Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 8090981 times)

mtn

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18450 on: August 30, 2017, 01:08:29 PM »

2.  I tried to keep to to a an actual energy usage basis rather than making a judgement call about "better" or not.  That's a value judgement everyone has to make for their own situation.  But if your house is taking 3 days to recover and cool down you either have an over sized house or an undersized AC unit and you should probably worry about that rather than whether to run your undersized AC 24/7 or not.


This depends on what you mean by taking 3 days to recover. If you leave the AC off for 15 hours and then turn it on and it takes 3 days, yes there is a problem. But if your AC is off for 3 days and it takes 3 days to recover, that is normal in high heat situations.

frugalnacho

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18451 on: August 30, 2017, 01:09:17 PM »
if your house is taking 3 days to recover and cool down you either have an over sized house or an undersized AC unit and you should probably worry about that rather than whether to run your undersized AC 24/7 or not.

some would say your AC is perfectly sized if it runs 24/7 and maintains a comfortable temperature.  Is it better to have an oversized AC that can cool your house in 2 hours and then cycles on and off, or a much smaller, more efficient unit that runs 24/7?  I said better, but I'm open to answers for energy usage, total cost including equipment, and comfort.

lol no one would say that.  I don't think you want a unit to run 24/7.  You probably want some where in the middle.  Also what if it gets a few degrees hotter? How does your AC handle that if it's already running 24/7?

Given that this is MMM this debate shouldn't even exist.  You probably aren't a perishable vegetable that needs to be refrigerated, so the most MMM thing would be to adapt to the summer weather.

frugalnacho

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18452 on: August 30, 2017, 01:12:56 PM »

2.  I tried to keep to to a an actual energy usage basis rather than making a judgement call about "better" or not.  That's a value judgement everyone has to make for their own situation.  But if your house is taking 3 days to recover and cool down you either have an over sized house or an undersized AC unit and you should probably worry about that rather than whether to run your undersized AC 24/7 or not.


This depends on what you mean by taking 3 days to recover. If you leave the AC off for 15 hours and then turn it on and it takes 3 days, yes there is a problem. But if your AC is off for 3 days and it takes 3 days to recover, that is normal in high heat situations.

Where do you live, the sun?  I don't think it's normal for any place to take 3 days to recover and get down to room temperature if it has an appropriately sized AC. 

marielle

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18453 on: August 30, 2017, 01:15:25 PM »
if your house is taking 3 days to recover and cool down you either have an over sized house or an undersized AC unit and you should probably worry about that rather than whether to run your undersized AC 24/7 or not.

some would say your AC is perfectly sized if it runs 24/7 and maintains a comfortable temperature.  Is it better to have an oversized AC that can cool your house in 2 hours and then cycles on and off, or a much smaller, more efficient unit that runs 24/7?  I said better, but I'm open to answers for energy usage, total cost including equipment, and comfort.

No, this would be terrible for comfort. If you DO leave for a day, a week, or just want to turn it off when you're not home for 8 hours at work, you would be miserable when you do actually want it. If the unit is that undersized you would be waiting many hours to reach optimal temperature. A unit that runs 24/7 wouldn't be efficient, it would be undersized. You'd save a couple thousand on equipment costs but it wouldn't be worth the comfort/cost of running the unit when you're not home.

Maybe if you used window AC units in only the room you're currently occupying? That wouldn't be a bad strategy as far as money-saving, comfort, and equipment costs.

Dollar Slice

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18454 on: August 30, 2017, 01:36:30 PM »
Where do you live, the sun?  I don't think it's normal for any place to take 3 days to recover and get down to room temperature if it has an appropriately sized AC.

"Appropriately sized AC" along with insulation is the key. I used to live in a place with under-sized A/C and lousy insulation/leaky windows and doors, and it easily took over a day to cool down to a normal room temperature. And it was just an apartment which got very little direct sun, not a whole house or anything. My new place goes from Sahara > Antarctica in about an hour.
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mtn

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18455 on: August 30, 2017, 01:41:03 PM »

2.  I tried to keep to to a an actual energy usage basis rather than making a judgement call about "better" or not.  That's a value judgement everyone has to make for their own situation.  But if your house is taking 3 days to recover and cool down you either have an over sized house or an undersized AC unit and you should probably worry about that rather than whether to run your undersized AC 24/7 or not.


This depends on what you mean by taking 3 days to recover. If you leave the AC off for 15 hours and then turn it on and it takes 3 days, yes there is a problem. But if your AC is off for 3 days and it takes 3 days to recover, that is normal in high heat situations.

Where do you live, the sun?  I don't think it's normal for any place to take 3 days to recover and get down to room temperature if it has an appropriately sized AC.

No, just Chicago.

Earlier this summer, during the hottest week (of course it was the hottest week, when else does it happen?), we lost our AC. We put in a window unit in one room for the dogs, but we couldn't get the AC repaired for about 3-4 days. By that point, everything in the house was 90*, or close to it. Guess what? The repaired, efficient, correctly sized 5 year old AC in a house with good insulation took 3 days to get the house down from 90 to 72. It wasn't running the whole time--I'm guessing for efficiency reasons--but it took 3 days to cool the entire house down. Sure the area right by the thermostat was comfortable, but the upstairs was in the 80's for days 1 and 2. after the repair.

