't you mistake it for cheap rather than your prices as expensive.
In Saudi Arabia it's around $.50/gallon. Silly Americans for paying 5 times market rate!

TreesBikesLove

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18713 on: September 21, 2017, 11:47:38 AM »

No.  You guys are just used to paying very high taxes so when you see someone who isn't you mistake it for cheap rather than your prices as expensive.

Silly Yuropeens pricing their commodities at a cost that is high enough to pay for the infrastructure damage caused by that commodity.

RidetheRain

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18714 on: September 21, 2017, 12:46:12 PM »

No.  You guys are just used to paying very high taxes so when you see someone who isn't you mistake it for cheap rather than your prices as expensive.

Silly Yuropeens pricing their commodities at a cost that is high enough to pay for the infrastructure damage caused by that commodity.

I don't know if that's quite accurate either. I think it's more of a difference between Europeans and Americans on who is responsible for infrastructure. After all, roads get fixed and built either way. Europe puts most of the burden on drivers who break down the roads and value longer-term solutions (ie roads that last longer). Americans put less burden on drivers and add in some property taxes with the understanding that property values will increase with good infrastructure regardless of an individual owner's usage of those services. Additionally, Americans put more value on easy fixes that may not last as long, but put more low-income jobs on the table which can benefit the community as well. I don't think either is absolutely wrong - just a fundamentally different views.
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wauske

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18715 on: September 21, 2017, 01:25:08 PM »
And the colleague who bought them just told me she keeps borrowing money from her 10-year-old daughter's piggy bank to pay bills.

That's stealing. I don't care it's a 10-year-old or a family member or that she probably gave her the money anyway. That's stealing. What a wonderful lesson this little girl is going to learn.
I do this sometimes but only to borrow when I'm short on cash and always return at least the same in paper money (usually more). We counted the piggy bank recently and it was over € 100. Not bad for a 4 year Old's piggy bank :)
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JordanOfGilead

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18716 on: September 21, 2017, 01:30:38 PM »
Person at work talking about how her kid HAS to go to a private Catholic school, which costs $18,000 PER YEAR up to 6th grade, then over $20,000 per year for 7th through 12th. I chimed in that the entirety of my 5 year college education required me to take out $22,000 in student loans, and even then I could have done it for less. The response I got was "Well you have to understand that with a school like this, you get what you pay for."

Absolutely ridiculous.

cheapass

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18717 on: September 21, 2017, 01:49:33 PM »
Person at work talking about how her kid HAS to go to a private Catholic school, which costs $18,000 PER YEAR up to 6th grade, then over $20,000 per year for 7th through 12th. I chimed in that the entirety of my 5 year college education required me to take out $22,000 in student loans, and even then I could have done it for less. The response I got was "Well you have to understand that with a school like this, you get what you pay for."

Absolutely ridiculous.

Hope that kid graduates high school and immediately lands a $300K/year job
Every single decision you make with money either shortens or lengthens your working career.

tyort1

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18718 on: September 21, 2017, 01:52:42 PM »
Person at work talking about how her kid HAS to go to a private Catholic school, which costs $18,000 PER YEAR up to 6th grade, then over $20,000 per year for 7th through 12th. I chimed in that the entirety of my 5 year college education required me to take out $22,000 in student loans, and even then I could have done it for less. The response I got was "Well you have to understand that with a school like this, you get what you pay for."

Absolutely ridiculous.

Hope that kid graduates high school and immediately lands a $300K/year job

The problem with private schools is that they immediately turn your kids into a 'product', and makes their school experience way more competitive and less enjoyable.  I mean, look at this example - if their kids don't turn out to be top performers, did the parents "get what they paid for"?  I'd hate to be their kid in that situation.
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idahofire

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18719 on: September 21, 2017, 06:33:04 PM »
I was at work yesterday and overheard a coworker talking about a mistaken order she made on Amazon with her regular checking account instead of her credit card. She was freaking out because she's like, "There's no way it would go through, especially 2 days before payday!" Kind of shocking that a woman who is 50 years old and makes about $60k a year wouldn't have sufficient funds to cover a $200 mistake. Insane.

Megma

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18720 on: September 21, 2017, 07:04:20 PM »
I was at work yesterday and overheard a coworker talking about a mistaken order she made on Amazon with her regular checking account instead of her credit card. She was freaking out because she's like, "There's no way it would go through, especially 2 days before payday!" Kind of shocking that a woman who is 50 years old and makes about $60k a year wouldn't have sufficient funds to cover a $200 mistake. Insane.

Omg. I would just be upset that I hadn't used my 5% back Amazon card.

Rife

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18721 on: September 22, 2017, 07:03:23 AM »
CW #1 (having issues with his '14 truck that he bought certified a year ago): Man, this (whatever issue is going on) should be covered.  I just bought it a year ago!

CW #2: That's why I always lease.  The best insurance policy money can buy, baby!

Me in my head: :facepalm:

Later in the day, 529 plans come up:

CW #1: I checked and we have about $40K saved up for our daughter, who goes off to college in five years.  I'm worried it's not enough.

CW #2: That's great, man!  We only put away $25/month for each of the (two) kids.

CW #2: In fact, I talked to DW about my bonus coming up if we should set that aside for the kids' college fund and she just laughed and said, "No **** that."

At least someone gave you a positive response. We typically have to defend our 529. Most say their kids can fend for themselves. as much as people complain about student loans they really don't like the idea of saving money they could be spending on themselves.

I have a few, a guy retired recently at 55, and it has been a common topic. The new office saying is "You could retire at 55 like Bob if you have no kids"(see Bob could only pull off this miracle cause he has no kids). One guy actually said "or if you inherit a lot of money, people do it that way also". Keep in mind, Bob has a huge pension and a retiree medical plan.