At one point I lived in a house with nearly no insulation and an undersized AC. That one required us to have a sprinkler on the house to help keep it cool. It never actually got cool, even though the AC was working correctly.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18456 on: August 30, 2017, 02:00:38 PM »
if your house is taking 3 days to recover and cool down you either have an over sized house or an undersized AC unit and you should probably worry about that rather than whether to run your undersized AC 24/7 or not.

some would say your AC is perfectly sized if it runs 24/7 and maintains a comfortable temperature.  Is it better to have an oversized AC that can cool your house in 2 hours and then cycles on and off, or a much smaller, more efficient unit that runs 24/7?  I said better, but I'm open to answers for energy usage, total cost including equipment, and comfort.

lol no one would say that.  I don't think you want a unit to run 24/7.  You probably want some where in the middle.  Also what if it gets a few degrees hotter? How does your AC handle that if it's already running 24/7?

Given that this is MMM this debate shouldn't even exist.  You probably aren't a perishable vegetable that needs to be refrigerated, so the most MMM thing would be to adapt to the summer weather.

This guy would:

Quote
When outdoor conditions are at the design temperature, an air conditioner should run pretty much continuously and be able to keep the house at the ACCA recommended indoor design temperature of 75 degrees Fahrenheit

What if it gets hotter?  The idea is to run continuously at "design temperature."  Everything below that is gravy.


No, this would be terrible for comfort. If you DO leave for a day, a week, or just want to turn it off when you're not home for 8 hours at work, you would be miserable when you do actually want it. If the unit is that undersized you would be waiting many hours to reach optimal temperature. A unit that runs 24/7 wouldn't be efficient, it would be undersized. You'd save a couple thousand on equipment costs but it wouldn't be worth the comfort/cost of running the unit when you're not home.

Maybe if you used window AC units in only the room you're currently occupying? That wouldn't be a bad strategy as far as money-saving, comfort, and equipment costs.

Comfort would be improved because you wouldn't have the heat swings you get from the bang/bang thermostats.

You'd have to leave it on all the time, so you'd lose setback gains.  Probably more ideal for people who are home all day, like elderly retirees.

There are, however, efficiency gains.  The blower would be smaller with lower pressure and CFM, which is more efficient for the same total volume of air moved.  The AC would be smaller, and I believe wear and inefficiency are both higher on startup/shutdown, which would be eliminated with a 24 hour run time. 

Even better would be a variable speed compressor/blower that can adjust down from max design temperature as things cool off.  That would make the equipment more expensive of course.

Like I said, I hardly ever use AC anyways, since our house is almost never gets uncomfortably hot even on 100+ days.  But it's an interesting theoretical problem, although perhaps impossible to solve without doing actual math or real world tests vs the butt-math we are using here.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18457 on: August 30, 2017, 02:19:34 PM »

2.  I tried to keep to to a an actual energy usage basis rather than making a judgement call about "better" or not.  That's a value judgement everyone has to make for their own situation.  But if your house is taking 3 days to recover and cool down you either have an over sized house or an undersized AC unit and you should probably worry about that rather than whether to run your undersized AC 24/7 or not.


This depends on what you mean by taking 3 days to recover. If you leave the AC off for 15 hours and then turn it on and it takes 3 days, yes there is a problem. But if your AC is off for 3 days and it takes 3 days to recover, that is normal in high heat situations.

Where do you live, the sun?  I don't think it's normal for any place to take 3 days to recover and get down to room temperature if it has an appropriately sized AC.

No, just Chicago.

Earlier this summer, during the hottest week (of course it was the hottest week, when else does it happen?), we lost our AC. We put in a window unit in one room for the dogs, but we couldn't get the AC repaired for about 3-4 days. By that point, everything in the house was 90*, or close to it. Guess what? The repaired, efficient, correctly sized 5 year old AC in a house with good insulation took 3 days to get the house down from 90 to 72. It wasn't running the whole time--I'm guessing for efficiency reasons--but it took 3 days to cool the entire house down. Sure the area right by the thermostat was comfortable, but the upstairs was in the 80's for days 1 and 2. after the repair.

At one point I lived in a house with nearly no insulation and an undersized AC. That one required us to have a sprinkler on the house to help keep it cool. It never actually got cool, even though the AC was working correctly.

If I understand how this system works, the issue is that the thermostat was signalling that the building was cool, so the AC stopped cooling. Then warmer air gradually drifted and heated the area near the thermostat, and got cooled, and so on. It was the air movement that took the time. If it happens again, see if running a $20 fan to move the air around the house helps.

mtn

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18458 on: August 30, 2017, 02:43:09 PM »

2.  I tried to keep to to a an actual energy usage basis rather than making a judgement call about "better" or not.  That's a value judgement everyone has to make for their own situation.  But if your house is taking 3 days to recover and cool down you either have an over sized house or an undersized AC unit and you should probably worry about that rather than whether to run your undersized AC 24/7 or not.


This depends on what you mean by taking 3 days to recover. If you leave the AC off for 15 hours and then turn it on and it takes 3 days, yes there is a problem. But if your AC is off for 3 days and it takes 3 days to recover, that is normal in high heat situations.

Where do you live, the sun?  I don't think it's normal for any place to take 3 days to recover and get down to room temperature if it has an appropriately sized AC.

No, just Chicago.