My co-worker was describing his new life insurance policy that only cost 6000 dollars a year for 21 years, and while it doesn't pay much now it stays with him after the 21 years (unlike that term insurance). He is unmarried with no kids in his 30s. I didn't get into it, but if I invested that much it would also stay with me for life, grow bigger and...not be tied up in whole life.

Health insurance came up. This year our company is paying the full deductible into an HSA (2600 for a family), and then I explained that you can save money tax free on top of that etc. While there was a bit of interest they couldn't understand why you would want to save more than the annual out of pocket max (since then it is just trapped you see). I tried to explain that money saved can be used after you aren't working anymore but this met with blank stares. I am fairly sure the worry wasn't taking money from their other investments but less to spend on ski trips.
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cheapass

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18722 on: September 22, 2017, 09:28:55 AM »
Health insurance came up. This year our company is paying the full deductible into an HSA (2600 for a family), and then I explained that you can save money tax free on top of that etc. While there was a bit of interest they couldn't understand why you would want to save more than the annual out of pocket max (since then it is just trapped you see). I tried to explain that money saved can be used after you aren't working anymore but this met with blank stares. I am fairly sure the worry wasn't taking money from their other investments but less to spend on ski trips.

I was talking about health insurance with my brother-in-law and he mentioned how much he had to spend every year on the kids and that he usually doesn't even meet his deductible. I suggested he contribute at least his expected spend into a HSA so his medical costs would be tax free.

"Yeah, it'd be nice to put it in an account like that but you have to have money to live too.."

...but you're going to be spending that money anyway... i just... the logic..
Every single decision you make with money either shortens or lengthens your working career.

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18723 on: September 22, 2017, 09:35:59 AM »
Not anti-mustachian but at work:

Our work has 3 breakrooms with fridges in each.  So many people are bringing their lunches they had to put a second fridge in each breakroom.

Now the power bill is through the roof!!! Clearly your company should provide catered meals for lunch daily. :-p

RidetheRain

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18724 on: September 22, 2017, 09:38:57 AM »
Health insurance came up. This year our company is paying the full deductible into an HSA (2600 for a family), and then I explained that you can save money tax free on top of that etc. While there was a bit of interest they couldn't understand why you would want to save more than the annual out of pocket max (since then it is just trapped you see). I tried to explain that money saved can be used after you aren't working anymore but this met with blank stares. I am fairly sure the worry wasn't taking money from their other investments but less to spend on ski trips.

I was talking about health insurance with my brother-in-law and he mentioned how much he had to spend every year on the kids and that he usually doesn't even meet his deductible. I suggested he contribute at least his expected spend into a HSA so his medical costs would be tax free.

"Yeah, it'd be nice to put it in an account like that but you have to have money to live too.."

...but you're going to be spending that money anyway... i just... the logic..

See what I think he was saying that is that he likes giving money to the government. Some people love taxes so much that they just want to pay extra!

In reality, this sounds like a case of What-If for him. Some people are chronically worried that they will over-save and have "spent" money poorly.
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marielle

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18725 on: September 22, 2017, 10:07:58 AM »
Just remembered something that annoys me... I remember a coworker talking about how he'll save for a while but then he buys a new gun or whatever.

In short I learned that his definition of saving (and many others) is putting some extra money away in your bank and not spending it before your next paycheck. Makes no sense. Maybe I could see it if you are saving for a house (or maybe even a car), but if you're about to buy a $1000 camera that doesn't count as savings... That's just delayed spending.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18726 on: September 22, 2017, 10:42:18 AM »
Just remembered something that annoys me... I remember a coworker talking about how he'll save for a while but then he buys a new gun or whatever.

In short I learned that his definition of saving (and many others) is putting some extra money away in your bank and not spending it before your next paycheck. Makes no sense. Maybe I could see it if you are saving for a house (or maybe even a car), but if you're about to buy a $1000 camera that doesn't count as savings... That's just delayed spending.

I get it.  It's called "saving up for" which is different from "saving"

OHOT, you could say all the money I saved was just delayed spending if the 4% rule works out perfectly and I run out of money on my death bed.

dougules

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18727 on: September 22, 2017, 11:30:24 AM »

No.  You guys are just used to paying very high taxes so when you see someone who isn't you mistake it for cheap rather than your prices as expensive.

Silly Yuropeens pricing their commodities at a cost that is high enough to pay for the infrastructure damage caused by that commodity.

I don't know if that's quite accurate either. I think it's more of a difference between Europeans and Americans on who is responsible for infrastructure. After all, roads get fixed and built either way. Europe puts most of the burden on drivers who break down the roads and value longer-term solutions (ie roads that last longer). Americans put less burden on drivers and add in some property taxes with the understanding that property values will increase with good infrastructure regardless of an individual owner's usage of those services. Additionally, Americans put more value on easy fixes that may not last as long, but put more low-income jobs on the table which can benefit the community as well. I don't think either is absolutely wrong - just a fundamentally different views.

I don't think it's just a difference.  Paying for roads out of the general fund takes away balance from transportation infrastructure.  People demand bigger roads, faster roads, and more roads because the bill is disconnected from actual use.  Our city recently passed a 1 cent sales tax hike to pay to widen roads that mostly benefit people that don't even live within the city limits.  I pay ~1% more for everything I buy even when I'm walking to the store.  I'm trying to be frugal, but paying for superfluous road construction out of the general fund is undermining me.  If we taxed gas proportionally to road spending, I think it would reduce at least a little of the ridiculousness.   Or at least I wouldn't have to pay for it.   

TomTX

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18728 on: September 23, 2017, 09:10:16 AM »
^^Surely vehicle weight and miles driven are correlated with petrol ("gas") used. So tax petrol and use it to maintain roads.

... for now. But with the advent of electric cars, this will no longer be the case:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty
I know that in some countries, governments are considering taxing car use for road improvement by requiring recording devices in every car, that report the distance driven each month.

Damage does correlate with miles driven, but it correlates with weight to the 4th power so when you double weight, you increase damage by 16x.

Cars do cause congestion, but the damage is negligible compared to trucks.
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zolotiyeruki

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18729 on: September 23, 2017, 03:04:03 PM »
^^Surely vehicle weight and miles driven are correlated with petrol ("gas") used. So tax petrol and use it to maintain roads.

... for now. But with the advent of electric cars, this will no longer be the case:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty
I know that in some countries, governments are considering taxing car use for road improvement by requiring recording devices in every car, that report the distance driven each month.
Damage does correlate with miles driven, but it correlates with weight to the 4th power so when you double weight, you increase damage by 16x.

Cars do cause congestion, but the damage is negligible compared to trucks.
I've heard before that trucks cause much more damage than passenger vehicles, but do you have a reference where I could learn more about it?

Paul der Krake

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18730 on: September 23, 2017, 03:37:32 PM »
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/reports/tswstudy/TSWwp3.pdf

Alternatively, look at the pavement near a bus stop.

Goldielocks

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18731 on: September 23, 2017, 03:44:06 PM »
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/reports/tswstudy/TSWwp3.pdf

Alternatively, look at the pavement near a bus stop.

grr... I scanned the entire document looking for the reference to bus stop pavement design!!!!

RetiredAt63

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18732 on: September 23, 2017, 04:41:31 PM »
^^Surely vehicle weight and miles driven are correlated with petrol ("gas") used. So tax petrol and use it to maintain roads.

... for now. But with the advent of electric cars, this will no longer be the case:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty
I know that in some countries, governments are considering taxing car use for road improvement by requiring recording devices in every car, that report the distance driven each month.
Damage does correlate with miles driven, but it correlates with weight to the 4th power so when you double weight, you increase damage by 16x.

Cars do cause congestion, but the damage is negligible compared to trucks.
I've heard before that trucks cause much more damage than passenger vehicles, but do you have a reference where I could learn more about it?

I can see truck tire grooves in major highways, the damage is obvious.  Plus there is a reason for weight restrictions during thaw.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18733 on: September 24, 2017, 02:00:54 AM »
^^Surely vehicle weight and miles driven are correlated with petrol ("gas") used. So tax petrol and use it to maintain roads.

... for now. But with the advent of electric cars, this will no longer be the case:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/26/treasury-tax-electric-cars-vat-fuel-duty
I know that in some countries, governments are considering taxing car use for road improvement by requiring recording devices in every car, that report the distance driven each month.
Damage does correlate with miles driven, but it correlates with weight to the 4th power so when you double weight, you increase damage by 16x.

Cars do cause congestion, but the damage is negligible compared to trucks.
I've heard before that trucks cause much more damage than passenger vehicles, but do you have a reference where I could learn more about it?

Have you ever seen an ancient Roman's road?
They all have two big grooves because of the wagons driving on them for centuries, but not from the far more people walking on them.

Same applies to cars and trucks on modern roads. You could build a road that sustains even trucks, but you would not like to use it (would have to be harder) and it would be far more expensive. We do have something similar though, its called railway.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18734 on: September 25, 2017, 07:48:24 AM »
Noticed that a co-worker had replaced his old RAM 1500 with a new one.

Me "Nice truck!"
Him: "Thanks. The old one, a 2010, was costing me too much."
Me: "Gas guzzler right? This one any better?"
Him: "No. A/C went bad in the old one, cost $3000 to fix. Then some other stuff cost $2000."
Me: "How much repair have you had in the past?"
Him: "None. No issues until a couple of months back."
Me: "Enjoy!"

The new truck is a RAM 1500 Laramie Longhorn that starts just under $50k, with HEMI, two-tone color, crew cab, etc. I know he has money issues, military retirement income in addition to his DoD contractor pay, his wife refuses to work, he's leased a Lexus GS for her, commute is 40-something miles each way, I could go on.

So he couldn't afford to pay $5000 for repairs that would add more years to a 2010 model, but is probably on a 84-month payment plan. If he qualified for the 0.9% APR, it'd be $565/month. Plus he'll continue bitching about gas prices (post-Irma they are $2.59/gal today for regular). Also, he needed 10% down payment to qualify for the low APR financing offer. A lease would have cost him $513/month.

The saddest part is that he hates his job and is always saying he wants to retire and fish.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18735 on: September 25, 2017, 08:39:39 AM »
Technically this is a former colleague.

They have lived in their house for over 10 years, and had a basement tenant the whole time. About 6 months ago they had sewer backup issues, so the tenant moved out, and they have been renovating (covered mostly by insurance).  Apparently the whole time they've been spending the rent as income, not putting anything aside as a contingency. He has a good job (probably 150k+/year for at least the last 5 years), and his SO is a real estate agent in the GTA, so if they aren't doing well, they are really screwing up somewhere.

But apparently they "need" to increase the tenant's rent from 975 to 1500 immediately, they can't make the numbers work otherwise.  Granted, 975 monthly on the subway line is a screaming deal, but I don't get how this is a make or break issue.  Ignoring that they are not permitted to raise rent that much.