Earlier this summer, during the hottest week (of course it was the hottest week, when else does it happen?), we lost our AC. We put in a window unit in one room for the dogs, but we couldn't get the AC repaired for about 3-4 days. By that point, everything in the house was 90*, or close to it. Guess what? The repaired, efficient, correctly sized 5 year old AC in a house with good insulation took 3 days to get the house down from 90 to 72. It wasn't running the whole time--I'm guessing for efficiency reasons--but it took 3 days to cool the entire house down. Sure the area right by the thermostat was comfortable, but the upstairs was in the 80's for days 1 and 2. after the repair.

At one point I lived in a house with nearly no insulation and an undersized AC. That one required us to have a sprinkler on the house to help keep it cool. It never actually got cool, even though the AC was working correctly.

If I understand how this system works, the issue is that the thermostat was signalling that the building was cool, so the AC stopped cooling. Then warmer air gradually drifted and heated the area near the thermostat, and got cooled, and so on. It was the air movement that took the time. If it happens again, see if running a $20 fan to move the air around the house helps.

No, it is central AC with air going to all rooms evenly. What happens is that the air is cooled down, but it takes a long time to cool down the walls, couches, counters, beds, etc. So the air is cooled, but then warmed by the rest of the house.

It is much, much easier to keep something cold or keep something warm than it is to make it cold or make it warm.

Imma

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18459 on: August 30, 2017, 03:28:59 PM »
if your house is taking 3 days to recover and cool down you either have an over sized house or an undersized AC unit and you should probably worry about that rather than whether to run your undersized AC 24/7 or not.

some would say your AC is perfectly sized if it runs 24/7 and maintains a comfortable temperature.  Is it better to have an oversized AC that can cool your house in 2 hours and then cycles on and off, or a much smaller, more efficient unit that runs 24/7?  I said better, but I'm open to answers for energy usage, total cost including equipment, and comfort.

lol no one would say that.  I don't think you want a unit to run 24/7.  You probably want some where in the middle.  Also what if it gets a few degrees hotter? How does your AC handle that if it's already running 24/7?

Given that this is MMM this debate shouldn't even exist.  You probably aren't a perishable vegetable that needs to be refrigerated, so the most MMM thing would be to adapt to the summer weather.

This is what I do, but I'm in a moderate climate. It's different when you're in the desert or something.

Where I live, it doesn't get any hotter than 90-95 degrees F in the hottest weeks of the year. When I close the curtains on the sunny side of the house, it means it gets up to about 80 F inside the house and for a few weeks a year, you can easily survive that.

During winter, we do it the other way round and let it cool to about 65 F before we put on the heating. In a moderate climate where winter temperatures vary between 20 and 50 F, that means we barely have any heating costs and no cooling costs at all. We have a portable fan from when we lived in a top floor apartment that we've been hanging on to 'just in case' but we could just as well declutter that. 

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18460 on: August 30, 2017, 03:52:42 PM »
It is much, much easier to keep something cold or keep something warm than it is to make it cold or make it warm.

The problem with that argument is that if your walls and furniture have so much thermal mass that they take forever to cool back down, then they're also going to take forever to warm up after you turn the air off.  It's not like you turn the air off at 8 when you leave for work and at 9am everything in your house has normalized to 95F.  First the air has to warm up, which takes time, then everything else follows behind it.  If all your stuff has enough thermal mass to have to keep it in consideration, then it's still going to be cool when you get home from work, helping to keep the house cool throughout the day.

mm1970

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18461 on: August 30, 2017, 05:01:54 PM »
It is much, much easier to keep something cold or keep something warm than it is to make it cold or make it warm.

The problem with that argument is that if your walls and furniture have so much thermal mass that they take forever to cool back down, then they're also going to take forever to warm up after you turn the air off.  It's not like you turn the air off at 8 when you leave for work and at 9am everything in your house has normalized to 95F.  First the air has to warm up, which takes time, then everything else follows behind it.  If all your stuff has enough thermal mass to have to keep it in consideration, then it's still going to be cool when you get home from work, helping to keep the house cool throughout the day.
Seriously guys, don't make me dig out my engineering manuals and math.  Actually, the main manual is propping up my 2nd monitor.

So, I should be working, but I googled.  A few places on the interwebs note that heating and cooling do not happen at the same rate.  (Heating comes from adding energy, cooling from removing energy.  It's harder to remove energy than add it because of entropy.)

nnls

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18462 on: August 30, 2017, 05:05:37 PM »
One of my colleagues strongly believes that it is less expensive to run his A/C the whole day while he's at work, than to turn it off when he leaves, then back on again.

Because, he says, it uses more energy to start the cooling process over again and cool the room, than to maintain a given (cold) room temperature. I'm pretty sure that's ignoring very basic principles of thermodynamics. Appreciate if any of you have a concise, yet authoritative site on the topic.

By that logic, you should just leave the oven on all day so it doesn't have to heat up from room temperature when it's time to make dinner.

Not quite the same logic, actually.

When our AC was out for a couple of days, it took about 3 days to get the house back cool. Why? Because everything in the house was hot. The couches, walls, floors, beds, tables, everything was over 90*. So the air was cooled, but the things were not.

It doesn't take very long to heat 5 cubic feet of air. It takes a LONG time to cool/heat a lot of things, and air.

I'm not saying he's right--but he has a valid, though mis-led point.

three days seems extreme.