During the same discussion I learned that they replaced their stove in their kitchen because the old one was white, and everything else is stainless. My former colleague estimates that they have used it more frequently over the past four months to cook chicken as treats for their 2 small dogs than to cook food for humans.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18736 on: September 25, 2017, 09:49:54 AM »
During the same discussion I learned that they replaced their stove in their kitchen because the old one was white, and everything else is stainless. My former colleague estimates that they have used it more frequently over the past four months to cook chicken as treats for their 2 small dogs than to cook food for humans.
I've definitely a noticed an often inverse relationship between kitchen appliance spending (amounts but especially frequency) and time spent using said appliances.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18737 on: September 25, 2017, 09:58:34 AM »
During the same discussion I learned that they replaced their stove in their kitchen because the old one was white, and everything else is stainless. My former colleague estimates that they have used it more frequently over the past four months to cook chicken as treats for their 2 small dogs than to cook food for humans.
I've definitely a noticed an often inverse relationship between kitchen appliance spending (amounts but especially frequency) and time spent using said appliances.

I wonder how many people would be perfectly fine with no kitchen at all in their house.

But imagine how disgusted they would be if you suggested to them to buy/rent a house with no kitchen or missing large appliances.

Sure you may be spending a lot on food when eating out, but you could at least offset that by not having a kitchen at all and saving thousands there...

RidetheRain

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18738 on: September 25, 2017, 02:26:58 PM »
During the same discussion I learned that they replaced their stove in their kitchen because the old one was white, and everything else is stainless. My former colleague estimates that they have used it more frequently over the past four months to cook chicken as treats for their 2 small dogs than to cook food for humans.
I've definitely a noticed an often inverse relationship between kitchen appliance spending (amounts but especially frequency) and time spent using said appliances.

I wonder how many people would be perfectly fine with no kitchen at all in their house.

But imagine how disgusted they would be if you suggested to them to buy/rent a house with no kitchen or missing large appliances.

Sure you may be spending a lot on food when eating out, but you could at least offset that by not having a kitchen at all and saving thousands there...

"Hilarious" quote from my apartment maintenance when I told them the stove was broken and I needed a replacement:

"This can't be ordinary wear and tear, you'd need to be cooking every day!"

...yes? I live here, remember?
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Miss Piggy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18739 on: September 25, 2017, 07:12:08 PM »

"This can't be ordinary wear and tear, you'd need to be cooking every day!"

...yes? I live here, remember?

Well, I sure hope "daily use of stove" was allowed according to your lease!

shanghaiMMM

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18740 on: September 25, 2017, 09:28:32 PM »
I'm not sure this classes as anti-mustachian, but I wanted to share it anyway.

One of my colleagues is Shanghainese. She bought an apartment about 20 years ago and a second 15 years ago with her husband. They both then inherited apartments from both sets of parents. Somewhere along the way, they got a fifth apartment.

When she told me all this, my jaw hit the floor. I know Shanghai prices are sky-high (hers range from $600,000 for the smallest, to $1.5m for the biggest), but the shock was that she is still working at all! She is a multi-millionaire teacher!

She says she needs to keep working for at least 8 years to pay for private school fees for her son, but I'm fairly sure she could cover those pretty easily if she needed to. She was off for a while last year with stress so I don't think she's sticking around for the love of it.

Mustachian for having such a huge NW? Anti for not pulling the trigger? I'm not sure, but I thought it was a pretty interesting story to hear.
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Bright Lights

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18741 on: September 25, 2017, 09:59:32 PM »
...

Then it turns out him and his wife can't get pregnant. She absolutely HAS to have a child that she birthed (adoption is out of the question despite their strong Christian, "love everybody" outlook on things), so 3 rounds of IVF at $15k a pop, all put on credit cards.

...

I normally just lurk but I wanted to comment on this. I know it's just a throwaway jab, but it's rubbing me the wrong way. I'm going to be doing IVF next month so I get my hackles up about this topic much more easily than the average person, but one of my big annoyances is how judgmental people get about the choice to try for a biological child only AFTER they realize that you're going to need medical assistance. "Why don't you just adopt?" is basically the center square in the game of infertility Bingo (followed closely by "just relax"). But I never got any snide remarks about adoption when people would ask me about babies when my husband and I first started trying (yes, it's weird that people ask about others' reproductive plans at all, but "Are you going to try for kids?" was a common question when we got married).

The above coworker and his wife went through 3 rounds of ivf. That's a lot of devastation as well as expense to achieve what many people get for free by having sex. Not to mention the physical process of ivf! Then add on the extra judgment about their choices that they wouldn't have otherwise received, and it just sucks all around.

I guess ultimately I wish people would either be less judgmental about people dealing with infertility, or at least equally judgmental to people who are fertile. Haha.


Back on topic, my office is pretty mustachian other than the odd celebratory restaurant lunch or envelopes that go around for $ contributions to buy gifts for people who are moving on to other companies. The least mustachian thing is probably the number of people in my office still working over 60! Lots of part-timers in their 70s. We recently had a coworker pass away who was 81. I think most of the old-timers still work because they want to, rather than because they need the money, though. The oldest ones are all lawyers and I think they never want to "slow down"!

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18742 on: September 25, 2017, 10:33:14 PM »
...

Then it turns out him and his wife can't get pregnant. She absolutely HAS to have a child that she birthed (adoption is out of the question despite their strong Christian, "love everybody" outlook on things), so 3 rounds of IVF at $15k a pop, all put on credit cards.

...

I normally just lurk but I wanted to comment on this. I know it's just a throwaway jab, but it's rubbing me the wrong way. I'm going to be doing IVF next month so I get my hackles up about this topic much more easily than the average person, but one of my big annoyances is how judgmental people get about the choice to try for a biological child only AFTER they realize that you're going to need medical assistance. "Why don't you just adopt?" is basically the center square in the game of infertility Bingo (followed closely by "just relax"). But I never got any snide remarks about adoption when people would ask me about babies when my husband and I first started trying (yes, it's weird that people ask about others' reproductive plans at all, but "Are you going to try for kids?" was a common question when we got married).

The above coworker and his wife went through 3 rounds of ivf. That's a lot of devastation as well as expense to achieve what many people get for free by having sex. Not to mention the physical process of ivf! Then add on the extra judgment about their choices that they wouldn't have otherwise received, and it just sucks all around.

I guess ultimately I wish people would either be less judgmental about people dealing with infertility, or at least equally judgmental to people who are fertile. Haha.


Back on topic, my office is pretty mustachian other than the odd celebratory restaurant lunch or envelopes that go around for $ contributions to buy gifts for people who are moving on to other companies. The least mustachian thing is probably the number of people in my office still working over 60! Lots of part-timers in their 70s. We recently had a coworker pass away who was 81. I think most of the old-timers still work because they want to, rather than because they need the money, though. The oldest ones are all lawyers and I think they never want to "slow down"!

I'd guess it's because "natural" childbirth is basically free, whereas IVF is perceived to be (wrongly?) expensive and therefore more comparable to adoption (which I also perceive to be fairly expensive).  FWIW, we considered adoption to be an alternative to IVF if we had trouble conceiving, but didn't seriously consider it as an alternative to "regular" babymaking.  (sorry I don't know what word to use that doesn't come off sounding like a jerk)

JordanOfGilead

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18743 on: September 26, 2017, 06:13:44 AM »
...

Then it turns out him and his wife can't get pregnant. She absolutely HAS to have a child that she birthed (adoption is out of the question despite their strong Christian, "love everybody" outlook on things), so 3 rounds of IVF at $15k a pop, all put on credit cards.

...


I normally just lurk but I wanted to comment on this. I know it's just a throwaway jab, but it's rubbing me the wrong way. I'm going to be doing IVF next month so I get my hackles up about this topic much more easily than the average person, but one of my big annoyances is how judgmental people get about the choice to try for a biological child only AFTER they realize that you're going to need medical assistance. "Why don't you just adopt?" is basically the center square in the game of infertility Bingo (followed closely by "just relax"). But I never got any snide remarks about adoption when people would ask me about babies when my husband and I first started trying (yes, it's weird that people ask about others' reproductive plans at all, but "Are you going to try for kids?" was a common question when we got married).

The above coworker and his wife went through 3 rounds of ivf. That's a lot of devastation as well as expense to achieve what many people get for free by having sex. Not to mention the physical process of ivf! Then add on the extra judgment about their choices that they wouldn't have otherwise received, and it just sucks all around.

I guess ultimately I wish people would either be less judgmental about people dealing with infertility, or at least equally judgmental to people who are fertile. Haha.


Back on topic, my office is pretty mustachian other than the odd celebratory restaurant lunch or envelopes that go around for $ contributions to buy gifts for people who are moving on to other companies. The least mustachian thing is probably the number of people in my office still working over 60! Lots of part-timers in their 70s. We recently had a coworker pass away who was 81. I think most of the old-timers still work because they want to, rather than because they need the money, though. The oldest ones are all lawyers and I think they never want to "slow down"!

I'd guess it's because "natural" childbirth is basically free, whereas IVF is perceived to be (wrongly?) expensive and therefore more comparable to adoption (which I also perceive to be fairly expensive).  FWIW, we considered adoption to be an alternative to IVF if we had trouble conceiving, but didn't seriously consider it as an alternative to "regular" babymaking.  (sorry I don't know what word to use that doesn't come off sounding like a jerk)

My fiancé and I have talked long and hard about our options for having children and came to the conclusion that, while we would like to have one of our own, we would much rather adopt and give a child a home that doesn't have one than spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring another person into a world where so many already exist that need help. It is from that perspective that I am judging the SHIT out of them for spending so much on IVF rather than to consider giving a child without a family a loving home, because my SO and I have had this conversation and I feel that her strong Christian upbringing has very much to do with her want to help children in need through foster care and adoption, whether or not she is able to have kids of her own. We have already decided to adopt regardless of our capability to conceive. It makes me wonder how much aforementioned CW actually gives a shit about the world outside of his immediate bubble to the extent that he would spend nearly $50,000 just to have a child that is genetically tied to him.

As a child that has an adoptive parent, I can attest to the fact that I have never received any less love from him than he gave to his biological daughter. It makes it difficult for me to understand why people are so resistant to the concept of adopting.

The section you chose to criticize is cherry picked from a long list of financially irresponsible decisions. If it were just the IVF thing, I wouldn't have even considered bringing it up. But it's not just the IVF thing. It's the $45k IVF thing, and the $47k mini van, and the $40k sedan, and the $250k house, and the constant wasteful spending on "tools" that he never uses, or uses once and stores away. It's the fact that he bitches and moans on a daily basis about being in debt but, despite the fact that he was a gnat's nut hair away from being out of it, does nothing to better his situation and continues to spend beyond his capability continually blaming his wife for his spending habits because he would rather stay neck deep in debt to appease her than talk to her about the money problem. The reason for my post is bigger than this one cherry picked item.

Bright Lights

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18744 on: September 26, 2017, 07:19:17 AM »
...

Then it turns out him and his wife can't get pregnant. She absolutely HAS to have a child that she birthed (adoption is out of the question despite their strong Christian, "love everybody" outlook on things), so 3 rounds of IVF at $15k a pop, all put on credit cards.

...