Where I work we regularly have days over 48C during the day (google tells me this is 118F) and it wont drop below 30C over night  (86F) I am probably the only person who I work with who doesnt leave my aircon all day while I am at work. It doesnt take that long for me to get it back to a regular temperature, I put it on 24C when I get back and its fine. Admittedly my accommodation at work is small but it doesnt take long for the place, including bed, couch, other furniture to cool down.

TexasStash

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18463 on: August 30, 2017, 05:28:33 PM »
I'm old enough to remember when this was the Overheard at Work thread.


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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18464 on: August 30, 2017, 05:56:40 PM »
Yesterday a kind coworker told me "if you pay yourself first and save one hour of each day's paycheck, by the time you're my age [54], you could have $500k!"

I smiled because she had really good advice and knew what she was talking about. Of course I didn't tell her by the time I'm her age I'll have three times that amount (hopefully) and be long retired!

TexasStash

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18465 on: August 30, 2017, 07:16:44 PM »
Yesterday a kind coworker told me "if you pay yourself first and save one hour of each day's paycheck, by the time you're my age [54], you could have $500k!"

I smiled because she had really good advice and knew what she was talking about. Of course I didn't tell her by the time I'm her age I'll have three times that amount (hopefully) and be long retired!

Well done! I hope to have a similar amount as you and also be retired by that age, though maybe not long retired


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TexasStash

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18466 on: August 30, 2017, 07:17:17 PM »
Yesterday a kind coworker told me "if you pay yourself first and save one hour of each day's paycheck, by the time you're my age [54], you could have $500k!"

I smiled because she had really good advice and knew what she was talking about. Of course I didn't tell her by the time I'm her age I'll have three times that amount (hopefully) and be long retired!

Well done! I hope to have a similar amount as you and also be retired by that age, though maybe not long retired


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TexasStash

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18467 on: August 30, 2017, 07:18:41 PM »
Yesterday a kind coworker told me "if you pay yourself first and save one hour of each day's paycheck, by the time you're my age [54], you could have $500k!"

I smiled because she had really good advice and knew what she was talking about. Of course I didn't tell her by the time I'm her age I'll have three times that amount (hopefully) and be long retired!

Well done! I hope to have a similar amount as you and also be retired by that age, though maybe not long retired


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TexasStash

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18468 on: August 30, 2017, 07:17:50 PM »
Yesterday a kind coworker told me "if you pay yourself first and save one hour of each day's paycheck, by the time you're my age [54], you could have $500k!"

I smiled because she had really good advice and knew what she was talking about. Of course I didn't tell her by the time I'm her age I'll have three times that amount (hopefully) and be long retired!

Well done! I hope to have a similar amount as you and also be retired by that age, though maybe not long retired


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Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18469 on: August 31, 2017, 12:16:57 AM »
Yesterday a kind coworker told me "if you pay yourself first and save one hour of each day's paycheck, by the time you're my age [54], you could have $500k!"

I smiled because she had really good advice and knew what she was talking about. Of course I didn't tell her by the time I'm her age I'll have three times that amount (hopefully) and be long retired!

That's a neat way of explaining it. Not necessarily the final value but the concept (while still MMM-light), is achievable for many.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18470 on: August 31, 2017, 02:58:48 AM »
Yesterday a kind coworker told me "if you pay yourself first and save one hour of each day's paycheck, by the time you're my age [54], you could have $500k!"

I smiled because she had really good advice and knew what she was talking about. Of course I didn't tell her by the time I'm her age I'll have three times that amount (hopefully) and be long retired!

I think that's quite lovely advice, and could be a very apt image for making the concept of regular saving real to people whose minds work that way. I wouldn't hesitate to offer advice like that to my young co-workers, taking the risk that some of them may already be socking away 70% of their income.



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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18471 on: August 31, 2017, 03:09:09 AM »
No, it is central AC with air going to all rooms evenly. What happens is that the air is cooled down, but it takes a long time to cool down the walls, couches, counters, beds, etc. So the air is cooled, but then warmed by the rest of the house.

It is much, much easier to keep something cold or keep something warm than it is to make it cold or make it warm.

Yes, look at The Mustache himselfs posts when he writes about the thermal mass of his new home. Or have a look at earthships which use a passive heat storing system to cool in the summer and heat warm in the winter.

Not overheard the earthships at my work, but I COULD HAVE.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18472 on: August 31, 2017, 04:04:26 AM »
It is much, much easier to keep something cold or keep something warm than it is to make it cold or make it warm.

Yes, look at The Mustache himselfs posts when he writes about the thermal mass of his new home.
1) Thermal mass helps to smooth the temperature curve without using artificial heating/cooling, but when you use devices, then turning them off will always save energy, because during the time when the temperature difference is reduced you will have less heat flow between inside and outside. Whether that's cost-effective, comfortable, or "easier" depends on a whole lot of other factors though.

2) Going back to the preferred temperature should always take less time than the device was turned off. Otherwise, how were you able to maintain the temperature in the first place? The only exception is when the heating/cooling device cannot run non-stop.

3) The only interesting question arises in the scenario described by RidetheRain
I live in the desert and if I turn off the a/c while I'm at work then my fridge has to work overtime because of the heat. I end up with a ridiculously high bill because of the fridge and any food in the door goes bad (I hide dairy in the back corner to this day). For me, just cooling the place is cheaper although I do have different temps for when I'm home vs not home.
Does this mean the fridge sucks or is it normal that AC units are more energy efficient than fridges?