I normally just lurk but I wanted to comment on this. I know it's just a throwaway jab, but it's rubbing me the wrong way. I'm going to be doing IVF next month so I get my hackles up about this topic much more easily than the average person, but one of my big annoyances is how judgmental people get about the choice to try for a biological child only AFTER they realize that you're going to need medical assistance. "Why don't you just adopt?" is basically the center square in the game of infertility Bingo (followed closely by "just relax"). But I never got any snide remarks about adoption when people would ask me about babies when my husband and I first started trying (yes, it's weird that people ask about others' reproductive plans at all, but "Are you going to try for kids?" was a common question when we got married).

The above coworker and his wife went through 3 rounds of ivf. That's a lot of devastation as well as expense to achieve what many people get for free by having sex. Not to mention the physical process of ivf! Then add on the extra judgment about their choices that they wouldn't have otherwise received, and it just sucks all around.

I guess ultimately I wish people would either be less judgmental about people dealing with infertility, or at least equally judgmental to people who are fertile. Haha.


Back on topic, my office is pretty mustachian other than the odd celebratory restaurant lunch or envelopes that go around for $ contributions to buy gifts for people who are moving on to other companies. The least mustachian thing is probably the number of people in my office still working over 60! Lots of part-timers in their 70s. We recently had a coworker pass away who was 81. I think most of the old-timers still work because they want to, rather than because they need the money, though. The oldest ones are all lawyers and I think they never want to "slow down"!

I'd guess it's because "natural" childbirth is basically free, whereas IVF is perceived to be (wrongly?) expensive and therefore more comparable to adoption (which I also perceive to be fairly expensive).  FWIW, we considered adoption to be an alternative to IVF if we had trouble conceiving, but didn't seriously consider it as an alternative to "regular" babymaking.  (sorry I don't know what word to use that doesn't come off sounding like a jerk)

My fiancé and I have talked long and hard about our options for having children and came to the conclusion that, while we would like to have one of our own, we would much rather adopt and give a child a home that doesn't have one than spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring another person into a world where so many already exist that need help. It is from that perspective that I am judging the SHIT out of them for spending so much on IVF rather than to consider giving a child without a family a loving home, because my SO and I have had this conversation and I feel that her strong Christian upbringing has very much to do with her want to help children in need through foster care and adoption, whether or not she is able to have kids of her own. We have already decided to adopt regardless of our capability to conceive. It makes me wonder how much aforementioned CW actually gives a shit about the world outside of his immediate bubble to the extent that he would spend nearly $50,000 just to have a child that is genetically tied to him.

As a child that has an adoptive parent, I can attest to the fact that I have never received any less love from him than he gave to his biological daughter. It makes it difficult for me to understand why people are so resistant to the concept of adopting.

The section you chose to criticize is cherry picked from a long list of financially irresponsible decisions. If it were just the IVF thing, I wouldn't have even considered bringing it up. But it's not just the IVF thing. It's the $45k IVF thing, and the $47k mini van, and the $40k sedan, and the $250k house, and the constant wasteful spending on "tools" that he never uses, or uses once and stores away. It's the fact that he bitches and moans on a daily basis about being in debt but, despite the fact that he was a gnat's nut hair away from being out of it, does nothing to better his situation and continues to spend beyond his capability continually blaming his wife for his spending habits because he would rather stay neck deep in debt to appease her than talk to her about the money problem. The reason for my post is bigger than this one cherry picked item.

Thanks for your further comment. The reason I "cherry picked" that one section is because I think you're right to judge their other financial choices.

I'm glad to read that you're passionate about adoption for fertile people too. So often I hear people say that choosing ivf over adoption is morally reprehensible, when the people with that attitude have their own bio children and would not adopt themselves. People are so selfless when it comes to how other people should theoretically live their lives.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18745 on: September 26, 2017, 11:52:37 AM »
Quote
My fiancé and I have talked long and hard about our options for having children and came to the conclusion that, while we would like to have one of our own, we would much rather adopt and give a child a home that doesn't have one than spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring another person into a world where so many already exist that need help. It is from that perspective that I am judging the SHIT out of them for spending so much on IVF rather than to consider giving a child without a family a loving home, because my SO and I have had this conversation and I feel that her strong Christian upbringing has very much to do with her want to help children in need through foster care and adoption, whether or not she is able to have kids of her own. We have already decided to adopt regardless of our capability to conceive. It makes me wonder how much aforementioned CW actually gives a shit about the world outside of his immediate bubble to the extent that he would spend nearly $50,000 just to have a child that is genetically tied to him.
I'm not going to judge, because adoption comes with its own set of issues.

Nothing is guaranteed.  You can have a bio child with disabilities and issues, etc.

But I have friends who have adopted from foster care.  And, these kids often have issues.  From fetal alcohol syndrome to other drug addictions in utero to...?  It honestly takes a very special kind of person to be able to deal with that.  And I've also spent some time looking up adoption agencies and kids that are available.  The vast majority that I found were:
- multiple kids in one family
- had developmental delays
- had anger issues such that the recommendations were "Would do best in a family where he/she is the ONLY child or the youngest by at least 10 years"

Now, I agree that these children need and deserve loving homes and loving parents.  But honestly, the vast majority of people are not equipped to handle them.  They can be, with training.  However, our local agency that does foster-to-adopt REQUIRES two things:
1.  You have to agree to adopt if a child is placed with you and is there for more than X amount of time
2.  You have to have a stay at home parent.

The families that I know who have successfully done the foster-to-adopt were successful because they already had grown children.  They were older, had been through most of it before, and were able to handle early years disruptions that were due to the first few years of life and its craziness.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18746 on: September 26, 2017, 12:02:18 PM »

I guess ultimately I wish people would either be less judgmental about people dealing with infertility, or at least equally judgmental to people who are fertile. Haha.



Best of luck to you with your IVF. Struggling with infertility is one of the hardest things I've dealt with in my entire life.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18747 on: September 26, 2017, 12:24:21 PM »
Quote
My fiancé and I have talked long and hard about our options for having children and came to the conclusion that, while we would like to have one of our own, we would much rather adopt and give a child a home that doesn't have one than spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring another person into a world where so many already exist that need help. It is from that perspective that I am judging the SHIT out of them for spending so much on IVF rather than to consider giving a child without a family a loving home, because my SO and I have had this conversation and I feel that her strong Christian upbringing has very much to do with her want to help children in need through foster care and adoption, whether or not she is able to have kids of her own. We have already decided to adopt regardless of our capability to conceive. It makes me wonder how much aforementioned CW actually gives a shit about the world outside of his immediate bubble to the extent that he would spend nearly $50,000 just to have a child that is genetically tied to him.
I'm not going to judge, because adoption comes with its own set of issues.

Nothing is guaranteed.  You can have a bio child with disabilities and issues, etc.

But I have friends who have adopted from foster care.  And, these kids often have issues.  From fetal alcohol syndrome to other drug addictions in utero to...?  It honestly takes a very special kind of person to be able to deal with that.  And I've also spent some time looking up adoption agencies and kids that are available.  The vast majority that I found were:
- multiple kids in one family
- had developmental delays
- had anger issues such that the recommendations were "Would do best in a family where he/she is the ONLY child or the youngest by at least 10 years"

Now, I agree that these children need and deserve loving homes and loving parents.  But honestly, the vast majority of people are not equipped to handle them.  They can be, with training.  However, our local agency that does foster-to-adopt REQUIRES two things:
1.  You have to agree to adopt if a child is placed with you and is there for more than X amount of time
2.  You have to have a stay at home parent.

The families that I know who have successfully done the foster-to-adopt were successful because they already had grown children.  They were older, had been through most of it before, and were able to handle early years disruptions that were due to the first few years of life and its craziness.

QFT. In my state, adoption out of foster care is routinely pitched to single people and working couples. It shouldn't be, especially for older children.

By the time abused kids are taken in, they're generally several years behind developmentally and emotionally. The trauma they have been through generally causes them to act out in ways that sound like something out of young adult fiction or an after-school movie, and the only way to manage the consequences is to provide around-the-clock, on-demand supervision. If the child has been through several placements, there's a reason why, and yes, it generally does have to do with the child's behavior.

The only people who are capable of providing "in-home" care for severely troubled children are the ones who do it for a living. They are typically older couples who earn most of their income from foster care and who either are not employed outside the home or are able to set their own schedule such as by doing a sizable part of their work from home. They basically convert their home into a containment system for troubled children, most of whom end up piled in like cordwood to the point where they cannot receive the individual attention or tutoring they need (so they make zero progress in school). Transporting them to and from all their mandatory counseling, therapy, and medical appointments is a full-time job in itself.

Having a two-income family or being a single parent is possible IF you have normal kids. Children taken into the foster system have been damaged to the point where they are no longer normal, generally by their "loving" families of origin. The families of origin, by the way, are golden as far as the foster care system is concerned; the foster care system is basically set up to fellate them by giving them chance after chance to jerk their kids around, lie some more, and abuse them some more. You, the foster parent or pre-adoptive parent, are the punching bag not just for the kids but for the parents and the system too. Oh, and the notion that the child's parents and family is no longer in the picture is utterly false, unless you adopt from outside the country.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18748 on: September 26, 2017, 01:32:12 PM »
Quote
My fiancé and I have talked long and hard about our options for having children and came to the conclusion that, while we would like to have one of our own, we would much rather adopt and give a child a home that doesn't have one than spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring another person into a world where so many already exist that need help. It is from that perspective that I am judging the SHIT out of them for spending so much on IVF rather than to consider giving a child without a family a loving home, because my SO and I have had this conversation and I feel that her strong Christian upbringing has very much to do with her want to help children in need through foster care and adoption, whether or not she is able to have kids of her own. We have already decided to adopt regardless of our capability to conceive. It makes me wonder how much aforementioned CW actually gives a shit about the world outside of his immediate bubble to the extent that he would spend nearly $50,000 just to have a child that is genetically tied to him.
I'm not going to judge, because adoption comes with its own set of issues.

Nothing is guaranteed.  You can have a bio child with disabilities and issues, etc.

But I have friends who have adopted from foster care.  And, these kids often have issues.  From fetal alcohol syndrome to other drug addictions in utero to...?  It honestly takes a very special kind of person to be able to deal with that.  And I've also spent some time looking up adoption agencies and kids that are available.  The vast majority that I found were:
- multiple kids in one family
- had developmental delays
- had anger issues such that the recommendations were "Would do best in a family where he/she is the ONLY child or the youngest by at least 10 years"

Now, I agree that these children need and deserve loving homes and loving parents.  But honestly, the vast majority of people are not equipped to handle them.  They can be, with training.  However, our local agency that does foster-to-adopt REQUIRES two things:
1.  You have to agree to adopt if a child is placed with you and is there for more than X amount of time
2.  You have to have a stay at home parent.

The families that I know who have successfully done the foster-to-adopt were successful because they already had grown children.  They were older, had been through most of it before, and were able to handle early years disruptions that were due to the first few years of life and its craziness.

QFT. In my state, adoption out of foster care is routinely pitched to single people and working couples. It shouldn't be, especially for older children.

By the time abused kids are taken in, they're generally several years behind developmentally and emotionally. The trauma they have been through generally causes them to act out in ways that sound like something out of young adult fiction or an after-school movie, and the only way to manage the consequences is to provide around-the-clock, on-demand supervision. If the child has been through several placements, there's a reason why, and yes, it generally does have to do with the child's behavior.