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18473 on: August 31, 2017, 05:09:24 AM »
I once had an AC that pushed out foam instead of cold air.

Only solution was to turn it off and move it to the room for the foam party. This way people could enjoy the foam and my work room was almost foam free.


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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18474 on: August 31, 2017, 05:39:02 AM »
Long time lurker of this post, but I don't think I've posted before

Not really overheard, but work related. My employer produces a quarterly "flyer" that has your benefits and investment info, basically telling you how much money the company has spent on your benefits, how much you have spent on benefits, etc, but there is also a part that is called "your FIt age. Financially Independent time? I think- it's the soonest they think you will have saved enough to retire at your current rate. I noticed it said "55", and I thought, no way, I should be FI before that, then I noticed the small writing below it says something like, "55 is the earliest our software will compute a retirement age" So I guess the company doesn't think its possible to Retire very early.

And then, not at work, but my Brother (#3) and SIL are pretty deep into debt with student loans, she recently had her laptop computer "die", and they bought a new one-with $ from their student loans that they'll be paying on for the rest of her life. She gave the laptop to one of my brothers(#2), who isn't in a tech field, but is pretty computer savy. (I'm not super tech savy) He told me he had to do a couple of things, and then reinstall the software, but was able to bring the laptop back to life. He offered it back to my SIL, but she said, "Oh, I don't need it, we already bought a new one." Now granted she's in school and may have needed a computer, but I know brother #3 has a laptop, and they have a desktop, so it's not like she didn't have other options while it was being worked on. Oh well, my brother #2 was thrilled to have acquired a "free" laptop.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18475 on: August 31, 2017, 05:47:39 AM »
One of my colleagues strongly believes that it is less expensive to run his A/C the whole day while he's at work, than to turn it off when he leaves, then back on again.

Because, he says, it uses more energy to start the cooling process over again and cool the room, than to maintain a given (cold) room temperature. I'm pretty sure that's ignoring very basic principles of thermodynamics. Appreciate if any of you have a concise, yet authoritative site on the topic.

I remember that the Florida Solar Energy Center website had something on this (BTW you are correct). Maybe take the easy road in explanation though and tell him with his theory he should leave his car running all day (while at work of course) with the AC on.
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marty998

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18476 on: August 31, 2017, 06:12:11 AM »
I once had an AC that pushed out foam instead of cold air.

Only solution was to turn it off and move it to the room for the foam party. This way people could enjoy the foam and my work room was almost foam free.

I see what you did there ;)

I also think everyone needs to practice badassity and not use aircon at all.

wauske

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18477 on: August 31, 2017, 10:22:44 AM »
One of my colleagues strongly believes that it is less expensive to run his A/C the whole day while he's at work, than to turn it off when he leaves, then back on again.

Because, he says, it uses more energy to start the cooling process over again and cool the room, than to maintain a given (cold) room temperature. I'm pretty sure that's ignoring very basic principles of thermodynamics. Appreciate if any of you have a concise, yet authoritative site on the topic.

By that logic, you should just leave the oven on all day so it doesn't have to heat up from room temperature when it's time to make dinner.

Not quite the same logic, actually.

When our AC was out for a couple of days, it took about 3 days to get the house back cool. Why? Because everything in the house was hot. The couches, walls, floors, beds, tables, everything was over 90*. So the air was cooled, but the things were not.

It doesn't take very long to heat 5 cubic feet of air. It takes a LONG time to cool/heat a lot of things, and air.

I'm not saying he's right--but he has a valid, though mis-led point.
The same applies when you're hearing too, when you come back from a holiday mid winter and your house is cold the air is easy to heat but the other stuff needs to heat up as well. Depending on you house's insulation it can actually be better to keep a certain temperature constantly rather than lower the temp dramatically and reheating it a few hours later...
Everything I say is my personal opinion which is based on my subjective experience.

Raenia

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18478 on: August 31, 2017, 10:31:38 AM »
Just had a really sad "overheard at work" to share.  My employer runs a shuttle from the site to the train station for employees who take public transit.  From what I can tell, the company hires a contractor company, who in turn hires the driver (and probably provides the van?)  Two of my coworkers to take the train were talking about it, and apparently the guy who drives the van told them that he has to drive 180 miles each way to get from his home to the site, over 2 hours of unpaid driving before he even gets to work.  Apparently he's been sleeping in the van in the parking lot some night because he was too exhausted to drive home.  He's getting older and having some health concerns which might make it dangerous for him to drive, but no one is taking action.  And to top it off, he was recently asking for advice on his legal rights when his paycheck from the contract company bounced when he tried to cash it- which has apparently happened multiple times!

This poor guy cannot possibly be paid enough to make this gig worthwhile.

Debts_of_Despair

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18479 on: August 31, 2017, 10:51:35 AM »
Pretty common in the transportation industry.  If you aren't driving "loaded" miles you might not be getting paid.

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18480 on: August 31, 2017, 11:05:33 AM »
Depending on you house's insulation it can actually be better to keep a certain temperature constantly rather than lower the temp dramatically and reheating it a few hours later...

Still faulty logic.  If your insulation is so bad that the temp of the house changes dramatically while you're at work, that means it's also bad enough that your a/c or heater is going to be working hard all day to keep a constant temp while no one is there.

Goldielocks

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18481 on: August 31, 2017, 11:11:45 AM »
AC usage..

Off thread, but we are swimming in general foam here anyway...

Compared to California (where I used to live), BC has a weird peak demand for electricity...
Its actually in the winter -- between 5 to 8pm, when people come home, turn on heat, make dinner, run laundry, etc.  Please note that the vast majority of homes have natural gas, so this heating spike is about apartments and the furnace fan...  Also, that the vast majority of homes do not have A/C.

http://www.news1130.com/2017/01/04/bc-hydro-breaks-time-high-electricity-demand/

Until, of course, last Monday night, when the temperature at night in my house (without A/C) remained at 29'C for a LOONG time!
Even through earlier in the summer it was hotter I guess people just got tired of the sudden spike in temperatures and turned on their A/C if they had any.. but this was still 25% lower than in the winter.

https://www.bchydro.com/news/press_centre/news_releases/2017/soaring-temperatures-lead-to-increasing-demand-for-power.html

DarkandStormy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18482 on: August 31, 2017, 11:17:04 AM »
Boss at lunch discussing the upcoming football season / tv use / Xbox (or PS4?) use:

Boss: I usually only play the games I buy about 5-6 times and never touch them again - hockey, Madden, etc.
Co-worker: Oh a new Battlefield is coming out pretty soon, too.
Boss: Crap, how am I going to play that while watching football all day Saturday and Sunday.
*pauses*
Boss: I think I'm going to have to get a 2nd TV for the basement.
Co-worker: Couldn't you just not watch football for part of the day? Or stream on your phone?
Boss: Nah, gotta have the football on the big screen.
*pauses again*
Boss: Actually, another problem is my daughter just spends all her time playing Minecraft.  And if she's not playing, she watches videos of other people playing.
Boss: Maybe I'll just have to get a 2nd playstation, too....
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Raenia

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18483 on: August 31, 2017, 11:35:05 AM »
Pretty common in the transportation industry.  If you aren't driving "loaded" miles you might not be getting paid.

It's more the distance than the fact that it wasn't paid that made my jaw drop.  The guy lives almost 200 miles from his work, that's insane.  Plus the fact that his paychecks bounced - that is really, really not a good look for any company.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18484 on: August 31, 2017, 02:41:14 PM »
Boss at lunch discussing the upcoming football season / tv use / Xbox (or PS4?) use:

Boss: I usually only play the games I buy about 5-6 times and never touch them again - hockey, Madden, etc.
Co-worker: Oh a new Battlefield is coming out pretty soon, too.
Boss: Crap, how am I going to play that while watching football all day Saturday and Sunday.
*pauses*
Boss: I think I'm going to have to get a 2nd TV for the basement.
Co-worker: Couldn't you just not watch football for part of the day? Or stream on your phone?
Boss: Nah, gotta have the football on the big screen.
*pauses again*
Boss: Actually, another problem is my daughter just spends all her time playing Minecraft.  And if she's not playing, she watches videos of other people playing.
Boss: Maybe I'll just have to get a 2nd playstation, too....

Tell this guy to set up a Twitch stream so I can watch him watching football on one screen, while playing battlefield on another screen, and his daughter watching videos of other people playing Minecraft.  Of course, I'll also want to watch football so I'll probably need to buy another TV so I can also watch this guy.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18485 on: August 31, 2017, 02:46:14 PM »
Not overheard at work per say.  I just had my less than 1/2 a semi household goods delivered for a work paid for transfer.  The driver commented about recently assisting in the pick up and drop off of someone from a midwestern office of our organization.  He had 2 full semi's of household goods.  I can't even imagine.   

dandarc

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18486 on: August 31, 2017, 02:55:56 PM »
Not overheard at work per say.  I just had my less than 1/2 a semi household goods delivered for a work paid for transfer.  The driver commented about recently assisting in the pick up and drop off of someone from a midwestern office of our organization.  He had 2 full semi's of household goods.  I can't even imagine.   
Wow that's a lot of stuff.

Goldielocks

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18487 on: September 01, 2017, 12:13:36 AM »
Not overheard at work per say.  I just had my less than 1/2 a semi household goods delivered for a work paid for transfer.  The driver commented about recently assisting in the pick up and drop off of someone from a midwestern office of our organization.  He had 2 full semi's of household goods.  I can't even imagine.   
Wow that's a lot of stuff.

I hope he had a couple of cars in there...!

wauske

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18488 on: September 01, 2017, 12:29:52 AM »
Depending on you house's insulation it can actually be better to keep a certain temperature constantly rather than lower the temp dramatically and reheating it a few hours later...

Still faulty logic.  If your insulation is so bad that the temp of the house changes dramatically while you're at work, that means it's also bad enough that your a/c or heater is going to be working hard all day to keep a constant temp while no one is there.
I don't have an AC. But the point is the maintaining a temperature either heating or cooling requires the same type of effort.

Since my house is insulated very well my problem is more that the house retains its temp very well in summer but after a heatwave we also have an inside temp of 27c for a couple of days :D
Everything I say is my personal opinion which is based on my subjective experience.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18489 on: September 01, 2017, 12:55:51 AM »
Depending on you house's insulation it can actually be better to keep a certain temperature constantly rather than lower the temp dramatically and reheating it a few hours later...

Still faulty logic.  If your insulation is so bad that the temp of the house changes dramatically while you're at work, that means it's also bad enough that your a/c or heater is going to be working hard all day to keep a constant temp while no one is there.
I don't have an AC. But the point is the maintaining a temperature either heating or cooling requires the same type of effort.