The only people who are capable of providing "in-home" care for severely troubled children are the ones who do it for a living. They are typically older couples who earn most of their income from foster care and who either are not employed outside the home or are able to set their own schedule such as by doing a sizable part of their work from home. They basically convert their home into a containment system for troubled children, most of whom end up piled in like cordwood to the point where they cannot receive the individual attention or tutoring they need (so they make zero progress in school). Transporting them to and from all their mandatory counseling, therapy, and medical appointments is a full-time job in itself.

Having a two-income family or being a single parent is possible IF you have normal kids. Children taken into the foster system have been damaged to the point where they are no longer normal, generally by their "loving" families of origin. The families of origin, by the way, are golden as far as the foster care system is concerned; the foster care system is basically set up to fellate them by giving them chance after chance to jerk their kids around, lie some more, and abuse them some more. You, the foster parent or pre-adoptive parent, are the punching bag not just for the kids but for the parents and the system too. Oh, and the notion that the child's parents and family is no longer in the picture is utterly false, unless you adopt from outside the country.


As someone who is looking at foster / adoption of a child. Thank you! My fiance brings it up now and again. I honestly don't know how i feel about it.

Is your experience first or second hand or just what you have heard from being "in the know?"

Thank you !

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18749 on: September 26, 2017, 01:44:13 PM »
Quote
My fiancé and I have talked long and hard about our options for having children and came to the conclusion that, while we would like to have one of our own, we would much rather adopt and give a child a home that doesn't have one than spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring another person into a world where so many already exist that need help. It is from that perspective that I am judging the SHIT out of them for spending so much on IVF rather than to consider giving a child without a family a loving home, because my SO and I have had this conversation and I feel that her strong Christian upbringing has very much to do with her want to help children in need through foster care and adoption, whether or not she is able to have kids of her own. We have already decided to adopt regardless of our capability to conceive. It makes me wonder how much aforementioned CW actually gives a shit about the world outside of his immediate bubble to the extent that he would spend nearly $50,000 just to have a child that is genetically tied to him.
I'm not going to judge, because adoption comes with its own set of issues.

Nothing is guaranteed.  You can have a bio child with disabilities and issues, etc.

But I have friends who have adopted from foster care.  And, these kids often have issues.  From fetal alcohol syndrome to other drug addictions in utero to...?  It honestly takes a very special kind of person to be able to deal with that.  And I've also spent some time looking up adoption agencies and kids that are available.  The vast majority that I found were:
- multiple kids in one family
- had developmental delays
- had anger issues such that the recommendations were "Would do best in a family where he/she is the ONLY child or the youngest by at least 10 years"

Now, I agree that these children need and deserve loving homes and loving parents.  But honestly, the vast majority of people are not equipped to handle them.  They can be, with training.  However, our local agency that does foster-to-adopt REQUIRES two things:
1.  You have to agree to adopt if a child is placed with you and is there for more than X amount of time
2.  You have to have a stay at home parent.

The families that I know who have successfully done the foster-to-adopt were successful because they already had grown children.  They were older, had been through most of it before, and were able to handle early years disruptions that were due to the first few years of life and its craziness.

QFT. In my state, adoption out of foster care is routinely pitched to single people and working couples. It shouldn't be, especially for older children.

By the time abused kids are taken in, they're generally several years behind developmentally and emotionally. The trauma they have been through generally causes them to act out in ways that sound like something out of young adult fiction or an after-school movie, and the only way to manage the consequences is to provide around-the-clock, on-demand supervision. If the child has been through several placements, there's a reason why, and yes, it generally does have to do with the child's behavior.

The only people who are capable of providing "in-home" care for severely troubled children are the ones who do it for a living. They are typically older couples who earn most of their income from foster care and who either are not employed outside the home or are able to set their own schedule such as by doing a sizable part of their work from home. They basically convert their home into a containment system for troubled children, most of whom end up piled in like cordwood to the point where they cannot receive the individual attention or tutoring they need (so they make zero progress in school). Transporting them to and from all their mandatory counseling, therapy, and medical appointments is a full-time job in itself.

Having a two-income family or being a single parent is possible IF you have normal kids. Children taken into the foster system have been damaged to the point where they are no longer normal, generally by their "loving" families of origin. The families of origin, by the way, are golden as far as the foster care system is concerned; the foster care system is basically set up to fellate them by giving them chance after chance to jerk their kids around, lie some more, and abuse them some more. You, the foster parent or pre-adoptive parent, are the punching bag not just for the kids but for the parents and the system too. Oh, and the notion that the child's parents and family is no longer in the picture is utterly false, unless you adopt from outside the country.


As someone who is looking at foster / adoption of a child. Thank you! My fiance brings it up now and again. I honestly don't know how i feel about it.

Is your experience first or second hand or just what you have heard from being "in the know?"

Thank you !

Direct personal-- and miserable-- experience.

You can PM me for the more explicit details. I won't publish them, because the Internet is forever and I do not want my child to be punished for a lifetime for what may be a relatively temporary phase. But it's been bad. I have a spreadsheet and am counting down the days until she turns 18 and, by mutual agreement, moves out of my home and in with someone she doesn't despise. Our values are radically out of step and there's no emotional bond to speak of from her side. She will most likely never see me as anything except somebody to use, preferably in order to benefit the lowlifes she does value.

Had it not been for the Mustachian community, and particularly the financial principles that I'd been practicing a long time but that got reinforced on this board, I'd be bankrupt due to the shenanigans, manipulation, and constant demands not just by her but by other people in her lowlife entourage, including members of her bio-family.

Ironically, by the standards of the child services administration our adoption is considered a "success".

I've advised other members of this forum in the past. You can ask me anything.
I squeak softly, but carry a big schtick.