Since my house is insulated very well my problem is more that the house retains its temp very well in summer but after a heatwave we also have an inside temp of 27c for a couple of days :D

No windows eh?

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18490 on: September 01, 2017, 09:39:45 AM »
I was stopped by a chugger on the way home from work today and I think he had a bit of a hard time. I usually stop and chat if I have a few minutes to spare, though I always warn them as I stop that I'm not going to give them any money. Never stops them trying...

Him: [Tells me about his charity, then...] So, you live here, right? You rent? Have a mortgage?
Me: Neither, my husband gets a free house through his job.
Him: OK, cool. But you still have to get around. You have a travelcard?
Me: No, I work from home a lot and I'm trying to get back into cycling.
Him: Er, right, OK. But you must have some regular outgoings. Do you have a phone contract?
Me: Yes.
Him (relieved): Right, so we're just looking for 2 a week. Now, what would you do if your phone bill went up by 2/week?
Me: Well, it would almost double.
Him: Your phone contract is 8 a month?!
Me: Well, 11.50, but an extra 8 on that would be a lot, so I'd probably shop around for a new one.
Him (rattled): Er, yeah, I can see that. (Flails briefly.) What about food? What if your food bill went up 2/week?
Me (feeling sorry for him): Yeah, I wouldn't stop eating if it went up 2/week.

He continued his spiel. I declined to give his charity any money, explaining that I already gave to another charity.

Him: But we're not asking for a lot. I'm not going to ask how much you give them, but--
Me: 100 a month.
[Something computes in his brain that I live in a free house, have minimal commuting costs, have what is obviously the cheapest phone contract he has ever come across...and happily give away 100/month. There is obviously something peculiar about me.]
Him: Right, yeah, that is quite a lot already... OK, well, nice to chat to you, keep us in mind!

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18491 on: September 01, 2017, 11:05:17 AM »
I was stopped by a chugger on the way home from work today and I think he had a bit of a hard time....

Hahaha, nice story!

So I figure a chugger is someone who wants to sell you something on the street?
Does this word apply to everyone or just e.g. monthly costing things or only charities (or what they say are charities ;) )

Too bad I wasn't there, I could have told him that my mobile cost was under 11 pounds for the whole last year.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 11:09:09 AM by LennStar »

TartanTallulah

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18492 on: September 01, 2017, 11:42:43 AM »
I was stopped by a chugger on the way home from work today and I think he had a bit of a hard time....

Hahaha, nice story!

So I figure a chugger is someone who wants to sell you something on the street?
Does this word apply to everyone or just e.g. monthly costing things or only charities (or what they say are charities ;) )


Chugger = "charity mugger". Someone who accosts you in the street or on your own doorstep trying to get you to sign up to make a regular donation to their charity. They're not volunteers, they're paid by the charity.

I was most disappointed to be doorstepped by a chugger from a charity I support regularly, have raised funds for, and have some contact with in the course of my job.



shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18493 on: September 01, 2017, 12:08:32 PM »
I was stopped by a chugger on the way home from work today and I think he had a bit of a hard time....

Hahaha, nice story!

So I figure a chugger is someone who wants to sell you something on the street?
Does this word apply to everyone or just e.g. monthly costing things or only charities (or what they say are charities ;) )


Chugger = "charity mugger". Someone who accosts you in the street or on your own doorstep trying to get you to sign up to make a regular donation to their charity. They're not volunteers, they're paid by the charity.

I was most disappointed to be doorstepped by a chugger from a charity I support regularly, have raised funds for, and have some contact with in the course of my job.

Yup, charity muggers. My killer question, which I forgot to ask this one, is usually, "And how much do you give to [charity] a month?" I've only ever had one really excellent answer, which was along the lines of someone asking people to give 20 a month who himself gave about 30. Normally they look a bit shifty and embarrassed... I also usually have heard of the charity in question and know what they do, so that's their opening spiel shot down, and tend to ask follow-up questions about the details. Sometimes that goes well and we have a nice chat about what the charity does. Other times it's clear they haven't got a clue.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18494 on: September 01, 2017, 03:59:40 PM »
I was stopped by a chugger on the way home from work today and I think he had a bit of a hard time....

Hahaha, nice story!

So I figure a chugger is someone who wants to sell you something on the street?
Does this word apply to everyone or just e.g. monthly costing things or only charities (or what they say are charities ;) )


Chugger = "charity mugger". Someone who accosts you in the street or on your own doorstep trying to get you to sign up to make a regular donation to their charity. They're not volunteers, they're paid by the charity.

I was most disappointed to be doorstepped by a chugger from a charity I support regularly, have raised funds for, and have some contact with in the course of my job.

Yup, charity muggers. My killer question, which I forgot to ask this one, is usually, "And how much do you give to [charity] a month?" I've only ever had one really excellent answer, which was along the lines of someone asking people to give 20 a month who himself gave about 30. Normally they look a bit shifty and embarrassed... I also usually have heard of the charity in question and know what they do, so that's their opening spiel shot down, and tend to ask follow-up questions about the details. Sometimes that goes well and we have a nice chat about what the charity does. Other times it's clear they haven't got a clue.

If they are paid, that's a good question.  If they volunteer, I'd expect to hear something like "$100 worth of my time"

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18495 on: September 02, 2017, 12:05:13 AM »
If they are paid, that's a good question.  If they volunteer, I'd expect to hear something like "$100 worth of my time"

The typical chugger is paid, and will fundraise for one charity one week and another the next, they just change the T-shirt. I've found that the slicker the person the more likely they are to be paid. Also, the one SLTD interacted with seemed to say very little about the charity, just about how she had spare money to give to this one.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18496 on: September 02, 2017, 01:16:46 AM »
If they are paid, that's a good question.  If they volunteer, I'd expect to hear something like "$100 worth of my time"

The typical chugger is paid, and will fundraise for one charity one week and another the next, they just change the T-shirt. I've found that the slicker the person the more likely they are to be paid. Also, the one SLTD interacted with seemed to say very little about the charity, just about how she had spare money to give to this one.

AFAIK all direct debit sign up chuggers are paid. The tin rattlers are usually volunteers, but they only want a bit of spare change and tend to just smile at you rather than accost you.

 To be fair to this guy, he kicked off with:
Him: Have you hear of [charity]?
Me: Yes, you do X, Y and Z.
Him: Great! Well did you know that recently we did [thing in the news]--
Me: Yes. [Finishes his story.]

So he did know about his charity but, er, so did I!

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18497 on: September 02, 2017, 01:39:05 AM »
If they are paid, that's a good question.  If they volunteer, I'd expect to hear something like "$100 worth of my time"

The typical chugger is paid, and will fundraise for one charity one week and another the next, they just change the T-shirt. I've found that the slicker the person the more likely they are to be paid. Also, the one SLTD interacted with seemed to say very little about the charity, just about how she had spare money to give to this one.

AFAIK all direct debit sign up chuggers are paid. The tin rattlers are usually volunteers, but they only want a bit of spare change and tend to just smile at you rather than accost you.

 To be fair to this guy, he kicked off with:
Him: Have you hear of [charity]?
Me: Yes, you do X, Y and Z.
Him: Great! Well did you know that recently we did [thing in the news]--
Me: Yes. [Finishes his story.]

So he did know about his charity but, er, so did I!

Yes, chugging is a thankless task, there is no way I'd do it as a volunteer (or for money but I'm loaded so can afford to be picky). Many people are dismissive or rude to chuggers*. It's a pretty grimy industry, as the chugger-company get a big chunk of the direct debit, so the charity doesn't get nearly as much as if you signed up directly (which they don't mention). There was a story a while ago about them deliberately targeting low income households and areas. Then they sell people's contact details on, and if you sign up for a 2 payment you get phone calls until the end of time about increasing it.

* I say many people, I mean me. I'm rude to chuggers. There are laws against begging in the UK, they often break them. I avoid eye contact, so they only interact with me by physically blocking my way or by touching me. By that point, they no longer deserve my civility (there is clearly some selection bias here, so I'm only rude to the pushy chuggers).

SLTD seems a much nicer person than me. Good for you.

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18498 on: September 02, 2017, 04:57:26 AM »
Chugger = "charity mugger". Someone who accosts you in the street or on your own doorstep trying to get you to sign up to make a regular donation to their charity. They're not volunteers, they're paid by the charity.
Getting one at the door would be a good way to STOP me from making donations.
Luckily I live in a "relatively poor" area rented flat (mostly old people here), so the doors are fairly save, and in Germany it's less anyway. Except a very few (real or not real, most likely latter) refugees there were only two sellers of something in the last 10 years.

farfromfire

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18499 on: September 02, 2017, 07:10:24 AM »
One of my colleagues strongly believes that it is less expensive to run his A/C the whole day while he's at work, than to turn it off when he leaves, then back on again.

Because, he says, it uses more energy to start the cooling process over again and cool the room, than to maintain a given (cold) room temperature. I'm pretty sure that's ignoring very basic principles of thermodynamics. Appreciate if any of you have a concise, yet authoritative site on the topic.

"The EPA says it's better to shut off the air conditioner if you will be away for more than a few hours."
https://www.acdoctor.com/blog/turn-off-ac-or-leave-it-on/

* Assuming you live in a non-ridiculously hot area. I live in the desert and if I turn off the a/c while I'm at work then my fridge has to work overtime because of the heat. I end up with a ridiculously high bill because of the fridge and any food in the door goes bad (I hide dairy in the back corner to this day). For me, just cooling the place is cheaper although I do have different temps for when I'm home vs not home.

No fucking way this is true.  It doesn't even make sense.  You just had a malfunctioning fridge that couldn't keep cold enough, or the efficiency difference between your fridge and AC unit was so disparate that no one should have been using that fridge (ie it was clearly malfunctioning). 

I also call bullshit on anyone saying it takes 3 days to recool their house or anything else.  It takes less energy to turn the AC or heater off/down while you are away and only run it while you are home, absolutely no exceptions.   You can make the argument that you are more comfortable for some short period by keeping a constant temperature rather than turning the unit off then back on and waiting for it to reach your ideal temperature, but leaving it on uses more total energy absolutely no exceptions ever.  That's just the laws of thermodynamics.
Yea. In my hometown 110+ is not uncommon, even for a few days in a row, and AC never fails to cool the entire house within a few hours. Definitely no issues with food perishing.
Now, these are concrete block houses which might perform better in high temperatures. But if that makes such a difference vs wood, might as well use them instead of running the AC 24/365.